Scott Pioli; General Manager or Genuine Mastermind
The 2012 NFL Off-Season is in full swing; Franchise Tags, Combine Workouts, Free Agents and the NFL Draft are all in effect or just round the corner. The organization that is the Kansas City Chiefs have changed drastically since the last snap from the season. Official coaching staff changes were the only dominating headlines for the last month or so that didn't include some sort of speculation. We have already had one player related change to the 2012 Kansas City Chiefs this week and more are on the way. Every personnel move that the Chiefs have made and are to make comes down to one man. This is a look at GM Scott Pioli;
Scott Pioli signed on with the Kansas City Chiefs on January 13th 2009 so any personnel transactions before that point are mute to this posting. Below I have a listing of the important transactions that Pioli had a hand in during his time here. I have put current starting players or those who IMO could be quality starters in bold.
2009
Patrick Surtain (CB) cut.
Damon Huard (QB) cut.
Donnie Edwards (LB) cut.
Matt Cassel (QB) traded (w/mike vrabel for 2009 2nd-round pick).
Jon McGraw (S) re-signed/unrestricted free agent.
Corey Mays (LB) signed/unrestricted free agent.
Zach Thomas (LB) signed/unrestricted free agent (one-year contract).
Rudy Niswanger (C) signed.
Jarrad Page (S) re-signed/restricted free agent.
Ryan Succop (K) signed/draft choice.
Matt Cassel (QB) signed (six-year contract).
Tyson Jackson (DE) signed/draft choice (five-year contract).
Zach Thomas (LB) cut.
Bernard Pollard (S) cut
Larry Johnson (RB) suspended (1 game (conduct detrimental to team)).
Chris Chambers (WR) acquired from waivers.
Larry Johnson (RB) suspension lifted.
Larry Johnson (RB) cut.
2009 Recap: Out with the old and ineffective in with the new and (at the time) promising. Patrick Surtain, Donnie Edwards and Damon Huard were all cut within a month of S. Pioli's arrival in KC. Four days later he brought Matt Cassel and Mike Vrabel to KC and all it cost was a 2nd Rd pick. Pioli went on to bring in more locker room leadership with veteran LB Zach Thomas. To end 2009 he also had to deal with HB Larry Johnson, who he cut on November 9th.
2010
Tyler Palko (QB) signed.
Mike Vrabel (LB) re-signed.
Jackie Battle (RB) re-signed/unrestricted free agent.
Chris Chambers (WR) re-signed/unrestricted free agent (three-year contract).
Thomas Jones (RB) signed (two-year contract).
Shaun Smith (DT) signed/unrestricted free agent.
Casey Wiegmann (C) signed (one-year contract).
Ryan Lilja (G) signed.
Derrick Johnson (LB) re-signed/restricted free agent (one-year contract).
Andy Studebaker (LB) re-signed/exclusive rights free agent.
Brodie Croyle (QB) re-signed/restricted free agent (one-year contract)
Kendrick Lewis (S) signed/draft choice (multi-year contract).
Tony Moeaki (TE) signed/draft choice (four-year contract)
Dexter McCluster (WR) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Javier Arenas (CB) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Jon Asamoah (G) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Eric Berry (S) signed/draft choice (five-year contract).
Jarrad Page (S) re-signed/restricted free agent (one-year contract).
Derrick Johnson (LB) signed (five-year extension (through 2015)).
Jamaal Charles (RB) signed (five-year extension (through 2015)).
2010 Recap: During this year S. Pioli was able to resign a lot of talent and had one of the best draft classes in KC history. Six KC starters were either resigned or drafted to the team. Vrabel was also brought back to mentor for another year.
2011
Tamba Hali (LB) Designated franchise player.
Rodney Hudson (C) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Allen Bailey (DE) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Ricky Stanzi (QB) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Jalil Brown (CB) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Shane Bannon (RB) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Jerrell Powe (NT) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Jonathan Baldwin (WR) signed/draft choice (four-year contract (fifth-year option)).
Jackie Battle (RB) re-signed/unrestricted free agent.
Steve Breaston (WR) signed/unrestricted free agent (five-year contract).
Casey Wiegmann (C) re-signed/unrestricted free agent.
Kelly Gregg (DT) signed/unrestricted free agent.
Wallace Gilberry (DE) re-signed/restricted free agent.
Barry Richardson (T) re-signed/restricted free agent (one-year contract).
Brandon Siler (LB) signed/unrestricted free agent.
Le'Ron McClain (RB) signed/unrestricted free agent (one-year contract).
Justin Houston (LB) signed/draft choice (four-year contract).
Sabby Piscitelli (S) signed/unrestricted free agent.
Brandon Carr (CB) re-signed/restricted free agent (one-year contract).
Tamba Hali (LB) re-signed/restricted free agent (five-year contract).
Jared Gaither (T) signed/unrestricted free agent.
Kyle Orton (QB) acquired from waivers.
Jared Gaither (T) cut.
Ryan Succop (K) signed (five-year extension (through 2016)).
2011 Recap: Another year seeing talented starters resigned (Carr, Hali and Succop). The draft class wasn't as impressive and a few questionable players were taken (Houston and Powe). QB Ricky Stanzi (who IMO could be a future starting QB) was brought in as well was Jerrell Powe, both of which could develop into quality players.
2012
Kyle McCarthy (S) signed.
Stanford Routt (CB) signed.
2012 Recap: So far not too much, only Stanford Routt signing stands out. If B. Carr walks in Free Agency Routt will be a solid #2 to replace him.
From what I can see S. Pioli's plan was/is somewhere around;
1 - Cut the old/ineffective
2 - Youth movement/Leadership & Mentors
3 - Keep young talented players with long term contracts (if beneficial to the team)
4 - Only after the core of the roster is set take small calculated risks with more payoff than cost
5 - Fill holes
In closing; Scott Pioli is doing a DAM GOOD JOB.
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My Opinions of the near future;
1 - Matt Cassel can lead this team deep into the playoffs (if Trent Dilfer could why not Cassel). With a steady Offensive Coordinator, a capable Offensive Line and his current weapons Matt Cassel will be just fine.
1a - We have a QB on our roster that can be a FRANCHISE QB. Ricky Stanzi is sitting on the bench learning, not only what to do but what not to do. KC's own coaching staff have praised his abilities and have hinted to his capabilities. As long as KC does not rush him into the starting roll, KC will be set at this position for the future.
2 - The Defense is a NT from being ELITE. If we were to bring in a quality NT (Paul Soliai) that could command a double team the effects spread through G. Dorsey and T. Jackson to our OLBs T. Hali and J. Houston. One reason our pass rush was less effective is because our D line was being blocked one on one and that left 2 - 3 (depending on our defensive set) offensive linemen to pick up our linebackers. With a NT to command a double team that leaves 1 sometimes 2 blockers to stop T. Hali and J. Houston....I love those odds.
3 - The KC Chiefs IMO will draft 2 offensive linemen this year. I believe that we will take G David DeCastro (Stanford) in the first if he is available, and if he is gone then we will take the best OT available. In the 2nd round I see OT Zebrie Sanders (FSU) headed to KC. If we take a OT in the first round look for this pick to be a BPA in either a ILB, DE or HB.
4 - A healthy KC Chiefs squad will win the 2012 AFC West. Nothing other to say about this....it will happen.
5 - KC fans will enjoy at least two playoff games this season. Wildcard, Divisional or the AFC Championship I don't know how it will play out but there will be at least to games.
6 - With quick growth of rookies and 2nd year players, continued development on the defensive side and a healthy season the KC Chiefs will be AFC favorites by the 3rd Quarter of this season.
Everyone has their opinions, all of which are deserved. That is right......everyone deserves to have their own opinions. However KC Fans need to remember a few things;
- We are not in the business of running a NFL team. We all have tunnel vision when it comes to the KC Chiefs. We all only care about keeping the team exciting and winning. The guy that is getting paid to ensure that this happens is also getting paid to make sure it continues to happen year in and year out.
- In order to complete a NFL contract it takes two parties. The NFL team has the obligation to attempt to sign/resign players that fit their schemes and that will better their team. The NFL player has the obligation to do what he feels right based on his own situation. Just because we may fail or take a long time signing/resigning a player does not indicate laziness or lack of respect/effort on part of the team. It could simply be that the targeted player decided to say no.
- This team is young, talented and hungry. This team has a few holes that once plugged will form it into a constant playoff team. One thing that this team does need that it can't do too much to provide is a POSITIVE FAN BASE. Negative "attacks" towards players, coaches or office personnel are useless and IMO just wrong. We as the fans have no idea of what goes on beyond what microphones and cameras give us clues to.
- Just my thoughts.......
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
DIsingenuous Mastermind?
If it wasn’t for the accursed paycheck, would I really imprison myself in this dungeon of the human soul?
by electriclight on Feb 22, 2012 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
He had me at:
Tyler Palko (QB) signed.
Meh...
I don't only want to stand out here when we get our asses kicked... I like to stand out here when we kick somebody else's ass... Big Win, Big Win ~ Todd Haley
@w_a_watts
by Chief-blinders-on on Feb 22, 2012 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
Till we win a playoff game Peterson>Pioli.
& its not even close.. Spending to the cap & trading up for RG3 would be genius! Signing a healthy Peyton Manning,bowe,and soliai would be genius! Sending cassel,orton,moore, or henne out there NOT SO GENIUS! F what this guy did in New England. This is Kansas City baby! Theres no bellichek(romeo will work)& no Brady to save his ass. This team takes me back to the early 90s. Do we take will shields in the 1st and ride with bono, or trade up for Steve Young? Montana is avalible as a free agent,but he might get hurt in the championship game.. No qb,no ring…& it dosent take a mastermind to figure that out. Make it happen Pioli. NO EXCUSES!
GIVE JAMAAL THE DAMN BALL!!!!!
by chief913-816 on Feb 22, 2012 1:44 AM CST via mobile reply actions
If trent dilfer, why not matt cassel?
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CassMa00/gamelog/2010/
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CassMa00/gamelog/2011/
The first is the 2010 game log for Matt Cassel. The second is his 2011 game log.
And the worst part is that he is even worse than his stats show him to be. I honestly cannot say he does anything well as a QB except his toughness and his leadership that is wearing off with every poor performance.
ummm because
Cassel doesn’t have the greatest defense of all time that is why. By the way, look at what the Ravens were before Dilfer started. They were nothing offensivley. Dilfer only started 8 games and went 7-1. Lets not let sports bar myths rule the day
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:11 AM CST up reply actions
Well
all i was saying was that Matt Cassel is a terrible quarterback too. Cassel is better than Dilfer who is a historically terrible qb. That does not say much imo
Does Cassel have the greatest defense of all time?
Does he have Priest Holmes and Jamal lewis in the same backfield? no and no. For people who think Dilfer sucks, look at the numbers before he started with Tony Banks, the ravens weren’t winning the SB with Banks I guarantee that
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:24 AM CST up reply actions
So
What exactly are you arguing? I already think Dilfer is one of the worst QBs in the history of the NFL. I also said Dilfer is a worse QB than Cassel.
But that is not saying much because you could claim any QB is a better player than Dilfer. There is no way Cassel can win against 2 or 3 AFC teams (Pats, Steelers, Ravens) then beat an NFC team (Packers or 49rs) straight against teams that start Brady, Roethlisberger, Flacco, and Rodgers.
Stanzi
is a career backup at best. It cracks me up that any QB that has not played enough games for us to see his flaws gets dubbed a starter or franchise QB by half the people on here. Cassel gets lambasted, while Kyle Orton, who is very nearly his twin, is seen as the savior, or at least someone to pass the torch to Stanzi, who must be the long term savior because he is young and hasn’t screwed up yet. I would be beyond shocked if Stanzi has a career as productive as Cassel’s or Orton’s, and I would certainly be happy to lay money against it.
In 2008 there was a deluge of Tyler Thigpen as the QB of the future posts, while he was on his way to a 1-10 record as a starter. He was one of the guys Pioli cut loose in 2009, (not mentioned) and has thrown 78 passes in 3 years since, for a 59.9 QB rating.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
The allure of the unknown vs. the underwhelming and effective known gets the best of all us
Why do you think the draft is so big for fans?
While we can debate up and down Cassel compared to Orton, one thing that I feel is the most significant difference between them (and I haven’t done any research on this, so hopefully I’m officially right): Time of Possession.
While Orton didn’t score a ton of points for us in 3 games, my naked eye tells me he kept the offense on the field longer on average than both Cassel and Palko did as the starters. That is the difference between a fresh, top ten defense, and a worn out, middle of the pack, at best, defense.
I feel Orton helps the overall team more, and I feel Cassel has become a detriment to it
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 2:53 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
That should have been underwhelming and INEFFECTIVE
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 2:58 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Orton offered nothing but a bunch of inflated stats
This isn’t fantasy football. The most passing yards don’t win a game, the most points do. Orton is a jag that hasn’t done anything in the NFL so far
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:30 AM CST up reply actions
I really hope that 1979 on the end of your screen name isn't the year you were born
Because your arguments sound like they are coming from a 10 year old
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 3:39 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I agree with saints_chiefsfan1979...Orton is not a great (or even good) QB.
At his best he is a game manager and a worst he is the guy that was cut by the Donkeys after starting 2011 with a 1-4 record. One of the main reasons everyone is riding the Tebow bandwagon is because Orton played SO bad before Tebow got the chance to start, that once Tebow was given the reins, he look like the second coming of JC himself.
by DivineGrace on Feb 22, 2012 4:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for supplying an argument that consisted of more than just "Orton is a jag"
I’m not saying Orton is the end all here, and im not arguing he is better or worse than Cassel in whatever quantifiable medium that can be concocted. I’m saying from my untrained eye, it seems like our time of possession increased from Cassel to Orton, which helps the defense more than can be described here.
TOP helps more of the team overall and Orton gives us that more than Cassel did this season, in a small sample size, im fairly certain
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 6:01 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ah, but there were other variables, so it is difficult to tell whether the change from Cassel to Orton was the sole (or even the primary) cause of the increased TOP
The gameplans and playcalling were quite different in the post-Haley era…
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
Was there an increase in our running efficiency the last 3 games compared to the rest of the games?
Did we get better running the ball with Orton vs Cassel?
Again, without any research, my game watching memory tells me no. So unless we called more run plays and they netted more yardage, I don’t see how the game plans or play calling differences would not give more positivity to Orton over Cassel
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 6:16 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
We probably used an actual screen (not that WR nonsense) like six times before Haley was fired
and we tore Green Bay a new one with our screens in that game.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 22, 2012 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
There was one team that played vs Orton and Cassel for the whole game...Oakland.
TOP vs Oakland with Cassel: 33:37
TOP vs Oakland with Orton: 32:39
Cassel has lead 2 different teams (including a gawd aweful 2-14 Chiefs) to 10+ win seasons, leading our Chiefs who were a combined 6-26 in their last 2 season to the playoffs.
Orton has never won 10 games in a season and never been the the playoffs.
Cassel is better than Orton and it isn’t even close.
by DivineGrace on Feb 22, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL, yes, a great way to compare when in the first game vs Oakland they had basically no QB
Boller in the first half and Palmer (who’d been off the couch for a whole 2 days) in the second half …
and that’s your main basis for comparison?
sorry, overruled on this one, Grace
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Cassel has lead 2 different teams (including a gawd aweful 2-14 Chiefs) to 10+ win seasons, leading our Chiefs who were a combined 6-26 in their last 2 season to the playoffs.
1) Cassel’s first year we went 4-12. So he joined a team that had been 2-14, and the team went 4-12, not 10-6.
2) The 10-6 team featured multiple players that had developed and/or were in a better position to be impact players (as opposed to rookies in 2008)
3) To say Cassel “led” the team while riding on the back of the best rushing combo in football is a gross exaggeration.
4) Cassel took over QB for a team that had DECIMATED everyone and fallen an eyelash short of 19-0… and that team still couldn’t make the playoffs with him at the helm.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 22, 2012 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
That rushing combo that he was riding on the back of
didn’t fare so well in San Diego without him. Yet, they did pretty well when he returned the next week in St. Louis.
It’s no greater exaggeration to claim that Cassel led the team than it is to claim that Brady led the Patriots or that Rodgers led the Packers.
There were games in which the rushing combo didn't do so well with him as well
Which would indicate it had to do with more than the presence/absence of Cassel.
As far as the second statement… I don’t know if I have a response to that.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
It's rarely as simple as quarterback performance.
That’s why I’m skeptical that replacing Cassel, who is an average quarterback, is going to make everything better. Improving the O-line is much more important, and will probably result in another above average performance from Cassel. Manning just proved that it doesn’t take an elite, or even top-tier, quarterback to win the SB. An above average quarterback is sufficient with the right team.
There’s a short list of quarterbacks available that offer reasonable potential to be a significant improvement over Cassel, and Orton isn’t on it.
by Jaywalk3r on Feb 22, 2012 2:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's often as simple as QB performance
And a great QB can overcome mediocre line play much more than a great line can overcome mediocre QB play.
For example, compare the Packers and the Browns. The Browns have THE best LT in football, and a top 3 center in Mack. The Packers don’t have a single “good” offensive lineman. Yet their offense is far superior to CLE’s.
To say that O-line is more important than QB is to ignore the current trend in the NFL. Look at the QB’s that have played in and won the SB the last 5-6 years. If Eli (a top 10 QB) is your example of how it doesn’t take elite, then God help us. Because Cassel is half the QB Eli is.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Two great lineman do not make a great O-line.
It just takes one weak link to make a line weak and exploitable. Add a quarterback whose best year rendered a passer rating nearly ten points below league average, and one doesn’t expect great things from the 2011 Browns.
In 2010, Cassel had a slightly better rating than Eli Manning had in 2011. If only the line had consistently given him time to throw against Baltimore …
If we bring in another quarterback without improving our O-line, we’ll be hearing the same complaints about how bad the new quarterback is and what a big mistake it was to pay them so much money to come to KC and suck.
by Jaywalk3r on Feb 22, 2012 6:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sigh...
Why, oh why, did our offensive line look significantly better once we had an average QB on the field?
Go re-watch the last three games of the season. Then go back and watch three Cassl games. The man creates pressure.
Or if you’d rather not do the legwork, take a look at ProFootballFocus, which actually looks at stats like pressures and hits.
Cassel creates more pressure than should actually exist, which makes our entire line look worse than it is.
B-Rich needs to be replaced badly, but other than that our line wasn’t nearly as bad as Cassel and Palko made it look.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Cassel is better than Orton and it isn’t even close.
I’m with you on this. We need to upgrade at QB, but I don’t see Orton as that guy.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 22, 2012 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
so now were harping on semantics here
Orton is just a guy. Sorry if that terminology offends you. He is on his 3rd team in 5 years and has but up average stats. All this yardage he threw for the last 3 games, didn’t put anymore points on the board than Cassel did. Those last 3 games had a lot more to do with this defense playing lights out, than anything Orton did on the field
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
Time of possession, fewer 3 and outs
One could argue those were important factors in the 2 wins.
Isn’t it odd, how in 3 years with Cassel we managed to beat 1 playoff team, then in 3 weeks with Orton we beat two?
Or would you chalk that up to RAC being HC?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Denver was only a playoff team because the AFC West sucked so badly in 2011.
On the other hand, Denver did make the playoffs with a well below average quarterback.
I chalk those wins on the defense playing out of there mind
Orton managed the game. And that is all he is, a game manager
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 6:35 PM CST up reply actions
At least
he is accurate with his throws. At least he has some pocket awareness. And at least he can convert on 3rd downs and have long drives.
At least
he is accurate with his throws. At least he has some pocket awareness. And at least he can convert on 3rd downs and have long drives.
Orton has Cassel on the first point. Cassel won’t ever be as accurate at 20+ yards as Orton is…
Cassel’s pocket awareness has improved each season in KC. Does it still need work? Yes. Was it considerably better in the middle of 2011 than at the beginning of 2009? Yes.
If you don’t think Cassel can convert on third down and have long drives you may have missed a lot of the 2010 season.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 22, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
wtf
when was this? Compared to real NFL QBs, he looks like a huge pile of crap
You aren't actually taking this seriously
Do you not remember any of our big wins in 2011? San Fran, Seattle, the Titans?
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
obviously, because Tebow has the most AMAZING stats for 2011 ... high Comp %, many, many TDs and all those Yards Passing ... right?
Orton played SO bad before Tebow got the chance to start, that once Tebow was given the reins, he look like the second coming of JC himself
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
no worries... America loves stories like Tebow...
but what they love even more than that is the fall from grace…
And that is what they are going to get this next season….
by Hateraide on Feb 22, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I still can't get over the fact that
we LOST to Tebow, and he had TWO STINKING COMPLETIONS the whole game. How do you lose to a guy who has two completions? The announcers were even talking about it…only happened once before, I think…
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Feb 22, 2012 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
That's a great point
the offense looked much more fluid/efficient with Orton for sure.
Dx3: Draft David DeCastro
this
Perhaps Orton gave the offense a boost. But the playcalling was quite different, so it is difficult to tell how much if any Orton improved the offense after Haley was fired.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
You just name the wager...
and sit back and watch Stanzi lead the Chiefs to the first playoff win in a very long time. Then you can pay me.
It is time to anoint the Stanzi. He is The One.
wow .. talk a Pioligist puff piece
Pioli has done no wrong…. ok sure.. how come most of the elite talent on this team came from Herm / Peterson?
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:08 AM CST reply actions
So he is at fault for inheriting the team he did?
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 3:11 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ya he inherited a horrible team
With 31 guys still on an NFL roster not to mention 19 with this team.. Charles , DJ, Hali, Flowers, Bowe ,Albert,Carr , Waters, Dorsey.. But you are so right. He had no talent at all
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:17 AM CST up reply actions
You going to try to answer the question, or avoid it?
Is he at fault for inheriting the team that he did in 2009?
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 3:22 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I answered that
31 guys still on an NFL roster when he got here. Am I going to cry that he let a lot of those guys go? that is his problem
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:25 AM CST up reply actions
You are clearly mousing the point
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 3:32 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Damn phone
You are clearly missing the point
The article states has done well in his time here.
Your rebuttal was “look at the team he inherited”, like it’s some kind if negative on Pioli that the team had who it had when he got here. So again, should that really be a negative on Pioli that he inherited a decent group of players?
It’s not like he hasn’t added his own group of decent players, is it?
What point are you trying to prove? That since a good portion of the team’s top players weren’t drafted by Pioli, he gets absolutely no credit for where this team is at cogently?
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 3:36 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
cogently currently
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 3:37 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I think the
point he is trying to make is this:
When you look at the core of our team, probably 8 of our 11 best players ( the top half of our starters) at the end of 2011 were drafted prior to Pioli getting here, so the best of our core starters came mostly from the previous era.
Jamaal Charles, Derrick Johnson, Tamba Hali, Brandon Flowers, Brandon Carr, Dwayne Bowe, Brandon Albert, and Glenn Dorsey. (I will not be counting a punter in the top 11, but Colquitt was already here as well)
The 3 Pioli guys who would crack the top 11 are Eric Berry, Tyson Jackson, and whichever QB you would like to put in to round out the list, and you could certainly argue that TJ and the QB are 2 of the bottom 3.
So I think his point is that most of the best players on our current team after 3+ years of Pioli were already here, and if Pioli had done a better job, there would be more than 3 of his guys in the top 11.
I think you could argue that other than improving the QB position, (remember how bad that was when he got here) drafting Eric Berry, and being somewhat vindicated by TJ this year, he has basically filled out the starting roster of a mediocre team, and has not even adequately addressed the depth (which last year was a prime example of the lack of depth) He has ridden the rise of players drafted by Edwards and Peterson, as they matured and improved, so did the team.
His first pick as head coach was fired as well, so as far as I am concerned, this is a pivotal year for him. He must acquire more talent himself, and RAC must be a success, or I think we are looking at a big name GM hire who just didn’t get it done.
Genius? Not so far. He is closer to the hot seat than the genius title.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
by KHAZAD on Feb 22, 2012 4:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
But you are ignoring the point of the post
Look at the lists provided: it shows getting rid of bad players, extending good players. Nothing in this article states that Pioli is directly responsible for getting these players on the team, just keeping or getting rid of them.
My point to saints was that he is twisting around the whole point of the post just to state that Pioli had nothing to do with getting these players, and that is not at all what the author said.
He is responsible for keeping this team and it’s most important players together thus far and while Haley was a mistake, you can’t deny credit to him for getting DJ, Jamaal, and Tamba to become 3 of the top players in the league at their positions.
Also, we can’t conveniently ignore the other quality, starting players that Pioli has brought in
Succop
Arenas
Lewis
Lilja
Breaston
Mcclain
Gaither
Houston
Hudson
Wiegmann
I think you get the point. Sure, he inherited the bulk of his “star” players, but again, it really has nothing to do with the point of the post, nor should it be considered a fault of Pioli’s
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 5:55 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 4 recs
The point of the post
is that he is a “genuine mastermind”. I don’t think the post proves the point at all. I think you could look at any GM’s record over the last 3 years and see that he has cut some bad players and extended some good ones.
Is it Pioli’s fault that he inherited good players? No. But the fact that he has mixed in very few standout players with the ones he inherited is his fault. The fact that after three years we had a paper thin team with no depth, which was definitely exposed in 2011, I would consider a fault. Whether Haley was a bad hire, or a decent hire that Pioli could not get along with, that is on Pioli as well.
He has brought in zero players who have been voted to the pro bowl, although Cassel (who you want to replace with a mediocre option) and Berry (a 5th pick overall) were added as substitutes when other players canceled. He has cut a guy (Waters, who was not mentioned above) who was voted in with another team.
Your list above is an example of mediocrity. You have a kicker, a role player, a few workmanlike, but not outstanding starters, a couple of decent older stopgap measures who will likely be replaced next year, a couple of guys who have not done anything yet, and a guy who had zero production and was cut. Altogether he has not added as many standout players in his time here as the team added in the 2008 draft alone.
I got the point of the post, I just disagree with it. To me the next two years are make or break for Pioli. His second coach must be successful, more of his drafted players must develop into standouts, he must add more good talent through the draft and free agency, and certainly must address the criminal lack of depth on this team.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
by KHAZAD on Feb 22, 2012 2:04 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
the point is was making
Is that this team had talent(elite talent) on this team when Pioli took over. This idea that this team was a barron wasteland of talent when Pioli arrived , is just a sports bar myth. Something that gets repeated adnausum in the hopes of making it true.
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
The talent level is considerably HIGHER now, though, is it not?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Sure
But not by a mile
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 6:36 PM CST up reply actions
you're high
Teams all over the league are chomping at the bit to get some of our free agents. 4 years ago when we cut players they often went unsigned…
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
and those free agents
came from Peterson/herm
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 23, 2012 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
so what?
You said the talent level wasn’t much higher. In 2008 or 2009 I can think of a single guy the Chiefs had who entered free agency as one of the top players available at his position.
Carr is the best CB in FA this year…and Bowe is right up there among the WR’s.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
Dude its just
not worth arguing with people who actually think Cassel is a viable starter.
you aren't arguing
Arguments consist of well articulated and supported opinions
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
thank you
Yes, that is what I was trying to say. It was late and I didn’t feel like arguing . But , you have articulated my point better than I did and I thank you for that
'' if you’re expecting something to look real fancy or nice, I don’t think that’s what you’re going to see here with this Chiefs team'', Todd Haley
Aint that the truth
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 22, 2012 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
it is important to note
that few of those top players started to come around until after the pioli era started. JC was just a backup, DJ was inconsistent at best, Tamba was a 4-3 defensive end and not nearly as effective as he is now, carr was not very good at all, bowe had not yet broken out and was somewhat of a diva, everyone wanted to move albert inside, and dorsey was an unknown. yes those guys are good now, but part of pioli’s plans have always included developing from within. do you think that herm and peterson would’ve developed those guys as well as pioli and company have? it is speculation on my part, but there isn’t anything to indicate that herm and co were good at developing players. hell, herm only looked good because of LJ, who was drafted by vermil.
by Brett Chamberlain on Feb 22, 2012 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Some decent points there
It’s not like JC circa 2008 looked anything like JC circa 2010.
And Hali circa 2008 had what, 2 sacks? 3?
Carr was a terrible CB his first year.
DJ was incredibly (as you said) inconsistent.
A lot of that talent didn’t develop into good players until after 2009.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Thanks for the recap.
"We couldn't beat the Chiefs, but we damn near killed their horse"
John Madden 1975 Chiefs-42 Raiders-10
I can't argue with that
but 5 of those players were rookies in 2008. (In retrospect the 2008 draft was probably better than the much hyped 2010 draft.)
Pioli does not have a hand in developing talent. (Neither did Peterson) You can give some credit to Haley and his staff, and some credit to drafting a group of very talented players, some of whom played like rookies their first year.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
basically my point was
1. pioli hired the people who developed those players, so he did have somewhat of a hand in it (indirectly)
2. pioli decided that even though they were not performing like superstars then, he locked them up longer term (dude had foresight)
3. in 2008, you could’ve easily said that all those players were no good. that would’ve been an unfair assessment when they were only a few years pro. similarly, it is still premature to evaluate all of pioli’s players and say that he has had bad drafts, because his players just are not old enough to evaluate yet.
having said that, i will be the first to admit that the 2009 draft was not our best work overall. but even so, TJax looks like a possible 10 year starter and Succop has been very solid. pioli has picked it up since then and it was pretty well known that he did not have all his own scouting guys in place in 2009 and was working with a makeshift staff. once he got his people together, he has had back to back stellar drafts.
by Brett Chamberlain on Feb 22, 2012 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
I answered that
31 guys still on an NFL roster when he got here. Am I going to cry that he let a lot of those guys go? that is his problem
Translation – I’m losing the argument, so I’ll resort to fallacy.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
It was late. Im going to chalk it up to drunk blogging
Never a good bedfellow with arguing a point on said blog
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 22, 2012 6:18 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
LOL
or on any blog…or actually involved in any argument whatsoever…
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 22, 2012 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
As mentioned by others;
The posting isn’t a gauge of the team before Poili got here. More of a “what has he done with it”. Until the possibility of B Carr, he has resigned our young talent and drafted rather well.
Fanship Established: At Birth
by Moebuis_34 on Feb 22, 2012 8:46 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Hasn't Pioli done more with that "elite" talent than Herm/Peterson?
Dx3: Draft David DeCastro
by shotty on Feb 22, 2012 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
no doubt he's added to it, and by adding talent that's better than what WAS her (aside from those elite) then yes, automatically makes even the elite better
but then too, almost anyone could have added more talent than was here at the end of 2008 and made those elite players look better … that in itself doesn’t make Pioli or anyone else a “mastermind”
and think about when some of those guys were drafted … so when they were 1st and 2nd yr players they didn’t look as good as they do now, and your point?
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
My point dosn't involve masterminding or masterblastering
or masterbai…..anyway, speaking in terms of player improvement, I think its more than safe to say DJ and Hali have truly blossomed under Romeo Crennel. That’s the point? Only two guys? Yep, that’s my point. Only two guys. But those two guys are really really good, whereas before, they were struggling to find their own.
Pioli brought in Crennel, and Crennel has given them the path to success. Not a mastermind move, not hardly, but one that definitely is worth noting IMO.
Dx3: Draft David DeCastro
Do you really think Houston was a questionable draft pick?
or even Powe? Both were considered “Steals” at the time.
a few questionable players were taken (Houston and Powe
If it wasn’t for the accursed paycheck, would I really imprison myself in this dungeon of the human soul?
I absolutely agree that Houston was a steal.
Power would still needs to prove himself. I called both questionable only due to off the field concerns before the draft. Houston with the failed drug test and Power due to him being a fairly large project player.
Fanship Established: At Birth
by Moebuis_34 on Feb 22, 2012 8:42 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Define the phrase 'real QB'
Cassel is a real entity (or at least as real as all other phenomena appear to be)
He plays QB
So he is real. And he is a QB. If there is some other attribute one must possess to qualify as a ‘real QB’ please explain…
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 22, 2012 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
You completely lost me at #1. As for Pioli being a mastermind, only time will tell. Ill give him one more year.
" The world is Yours"
Ill [sic] give him one more year.
I don’t think his status as general manager is in anyway contingent on you or your opinion…I could be wrong.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 22, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
Luckily, Pioli's tenure in KC
is not up to you.
It is time to anoint the Stanzi. He is The One.
by neiowakcfan on Feb 22, 2012 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
A billion dollar company, + Pioli =
an entertaining season!
KC CHIEFS, $1,000,000,000+ and growing !
I agree that Pioli seems to have a functional plan in place
and also agree that we as fans, jump to conclusions or/and criticize before even knowing the whole story. There is a huge list of players around the league that remain in the “not yet to be re-signed” category, which means it is the norm. Yet, since Carr and Bowe are not re-signed yet, I’ve heard everything from Carr/Bowe doesnt want to be in KC, Clark/Pioli are cheap because they dont want to offer him a contract,yada yada yada.
I have even heard people give out numbers as if they know what contract has been offered to Carr. And just to be clear, just because we think Carr getting a deal similar to Flowers is sufficient enough, doesn’t mean Carr’s agent isn’t asking for more then that. It also doesn’t mean that Clark/Pioli want to pay a contract that is equal to Flowers.
As far as people knocking Pioli for signing Routt, that is just ridiculous. Since we have NO clue as to what is going on with Carr’s contract situation, we can’t really say if this is Pioli giving up on re-signing Carr or if he is just making sure that we have all our bases covered in case a deal doesnt get struck. You can’t just look at the fact that the Chiefs have plenty of money to spend so should feel free to pay a player way more then they are worth (if that is what is going on). Raiders do that and they are in a very shitty position this year. In fact, they are more then likely going to lose a few more starters.
I actually read an article through yahoo sports on Routt and it actually paints a different picture of the guy we all were sceptical about. Talks a lot of how the raiders changed defensive schemes and it affected more than Routt. Also showed how the guy has a great attitude.
As far as Cassel goes, I feel we have rode that pony for too long now. This will be one move that I can see having people love or hate Pioli. If he decides to roll with Cassel, maybe he sees something nobody else does. But if that plan backfires on him, I can see people jumping his shit and for good reason. The fact though is, nobody is perfect and so far Pioli has made more correct choices than wrong ones. No reason to lose believe yet.
by TheScreenName on Feb 22, 2012 12:01 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Where is the 0 vote?
Why are people labled as + or -? Some people on AP try,,,try,,,to be realists. The jury isn’t even out on Pioli yet, but it is getting time for the final arguments. He will only be as good as those around him, starting at the top. Can he get the right people beneath him? So far he has failed..yes, failed…I’m sure he would even agree to that….but guess what? So does 31 other GM’s every year. Why is it when you mention something bad about a Chief it is veiwed as “voodoo”? Last time I checked the other teams are getting paid too. We all make mistakes and get “beat”. Get up. Push on. Chiefs Will.
Great post!
I think that everything you have is on point have a feeling about stanzi but still not that overall 5 tool QB in which I would love our QB to be saying that we are so close but still need that QB in RG3 imo
by kcchiefs2782 on Feb 22, 2012 3:56 PM CST via Android app reply actions
if Pioli finds a way to keep both Carr and Bowe, brings in Orton or someone as a better QB than Cassel and has a truly great draft ...
then yes, he would probably hit “mastermind” status in my estimation
as of right now I’m not counting on any of that happening
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Agree mastermind is a little over the top
but if Carr doesnt get re-signed, how can we assume its on Pioli? How do we know he offered Carr money equal to Flowers contract and Carr wanted more? What if Carrs agent wasnt budging at all from a ridiculous contract and Pioli had no choice but to go with Routt.?
Of course it could go down that path where Pioli was just being cheap. But until that comes out, I dont think its fair to blame Pioli for that, yet.(yet) YET….
by TheScreenName on Feb 22, 2012 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
I believe mastermind fits him
The draft trade is just one of the many that backs that up. Baldwin and Houston for Phil Taylor. Pretty damn good trade
Dexter McCluster
eh?
If he can win superbowls with the chiefs like he did with NE, I think mastermind status is worthy.. Way strong word
by TheScreenName on Feb 22, 2012 9:29 PM CST up reply actions
Do we want Orton or do we want someone better than Cassel?
We can’t have it both ways.
by Jaywalk3r on Feb 22, 2012 6:11 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

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