Breaking Down the Chiefs: Tyson Jackson
We've been here before, even though it seems like forever ago. In case you don't remember me, I'm MNchiefsfan, and I talk about the Chiefs sometimes
I'm going to cover a LOT of territory here, so no time for a decent intro (or even really an intro. I'm going to do more like an "in"). How do bullet points grab you?
- I'm breaking down some Chiefs players this offseason
- I'm doing this because before we really know what we "need" or what to expect next season, we need as much information as we can get on the guys we currently have playing for us.
- I base these breakdowns off basic stats, ProFootballFocus stats and game tape. A lot of game tape. At least a couple hundred snaps or I don't do the post (hence the amount of time between this post and the last one).
- I end each breakdown with a scale of 1 to 10 of "Replacement Need". 1 is a guy like DJ, who I wouldn't trade for anyone else in the league at his position. 10 Is a guy like... well, I don't want to hurt feelings. So I'll say it in code. 10 is like a guy whose name rhymes with Carry Prichardson (What do you mean my code sucks?).
- This is not for a more casual fan. This is long, in depth, and as detailed as I can possibly get. I'll try to lighten it up with a joke or two along the way, but this is for the hardcore fan that wants to know EXACTLY what T-Jax did this year. If that ain't you, move along (although I don't know how many fans like that are here on AP...)
Today's focus... Tyson Jackson. Yeah, we're going there. (h/t to Steve and Kalo for both helping me with my research process. You guys are men among boys. And h/t to NFL Rewind for allowing me to watch hundreds of snaps over and over. If you want to talk with authority about a player, you REALLY need to be able to do the legwork. All right, enough h/t love. Let's do this)
***** Late Addition: some have asked me to post a link to my breakdown on Dorsey. Find it here
First and foremost, let me kill an old argument (or at least wound it critically)I find very few arguments more ridiculous than the old, "he's terrible because he was taken too high. I expect more from a top 5 pick." That bugs me on many levels.
First, after a player has been in the league for 3 years, who gives a crap where he was taken in the draft? What matters is his production on the field. If a guy is producing for us, I don't take into account his draft position when I decide how I feel about him as a player. Because ALL that matters is what's on the field.
Second, using that argument leads people to not do real legwork, and pigeonhole a player in a certain light. Nothing's worse than willful ignorance.
Finally, the argument itself is insane. Does anyone here like Belcher better than DJ? I mean, Belcher was undrafted and is a "kinda OK" starter! All DJ does is dominate, but isn't that what a 1st round pick is SUPPOSED to do? Sounds crazy, right? Except it's the same logic used when criticizing T-Jax for his draft position rather than his play. So just to be clear, this is about Tyson Jackson as a 3-4 defensive end for our team, not Tyson Jackson as a 2009 draft pick.
So what do the basic stats tell us?
Let's make this quick, because basic stats don't mean much with 3-4 DE's. However, it's an encouraging start for T-Jax. He had the 2nd most tackles in the league at his position with 46 solo (behind Calais Campbell's 55). He also had 12 assisted tackles to bring his "total" up to 58 (again, second to everyone but Campbell, who had 62 total tackles). Not too shabby T-Jax.
The more depressing part? He had exactly 1 sack this year. That's just gross, as 20 other 3-4 DEs in the league had more. Yuck. Icky. Ew.
What do these stats tell us? Well, not much by themselves, honestly. They DO tell us that Tyson Jackson had a lot of tackles for a 3-4 DE, but woefully few sacks. So that's where we're at.
Now we've consumed the appetizer, let's get to the "meat"
What do PFF's in-depth stats tell us?
Short answer: a lot more. We'll do this in several Parts...
First of all, we see that T-Jax was second in the league at his position in total tackles despite having played fewer snaps than all but 1 other 3-4 DE that's in the top 10 in tackles. In fact, he played over 400 fewer snaps than Calais Campbell and 200 fewer snaps than J.J. Watt, the #1 and #3 tacklers in the league. That's both impressive and a little sad. Impressive because he was able to produce such a high number of tackles on fewer snaps, but sad because it shows he's a player with a limited role.
Next, we see that of his solo tackles, 40 of them were "stops." What's a stop, you ask? I'm glad you did! It is a "solo defensive tackle made which constitutes an offensive failure, including sacks." What does that mean in English? Think of it as a "stuff" where a couple of yards or less are allowed. And out of 46 solo tackles, T-Jax made a "stop" nearly 90% of the time.
This is valuable information because it offers an instant counter to this argument made by a person who doesn't do their homework before spouting off opinions...
"Yeah, T-Jax had a lot of tackles, but they were all 5 yards downfield after he got shoved out of the play."
Looking at the actual statistics, we see this is CLEARLY not the case. So next time someone attempts to throw that kind of misinformation out there, kindly point out to them that not only was T-Jax 2nd in the league in tackles, but he was 2nd in the league in "stops" as well. When they say, "what the hell is a stop?" you can just laugh at them and tell them to do a little more legwork before trying to act like they know something about T-Jax (moments like that are fun. No need to thank me for helping you achieve one. It's my job. Or volunteer duty. Or whatever it is a contributor here is supposed to do).
So where are we at? OK, still on PFF stats.
Next, we take a look at his overall "ratings" as a 3-4 defensive end. PFF creates these rankings based on watching every snap played. A player with a 0 rating is "average." A player above or below is above or below average (duh moment of this post).
There are 19 3-4 DE's in the league that PFF rates as "above average." Ranked number 11 is Tyson Jackson. Not bad, but hardly exceptional. So what about the details?
On the positive side, Jackson is ranked 6th in the league against the run. Excellent stuff, especially considering the number of double teams he receives (which I'll delve into later, in the "game film" section). On the negative side, he's in the bottom 10 in the league at rushing the passer.
Looking further at T-Jax's limitations when rushing the passer, we find that he had (in addition to his lone sack), 1 QB hit, 4 QB Pressures, and 2 batted passes. He was called upon to rush the passer on 225 plays. So in other words, when asked to rush the passer, Jackson (by PFF stats) made an impact play 3.5% of the time. Yikes.
So we see a similar pattern to what we saw with Glenn Dorsey in my last breakdown: Tyson Jackson is excellent against the run, and lousy when rushing the passer. However, there ARE differences. While Dorsey's "rating" of rushing the passer is a -10.7, T-Jax is sitting at -5.4. So while T-Jax is bad at rushing the passer, he's much closer to the "average" rating than Dorsey. Against the run it's a flipped script: Dorsey has a 16.1 rating and T-Jax has a 10.0 rating.
Additionally, the "impact play" numbers are different. While T-Jax's % of plays made when rushing the QB is certainly poor, it's 2% higher than Dorsey's. Maybe that's irrelevant to you, but to me an extra half dozen impact plays matter. You never know when a game will be won or lost on a single impact play.
(For the record, I know this is a post about Jackson and not Dorsey. However, given the two play the same position on our team and are somewhat similar players, the comparison becomes necessary when evaluating how badly we need one player vs. the other).
So we've gone about as far as we can based on PFF stats. We see that T-Jax make a ton of stops, is solid against the run, and bad at rushing the passer (though not quite terrible like Dorsey is). These are things you likely knew or at least suspected, but now at least you have some statistical validation for your views.
Now, it's time for the main course and the MOST important aspect of evaluating a player: game tape.
Now, I went back and forth between the idea of breaking down every single game or giving an overall impression. I chose the latter, because I believe it'll be less repetitious and let's face it, we're already at 1600 words here. You're welcome! So I'm going to do this in list form, with no general rhyme or reason with regards to the order.
-Just finishing the Detroit/Buffalo games. Let me tell you, those games were WAY more on our offense than our defense. And our secondary was worse than our line. Man those games sucked to watch again. Just disgusting stuff. I hope to never see the Chiefs dominated like that again. All right, back to T-Jax...
-It's fascinating watching T-Jax rush the QB. And I don't necessarily mean that in a good way. Whenever he simply gets his hands on the blocking lineman (or linemen, in some cases) and PUSHES, he's able to move towards the QB with simple brute strength. A much better bull rush than I expected, given how poorly he rates as a pass rusher. The problem? He doesn't go to the bull rush nearly often enough. He often tries to go outside as if he's Houston or Hali. The only problem is he's not even close to fast enough to get around a blocking lineman. He ran himself out of a lot of passing plays like this.
-A corollary to that last observation: T-Jax gets double teamed enough when rushing the passer to at least make a difference (as in, he pulls blockers away from other guys). It happens almost exclusively when he uses his bull rush and tries to force his way to the QB. When he does this, another lineman or RB often move move over to help out the guy T-Jax is matched up against. Again, he's GOT to use this more often. He gets more of a pass rush against double teams using this method than he does against a single blocker when trying to use "finesse."
-T-Jax is strong. And not just "bulky" strong the way Dorsey is. He's got incredibly strong arms. When he stands up and gets his hands on opposing linemen, he's consistently able to stand them up and hold the spot WHILE keeping his head up and looking for the runner. He does this very nearly as well when doubled as he does when singled. Very impressive. Kalo noticed something similar, and was kind enough to offer his thoughts:
"Watch his anchor and hand placement right off the line. You see Gregg and Dorsey bend backwards at the waist too often and fold back over their knees. This is due to lack of arm strength/length and them trying to compensate and get closer to the player(s) trying to block them. Tyson most of the time has an upright (but low) position, and he uses his arm strength/length to keep multiple guys at bay. He typically doesn't throw his body into a block until he recognizes where the play is going. He's getting very good at disengaging from a blocker when the play is away from him, and even better at throwing himself into a double team while moving laterally to form a gigantic wall and shut down the running lane." (Kalo quote)
-Quick side note... Chris Collinsworth is painful to listen to as an announcer. Sure, that's not about T-Jax, but it's worth noting. Does he have some football player's version of "little man syndrome?" Because I've never heard someone try so hard to sound old school and tough. I ended up muting the one game because I just couldn't take it anymore.
All right, let's take a break here for a second. Stand up, move around, stretch a little. Maybe go get a drink of water or something. Good. Ready for more film study? Great! And here we go...
-Here's a fascinating tidbit I found (with Kalo's help, and confirmed by what I saw): The Chiefs use T-Jax in coverage sometimes. I swear, they do! Well, ok, not TRADITIONAL coverage, no. But I saw on over a dozen plays T-Jax "jam" the TE or even (a few times) the RB as they were trying to get into their route. An interesting tactic, and extremely effective from what I saw: in the plays I saw it happen, not once did the TE/RB get into their route. I hope they incorporate that more next year (which they should, given T-Jax's limitations as a pass rusher and the trouble TE's give us).
-T-Jax's biggest weakness as a run defender is a tendency to get Too low and allow a lineman to take him out of the play by essentially "sprawling" on him in the same fashion an MMA fighter would to avoid a takedown. That's a problem, and one he needs to work on. I'd see it happen once or twice a game. It would hurt him when doubled as well, and the times I saw him get pancaked by doubles (it happened. Not often, but it happened) seemed to be a result of that kind of mistake.
-T-Jax sees quite a few double teams, relatively speaking. It's not every play, but it's pretty close to every other play. The bad news is he'll sometimes allow himself to get washed out by double teams. The good news is he generally doesn't, and can consistently (when he gets his hands up and on both linemen) keep both blockers at bay long enough to locate the play. Very encouraging, and a world of difference from the way I saw Dorsey handle double teams.
-Matt Moore TORE US UP. That's about all I got out of the Miami game. Maybe Brian Daboll will end up being a good hire? He sure schooled RAC in that game...
-That Broncos game still ticks me off. 2 passes completed and they win???? Sheesh. This game is commonly pointed to as proof that our run D can't get it done, so I watched every snap of this particular game. Here's an interesting tidbit: 50 of their rushing yards came on two plays, both of which were plays in which Moreno bounced to the outside (after having no room inside) and Studebaker failed to set the edge properly. I'm not gonna hammer Andy here, but crap those two runs hurt. Without those two runs (which were both COMPLETELY preventable) the Tebows average just a little over 3.5 YPC that game. Not nearly as bad as I thought it'd be, and T-Jax played a fine game (insert someone saying, "no way! Look at all those yards!" here. Seriously, go watch every snap, then get back to me. I'll be waiting for your apology).
-Another thing to note in the Denver game: those runs by Moreno were the end of Studebaker's time as SOLB. Houston replaced him, our run D tightened up, and Houston proceeded to take all but ONE defensive snap the remainder of the year. And after Houston was in, Denver stopped even trying to run at him and T-Jax. Which became a pattern as the season wore on. I'll again quote Kalo, who had something to say on that last point (By the way, if you don't know who Kalo is, he's a guy here who watches every defensive snap. Like, repeatedly. And also knows way more about defense than me or most other people I've spoken with on the subject). And I quote...
"You don't run over his side of the ball. Everyone starts trying to run over the right side of our defense. They run into Tyson and Houston a couple of times for little/no gain, and they bail on it because the weakside is an open door." (Kalo)
-This observation was confirmed by my study. Even before Houston became a full time player, teams tended to run a lot more at Dorsey/Hali than at T-Jax/Studebaker (unless they were going outside). After Houston became our full time SOLB? Forget about running the ball to that side. It just didn't happen. Teams just went left because yards could be had there. But T-Jax and Houston are a phenomenal duo against the run.
-It's worth saying one last time... Tyson Jackson gets double teamed quite a bit more than Dorsey. And what's more, he performs well against those double teams the majority of the time. Not to say he doesn't sometimes get run over or washed out of the play. He does. But way more often he holds his ground and forces runners to move laterally away from him.
"Replacement Need" Rating: 2
After watching the Chiefs this season, I was pretty sure he was our best lineman, and had surpassed Dorsey to an extent. After watching what ended up being over 500 defensive snaps of both players, I'm not longer "pretty sure." T-Jax is a better run defender and not nearly as pathetic a pass rusher (although he's still lacking in that department).
He's got great arm strength, keeps his head up, can handle double teams most of the time, rarely gets pancaked, and plays with WAY more of a mean streak than I realized. I'd never thought of T-Jax as a "mean" player. But after watching him exclusively, he really gets fired up out there. His primary weakness against the run is one of technique (as I said, he'll get too low and allow a blocker to basically lay on him).
It was as a pass rusher, however, where I was the most surprised. It's not that he literally CANNOT do it (which seems to be the case with Dorsey). Rather, he's only got one way of doing it (the bull rush), and he uses that move only a quarter of the time (if that). The rest of the time he looks like a wannabe OLB out there. And he's nowhere NEAR fast enough to pull that off. If he quits fooling around with finesse stuff he could actually contribute to the pass rush a little bit.
He doesn't rate a 1 the way DJ or Hali would (since I wouldn't replace those guys with anyone in the league). However, he's a keeper. His principal weakness is that pass rush. He's GOT to work on that. Maybe we'll get lucky and he'll read this on AP. Here, just in case, I'll do this...
Tyson, please stop trying to use "moves" when rushing the passer. It doesn't work. You're a bull, man. You can help this team WAY more by pushing the pocket back rather than going for the actual sack yourself. You know those faster guys on either side of you? Hali and Houston? Let them take the sacks and the glory. Believe me, we'll still know you're doin' work in there. But it's time you stop trying to act like Dwight Freeney out there and start acting more like Haloti Ngata. It's your best bet to become a guy who is an asset on passing downs.
Also T-Jax, while I've got you... talk to Pioli and RAC about getting us a legit, powerful NT (no offense Gregg. You played hard but wore down, big fella). Then on passing downs, you and _______ (insert legit, powerful NT name here) just do one thing... Push. The Double-H's will take care of the rest.
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Wow seth, instant REC, great post really enjoyed reading probably will read it a couple times.
If we had a double REC button or a tri fector REC button I would have hit it, best post I have seen yet at arrowhead pride.
Sorry about all the ass kissing but man this was good. keep it coming you just set the bar.
by kc-twitch on Feb 12, 2012 10:45 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
Haha thanks
No worries on all the compliments. It’s nice to hear it’s enjoyed after putting in the work.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
I'll hit your tri- rec button...
hmmmm did that come out wrong?
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 13, 2012 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
You need
to do a search on
Official Arrowhead Pride Parade
I've been rapping for about seveteen years okay? I don't write my stuff anymore I just kick it from my head you know what I'm sayin? I can do that. No disrespect but that's how I am.
Oh the Parade... how I miss it
His certainly take the cake for entertainment value.
I’ll give MN very high honors for “educational content” – this was beyond solid.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
Glad you liked it
Just exhausting to do though. I’m really going to have to pick and choose what players to do, because there’s no way I’ll have time for everyone.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
I was really hoping you'd do one on Mims.
I hear he’s pretty good
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 2:29 AM CST up reply actions
Haha I'd REALLY have to dig for that one...
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Love the insight! Thanks for the effort.
I dont see why you should do more than a couple. DJ/Tamba/Flowers have new deals, Berry, Houston, Lewis, are on rookie contracts. I’d like to see how Carr stacks up, and Belcher. So 2 at the most, since you already did Dorsey/Jackson. :)
Offense on the other hand….lol
Thanks again, love these kinds of posts, its why I come here!!!
Good point
to conserve time, focusing on the bubble players or players coming up on contract would be the most beneficial.
Don’t hurt yourself MN – I can’t imagine how long it took you (research and all) to put this together.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
It was about 6 hours total. Not too horrible
I’m interested in doing “controversial” players. And Justin Houston. I gotta do one on Justin Houston. I love that guy.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Whew, seriously? Only 6?
I figured just the tape alone would take about that long – I pegged this at about 10 total so that’s good to hear.
I would absolutely love to see one on Houston – it would be double interesting because of his progression through the year.
Hell man, just do whatever – I’ll read it no matter what, even if you do one on Thomas Gafford.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 10:44 AM CST up reply actions
I wrote as I viewed tape.
So I spent about 5 hours on tape, with only about on hour of “just” writing time.
Doing one on Houston I’ll probably emphasize progress as the year goes on like I did with Bailey.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
Buh-dass
I’ll anxiously await one on Houston – the more I think about it the more I excited I am to see it. We all know he was a little raw early in the season but saw him develop into a monster toward the end. It would be really interesting if we can identify a few points where he took big steps forward.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
Great analysis
I haven’t had as much time to watch games like I have in the past. But shouldn’t it also be noted that in a 2-gap system, the 5-techniques are asked to be much less aggressive in the pass rush? It’s not like a 1-gap system, where the D-linemen have more flexibility to be creative in the pass rush. The D-linemen are there much more for gap control. If I’m not mistaken, I think Miami is really the only team that still runs 2-gap.
If that’s the case, would that maybe account for why Jackson’s pass rush numbers are much lower?
Not really, no
I didn’t see a lot of him “not being aggressive” on pass plays. Rather, I saw him being aggressive in the WRONG way.
He’d line up, and then instead of trying to go THROUGH the opposing lineman he’d try to go AROUND him like an OLB. This would result in one of two endings
1) the opposing lineman would guide him in an “arc” towards the QB, with the ball being thrown well before Jackson would get close
2) With Jackson attempting to move inside either either a fake, a swim, or a “punch”. None of which would work (though the punch was the closest to being effective. Again, he’s very strong) as he’s WAY to slow for moves like that to get an O-lineman off balance.
Now, when he tried to go right AT the QB he had more success than I would’ve thought. He just doesn’t do it like that much. So it wasn’t so much a lack of aggression or an issue of gap control, just him attempting to rush in a way he’s physically not capable of.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
It's possible that he's tired
But if that’s the case, we’ve got a problem, because as I said, he plays way fewer snaps than most “top” 3-4 DEs.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
I thought tired too
until I remembered the part about lower snap count. I was thinking that the bull rush was draining him and he’d take some plays and try to scoot around with finesse. But considering the lower snap count one would hope he could bull rush on more than 25% of his plays.
I suppose it could also be the scheme – perhaps that play calls for him to go outside instead of pushing the pocket?
Do you have the tally for total snaps? All I saw were your notes on how many fewer snaps he had than Campbell and Watt.
Just trying to figure out his average snaps per game.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
611 total. 386 defending the run and 225 rushing the passer
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
Awesome, thanks
so rounding up would be about 39 total per game and 14 rushing the passer – that hardly seems like enough for him to get “gassed” and prevent him from going all out every play.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
this
I suppose it could also be the scheme
Is what I thought too. It must be a tactical decision. Maybe time for him to polish that one eh?
I've been rapping for about seveteen years okay? I don't write my stuff anymore I just kick it from my head you know what I'm sayin? I can do that. No disrespect but that's how I am.
I am certain that having TJ chip the RB or TE at the line was an adjustment Crennel had to make when Berry went down
Teams were eating our asses for breakfast down the middle of the field once we were forced to field the rotation of asshats at strong safety
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
The good news is
We can point at the other teams and say – “you eat asses for breakfast”
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
Awesome
I had a cow named Asshat once…Not even kidding but anyway great job MNchiefsfan..TJ has always been one of my favorite player and this analysis just made my day.
TOUCHDDDOOOWWWNNN KANSAS CITY!
Great post! Very informative and informational read.
I love the T Jax pick at the time and I still do. 2 gap lineman are not easy to find and T Jax appears to be a solid one.
Yes, he does. And if he figures out he's a bull and not a bullfighter, he'll get better
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:17 PM CST up reply actions
Awesome job man!
I’m pumped to see how t-jax keeps progressing and how him and houston do together over the next several years.
by chiefFANatic on Feb 12, 2012 11:17 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Thanks, and I am as well
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
Amazing Post
I hate seeing people bash on Jackson. It’s either because of his draft position, or the fact that most people don’t know what they’re talking about when it comes to 3-4 DE’s.
I’ve been meaning to sign up for a ProFootballFocus account for a while now, and this just gives me more motivation to.
I would
They have an incredible amount of information.
They’re hardly infallible, though. Their “run defense rating” with Jackson and Dorsey being an example. based on what I saw, Jackson’s the superior run defender despite dealing with more double teams. yet Dorsey is rated as better.
Still, they’re the closest thing you can get to a substitute for game film.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:50 PM CST up reply actions
Fantastic post. Just an all-around excellent read.
And probably deserving of a lot more praise and attention than it’s going to get at 10:30 on a Sunday Night in the off-season.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
I accidently posted it here rather than in fanposts..
And I have no idea how to take it down and move it into that category :).
hopefully Joel helps me out.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:36 PM CST up reply actions
Psh, it's your call.
But I think it’s pretty damn front-page worthy.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
Thanks
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:38 PM CST up reply actions
Not that this wasn't a valient spin on your "arguing with idiots" take
I feel like we know about the starters. Maybe this was already in the future plans, but I would much rather see breakdowns of players that we don’t see on hundreds of snaps and could potentially be starters depending on how the draft and free agency shakes out.
Lets see breakdowns of Amon Gordon, Travis Daniels, Jon Baldwin, Rodney Hudson and Jalil Brown. Help us out, MN. It would take a lot less time too
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 12, 2012 11:34 PM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
It would actually take just as much time
As I’d have to watch just as many snaps to find the specific ones they are in there on.
But I’ll consider it. There’s still a TON of debate about T-Jax though, so I wanted to cover him for sure.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
True, but there wouldn't be as many snaps to breakdown, rewind, rewatch, and repeat
Plus I’m not sure how much film you can get on the secondary or route running before the ball is thrown to breakdown.
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Feb 12, 2012 11:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That's the big problem with secondary and WR's
I really don’t have access to the type of tape I’d need to do much. Especially CB’s and safeties.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
so there's no telling definitively whether Sabby is bad
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 2:33 AM CST up reply actions
If I had money to wager
I’d put pretty much all of it on trentchiefsfan using a heavy dose of sarcasm there.
It's no fun if I have to explain it.
safest bet you'd ever make
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
Always great to read your posts
Makes me want Paul Soliai even more..
GIVE JAMAAL THE DAMN BALL!!!!!
by chief913-816 on Feb 12, 2012 11:35 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Me too... Me too.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 12, 2012 11:48 PM CST up reply actions
Great job as usual MN.
One thought occurred to me while reading… Is it possible he is not using the bull rush in an attempt to conserve energy? I would assume that it takes a lot more out of you to just push as opposed to attempting to go around a guy. Not to mention since he is a DE the defensive game plan may only rarely call for a bull rush. Just spit-ballin… great read!
That's a theory
However, if he needs to “conserve energy” despite being out on every obvious passing down, we’ve got a problem. Like I said, Campbell took 400 more snaps than T-Jax did. Watts took 200 more. He should have plenty of energy when in there.
I cannot imagine why the gameplan would call for him to do anything but bull rush. He’s terrible at every other method. But it could be, I suppose.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
On that line...
I’m sure the plan is to mix it up. The going low a couple times a game isn’t a bad thing for that reason. Looking back, did we ever really run any stunts? The thing about Jackson is he is still growing and should get stronger. Dorsey has kind of peaked. I still think the badmambajamba NT will step them both up. I’d still like to see them playing along side of one another and shooting gaps. The # of snaps is your most important stat for a #3 pick, and that is a problem. I’m not sure Bailey won’t out-do both before long. he just looks like a beast.
Bailey already looks better rushing the passer
He’s an athlete in an entirely different universe than Jackson and Dorsey. The question is whether he can be as strong at the line.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Bailey is a superior pass rusher when compared to either
And he’s a much, much better athlete. The question is his strength. Can he hold at the point of attack?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Bailey did get better at holding the point as the season wore on IMO
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
He definitely did
The only problem is he was in so rarely on running downs, and when he was in he was next to Gilberry (a sieve against the run). So it’s very difficult to really know what he can do.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
True
I was hoping to see him get some base DE snaps. Stupid RAC thinks he knows best!
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 7:44 PM CST up reply actions
Have to call B.S. on the draft position argument after 3 years.
Chiefs paid him over 8 million in ‘11 and could pay him near 15 million in ’13. He has gotten better at playing the run, and has been a solid starter, but i don’t know that he is worth that chunk of change for just better than average production.
He will have to restructure when the time comes
Like Dorsey, can get another contract here.. just not at that top pick amount
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 6:07 AM CST up reply actions
What does it matter
We’re that far under the cap and haven’t shown an interest in signing the big FAs to massive contracts
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 6:26 AM CST up reply actions
Cause Charles/DJ/Flowers/Hali are not big FAs?
Of course not all were FAs, but you get the point.
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 6:50 AM CST up reply actions
I was talking more to outside FAs
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
Locking up our own guys is more important
We will have to spend soon enough anyways, keep the core, add pieces as they fall
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
It has no bearing
On what kind of player he is.
It’s not called “Breaking down the Chiefs cap situation” or “breaking down Pioli’s drafts” :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Right it's about T-Jax and his salary is part of it.
Just commenting on your assumption that it doesn’t matter what pick a guy is if he is a decent player, which is clearly not the case.
Why is that clearly not the case?
His salary has no bearing on what he’s doing out there. All about what’s going on once the ball is snapped.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
absolutely agree
his salary will only be an issue when his contract is up, and they have to decide on a new deal
That is true, and being the theme of your article it all holds together and was well written.
I am just getting hung up on this…
“First, after a player has been in the league for 3 years, who gives a crap where he was taken in the draft? What matters is his production on the field. If a guy is producing for us, I don’t take into account his draft position when I decide how I feel about him as a player. Because ALL that matters is what’s on the field.”
You can’t just look at the production and decide where he was drafted has no bearing because value matters. Paying a guy a HOFers salary when at the moment he is just a solid starter, is when where he is picked matters. I know you weren’t getting into those types of figures, but when you want to make the argument that where he was picked doesnt matter you have to look at that topic like this Production – Salary = Value and is that player in the black? Right now I think T-Jax is in the red, but I digress from your main points.
I agree that value does matter
But again, this was on how he is as a player. Not his “value” as a draft pick.
And honestly, when you look at that draft, he was a pretty good pick. Terrible draft, and from what I understand Pioli attempted to trade back and could not (which is to be expected in such a talent-deprived draft)
And before you say “but we could’ve had Raji!” know that PFF rated Raji as the WORST NT/DT IN THE ENTIRE LEAGUE LAST YEAR (out of 88 players)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Wow!
I knew the packers defense sucked, but I didn’t expect that.
by polodude017 on Feb 13, 2012 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Understood, and yeah overall that was a shoddy draft class which is a fair point.
Damn didn’t realize that about Raji. All that opens up a whole other can of worms about how draft picks are paid. I know they have restructured it, but maybe not enough, but that is a topic for another day.
Yeah, I think you're really arguing for how bad the old CBA was with rookie wage scales.
Where TJax was picked up doesn’t matter. The old system of grossly overpaying rookie draft picks was just broken, and I’m glad it’s fixed now. But that was a problem with the system. Not with TJax.
He’s a legitimate starter and an achor on our D Line. Sure it’d be awesome to have maybe Halot Ngata instead, but when it comes right down to it – the guy is doing his job, and doing it pretty well. And we’re not being squeezed against the cap ceiling, so the contract has had zero effect on our ability to pay our players. Kind of a moot point.
It's no fun if I have to explain it.
Not that Clark or Pioli would ever go crazy in free agency...
but at some point in the future when running at the cap level overpaying could have an effect, for now though it’s fine. Of course I would rather overpay a stud…
Hey as bad and inconsistent as we've been for most of this past decade
I’m pretty happy with any players that we can put out on the field and not have to worry about doing their jobs.
The holes are getting patched up year by year. It’s sad that guys just doing their job well is still a bit of a luxury for us.
It's no fun if I have to explain it.
Can Carry Prichardson play RT?
Also great post as always MN.
Ron Paul 2012
by EricBerryYoYouScary on Feb 13, 2012 12:26 AM CST reply actions
Thanks
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Loved the post
I do however think that our ends are told not to truly rush the passer, rather make a small push upfield but mainly stay around the LOS to prevent the QB from coming back through their gaps on a sneak and such. If Dorsey was asked to truly rush the passer he would get pressure consistently IMO. Don’t know if you correlated how far he rushed upfield against a QB that was more likely to scramble as opposed to a statue. Tebow and Palmer as examples.
They are asked to rush
Check for a run, if not, they are asked to get after the QB. Some of the times that Tjax would take a wide angle could have been for a ’’contain’’. Dorsey just couldn’t get off blocks last year, not sure what the reason for the regression was but there were several times Dorsey/LG would just be standing there, Tamba would get pushed behind the QB and the QB had all day
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 6:10 AM CST up reply actions
That's my point. Dorsey would just be holding his ground
by RamX21 on Feb 13, 2012 9:58 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Sorry, it really just looks like you are searching for reasons they sucked.
I find it really hard to believe that the scheme called for them to get stonewalled repeatedly at the line. Dorsey and Jackson just aren’t very good at rushing the passer, bottom line.
by polodude017 on Feb 13, 2012 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
No
Dorsey would take an inside move to prevent the QB stepping up to avoid Tamba, instead Dorsey just likes to dance and hug the LG
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
. If Dorsey was asked to truly rush the passer he would get pressure consistently IMO
The snaps I watched said something very, very different.
do however think that our ends are told not to truly rush the passer, rather make a small push upfield but mainly stay around the LOS to prevent the QB from coming back through their gaps on a sneak and such.
I have a hard time believing this with the method T-Jax was using. Again, he wasn’t doing any kind of “gap control” when he’d try to “speed rush.” He actually had better gap control when bull rushing. So I don’t believe that’s the issue.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
I'm not saying he was 2 gapping on passing downs
What I’m saying is he most likely isn’t told to make an all out effort to get to the QB. His assignment on some plays could have been to take more of an outside move to keep contain or to the middle to collapse the pocket. It’s hard to make a 100% accurate call without knowing his assignments.
I’m only offering this point because I firsthand heard my coaches tell our lineman these kinds of things
by RamX21 on Feb 13, 2012 10:02 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
That very well could be
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Contain
probably is his assignment some of the time, but not every time he goes outside. If it were, there is no reason for him “bearing down” once he gets upfield. Clearly he has been instructed to try to get the QB via outside in certain situations. He just needs to improve in this area.
I've been rapping for about seveteen years okay? I don't write my stuff anymore I just kick it from my head you know what I'm sayin? I can do that. No disrespect but that's how I am.
This
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
Awesome Post!
I wonder what Skitzo has to say about this?
Bleedin Red & Gold... and Purple... since 1992.
by chiefs_fan_forever on Feb 13, 2012 12:28 AM CST reply actions
Probably something like, "I'm banned"
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Tried to rec you
And accidently flagged you. My bad
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
no worries.
I just cancelled the contract I put out on you :)
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 13, 2012 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
THAT'S why that well dressed gentleman stopped choking me...
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
Next time make sure to really cover the windpipe
Otherwise you did exceptional work.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
common mistake
ignore the windpipe altogether. Blood chokes are faster, more efficient, and you don’t get that annoying sound
We don't need a bunch of cats in here—"meeeooow!"—lookin' in the mirror. "I look gooooood, I got my extra bands on, I got my other shoes"—Be a dog! We don't need no meows, we don't need no cats. We need more dogs.
by MarineChiefsFan on Feb 13, 2012 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
0:)
We don't need a bunch of cats in here—"meeeooow!"—lookin' in the mirror. "I look gooooood, I got my extra bands on, I got my other shoes"—Be a dog! We don't need no meows, we don't need no cats. We need more dogs.
by MarineChiefsFan on Feb 13, 2012 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Whatever you say
Please don’t hurt me…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Great post, as always!
Enjoyed reading it. Thanks for writing it:) looking forward to all the others you do!
by O.C.ChiefsFan on Feb 13, 2012 12:45 AM CST via Android app reply actions
Great post, MN.
Your research has confirmed what I suspected, you can’t run on T-Jax. I look forward to your other reviews.
Deron Cherry for HOF :
6x Pro Bowl Selection (1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988)
Associated Press First-team All-Pro selection (x3) (1984, 1986, 1988)
Associated Press Second-team All-Pro selection (x2) (1983, 1985)
1986 NFL 101 AFC Defensive Player of the Year
NFL 1980s All-Decade Team
6yrs 100+ tackles
Astounding work, MN!
Loved it. Been arguing about T-Jax all season with my friends. Now, I finally win. Can’t wait for more, but I hope you can avoid watching those first two games…
Thank you
a link to direct the Jackson haters to. I feel bad for Dorsey, I want to see us trade him to NO or something. He’s too good to be cut but we are absolutely wasting his potential by lining him up in the 3-4
There are no stupid questions just stupid people
A stuff is listed a tackle for no gain or a loss and Jackson and according to espn, jackson had 3
You say that criticizing Jackson based on his draft status is insane, but then you say this
The more depressing part? He had exactly 1 sack this year. That’s just gross, as 20 other 3-4 DEs in the league had more. Yuck. Icky. Ew.
That is my problem, he is a 1 dimensional player and your analasys (albeit it very good) confirms that. His play has not been worth the 3rd pick. How many pro bowls has he played in? Is he looked at as an elite DE? The answer is no as you have pointed
<There are 19 3-4 DE’s in the league that PFF rates as “above average.” Ranked number 11 is Tyson Jackson. Not bad, but hardly exceptional. So what about the details?blockquote>
You have a guy that is the 11th player ranked at his position that was taken 3rd overall. That is a pretty big divide. I am sorry , but for a guy taken that high to only be ranked 11 out of 19 , is an indictement not a praise. People want to use this arguement that because he starts it is now irrelevent when he was taken….huh…really? Then how about Kendrick Lewis. He was a 5th round pick , but he looks like a steal. Would you support him being drafted in the 1st round? Why not, he starts? Because his talent and his play do not warrent a 1st round grade. It was interesting you brought up Belcher because he starts and is undrafted. But, I think anyone would agree it would have been ignorent to draft him high.It is the problem I have with the Dex and Arenas picks. Yes , they play , but not enough to warrent that high of a selection
I guess what I am trying to say is yes, it is more than fair to bring up when a guy was taken when evaluating what type of player he has become. I don’t understand the big fuss against it. Even by your pro jackson post and research, have to concede that he isn’t even in the top 10 at his position. If he isn’t in the top 10 at his position, how is he worth the 3rd overall pick
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 13, 2012 2:11 AM CST reply actions
First 3 years are 'development' years for D-Line.
T-Jax just finished his 3rd season. Shesh, Peyton Manning took 8 years to get to the Super Bowl….that guy is a bust / overrated to right?
T-Jax has been a day 1 starter and is getting better every snap. Put a real NT next to him and you can forgetaboutit. Great pick and if we could do it again, I hope Pioli would pull that trigger (I would).
Don't forget that he missed almost his entire 2nd year....
Arrowhead Pride addict
by groundedchevy on Feb 13, 2012 8:52 AM CST up reply actions
no he didn't he only missed 4 games in 2010
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 13, 2012 9:39 PM CST up reply actions
saints, why did you go and find the smallest part of MN's piece to nitpick, then find old comments from whenever, and...nitpick?
You’re taking issue with MN’s desire to stop complaining about draft status and discuss results? That’s the only reason he made that comment.
What are your REAL issues with this post, or the general thesis that Tyson Jackson is an extremely valuable part of this defense?
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 13, 2012 8:16 AM CST up reply actions
because tha guy is not an elite player
Find me 1 coach in this league that says Tyson Jackson is elite at his position. And by elite I mean top 4. He was taken with the 3rd overall pick! And the best we can say is ‘’Well, he’s above average and he is 11th out of 19 guys that are above average’’….so what. Bottom line, you really can’t call him a bust , because he does start and has improved. But , he is far from being that elite difference maker that he was drafted to be
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 13, 2012 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
He is a good 2 gap 5 tech
He is not a 3-4 OLB, nor a 4-3 DE, nor a 1 gap 5 tech that is supposed to get the big #s. He does his job very well, yeah he was taken at #3 but does that matter? Nope
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 14, 2012 6:00 AM CST up reply actions
How many 2 gap 3-4 ends were taken with the 3rd overall pick!?
If you can find 1 let me know. I went back to 2000 and the closest I could find was Gerard Warren in 01. Even then, he was drafted has a 1 tech but he did play some 5 tech later in his career. Here are some guys that weren’t taken with the 3rd pick that are ‘’above average’’ (remember that is the new judging format)
Ty Warren 1(13th)
Stephen Bowen undrafted
Randy Starks 3rd round
Shaun Smith undrafted
Calias Campbell 2nd round
Jackson was and still is a reach
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
It took Aaron Smith awhile to become elite, too. 3-4 defensive ends are not made overnight, never have been and never will be.
Before you harp on draft status, yes I know Smith was a mid-round pick. The point still stands.
If MN’s post had been, “A Draft Evaluation: Assessing Value and Relevance of Scott Pioli 1st-3rd Round Selections Since 2007,” or something along those lines, I’d agree with you. The way the world looks right NOW, Jackson was a solid-to-good pick at a draft slot where elite players are typically selected.
However, that wasn’t his post and that’s why he immediately disclaimed the whole draft selection status. And at this point, so do I. Jackson’s on the squad, has been on the squad, and will be on the squad next year. There ain’t no wayback machines, especially in posts that evaluate current levels of performance. That’s where I was coming from.
And to go back to what I led in with, it’s not easy to become elite when you play end in the 3-4. It takes YEARS of mastery—you’re asked to do a lot of what 4-3 tackles do, some of what 4-3 ends do, and on any fire-zone calls you might be asked to do what a lot of 3-4 & 4-3 inside linebackers do, and drop back four to six yards in a short zone.
The levels of progress we’ve seen from Tyson indicate that he’s a force against the run, and may only need add’l snaps to receive national notice for this. Further, with technique work his pass-rush could be much more effective. He’s got a fair amount of Ngata to his game, if he’d embrace and refine it…and maybe that’s the key. Our staff needs to put the big load in a position to crash into backs of all kinds (running, quarter, etc) and stop enabling this outside loop rush crap. Getting his snap count higher could help.
Elite doesn’t happen the minute you’re drafted.
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 14, 2012 8:36 AM CST up reply actions
Smith by year 3 had 8 sacks, by year 2 he had 4
I will try this again. Would you spend 60,000 on a Ford Focus? Why not, it’s a car that gets you from point A to B. Would you spend 2 million on a 1,000 square foot home? Why not, it’s a roof over your head. We have a value system (and i don’t mean family) in this country that determines worth by price. when you pay more you expect more. And the 3rd overall pick is a lot to pay for a guy with Jacksons production. I don’t understand how people divorce the 2. And ‘’good enough’’ doesn’t cut it when talking about a player drafted that high.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
The problem is
We either keep him or cut him. The salary has already been decided at this point.
Now, if this had been a post about his NEXT salary or something like that, then it would’ve been relevent.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
if you cut him
Then you have to take a cap hit. I’m not suggesting we cut the guy. All I’m saying is above average doesn’t cut it for the 3rd overall pick. Now , if he were a Ndamakin Suh devastating force on our line, then yes, it would be absurd to quival about where he was drafted because it would be a mute point. But ,since no one is saying he is that type of player. And because even the most die hard supporters say he is just an ‘’above average ’’player (i.e not elite) then it is more than fair to call into question where he was drafted
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
So, in essence, you're complaining to complain....arguing to argue.
“I’m not suggesting we cut the guy. All I’m saying is above average doesn’t cut it for the 3rd overall pick”
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 15, 2012 12:09 AM CST up reply actions
So you think that 3rd round production is ok for the 3rd overall pick
You’re ok with that?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 15, 2012 2:16 AM CST up reply actions
And yet again, after about three years a guy's production is just that--his production. It is what it is.
Judging the draft status (at that point) is more about the personnel folks who picked him and less about the player itself.
-that’s my point
-that’s MN’s point.
Bitching about his production “as the #3 pick” is kind of like being pissed about Blackledge over Marino, Trezelle Jenkins over anything and anyone, etc: It’s more for historical purposes than anything.
Read about three replies above, and it’ll answer your question about what I’m OK with, saints. I think I said it somewhere in my Smith comments.
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 15, 2012 8:41 AM CST up reply actions
Unless that's not the point of what I'm talking about
Let’s say I wanted to talk about whether or not law school is difficult. I do an entire post talking about why it is and isn’t hard, maybe compare it in difficulty to other schools.
Then you come in and say, “yeah, but law school is so expensive.”
What does that have to do with what I’m talking about?
“Breaking down the Chiefs: Tyson Jackson”
I’m breaking a player down. Not his salary. Not his draft spot. Him as a player. That’s it.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 15, 2012 12:19 AM CST up reply actions
A better analogy would be
Is if you came on here and said how good a certain law school was and how much money you were going to make when you graduate from said law school. And I came on here said ya but they aren’t even in the top 200 as far as graduate income. Said school isn’t worth how much time and money that you have put into it. And you respond by saying, ‘’well at least I will get a paycheck’’
It is the same as here. You want to completly separate Jacksons draft status from what you are getting out of him. That is where the disconnect between you and I on this issue stems from. I don’t see how there is any way you can divorce the 2. The guy is above average …ok , I get it. Lets go a different avenue for a second , while I ask the question , is he a Richard Seymour clone, scares the O-line coach to death, all pro type player? We need him to be Haloti Ngata, not just the best player on our average line.
I don’t have access to every game tape KC has played(although I will check it out on NFL replay) . But, most of what you said confirms what I have been saying the last 3 years. Above average against the run, pretty good tackler, below average at rushing the passer. Put it all together and you have an average player. Lets look at the number 3 picks drafted since 2000 and see where Jax measures up
2000 Chris Samuels – 6 time pro bowler and was an elite LT for a decade. Would you take Jax over him?
2001 Gerard Warren- tough 1, he reminds me a lot of Jax actually. He was dominating at time but had consistency issues. I think Jax has a similar career path as Warren has. Toss up , but I say Warren gets the edge
2002 Joey Harrington- bust, Jax wins running away
2003 Andre Johnson- 1 of the elite receivers the past decade. Would you take Jax over him? over 700 rec and almost 10,000 yards
2004 Larry Fitzgerald- might be the best wr in the game. 73 TD’s the past 7 years. Would you take Jax over him
2005 Braylon Edwards- had some decent years , but like Jax far from elite.
2006 Vince Young – The pick was widely criticized when it was made. Wasn’t worth the 3rd pick
2007 Joe Thomas – 5 time pro bowler in 5 years . Would you take Jax over him?
2008 Matt Ryan- has 4 winning seasons under his belt . Would you take Jax over him?
2010 Gerald McCoy – jury is out because of injuries
2011 Marcell Darius- looks like a beast in the middle for Buffalo. Would you take Jax over him?
Funny how a lot of teams found game changing players with their 3rd pick
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 15, 2012 3:08 AM CST up reply actions
just to be clear
I used that law school analogy strictly as a hypothetical. I have no clue where you are going to school or in what field and it’s none of my buisness. i just want to make that clear so I don’t get hate comments on here from other people who read that and think that it was a shot at you. Clearly it was not
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 15, 2012 3:15 AM CST up reply actions
FYI, I didn't see it as a potshot :) As a third party I think it read how you wanted it to.
For me, after a guy has been on the team and playing, his draft position matters about as much as where he went to college: Not a lot. It’s his contributions that matter after that point.
To use your logic, how do we feel about Belcher then? I think he’s eminently replaceable, a super sub/born-to-be special teamer who is starting by necessity. But based on numbers he’s been adequate, and based on draft status he’s “blown up.” So to use the “can’t separate draft status from success” model, ON ALL SELECTIONS and not just cherry picking, is Belcher irreplaceable to this club?
That IS one logical conclusion from what you’re suggesting.
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 15, 2012 8:47 AM CST up reply actions
Well again......
We are talking about 2 different things here . Belcher is undrafted, so the bar is set very low for him in terms of expectations. If he were drafted in the 1st round , He would be a dissapointment. Since he is undrafted however, he has become a good player based on his value to cost ratio .Make sense ?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 15, 2012 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
No, it doesn't if you're strictly talking about what kind of player he is
He’d be the exact same player in either scenario, yet you’d grade him differently.
We approach the game from different paradigms, and I think we’re just going to have to accept that. You’re unwilling to view a player without looking at his draft position. I’m willing to do so, and it’s what I did here. When I do Houston’s breakdown, I’m not gonna talk about what a great “value” he was. Same with Belcher. I’ll talk about their development as a player, and that’s it.
I think we may have to do the old “agree to disagree” here…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 15, 2012 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
well let me ask you this
I asked this earlier and never got a response. Those 19 D ends that pff ranked as above average. Were there a group ranked as elite before those. And where does dorsey rank on that list?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 15, 2012 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
Nah it came off fine
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 15, 2012 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
If the Ford Focus is in a lot full of Chevy Cavaliers, Dodge Neons, Daewoo Nubiras and Kia Rios that are priced just as high
Then yes, I spend the $60k on the Focus and make the best of it.
I don’t know why you can’t get off his draft position – it must haunt you at night to know that we took Tyson at #3 and he hasn’t been in the Pro Bowl every year. Did you lose a bet that draft year or something?
That draft was a hot bucket of diarrhea – we tried to make the best of our available options and didn’t come out too bad – which is more than a lot of teams can say about their 1st round pick that year.
Sure he may not be worth what he got, but that doesn’t mean he’s garbage. His next contract will align more with his true value. This is part and parcel to what was broken about the draft prior to the rookie wage scale – you gambled HUGE on players with no real guarantee of how they’d pan out. That’s just how it was.
If your only basis for judgement of Jackson is where he was drafted – you’re never going to be satisfied.
Now, if you can set that bias aside and just look at the player alone, he’s a solid 3-4 DE.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 14, 2012 6:05 PM CST up reply actions
If jax was a dominatong Ndamakin Suh type player
Then no, I wouldn’t care where he was drafted. But, he is far from that. Therefore, it is fair to question where he was drafted. If you go into a draft with a top 5 pick with the attitude of’’well…were just going to throw a dart and hope we get a decent player’’ , then you are never going to grow as a franchise
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
...so "successful franchises" don't occasionally overvalue draft picks, huh?
Limas Sweed would like a word (PIT). So would Chad Jackson (NE), Larry English (SD)…hell, Reggie Bush as one of your Saints. Ohh—Crabtree in SF…
“But those guys are developing/busts/injured”—all excuses. They were thought to be talents, taken in the 1st or 2nd rounds, and didn’t pan out. Sometimes shit works out and sometimes it doesn’t, that’s scouting 101.
You assume that Jackson was picked by “just going to throw a dart and hope we get a decent player.” Link it por favor.
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 15, 2012 12:15 AM CST up reply actions
Apples and heads of lettuce
Sweed was a 2nd round pick not the 3rd overall pick
Jackson see Sweed and Pioli drafted him (hmmm see a pattern here)
English was taken …what 14th? sorry not the same thing
Reggie Bush I thought he was overrated and was 1 of the few people that hated the pick.
Give Crabtree a decent QB and he is an 85 catch guy. We aren’t talking about some 5th rounder here. This is the 3rd pick we are talking about
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 15, 2012 2:14 AM CST up reply actions
saints, you never even really replied to what I said.
My point: All franchises mis-evaluate and over draft certain players. It doesn’t matter what position. Aaron Curry might be a better example for you, then, but my point still stands.
How do you draw the conclusion that Jackson was drafted by “throw(ing) a dart?”
He wasn’t the pick that you, or I, or 93% of us would have made at that spot. But that doesn’t mean he was picked by pulling a name out of a hat.
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 15, 2012 8:51 AM CST up reply actions
I didn't mean Pioli literally pulled a name out of a hat on draft day
But that is what it felt like on that day , that’s for sure
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 15, 2012 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
"matter what position" means what draft position. Sorry--just had to clarify.
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 15, 2012 8:51 AM CST up reply actions
When Suh becomes a half decent run defender, let me know
Dude’s almost as one dimensional as T-Jax. And did more to hurt his team than help them this year
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 15, 2012 12:23 AM CST up reply actions
I think you misunderstand his point.
It’s okay to take into account the type of player TJax has become when discussing where he was drafted.
What you shouldn’t do is take into account where he was drafted when discussing the type of player he’s become.
There’s a difference between saying, “We shouldn’t have taken Jackson at #3 overall because he’s only ‘very good’ and we were expecting ‘elite,’” and saying “Tyson Jackson sucks because we took him at #3.”
What’s done is done, and the fact that Pioli couldn’t find a parter to trade down 3 years ago has no bearing on how well Jackson plays on the field. That’s MN’s point.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
Who, blockquote attack
A “stuff” is an arbitrary term. I’m going off PFF’s in depth stats, not ESPN. Never ESPN. Ever, ever, ever.
Again, I’m not talking about our draft. It’s irrelevant when breaking down a player. I’m not saying, “he’s good for being taken at such-and-such position.” I’m saying, “he’s an asset” or, “he’s not an asset.”
That’s it;. Crap, I’m at 3000 words as it is. No way am I going to go full on draft position stuff as well. It’d require talking about the incredible regression by Raji this year (T-Jax had a better year), and all that kind of stuff…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
If a stuff is an arbitrary term
Then what do you think a tackle is? The NFL doesn’t even recognize a tackle as official stat
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
All that said, I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree
You view the NFL through the draft (at least most of the time, it seems that way). I view it through the product on the field.
I don’t care if a guy was a “steal” or a “disappointment” based on his draft position. I care only about what he does on the field.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
from what i gather
You and many others on here look at a draft and say is that guy playing or is he not, is he an asset or is he not. I don’t judge a draft that way. I look at is he worth the slot at where he was selected. Take Mark Sanchez for example. If you were to do a realistic, non bias assesment of where he ranks at QB, I think you could say 12th, 13th out of 32 starting QB’s. That would put him in about the top 40% of the league at his position. But, many people on here and elsewhere label him a bust. Why is that, I mean afterall he has started 6 playoff games and his QB rating actually goes up in the playoffs. Yet, people think he hasn’t lived up to his draft status for whatever reason. Then I ask the question , why don’t we say the same about Tyson Jackson?
Your post illustrates that Jackson , by the opinion of a very well respected sight, has him at 11th out of 19 DE’s. That by definition is below average. That puts him in the bottom half of players at his position. And don’t forget, he was selected 2 slots higher than ‘’the Sanchise’‘. Where you are drafted matters in terms judging the production on the field. And Jackson is to 1 dimensional to have been taken that high. That doesn’t mean that he doesn’’t have value as a player. It does mean however, that he was not worth the spot where he was taken and I think your analasys subtly points that out
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 13, 2012 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
Actually...
he is rated number 11 out of the 19 DE’s that were rated as “above average”, not number 11 out of 19 overall. The fact that he is in the “above average” category completely negates the fact that you call him the definition of average.
P.S. – Mark Sanchez is wretched. Pure, unadulterated wretch.
by chief59 on Feb 13, 2012 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
You'd take Sanchez over 20 other NFL QBs? Gotta test this out...
Rodgers, Brady, Ryan, Freeman, Brees, Big Ben, Stafford, Schaub, Eli, Flacco, Smith, Romo, Rivers, Cutler, Newton, Dalton, Vick, Orton, Tebow (yeah, Tebow), Hasselback…
Those are the guys who, off the top of my head, are better than Sanchize. The dude completes 56% of his passes! He tossed 18 picks! He’s just as bad as Matt Cassel, if not worse.
Mark Sanchize is labelled a bust because he absolutely sucks, not because of his draft position.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
No, no no
He’s not 11 out of 19 3-4 DEs. He’s 11th out of the 19 that are considered ABOVE AVERAGE PLAYERS by PFF (not yelling, just emphasizing).
You misread me, bro. There are more than 19 players listed on PFF. There are only 19 that are considered above average players by PFF, one of whom is T-Jax.
Does that clarify things a little?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
so basiclly
If 1 is terrible and 10 is Reggie White, he is about a 6, is that what you are saying? And if so, is there another group listed as elite, or are the elite part of the 19?Tell you what , if you have the link to the article , shoot it on here and I’ll take a look at it. But in any case, a 3-4 D-end(there can’t be that many of them ) that was taken at number 3 , has to be a lot better than ‘’above average’‘. He needs to be a major, disruptive force on that line. I don’t see that out of Jackson, if for no other reason he gives you absolutly nothing when it come to a pass rush.
And Sanchez is better than Tebow and it’s not even close.Tebow completes what, 45% of his passes? He is also better than Alex Smith or Dalton at this point. He is a lot better than Orton, Orton 0 playoff starts in 7 years . Sanchez 6 playoff starts in 3 years
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 13, 2012 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
id take Orton over Sanchez all day.
Not sure if I feel Jackson has made enough of an impact as of now, to say that picking him at the 3rd spot was the right move. But ,I also havent researched every snap he has played.
What I do know is that after 2010 ,Dorsey was a fan favorite, jackson was being tossed around to being traded. Now I see the opposite. Similiar to our CB situation.
Point being that every year can change views that we as fans have on players. I dont think breaking down Jackson on this one year tells us enough about him except that he is better then the game stats show. He has to show he can do it for more then a year.I believe that if Jackson performs better next year, it would prove he is on the up and up and clear up any doubt we might have.
But for the amount of effort put into this post, I think you are attacking a petty topic. We cant go back on the 09 draft and it seems he is performing at an above average level, which means he isnt a bust. Maybe not a probowler, but being solid is just as important.
by TheScreenName on Feb 13, 2012 10:56 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
But that is what I am getting at
To take a guy at the number 3 spot, he needs to be more than’’above average’, he needs to be elite. And any data you use says that Jackson is far from an elite player at his position. He may not be a bust per’se. But he needs to play better to justify his draft status.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 12:50 AM CST up reply actions
Not always
I believe what they are trying to say is that he was drafted at 3 overall, yes. But now its 3 years later and even though he isnt elite, he is playing solid. So he is contributing to our defense in a good way. Since he hasnt lived up to the “#3” standards, do we call him a bust and trade him/release him? Whether or not he is playing like a number three overall pick or not, he is still helping our defense regardless so he useful to us. Would we all like for him to be a pro bowler? Hell yea. But he is far from a bust too. And by the sound of this post, he is on the right track.
Whats done is done so now you have to rate Jackson as a DE and not what draft pick he came in the league at. That doesnt effect who or how he plays today,
by TheScreenName on Feb 14, 2012 1:06 AM CST up reply actions
I am rating him as a player
He is a slightly above average player. He is solid against the run and terrible at rushing the passer. Jackson apologists say that you can’t expect him to rush the passer , because that isn’t his job, well yes and no. It is true that Jacksons primary job isn’t rushing the passer. However, he needs to be able to read and react and have some pass rush ability. Otherwise, your defense becomes to predictable and you can be exploited as we were several times last year.
As I said , Jackson isn’t a bust, but he is a dissapointment for where he was taken and more importantly the production we have gotten from him
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 1:18 AM CST up reply actions
He does have SOME pass rush ability
He just uses it very, very rarely. I have no idea what his issue is with bull rushing every play, but he needs to do so in order to take another step forward as a player.
It’s a marked difference from Dorsey, who displays NO good pass rush moves and eats almost zero double teams when rushing.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 14, 2012 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
About 66% of the round 1 picks from the 2009 draft
were a “disappointment for where they were taken”
Every year players are taken higher than they should be, other players are taken lower than they should be. You make the best pick you can and make the most of it.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 14, 2012 6:21 PM CST up reply actions
Dalton led a bad team to a complete turnaround
Sanchez torpedoed a good team. Smith did enough to help a good team.
Maybe I’ll give you Tebow.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 14, 2012 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
Smith has been in this league 7 years and he just now looks like an NFL Qb
Dalton went 9-7 and was 1 and done in his rookie year. By way of comparrison , Sanchez was in the AFC title game his rookie year. That team has way more problems than Sanchez believe me. But , this isn’t a defend Mark Sanchez post. My point was/is, if Sanchez is a bust and he has accomplished more for where he was drafted than Jackson has, why isn’t Jackson looked at in a similar light?. I know Sanchez plays QB and will have a more profound impact than Jax ever could. But, until this year , Jax was looked at as 40 miles of broken glass. Now all of the sudden he is Neil Smith. I don’t understand the love fest for the guy. Yes, he has improved . But, not enough to christen him as the next great KC defender in a long line of KC defenders
As far as his draft position goes, I will ask you what I asked go sal up above. Would you pay 60,000 for a Ford Focus? You wouldn’t ? Why, I mean afterall all that matters in the end is it runs …right? No one would ever dream of paying that much, because the value doesn’t dictate the expense. In other words price vs value matters. It matters in every walk of life . You get what you pay for as they say. And if that applies to every aspect of life, then how does it not apply to a draft pick? Just like you would laugh at a car dealer asking for 60,000 for a Ford Focus, I laugh at the 3rd overall pick being spent on a player of Jackson’s dimensions
I have been pretty consistent about Jax since day 1. I thought it was a bad pick then and I think it is a very very average pick now. Yes, I have softened a little bit , because he has improved. I still give the pick a C- though. And nothing in your post (again well researched and articulated as it is) changes my mind. In fact, it only reinforces what I have been saying the past 3 years about the guy.A 1 dimensional player that gives you little as a pass rusher. And that my friend simply will not do, especially in a league where guys are dropping back 40 times a game now
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
not enough to christen him as the next great KC defender in a long line of KC defenders
I’m not doing that here. Nowhere did I call him a “great defender.” He’s still too one dimensional for that.
As far as “grading the pick” goes, again, that’s not what this was about. Not about his contract. Not about his next contract. None of that. What does he bring to the table? I’m not talking about him in the “should we re-sign him for a similar contract” sense. Just about on the field. That’s it. Hence, the ignoring of the draft.
And frankly, anyone we would’ve realistically picked in that draft besides Orakpo would get a C. Raji regressed BADLY this year, having a way worse year than T-Jax. Who else goes there?
You look at that first round and T-Jax is one of the better picks.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
lets see
BJ Raji (1 bad year doesn’t break a player just as 1good year doesn’t make a player cough cough
Bryan Orakpo
Brian Cushing
Clay Mathews
Michal Oher
Eugene monroe
Hakeem Nicks’
Percy Harvin
just to name a few that were more productive than Jax
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 9:14 PM CST up reply actions
Of course, Raji gets a pass for sucking this year
Monroe? Dude’s average. Cushing hasn’t been the same since he stopped juicing. Oher has gotten worse every year. Harvin’s a glorified role player.
So out of 32 picks, you can name 8, and half of those are very debatable. Yeah, I’m really ok with the direction we went.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 15, 2012 12:28 AM CST up reply actions
that was just off the top of my head
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 15, 2012 2:07 AM CST up reply actions
I've got time :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 15, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
Of the top 100 players taken that year
Only 10 were DE’s. And I’m not even looking into 3-4 vs 4-3 DE’s. Jackson has more tackles than any of them. Who else would you have picked for a DE assuming that is what you were looking for?
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 13, 2012 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
not sure why it came out looking like that, but oh well you get the idea
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 13, 2012 2:12 AM CST reply actions
Haha yeah, I got ya
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Excellent read
and well researched. I love these pieces.
This is the kind of stuff I look for on this site, a gem hiding in a field of “Why Peyton Manning should come to KC” and “Who we should draft” posts.
"Trying is the first step to sucking" -Jimmy Chance
There are some gems there too :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Great article.
I’ve always thought of Dorsey as the better of the two, but you’ve changed my mind. Here’s hoping he continues to get better.
If you were a hot dog and you were really hungry, would you eat yourself? I would, with some sauerkraut.
Me too
I’m very disappointed in Dorsey’s play this year. Not that he was awful (he wasn’t), but I was really hoping he’d continue the pattern of improvement. And he instead seemed to regress or stay the same.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
How much of it is the fact that they carry slightly different roles...
Dorsey primarily has a blood sucking sack machine next to him that is going to leave a big hole (granted, nothing like the days of DT) to protect. Over-all, I think the team really started to play as a unit this year, and I don’t want to Fudge it up. A nose tackle with some push would be great.
I agree that may be part of it
Houston is certainly a better run defender than Hali. That may be helping T-Jax out too.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Cool read
It was as a pass rusher, however, where I was the most surprised. It’s not that he literally CANNOT do it (which seems to be the case with Dorsey). Rather, he’s only got one way of doing it (the bull rush), and he uses that move only a quarter of the time (if that). The rest of the time he looks like a wannabe OLB out there. And he’s nowhere NEAR fast enough to pull that off. If he quits fooling around with finesse stuff he could actually contribute to the pass rush a little bit.
Or, as Todd Haley would say, “still room to get better. And that’s a good thing”
Haha exactly
I just hope he stops fooling around with finesse stuff.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
No prob. Fun to write
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
I do it just for you BAMF
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
My very own lawyer?
That could come in veryyyyyy handy
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 9:07 AM CST up reply actions
Sure, it was nice work and all
but don’t you realize that one sack is just icing on the cake because he’s NOT SUPPOSED to get sacks. How lucky are we?
In accordance with the prophecy
IMO this argument is used too much
I’ve used it myself on numerous occasions. The problem is other 3-4 ends are getting quite a bit more from Pass rush. I do agree not playing in the Nickel defense might be the cause.
Arrowhead Pride addict
by groundedchevy on Feb 13, 2012 8:55 AM CST up reply actions
Have to take systems into account
Not every 3-4 team is a 2 gap, not every 5 tech is asked to take 2 blockers
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 8:56 AM CST up reply actions
Most of there sacks also come as the OLB forces them up inot the tackles.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
Well... Given that he rushes the passer over 200 times a year
Is to too much to ask for a little more?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
I was mostly being facetious
but, I’m in complete agreement with you. Just wanted to get that argument out there.
In accordance with the prophecy
Someone had to :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
muchi muy bueno, Senor!
so, this should be THE definitive end of discussion on the relative merits of one Mr Tyson Jackson, right? right! it won’t be, of course … but it SHOULD be … great read, thank you for the film study-time (and the write up!)
now, back to that ever so exciting business law class … you know, the one you LOVE where you always sit in back and yawn and eventually flip your laptop to AP in the mornign because you’re so incredibly bored and Happy Monday!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Hey, hey, I'd NEVER not pay attention in business law
Because I’m not in that class this semester :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Dude, I appreciate the time you spent on this, but Tyson Jackson sucks.
He’s fat, lazy and doesn’t get sacks. He’s nowhere near “beast” status. ;)
by NigerianNightmare on Feb 13, 2012 8:19 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Needs to move to his natural position.
Yep, I’m calling it now: QB coach.
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
by go_saleaumua on Feb 13, 2012 8:21 AM CST up reply actions
Pour a rec out for Skitz
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Nice work MN, thanks for taking the time to do this.
Regarding his pass-rush….What was it that made his outside rushes so ineffective? Strictly footspeed, going side-to-side instead of upfield, etc? You’d figure that he could find a way to stun his blocker for a few seconds and move upfield…Is his footwork out of whack too?
I’m glad to see Jackson’s development as a run-stuffer has come along nicely. He’s evolved into our defense’s version of Ty Warren (a nastier version?) and that’s a good starting point.
I wonder where his ceiling is as a player….
Vermin Supreme in 2012
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rji74B453JY
What was it that made his outside rushes so ineffective? Strictly footspeed, going side-to-side instead of upfield, etc?
Both of those. He’s just too slow to pull it off, AND he takes a long route instead of a “tight curve” to the QB. He also fails to get his shoulder under the blocking OL to try and force his way around them. It’s just ugly all the way around.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
thanks dude, something more than speculation and rah-rah for a guard. Tell me, please
when you developed the love for DJ? In year one thru 5 when he sucked or when he finally became a real pro? A problem with this team is that it has taken so long for our top draft picks to become good pro’s. And draft position equals dollars which presents problems for fans and cap space. Having said that, we drafted for need with Jackson and he is doing fine now, he was poor in his rookie season and adequate his second. When it is all said and done I think Pioli is doing much better in the draft than most think.
I suggest Belcher for a future study as I think he is developing the instincts for the position and was apparent late in the season when it appeared he took a step up to his game. Again thanks for a nice post.
Belcher and Houston?
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 8:28 AM CST up reply actions
I like the sound of that
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Then it's decided!
Tomorrow we shall get a post from you breaking down Belcher and Houston!
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 9:09 AM CST up reply actions
Haha sure
Just let me drop out of law school real quick and we’ll get started…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Gahhh then I wont have my own lawyer... decisions decisions...
Ok fine! Stay in school..
Wednesday we get the post!
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed. Second-most controversial figure on the defense.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I'd like to know...
not how many tackles…I believe he made less this year, but where his average stop was at. Seemed like he was starting to re-act quicker this year.
I don't know if DJ ever "sucked".
I remember certain instances where he would time the snap count perfectly, burst through a hole untouched, but simply over-pursue because he wasn’t mature enough as a football player to really just break down and make the tackle.. But the thing is, football isn’t all about tackles. The best football players are the ones who sacrifice personal statistics for the benefit of the team. And DJ got disruption, broke up the play and even though he didn’t make the tackle the RB/QB was aware of him and tried to redirect the play only to be tackled by another player.
And I agree with if he does an analysis on any defensive player, I’d like Belcher. He may not be the best in coverage, but his run support is great. I still remember during the Bears games (a great day for all of our linebackers, and Houston’s breakout game) Marion Barber thought he had a wide open lane and Belcher just flew from his stance and stopped him cold. His form is great, but I still don’t see how he gets by as a 220 pound linebacker.
An analysis on Houston would also be good, but I know what it’s like for people to be wanting you to do all these things that take forever.
by NigerianNightmare on Feb 13, 2012 8:31 AM CST up reply actions
Belcher is not at 220 anymore
Several reports that he bulked up, and looks like it on the field
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 8:34 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, talking about Belcher kind of sparked my interest in him.
Crennell said he’s really hit the gym this season, everyone else leaves and he’ll just stick around. Gotta love a guy like that, finally gets the chance to start, hits the weights and really steps his game up on the field.
by NigerianNightmare on Feb 13, 2012 9:24 AM CST up reply actions
I started liking DJ a lot more last year, when he became much more consistent
And this year he was just insane out there. Consistent AND half a dozen huge plays a game.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
yeah tjack
Is good at what is needed of him but the problem is there is a clone opposite of him doing the same and a dt doing the same. Our entire line gets no push on rushing theattack passer passing tjack should stay but upgrades needed at dt and the other end to provide penetration and take the load off of hali and houston and the secondary. We need upgrades at de and dt with tjack and dorsey manning the other side. I think belcher same thing good but one trick pony need someone who can cover too . The dline needs to do more same with oline richardson good at run blocking but terrible at pass blocking these guys will get exposed and make the unit worse. I think you can’t keep both dorsey and tjack on the dline even if u get a good dt they should be rotating at one de position and bring in someone who can provide both and with a new dt the dline could have depth rotation and make hali, houston and the rest very scary if you want a example what a good dline can do see the giants, without them the giants secondary and linebackers get exposed
by rickrock58 on Feb 13, 2012 8:40 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I especially like
That you were still respectful to players that were the weaker links on the team.
As fans, we forget that we are being extraordinarily hateful to players/coaches we don’t ‘like’.
Great breakdown. I’d love to see more of this.
by MichaelMantastic on Feb 13, 2012 8:33 AM CST reply actions
I used to poke a lot more fun at players
But I got an email from a family member asking me (very politely and respectfully) what my problem is. That kinda shifted my perspective. These guys are people, and there’s no need to completely run them down when they struggle.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 9:11 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
banned
there’s no need to completely run them down when they struggle.
Kila's slash for Apr 20 to May 4, 2011, right before he was sent down: .276 / .344 / .448
by SagehenMacGyver47 on Feb 13, 2012 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Ha! Nah, just someone who knows a player I was really dogging.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
Love me some T-Jax too
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Good stuff, MN
But go a little more in-depth next time, will ya? Geez, if you’re not going to put any effort into it…then don’t even bother.
(And yes, for those that have trouble recognizing it…that was sarcasm)
My earliest Chiefs memories are watching guys named Dawson, Podolak, Taylor, Thomas, Bell, and Buchanan. So, yeah...I'm kind of an old fart.
Too lazy :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
I think your sources suck.
Rec’d.
3rd and 1...guess we'll run the dime. Eesh.
by KaloPhoenix on Feb 13, 2012 8:53 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Best I could do with no budget
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Obviously the "game tape" source has no budget either. ;-)
3rd and 1...guess we'll run the dime. Eesh.
Great Read
Great info and read. Maybe someone at SBN can provide you with a Google Analytics report on the number of hits you article received. Bet it is higher than you expect.
There's a way to look at that... somewhere.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Very nice analysis by MN.
Really appreaciate the time taken to present a very detailed look at a key component of our team.
MN’s work brings me to an interesting question. If our DE’s are so good at Stopping the RUN and so woeful at pressuring the Passer then why did the Chiefs rank 26th against the Run and rank 6th against the Pass.
I agree with MN about relative strengths of both TJAx and Dorsey but don’t see it in Net Defensive Stats.
"You talkin' to me? You TALKIN' to me ?" - Travis Bickle
Teams were able to run on us when they had the lead to kill the clock
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 9:04 AM CST up reply actions
A few things
In the first half of the year teams were able to run to the outside on Stude’s side, as he had difficulty containing when a runner bounced outside.
Additionally, our DE’s issues as pass rushers are less of an issue, since they’re out most third downs.
Finally, I’m not sure how good Dorsey actually is against the run. Teams were able to run in the gap he and Gregg were supposed to control, as well as to the outside on Dorsey’s side.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Houston was starting from the beginning, right?
Officially. I know Studie was still in there some, but so was Houston. His rookie-ness hurt our run D early, along with Studie’s apparently un-defeatable reflex to crash inside whenever there’s an outside run.
Also, playing the Tebows twice will skew run/pass D statistics. And getting six interceptions in one game.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Houston was starting at first
But was generally dropping into coverage more than anything else. Stude was in there for around half the sacks until the DEN game.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
because of crennel
Hali and houston and the secondary doing its job. But when they were stoned ala Miami buffalo detroit nj jets games there was no rush anywhere and they lit up our defense.
by rickrock58 on Feb 13, 2012 9:29 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Wow, great post on T-Jax
Looking forward to your next post on ___________. Thanks for all the hard work/time you put in.
Stanzi: "If you don't love it, leave it! USA #1"
Oh... I've been so long forward to this!!!
Skitzo where you at? :) Ok.. now to actually reading the post.
Coffee, check. Brekkie, check. Dog, check. Work? Not today… so, on to the reading.
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 13, 2012 9:13 AM CST reply actions
Thanks. MN
Made my Monday morning, as there is no real news for Chief fans today. Great breakdown of T-jax, rec’d and love the in-depth nature of your posts. Couple of thoughts/questions.
What is the average number of sacks from the 20 3-4 DE’s ahead of Tyson? Are we talking an average of 3, 6, 9 more sacks?? If two more sacks put him in the top 10, then I really don’t have too much to complain about.
Would love to see Soliai (like many others here), and with a NT that requires more double teams, what does that do for T-jax’s bull rush? And maybe the right NT next to him gets him to the top 10 level for pass rushing by a DE.
Without pulling it up (no time right now)
I believe the league leader was Campbell at 9. Then there were a couple 7’s, some 5’s…
Again, without looking, I’d say the average of those above him was something like 4-5.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
at first glance
for the DE’s I would call 2-gappers (apples to apples comparison)…
in the most strict sense, most similar scheme…
1) Pernell McPhee, Baltimore 6 sacks
2) Jared Odrick, Miami 6
3) Marcell Dareus, Buffalo 5.5
4) Haloti Ngata, Baltimore 5
5) Randy Starks, Miami 4.5
6) Muhammad Wilkerson, NYJ 3
7) Brett Keisel , Pitt 3
8) Jarius Wynn , GB 3
9) Dwan Edwards, Buffalo 2.5
10) Wallace Gilberry, KC 2.5
with a BIG tip of the hat to the SF guys, who played out of their minds… but, I think their system is just different enough from KC’s that I left them off of my top 10 above
Justin Smith 7.5 sacks
Ray McDonald 5.5 sacks
forgot Cory Redding 4.5 sacks
but, you get the idea
4 is probably the average of the competant pass-rushing DEs in a 2 gap 3-4
That'd be about right
That does leave out pressures, hits, and batted passes though. All of which are “impacts.”
I’m not going to take the time to view the impact play numbers for those guys, but from what I saw it’s considerably higher.
I really wouldn’t care about the 1 sack if it came with 20 pressures, 10 hits, and 5 batted passes.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
sure...
I think the Chiefs DL probably did a decent job getting pressures and batted passes… I remember seeing Jackson, Dorsey, Gilberry, Bailey and even Gregg give chase a fair amount this year
The PFF stats indicate otherwise
But… those stats are hardly infallible, so you might be right. From what I saw, though, both Dorsey and T-Jax were largely ineffective, with T-Jax less so.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Hey, we're Chiefs fans
It keeps us happy :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
McPhee was just a situational guy like Gilberry
Are you sure Miami ran a pure 2 gap? Thought their DC ran a 2 gap NT, 1 gap DEs?
Yeah 49ers are a 1 gap team
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
Pitt/Balt/GB could all come into question as well
Pitt runs a 1 gap zone blitz
Balt ran that before, not sure what their DC ran last year
GB is a branch of the 1 gap zone blitz of Pitt
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
NE doesn't have the three guys they would need to run the traditional 2-gap like they did in their dynasty
They traded Seymour without anyone to even begin to replace his production and so now are in the “defensive line by committee of 310 lb. dudes” club
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
If Richard Seymour becomes another victim of OAK's cap moves
I say we snatch him up in a hearbeat. Huge upgrade over Dorsey.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Sweet merciful crap
that would be outstanding
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
BOOOOOOO!!!!
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Which proves your point
That his replacement rating is at least a 2. Add two or three sacks by O-lines needing to account for a beast of a NT (the keystone of a 3-4 front) and he is right in there. Again I appreciate the legwork, as it is easy to start believing the constant stream of complaints against Tyson.
The most impressive stat was 2nd most tackles with 2-400 fewer snaps played. Run stuffing isn’t as flashy as sacks, but you’d rather have a guy that forces long 3rd down situations for opposing offenses.
I was blown away by his "stops" count
I was never of the impression that he was making plays downfield, but didn’t realize he was stuffing plays that effectively.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for emphasizing this aspect
We all had the general sense that Jax was holding his own at the line. However, I too was pleasantly surprised to learn that not only is he capable of holding his ground against a lineman, but he is also capable of coming off to make the stop.
I've been rapping for about seveteen years okay? I don't write my stuff anymore I just kick it from my head you know what I'm sayin? I can do that. No disrespect but that's how I am.
Watching the tape confirmed it
Most of his tackles were made when he’d hold up his lineman (or linemen) and snag the runner as he went by.
He actually would’ve had a ton more stops, but teams just stopped running at him and Houston.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Nice - like the Asomugha argument
Didn’t get a lot of INTs cause people stopped throwing at him.
Loved your analysis of his “arm strength” and how he uses it in comparison to Dorsey and Gregg “bending” and using their body to push more than their arms – that was another huge point/factor that I had no clue was going on from just watching the games.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
That part was all Kalo
He knows way more about this stuff than I do, and was really helpful in telling me things to watch for.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Any time teams 'Stop' running at one side of the DL
That’s something that makes me happy.
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 13, 2012 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
Me too
Now if we can tighten up that weakside…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
Yep.
Which means (I think) getting rid of/trading Dorsey. We upgrade there and get a legit NT and blam! Nobody’ll know what hit them. I guess you can say that’s one positive that’ll come out of being as underrated everywhere, all the time, as we are.
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 13, 2012 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
I have thought of this earlier this offseason
who is the top rated 3-4 DE in the draft? And will he be around at 11?
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
Brockers (LSU) or Still (PSU) for a traditional 3-4 end.
Still is probably more of a strong-side TJax type. Or, for a riskier proposition, there’s Coples out of UNC. He’s big enough to be a 3-4 end, and he could definitely slide off a single blocker and pressure the passer, but I’m not sure he’s even heard of a 2-gap defense.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
The problem is that replacing Dorsey could be difficult
He’s not great, but he’s not bad either and is a decent run stuffer. We’d have to make sure we were getting someone who could do as well as he can against the run or we’d be taking a backwards step.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
And it takes time
for a drafted DE to develop and understand the game. TJ has had 3 years to get to this point, and the first season or two can be rough.
Nicely done, Rec'd just on having to suffer rewatching those games again
I’d double Rec this if I could, that had to be painful.
I feel like DJ was in the same conversation just a few years ago. A former 1st round pick who hadn’t lived up to his “1st round status”. But then RAC came here and all that’s history. Same could be said of Mario Williams and even Richard Seymore if I’m not mistaken. 3-4 DE’s take time to develope, even first round ones.
Although this post was about T-Jax, a reoccuring theme here is how inefficient Dorsey is in the 3-4. What would his replacement rating be at? Just curious.
Dx3: Draft David DeCastro
Mario was OLB in his short 3-4 experience
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
He was still being labeled a bust by many
for not living up to the hype early on tho right? That was the point I was going after. And it takes a while for a 3-4 DE to learn his position.
Dx3: Draft David DeCastro
He started in a 4-3 as DE but has always been pretty good
they didn’t move to a 3-4 until they brought in Wade Phillips as DC (this season). Phillips moved him to OLB and he was having a great year before he got injured (5 sacks in 5 games). Given a full season he will be a terror on the field – Wade is making him Houston’s Demarcus Ware, and doing a pretty good job of it so far.
I think Mario was scrutinized because he was the #1 overall and there was all that buzz over them taking him over Bush (which in hindsight was undeniably the right choice). He didn’t have a great rookie season, but still managed 4.5 sacks on what was then a pretty mediocre D.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
Pretty much this
He had good stats this year, but didn’t look that great standing up.
He got a lot of hate because he was taken over ‘’the cant miss next big thing’’ Bush
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
Not too bad for his first year in the system though
and his first time ever playing as OLB. I think he would have continued to progress as the season went on.
And yes, he certainly did get some flak for getting taken over Bush.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
Several times he looked lost/very slow due to being in a 2 point stance
However as all 3-4 OLBs they put their hand in the ground as a 4-3 DE during passing situations, so if he stays in Houston, it should work out well for them.
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Josh Chichester TE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Feb 13, 2012 4:02 PM CST up reply actions
See here for a complete breakdown of Dorsey. Bailey’s on there too.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
Not exactly a ringing endorsment for keeping Dorsey
and again, another great write up there as well. I’m all behind getting Bailey on the field in whatever role it takes to get him on the field. I’m also behind trading Dorsey and pursuing Peyton, while possibly drafting a guy like Osweiler to learn behind him. The pick we get for Dorsey would allow the room for a decision like that IMO. Well done again MN, keep those posts coming man!
Dx3: Draft David DeCastro
And while I come off harsh on Dorsey
He does his job most of the time against the run. Just not as well as T-Jax IMO
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
Seymour was a beast in year 2
Against the run and the pass
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Feb 14, 2012 1:28 AM CST up reply actions
Love it.
T-Jax and Houston are a phenomenal duo against the run.
Left side, strong side.
Do we go fetal and beg for mercy? Or do we pick up that broken piece of pipe laying on the ground and come up swinging? I choose pipe.
Sober (again) since January 10th, 2011.
Glad to see he is still grading out as Kalo had him at the end of his rookie campaign
I've been rapping for about seveteen years okay? I don't write my stuff anymore I just kick it from my head you know what I'm sayin? I can do that. No disrespect but that's how I am.
I'd have to look at that particular post...
But that may not bode as well…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
Oh, and excellent work man.
I've been rapping for about seveteen years okay? I don't write my stuff anymore I just kick it from my head you know what I'm sayin? I can do that. No disrespect but that's how I am.
Excellent post.
It also isn’t surprising that teams like to run at Hali. Almost every premier pass rusher gets run at in order to try and slow down their pass rush.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
True story
Gotta try to make him hesitate a little.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Annnd done.
Thanks MN for the post! As great as I thought it would be. Helluva read. I agree on T-jax and his improvement over the years. Especially this year. It would be phenomenal if he stopped (as you pointed out) doing the other stuff and more of the bullrush when called for it. Just bring that sack count up, and simultaneously adding QB pressure(s) would bully his presence even more.
I love the fact that when Houston really came into his own that the Strong Side became un-runnable against. Speaks volumes (me thinks).
I know there’s a long time to wait till FA/Draft is over and we have (hopefully) a new (and amazing) NT in place, but thinking about what the D-line could become with one, makes me salivate.
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 13, 2012 10:04 AM CST reply actions
Me too
Love me some Houston and T-Jax…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
its articles like this that get me fired up about the D
Its all coming together, man. we’re putting the finishing touches on our work of art. if we can keep carr our masterpiece if almost complete. I loved hearing that teams dont even attempt to run at houston and t-jax. knowing that opens up a whole new game plan for the master romeo.
Right on the money analysis MN. Rec'd
My son in law is an attorney and you remind me of him, with one exception…he is a Charger fan. Good Luck on your graduation and thanks for spending your spare time on us hapless Chiefs fans.
Chiefs 2011 rookie class proves better than 2010's WOW!!!
Sorry about the Charger fan in the family :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
From KPX:
Tyson Jackson: TJ had quite the expectations to live up to this season. He wasn’t the guy most wanted us to pick and has had a spotlight shone on him all season. Most will look at the numbers and say that he failed. However, 38 tackles (27 solo) and 2 PBU’s isn’t half bad for a 3-4 DE, especially considering he had 5 tackles halfway through. Most importantly, as the year went along, he really started to grasp where he needed to be in the run game. The passing downs weren’t his forte, as he typically had both the guard and tackle to deal with, as Vrabel was dropping into TE/RB coverage. As the year went along, DeMorrio Williams and DJ seemed to be making more and more stops…in no small part to TJ’s ability to tie up blockers. The naysayers really do have to remember that on most plays, TJ WAS the double teamed member of our front line. Dorsey was 1-uped more often than TJ, and Edwards was only holding one blocker. Vrabel was usually on pass coverage duty or was fighting through a blocking TE in the run game. Due to Edwards’ inability to hold another blocker (which is usually the strongside guard), TJ inherited that guard on top of the tackle. That’s an awful big feat for a rookie to handle, but he really showed he could towards the end of the year.
Strengths: Eating blockers. By far the best we had at staying put in the last half, holding two guys to himself, and allowing the ILBs and OLBs around him an easier path to the ballcarrier. He’s not going to hang the gaudy stats, but he’s not in the position to do so. He did his job in the last half of the season and made everyone else’s easier.
Weaknesses: Does not move to the outside well. On those occasions he gets 1-uped against a tackle, he prefers to go inside, relying on Vrabel for the outside contain. Numerous occasions have seen this backfire. When he does move outside, he seems to lose some of that strength and ability to hold his own. On passing downs, we’ve seen many QB scrambles up the middle because he’s working the outside path.
Players who benefited: Vrabel/Studebaker and Williams/DJ. You better believe those guys loved not having o-linemen all over them.
Final Grade: B-. Solid rookie campaign, whether it’s recognized or not. The last half of the year really seemed to click, and with a little more help in the middle, I think we’ll really see him shine. (Prior Grade: C-)
How has the lapse in his outside move not been detected in self-scouting? If the coaches see it as a necessary component of the defensive tactic, why does there seem to be little o,provement?
I've been rapping for about seveteen years okay? I don't write my stuff anymore I just kick it from my head you know what I'm sayin? I can do that. No disrespect but that's how I am.
That's an excellent question
Thanks for the the info.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
And go figure, he's pretty much got the same strengths/weaknesses.
They’ve just bumped up a few notches. Not sure why he’s still trying to rush from the outside. If Houston was dropping, I’d understand it to try and keep the QB in the pocket, but he tries to swim a little too often as well. SIDE NOTE: If you want to see something funny, watch his attempt at a swim move…pretty hilarious.
That said, TJax is second only to Tamba in his hand-fighting ability on this team. That has improved IMMENSELY since Master Kim came to town.
3rd and 1...guess we'll run the dime. Eesh.
by KaloPhoenix on Feb 13, 2012 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
I've already commented plenty, but wanted to say THANKS - HELLUVA POST!
There’s a reason this thing already has 35 recs and it’s not even 4 hours old.
Top notch stuff and highly informative – I’ve learned more about T.Jax while reading this than I ever would have otherwise.
Cheers – job well done.
Thanks. Deep breakdowns can be pretty dry, and I'm glad it wasn't too boring.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
Not at all
I’m one ADD mofo, so the fact that I made it through without spiraling off into something else is a testament to the quality of production.
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
Great post as always MN, only suggestion I can make
You should edit the post to add a link to the Dorsey/Bailey story that you reference. I had to click three different things to find it. I may have pulled something. : ) Rec’d.
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2012/1/5/2680087/kansas-city-chiefs-glenn-dorsey-allen-bailey
Mushin
I hope whatever you pulled will heal up well during the offseason and doesn’t make you injury prone in the future :)
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 13, 2012 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Isn't
pulling your co-worker’s groin in the office is generally frowned upon?
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
Galifianakis stand up?
I've been rapping for about seveteen years okay? I don't write my stuff anymore I just kick it from my head you know what I'm sayin? I can do that. No disrespect but that's how I am.
I work from home
it can be boring, but I know damn well who is pulling my groin. :)
by Ochophosphate on Feb 13, 2012 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
Will do when I get a minute
Good idea.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Awesome stuff and rec'd
I do think it’s time to trade Dorsey. We might get a third for him, and I like the idea BAMF has talked about, moving TJax to Dorsey’s side in front of Hali. Houston is playing well enough against the run, and having Berry back will help, too, that even if Bailey and/or Gordon or somebody else is a bit of a downgrade from Jackson in the running game it won’t show on the field, and they may be an upgrade rushing the passer. Jackson can hold double teams and free up Hali a bit more while stiffening the run on that side.
sooner or later, God'll cut you down...
Taking anything less than a 2nd for
One of the NFL’s best run stuffing 34 DEs (who is ironically playing out of his natural position) would be a bad move by Pioli. Dorsey is worth more than some of us would like to think.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
Dorsey is valuable
We need to (as you said) get value if we’re going to move him, and only do so if we believe someone can step in and defend the run almost as well.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
Watching Jackson rush the passer
Is like watching someone stuck in quick sand. The feet don’t really move but the arms flop around every where and no progress is made.
Run D is the key this year.
by cwebb44 on Feb 13, 2012 11:36 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Yeah, the "draft position" argument against TJax is pretty annoying, and needs to die already.
3 years after his class, let’s look at the top 10 players available (players taken after TJax) when our pick was up, and how they’ve done in the NFL so far, shall we?
Aaron Curry
Traded 2.5 years into his career for a 5th round pick. TJax is better.
Mark Sanchez
Little development, just doesn’t wow you as a 4th overall picked QB. Very mediocre. Rumors of Ryan wanting to replace him. Very Matt Cassel like, and we got him for a 2nd round pick. TJax was a better pick.
Andre Smith
Only played in 27 games out of an available 48. Only started 19. Known for being out of shape and injury prone his first year. TJax was a better pick
Darrius Heyward-Bey
One of the many reaches in the 2009 draft. Reaches were very common that year… might have something to do with the talent pool? Anyway, DHB was statistically the worst WR pick in the 1st round in 2009. Crabtree, Harvin, Maclin and Hakeem Nicks and Kenny Britt all had more yards through their first 3 years. Throw this out, because the Raiders are fucking morons. TJax was still a better pick though.
Eugene Monroe
Let me be honest, I haven’t really watched a lot of Jaguars games. I couldn’t tell you how well Monroe is doing. But he has played in 46 out of 48 games, so I’m gonna say he’s holding up well. But here’s the thing… we already had a LT. We weren’t taking Monroe, although it could have saved us a lot of grief at RT. We were moving to a 34 defense, and lacked legit 2 gap DEs. I’m calling TJax the better pick, but only because of positional need. Some of you guys bitch now about TJax being 3rd overall? Imagine if we took a RT 3rd overall.
BJ Raji
Ah, yes, the guy that makes everyone scream “but we could have had Raji”. Raji is no doubt a solid player. But statistically, TJax had a better year. TJax did much better against the run, wasn’t much worse in pass rush, and had more tackles than Raji, 33 more to be exact. But I get the whole “NT vs DE” argument, so I’m calling this a wash. That’s right. TJax progressed this year, and Raji may have taken a step back. It’ll be interesting to see how their careers finish out… for now TJax = Raji.
Michael Crabtree
Meh. Of the 6 WRs taken in the first that year, Crabtree is ranked 3rd in yards. Plus he’s a bit of a head case. Also has questionable character issues.TJax was a better pick.
Aaron Maybin
Primarily a rotation guy for the Jets. Started one game in the last 3 years. Played in 40 of 48. 6 sacks and 25 tackles. TJax was the better pick.
Knowshon Moreno
LOL. TJax was the better pick.
Brian Orakpo
One of the few gems of the 2009 draft. This guy has been crushing opposing offenses and RBs for 3 years. He would have been a GREAT grab over TJax, but a lot of things come into play. How much has the development of TJax and Dorsey helped out Hali and DJ, and now Houston? I’d say a lot. At the time we still needed a 2 gap DE, and TJax was easily the best available in 2009. But Orakpo was the better pick, I do believe.
So of those 10, TJax was an outright better pick than 7 of them, ties with Raji, and is a wash with Monroe. The only player I would take over him out of those 10 are Orakpo. IMO, TJax was a great pick, considering the talent pool available for that historically shallow draft class.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
by Tomahawk29 on Feb 13, 2012 11:36 AM CST reply actions 7 recs
well done. Rec'd
As I mentioned above, Raji rated on PFF as the absolute worse DT/NT in the entire league. Now obviously even PFF stats don’t tell the whole story, but it’s certainly an argument to make against him being the guy we “missed out on.”
Orakpo would’ve been a great pick. But with Hali/Houston I’m not too worried about that…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
Great analysis BTW, MN.
The TJax hate needs to die. 3 years after the fact and I can legitimately say Scott Pioli made his first draft pick with the Chiefs a great one. This D wouldn’t be where it is today if not for TJax.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
Thanks.
And I’m with you on that stuff.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
Easily a top3 MNchiefsfan writeup
and up there across all writeups.
Coming from a “casual fan” :)
Thanks. And you're not THAT casual if you're on AP :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
That post was truly exceptional
Well done sir, I applaud your efforts
We're the same team as last year, except incredibly better, and with new players.
Thanks Flowers. Gotta get up to the bar you "frequent" contributors set...
Since I’m popping in more rarely with posts I gotta try and make them worth the wait…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 13, 2012 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Eh, probably should've been a fanshot.
(and rec’d)
It's no fun if I have to explain it.
by TRSChief on Feb 13, 2012 12:29 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Finally.
Information about TJ that is factual rather than uninformed opinions. I just hope the TJ haters read this post if for nothing else, to make them rethink their position on this player. As for opinions……..I don’t believe we’ve seen his ceiling. JH is only going to help his production. The same going the other way as well (TJ is going to make JH a good LB).
"We couldn't beat the Chiefs, but we damn near killed their horse"
John Madden 1975 Chiefs-42 Raiders-10
Very well done, Mr. MNchiefsfan!!!
Thanks much to you, Kalo, and Steve. It’s so nice to read good fact based analyses of the Chief’s players instead of the too emotional and irractional rant. Please keep up the excellent work. Glad you’re smart enough and able to take some time away from your law studies. I’m also glad that you and too few others take the time to review games and base your analyses and opinions on more than gametime viewing or what they hear others say. After watching and reviewing the Chief’s games multple times, I’ve had the same opinion of Jackson’s play this past season. Again, guys, keep up the excellent work.
Thanks again!
Wow, that was a great read!
Thanks so much for taking the time to do this analysis! Now every time I watch T-Jax on a passing down, I’ll be the geek yelling “Bull rush, Tyson! Bull rush!!!” =)
This pretty much kills my Hightower crush.
I’m pretty sure we will get a NT and I’ve been thinking that Hightower as a replacement for Belcher would put us over the top defensively. After reading this extraordinary post and realizing how TJ and Houston stop the run, I can’t see a MLB on their side being such a priority anymore.
Belch deserves another year.
This was only his 2nd year starting, and has shown good development. He hasn’t hit his ceiling yet. ILB is not enough of a need to ignore QB, NT, and RB with our firsts. Although I’m not sure there are many viable NT options by the 11th/12th pick.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
agreed about Belcher and NT
I don’t see ILB, NT being viable #1 pick options.
or really #2 pick options
I think this will be an offense-heavy draft
Rec'd But with a Question
Let’s say we were to lose TJax due to injury in a Berry/Moeaki/Charles kind of way.
1. Using your same scale, how badly would we miss him
2. Who else in the NFL would you say he’s playing parallel to (Just to kind of see who it would be equivalent to losing)
3. What makes him appear to be so subpar to the naked eye?
There are two kinds of worries - those you can do something about and those you can't. Don't spend any time on the latter.
Hmmm...
1) I think we’d miss him less than Berry and Charles but more than Moeaki. Teams would be able to vary their rushing attack a lot more and attack both sides of our line.
2) I don’t follow other teams very closely (no time). But PFF-stats-wise, T-Jax grades out very similarly to Devito of the NYJ.
3) I don’t believe he does appear subpar when watched objectively. Most often, people watch a successful run and blame the D-line in general. It doesn’t help when one already has an opinion before watching. Generally, a casual observer will see what he’s looking for.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
he's not an every down player.
he’s a liability in passing situations, which is why Gilberry gets those snaps.
the reality is he’s got a monster contract for a situational player. 2012: 2.5 mil, 5.5 in misc bonus (could be a 8 mil. cap hit) 2013 its 3.2, 11.5 mil. misc bonus (14.72 mil cap hit) 2014 3.935 mill (3.95 mil cap hit)
If we were in the same area code of the spending limit and needed some cap room he’s a guy we should be looking to unload.
Terrible idea
Unload Dorsey way, way, way before T-Jax.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Well, looks like you don't need my lonely little rec.
I think TJax is right where he belongs, moving large men where they don’t want to go and preventing from from going where they do want to go.
Dorsey, I remember seeing him play for LSU, and it seemed like he was at his most asskickingest when the other team was trying to get away from him. Face to face with a 6’-4" lineman, I suspect that his legs simply aren’t long enough to step around that guy. I hope to see him play in a system where he gets to move in space and chase plays down instead of playing patty cake with O linemen.
I also agree with the guy(s) who said the bull rush is too tiring to do every play. Even with limited snaps, running against somebody who’s pushing back is one of the most tiring things you can do.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I'll rec it...
with one gripe. If you’re going to plagiarise… " yeah he makes a lot of tackles, but they are all 5 yards down field…"You could at least give me a footnote. Ok, maybe I’m confused, but if he wasn’t being subbed for so much, and I can’t mouth Gilberry…I think you should have only researched the last three games. The first 13 didn’t count. We were under the influence of Haley. good work.
I'll add my Rec'd!! to a great post MN!
This post is one of the things I love the most about AP – I learn more all the time about the details of this fabulous game of football!!
Great job breaking it down!
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...
Thanks WorL :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Excellent read,MN
Watching all those snaps had to of been time consuming,but it was well worth it. Gave me info on TJax I had no clue about.
I just would like one more year for me to fully label TJax. Seems he is getting better, I just want to see a little more from him.
I think the surprise that he was drafted at #3 , has people really expecting greatness or bust. But maybe there is greatness there and we are looking at it all wrong. This breakdown shows that TJax maybe helping more then we all knew and may very well be a big part of this defense going foward.
With that being said, I would love to see Houstons breakdown. Thats a player I am excited about. Thanks for the read!
by TheScreenName on Feb 13, 2012 11:11 PM CST via mobile reply actions

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