My Assessment of Pioli
by etp_stl on Jan 1, 2012 11:22 PM CST
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I won't pretend to believe that I am qualified as a talent-evaluator, so I the floor will certainly be open for dissenting opinions at the end here. However, I believe that our new GM has had enough time to allow for an assessment of the state of his decisions. I admit that I am somewhat disappointed with the man compared to the myth that surrounded him leading to his hiring. While I don't believe he has been an utter failure, I do believe many of his decisions certainly are open to criticism. It is nice to be a relevant team again, but the Chiefs play in a division that lacks a power-house team like the Steelers, Patriots, or Ravens. I would like to think that the right, smart decisions over the last three years should have made them serious playoff contenders by this point.
After the jump, let's take a look at the criticisms I see to this point:
- I see a failure to develop a cohesive offensive line after 3 FAs and a draft pick. Branden Albert has always been a LT that you wish you could move to RT. Ryan Lilja seems to be out of place for a team that presents as a run-first offense, as does an aged Weigmann. Richardson has been overmatched at RT and is probably no better than a rotational backup. Asamoah has been a success, and hopefully Hudson is on his way there, too. Until the final OT and OG positions are solidified, I think this team will struggle offensively, regardless of the skill talent provided.
- I was disappointed with his decision to bring in coaches that decided to play a 3-4 defensive front when his initial personnel were best designed for a 4-3. Admittedly, if you're going to make the switch you have to do it some time, but I would think you would make that decision based on having at least some of the DL and LB talent that best fit that scheme. They have made great strides, but I feel it delayed the unit's development for a year or two. This change without the personnel already in place has resulted in a seemingly never-ending search for a NT and the right types of LBs for the scheme. Houston is starting to look good opposite Hali, and it seems as though Derrick Johnson has finally blossomed. Hopefully they can find that other ILB (maybe Siler is the guy) and their franchise NT because the failures against the run keep this defense from being truly elite.
- He has provided some good pieces through the draft, but I was still more than a little bit disappointed in the 2010 2nd round choices of McCluster and Arenas. Arenas has proven to be incapable of being a significant factor for the defense, so you end up with a very high draft pick used on a returner. McCluster is still a complementary piece, as well. He has a terrific skill set, but he can't be a major focal point of an offense. He is a poor man's Sproles or Bush, and those aren't guys that you build an offense around. They are luxuries that are added to a solid offensive unit to push them over the top. I would have been okay with burning one of these two picks on a specialty/complementary player such as one of these guys, but I think it showed poor judgement to select both with such valuable picks. Couple that with Tyson Jackson, which has to be considered a poor value pick at this point, and he's wasted some valuable picks. Berry, Kendrick Lewis, Moeaki, Asamoah, McCluster, and Bailey have looked good to great. Houston, Hudson, Powe, and Baldwin have a good chance to be important pieces in the future, as well. That's decent in the draft for his tenure, even if he didn't always get the best value for the player.
- I think he's been most poor in his FA selections. I thought he over-payed for Matt Cassel at the time he brought him to KC after a very small body of work in the NFL. It smacked very much to me of the desperation act that brought Elvis Grbac to town several years ago. I guess Vrabel was an alright throw-in when getting a starting QB, but I don't think his value on the field was very high during his time in KC. Steve Breaston did not present as a difference-maker this year by any means. Lilja, Weigman, and Richardson have not really solidified the OL, which still struggles to pass block and open holes in short yardage situations. Shaun Smith was a pretty good DL last year, but then Pioli set him aside to bring in Gregg. Gregg clearly didn't provide the strong presence at the NT that a good 3-4 requires, and this defense continues to struggle at stopping the run on a regular basis. Throw in Chris Chambers, and Pioli's approach to FA looks more like dumpster-diving than value-buying. The best GMs know the difference.
Well, those are my views on the topic. What do you think? I think overall our defense needs to learn to stop the run if they want to take up a position in the elite class within the NFL. However, an average offense would have had this team as AFC West Champs this year. I believe Orton is a better option at QB than Cassel, but more importantly I think we need some serious competition for the starting QB position in training camp next year. We've seen decent things out of Cassel (though few and far between, IMO). Orton has had some good moments. Palko is done. What does Stanzi have? Can you bring in a guy like Matt Flynn, Kellen Clemens, or T.J. Yates (a backup that has shown some talent this year) to compete for the starting and backup positions? Is there a developmental guy in the draft that looks better than Stanzi? I think the QB position needs to be solved pretty quickly. A true franchise QB could be the difference in a division that really only has one (Rivers).
Thanks for reading my rambling.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Arenas I think has played great
He is a nickel corner and I think he played really well this season. He played great against Patriots. Also, I think Pioli has drafted reasonably well during his time at KC. His worst draft by far is his first draft where we drafted Tyson Jackson. However, I think Tyson Jackson has played fine this year, but will always be considered a bust since he was the #3 pick which he had no business being drafted that high. Furthermore, the last 2 drafts Pioli in my mind has drafted really well.
Your point about Arenas is my issue with him.
A guy that tops out as a nickel corner is not worth a 2nd round pick, IMO. That’s not good value for him, as your best nickel better be able to start in event of an injury. He doesn’t have that cover ability. I do believe that Pioli has drafted reasonably well. I think he has utterly failed in FA both in the guys he has brought in and the number of areas he didn’t address despite having the cap space to do it.
He made the play to save the game today
by Steve_Chiefs on Jan 1, 2012 11:57 PM CST up reply actions
I don't have a short memory.
I’m talking about value for the draft position. Tyson Jackson is a decent player, but he wasn’t worth a #3 overall pick and the opportunity cost we paid for him. I feel the same way about Arenas. He’s a decent player, but he isn’t a good value in the 2nd round. For a rebuilding team, I thought it was a wasted pick at the time and I still do. I expect a GM to be able to identify value, and I think he failed in the 2nd round of 2010.
failed picks do not make game changing plays
nor stick on most rosters for 3 years either
by Steve_Chiefs on Jan 2, 2012 12:14 AM CST up reply actions
Wasted and failed aren't the same thing.
I’m saying that I believe there could have been better value guys picked at one of those two spots. I’m not saying he’s been awful in the draft, and I’m not saying that either Arenas or McCluster are without value. I’m saying that he could have done more with those picks.
we had been flailing around on returners for years since Dante
He ended that with those picks, we don’t need return specialists and as far as I know that was Arenas 1st fumble on a return as a Chief
by Steve_Chiefs on Jan 2, 2012 12:19 AM CST up reply actions
Do you really think return specialists, ....
and two of them at that, were the most important needs for the Chiefs at the time and worth spending 2 2nd round picks? I don’t. Sorry, but I think we’re going to agree to disagree on that one. I’m still more concerned with his FA record than his draft record.
But we got return specialists and
specialists players for other parts of the team.
Would we have won todays game without Arenas/McCluster
no we would not have
by Steve_Chiefs on Jan 2, 2012 12:28 AM CST up reply actions
As I said, ...
we’re not going to see eye to eye on this one. No big deal. You think I’m criticizing the individual players. I’m talking about the overall opportunity cost of the pick. The question is how many other wins you have if one of those two picks are used on a less specialized player? That’s the point. I don’t lament having these guys on the team, nor would I cut them now that they’re here. I’m concerned about the next draft and whether or not I believe Pioli will optimize the value of the picks he executes. Maybe he will. You aren’t going to hit on every pick, but I would value the picks differently.
Last year's draft was amazing for "opportunity costs"
if you remember. He got Houston, Stanzi, and Powe, players everyone here wanted, at later rounds than anyone here ever expected.
"An atheist is a man who watches a Notre Dame - Southern Methodist University game and doesn't care who wins." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
by electriclight on Jan 2, 2012 8:14 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How can you say we wouldn't have won without Dex and Arenas
when you have no idea who we would’ve drafted instead to help this team? Going into the 2010 draft we had several major needs (at starting positions) and we went with luxury picks. No matter how you slice it, it’s difficult to justify.
I don’t think they were bad picks because both players are helping the team, but you make it sound like those were the 2 best picks we could’ve made.
by ChiefsFetish on Jan 2, 2012 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
There was not much value at all when the Chiefs were picking at #3
Pioli did all he could to try and try that pick but no one would offer anything. so he took tyson
Dexter McCluster
We are in Nickel more then 50% of the time
With all these passing teams now in the NFL having a good nickel corner is becoming really important. He held Wes Welker to 2 catches for 22 yards.
That's one game.
Give me his body of work that makes you feel he is an elite player. I believe 2nd round players need to become elite players. I would have been okay with the flier on either McCluster or Arenas that year (I would have been happier with McCluster), but I believe it was irresponsible to take two specialty players when we had so many holes to fill.
we could have kept the previous KR/PR specialists
would that make you happy?
who were they anyway
by Steve_Chiefs on Jan 2, 2012 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
McCluster and Arenas were key players
this year when our RB and DB positions became seriously thin.
"An atheist is a man who watches a Notre Dame - Southern Methodist University game and doesn't care who wins." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
by electriclight on Jan 2, 2012 8:19 AM CST up reply actions
I think Breaston, Gregg, Gaither, McClain and Siler were solid FA signings.
Not spectacular, but solid. That one got hurt, one was misused and one hardly played at all is not his fault.
Kansas City Chiefs: Undefeated in 2012, baby!
I don't agree with all of these.
McClain has been solid. Breaston probably could do more, but Bowe is still the only difference-maker at the WR position. I’m gonna blame the NT most of the time when our defense gets run on so easily. Gaither was brought in and then cut. I guess we’re blaming Haley for that one? He certainly gets a mulligan on Siler. It still didn’t add to the team at the end of the day, and he still had money available to make up for the loss.
Most of us expected Breaston to collect around 500 yards
He got 776. He came here to add to our woeful wideout group. Without him, what would our WR group be like? Bowe is great, Baldwin was not good (yet), Urban was awful, Copper was bleh, Horne….seriously? I think getting Breaston was key to getting the pressure off Bowe, Baldwin didn’t scare anybody.
It's Orton-Mania in Kansas City!
My issue was more that adding Breaston didn't really add any more points to the board.
He added to the group, but at the end of the day he and Baldwin were billed as guys that were going to impact the scoreboard. The only true measure of improvement on the offense is in the point totals, and we didn’t get better there. That isn’t Breaston’s fault, per se. It’s the reason I say the FA signing of him wasn’t that big of an impact on the team. I went overboard by claiming that he wasn’t that good of a player. Breaston is a good player.
If pioli resigns
Bowe, Carr, McClain, and Orton.
We will be in great shape when all our injured players come back healthy (hopefully)
Think about it, just adding Berry to our pretty dominant defense and adding Charles to a very talented offense definitely makes us a dominant team in the AFC West.
I just think our offense now needs a new OC to be much more creative/smarter than running mccluster and jones up the middle for 2 yards/ jones to the outside. Not to mention the incredibly frequent play of delayed handoff draw play to mccluster.
I was impressed that the drawplay worked two or three times in the first half yesterday...
Can’t believe Coach Fox and Coach Allen let that happen, lol.
Of course, it was as effective as a kick in the knee in the second half…some things never change.
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills/
One man gathers what another man spills
by go_saleaumua on Jan 2, 2012 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
And
I think AFC West is a much tougher division than a lot of people think it is these days.
Back in the days of Croyle, Orton, Russell, and Rivers, Chargers were the only team that were deservedly feared, but today Chiefs Chargers Raiders and Broncos are tough, smashmouth, grind it out teams that would take a huge toll out of any franchise. Pioli has his work cut out for him.
I disagree.
All four of these teams have ability, but every one of them beat themselves more frequently than the other team beat them. The Chargers are a mess that have enough talent remaining to win some games. If they could execute on either side of the ball consistently they would have walked with the division. The Raiders have a ton of talent, but they fail themselves through penalties and turnovers all the time. Again, there is no reason they should be sitting at home right now based on their talent. The Denver Broncos have very little offensive talent. Their defense saved their bacon most of the year, and the mediocre teams they played couldn’t seem to put them away. The Chiefs are pretty good defensively, but they ultimately can’t stop the run. Despite that, if they could move the ball and put up even 20-24 points per game they would be Champs right now.
The entire division is made of equally good and flawed teams. Pioli could position us quickly to dominate this division.
by etp_stl on Jan 2, 2012 12:00 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Disagree
AFC West has always tended to draft and play guys very physically. Defenses are very punishing even if they are giving up alot of points. Yes, AFC West teams do tend to beat themselves, but the players take more punishment than any other division in my opinion which can be seen through the most heated rivalries and smashmouth defenses. Which division’s defense has more punishing and grinding hits than Chiefs, Chargers, Raiders, and Broncos?
None by far. thats the answer.
And
its kind of AFC West’s character throughout NFL history. Each team smashes one another in the trenches, and attempts to run through one another.
We have the most physical/heated rivalries in our division and the closest records within one another in football by far.
Come on.
You’re right. Baltimore, Cincy, and Pittsburgh have paper defenses. Nobody beats up on each other in that division, right? I’ll agree with what Steve_Chiefs just posted, too. How about the NFC East? No smash-mouth ball gets played there, either, right?
The Broncos have had a paper defense until this year. So did the Raiders until recently. The Chiefs defense wasn’t considered smash-mouth by anybody 2 years ago. We were as poor a tackling defense as I’ve seen under Vermeil and Edwards, and we weren’t a grinding offense, either. You’re clouded by this past year.
Not really
you clouded by this year. Im referring to history here
55-47-2 against the raiders
55-47 against the broncos
53-49-1 against the chargers
If you watched afc west this past decade, you would know other than the chargers who everyone was handedly beaten by, it was a grueling, grind it out game.
WTH does the record tell you about the play on the field?
I’ve watched the Chiefs for 20+ years. I’ve seen them as a grinding team when Marty was here. I saw the muddled attempts to be a grinding team when Gunther was here. I saw absolutely no sign of a grinding team when DV was coaching here. I saw an horrendously bad tackling team when Herm was here. Sure, the scores were low and close, but that wasn’t because of the grueling nature of play. It was because of the piss-poor execution of the offenses in Oakland and KC over the better part of the last decade. The Broncos defense was anything but hard-hitting during the last several years of Shanahan, and that didn’t improve a great deal under McDaniels. San Diego has crushed the AFC West for most of the last decade because they were the only ones playing that kind of grueling game on both sides of the ball. They’ve lost some of that on both sides in the last couple of years.
if you
watched the 20+ years i cannot believe you deny the fact that afc west has the most intense and punishing rivalry. Obviously there are times when franchises suck and are good. For example the Bengals were a good team in the 80s, but this past decade they were horrible. Just like the Chiefs were horrible under Herm Edwards.
Still when Chiefs D sucked as you say under Vermeil and Edwards, they still went 9-11 against the Chargers. Its the closeness of records that breeds this rivalry. When you watch these games, the hatred is always there regardless of which team appears to be dominantly better that year.
But you are talking about how punishing the play is.
That hasn’t been there recently. Sure, the rivalries are good, but there is no more punishing play than Baltimore-Pittsburgh in all of football. Nothing in the AFC West this year even approximated it, and this has been the most usage of ground-and-pound offenses and hard-hitting defenses that the AFC West has seen in years.
The sell-out blitzes of the NFC East from Philadelphia and New York result in a punishing style of play, even when the scores are higher. The Cowboys have had a defense that has been punishing on QBs and RBs alike for quite a while. Those rivalries go back to when the AFC West teams were AFL teams or didn’t exist. I love the Chiefs and I appreciate the rivalries, but you’re clearly over-selling the AFC West. These teams haven’t made any real impact on playoff football since Marty was in San Diego, and they haven’t been to the big dance since Oakland was getting beaten up by the Bucs. The West just isn’t that tough right now.
ept ... totally agree on your AFC West assessment and overview ... well done and said
also, very good to see you back on the board :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Glad to be back around.
Life gets busy, and I think I get addicted to discussing this stuff with you guys.
Sometimes we drink the Kool-Aid pretty heavy around here, don’t we?
The AFC West has not scared anybody else in the league for quite a while. Sure, SD got talked about every year, but their playoff failures have reached the point of absurdity. I don’t think anybody took KC seriously last year, and there certainly isn’t anybody scared of Denver this year. It will be interesting to see what SD does with A.J. Smith and who they entice to coach. Denver being saddled with Tebow is probably going to stall their development for a couple of years. Oakland has to learn how to win. Is Palmer ever going to be the QB he was early in Cincy, or is he just a guy that had a couple of good seasons once?
It seems that the front office that makes the best assessments over the next couple of years is going to dominate this division and the others are going to continue to flounder, doesn’t it?
What if we sign Matt Flynn
I thought he looked really good today. He seems to be more talented then Matt Cassel and Kyle Orton, he has a stronger arm. Today in the cold and with some small snow flurries he threw a deep ball from the 39 to the 17 and while he doesn’t have the strongest arm he can make all the throws.
I'd advocate him for a spot in the competition.
I wouldn’t just hand him the keys to the offense, though. IMO, he has great talent around him on a team that is playing extremely well. Elvis Grbac looked that way for San Francisco before we gave him a lot of money. Matt Cassel looked that way for New England before we gave him a lot of money. Scott Mitchell and A.J. Feely both turned a couple of cameo starts into big contracts from Miami way back when. I think you bring in a bunch of guys with that kind of talent and pit them in a training camp rumble for the position.
Exactly my concern with Flynn.
If we ran a WCO, or brought in a Green Bay coach (like Philbin) who would implement their hybrid WCO, it’d be one thing. But we aren’t…
If we’re going to pit a bunch of maybe’s together for a training camp throwdown, draft a Tannehill/Foles type, re-up Orton for a two or three year deal with incentives (and out clauses galore), and let Cassel, Orton, Stanzi, and Rookie fight it out for the top spot.
These cats already get what we’re trying to achieve in the E-P system, and have some familiarity with the offensive talent on the field.
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills/
One man gathers what another man spills
by go_saleaumua on Jan 2, 2012 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree for the most part
Though the whole Haley Fiasco has soured me on Pioli. I see what he had in mind for most all of the decisions to date.
The Chiefs are a few players away from dominating the AFC West and possibly the AFC itself.
QB is one of those positions and it is not really Pioli’s fault that Cassel did not work out, now if Pioli persists in thinking Cassel is the answer that is on him going forward. we can move forward with what we have as long as there is no insistence from the GM to make prior plans work regardless of time spent. Cassel is clearly the plan B now.
With what exactly do you disagree, Steve?
I have read a lot of your stuff, so I am genuinely interested in your opinion. I think Cassel is his fault because of the compensation he gave for him and the large contract extension he gave him despite the small body of work. He handed him the starting job because of that contract without any competition or proven body of work. I have to blame the guy that hired him for that. What am I missing there?
How do you defend his FA record? I have seen some big flops through that avenue, but which big successes am I missing to balance those out? I haven’t gone through each, but I’m looking for the real impact FAs he’s brought in. Thomas Jones has provided a decent complementary RB and McClain has had value, but I don’t really see them as being such impact guys to outweigh some of the other moves.
The body of work from a 2-14 team as he received it from Peterson
We had to date 4-5 players that have lasted the last 3 years that were not Pioli/Haley guys.
Pioli made decisions to better the team (whether they were incremental or leaps in talent)
Cassel was better than Thiggy/Huard, Berry was a leap, Jackson was a Brick in the wall. All were part of the Chiefs rebuild
by Steve_Chiefs on Jan 2, 2012 12:25 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe I came off wrong, or maybe we're just fixating on the bad.
I’m not running Pioli out of town, but I think there are places he needs to improve. Most importantly, I would like to see better quality players coming from FA. I think the draft is doing okay, but I question if he’s best utilizing his early round picks. Berry was a great pick. Jackson was a poor pick for the position. Baldwin still has a chance, but I need a big-time play-maker from a 1st round WR. My feelings on McCluster and Arenas are well documented. It’s not that I believe that Jackson, McCluster, and Arenas are worthless or should be replaced. It’s that I think you need to get guys that are at least in the discussion for the Pro-Bowl from those positions in the draft. I don’t agree that Cassel was a significant upgrade to Huard, and he certainly wasn’t so much better as to justify the difference in their salaries.
The Chiefs need to hit on almost every pick based on the past years of drafting
whether it is a return specialist our starting QB he has to make the roster for the Chiefs to be successfull
True.
The roster was pretty bereft of talent before he got here. We needed a lot of holes to be filled. Maybe it’s just a matter of Pioli choosing to fill some of those holes in a different order from what I would. We haven’t had a lot of real busts under him. Consistent players will get you there, but it might take a little longer than if he consistently optimized the value of his picks. I definitely get your point here, though.
Not going to find 64 probowlers from every draft. Sorry, unrealistic expectations.
It’s that I think you need to get guys that are at least in the discussion for the Pro-Bowl from those positions in the draft.
"An atheist is a man who watches a Notre Dame - Southern Methodist University game and doesn't care who wins." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
by electriclight on Jan 2, 2012 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
I said "in the discussion."
Not every team is going to make good decisions. Not every player is going to fulfill their expectations and potential. When you’re drafting as high as the Chiefs were for a while, and you have multiple #2s in one year, then I want at least a couple of players that are in that discussion. McCluster and Arenas aren’t that, to me. They are good accent pieces to have, but the greatest side dishes in the world don’t make the dinner better if the turkey’s undercooked.
I think you'd be disappointed with every GM in the league if that was your expectation of every high 2nd rounder
Just looking at the top 10 of the 2nd round from 2010, and none of those guys are in the discussion save for Gronkowski. Hell, even from the bottom of the first….
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
Didn't think I had to repeat the "in the discussion" since I quoted it.
Even with that distinct qualifier, I think you are setting the bar way too high.
"An atheist is a man who watches a Notre Dame - Southern Methodist University game and doesn't care who wins." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
by electriclight on Jan 2, 2012 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
you're welcome, and stop breaking it!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
You thought Breaston wasn't a good enough pick up?
When you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail.
Jamaal above all. #25 ftw.
CHIEFS WILL!
I think that Breaston hasn't lived up to his contract to date.
He hasn’t stretched the defense in the games I’ve seen. We had a possession receiver in Bowe. Breaston hasn’t made a serious impact.
Not really
breaston’s fault. We play Cassel and Palko for 13 games. No WR is going to get close to the number of looks/throws from them than if they had a competent QB
The same GM brought those QBs in, right?
One of those came in via trade but was effectively a FA pick-up. If he thought he didn’t have a QB, then why bother bringing in a WR? Fix the QB issue first.
Hey
i was on the get cassel out of here bandwagon throughout last year. I thought we needed a QB too. But as a professional GM, I think he needed to give this year at least, and honestly all we need is everyone healthy, new OC, the draft (which will bring in RT), and a QB to make us a top 5 team on paper.
We have one of the best LB corp, best safety starters with Berry and Lewis, best RB in JC, one of the most talented WR corp, one of the best punters, and one of the best CB starters. We are going in the right direction. I believe we should reserve judgement on what he does this offseason.
professional GM's make mistakes, too
they just get paid a lot more to do that than we amateur GM’s
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
We weren't a top 15 team this year, so ....
that’s pretty good optimism to believe in that big of a jump to top 5. I don’t believe we have one of the most talented WR corps in the NFL. Do you really believe that our WRs match up equally with NO and GB? Our LB corps has been good, but one of the best is probably overselling it a bit. Berry and Lewis will be an outstanding S pairing, and we have no need at RB. We’re very good at our starting CBs, but we could use some depth there.
Pioli didn’t just show up last year. He’s been here long enough to evaluate him. I’m not talking about choosing whether or not we fire him. I simply think it’s of value to take a clear look at what we have and don’t have in him. He’s not a deity, and I’ve watched crap football in the state of Missouri all I want. I want to look at whether or not we can actually win a SB in KC. Why can’t we take a look at that?
We are looking at it. And most of us feel pretty good about the direction of the team, especially the defense.
You are skewing everything negatively. Two Pro Bowl LBs aren’t enough to impress you with Houston coming on strong? Shaun Smith wasn’t set aside, he was a FA who wanted to start and get paid. Breaston and McClain were fine pickups in a messed up offseason. And so far we haven’t lost any of our own top-shelf free agents.
"An atheist is a man who watches a Notre Dame - Southern Methodist University game and doesn't care who wins." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
by electriclight on Jan 2, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
andrew33 said we "should reserve judgement."
That’s what I meant when I asked why we couldn’t evaluate it. The reply feature has a purpose.
I’m not skewing everything negatively, but the post was specifically stated to be talking about “criticisms.” I’ve said repeatedly that I think his drafting is above average, but I question whether he maximizes the value out of the top rounds. I think he drafts solid, and specifically I think he drafts well in the middle rounds. That’s an incredibly valuable skill to have as a GM.
I’m not fascinated with his FA moves, but I probably went a little far in proclaiming them crap. I just think he’s been below average there.
Yes, I think you’re overselling the LB corp. I think they’re above average, but they have had serious bouts with tackling issues. This team just let Willis McGahee run through them like a warm knife through butter. That doesn’t bode well for the LBs, and we tackled very poorly. That isn’t the first team to run on us that easily this year. Pro-Bowls get assigned for sacks. I judge LBs on their play against the run and covering TEs and RBs in the passing game just as heavily.
Criticism doesn’t necessarily equate to being unhappy. There is more than enough positive vibe going around about what he’s done well, but I think that there is a lack of objectivity going on. I am willing to play devil’s advocate whenever I see that, and I think there are valid opportunities for criticism on this team. I think the LBs and DBs are the least of our worries, as the offense kept us from the playoffs. I’m just not that quick to proclaim them the greatest ever, as it seems some are.
You're completely wrong about Breaston
You need a QB to stretch a defense. But the guy pretty much catches everything that comes his way, and moves the chains. If he played for the Saints he’d be every bit as good as Lance Moore, if not better. When he stepped in for the Cardinals due to injury to other WRs, he was a 1000-yard receiver with Warner throwing to him.
What have you been watching, exactly, but Cassel failing miserably time and again at putting his WRs in positions to make plays?
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
Everybody was a 1000-yd receiver with Warner throwing to him.
Az Hakim was a 1000-yd receiver with Warner throwing to him. A great QB can make an average receiver look very good. Playing the 3rd WR with guys like Boldin and Fitzgerald can make an average receiver look very good, too. He catches what’s thrown his way, so that’s good. That’s kind of the definition of a possession receiver, though. This team needs a guy with a different skill-set from Bowe. I don’t think Breaston is bad to have, but he didn’t suddenly improve this offense by replacing Chris Chambers with him. The same QB was throwing to Breaston and Bowe. Bowe had a very good year and made the team better. Breaston didn’t make a huge difference over the guy that was here before him.
Breaston hasn't had more of an impact than Chambers?
Ridiculous.
You want to talk differing skill-sets? Breaston is the very definition of a slot receiver. Accelerates well, runs precise routes, creates separation, and catches everything thrown his way. Bowe is a bruiser, tends to round off his routes, uses his big body to screen DBs, doesn’t really create a lot of separation, and runs very well with the ball in his hands.
I think you have this idea that Breaston should have been a deep threat, a burner… he’s not that guy, and never really has been that guy.
Top 10 defense and another trip to the playoffs!
Tamba Hali, NFL Sack Leader, 2011
You said it better than I.
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills/
One man gathers what another man spills
by go_saleaumua on Jan 2, 2012 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
I'll concede on Breaston.
I got a little overzealous against him. Sorry. Sometimes my argumentative side wins out over my logical side. You are correct about him, AS.
You are just flat out wrong on that one buddy
Breaston is a huge step up from Chambers
Dexter McCluster
Breaston has speed, but he's more of an intermediate receiver, a run-after-the-catch guy.
Did you envision him as a burner? I didn’t…
I still like the signing and think he brings a lot of value to this team.
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills/
One man gathers what another man spills
by go_saleaumua on Jan 2, 2012 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
I dug in stronger than I intended on Breaston.
I let the argument lead me to a stronger position against him than I meant for it to. He’s fine as a slot guy. My issue is not really with him, but more that we are in greater need of a guy that can stretch the defense. Instead, we signed a slot guy. Maybe Baldwin was supposed to fill that deep threat role, or maybe we just were filling the holes we could at the time. Maybe a QB that isn’t so inaccurate would be able to do more with the tools we have for him.
I think Baldwin was supposed to be the deep man...or maybe Horne.
Trouble is, Horne played way too much ST’s and never got a look with the first or second-team offense (so we still don’t know)…and Baldwin still needs the hell coached out of him. Some of his alligator hands moments are not excuseable for such a talented player.
Losing Bowe would remove our best “all over” threat…if we, say, signed Brandon Lloyd that gets us an intermediate-to-deep threat with inconsistent hands. Would we have Baldwin working on his sideline grabs and making hands-catches then?
SO many questions at receiver…I hope Coach Anderson (or whoever the next OC brings in) ate their Snickers, because they’ll be at this group for awhile. Breaston’s our best thing going if Bowe is out of the picture.
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills/
One man gathers what another man spills
Good read
I’m still concerned about the WR position, too. I think Brandon Lloyd has some good attributes, but I also think there is a reason why he only stands out for bad teams. He drops key balls, and, in St. Louis this year, he’s had a lot of trouble getting open in double coverage. He doesn’t have the wheels to run off an leave anybody. I still think we need that guy. Baldwin has shown some good things, but there’s a reason they call them rookies. We’ll see where he is two years from now.
I don’t think losing Bowe would be a good thing for us. We’ll spend a few years looking for his replacement, and in KC we know all about looking for good WRs and QBs. It would be nice to finally turn those two positions into pluses, wouldn’t it?
So much wrong in this post, I don't know where to begin.
Me and Matt Cassel just - you up, dog!
by ChiefWarPaint on Jan 2, 2012 12:34 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
A is for Albert and Asamoah ...
… B is for Berry, C is for Charles …
you begin at the beginning, dork! :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
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hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Good Post!
I agree with everything except the fact that he has completely failed on FA. I believe he has not hit on most of them but (at the time) i liked the Brandon Siler signing. we will get to see how he plays next year. Also, I dont think Breaston was a complete miss. What about Orton? I believe Gaither was a great signing but I think he failed in cutting him. and what about McClain?
Dexter McCluster
True.
Complete failure is too harsh. I just don’t think he’s been very good there. McClain and Breaston have been swallowed up in a bad offense. I think they could be good pieces for a better offense, but I don’t think they make the offense better by themselves. Orton is an improvement, though he was technically a waiver pick-up. We’ll see what Siler can do. He gets a mulligan on that one, especially since he signed him again. Gaither probably wasn’t a bad signing unless the coaching staff had a preconceived reason for not wanting him. Why would they cut him so fast?
Gaither being cut was all Bill Muir
His assessment of Gaither was an F even though Gaither seemed to shut down the pass rushers. This is just another reason why Muir should not be an OC or a line coach. He better be off this team by next season
Dexter McCluster
Seems a little dysfunctional to me.
It would seem that the GM and the coaching staff should have had some discussions before signing Gaither, then. I also don’t want one of my coaches cutting a guy that fast from a position of need without talking with me about it first. I can’t imagine that Muir will be retained if a HC is brought from outside. I doubt he survives even if Crennel is promoted.
...and that idea comes from what, one interview Muir gave referencing a lack of explosiveness?
I heard that interview myself, and pretty much decided he was towing a company line.
I highly doubt that Muir, in the course of one season, forgot how to coach. It’s not like he hasn’t whipped up Pro Bowlers with the Eagles, Jets or Bucs in the past or anything.
Should he be coaching in KC next year? I dunno; from a fan’s point of view I have mixed feelings about his performance. It depends on if the new coach wants him around, really.
His coaching history shows he’s not the know-nothing people say he is. My guess is he’ll land a o-line coaching gig somewhere if we let him go.
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills/
One man gathers what another man spills
by go_saleaumua on Jan 2, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
I think it's more a case of being promoted above his skill set.
He’s been a terrific OL coach in his history, but that doesn’t suddenly make him a great OC. This tends to be the issue with many coaches. Gunther Cunningham has been a very good DC throughout his career, but he was a very poor HC. I think Herm Edwards was a very good DB coach, but I think he’s best served as a defensive position coach or coordinator rather than a HC. I feel the same way about Muir. I think he was elevated into the OC gig to fill the hole, but ultimately Haley wanted to be in charge of the offense. Again, Haley is a guy that was probably promoted above his capabilities.
I would like to see a HC brought in with enough self-confidence that he feels comfortable delegating control of the offense and defense to strong coordinators so that he can focus on the game planning and game management. I think Haley was far too insecure to be a good HC in the league.
Oh, Muir was promoted WAY beyond his competencies. I totally agree with you there.
If it didn’t come out that he’s considering retirement, I definitely would say that his ’11 offense IS a firing offense…even if he is a solid-to-good line coach (which I do still believe). I mean, some of the stuff he called was awful.
Haley…ohh Haley. I’m admittedly a Haley guy but it looks terrible when your offense can’t get out of its own way (and you’re an offensive guy)…you have player personnel experience and you and your GM don’t speak…we hired him about two to three years before he was ready to coach, in my mind. He was in over his head by the end of it too.
And Pioli…pretty bad when as a GM, you’re so in love with your own systems and methods of doing things that you miss out on talent. Systems are meant to ensure success, but sometimes even the best system needs to be bypassed every now and again.
If it wasn’t for RAC and this defense, this year would have been an utter failure. Somehow we ended up where I suspected we’d be, a 7-8 win team with upside.
Talk about your plenty, talk about your ills/
One man gathers what another man spills
I'm with you on most of this.
I’m not really a Haley guy. I think his ego stems from paranoia, and it shows in his instability. I think a HC can be emotional, but they have to be stable. Jim Mora is a pretty good example as to why instability leads to so-so results even with good talent.
I would have liked to have seen what Weis and Crennel could have done with a couple of years together here.
Just so everybody understands ....
I’m not looking to run Scott out of town. He’s been leaps and bounds better than what we had under Peterson, who allowed us to become completely irrelevant through mismanagement. I think that this team is mostly a good coaching staff and a QB away from being a consistent playoff contender. I think we have a few more holes than that before we are a SB contender. It looks as though we’re on the path if the GM understands that this team doesn’t dominate yet on any level. If he continues to upgrade the personnel then the Chiefs have a chance to be that in a few years.
well, you asked for it...
First, the Cassel trade. I’m not a big fan of Cassel’s; I think Orton is a better QB, but…when Pioli made the trade, it was necessary. At that time, the QB position on our roster was manned by Huard, Croyle, and Thigpen. Cassel provided stability while the team was being built. Now, it is time to move on. While we are on the topic of QB’s, I’d like to know why Pioli didn’t take the opportunity to sign Leinhart or Carr last July, when both were FA’s, or even one of the lesser QB’s released at the end of camp. Having a vet as back-up to Cassel would’ve prevented Palko from ever throwing a pick in a Chief’s uniform.
I understand your point.
Why did he have to put so much money into him for an unproven guy, though? When you have no clear-cut starter, I would rather see a couple of guys like Cassel brought in at the same time to slug it out in training camp. It sounds like you’re on board with your ending point there.
Typo?
How do you list Bailey as good to great and then say that Houston has a chance to contribute? Houston is already playing great.
Time to face the brutal facts.
You're right.
I didn’t say Houston “has a chance to contribute.” I said that he is in the group that could “become important pieces.” He’s a first year player that came on late. I think he will be a big factor for us, but I don’t consider rookies as great until I see the second year. I’m far from disappointed by any of the guys that I categorized that way. I just want to see their second year.
This offseason will tell the tale.............
Hindsight is 20/20, but we all know 2009 was about playing catch up and picking up the pieces as best they could.
Did Pioli hire the HC he “really” wanted or did he have to settle? My guess now is he settled given how late the hiring actually took place. The GM has to at least collaborate with the HC on what coaches and players to bring in, and so did Pioli perhaps go along with some decisions he might not have otherwise made? As an example do you believe he would have released a player of Brian Waters caliber on his own? Is there any doubt why Charlie Weis stayed just 15 games?
However, Pioli now has the scouting staff he wanted. Presumably he has the support staff he wants. And presumably most of the draft picks are people he can abide. Now with the early exit of the HC, Pioli should not have to “settle” and will get whoever really shares his philosophy, and continue building continuity—which all the great organizations have, and we aspire to, right?
Have we made progress from 2008? I would say yes. Is it pretty clear what the holes in the offense and defense now are? Again, yes. If continuity and character are the goals, isn’t it pretty clear what direction Pioli is likely to go with the HC position? And by extension the other coaching positions as well?
With the coaching hires, the FA pick ups, the draft choices, and the resigning of key players, won’t we be able to tell this coming year if character and continuity, and by extension Pioli’s philosophy, will prevail?
Well questioned.
I think this coming offseason should give us a pretty good read on if Pioli is capable of truly building that continuity without Belichek to preside over him. I think he has made definite progress, but I am very interested in seeing how he handles the HC and QB issue moving forward. If he puts good, stable leadership in place this time around, then I have no complaints with him.
The problem with this post
Is that it assumes a good GM would only pick 100% sure things. This is impossible. You should expect a certain % of picks to be playmakers, and do a good job of locking up emerging/current stars that are on the team.
There is a playmaker in almost, if not all, positions right now. Compare that to when Herm left.
People complain about depth, which would be a valid concern 5 years into the GM position, not in the amount of time it takes to get one playmaker in each position. Now that there is a decent starter in every position, depth should be the next thing.
Now on Pioli’s picks and relationships with Coaches, now that’s a different story. You got to be able to work with the people that you see in the office. I think he needs to work on that.
by MichaelMantastic on Jan 2, 2012 7:28 PM CST reply actions
There seems to be a misunderstanding of what I wrote this for.
I’m not saying that Pioli isn’t a good GM. I’m simply saying that there is room for improvement in certain areas, specifically in the area of FA. I think he has yet to put enough emphasis on the OL, and he seems to be bargain shopping there. I thought the Cassel trade was okay, but the long term deal signing before he’d thrown a pass in a KC uniform was a mistake as it took away the possibility of a competition for the position. I thought guys like Gregg and Chambers were attempts to buy on the cheap rather than bring in value at the positions. Maybe it’s just that he puts a higher emphasis on on-field leadership than I think he should, since he seems to do it at the expense of athletic ability at times.
No GM nails every move, nor do I expect it. I think he has certainly done better than the previous regime. He’s at the point that it is fair to review his work to this point and what could be improved. I think the AFC West now consists of four teams that are all at a crossroads. The decisions in this offseason will dictate which place these teams find themselves in for the next several years. I like our GM better than the others so far. I hope to see it continue, but what he does with the HC and the QB positions are going to be key.
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