Chiefs Vs. Bucs: Where Does Josh Freeman Rank?
by Joel Thorman on Aug 11, 2011 12:18 PM CDT
in 2011 Kansas City Chiefs Preseason Schedule
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PrintThe Tampa Bay Buccaneers have done something the Kansas City Chiefs have basically never done -- drafted a quarterback and groomed him into a starter. The Chiefs have tried but failed to do that consistently with anyone throughout the entire history of their franchise. (Yikes..that's sad.)
Two years ago the Bucs drafted QB Josh Freeman and he's turning into a very good quarterback. He was a little raw coming out of Kansas State, and I think people recognized that, but last year really showed that he's making some nice strides.
His numbers last year are impressive: 61.4% completion, 3,451 yards and just six interceptions. That's Matt Cassel-style right there with the TD:INT ratio.
When I talked with SB Nation's Bucs Nation this week I wanted to know: Is Freeman on his way to becoming an elite quarterback?
Yes, Josh Freeman is on his way to be an elite quarterback. Freeman took some giant steps from his rookie year to his sophomore year. In his rookie year he was inconsistent and turnover prone, while showing a few flashes of greatness. In his sophomore year he turned into a consistent quarterback who managed to minimize turnovers. Moreover, he got better as the year progressed, really finishing the season at a high note.
He and Cassel sound similar and they are, sort of. Cassel has three years starting experience and Freeman has two. Each had a rough first year with their current team but returned the next year to cut down on the mistakes and put points on the board.
Perhaps most impressing has been his work ethic and his leadership. He's just 23 but he's the clear leader on offense and works tremendously hard at his craft. He has the tools and the work ethic to be a franchise quarterback, and showed last season that he could handle the game and produce. I'd very surprised if he isn't talked about as one of the elite quarterbacks within three years.
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25TD vs. 6 INT's and a 95 QB rating
If those were Sanchez’ numbers, all the media would be going nuts.
This kid’s numbers were better than I expected.
Far and away the best QB taken in that draft
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Gotta agree with them
I like watching Freeman and if he can stay healthy and they keep building the team around him, the Bucs are going to be very good for a very long time.
I wish we had drafted him instead of trading for Cassel
Nothing against Cassel but Freeman is special.
Me and Matt Cassel just - you up, dog!
Hindsight is 20/20.
At the time, a lot of people thought Freeman was too raw to even be taken in the first round. But if everyone in the league could somehow go back in time an re-hold the 09 draft, I think he’d very likely be the #1 overall pick.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
I wanted us to draft him or Sanchez
Regrettably I was more in Sanchez’s camp, because I’m a USC fan. But I thought Sanchez would fall to us in the 2nd, he really wasn’t that good in college.
Me and Matt Cassel just - you up, dog!
by ChiefWarPaint on Aug 11, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Freeman
Definitely elite!
I remember pre-draft talks had him moving to tight end or being a slash type player. He stuck to his guns and said he was going to be a QB. More power to him! I hope he does well — love seeing a Grandview HS alum do well. Of course, I was there years before him…
Of course
I only hope that he does well against other teams. When he plays the Chiefs, I hope he spends most of his time on the ground with Tamba & Wally on top of him…
no homo
That's about the same strategy the Steelers use against him.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
Grandview Alum Too
never got to see him play, but knew he was all-state i went there years and years ago also!
No WAY!!!!
Class of ‘80 too I don’t think i should post my full name Jeff B
Awesome!!!
I don’t care — I’ll post my name here. We’re all family…
I’m Bill Welch — I was a nerd in school and somehow, that never really changed.
Freeman is going to be a stud.
And if he improves as much between last season and this season as he did between his first season and last season, he could end up being a top 5 guy this year. Even if he doesn’t, he’ll still make it into that upper echelon within the next few years.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
I was not really high on Freeman come out of
Kansas State and entering the NFL. However, I am very impressed with his progress. He is going to be a great NFL quarterback.
"The Hammer"
I have been impressed with his progress to
His decision-making has improved. I don’t think he is accurate enough to be “great” in the NFL, but I think he will be serviceable.
Matt Cassel is better.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
I don't think you have to be amazingly accurate...
To be great. Namath was great, but nobody would accuse him of being consistently accurate. You don’t have to be super accurate, just make things happen. He makes things happen.
Cassel though, I could totally see him ending up better than Freeman. He’s still young as a starter, and screw the number, when you watch the games you see he has gotten better every year.
Chiefs will...
by Simon from KC on Aug 11, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions
2010 Completion percentages.
Matt Cassel: 58.2%
Josh Freeman: 61.4%
I love Cassel as our starter and am one of his biggest supporters, but if the Buccaneers offered us Freeman for Cassel straight-up, I wouldn’t even have to think before taking them up on it.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
Look at the numbers
Cassel played in only 15 games last year, remember the appendectomy? He completed 262 passes in those games for an average per game of 17.46. Freeman played in all 16 games and completed 292 passes for an average of 18.18 per game. You want to trade Cassel away for Freeman based on less than one completion per game? Cassel also had two more TD passes in those 15 games that Freeman had in his 16. ON top of that, had Cassel played that final game, his avg yds per game in passing indicate that his total would have 3324 yds for the season. Freeman had 3451 yds for the season. Per game average is 221.6 for Cassel and 215.7 for Freeman. Cassel would have thrown for MORE yards had he not missed a game.
Your desire to trade Cassel for Freeman based on their completion percentages is a ridiculous claim. For a little more, Cassel made his stats on a team with the number one rushing game in the league last year. Freeman’s Bucs? They finished with over 600 fewer yards rushing. Freeman HAD to throw the ball more and he was unable to eclipse what Cassel did had he played one more game? Think about it.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Your opinion is bigger, but mine is more agile.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
I won't trade for Freeman based on numbers, but I would not hesitate based on potential and ability.
Cassel is an above average leader and above average heart, trouble is he has below average talent. He has some limitations that I believe will keep him form ever becoming a top 5 QB. Freeman may never develop into a better player than Cassel (probably similar now), but the chance exists he might.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
And the Chance exits that Cassel can win a Super Bowl in the offense
that Pioli and Haley have designed for him. That is the goal, not having a top 5 QB simply for the sake of having a top 5 QB.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Of course I wouldn't trade Cassel based solely on another quarterback's better completion percentage numbers.
But with everything else factored in, I would make that trade in a heartbeat. Like I said, Freeman is younger, faster, has a stronger arm, and at worst he’s no less accurate than Cassel. Freeman also seems to have the much sought after “clutch” gene, which is a pretty nebulous quality that gets a little blown out of purportion, but the fact remains that he’s kept a cool head and brought his A game when he needs to in the 4th quarter. Cassel’s got fantastic intangibles, but it doesn’t seem like Freeman is lacking in that area either. Like I said, I am a huge supporter of Cassel, and I’m not denying that Freeman is still developing. But Freeman is younger and has a higher ceiling.
If, in some crazy hypothetical scenario, the Bucs’ front office goes insane and offers up that trade, you’d have to take it.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
by MtHammer on Aug 11, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Because of 3.2 percent?
That would’ve been 14 more completions over the course of the season for Cassel.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
One completion per game can make a potentially huge impact.
But my real point is that Nick Britt says that he’d prefer Cassel because Freeman isn’t accurate enough, but Cassel posted a lower completion percentage than Freeman. That isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement of Cassel as a more accurate quarterback than Freeman.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
Uncertainty factor.
You could easily attribute one completion per game to receiver drops. More, actually. So that stat shouldn’t be a basis for choosing one or the other because there’s not enough separation.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
Hes not accurate enough
Then you go on to say Cassel is better, who is far less accurate.
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Aug 11, 2011 12:58 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Hilarious. If someone wants to argue that Cassel is a better QB they can go ahead, but you might want to avoid using accuracy and arm strength out of the equation.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
Cassel is more accurate than Freeman..you are wrong
And Cassel is a much better leader and has a much higher football IQ.
Completion percentage is not a measure of accuracy.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
How so?
How would you gauge your accuracy? Cassel threw mostly short-intermediate passes and he was sub-60%. Just wondering how you quantify that Cassel is more accurate.
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Aug 11, 2011 1:27 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Every QB throws mostly short-intermediate passes
Freeman does as well and his decision-making has been historically bad. It has gotten better, which has lowered his INTs. I think last season was a little bit of a fluke, I just don’t see him sustaining that level of play. If you look at his collective body of work, it just isn’t there.
Another thing is winning. Freeman hasn’t been that successful at any level and that tells me something.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
Hasn't been successful at any level? He won 9 games in his second year as a pro.
I’d say thats pretty successful.
You can't live that American dream on foot, bro. Aint nobody riding horses no more.
Cassel has horrible accuracy.
Might be his biggest flaw.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
He made that list..
The top 100 players, voted by the players, on NFL Network. Cassel didn’t, Eli didn’t. I can’t remember exactly but I think he was one of the top ten quarterbacks on the list.
Chiefs will...
The fact that Eli Manning didn't make the list
but won a Super Bowl should discredit the list enough for you not to sight that as any kind of proof. I’ll take a winner over stats any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Just wanting to clarify.
Sounds like you don’t think anyone without a ring should be in the top 100 players.
No
I was just pointing out that any list is based on some set of factors that may or may not be relevant to a particular discussion. Eli Manning is a SB winner who didn’t make the list. I would much prefer that SB win than to say our QB made the list.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
right now
He will need improvement to be Elite. Eli Manning was suppose to be better then he is, and better then his brother, but My money would be on Peyton everytime.
by Bigcherokeechief on Aug 11, 2011 12:45 PM CDT reply actions
i love freeman
Sad to see him leave k state early but I believe he has way more potential then cassel. I like cassel alot if down to it id take freeman. I hope he does great in the future and becomes an elite quarterback. Nice to see a k state guy do well in the pros.
by KCman66 on Aug 11, 2011 12:54 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
I miss him too
As a KU fan.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
I have to admit, as a KU fan, that based on his play at KSU I didn't think he'd do very well in the NFL.
But the dude has really come into his own. And I agree with KCman66 that it’s always nice to see local guys do well.
"[Jamaal Charles] probably fights crime in his spare time while inhaling carbon emissions, exhaling oxygen, and crapping oil. That’s how awesome he is. Not just good for the Chiefs, but America."
- MNchiefsfan
Of course
He wasn’t that great in HS though.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
i love freeman
Sad to see him leave k state early but I believe he has way more potential then cassel. I like cassel alot if down to it id take freeman. I hope he does great in the future and becomes an elite quarterback. Nice to see a k state guy do well in the pros.
by KCman66 on Aug 11, 2011 12:54 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Freeman is Kansas City, Missouri Kid Also
He went to Grandview High School
If you compare
Cassel and Freemans stats against common opponents last year, you will see they were pretty much the same
QBR
His total quarterback rating was a lot higher than Matt Cassel’s.
Yep
Meaning throwing for 400 yards in garbage time against a shitty defense down by 35 doesn’t make you good.
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Aug 11, 2011 1:05 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
so you pick one game.....ok...no one is claiming hes amazing. but some of cassel's games last year were pretty darn good...so do welook at one game andmake a judgement?
Ill look at the full body of work, not just some garbage time game that seems to irk people in regards to cassel stats
Team Pioli/Haley. Decade of the Chiefs.
Team Colquitt
He did have some great games
I was in Seattle game, arguably his best game as a chief, you would have thought I was his #1 fan if you saw me that day. My argument was that QBR devalues garbage time stats against lessor ranked defenses.
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Aug 11, 2011 1:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
To be a great QB in this league you need to be able to throw the ball when it is predicable.
Cassel had the best situation any QB could have for success (especially one with that has trouble making progressions). A dominant running game that forces defenses into very predicable defenses, and one on one match ups a high percentage of the time.
Cassel surprised me last year, and played better than I expected, but I still have some concerns about his ability to lead an offense that is either behind in a football game, or that fails to run the ball.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
Sorry Craig
Cassel has thrown for over 400 yards three times in his career. The fact that so few have ever done that DOES mean that he is a good QB. I solved that riddle a long time ago. You ask below why Cassel apologists resort to extremes? It’s comments like this one that cause it.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Over the course of a 16-game season
The highs and lows average out. But I guess pick and choose your single-game stats all your want to try to fit your opinion.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
No, you are right about that.
Throwing for 400 yards three times in your career—now that’s a different matter. That DOES make you good. I already solved that riddle for you Craig.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
lot of hype around freeman when his year was very cassel like in stats
that said he has a heck of an arm
Team Pioli/Haley. Decade of the Chiefs.
Team Colquitt
Incredible
If Matt Cassel ran a 99 yard QB sneak for a TD on the first play of the drive, some schmuck would blame him for us starting on the 1yd line.
no, it would be that he never should be running
and charles should have carried it. he would have scored faster
Team Pioli/Haley. Decade of the Chiefs.
Team Colquitt
No they wouldnt
Why do Cassel apologists have to resort to such ridiculous extremes to try to make their point?
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Aug 11, 2011 1:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Because Cassel Haters resort
to those extremes all the time.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Answer this
What would Matt Cassel have to do for you to like him? Apparently leading an obviously insufficient offense to the playoffs with a great TD:INT ratio isn’t enough, so what is it?
by NotAGoodName on Aug 11, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I do like him
I just think he’s a middle of the pack QB who greatly benefited from a great rushing attack and a soft schedule. I don’t see anything wrong with my take, yet I’m often called a hater. Oh well.
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Aug 11, 2011 1:21 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Bullshit
You hate his guts. Nothing he does is good enough.
Tampa Bay didn’t have a hard schedule either, but somehow that’s irrelevant because any QB that isn’t Matt Cassel is surely better. If we lose the Superbowl it’s Matt Cassel’s fault because he’s not an elite QB. If we win the Superbowl, it’s in spite of Matt Cassel because he’s not an elite QB.
by NotAGoodName on Aug 11, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Craig is sticking to his guns
He wanted us to go with Brodie Croyle as the starter heading into last season and can’t admit defeat.
Just eat the damn crow. We have a Pro Bowl quarterback who is a great leader on and off the field. Kansas City should be proud.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
Ive never said that
Neither of you guys know me, so don’t tell me how I feel. The search button is available, go ahead, show me where I say I hate him or think Brodie is better.
I’m done with this. We’ll see this year, but I have my doubts. I hope I’m wrong.
"He that hath a beard is more than a youth, and he that hath no beard is less than a man" - Bill Shakespeare
by craig in calgary on Aug 11, 2011 1:34 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I am with you.
I never said Cassel was terrible. I think he is average (which is better than a lot of teams), butI worry because of the support of the run game last year we may have seen his ceiling.
The question on this thread was if Freeman is better. Right now, maybe not, but anyone should be able to see he has a higher ceiling than Cassel.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
this year will be the proof
the chiefs have a nightmare schedule and if cassel performs at the level he did this last year he’ll legitimize his “market value” and his antagonists will have to “eat crow” we all will see what the real truth is
I love this mindset...
if you don’t think KCQB#7 is the solution then you must want Brodie. Where’s the Strawman dude?
You can't live that American dream on foot, bro. Aint nobody riding horses no more.
Freeman had about the same kind of opponents
Didn’t he?
by KCinIL on Aug 11, 2011 1:35 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I don't dislike Cassell
but he’s getting paid a salary not worthy of his talent…..i feel the chiefs could have spent the $$ better to compete for playoff wins it seems cassell didn’t make or break us last year but $15 million distributed wisely throughout the roster could have been a big difference so i don’t point the finger at Matt but management
This has been discussed ad nauseum
Cassel was paid a lot of upfront money and his contract is market value.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
Has Freeman won any playoff games?
by KCinIL on Aug 11, 2011 1:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
And what happened when Cassel was out?
We got fuckin rocked. He means alot more to the team then you chose to believe
by KCinIL on Aug 11, 2011 1:42 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
JC led this offense to the playoffs
You can't live that American dream on foot, bro. Aint nobody riding horses no more.
Along w cassel
Can’t say he wasn’t a huge part of that he put up most of our points
by KCinIL on Aug 11, 2011 1:52 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You are just bitter because you were Cassel's strongest opponent coming into last season
You were flat wrong and are still pretty bitter about it.
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
Chiefs vs Bucs wont finish the game
Good chance of Severe Weather capable of producing damaging winds and isolated tornadoes throughout the evening,
2010 Kansas City Chiefs:11-5
by Weatherman Kumke on Aug 11, 2011 1:36 PM CDT reply actions
Could be a blessing in disguise.
No way are these players ready to play in game — even a preseason one.
Well that makes my decision easy
was already considering not making the 3 hour drive down for the game even though I can’t unload my tickets.
There are few QB's that I'd take ahead of Freeman
Dude’s a few years away from being league MVP
You can't live that American dream on foot, bro. Aint nobody riding horses no more.
First Blount, now this.
TB is going to get HIV from us.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
They have the two of three (love me some MeSean) tightest players in the league
I’ll be pulling for them in the NFC South
You can't live that American dream on foot, bro. Aint nobody riding horses no more.
He couldn't be in a worse situation
Got Atlanta pushing for big runs saints will always be there as long as payton n brees are there. Rivera won’t make miracles but they won’t be push overs either once he gets that team goin. Tough seein them in the playoffs
by KCinIL on Aug 11, 2011 2:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
That's a fun division to watch, though.
The Chiefs and I have mutually agreed on this decision and although I look forward to continuing my career, I’ll always have a special place in my heart for Kansas City.
I finally, truly became a Berry fan when he knocked out Jackson in that preseason game.
I figured he’s gotta be a pretty good rookie to do something like that to a player as skilled as Jackson.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
The Chiefs have never drafted & developed a QB
But that’s not surprising when for 20 years we had a GM who didn’t believe in doing that. That’s one of my biggest knocks on Peterson and one of the things I love about Pioli. I fully expect Cassel’s successor to be “homegrown”.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made. ~ Groucho Marx
by Big Chief on Aug 11, 2011 2:39 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
The real question is
in a $200 auction league, how much will he go for. Was really hoping to get this guy low as a lot of the people in my work league are idiots who don’t really follow football.
Freeman is good, but let's not crown the guy elite just yet
Who’s to say he hasn’t hit his ceiling yet. I like the progress he’s made so far though. He’s miles better than Sanchez that’s for sure.
At this point in their careers
I would say Freeman and Cassel have an equal chance to be elite. They both played well against less than stellar competition through last season. Freeman has the youth and higher ceiling, but I think Cassel has the better team around him, which goes a long way in development. We shall see
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Aug 11, 2011 5:13 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
no one has mentioned
Freeman alos had the second most ruching yards of any NFL QB behind mike Vick.. and ill gaurantee that FREE avoided and broke at least 2x as many sacks or tackles then Cassel.. the only QBS in the NFL i would consider trading FREEMAN for would be Big Ben or Phillips Rivers..
1998 Preseason game At Norman
Anyone else go to this game? It was a great game till that 4th and 10 and Eric Vances bonehead play…
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