The 'Tweener Anomaly
The landscape of the NFL has changed quite dramatically over the course of the last 5 years, and us diehard fans have seen it in full force, as the age of the high flying, pass heavy offense has spawned some of the best QB driven teams in recent memory. Some might credit this change to the college football installation of the spread offense, as NFL teams are having to accept that some of the top offensive prospects come from these spread teams, and it makes more sense collectively to bring them into something familiar, instead of trying to change them from what they were successful at. Also, credit can be given to the demand for exciting football and the many rule changes that benefit the offense and scoring TDs.
This too has affected the defensive side of the ball in the NFL, as more teams have changed to the 3-4 defense to try to counter the pass happy offenses. This has put a high value mark on positions like pure nose tackle, and a big emphasis on linebackers, specifically smaller, athletic linebackers who can run with pass catchers. Unfortunately for the NFL, the college ranks have yet to start adopting this change on the defensive side of the ball, as very few college teams run a 3-4, despite facing these spread offenses regularly. This puts many teams in positions of having to find defensive players to mold and change into what you want them to be for your defense, which has ultimately led to the 'Tweener Anomaly of 2011.
Let me first quickly explain what a 'tweener is for those who may not know. A 'tweener is simply a player that has played one position in college and is likely better suited for another position in the NFL, or they are in-between ('tweener) being ideal for one position or the other. Most of the time, when calling a player a 'tweener, it is usually referring to a defensive end that is undersized for NFL standards and will likely be drafted to play an OLB, usually in the 3-4 defense. This is the prototypical 'tweener, and this is the anomaly for 2011.
Looking back at the last 6 drafts, from 2005-2010, there were minimal 'tweeners in the first couple of rounds of each respective draft, likely early on being because of the few NFL teams that played a 3-4 defense. As the shift to the 3-4 began, we started to see the increase in top 50-100 'tweener prospects. I'll do a quick recap of these 1st and 2nd round 'tweeners from 2005-2010.
2005:
1st round:
DeMarcus Ware - Dallas
Shawne Merriman - San Diego
David Pollack - Cincinnati (not a 3-4 team, but did play DE in college)
2nd round:
Kevin Burnett - Dallas
Dan Cody - Baltimore
2006:
1st round:
Manny Lawson - San Francisco
Kamerion Wimbley - Cleveland
Tamba Hali - Kansas City (drafted as a 4-3 DE, but team now a 3-4 team)
2007:
1st round:
Anthony Spencer - Dallas
2nd round:
LaMarr Woodley - Pittsburgh
2008:
1st round:
2009:
1st round:
Aaron Maybin - Buffalo (drafted as 4-3 DE, but team now a 3-4 team)
Brian Orakpo - Washington (drafted as a 4-3 DE, but team now a 3-4 team)
Larry English - San Diego
Robert Ayers - Denver
2nd round:
Paul Kruger - Baltimore (think he plays mostly DE, but size suggests 'tweener)
2010:
2nd round:
Connor Barwin - Houston (drafted as a 4-3 DE, but team is now a 3-4 team)
Koa Misi - Miami
Sergio Kindle - Baltimore
Jermaine Cunningham - New England
As you can see, from 2005-2008, the 1st/2nd round 'tweeners were minimal, and we see that number increase in 2009 and 2010 of them, as more teams start making the 3-4 transition. Here we are in 2011, and take a look at the number of potential 1st and 2nd round 'tweeners in this draft.
2011:
Von Miller
Robert Quinn
Ryan Kerrigan
Aldon Smith
Brooks Reed
Justin Houston
Sam Acho
Jabaal Sheard
That's 8 potential 'tweeners mostly mocked to go in the 1st two rounds, which would be a high mark for the last 6 years. So, I am starting to wonder what this means. Is this just a weak draft class in terms of pure LBs? Is this a weak class for everyone? Do these players really deserve to be in the top 50-100? Are there really that many more 3-4 teams hungry for OLBs?
In looking at this short history of 'tweeners, one thing I've started to believe is that many teams don't like to take the chance on 'tweeners in the 1st round. Look at just last year, all the 'tweeners to 3-4 teams went in the 2nd round, despite some being in the top 32 players. Many draft analysts have a good number of these 'tweeners going to 4-3 teams in the 1st round to continue to play DE, especially once you get past the top 2-3 of them. These 'tweeners have more responsibilities than just rushing the passer and occasionally playing the run as a 3-4 OLB than they did as a 4-3 DE; perhaps teams recognize this more than we fans realize and don't risk a 1st round pick on hopes that a player can transition well to a different position. It has had it's successes, seen from DeMarcus Ware, LaMarr Woodley, Brian Orakpo, and for a period of time, Shawne Merriman (though the steroids may have more to do with his success than anything); but it's also had it's failures, seen from David Pollack, Manny Lawson, Robert Ayers, Larry English, Aaron Maybin, and maybe none more so than Vernon Gholston. Kamerion Wimbley finally found some success last season in Oakland, and maybe the same will be said for some of these other youngsters, but time will tell.
So of course I'm going to correlate this with the Chiefs, and it is my belief that we won't be one of those teams that is going to take a 1st round chance on one of these 'tweeners this year, especially considering we already have our very own 'tweener in Tamba Hali, and he flashes those red flags against most 'tweeners too: bad in pass coverage, mediocre against the run. As our LB needs seem most pressing at SOLB and maybe SILB, most of these 'tweeners don't have much history of doing what we will need our SOLB to do. It shouldn't come as a surprise we have met with Justin Houston and Aldon Smith, as Houston is really the only 'tweener that has had collegiate experience at OLB, and Smith may be one of the top prospects expected to transition well. Obviously, who the Chiefs do and don't meet with really has no bearing on who they will draft, evident from last year, but I think the draft history and track record of 'tweeners the last 6 years speaks volumes about which direction the Chiefs will go in the 1st round this year.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Nice read
Thanks and rec’d…
"When I was just a baby, my momma told me "Son... always be a good boy. Don't ever play with guns." But I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die..."
2nd
rec
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions
double ditto
that’s seven :-)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Thanks guys
Much appreciated
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 8:33 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey! I rec'd it too.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
Im in!!! I'm in
REC’d
There's no dollar sign on a peace of mind, this I've come to know. So if you agree, have a drink with me, and raise your glasses for a toast.
- Zac Brown
Thanks again everybody
I actually wrote something good enough to get the elusive KaloPhoenix to make an appearance. Or someone asked about him in a comment, and he provided insight, but I’d like to think I had something to do with it :-)
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 6:21 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Where's Akeem Ayers in this discussion?
So you say that Justin Houston is a tweener at 6’3" 258lbs and Akeem Ayers is traditional linebacker at 6’2" 255lbs.
They’re the same size.
on the same subject,
Von Miller is not a tweener. He’s a straight up rush linebacker. At 237lbs no 4-3 team is even going to consider playing him at defensive end.
He runs a 4.4 and sucks against the run, the team that drafts him is going to try to hang some extra muscle on him, but he’s strictly a speed guy. Look at who’s taking him in the mocks, Buffalo’s going back to the 3-4 after abandoning it mid-season, Arizona and the 49ers are all drooling over him.
Again, you're misunderstanding his definition
a defensive end that is undersized for NFL standards and will likely be drafted to play an OLB, usually in the 3-4 defense.
That would describe Miller very well, no?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Mock would fit that definition
tiny 4-3 DE
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions
How fast is Mock?
And I wonder what round he will go..
I want a SOLB @ 21.. our NT @ 55;
Best remaining WR in the third round.
Then an OC, QB, OT, S, and RB for depth.
by chiefsfan62 on Apr 12, 2011 6:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
well the raiders don't pick till # 48
So probably #48 2nd round:)
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't mind him if the team was better filled on starters
Could you imagine the Hali/Moch combination on obvious passing downs.
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions
If you'll re-read the post
A ‘tweener is simply a player that has played one position in college and is likely better suited for another position in the NFL, or they are in-between (’tweener) being ideal for one position or the other. Most of the time, when calling a player a ’tweener, it is usually referring to a defensive end that is undersized for NFL standards and will likely be drafted to play an OLB, usually in the 3-4 defense.
It’s about switching from DE to OLB, not specific to size necessarily. Ayers is a LB already, which takes away much of the “tweener” label with him.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Thanks, MN
Pretty much exactly what my response would have been.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
So..
Would Ayers be more ‘NFL ready’ at the SOLB position since he played LB in college?
I would think, yes.
I want a SOLB @ 21.. our NT @ 55;
Best remaining WR in the third round.
Then an OC, QB, OT, S, and RB for depth.
by chiefsfan62 on Apr 12, 2011 5:58 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I would say that ayers is definitely the most NFL ready SOLB
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 6:37 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed!
I like your new ‘handle’ by the way;
Joe was the best..
I want a SOLB @ 21.. our NT @ 55;
Best remaining WR in the third round.
Then an OC, QB, OT, S, and RB for depth.
by chiefsfan62 on Apr 12, 2011 7:37 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks, chiefsfan
He was a true hero. Hope I can be half the man he was, as most people should
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 8:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'll thank you to keep your Tweener away from my Anomaly.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
by BigRedChief on Apr 12, 2011 6:31 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
The streams shall not cross
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm so confused...
One of the founding members of The Super Duper Matt Cassel Fanclub.
We all have the right to our own opinions, its just that mine are right.
Sober since January something, I need to find my calendar for the exact date.
by nateforchiefs on Apr 12, 2011 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Ewwww, gwoss
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 7:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
damn, BRV ... that there's a GREEN anomaly ...
you sick sumbeech!
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
BRV? I'm not even going to begin to think what the V would stand for....
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
Big Red Victory
Whoops, just threw up in my mouth a bit
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 9:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
That sounds about right.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
The Victory part not the throw up part.
Lol.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
damn, one tiny little typo and y'all twist it around ... no wonder there's no labor agreement ;-)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Is it possible to call NT's tweeners in a different way?
Too Small to be just DT’s and not large enough to require License plates on their Ass
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
dammit
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
We'll call them "Twuckers" :-P
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 6:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Hey Delaney, you forgot our very own Tamba Hali on the list of Tweeners.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
I did forget him!
What year did we draft him?
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 6:39 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
2006
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
Durnit!
How did I forget him? I mentioned him in the last paragraph, but how I missed him in the list, I haven’t the slightest. Nice catch, BRC.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 6:50 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
does this mean you're changing you nick again?
to … RememberHali91
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
HA
Changing it to “forgettingmyownteam00”
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 8:58 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Fixed
Thanks for catching that, BRC.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 6:41 AM CDT up reply actions
random
you said buffalo went from 43 defense to 34 defense didn’t they go back to a 34 defense?
Winner of the 2010 Arrowhead Pride, "Beat The Insiders"
Very nice article.
I would add that another reason not to pull the trigger early for your SOLB conversion project, other than he’s a project, is you see very good value from these sorts of players, whom 4-3 teams are looking right past, and many 3-4 teams are looking for guys who cover like a traditional 4-3 LB. It’s not so much that they might not be WORTH more to your team, but that they can be had with a later draft pick.
When you’re running a 4-3, you’re pretty much obliged to look for DEs in the 1st. And in at least one model of team build (my own shabby perspective, i.e.), after you’re off the ground (and the Chiefs are about cleared for runway #1), you can find value at those front 5 spots without spending 1st-rounders. DE/DT ’tweeners that everybody looks past and DE/LB ’tweeners that everybody looks past.
would of ≠ would've
Still a strong admixture of high draft picks, but a better chance of developing dark horses, because of the roles you expect of them.
would of ≠ would've
Interesting
Let’s look at our defense
2 solid young experienced Corners with a decent nickel
2 talented and young Safeties
A pair of bookend DE’s again young and hopefully progressing as they should
A fantastic Rush Linebacker in his prime
A very good cover Weak Inside Linebacker that just recently found his game
Ideally that jack of all trades Strong Outside Linebacker would be the next most serious need. IMO that guy is not a tweener. He is probably just a little bigger WILB.
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Me thinks NT is the most serious need... solid play from that position would allow all of the above players mentioned to flourish. IMO.
As well as cover up some of the glaring problems at other positions… (I’m looking at you Belcher)
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
Pioli
chose Vrabel to fill the SOLB and let Edwards handle the nose for two seasons.
Which position seems to be important to Pioli?
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe he's just wasn't impressed with any of his options untill now... he appears to be at least interested in Taylor.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
I hope they don't break off the engagement party :)
3 solid picks on either side of the ball would be awesome.
Pioli would seem to be the D Guy :)
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
1. Phil Taylor NT
2, Quan Sturdivant ILB
3. Quinton Carter nickel FS/SS
Vrabel resigns and backs up Andy Studebaker while Sheffield comes up to speed
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I might agree with you
A penetrating pocket pushing NT (I’m looking at you, Phil Taylor :-) would help the pass rush as much as a SOLB. Too many times an opposing QB stepped up in the pocket to avoid our tweener.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 8:28 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I just think a true NT would free Dorsey and TJax up enough that offensive lines would be crapping themselves trying to figure out who to block...
I’m of the opinion that Dorsey is going to be VERY good very soon and TJax hopefully isn’t too far behind.. adding a block eating big man in the middle would free those guys up thus fully unleashing Tamba “The Predator” Hali.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
damn slacker Kalo
what kind of contributor AP writer leaves us figuring this out ourselves?
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah WTF? I'm so confused right now...
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
A true NT allows Dorsey to get after the QB easier.
Which, in turn, allows Tamba to get after the QB easier. Makes life hell on the left side of an offensive line.
Now, a strong SOLB will pinch the pocket and make sure a mobile QB will stay in the pocket. They may step up, but if Dorsey/Jackson/Gilberry/NT can play off of this well, they can anchor and form a wall to make sure the QB doesn’t escape.
Now, on top of all of this, an ILB that can cover a little more solidly and a SOLB that can run with the RB in the flat allows this team to run with a more standard 3-4 front rather than having to switch back and forth between that in the nickel. Right now, the 3-4 is weak against short slants, TE’s and RB’s in the flat, and the nickel can get run all over and allows the QB to have more room in the pocket.
"Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you." -- Malcolm Reynolds
by KaloPhoenix on Apr 12, 2011 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions
So your SOLB needs to be strong enough to anchor the run nad hold the edge
but athletic enough to drop back and take away a slant, and/or cover the flat on pass plays?
Seems like recognition would be the most important aspect of playing that position. Could make up for less athleticism.
Seems like play-action would test the re-direct of a player that stays in to hold the edge, but then get out to the flat or drop back to take away the slant in time.
There's no dollar sign on a peace of mind, this I've come to know. So if you agree, have a drink with me, and raise your glasses for a toast.
- Zac Brown
Correct and correct.
And the occasional pass rush would help tremendously. I’m not opposed to taking a bigger 4-3 SLB and bumping him up, or a projected 3-4 ILB that has a good head and stacks blocks well that may be able to make a switch.
I’m really not a draft guy, I know very little when it comes down to it, but there are several guys I’ve seen that could fill the role. A guy like Mario Harvey bulked up, kept his speed, and has a knack for getting to the QB. Plus, he’s a pretty sure tackler and has coverage skills. Ross Hohman didn’t have a great year last year, but he’s a jack-of-all-trades LB that would have to put on some weight. Then there’s the little Matthews who can definitely ball, but is likely too small to slot forward, but if there’s anyone who can do it, it’s someone in that bloodline.
The best part is, all of these guys are mid to late round picks that could slot in at the SILB position as well, should the transition forward not be a good one. Kind of a win-win scenario.
"Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you." -- Malcolm Reynolds
by KaloPhoenix on Apr 12, 2011 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good stuff....thanks Kalo
I had figured pass rush was just a bonus considering we already have a LB that rushes the passer nearly every play anyways.
There's no dollar sign on a peace of mind, this I've come to know. So if you agree, have a drink with me, and raise your glasses for a toast.
- Zac Brown
Martez Wilson seems like a tweener from SILB to SOLB
He’s got the size at 6’4 250 lbs and runs a 4.6. A higher pick would be needed to take him but one of the few guys I’ve read about that could play insider or outside in different schemes.
There's no dollar sign on a peace of mind, this I've come to know. So if you agree, have a drink with me, and raise your glasses for a toast.
- Zac Brown
awesome Kalo
rec
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 13, 2011 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions
It's Kalo!
So I’m wondering if Ayers’ experience at ILB might lend to him being our SOLB and being moved to ILB with DJ in nickel/obvious passing downs and continue bringing in Studey at OLB. Kalo, can you give some insight on Studey and specifically his pass coverage this last year?
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 6:29 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe. I'm one of the few that like Ayers.
Studie’s pass coverage is mediocre. He and Vrabel were about equals there, which isn’t really good. My problem with him is his ability to stay strong at the point of attack against the run.
"Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you." -- Malcolm Reynolds
I like Ayers as well
He is going to be a solid starter for whatever team takes him.
So you believe Studey isn’t really the answer at SOLB?
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 8:07 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I believe he is solid depth that needs to improve in a lot of key areas to be a legit starter.
"Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you." -- Malcolm Reynolds
by KaloPhoenix on Apr 13, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Especially if they have to double all three of them.
Dorsey might demand a double team, TJax….hard to say.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 9:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
My take from game film is Dorsey's the one who's getting single-blocked a lot.
He keeps his feet well, and can play off the block if somebody tries to sneak past him, but comes to a dead stop head-up against LOT. Not much push.
would of ≠ would've
Agree with what you see, but maybe the staff is giving him
containment duty since that isn’t part of Hali’s game.
I've said/seen much the same, and cut both Dorsey and Vrabel some slack, because of that.
But re-watching Dorsey being a non-factor against Flacco in the passing game the other day, combined with ?Bigbe?‘s more scholarly critique, the other other day, I’m definitely open to adding quality DE to the mix. Even if I’m off the mark, letting Shaun Smith play the nose more frequently with a solid contribution from a new guy would help the Chiefs a lot. I’d rather make the LBs we have (plus some later-round picks) better, with dominating line play, which we’re still not seeing. They’ll get SOME of that back if Jackson steps up, but he never won back his starting job from Shaun Smith after the knee, so who knows where KC really stands THERE?
It’s fairly clear where the tiers are in the NFL, and with wins over St. Louis and Seattle, KC established themselves as top half of the league in the trenches (both sides), but not yet ready to play with the big kids in the playoffs.
would of ≠ would've
High level play from the D-line can make up for alot
Think back to the Patriots d-line with Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork; they made mid-level talents like Bruschi and Vrabel look much better them they really were. They had 1st round talent at rush WOLB in Willie McGinest, but the rest if the LB crew were minimal. Do you need high level LBs or high level D-line?
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 10:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I'd love to trade up for Cam Jordan and realize a trade for
Dorsey with N.O. who has both the need and want for a home state hero. Maybe a M.Colston and a pick next year?
No trades for players or future picks until after CBA is negotiated
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 14, 2011 2:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Future picks CAN be traded
Players(until new CBA) CANNOT
Cassel out, Andrew Luck in!
by BAMFSpecialOps on Apr 15, 2011 6:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Are you sure???
I’ve heard different. Can you supply any articles? (Not doubting you, obviously, just definitely would like to see details on exactly what can and can’t be done in terms of trades)
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 15, 2011 7:07 AM CDT up reply actions
It's been stated many times, google it
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2011/2/1/1968761/odd-bedfellowes
http://twitter.com/mortreport/status/49615287447859201
Cassel out, Andrew Luck in!
by BAMFSpecialOps on Apr 15, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
That was a good read BAMF :)
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 15, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Eh
It was ok, lacked polished.. but what else would you expect from THAT guy?
Cassel out, Andrew Luck in!
by BAMFSpecialOps on Apr 15, 2011 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Clearly it hadn't been stated enough for me to see it
But thanks for the effort
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 15, 2011 1:42 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It's been said in almost every thread
Cassel out, Andrew Luck in!
by BAMFSpecialOps on Apr 15, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Great points
If these tweeners are strictly 3-4 targets, many can and will fall to the wayside of many teams. Just like someone said above, a great prospect like Miller won’t even be considered by 4-3 teams.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 7:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
How bout a servicable 3-4 ILB that could play snaps as the SOLB in nickel?
I'm intrigued by Quan at SILB
I don’t like Wilson outside of WILB, although he might be interesting at SOLB, if he fell to our 2nd round pick.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 12, 2011 7:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Maybe Pioli goes all in on the Defense this year
I wish he would fix one side or the other in this draft.
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I think if the offense could control the clock better,
the defense could hold up their end. Think about that Baltimore game, where the offense had about one really good play (TD run by Charles), while the D held Baltimore to only 3 points for quite a long time.
I don’t think it’s to the D’s advantage to give up the short stuff, but catastrophic breakdowns were game-killers for the Chiefs, with zero come-from-behind ability on offense. Better teams can play the more aggressive D, if they know the offense has their back. I don’t think the KC D ever played with that kind of confidence.
That said, the most glaring thing about the defense was lack of pressure from the front 3 and lack of redirect from EVERYBODY, except Carr and Flowers, or, when his number came up, Vrabel. I don’t think I saw another player on the KC D really chucking anybody at the line or body up. It was all lay back and hope you have Superman speed to close, when the worst happens after you did nothing to prevent it ahead of time.
would of ≠ would've
I'll throw a couple of non-traditional tweener names out there... Eric Hagg and Dejon Gomes.
Boom!
Homerism you say? Maybe… prolly…. but hear me out…
Too small but both are pretty solid tacklers and they seem to have a sense of where the ball is at most times.
I’d like to see Romeo mix it up with some of those formations with an extra bigger DB playing closer to the line.
Sending blitzs from all areas any given play. It’s exciting and it’s been very effective.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
Romeo Blitzes?
"We feel very strongly that our best policy is to draft the best player. This isn't fantasy football." - Ted Thompson
by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 12, 2011 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Strange concept I know.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
and BRC knows strange!
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Just like Ups knows creepy!
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
Great stuff here....thanks for bringing some new reading material
The closer we get to the draft the more excited I’ll get about Kerrigan. There are some other good players up there that I would be happy with at SOLB but Kerrigan would be a “core” guy in my opinion and I wouldnt be against trading up to #17 to grab him so he couldnt end up in San Diego. If it takes a 4th, DO IT! I can see him holding the edge and playing the run better than any other SOLB in this draft.
I think we’d see more experience from guys playing 3/4’s in college if it wasn’t so damn hard to find good NT’s at that position. Especially in a pass-happy college game it would bring a different look that most teams don’t see each week. Finding 330 lbs monsters in the middle isn’t easy for college recruiters and its not easy for NFL teams.
There's no dollar sign on a peace of mind, this I've come to know. So if you agree, have a drink with me, and raise your glasses for a toast.
- Zac Brown
So then, Mr. Big Shot Bajah, you are disagreeing with my entire post???
:-)
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 6:49 AM CDT up reply actions
ha. first time i've been called that
At this point there isn’t much I don’t agree with. We have less needs and more options. I really like kerrigan but it doesn’t mean I think we will get him. Its most likely a front 7 defender or OL.
The solb position seems to need such a particular skill set that I think it would be hard to hide those guys so much that they fall into lower rounds. Its happened before though. Whatever we have to do to find our lamaar woodley, lets do that.
There's no dollar sign on a peace of mind, this I've come to know. So if you agree, have a drink with me, and raise your glasses for a toast.
- Zac Brown
by BJ Kissel on Apr 13, 2011 10:28 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yesssshhh
Finding our Woodley in the 2nd round would be ideal. Less of a risk with a tweener in the 2nd round. I’m thinking NT 1st round, tweener 2nd round
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 11:32 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
that would be a great scenario
I’m not against trading back and/or up in order to snag Taylor AND one of the top SOLB prospects. Our defense will get better with the status quo considering how young they are as a whole.
There's no dollar sign on a peace of mind, this I've come to know. So if you agree, have a drink with me, and raise your glasses for a toast.
- Zac Brown
I guess he's alright....if you like that kinda player...
There's no dollar sign on a peace of mind, this I've come to know. So if you agree, have a drink with me, and raise your glasses for a toast.
- Zac Brown
Thats another good example from 2003
Suggs was a great collegiate DE that has become one of the better rush OLBs in the league, but we don’t need another one of those. Suggs is pretty decent against the run though, so I’ll put him a notch above Hali, but just barely ;-)
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 10:51 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Depth at that rush OLB spot AND a menacing player on the opposite flank that gives you pressure
even when you’re dropping random guys from the front 5 into coverage, but threatening at all times to bring ‘em all. Always getting a free run outta somebody, because the threats must be honored, whether they materialize or not. Blockers where nobody’s coming and an overload for the defense at another point of the line.
would of ≠ would've
last 3 years have been failure after failure
I’d rather Akeem Ayers be our OLB than trying to convert Kerrigan or Houston. Experience is worth its wait in gold in this topic.
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
Absolutely
Experience, especially at SOLB, is a major factor, I believe.
One point I tried to emphasize in the post is that these ‘tweeners would make a fine addition to any 3-4 team that needs a rush, WOLB. However, that is something we don’t need, and what we need requires much more than just rushing the passer, especially if we want them to be 3-down LBs.
Not saying it’s impossible for them to convert successfully to SOLB, though. A guy like Manny Lawson, who was brought into San Fran expected to be a big time pass rusher, has failed in that aspect, but has converted nicely to a strong SOLB candidate, as his pass coverage and run defense would suggest. Lawson has actually been one of my top 3 free agent targets this entire offseason, as I think he would make an absolute perfect SOLB for this team, and looking back at his history with San Fran and the fact that he was in the same position Tamba was in and the team lacked any pass rush help for Manny, perhaps teaming them up would free Manny up a bit and not put so much pressure on him that he couldn’t produce through
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 6:56 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
I wouldn't be opposed to Kerrigan
He’s got Athleticism. Just it might take him longer to learn to play coverage.
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Apr 13, 2011 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Absolutely.
Although then you come back to my never wanting a 1st rounder spent on OLB (or ILB), until other groups are solidified (and maybe not even then). I love those ‘tweeners, but they’re risky, which argues for Sheffield picks, year in and year out. I prefer high-floor guys with that 1st-round pick. Jackson, converting from DT to 3-4 DE was definitely a project, though.
Tamba Hali was a ‘tweener 1st-round DE pick who wasn’t quite panning-out in the 4-3. Capable of notching sacks from the edge, but lost in the wash against the strong side run. Of course, a lot of what he does, NOW, is a lot like straight 4-3 RDE stuff. And Dorsey plays a lot like under-tackle, and it doesn’t look very pretty when Tamba drops, not only because he’s not a great coverage LB, but because there’s no pressure from from Dorsey in 5-tech, all due respect to KaloPhoenix, above. I think Tamba moves well enough in space that we might not diss him quite so badly, if the ball were forced out more quickly by ANYbody other than Tamba.
would of ≠ would've
No disrespect taken, Mills.
Dorsey definitely has his moments where he doesn’t get the push that he should, and it (IMO) goes hand in hand with him getting too easily shoved off the line against double teams. Maybe it’s a strength issue, not being able to use his bull rush effectively to smash the talented/bigger guards in the league into the QB’s face. I do know that when he’s singled up, he really can use his hands and his quick first step(s) to get by some pretty agile blockers. Playing to his strengths in that way makes him a legit pass rushing/backfield damaging DE in our scheme. I see him as a guy that almost requires Tamba to his outside and a solid DT/NT to his inside to be most effective. He shows flashes of explosiveness and a nose for the ballhandler in those situations, so I’m anxious to put him there more often.
"Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you." -- Malcolm Reynolds
In other words, lining him up in the gap and playing under tackle is his thing.
Comes as no surprise, as that was what he was drafted to do. I think he’s made a lot of progress, but when you say “our scheme” and “our tendencies,” I can’t help but wonder how much the scheme is being tweaked to accommodate less than ideal players.
Even though Crennel is known as playing with a beast of a NT, I think his expertise with D and with D-Line is such that he’ll find the best thing to do with the guys he has, and a better 3-4 DE might give him more to work with than a crap-shoot NT.
You know you have a better DE, when the comparisons to Seymour are FAVORABLE, rather the standard opener: “Well he’s no Richard Seymour, but…”). So, from my perspective, if one of the top DEs falls and I like him better than Taylor, then I’m takin’ the DE. And, with my preference for the BIG THUMPER at SOLB, more uniform 3-tackle fronts make a little more sense. You can be a lot less predictable, more amoeba-like, in response to different OL makeups. Strong against strong or strong against weak, where YOU decide against an O-Line that’s essentially static. So they just have to do what they do as well as they can, while you can manipulate the matchups to greatest advantage. When you have a clear LDE-NT-RDE, it makes it a little easier for the offense to find what works for THEM.
would of ≠ would've
Agreed.
Romeo is the true King of finding what’s best out of his 3-4 D-line. I think that’s why the d-line was ignored in the draft/FA last year. I think he can do better with a Seymour style, of course, but that sort of DE is few and far between. I’d like to think that he’s happy with Dorsey as his LDE and to try to exploit that to his advantage.
"Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you." -- Malcolm Reynolds
by KaloPhoenix on Apr 14, 2011 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions
You mean RDE, of course.
And d-line wasn’t quite ignored, considering the arrival of Shaun Smith. I’m no expert, but I think Crennel saw some things close to the way I did, and would like to get some more punch out of the front 5. Edwards DID make the transition, and despite his years, he’s more mobile than the kind of classic NT after which so many of us are lusting.
would of ≠ would've
Thats kind of what I was leading to above
Does our d-line need continued work? Do our LBs (or just Tamba) make our D-line look better than they are when it should be thee other way around? I’m inclined to think that Pioli will want to improve the D-line before the LBs
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 10:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Can I say "both" and not be a fence-sitter?
SOLB, SILB, and NT need work. And in my opinion, NT>SOLB>SILB, but the combo of SOLB and SILB can make up for a crappy NT, and vice-versa. Ideally, we find serviceable versions of all three that will develop into solid-to-stud versions of all three.
"Now you can luxuriate in a nice jail cell, but if your hand touches metal, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you." -- Malcolm Reynolds
by KaloPhoenix on Apr 14, 2011 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions
I think that is what the team wants as well. we are still in the building stage, but
when you hear Pioli, it’s the same mantra over and over. Good, smart football players and a team, repeat TEAM, that just does everything plenty good, good enough to win.
I think I'd be OK with DJ and Belcher, with that Greenwood kid in the wings,
if there were improvements @ SOLB and DL, and, as I’ve said numerous times, I’m not pa’tick’ler about DE-vs-NT. I just want the better player, however you categorize him. Smith can pick up the slack at the other spot.
would of ≠ would've
Here's an idea, we take a true NT instead of making a Tweener out of a DT.
Phil Taylor in Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (for the children)
Daniel Thomas in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (also for the children)
Mark Herzlich in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club (come on people just do it for the children already)
Sounds great
Powe is a true NT, and can be had in Round 2 or 3
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
Powe? Meh
We know Powe’s limitations, and he struggled badly with pushing the pocket and penetrating the backfield.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 14, 2011 9:15 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I disagree slightly on the definition of "tweener" in the original post
It’s a guy who doesn’t have prototypical size for either of the two positions he’s closest to suiting. The first time I heard it was when it was applied to Jevon Kearse coming out of Florida. He was considered possibly too small to play end, but not suited for linebacker either. A tweener is not necessarily going to change positions when moving up to the NFL.
When the world slips you a jeffrey, stroke the furry wall.
by burntorangehorn on Apr 13, 2011 4:16 PM CDT reply actions
No doubt
Thats why I stated that some if these players may get drafted (and are being mocked) to 4-3 teams to continue to play DE. Guys like Kearse and many others I’m sure in every draft were labeled as tweeners but were drafted to remain as 4-3 DEs, and of course they weren’t on my list of successes and failures the last 5 years. The list of 2011 tweeners may be substantially lower after the draft depending on what teams take who, but there is a possibility that all of those tweeners go to 3-4 teams.
Formerly: FalconMF27
Thanks for the inspiration, Bajah!
by RememberDelaney37 on Apr 13, 2011 5:59 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions

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