Ward hits the NFL hard
by bonesjackson on Feb 1, 2011 11:54 PM CST
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PrintWas going to Fanshot this one as a quote but had too many quotes to do that. Hines Ward just missed a great slam that might have sold the point the players have made about the NFL not really caring about player safety. I will make that point he missed here....
Let's start with what Ward said...
They came out with these new helmets that are supposed to stop concussions. If they care so much about our safety, why don’t they mandate that we wear the new ones?
What Ward should have done is answer his own question. The lazy ass respectable media won't answer that question. The truth is that the NFL has no interest in mandating that players wear the safest helmets, in fact they are paid money in order for players not to wear the safest helmets. You see, the funny story is that helmet manufacturer Riddell pays the NFL a boat load of money to be the "official helmet" which means unless players request a specific helmet, the team will issue them a Riddell helmet designed in 1989. Helmet manufacture Schutt created a concussion protection helmet in 2004 but as the Schutt logo is not displayed and as players must strictly request this helmet, they are mainly worn by players that have signed an endorsement deal with Schutt or players like DeSean Jackson who after sustaining a concussion was given sound medical advise by a doctor.
Even the NFL's own committee of doctors that are researching concussions have said that they really don't believe that the NFL should have an official helmet.
Dr. Hunt Batjer, a committee co-chair, said his "preference" would be for there not to be an official helmet sponsor (Riddell's contract expires in a few years), and Dr. Robert Cantu echoed, "At least in my opinion, it's not a good thing." Dr. Ellenbogen pointed out that decisions such as that were made at a level above the committee's jurisdiction.
I think I will let Hines Ward finish off this post...
They (NFL) don’t give a fuck about concussions.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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There's a whole class of people who excuse lying by saying "it's just business."
No, it isn’t just business. It’s lying, and hurting people just to line your pockets.
You can catch these “just buisness” types in a bald faced lie where they were endangering other people’s safety, and they’ll just grin and walk off thinking “Oh well, guess he got me, heh heh.” Then they’ll try the exact same con five seconds later. It just doesn’t OCCUR to these people that they’re doing something wrong, it’s not in their value system.
Rec’d. The only way people’s attention is through public embarrassment, and of course by hitting them in the pocketbook.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
well, isn't that the definition of business?
It’s lying, and hurting people just to line your pockets
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
According to some.
The ones who look for any excuse, like the cheap tag line “it’s just business,” to justify selfishness. Not all businessmen are like that. But the ones who are decent people are definitely guilty of not policing their own professional ranks.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
They should mandate
Even Riddell makes a better concussion reducing helmet (no helmet will totally eliminate concussions). This has always been an interesting question.
But some of it is on the players also. If they cared more about their brains and less about looks they would switch on their own. Because they can wear the improved helmets if they want.
Also there are the ProCap, foam helmet cover, that significantly reduce head trauma but are ugly as sin and make you look like a dork. I think they should mandate the safer helmets for the golden boy QB position first. If kids see Manning and Brady wearing these kinds of things then they might follow suit.
I agree that the NFL should mandate the safer helmet...
but what the hell is wrong with the players that they won’t request the safer helmet? Is there some drawback to the Schutt helmet? Is it really just because it does not look as “cool” as the official helmet? Its a helmet for petes sake! Of course you look like a dork in it.
This has been kind of in line with my thinking as well.
Since they’re available, you should get one. You shouldn’t have to wait for someone to make you do it. Players know all too well what a serious concussion can do, why should the NFL make you get something that is readily available to you now anyway, when you know it is designed to help. Be proactive, don’t make someone babysit you.
The concussion issue effects players the most, but the helmet issue is on both sides. Each should take equal resposibility for these things not being more prevalently used.
I do think more players are making the switch, but the only database that could provide that info that I now of is not necessarily the most widely acceptable one, so I can be sure that that is the case.
I have not yet begun to procrastinate.
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 2, 2011 8:38 AM CST up reply actions
I remember being 21, 22
I never thought about crap. We forget these players are really kids.
why in the world would a respectable linebacker or safety pass up the perfect solid weapon like the current helmet?
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Without a past, we have no future.
by MarineChiefsFan on Feb 2, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
So it's their choice
If they choose “weaponry” over safety, that’s there call and the NFL is not to blame.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
If the players know about the safer helmet and don't request it
They are just as much to blame. Why does something have to be mandated before we do it?
It’s like seatbelts. People should wear them (duh). But somehow there needs to be a law about it, because we (the ignorant masses) aren’t smart enough to do what is best for us.
I agree that the NFL is more interested in profits than keeping players safe, and I hate that. But players should look out for their own interests (by requesting the helmets), not count on someone to babysit them (by whining about a mandate).
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
by MNchiefsfan on Feb 2, 2011 7:23 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
I could have sworn I replied to this comment...
Anyway, see above :)
I have not yet begun to procrastinate.
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 2, 2011 8:39 AM CST up reply actions
Haha yeah
I realized after I posted that North and I had said pretty much the exact same thing :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
MN nice analogy.
The thing is, if the NFL did mandate that the players need to wear the “safety” helmet. Then the players would complain and say that the NFL doesn’t care about their safety, just about its own image with the masses.
If there is a mandate, it should be that team doctors should help players decide what protective equipment should be required to wear for their own safety. The NFL has some of the best trainers and doctors in the world, they are more then qualified to decide who needs what IMO
meh...
by Chief-blinders-on on Feb 2, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
Things like this should be decided by each team and the doctors/trainers on that team.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Except the seat belt law is civil authority telling people how to behave in life,
where the helmet mandate would be an employer requiring safety equipment to be worn while on the job. No different than a factory requiring ANSI approved steel toe boots and hard hats.
Anyway, I think the main point of Ward’s comment, or what I took away from it anyway, is the reason that the NFL doesn’t mandate the safest helmet – money. If it weren’t for advertising deals, the safest helmet would be on the required equipment list in less than a heartbeat, just to save on retiree health benefits and “workers’ comp” type expenditures if nothing else.
In the same vein, here’s another little nugget – I remember awhile back that Urlacher got fined $100 for wearing a Vitamin Water hat at a press conference. And this year, he gets fined $5k for a hit that supposedly endangered another player’s safety. From this, I take away the kneejerk statistic that the NFL cares 20 times more about advertising deals than player safety. Now, of course I’m being a little tongue in cheek about that…but try to tell me that the NFL’s priorities aren’t 180 degrees out of whack with its public rhetoric. Question is, what does the public do about that?
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
by Brsrkr on Feb 3, 2011 6:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and a million times wreck'd!
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Good points all
But some factories allow you to choose safety equipment (the stamping plant I worked at being one of them). There were more and less safe things to wear, with the safer stuff being more uncomfortable.
That’s what I would compare this too. The players have the option.
However, you make an excellent point about the difference between a seat belt law and the helmet issue.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
That's why the helmets are different
This whole CBA negotiation is based on the 18 game thing, I think that the rules for players should be universal, you have to wear mouth piece, knee pads ect.. The business side of deals and contracts with companies won’t permit it so I imagine it will be a whole dog chasing it’s tale gig
We need BEEF; This is my mock prediction 2011
1. Houston LB - Georgia
2. Moffit G - Wisconsin
3. Powe NT - Ol' Miss
4. O'Dowd C - USC
5. Carter S - Oklahoma
6. V. Brown WR - San Diego State
7. Taua RB - Nevada
by Mas Cervezas on Feb 2, 2011 9:21 AM CST via mobile reply actions
18 game season is a terrible idea.
Are fans demanding it? No. Do the platers want it? No. The 18 game season is an idea driven purely by greed. As it currently stands, the average lifespan of NFL players is about 20 years shorter than a regular person.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
They are misunderstanding the fans if that is their excuse
Season ticket holders have to pay full price 10 games and they sell the preseason games at full price. Adding 1 extra home adds another (assumed) full house and having 2 extra weeks of football adds to the value of the next TV contract. I think the deal will be for 18 games to start when the current TV contract expires (2014 i think). When that is offered, the players will fold. Most will not be playing football in another 3 years anyways and will not be willing to miss checks for the next group of players. The only way they avoid 18 games is if the stars (QBs) hold firm. If Manning, Brady, Rivers, Ben, Rodgers, and other star QBs hold firm it will be hard for the NFL to move forward.
bones, it's no misunderstanding ... it's pure greed
and the owners are simply using the 18 game thing as a lame excuse to “bargain” with the NFLPA because they have nothing else … they certainly don’t have their books open to “prove” how much money they’re supposedly losing (because they’re NOT losing money, in fact they’re raking it in and they know it)
so they invent a bogus 18 game schedule so they can say “well ok, we’ll back off this EVEN THOUGH ALL THE FANS WANT IT if you (players) back off this or that”
it’s BS … and Slappy is right: we (fans) don’t want it either … it’s all about the dollar bill
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Because we need to make all sorts of rules to protect people from themselves
Even if they should know better. Right? :)
The players have the option. If they’re too shortsighted to care about their health, then that’s their own fault.
I’m getting a little sick of the players whining about EVERYTHING, even issues they have control over (like a helmet that they only have to request to wear).
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
not gonna argue that, MN
as long as the league has made it CLEAR that players DO have that option … I guess they have, but one has to wonder just HOW clear they’ve made it
and perhaps they’ve told the players that they lose some Riddell advertising dollars if the DO choose the safer helmet … not saying that’s the case, but a possibility
bottom line is: if safety is such an issue, why are the other helmets NOT mandated by the league?
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
That's a good point, and we have no way of knowing
But apparently its known the players (at least well known enough for Ward to complain about it).
And my point remains that they show safety is a priority by having the helmets available. The players can show THEIR true priorities by choosing the safer helmet.
While I have you, I wanted to apologize for some of my replies last night/this morning. Fight with the wife, up late doing homework… I think I was a little punchy. Sorry about that. I’m still working on agreeing to disagree rather than attacking opinions that differ from mine.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
no need to apologize, Sir :-)
and you have a good point: the players shouldn’t whine about safety if they have a clear choice and don’t take it … like you said: we don’t know for sure how many really know about the other (safer) helmets, but Ward knows
my point was/is: do ALL players really know? certainly all players SHOULD know, and SHOULD know they have a clear option (and that option shouldn’t be something that costs them money)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Good point
All players had better know. If not, there’s a serious problem.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Safety is an issue...
As far as keeping players on the field, returning investment and putting butts in the seats. Money will always be the driving force in this situation, and its clear that the contract with the helmet company has been weighed against how many concussions different helmets prevent; what do u think makes more money?
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Feb 3, 2011 7:39 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Also, it's highway robbery for the owners to charge season ticket holder full price for preseason games.
There’s nothing quite as good as fucking your most loyal customers.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
No, fans ARE demanding it,
proven by their willingness to pay for it. If owners didn’t think they could make money on it, they wouldn’t do it. And if more money is brought in by an 18 game schedule, then by default that proves it is something the majority of fans where willing to pay for.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
+1
Supply and demand. The demand is there, based on everything we as fans do. Now, increasing supply is the next step.
I have not yet begun to procrastinate.
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 3, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
It doesn't really matter to me if the league genuinely cares about player safety or just their own PR
At the end of the day, football is a dangerous game. No matter what protective equipment you use, there are still risks. It sounds like the players have the option of choosing the more protective helmets; and if they have that option, they should choose that. In either event, these guys go into the league knowing that there are certain risks associated with playing football, and if they’re too concerned about those risks, they have every right to pursue a different calling.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -Gandhi.
Mouth Guards
The other problem that is almost never talked about is mouth guards and how much they reduce occurrence of concussions. They should require all players to wear at least a grade 3 mouth guard (the kind LJ used). These cut down concussions alone almost as much as the new helmets, and together they virtually eliminate the problem.
Th cause:
During contact sports, blows of varying degrees are repeatedly delivered to the jaw and chin. The concussive vibration from these blows is conducted to the temporal bone of the skull, which contains cranial nerve trunks that exit the base of the brain and affect hearing, balance, and blood supply to the brain. The brain "floats" in cerebrospinal fluid and is protected by the skull. Unfortunately, the skull cannot protect or prevent the brain from incurring forces from a violent impact. The result is the chance of the brain rotating within the skull, causing a concussion.
A properly fabricated mouthguard covers and protects all of the teeth, especially the posterior teeth, with a prescribed thickness to diffuse impact to the jaw. The mouthguard separates the mandible and maxilla, thereby buffering the transmission of concussive effect to the base of the brain3,4 (Figure 3). The mouthguard also protects the anterior teeth from frontal blows by absorbing and dispersing the shock vibration that could cause severe damage to the maxillary anterior teeth.
Now QBs need more like a grade 1 guard because of communication needs. But they should still wear something.
If the NFL and the players really cared about player safety they would require: mouth guards and at least the following helmets
Riddell (Revolution, Speed, IQ), Schutt (ION 4D, AiR XP, DNA Pro+), Adams USA (A3000), Xenith (X1)
Very good point
Many experts will tell you that mouth guards do as much to prevent a concussion as the helmet. Rarely are NFL players seen wearing mouth guards. Interestingly, I would wonder what a study would show, as far as the concussion prone NFL players are concerned, and the correlation to the use (or lack thereof) of mouth guards in these specific instances…or all instances really.
While we’re on the issue of safety equipment not used, by choice, by NFL players…what’s with the no leg pads? These guys act like they are indestructible. Mouth guards and lack of pad protection lead me to believe that it is a player’s CHOICE not to utilize the newer helmets, thus making Ward’s argument self-serving at best.
Interesting discussion
When Ward says ‘they’ came out with new helmets, who did he mean? The league? It sounds from the discussion that a manufacturer produced these helmets to meet a need. It doesn’t say anything at all about their effectiveness vs. the Riddel helmets that the NFL currently endorses. Just because someone invents a better mouse trap doesn’t mean it truly works better.
That said, Ward is obviously aware that other helmets exist that could be safer. Does he wear one of these helmets? Is there a cost involved to a player for requesting this other helmet? So many unanswered questions. If indeed, this new helmet reduces concussions and it is currently a choice for players even though the league endorses Riddel, then why wouldn’t players request it? If a contract is currently in place to endorse Riddel products, then the league would have to honor that contract for it’s lifetime or be in violation of that contract, yes? If the teams are willing to provide the other helmet at the players request, it would seem to me that the endorsement is of the product for what it is and does, not what competition it has on the market. Ward comes off sounding like a player with some sour grapes about the league. Not that surprising given the lack of a CBA. Just more fodder for the cannon? Quite possibly.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
ummmmmmmm, better implies ... well, better ... duh
Just because someone invents a better mouse trap doesn’t mean it truly works better
invent a better mousetrap and you’ll catch a better mouse
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Come on UPS
you know the point here. How many sales pitches for ‘better mousetraps’ do you get inundated with daily? From junk mail, to internet ads to newsprint, it comes at you from all angles. I have not done any research on these helmets, have you? Do they really deliver what they say they do? It’s just another unanswered question in the blizzard of them that surround this comment by Ward.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
so you're saying Ward is wrong?
do YOU have stats on these other helmets? I don’t …
bottom line in my mind is this: if those other helmets ARE superior, then those are the ones they SHOULD be using, and the NFL SHOULD be making it MANDATORY … screw Riddell … it just shows, once again, that it’s all about the dollar bill
National Finances League
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
LOL
Not arguing the issue of greed with you, bud. I truly believe all these issues center around it…on both sides of the issue. However, I think you’re arguing semantics here. The point, that I think is being made, is that everything is advertised as “new and improved!” As opposed to “old and crappy”? If something is advertised as better, it isn’t necessarily so? Savvy?
Anyway, carry on. Fight the good fight. Stick it to the man, brother!
I agree, not everything that's supposed to be better IS better
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I didn't say ward was right or wrong
I was just questioning everything—I think I have seen some posts by you that recommend that. Am I wrong?
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
ohhhhhhhhhhh touche, Sir
carry on
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
You are acting like the players are in power
The players have requested this in several instances over last offseason. Its in the hands of the suits to actually provide the helmets.
According to some of the posts here
all the players have to do is request the other helmets. Exactly how does that put the choice of what to provide in the hands of the ‘suits’? Ostensibly, all a player has to do is ask and a different helmet will be provided. It looks like that is a player having the power over their own destiny to me. Or where did the train come off the tracks?
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
who's driving the train, Casey Jones?
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
The thing that is beyond me....
Is how ridiculously selfish these owners are. They act like they are the one’s taking a hit. Last time I checked, almost every nfl owner owns a multi million and sometimes billion dollar business outside of the nfl, thats how they got the damn money to own the team. Last time I checked we werent buying owners merchandise and we werent spending 265 bucks on sunday ticket to watch people work so corruptly at their desks. Its about the players and always will be. Most of these owners could go next season without gaining money from their team, and still make at least 500 million dollars from owning other businesses. They are that selfish that they wont give players a solid health care plan even when it doesnt hurt their pockets in the slightest? They are so insane that they want to cut salaries and increase games? They are so selfish that they are willing to take away over 50 million plus peoples favorite thing to look forward to, for no reason? Just ridiculous. Shame on them all
in fact, they have a new contract with the networks that will pay them (owners) even if NO GAMES ARE PLAYED
how’s that for covering their butts
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
yeah i know about that, it makes me sick to my stomach
they will make 40% more money if they have a lockout. I guess being among the richest men on earth isnt enough for these guys
But when a player holds out for more money he's just "being smart", right?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Wrong
Also i have absolutely no idea how a player holding out on a contract after exceeding expectations and increasing his worth is equal to someone not putting together a solid health care plan. Please explain
I wasn't talking about the health care plan
I was talking about you making it sound as if the owners are doing the worst thing in the world by setting themselves up to make more money in the event of a lockout. I find that amusing because people (not you, so I may have been out of line) often make it sound like it’s OK for a player to hold out for more money and violate the contract he himself signed.
Does that make sense? I was very tired…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
THAT
would be called good business. The networks knew exactly what chance they were taking with the CBA when they signed those contracts. They still signed. Who’s to blame for that? Come on ups, business is not the evil entity in every transaction.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
oh Aiken, are you kidding?
so the Networks pony up money to the NFL owners even if there’s no game … and the Networks get money were? well of course, they get it from advertisers, who in turn get it from you and me and millions of people who could care less about football
everything is related, Aiken … haven’t you learned that yet? when the cost of gas goes up, the cost of bread goes up because it’s more expensive to DELIVER the bread … in turn, the mechanic has to pay more to buy bread (and gas) so his rates go up as well, etc etc ad nauseum
so any corporation that advertises on those networks is paying the owners, and especially the ones who advertise during games … that in turn means they charge more for their services and products, and we end up footing the bill
which is all fine and well for many people, but when that kind of BS raises prices (as it inevitibly does) for granny on a fixed income and single parents with minimum wage jobs, people who have no clue or care what football is because all they’re trying to do is survive … then yeah, there’s a HUGE fucking problem with “priorities” in this great country of ours
sorry, Aiken … when we value cops, firement, teachers and nurses as much as we value sports players, actors, singers … then we’re in agreement
until then, the business ofentertainment and escapism (which includes football) looks pretty damned evil to me
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
by upamtn on Feb 2, 2011 7:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand your frustration, ups
The problem with valuing cops, firemen, teachers, and nurses as much as valuing athletes, actors, and singers is an issue of talent, supply, and demand (which I know bothers you).
The bottom line is there are millions of people who can be a cop, fireman, teacher, or nurse. There are not millions who can be an athlete, actor, or singer.
We value those who are extraordinary while we tend to overlook those who are ordinary, even if the ordinary people are the ones doing the MUCH more important work. Is that fair? No, it’s not. But it IS understandable.
And to blame those who are doing nothing but offering their talent (like those in the entertainment industry) is ridiculous. You know who is at fault? Individuals who place those entertainers on a pedestal, and direct all their money and attention towards those them.
Perhaps your anger would be better directed toward individuals rather than institutions. It’s very popular now to blame the system. Marriages are failing? Blame the institution of marriage. Schools are failing? Blame the institution of education. Health care is messed up? It must be the institution.
In reality, most of these problems can be traced back to people. But we don’t want to admit that, because it would mean admitting that human beings are not “good” by nature. So we blame institutions…
Now what were we talking about? I blacked out for a moment…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
in reality, MN, I think sometimes it's a little of both ...
marriage is all about people and relationships, no question of that … but take education as an example: yes there are PEOPLE who are doing the wrong thing (on both ends) but also its how the institution itself is set up … it’s a “cookie cutter” policy (all kids learn this and that in this grade and that grade, and at the same time and same pace) … problem is, not all kids DO learn at the same pace
so now you have kids who don’t “get it” and they get passed along to the next grade (social promotion) and then they get even MORE frustrated and even MORE behind … that’s not the fault of the teachers OR the kids … it’s the institution DEMANDING that cookie cutter policy, that whole “everyone is the same” when nothing could be further from the truth
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
They institution has and answer for this problem ups
it is called special ed. You simply cannot teach 5000 kids at their own pace. You’d need 5000 teachers to do it. You think education is expensive now? Add a few thousand teachers and watch the cost go up and the quality go down.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
actually, I have my own idea
namely: the kids that don’t want to learn should go out and work … the others, learn at their own pace, move on when they’ve mastered this or that concept, etc
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
That's (in a way) how it is done in Japan.
Although I’m not sure how I feel about all the pressure they put on the kids there, they certainly know when to cut someone loose if they aren’t interested in being educated.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
A good point with the cookie cutter policies
That’s why I’m an advocate of home-schooling (if it is done correctly).
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I have to disagree
It takes just as much talent to be a good nurse, policeman, fireman etc. Notice I said good. Millions of people could be singers actors and athletes. Maybe not good or great ones but still could be those things.
The most important thing you can do in life is help other people.
Sorry, that's just not true
All someone needs to be a good nurse, policeman, or fireman is a decent work ethic and at least average intelligence (and a great work ethic can often overcome a lack of intelligence).
Those aren’t issues of talent, but of character.
When I referred to athletes and entertainers, I’m talking about those who have the level of talent that allows them to make millions. There just aren’t many people like that.
Of course, some mediocre actors still make millions, so who knows? :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Altruism?
Altruism by UPS. What makes your sense of what should be valued more important or correct than anyone else’s? This is the root of what is wrong with this way of thinking. Ultimately, there still has to be someone making the final decision. Your way, you have to agree with that or be exterminated. My way, you can disagree and work towards making it different without fear of being ‘removed’ because you disagree. See? Societal ills will always exist ups. The only ‘way’ to overcome them is through a combination of faith and common sense…I think this is what is meant by “God helps those who help themselves”. Belief in a deity or not, there are much worse things to trust in and gain example from. :)
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
when did I say "exterminated"
but I can turn that right around at you, Aiken: what makes YOUR sense of value better or more important than mine (or anyone else’s)
not sure faith can cure societal ills, though … that takes a lot of communication, and it takes some people giving up some things, and nobody wants to do that
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Turning it around on me
makes my point. There is always somebody who is going to make the final decision on who gets what. In a Republic, we at least get to vote for representatives that will cast a vote and then we see what happens. In the tribal way of life, the Big Chief makes the final decision. If the Big Chief don’t like your hairy butt, you may just find yourself out of a teepee. I’d rather have the votes.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
in many of those, it's not "the chief" but rather a "tribunal" or comittee of elders ... and for those peoples, their way has worked for millions of years FOR THEM
and here’s the thing that bugs me: we think OUR way is the RIGHT way for EVERYONE
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
It is the best way
just because their way works for them doesn’t mean it is the best either.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
The issue isn't the basic IDEA of business, it's prevalent business practices.
And what people seem to consider to be acceptable. The point of business is “better, faster, cheaper.” In other words, to contribute to the efficiency of society and use of limited resources.
However, it’s widely believed that the point of business is simply to make money. No, that’s not true…it’d be more accurate to say COLLECT money since it’s not necessary that a useful product actually be produced.
In this particular case, the NFL could be collecting money from TV networks without producing a useful or desired product. That is NOT good business, it is a con game.
And since we seem to be getting slightly political here, I’ll just let it be known that I consider myself to be very conservative. Actually, conservative to the point where I’d worry that if I ever met Ups in real life we might cancel out in a violent spontaneous combustion.
"The key to victory is not your strength, but your opponent's weakness." -T.
Brsrkr
It is only a ‘con game’ if indeed the intent of those owners was to defraud those networks by intentionally not providing a product. At this point, the owners are in discussions with the players about providing that exact product. If a work stoppage happens because of the inability to come to agreement between management and labor, it falls to the contract to figure out what happens. These franchises and TV networks spend millions of dollars on maggot lawyers to tell them what they sign and shouldn’t sign. I don’t think that it was ever the intent of the NFL to not provide a product. If it happens and the owners still get paid because of signed contracts for the product then I submit that those networks knew it before hand and agreed to it as it was in the contract. They agreed to it so that they could continue to make money off of that product once the work stoppage is corrected. It is a much bigger picture issue than you are willing to give it credit for. If the networks agreed to pay, even if a CBA wasn’t reached, then it was because they saw the revenue coming from that product that they could replace in no other way. It was ‘worth’ it to them to do so. It is all about the money. In this case, money paid for no product pales in comparison to money made off said product once product is once again available. It is as MN said, supply and demand. It’s just business.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Ummmmm,
Are you really Obama in disguise?
They are that selfish that they wont give players a solid health care plan even when it doesnt hurt their pockets in the slightest?
Who, exactly, would pay for this health care plan that you speak of that wouldn’t cost the owners any money? If you can answer that question sweetheart, I just might vote for you for President in 2012.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Aiken....
If you already make 500 million dollars from a business outside of the NFL and make millions from being an NFL owner, would adjusting your fiscal management to provide the source of the game really hurt your pocket? Lets just be asinine and say we wont even change the income of the owners, they could still provide solid health care with easy budget cuts. For starters decrease the rookie salary and require a perform to pay ratio clause in a lot of the high pick contracts. That alone will cover a pretty large percentage of the health care. The owners arent taking a significant hit any shape or form. And the way (to me) you are looking at the situation is that we should worry about the fiscal hits the owners take. That is insane. TV contract agreement or not, the NFL is about the players. There is no feasible argument for anyone who believes the owners are the one being wronged. Vote me 2012
I understand now
by not hurting their pockets, you meant that they still have plenty of money even if they have to pay for that health care plan. I am not sure that they would agree with you that this ‘redistribution of wealth’ should be decided by anyone but them. It is afterall, their money.
This country came about because of a revolution against that kind of thinking. Just because someone has a large sum of money does not mean that they should just turn some of it over to someone else because they don’t have it. Many of these owners are very active in charity work. That is called ‘giving back’ and they get to decide where that money goes because it belonged to them in the first place. The NFL may be about the players, but without the owners to manage those franchises, the chaos that would ensue in trying to run them as democracies would dissolve the NFL. Without the NFL, those players would be working at Quicktrip, making $8 an hour because many of them have no formal education to fall back on. To make the argument that these players are not already being fairly compensated is to ignore the alternatives. The NFL minimum is now, what like $500k? On top of that there is a retirement program that the NFLPA runs that I believe is contributed to by the league (thus the owners).
This is not about who is being wronged—I don’t think anybody is. It is about what is fair compensation in a job that is difficult to compare to others because of it’s nature. Collective bargaining has been around a long time and it will continue. To take the side of the players with little regard for the ‘rich and uncaring’ owners, shows a bias because those owners have money. The NFL should be, and is, looked at as a business that supports itself. If Jerry Jones can’t make the payments on a $1 billion dollar stadium from the proceeds of what that franchise earns, then he can’t. If that is a consequence of being a bad business manager, then the business will fail—unless he chooses to find money from somewhere else. That is entirely up to him and should not affect what the players make—unless he wants it to. There is only so much money being earned by those frachises and while the players are the focus, the owners are the ones who have negotiated the contracts with TV and others that help pay the salaries and expenses of the whole organization.
I just don’t understand the attitude that because someone has deep pockets, they are supposed to ‘give’ money to someone else because that other person has need of it. It should be and, I think, will be based on a collective bargaining agreement. If those owners choose to pay employees out of their own pocket. that, fine it is their choice. Just as it is their choice not to. Neither of those choices makes that wealthy person inherently bad.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
wait, so they went to college on a scholarship for 4 years and have NO EDUCATION? damn, Aiken ... it's more fucked up than I thought
Without the NFL, those players would be working at Quicktrip, making $8 an hour because many of them have no formal education to fall back on
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Well, in a way I'm with you on this...
They have college degrees. An education might be a different story though.
I have not yet begun to procrastinate.
by NYSteelersFan4 on Feb 3, 2011 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
Aiken, you're right ... the wealthy of the world should get wealthier while the poor get poorer ... the gap between the wealthy and the poor should increase and ... oh wait, that's happened already
I just don’t understand the attitude that because someone has deep pockets, they are supposed to ‘give’ money to someone else because that other person has need of it.
something to think about: our “society” or culture is one where a few people control the wealth and, accordingly, the food … those in power control the rest of us … our society or culture is also the only one where SOME go hungry while OTHERS are well fed … in addition, our society and culture is the only one with rampant unemployment, drug abuse and high crime rates
on the other hand, cultures that we like to call “primitive” know of no classes like we have: when one eats, they all eat … there is no crime, no suicide, no murder, no unemployment, no drug abuse, no mental sickness … go study other cultures in the world and find out for yourself, it’s 100% true
and if I may suggest: read a book called Ishmael by Daniel Quinn … it might open your eyes :-)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Freedom is what it is, ups
Capitalism allows opportunity for everyone. Unfortunately, this also calls for the “not so well to-do” to be the laborers of these companies to gain this capital, and there is no shortage of them. Not everyone can get through school and college for one reason or another, which is what causes most people to go hungry or not. Those that “control the wealth” have taken full advantage of our society’s opportunities and create jobs for the rest (hopefully, if they don’t fully automate or ship jobs overseas). Such is life in America. Same goes for the NFL.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Feb 2, 2011 9:02 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
But apparently any system that can possibly lead to inequality is unfair
Never mind the fact that we are not all, in fact, equal.
In today’s society it’s tough to not have a chance at education. it’s free until after high school, after which you have multiple grant and loan options available (as well as scholarships if you’ve applied yourself).
Those who do not make it are more often a victim of their own poor choices than of some outside “force” working against them.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
to an extent
My 22 year old son is caught in the middle. I make too much for him to get a grant and not enough to pay for all his college education. They even count my income against him when he supports himself out side my home. That is not from poor choices but a govenment run by elitist who already have their education and could give a damn about my kid getting a chance to be educated.
The most important thing you can do in life is help other people.
Very true
It’s a tough system when they seem to expect parents to provide for children that are out of the house.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Yeah, ancient tribes had no classes or murder or anything...
Oh wait, nope, that’s not true. The Aztecs and Mayans slaughtered those they viewed as their enemies, and DID have a class system in place. Of course, we’re not talking about them, right? Only… what tribes are we talking about here? And who in particular was studying them? I’d love to see some research done on tribes with no crime, no suicide, no rape, no murder, and a total sharing of everything among everyone in the community while everyone works hard and no one is below anyone else.
Please, please, PLEASE show me research that gives clear evidence of this type of society existing. Anywhere. I’m begging you. And I mean legit research, not someone guessing based off the two weeks they spent observing from a distance.
Ups, I find it stunning that you mock those who share my faith (which you have, and that’s ok, to each his own), but you seem to base the vast majority of your beliefs on the fictional musings of a telepathic gorilla.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
MN, don't hold it against UPS
He is a victim of the liberal agenda that controls the minds of teachers. He can’t help himself. Some of the stuff he has read in his life has hip-mo-tized him into believing this stuff. He says to question everything, but what he really means is to question everything that doesn’t fit into his well defined universe. That questioning is only to cast aspersion on those things that his belief system can’t explain. As much as he rails against some of the things that I espouse, he does the exact same thing about those that he does. He just doesn’t understand that he is doing the exact same thing that I am.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
I agree to a point, and it at times bothers me
But I crossed the line with how I presented myself and my argument. I apologized to him in a reply above. It was a rough night last night…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
sorry you DID have rough night ... take it easy, it's about to get rougher
you have a long road ahead, my friend :-)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
gee Aiken, and here I was feeling sorry for you, a victim of the right wing conservative mantra
thing is, Aiken, we come from two diametrically opposed viewpoints … there’s little chance we’ll “meet in the middle” on very much of anything (other than we both love the Chiefs)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
We agree on more than that
Water is wet, the sky is blue etc. It is just in those miniscue viewpoints that we are different my friend. I’d still buy you a beer and share my pizza with you.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
MN, the telepathic gorilla was the medium ... forget the medium and focuz on the message
and I’m not about to do your research for you … do it yourself :-)
of course, the author was (and is) a pretty damned well educated and respected sociologist, so I’m “assuming” he did some research himself … but don’t take his word, or mine … do some research and then, if what you find out is different, let me know
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
How is he so well educated? All due respect to him, but from what I can see
I’m a semester away from being as well educated as he is.
A bachelor’s in English does not a sociologist make. He’s a writer with an opinion. He’s not qualified to be considered a historian or a sociologist. He was a publisher for years, not a scholar.
This bugs the crap out of me. People like his message so they treat him as though he’s spent a decade doing historical research on man’s history (he hasn’t) or he’s earned multiple doctorates in sociology or philosophy (nope).
I don’t see anything in his biography of him ever doing ANY firsthand research to back up the assertions made about “primitive” cultures.
So given his lack of history in the field of anthropology, his lack of extensive education, and general lack of impressive credentials, why should his opinion be taken more seriously than that of any other college-educated writer with an opinion?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
here's one reason ... something else from Quinn, that isn't "just opinion"
Beyond Civilization, a nonfiction work that explores, among other relevant topics, tribal ways of making a living that work here and now
but remember too, he worked as managing editor of the Greater Cleveland Mathematics Program (Science Research Associates), and head of the mathematics department at Encyclopedia Britannica Educational Corporation … and Ishmael itself is about sustainability, the mathematics of population growth, and population growth is a function of food supply
In 1998, 2 yrs after Ishmael, he collaborated with environmental biologist Alan D. Thornhill, PhD, in producing a video called Food Production and Population Growth … so he has a PhD working with him and backing up his views, an environmental biologist PhD
better?
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Yeah, it's hard to argue with them mathmatishuns
wasn’t it back in the 1800s or so when them there Malthusians said the world would over populate by 1900? Problem was that they didn’t take into consideration the improvements in agriculture that would be discovered or the actual decrease in that geometric explosion of population that happens has societies values change. Yep, sure hard to argue with them there smartie britches.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
A little, sure. And I don't mean to imply that he's unintelligent
Anyone who has read his work can see that he’s got a great mind.
All I meant was that the ideas put forth in Ishmael are opinions, not scholarship.
Well thought out and eloquently put opinions, but opinions.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I'm with that, MN
thought I’d also add that even someone who spends years truly studying the same things MIGHT come up with the same opinions (not necessarily, but possibly … the point being: an “expert” might say the same things and come to the same conclusions: would it have any more “weight” with you because that someone had degrees in the subject?)
ir, does one NEED a field specific degree to have a “valid opinion” of issues?
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Ah but there is a college education and then the real world.
Look at the mess we are in right now in the United States. We have people running this country that has never even ran their own business and has no idea what it takes to build something and make it successful. Its no offense to them they just haven’t done it before. Experience is underrated and as many people I have ran into that have a college degree (whether it be a Bachelor’s Degree or a Master’s Degree) and come out of college knowing everything and how to fix this world it is really just sad.
look at Dubya: he was Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces
after pretty much skipping out on a stint in the National Guard
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Me and you can talk all day about this.....
We are on the same page I feel anyway when discussing this topic. How many kids are there out there with employment agencies and so forth hiring people to do jobs that have no clue what he job they are hiring for really consists of. Its sad and I hope I am not around when it all comes crashing down.
I've read that this is a reason
That more employers are now looking for people who have gone to “business college” and other degrees that haven’t traditionally been considered as “prestigious”.
They teach about how to solve problems in the work force rather than the practically meaningless drivel taught in many college courses.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
That's funny Ups
I woulda figgered that you would support a ‘doger being in control of the war machine. That-a-way, we wouldn’t be out there lookin’ fer a fight. :)
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
well apparantly he was pretty much a dodger and STILL went out lookin' for a fight, huh Aiken
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Very true
However, in some cases education does make a great deal of difference (like when someone is attempting to break down human history), as does firsthand research (which goes right along with your idea of experience).
Your point about experience only underscores why Quinn is no expert on human history or sociology. He has no real experience in either field. He is a remarkably intelligent man and an excellent writer, but that’s the extent of it.
And by the way, I TOTALLY agree with you about the people who are attempting to run the country (right now and for decades).
I had a professor tell me once that the most ignorant people are generally those who just got some kind of degree, because they believe in their own resume to the point that they are blind to all they do not know… I really, really hope that doesn’t happen to me during or after law school.
I’ll have to beat the crap out of myself, and that’s always tough…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
MN, I think I can safely say that will NEVER happen to you
you’re far too intelligent and aware to allow it to happen … aware of the world and others, and very much self-aware as well … you have a great head on your shoulders, a steady and even keel, and you give a LOT of thought to what you do and say
and it’s very much appreciated
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Ups, the situation that you discuss
is the way that it is and it has been that way since man stepped out of the primordial soup (I had to put that in there because this is the only description of creation that you will understand or recognize). None of the things that you say are as true as you would want others to believe. A modern approach to solve this:
something to think about: our "society" or culture is one where a few people control the wealth and, accordingly, the food … those in power control the rest of us … our society or culture is also the only one where SOME go hungry while OTHERS are well fed … in addition, our society and culture is the only one with rampant unemployment, drug abuse and high crime rates
on the other hand, cultures that we like to call "primitive" know of no classes like we have: when one eats, they all eat … there is no crime, no suicide, no murder, no unemployment, no drug abuse, no mental sickness … go study other cultures in the world and find out for yourself, it’s 100% true
Is this:
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
—Karl Marx in his 1875 Critique of the Gotha Program.
I would suggest that you read the Critique of the Gotha Program to open your eyes, but you already agree with this postulate so it wouldn’t help. :)
The truth is that no matter how hard society tries to erase a class system, there is still always someone who makes the final decisions. Whether it be money or power, no society is bereft of this problem. Hedonists have been looking for that perfect place in the sky forever. Given the constraints of the real world we live in, the Capitalistic system is far and away the best choice for the individual and the U. S. is the greatest country on the face of the planet. If you don’t agree, that’s ok, but remember that when you voice your opinion here, nothing much happens to you. When you voiced your opinon in Iraq (prewar) if the state disagreed with you, you stood a good chance of having your tongue cut out and being thrown off a building. The true tragedy is that some of those folks eyes finally opened on the way down.
It is utterly amazing that the only people who don’t understand what a great country this is, are some of the ones that live here.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Aiken, the problem isn't "capitalism"
I have no issues with capitalism itsef (although what we have isn’t pure capitalism anyway, but that’s beside the point) … and I don’t disagree this is a great country, Aiken … it’s awesome, and we’re lucky to live here (we’re also spoiled and greedy, but that’s also another story)
the difference between us, Aiken, seems to be this: you’re the type who says “America, love it or leave it” and I’m the type who says “America, let’s fix what’s broken”
I don’t want to LEAVE it, I just want it to work better for everyone, not JUST the ones who are already wealthy (speaking of which, why is it “ok” for some people to be “born wealthy” and others to be “born poor” … I can understand everyone having to EARN their own way, and I have zero issues with that, none at all … but don’t tell me that “everyone is equal” when some are born with a “silver spoon in their mouth” and have the benefit of having the best of everything from the get go)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I agree with you
about the capitalism statement, but our brand is the closest to pure capitalism that exists. I NEVER said love it or leave it. What I did say is that many people who live here don’t realize how great this country is—maybe that should have said they ACT like they don’t.
As far as the silver spoon crowd, do you believe we are responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
no, but maybe we're responsible for CONTINUING their sins, and if so that's the real issue ...
do you believe we are responsible for the sins of our ancestors?
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
As far as "silver spoons" go, ups...
My grandfather was born into an incredibly poor family. He left at 12 to escape his abusive father, and joined the army at 16 (lied about his age somehow). He managed to build up a career to the point that he was only poor by the time my dad came around.
My dad then took out loans and earned scholarships so he could get himself a college and master’s degree (with no help from his relatively poor parents), and thus furthered his career. He moved up from poor to middle class.
I’ve used the chances I got from being a “middle class” kid (decent schools, some limited help from parents with college) to attain a bachelor’s degree and gain admittance to a top 20 law school.
Now I’ll get to my point… given that the average starting salary from a UMN Law graduate is over $75,000 and my kids are only 4, 2, and a week away from being born, they are going to have opportunities that I would have never had, with relatively well-off parents.
So here’s the question I put to you… Is it REALLY not fair that my kids are going to have money by the time they are ready for college? With all the generations and all the work that has gone into getting the Keysor family to this point?
Many kids are "born wealthy’ because parents have worked their tails off for years to give their kids a better life.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Aiken, don't twist my words into some anti-capitalistic tree hugging rant.
I never stated anything about the owners giving up their money. I stated that plain and simple, cutting proven hard working players salary and no feasible health care plan is wrong. How they get the money to get players health care and prevent player income cuts could be done with some good budgeting. Decrease rookie salaries, set up a performance to income ratio for high draft picks…we’ll call it “The Aaron Maybin Clause.” Everything that is affiliated with football is inflated extremely in price, so they obviously have a lot of budgeting problems if they cant provide their athletes with healthcare.
You said and i quote “Without the NFL, those players would be working at Quicktrip, making $8 an hour because many of them have no formal education to fall back on.” That is one of the dumbest things I’ve read in my 15 years of living. These guys all went to college for at least 2 years. If anything the NFL might have the most college-educated population out of any company in the world. And some of the guys you are referring to are insanely intelligent young men that just have made a few bad decisions in the world of fast cars and beautiful women. Myron Rolle, a rhode scholar, yeah im pretty sure that guy would do a little better than “Quicktrip”. Our own Eric Berry made SEC academic honor roll in college several times. These guys are just as smart if not smarter than everyone on these blogs.
You seem to be insinuating that the owners are the ones doing the real work and the players are just neanderthals. If it wasnt for the players there is no NFL. The same can also be said for owners, but dont bullshit yourself into thinking that the nfl is a give (owners) and take (players) relationship. Agenda-filled TV contracts aside, the league doesnt make any money without the players.
I typed about owners incomes that they receive yearly outside of the NFL, because elitist wanna-be’s like you who are ass-kissing the owners are acting like they will be taking huge financial hits if they give into the players requests. I was stating theoretically, even if they cut a small amount of their take from the team to give to the players, they wouldnt take a significant financial hit because they have other fiscal resources.
I am pro capitalism, but I am not pro corruption. These men have an agenda and you can try to make yourself feel superior to those who sympathize with the players but at the end of the day neither you or me is going to be watching football next season. And i’m pretty sure the owners aren’t gonna give you a cookie for kissing their ass on a blog so i guess we both lose.
shout it from the mountain, hallelujah brother! :-)
You said and i quote "Without the NFL, those players would be working at Quicktrip, making $8 an hour because many of them have no formal education to fall back on."
And some of the guys you are referring to are insanely intelligent young men that just have made a few bad decisions in the world of fast cars and beautiful women. Myron Rolle, a rhode scholar, yeah im pretty sure that guy would do a little better than "Quicktrip". Our own Eric Berry made SEC academic honor roll in college several times
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I have no idea what the deal is with Aiken
i wont hold it against him all of the time on here but the stuff hes typing is just illogical
not in HIS mind it isn't
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
All due respect
But are Myron Rolle and Eric Berry the exception or the rule?
Are there more college grads or more college dropouts in the NFL?
Are there more people who are Rhodes Scholars or more young men who are barely intelligible when they talk?
I agree that not all players would be lost without the NFL, but you must admit that the majority of them would not be in NEARLY as good a financial situation as they are now. Not even close.
How is that illogical?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
MN
I didn’t realize that I was talking to someone with a whole 15 years of life experience when I made my post. This young man is very eloquent for his years and does a nice job with the english language. I would also think that as that life experience grows, he will become wiser and then he will be able to understand to a larger degree what my point was.
No disrespect to him whatsoever. He writes pretty well. I think a bit more time will make him even better.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Woah there
you are making a lot of far fetched statements.
“Are there more people who are Rhodes Scholars or more young men who are barely intelligible when they talk?”
Do you know what a rhode scholar is? It is given to usually no more than 1 american college student every year. And it has skipped a couple years. Your statement is like saying “are there more bill gates or homeless people?”
Also
“I agree that not all players would be lost without the NFL, but you must admit that the majority of them would not be in NEARLY as good a financial situation as they are now. Not even close.”
The financial situation they are in is very rare. You can say that nearly no one would have a good as a salary in comparison to football players. It doesnt take 4 yrs at Harvard to make $50,000 dollars or more in america. Yes a solid 15% of these guys would be working at mcdonalds but the raw smarts it takes to be a nfl football player along with a college education could get you some pretty good jobs in the us. And there are plenty more examples than EB and myron, they were just the first two that came to mind. Guys like Ray Lewis, Peyton Manning, Ed Reed, Troy Polamalu, Patrick Willis, LT, all have the god given intelligence to get a pretty good job in the nfl. Theyd just have to find places to apply it
At that level, money isn't really the issue.
It’s power. When you already have enough money to buy everything you could possibly need, or even use, the only thing left is to use it to leverage more power. And no one has been able to prove Lord Atherton wrong about the effects of power. What is now needed is an upstart league to challenge the status quo by delivering a good product at a better price—kind of like Lamar’s AFL.
In a perfect world
Professional athletes and movie stars would sit around bitching about how much police and teachers get paid.
The players don’t have to play. If they choose to not play because they don’t like the deal, they can leave.
The Owners don’t have to have a season, team, media deal, municipal deals etc… Ask a city that has lost a team.
Supply and demand, if you want football then the guys that “make” football will purchase their resources (read players, media, stadium et all) and produce their product, amid labor negotiations, taxes, marketing etc…
They will work this out, and I’ll be the most happy if both sides are pissed off when it is over. To me that means they got it right this time.
I'm not a smart man
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