A Fork In The Road For The Kansas City Chiefs
by Flowers24 on Dec 29, 2011 5:00 PM CST
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With the 2011 season drawing to a close this Sunday, it's time we take a look at the future. While it's disappointing the Kansas City Chiefs fell short of a second straight playoff berth, they still have many pieces in place. However, one enormous question remains.
Should Scott Pioli try to re-sign Kyle Orton/keep Matt Cassel, or draft a young quarterback and hope that you get a great one.
With Matt Barkley and Landry Jones returning to school, only Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III seem like quarterbacks worthy of a first round pick. Griffin III might be around when Kansas City makes its selection but Luck will be long gone. To get a QB in April, Pioli would probably have to trade up by dealing multiple picks.
If the Chiefs are going to take a QB they better do it in the first or second round. I know Tom Brady was drafted in the sixth, but statistics show almost every star QB is taken early.
The risk of making such a choice is greatly reduced because of the new CBA. No longer are top picks awarded a contract of $50 million guaranteed. While Pioli would still be pushing his chips into the middle of the table, he would maintain cap flexibility.
However, this team has a lot of talented players just entering the prime of their careers. If Pioli swings and misses on a QB in the draft, years will be wasted.
On the other hand, if Kansas City stands pat and signs Kyle Orton/keeps Matt Cassel, the team might be stuck in neutral only delaying the inevitable.
Kyle Orton definitely throws a nicer deep ball and goes through his progressions better than Cassel. Cassel has better ball security and seems like more of a leader on the field. Both has different strengths and yet both have glaring weaknesses.
The only question that needs to be asked is this: Can either of them drive this team to a Super Bowl?
The Chiefs have to figure this out right now. This team needs depth but first and foremost needs a legitimate QB in the worst way. The defense is starting to become dominant even without Eric Berry. Does Pioli decide to go heavy on the defense in this draft? Possibly take an inside linebacker and a nose tackle?
Or does Pioli make that move for a QB, pick up some pieces in free agency and go for the brass ring in that capacity?
In my eyes, the defense looks like something special with a few more pieces. Kansas City should draft the best ILB and NT in the draft. Load up on defense, pray everyone comes back healthy and add a few offensive linemen in free agency. The only way Pioli should take a QB is if Griffin III falls and the organization thinks he's the answer.
Turnovers kill you, but Orton should be the choice over Cassel. He has a much better arm and can scare opposing defenses into backing off the line. Add in Jamaal Charles and Tony Moeaki for Orton to work with and we could finally see a prolific attack.
I hate interceptions, but Kansas City needs someone who can challenge the defense. Orton makes a team cover every receiver on a play, not just the first option. Kyle Orton isn't a special QB but with a very good team he could win big. He's never been given a prolonged chance with any talent. He's thrown for 299+ yards twice as a Chief in two games. Cassel has done that three times in his career here.
You have to appreciate the way Cassel works but at some point the production has to be there. With a great team Cassel might be able to win, but I'm not sure. If Kansas City is in the playoffs and can't run I have no faith in him winning the game with his arm. I believe Kyle Orton can do that.
Hire Josh McDaniels as the offensive coordinator and let him work with Orton again. Keep Crennel as the coach, let him worry about the defense and let McDaniels run the offense.
One thing is for sure, the Chiefs are at a fork in the road. They need to make the correct turn.
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+4
resign Kyle trade up a few spots to snag rg3 let Kyle play till he messes up then draft D and o line
by kcchiefs2782 on Dec 29, 2011 8:20 PM CST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
+476
What, I just polled a bunch of people outside!!!!
*Follow me @ChiefsatWar (Twitter)
Clark Hunt & Pioli, get some KING KONG BALLS and move up to draft a QB in the 1st RD of the 2012 NFL Draft: RG3 or Luck.
by ChiefsatWar on Dec 30, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
Just looked in the back of the book
A & C is the correct answer
by Streetcleaner on Dec 29, 2011 11:38 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
As Chiefs fans why are we so fickle?
We’re like that really attractive girl who sleeps with literally everyone who makes eye contact, desperately seeking out love and always coming up short… Orton had a couple good games and in the long run is a decent QB… with stats very comparable to Matt Cassel’s. Kyle Orton can throw the deep ball pretty well. Matt Cassel will dive headfirst to gain that first down. Kyle Orton gets easily flustered when he is pressured. Matt Cassel gets easily flustered when he is pressured. Kyle Orton goes through progressions. Matt Cassel got worked up and came back out on the field and beat the shit out of the opposing team to prove a point. Both QBs are known as ball protectors. Ball protector is not a term I can use without giggling like a school girl. I like Orton, and am more than happy to see them duke it out and let the best man win, but let’s look at reality here: Orton is not some huge upgrade from Matt Cassel. We owe Cassel lots of money. Matt Cassel works his ass off and when he is on he is on. If we can get a line in front of him he can become a decent QB in the national football league.
Do any of you REALLY think Scott Pioli is going to look at 2/3 games, decide Orton is the man and just dump Cassel? Close your proverbial legs and observe some patience. Well let me hit it THEN do that…
The Kansas City Chiefs, ruining playoff hopes since 2010
Funny.
I mostly agree with this, except for your reason to stay loyal to Cassel. If I’m not wrong, I believe we already paid him the bulk of his contract. I don’t think there’s much of a fiscal excuse for loyalty left.
Other excuses for loyalty – he knows the players, he knows the system, players like him (maybe?), he likes the other players (maybe?)… There are probably others, but I can’t think of any that aren’t mostly subjective. I really don’t think Pioli himself has any objective reason to prefer either Cassel or Orton other than their play on the field.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I agree resign Orton
Thing is people keep talking about Orton turning ball over but in Chicago he was known for how well he took care of the football. He came to Denver with no defense or run game and they relied soley on him passing so the picks began to pile up. I think this team has way more upside with Orton at the helm. He’s more decisive, quicker release, and throws better deep ball. I think allow Orton start trade Cassel for 3rd or 4th rd pick and have Stanzi come in be the backup.
Orton and Cassel
have nearly identical INT% over their careers. Orton is probably more of a fumbler but it’s a myth that Cassel takes care of the ball more when passing.
One year is a statistically significant sample size
when fans discuss sports.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Orton has fumbled the ball than Cassel
In 70 games Orton has fumbled the ball 16 times…. as opposed to Cassel fumbling the ball 18 times in 69 games.
Orton had more of a fumbling problem when he was in Chicago. Cassel on the other hand has buttery fingers still.
Go Chiefs!!!!
So IOW
they’re virtually the same at protecting the ball. So it becomes a matter of who can best move the ball, and that’s an easy choice.
ding ding ding
and for our winner today we have a BRAND NEW CAARRR!
by readANDgold58 on Dec 29, 2011 7:31 PM CST up reply actions
I'm happy with the current Carr. Thanks though.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
by Falcon58 on Dec 29, 2011 7:36 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
The stats are dead freaking even
I have poured over them…neither is the answer. I promise you if we sign Orton to a 3 year deal AP will be ripping Orton at this time 2 years from now.
Different teams, different coaches, different teammates, etc.
He’s thrown for 299+ yards twice as a Chief in two games. Cassel has done that three times in his career here.
You're way better than that, Tark
You’re going with a sample size of 2 to decide on this guy?
And we scored 16 ppg the last two weeks against bad D’s, and everyone wants to throw this guy a parade?
Yards per game means little to me. YPA, they both have 6.6 in their career. Career stats are more valuable to me than 2 games.
I'm not saying that.
Cassel has done nothing with the same team that Orton has at least shown promise. And that’s with very little chemistry and a hurt finger.
I’m not saying Orton is a franchise QB. I’m saying I think he’s much better than Cassel, and the Chiefs could do a lot worse with him as a bridge to their QBOTF.
You disagree. I get that.
I'm saying that there are no stats to back up the statement that he is much better than Cassel
None.
Personally, I think Orton is slightly better, but I think that is mostly based on me being biased b/c I’m mostly sick of Cassel like everyone else here.
Stat wise, nothing says he is better. And if you take the time to remember your opinion of Orton before he came here, or read what people in Den say about him…you may realize that we’re just looking for ‘anyone but Cassel.’ Which may be popular, but not an improvement.
My opinion of Orton hasn't changed.
I’ve always thought he was much better than given credit for, and he was never really given the opportunity like Cassel has had. I’m not just going by two games.
Put this mental clip in your mind… Orton play action faking to JC on an outside stretch. Looks right for bowe, steps up in pocket to hit Baldwin on a double move down the sideline.
Twitter: @RaiderHater86
by ExRoyalsFan on Dec 29, 2011 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
Yes...visualize great things happening
And you’ll convince yourself that he’s way better.
Agreed. Or look at their body of work objectively, and realize that neither is the answer.
They have the same number of career starts
They have both had ample opp.
It is not a vote in Orton’s favor, imo to say he’s been run out of two teams.
actually the stats say the past 2 years Orton put up 7.03 and 7.34 . The Bears were not a passing team and Matts first year he played with a record setting offense and still managed only 7.16
Cmon now you are completely ignoring that .
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 10:18 PM CST up reply actions
doesnt matter if we were not a passing team the team in the end was still 100% Matts team . Ortons never had a team but got equal results
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
Well...you're giving Orton a pass b/c he was on a running team in Chi
So his stats suffered. I’m saying we were clearly a running team last year.
What is this 100% Matt’s team stuff? Orton was the starter for almost 4 full seasons, what else is he supposed to ask for? What, he want’s a sticker that says, ’I’m the man.’
It doesnt matter if you are the starter if every year you are competing for your job with no matter who they bring in
In the NFL commitment = $$$$$$$$$ . Until they make that type of commitment especially at QB you are essentially placeholding . They arent bringing in pieces to compliment you but instead squeezing you into what they are trying to do
Its why they are gonna pay the first rd pick over a 4th rd pick and why they wouldnt keep Matt as Ortons backup and Orton wouldnt even sign to be in that situation .
You are either the guy or you are not .
Its like Fitzpatrick in Buffalo he was starting but until they make a commitment $$ wise there are always questions over whether hes the guy and its his team .
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
You are hitting the nail on the head. They are virtually the same. We need to aim higher and if that fails just go with Cassel. He would be cheaper at least. And if we are going to try and win by ball control, shut down defense, maybe Cassel makes more sense since he is better in the red zone. Charles can move our offense between he 20s.
by Crown Chief on Dec 29, 2011 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
I think we need to aim higher, period.
I’m ok with Cassel starting next season, only if he is doing it while getting a rookie ready to play, like this freakshow on ESPN right now.
Stats....
As of this season:
Palmer – 60%, 8.2 avg, 77.2 rating
Cassel – 59.5%, 6.4 avg, 76.6 rating
Freeman – 62.3%, 6.6 avg, 74.9 rating
According to stats, Palmer is clearly the best QB of those three because of his yards average, and Cassel and Freeman are “basically the same guy.”
Sample size: Each of those three has more than enough attempts this year to constitute a statistically significant sample size. And yes, they are in vastly different situations, which is the point that other people are trying to make to you. But you can’t even out their situations by looking at career stats because then your individual samples become seasons, and no NFL QB has ever played a statistically significant number of seasons.
Sorry about piling on late. I just really wanted to ask you to make sure that you relegate stats as well as Frank Boal and other professional talkers to their appropriate places in your judgment process and trust your own eyes above all. Because if you do that, there is no way you can look at Cassel throw a ball and Orton throw a ball and say that they are “basically the same guy.”
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Huh?
What are you trying to prove with those stats for this season?
That Palmer has played better and that Cassel and Freeman were crap? Yeah, I completely agree with that assessment both with what I’ve seen with my eyes and with the stats.
Although truthfully, none have been great. I would say that all 3 in some sense have had their playing time limited this season.
I certainly can look at beyond just this season to determine which of these QB’s are the best. That is the beauty of what stats are. They are facts, that cannot be swayed by the fact that your eyes tell you that Orton throws a prettier ball. You keep on keeping on, though…I’m going to sleep
Exactly. I'm trying to prove "huh?"
That is, stats are meaningless without context. Or, stats can mean whatever you want them to mean. However you want to phrase it.
Also, proving that “Orton and Cassel are basically the same guy” sounds just as silly as “Freeman and Cassel are basically the same guy.”
Stats ARE facts, but they are like tiny fact droplets in a whole ocean of reality.
You can look beyond this season, but you have to look with your EYES, not just use stats as the end-all be-all.
For the record, I would also love to get a shiny new Griffin or Luck. But I distrust stats and Frank Boal and human consistency enough to allow that Orton has a significant chance to succeed in this situation. Just about as much of a chance, actually, as I’d give almost any rookie QB of actually panning out.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Just a basic difference of opinion
Stats ARE facts, but they are like tiny fact droplets in a whole ocean of reality.
I completely disagree. Stats are always accurate, and as you said, fact. Your opinion and eye test and gut feeling are often wrong, as are mine. The ocean is fact, my friend, always be grounded in fact.
A lot of this comes from my profession and my gambling background, which have taught me things like recency bias.
I want to revisit those stats you gave, b/c it may help me prove my point. You, I’m guessing think Freeman is better than Cassel, right? You think this from remembering last season, and how great he did, right? Well Freeman has been flat out terrible this year. Ask anyone that has watched him (or gambled on or against him). Your opinion, however is likely clouded based on your memory of the hype he got last year and your limited viewing of him this year. The stats are unclouded. They show a QB playing very poorly.
This relates to Orton, b/c AP members are sticking their heels in the ground with an opinion on him with similar, limited information. Namely, how he has ‘looked’ in his two games here.
You keep bringing up Frank Boal. I have no clue what he has said or his opinion, so you’ll have to fill me in.
What else…Luck or Griffin, you say you want them, but then make a comment that Orton has as much of a chance to succeed as them. Well then we still disagree. Over the next 3-4 years, I would much rather hand the franchise to either of them than Orton, and as I will continue to say, quibbling over Orton or Cassel is a waste of time.
My view about stats also comes from my profession.
I’m in engineering. My whole job basically IS numbers, and I have pretty intimate knowledge of the many ways they can mislead, and I also have a pretty decent familiarity with uncertainty factors and marginally significant statistics. Really, the key rule of thumb is that stats and equations NEVER encompass all the variables. If they did, I would be out of a job :)
I don’t necessarily think Freeman is better or worse than Cassel. I’m not making a judgment on that at all. What I think is that they are two very different QBs in terms of strengths and weaknesses. Therefor it is extremely ironic that their stats, the “important” ones that many people lately use to compare Cassel and Orton, are very similar. And that goes to my point of not putting total faith in stats.
I think we agree on Luck/Griffin, just disagree about Orton. I don’t have any numbers, I just think that the odds of a rookie QB succeeding is about the same as the odds of a journeyman QB improving his performance in a new environment. Long term, of course I realize that Luck/Griffin have a lot more upside than Orton. But I think that while one of those guys sits and learns for a couple years, Orton has the potential to take us places.
I would not be upset to trade 2/3 – 3/4 of a draft’s worth of picks for Luck or Griffin. But if we get one of those guys, I’m sure he’ll be better off sitting behind a vet for a year or two, so it’s worth discussing who that vet should be.
Rant Warning:
The Frank Boal thing is a bit of personal frustration. It’s really a generality, so I’m sorry I aimed it at you personally since that was probably completely unfair of me. My general peeve, not at you personally but just in general, is that I get really tired of hearing sensationalist dribble on the radio during my commute, and then seeing the same crap parroted here on AP. It’s doubly irritating – having to see/hear the same talking-head type opinions everywhere I look, plus the confirmation that the talking heads’ tactics work perfectly on so many people. I just hate it when people let other people make their opinions for them, especially when those other people probably don’t even really believe the stuff they’re spouting in the first place. Sorry about the rant. Again, this isn’t aimed at you personally, just something that bugs me.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Start at bottom, work my way up...
Frank Boal…I have no idea what he has said. If it’s sensationalist, that’s fine, I’m sorry, I would suggest turning the channel (or listening to podcasts, which is what I do).
As far as what is said on AP, you are in the overwhelming majority. Just look at the poll above. There is definitely a group think on AP, and I’m the one far outside the group for suggesting Cassel and Orton are similar. Of course, the same group thought Cassel was great this time last year (please look it up, it’s comical how much this place has changed in a year)…but I’ve already made that point (just no one responds to it).
If you simply take the odds of any rookie QB and compare it to a journeyman QB, yeah, I would think the odds would be similar. I also think the odds of the journeyman QB are about the same as sticking with an incumbent QB for more than 3 years. There are a lot of HOF QB’s that struggled in their first 3 seasons and then improved. (No, I don’t think Cassel is a HOF QB).
Cassel and Freeman are very different. That you can be a different style of QB and be equally effective (or ineffective) in different ways, to me, isn’t the least bit surprising.
Do stats encompass all the variables, of course not…or rarely do they. What they do a good job of is sniffing out personal bias. I don’t know what type of engineer you are, but I’m quite sure if you went to your boss and told him…idk, numbers be damned, my eye test says we need to…make that turn sharper, even though the stats say people are going to run off the road at a higher rate, you’d be out of a job as well. Stats, I’m sure, are the basis for most of what you do. That is what I am saying here as well.
I also have said, several times, that I think Orton is probably very slightly better than Cassel…but again, I think most of that opinion comes from my own personal bias. AP has a ton of built in bias against Cassel. I don’t expect it to go anywhere…unless of course he repeats his 2010 season in 2012 and goes to the probowl, then most of the same people that hate him now will be saying ’he’s turned it around’ and is the ‘answer.’
All the channels are the same......
I won’t count them up, but you are far from the only person on AP to say Cassel and Orton are “basically the same guy.” In fact, that’s why I keep putting that in quotes, because I see it all the time. Plus, nearly all of 610AM and 810AM say it every day. So stop feeling special :)
Heh, nobody responds to “that point” because you aren’t addressing it to anybody in particular. It sounds like you assume the lack of response means that it’s valid, but the simpler answer would be that it doesn’t apply to anybody so there is no one to respond to it. Personally, I never thought Cassel was “great,” but he did have an extremely solid season in TD/int ratio. And, I’ve liked Orton’s game since he was in Chicago.
That’s a good point about Cassel only having three years in KC. He hasn’t had the same position coach two years running yet, and he won’t next year, so we might very well owe him a chance. My first thought is that it will come down to money, but Pioli might just surprise us since he sprung for Orton mid-season to begin with.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
You don't need to name them, and I don't 'feel special'
But the poll above says 4% are in camp Cassel.
I looked up articles last week from Dec 26th to 31st 2010 on AP. Yeah, i could go from thread to thread pointing out the people that have changed their opinion, but it would be awful dickish of me, no?
Cassel will be cheaper for the next 2-3 years than Orton, and yes, I agree that is a major reason he will probably stay here and Orton will move on.
No, that wouldn't be dickish, it would be funny.
I hereby rec-bribe you to make a fanpost out of it. I can promise one rec, as long as I’m still on AP to see it happen. I bet there’d be a lot of good conversation in a post like that, too.
My response to you was only about stats proving or not proving that Orton and Cassel are the same. Not whether one is better, or which one we should stay with next year (which are really two separate things themselves). For the record, I’d prefer to start Orton because he has always had better passing skills, but I won’t be heartbroken or surprised if another team outbids us for him. I’d really like to see four QBs on the roster after the draft – Cassel, Orton, Stanzi, and a rookie. I’d guess that Palko might still be there, too, but if we keep him into training camp then I hope it’s as an assistant coach.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I would bet a LARGE sum that Palko will be nowhere near the roster in 2012
I may do a fanpost out of going back and looking at the old posts…but only the 4% above will like it.
69% resign Orton vs. 4% keep Cassel is a landslide election
The AP people have spoken.
Also...
Don’t listen to the local radio, then. I always have more podcasts than I’m able to get to. Tons of good stuff out there no matter what you’re into.
I'm not a pod person.
And I have a sports addiction. I have to listen/watch sports news even if it’s bad. That’s why I really hope we can keep Tebow off ESPN for the first week of playoffs.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I really should get around to
activating my satellite radio that I pay for, I guess. Heh, sports news addiction is the least of my personal foibles.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
ESPN has some quality national radio
There are a ton of good sports pods too.
And yeah, Sat radio is good as well…tons of choices, don’t feel the need to stick to our garbage local radio.
Especially on the drive home.
That's the only sample size we have of the two QBs in similar situations
The point is that Cassel has shown that he can’t win a game that depends on him passing the ball (except against the Colts). Orton may not be able to either, but that’s still undetermined at this point.
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 9:44 PM CST up reply actions
Do you want to know what AP was saying Dec 26-31 2010?
Cassel was ‘the answer.’ Most of the same people destroying him now were praising him last year at this time.
And are you saying we beat GB b/c we ‘depended on him passing the ball?’ We beat GB by scoring 19 points?? No, we beat GB b/c we held the best O in the NFL to 14 points.
I have no love for Orton
I just think he’s a better passer than Cassel. I know they have similar stats, but those stats have been in different situations.
With Cassel at the help, the offense was a three-and-out machine. With Orton taking the snaps, the offense has shown life. I know they’ve stumbled in the redzone, but at least they’ve moved the ball.
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
at the -help- helm
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
I don't mean to be condescending...
But this statement is unfair:
With Cassel at the help, the offense was a three-and-out machine. With Orton taking the snaps, the offense has shown life.
Again, for their career, they have equal YPA. Which is the only judge of a QB ‘moving the ball.’
I think people are confusing Cassel with Palko. Yeah, Cassel wasn’t great, but Palko was the world’s worst QB. Cassel…well, Cassel was basically Orton.
Also, as I said below, Orton has done this with an rejuvenated coaching staff and no Haley. Want to compare Cassel’s stats with Haley not running the offense with Orton’s career #’s?
Well it's pretty clear that we're never going to agree lol
There are just too many variables to account for. You’re absolutely correct that Haley could have had a lot to do with Cassel’s ineptitude. You have to equally consider, however, that Orton’s numbers might be a lot better if he had taken over the most dynamic offense in NFL history like Cassel did in NE or had JC in the backfield forcing teams to stack the box like Cassel had last year in KC.
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 10:16 PM CST up reply actions
Completely valid
Orton’s O surrounding him in ’09 was damn solid.
I do agree with you based on what I've seen with orton so far
But, we also have to consider that it could have been haley making cassel look THAT bad. Not saying I think this is the case, but it COULD be the case.
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
Very possible
Cassel had his two good seasons when Haley wasn’t running his offense.
A possibility
but Haley supposedly wasn’t calling plays this season either, and playcalling didn’t make Cassel lock on to one receiver and get happy feet every time the pocket started to collapse
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, Haley also doesn't always take the trash out when he says he does either
Again, your happy feet and locking on a receiver are not stat based.
They are your opinon of his flaws. I’m not saying I disagree with them, but you will have opinions of Orton’s flaws in a year, trust me.
Like, he slumps his shoulders and whines when things aren’t going well…and he makes too many redzone mistakes. These are complaints of the fans that have watched him in Den and Chi, those guys realize that he is basically Cassel’s equal…someday, AP will too.
Look, we’ve scored 16 ppg in this great period of offensive awakening that everyone is so excited about. Eventually the shine will wear off, and he’ll be critically evaluated, same as Cassel has been.
We need a REAL answer at QB, squabbling over these two are pointless.
Agree on the last bit
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 10:17 PM CST up reply actions
Well that's my biggest concern
We’re going to spend 3 months begging Pioli to keep Orton, and then when/if he does be satisfied.
It’s unacceptable, imo. With a legit QB, this team, when it gets healthy and hopefully spends some money in FA to shore up depth can be a SB contender. Yes, SB, I really believe that.
lol
16 ppg under Orton is almost double what we were putting up under Palko or Cassel
by DaleHammers on Dec 30, 2011 11:29 PM CST up reply actions
yeah but you seem to refuse to put the numbers in context
They have similar stats until you actually put the situations into the equation
Orton started as a 4th rd rookie in a no passing offense
Matts first start came after years in a system with a offensive unit that and system that was setting records a year before and went to the SB.
I dont think Matts a bad QB I just think Ortons experience has made him a much better QB than Matt because of the things hes gone through to get to this point,.
Ortons despite having the same stats apparently has never been “the guy” Matts accomplished what he has being the guy . That leads me to ask the question what could Orton do if a team actually committed to him being the QB.
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 10:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Same stats and the same # of starts
Why hasn’t he been the guy again?
and the teams and situations were totally different
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Yes...agreed
But to act like Orton hasn’t had a chance to prove himself as ‘the guy’’ is bogus.
TWO org’s saw plenty of him, and decided he wasn’t the guy
Again…my point isn’t that Cassel is better, my point is they are basically equal, and we aren’t focusing on the answer, which is a legit upgrade, not either of these two.
If what other organizations thought of players mattered half the league would be unemployed
It seems to me that Orton played well in 2008 and then a young pro bowler became available . What team would pass that up even if they though Orton could be good the marketing for a team whose never had a pro bowl qb would be too much too pass up.
The next organization is the team that gave up the young pro bowler to begin with in a place where the fans booed him before he even played a snap for them .
I dont know how you hold that situation as some type of testament of being given a chance to be the guy because it seems like both of those were basically trouts for the rest of the league .
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
Valid point
But there was no pro-bowler available in Denver when they gave up on him. And if he was playing at a ‘pro bowl level’ then they wouldn’t have gone looking for one in Chi.
Point is, you can’t argue the he’s never been the guy b/c he’s had plenty of chances to be the guy.
Technically, he’s had more than Cassel. He’s had two org’s he could’ve won over if his play warranted it.
Denver never believed in him as far as I know
They made him battle that Simms guy in camp even though he hadnt played in several years due to some medical issue and Orton had put up decent numbers in 2008 and led the Bears to 9 wins
they then traded Marshall and that TE
They then drafted Tebow and he then had to compete against Tebow
he beats out Tebow was leading the league in passing for a good part of the year and then got hurt tried to play through it and then they benched him and went with tebow
The lockout happens
At what part of that is that team committing to Orton in anyway ? They drafted Tebow despite Orton putting up statistically one of the best seasons for a qb in that franchise history
I just dont see anyway he was gonna win over that organization after they traded up and took a qb in the first rd .
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
If he played better they wouldn't have drafted a qb in round 1
He played well, i agree, and he had a lot of talent around him, but he could’ve played well enough where he forced their hand and they wouldn’t have drafted Tebow.
He didn’t, and they did.
They were drafting a QB regardless. They never spoke about him being longterm the picks were what they marketed as the what they got for Cutler
But nothing theyve done should play into our decision about what Orton can or cannot do for us .
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 10:54 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry, but this is bogus
McDaniels went out on a limb to take Tebow round one. It wasn’t the orgs plan to take a 1st round QB there, in fact it was mostly a shock.
Ha! McD drafted Tebow because he wanted to manufacture a quarterback.
It had nothing to do with Orton either way.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Willie, I'm gonna let this go for tonight, good talk
I’m the one in the minority, I realize that.
I just know I’ll be back in the majority in 2 years, and I want a real franchise QB. Take care, have a good one, we’ll talk more later.
resign orton
2 grounding penalties 2 of 9 in the redzone against Oakland. Let’s not forget the int in Oakland’s endzone, yes he fills me with confidence
If Pioli swings and misses on a QB in the draft, years will be wasted.
Couldn’t the same be said about any position? No matter the position, if top 10ish picks don’t pan out the team suffers.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
The damage done at the QB spot is far greater than at RB or C
Just because the QB is much more important to the team than any other position
Do we go fetal and beg for mercy? Or do we pick up that broken piece of pipe laying on the ground and come up swinging? I choose pipe.
Sober (again) since January 10th, 2011.
by nateforchiefs on Dec 29, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
Disagree...
Its still only one pick. Cap issues aside (which KC doesn’t have), whiffing on Ryan Simms hurts just as much as whiffing on Matt Leinart. You still need to use another pick of sign a player to fill the hole
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
It's the time.
QBs usually get a longer window to prove failure than other positions. We might pass up Andrew Luck II by waiting for Landry Jones to pan out.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Oh my god this would suck
Landry.. pardon my french… fucking sucks!
Landry.. pardon my french… fucking sucks!I dont EVER want that spineless careless noodle arm POS on the Chiefs roster even as a 3rd stringer.
Landry.. pardon my french… fucking sucks!I dont EVER want that spineless careless noodle arm POS on the Chiefs roster even as a 3rd stringer.Sorry for being so strong but this guy is just so terrible
by readANDgold58 on Dec 29, 2011 7:33 PM CST up reply actions
Vulcan Mind Meld?
What does AP look like in there?
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 7:46 PM CST up reply actions
I think you can good DT in free agency much easier than you can a good QB.
We were able to get Shaun Smith last year for instance
Do we go fetal and beg for mercy? Or do we pick up that broken piece of pipe laying on the ground and come up swinging? I choose pipe.
Sober (again) since January 10th, 2011.
by nateforchiefs on Dec 29, 2011 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
Touche
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Agreed
But a failed attempt at a QB has more of a long-term affect than say a WR
We're the same team as last year, except incredibly better, and with new players.
Only if the team lets its collective ego get in the way and continue to play a bust longer than needed.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
The concept of sunk costs seems to elude pro sports GMs
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
None of the above.
We drafted Stanzi, who looked the best of all the QB’s in preseason. Let’s see what the hell he can do. I know I feel like a lot of Chief’s fans in saying, I DO NOT want McDaniels here. He reeks of the same brand of cocky douch that Haley stunk of. It’s obvious that in his two stints as a coach outside of the Patriots organization he’s a product of Belichick’s hype.
I would never want him as a HC
But he did make Orton look pretty good in Denver. Can’t judge him on this season in STL, they have nobody outside of Jackson.
We're the same team as last year, except incredibly better, and with new players.
Players make OCs look good. Not so much the other way around, imo.
Orton looked fine in Denver when he had time. He looked flighty and slow when he didn’t. He’s a QB who’ll perform as well as the team around him. Not going to lift them to elite status, but not going to drag ’em down, if they get THEIR jobs done.
would of ≠ would've
Agree, McD would do fine in KC
Give any above average offensive coach Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston and JC and they’ll look brilliant. That said, I’d rather have Norv as OC
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Norv as OC would be ideal.
Everybody knows he is not going to be a HC ever again after this season, let him come here and let him pick his QB, either Cassel, Orton or draft.
Do we go fetal and beg for mercy? Or do we pick up that broken piece of pipe laying on the ground and come up swinging? I choose pipe.
Sober (again) since January 10th, 2011.
by nateforchiefs on Dec 29, 2011 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
Agree to a Point
The official 2012 Head Coach should get to make that call
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
The thing that worries me about McD is that he thought he could make a player look good (Tebow), the opposite of the way Mills says OCs should behave.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
McHoodie overpaid for him in the draft, though.
So he obviously thought he could do something with him that pretty much no one else did.
I believe McD gave Timmy a couple starts
during Tebow’s rookie year.
It is time to anoint the Stanzi. He is The One.
by neiowakcfan on Dec 30, 2011 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
I think you're right. After they went on their losing streak and were out of it.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
ILB and NT were not game-changing problems with the KC D.
DL and LB pretty much did their jobs. Sure, Belcher doesn’t look like a defensive back, but so what?
would of ≠ would've
Yeah, if we keep Romeo, I think another nickel/dime guy would be more valuable than another ILB/NT.
A young McGraw, maybe, or another Bailey/Gilberry.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Mills I was having a epiphany :)
A troika per say of DE, OLB, and ILB. Glenn Dorsey seems to have had a Down year to most eyes, yet Tamba Hali and DJ are Pro bowl selections around him.
While on the other side we have Jackson who had a nice year, Houston as the rookie and Belcher were about middle of the pack in their respective positions.
Any thoughts come to mind?
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
The 3-4 really needs a nose tackle to tie it together.
But we don’t really spend a whole lot of time in the 3-4.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
496 snaps for Gregg
Could we make it tie better together?
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
Oh yeah.
Apparently, you can get a good pure nose tackle with a very low or no draft pick nowadays. If Gregg retires, I think we pick up another one pretty easy as long as his only talent is 0-tech.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
so does a NT get graded by perimeter? circumference?
The bigger the better
More Pie
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
Big and strong.... circumference and force.
More Powe.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
Luck and Griffin will go 1, 2.
Somebody’s gonna jump for RG3. My dearest hope right now is that he decides he loves it at Baylor.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
More likely
- to the Vikings who will trade out. St. Louis or Indy would take Kalil at #2. I hope we trade out pick up some picks and take Sanders OT out of FSU.
If we can't get Luck or RG3, I would be OK with getting out of the first round.
Though I think there will be some guys there we could use.
I thought St. Louis’ tackle problems this year were injury related. If so, they don’t need a top five spot for anything. Somebody will want their pick for Griffin. Several somebodys, actually, which is why QB-needy teams will target the #2 pick.
Indy would be crazy not to take one of the top QBs to let sit behind Manning for a couple/few years.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
It all depends on Mannings health
If he is healthy he can play another 3 years at least at an elite level…you have to give him the players to win now. If they get the #1 pick, they will have to listen to serious offers if Manning is healthy….Luck isn’t going to sit for 3 years….RG3 would, but not Luck.
St. Louis has had some injury problems, but Smith needs to be moved inside and Saffold should be the RT. If Indy is still horrible next year there are 2 very good QBs coming out next year in Luck and Tyler Bray from Tenn. Indy would be able to package picks from a Luck trade to get one of them.
I agree
The way I see it once our team gets healthy we are only about 5 players away from being a legit contender. Unfortunately one of those players is QB, the others though can be had easily out of the first round. Need a 2nd RB as Jones is done and Battle is just kind of a guy, need the smash to Jamaal Charles’ dash. Considering guys like Peyton Hillis and Legarroutte Blount frequently go late/undrafted that 2nd RB shouldn’t cost too much in the draft. Our OL needs some depth and an upgrade at RT, unless RG3 drops to us (which won’t happen) a tackle should be our first pick.
I think if we upgrade our runningbacks other than Charles, fortify our OL, and get healthy…Kyle Orton is good enough to win a super bowl with this team.
by Streetcleaner on Dec 29, 2011 11:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I honestly think Bradford looked better last year
than this year, and Orton imho, didn’t think look any better in Donkland than he did in Chicago. Especially after McDonkhole traded away most of their Offensive weapons. What we need is OL to protect who ever it is we put out at QB.
I think Bradford had to deal with a couple of OT injuries this year.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Actually not a single player on the Rams original starting offensive line is remaining.
We thought we had some injury problems. That team is decimated. 9 CBs on the IR or something like that.
that's why it's completely unfair that we fired Haley.
How can you expect him to win games with key players injured? He was trying to get the right 53, not the right 54.
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 9:30 PM CST up reply actions
Boo.
The injury excuse is getting really ripe. KC got blown out of games under Haley, and became instantly competitive under RAC and those same players are still injured. It’s completely unfair we kept Haley after week two.
It is time to anoint the Stanzi. He is The One.
by neiowakcfan on Dec 30, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
Just a heads up
Landry Jones isn’t making a decision on the draft until jan 15th. I still wouldnt want the chiefs to draft him, but it could change who is available for us if he declares.
"Hey chuck weiss, dont let the door hit ya on the way out!"
by Vancouver Chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 5:51 PM CST reply actions
Try to resign Orton.
First pick on O lineman. We also need a tight end early. Those are 2 positions with low risk if taken early and can pay immediate dividends. We can’t assume Tony will be back at a high level next year and if he is then we will have depth at that position.
Draft offensive linemen
We don’t need linebacker and NT in the first 2 rounds. We need a franchise right tackle and a elite guard. We can have each in the first two rounds. After that a RB to rotate with Charles, and a NT. IF the line protects the quarterback, Orton, or Cassel can play well. The defensive needs are not as great as the Offensive line. We might have another linebacker who can play well in Brandon Siler who was injured.
by Texarkana Chief Fan on Dec 29, 2011 6:06 PM CST reply actions
There's no such thing as a "franchise right tackle." Right tackle is not a franchise position.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I am sure you are wrong :)
There has to be a ROAD grader RT that was franchise at some point
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 6:11 PM CST up reply actions
Bryan Bulaga looks like the best RT this year
Course he has a Franchise QB behind him :(
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
We desperately need a Franchise Punter
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Dec 29, 2011 8:13 PM CST up reply actions
franchise long snapper?
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
when you come to a fork in the road, take it!
1) Orton is better than Cassel
2) when it comes to McHoodie: Just Say No
3) draft a QB if you want, but don’t throw away draft picks for a dream that will take years to develop and even then might not get you where you want to go
4) finish the job of rebuilding the lines, especially the OLine … spend a whole draft on the OLine if you want, but get it done
5) thank you for your attention
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
by upamtn on Dec 29, 2011 6:10 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
I can't believe I'm agreeing with 'almost' everything you are saying lately..
Who are you and what have you done with ups?
Angry Red, 'nuff said.
by chiefsfan62 on Dec 29, 2011 6:29 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Definitely
take this route. We have a good secondary, good LB’s, and good receivers, so build the lines. I wouldn’t mind a TE, RB, and depth thrown in there, but I agree with fortifying the trenches big time. With all of our weapons and an improved line Orton could take us places and is better than Cassel by a mile.
I've been saying this
for two years on this site, and I’ve only been here 6 months…
100% correct. Think of how good our O-line made Priest Holmes, Trent Green, and Larry Johnson look in the early 2000’s. And IMHO (I know it may be sacriligeous to say so), JC is better than Holmes or Johnson. Imagine Charles behind a DOMINANT line. We would continually beat teams like the Packers because their fantastic QB can’t beat you easily when he is on the sidelines for 40 minutes of the game.
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Dec 29, 2011 9:23 PM CST up reply actions
no way
JC is better than Priest. Priest was dominant game in game out and defenses were almost powerless. Wish his career was longer.
I love Priest
But he wasn’t nearly the RB JC is. The current version of Thomas Jones could run for 1200 yards behind Roaf, Waters, Weigmann, Shields, and Tait.
Priest was the a very patient back with great vision and an excellent ability to use blocks. He needed a great line to be great. JC does not.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Wait, wait, wait
They were very different backs, saying Priest wasn’t nearly the RB JC is, I’m sorry at this point, incorrect.
Priest did a lot of things better than JC: blocking, recieving and scoring in the redzone. He also was more durable.
Priest won NFL Offensive Player of the Year and had 3 straight 2000+ Rushing/Receiving seasons (JC has 0), leading the league in two of those years.
Yeah, he had a great line, but disrespecting him by saying he was just a product of the line is unfair.
I LOVE JC and he may end up being a far better back than Priest was, but he’s got one full great season under his belt, lets see him get healthy, stay healthy and do it again before we anoint him as far better than PH.
Agree with most of this, but how was Priest "more durable"?
If you’re talking about the ACL injury, I believe Priest tore an ACL when he was with Baltimore. Beyond this, I think the only durability question surrounding Charles is speculation that he’s a smaller player so he can’t be an every-down back.
I think Priest was as hard a worker as you could find in the NFL, and that’s what set him apart (well that & THAT OL). I doubt JC has that level of work ethic, simply because he has so much more natural talent.
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
JC may never match Priest's stats
But to ignore the line he was running behind and say it was because he was better than JC seems off to me.
However, you’re very correct that they’re very different backs. So comparisons are difficult.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
3 outta 172 votes are for Cassel
…yet I’d bet my left nut he’s the starter opening day 2012.
by craig in calgary on Dec 29, 2011 6:17 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
yep this is no stinking democracy
Pioli is our representative in Chief Nation
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
unfortunately
He will be
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Dec 29, 2011 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
Even in RAC-City?
Say it ain’t so…
If Pioli makes RAC start Cassel, RAC should tell him where to stick his job offer. Orton has looked much better than Cassel with similar personnel.
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Dec 29, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
Not if there is an honest
camp and pre-season QB competition. It would be difficult for Cassel to beat out Stanzi let alone Orton next season.
It is time to anoint the Stanzi. He is The One.
by neiowakcfan on Dec 30, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
I had to do this..........
Providing COLOR commentary for Arrowhead Pride! AKA The Picture Diva!
by LadyChief on Dec 29, 2011 6:40 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
Don't think we'll be in a position to draft RG3
so I re-sign Orton and keep grooming Stanzi, then reevaluate the situation next year.
Re sign Orton
First of all Drop palko! Then resign Orton to a 1 year deal keep cassel and stanzi, if RG3 is there in the 1st round when it is our pick we have to draft him! I think he has more upside then any QB on our roster. The chiefs will be better with our key players back and should win the afc west next year. But I don’t think any current QB on our team would win us a super bowl. So I’m going with my gut and say yes trade up for RG3 I just think this kid would open up our offense so much more then any QB we got. Let all 4 go to campand cut the weakest link or trade if that happens to be cassel. Mark my words put it in stone what ever you have to do RG3 is going to be a star in the NFL!!!!!
by albuquerquechiefsfan on Dec 29, 2011 7:07 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I'd rather franchise Carr or Bowe. They'd be worth more.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
Franchise Orton and pay him upwards of 20 MIL?
No thanks…
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Dec 29, 2011 9:26 PM CST up reply actions
Late to the conversation, but......
If I was Piloi, I would:
1. Keep Cassel because he is serviceable.
2. Sign Orton because he is serviceable.
3. Maybe get lucky and draft a prospect if available.
Rationale:
1. QB controverseys are not bad for coaches and both Orton and Cassel benefit from competition.
2. QB depth around the league is not deep. Why not keep serviceable QBs off other team’s rosters.
3. When’s the last time the Chiefs had a decent backup? Gannon?
Chiefs have the cap room. Keep both and see what happens. Worse comes to worse, they have good trade bait for OL or DL talent.
by GO CHIEFS GO on Dec 29, 2011 7:12 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Orton is hands down better than Cassel. No competition about it.
by Mr.Pibbs on Dec 29, 2011 7:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree
The offense looked better with Orton when he just walked in off the street than it did with Cassel who had years with the team.
by Streetcleaner on Dec 29, 2011 11:53 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Grbac should have been the back-up to Gannon.
gimme some more of that Kool-Aid
by bamachiefs on Dec 29, 2011 11:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This makes sense.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Sign Orton
Trade Cassel
Draft QB in rounds 3-5 (Russel Wilson?)
First two picks OL
Twitter: @RaiderHater86
Downfield INT>Screen pass INT
That is cray-z.
by DrDC on Dec 29, 2011 8:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
this^^
Todd Haley lost 7 of his last 15 games by 20 or more points. It was time for him to go.
by joplin chiefs fan on Dec 29, 2011 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
It's really hard to say what we will do where in the draft.
We may end up with a nice stockpile of picks to trade up in places hopefully (Cassel/Dorsey). I think we already have a couple extra picks coming into the draft already. Does anyone have a list? And also I wouldn’t be apposed to trading back on our #1. I don’t see why we can’t upgrade guard, right tackle, and ILB or NT, and eventually TE, safety, and RB depth (if TJ retires or leaves). Plus we still have free agency to meet some needs. But we need to get our own guys taken care of first (Carr, Bowe, McClain) and especially Orton!
I don’t see how people can say Orton and Cassel are equal. Orton has never had this much talent around him, MC has and he’s shown he can’t be counted on to win games. We have the skill players, just get some Oline, a good coordinator and see what happens. Our D is close to elite anyways, that’s why I’m cool with taking a NT or ILB early because I would really like a defense on calibur with the early 2000 Ravens. We wouldn’t even need an offense but I the offense certainly isn’t empty on talent. Just needs a couple additions and I think we can be real contenders next year.
Plus I think the adversity of this year will only make us better long term.
Ron Paul 2012
by EricBerryYoYouScary on Dec 29, 2011 7:22 PM CST reply actions
A list of needs???
1.) NT (regardless of whether Powe is the answer or not, Gregg is getting old)
2.) OL – RT & C/G (FA or Draft, but get one of each, Weigs is done, or should be)
3a.) S (Eric Berry needs help, backup/depth)
3b.) CB (If they don’t/can’t resign Carr, if not, there are other priorities)
4.) QB (obviously, but we can skip this for one year if we keep Orton and make him the starter)
5.) RB (someone to replace Two Yard Thomas)
6.) TE (love to find a Hernandez, Graham or Gronk)
7.) ILB (Not sure if Siler should be depth or starting, so this could be a low need)
8.) WR (if Bowe leaves, we’ll need a 3rd WR)
Does that pretty much cover it? We can stand to lose either Dorsey or Jackson as trade bait and Gordon/Bailey could replace him. We can always draft another. We could trade Cassel for a mid pick I’m sure. Or keep him as a backup to Orton.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
All this being said...
There won’t be a QB there in the first round. So depending on who we have/lose before the draft, pick BPA by position of need. Stop loading up on crap, get quality depth.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
This works.
I didn’t know how many 3rd round picks we have, how many 5th round picks, etc, etc.
Got to agree mostly with the picks too.
Ron Paul 2012
by EricBerryYoYouScary on Dec 29, 2011 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
LOL
I wasn’t making that a draft order, just a NEED list. But looking at it now, yeah, it’d be a decent order. The first three rounds of the draft should focus on BPA in this list: RT, NT, G/C, ILB, and S/CB. If we lose Carr… CB becomes a huge need. Arenas isn’t the answer… Brown may be a career special teamer.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
Losing Carr...
Don’t say such things
Ron Paul 2012
by EricBerryYoYouScary on Dec 29, 2011 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
Stupider things have happened in KC.
They’ll franchise him before they’ll franchise Bowe. I think they’ll sign both though.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
And honestly... if they franchise Carr....
And someone offers at least a 1st and a 2nd this year… Pioli will make that deal. Bet on it.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
2 picks?
For a corner? Did the Raiders even get that for Asomugha? By the way, have I mentioned how happy I am that he is now tormenting the wideouts for Dallas, the Giants, and the Redskins (what wideouts) rather than the AFC West?
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Dec 29, 2011 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
I really want a NT too
but mainly because I’ve been wanting to give a player the nickname “Iron Chef” for quite some time.
by Streetcleaner on Dec 29, 2011 11:55 PM CST up reply actions
Agree with all that except "we can always draft another" in reference to the DEs.
The big guys on the D line might take longer to develop than any other position besides QB. Even if we use our top pick to draft a DE, even if Jackson/Dorsey is as ordinary as many people think, a rookie to replace either of them would be a significant downgrade for at least the next two years.
I also might partly disagree with your #4. I’d much rather have Cassel starting, or hell, even Stanzi, than reach on the wrong QB in round 1. I think that’s the one position that you only pick if you honestly like the guy, NEVER because of need.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I am all in on improving the offense
I could care less if we draft one defensive player right now. Our defense is not perfect, but it could get us where we want to be. Considering how Green Bay, New England, and New Orleans have played on defense, it should be a sign of which way this league is headed. Yes, San Fran, Detroit, Pitt, and Balt have very good defenses. But they lack the offensive firepower (doesnt apply to Pitt when they are healthy) to win it all.
If we have a chance to put together a top notch offense, now is the time. Whatever it takes within reason must be applied to this. Can Kyle Orton get it done with a better OL, Charles and our receiving corps (maybe even one more here)? I believe so.
Nonetheless, it will be an interesting offseason.
I feel like we need to add 2 or 3 pieces to make our Defense elite. I say we do that right away. Start building on the offense after that point in time.
Twitter: @RaiderHater86
Cmon Man
A perfect Defense is never going to happen. We score 13 points per game we need to fix the Offense
IF we were to get RGIII we should get his security blanket WR/slot in the 2nd round.
Hot Damn
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
Absolutely
I’m becoming obsessed with the idea of RG3…the issue is what you’d have to give up to slide above CLE who would take him at 5 (provided he’s even there). I think the kid is the perfect blend of drop back passer with the ability to extend drives with his feet. I feel like he’s perfect in a run 1st, ball control offense.
The deal was sealed for me when I heard him talk…he BLEEDS Baylor football and throws constant praise toward his coach and teammates…he didn’t mention his own talent once in his Heismann speech. He is a poster of humility.
The trouble is, I think we could offer everything we possibly can and we'd still get outbid.
Lots of QB needy teams with higher draft picks to trade.
But yeah, picking him up on draft day would be pure Chiefsgasm.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
My only question is
do you still need an elite defense to win in the NFL? Our D looks pretty good now and that’s without one of the best safeties in football.
You could def be right. I don’t envy the decision makers. The league is changing and we cannot strike out while our core is in their prime.
That’s my main concern. I don’t want to miss out on our defensive prime. It’s a tough call.
Twitter: @RaiderHater86
I think Pioli's main goal is to create a team that has no window.
Or rather, a team that has a constantly open window. Which would be a hole, I guess. Hell, you know what I mean.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Write a Check to Steve_Chiefs
its yours
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 7:55 PM CST up reply actions
There are only 5 options for QB next season
Or at least there should be. Manning, Luck, RG3, Cassel with Stanzi coming in if he fails. We have to go big or go home. The first thing the Chiefs need to do is re-sign Carr, overpay if you have to. Then, they can franchise Bowe and use him possibly as a trade chip to get Luck or Griffen. Unless, Manning gets outright released then maybe we sign him, go for it these next 2 or 3 seasons. Only way a Lombardi Trophey is coming to the Chiefs is if we get an elite QB. If all else fails, keep a cheap Cassel and hope to god Stanzi is the next Brady.
No I won't...
Orton is not the answer. He is not horrible, but he is not capable of playing championship style football. Signing him would be settling, playing it safe, endorsing mediocre QB play. Playing it safe never works out in the NFL. Its ones that know when to take calculated risk. If I’m the GM of the Chiefs, I’m doing everyhing in my power to get one of the 3 possibly elite QBs available this offseason. Signing Orton only gets in the way of that.
and Cassel isn't mediocre
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Dec 29, 2011 8:01 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, he really is the definition of average.
Average = mediocre.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
I'm okay with signing Orton as our starter if....
THEY ADDRESS EVERY OTHER NEED WE HAVE. That’s my one stipulation. If we can improve the OL, figure out the NT, ILB and secondary depth/starters, we can be set. Pick up an RB and a TE for offensive depth.
Mark my words: Orton CAN win with that much talent around him. Cassel COULD, but won’t. And I’m not sure I’d trust a rook. And I’m not trading up for a rookie QB. I don’t care if his name actually is Jesus Christ. It ain’t happening.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
by Falcon58 on Dec 29, 2011 8:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t care if his name actually is Jesus Christ. It ain’t happening.
Too late…the Donks already drafted him….
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Dec 29, 2011 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
Not if those 3 elite guys are not available.
I agree with you, I just don’t want to see any more Cassel. And quite frankly, I would not be surprised if he is the starter next year. We are going to see who the real Pioli is during this off season and draft.
Reply success. You did reply to Crown Chief.
Welcome to the real world, Alexandria. Future Chiefs' ____________!
by Falcon58 on Dec 29, 2011 8:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How do you know hes not capable of playing championship style football ?
by Willie Beamon on Dec 29, 2011 8:45 PM CST up reply actions
Name me an NFL journeyman who all of a sudden became an elite QB somewhere. I can’t do it on the top of my head. Remember the criteria is being elite. There have been backups who have emerged or someone like Warren Moon coming from the CFL, but not a journey man. There is a reason no team has given him that vote of confidence as their guy.
by Crown Chief on Dec 29, 2011 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
Rich Gannon
Is my quick off the top of my head answer.
But your point should be, that he and Cassel have an equal chance of playing ‘championship style football’ and that chance is minimal.
Exactly
I personally believe all of the Luck hype. I’ve watched him play a lot. I’m praying Indy wins against the Jags. I think it is very possible. People may think I’m crazy, but I would go as far as trading our 2012 & 2013 1st, 2012 2nd, 2012 & 2013 4th, 2012 7th, and a franchised D Bowe to get Luck. Shefter said 3 1st and two 2nds would be the cost. I think Bowe makes up for the 2nd and a chunk of the 3rd 1st. Just an estimate that the two 4ths and 7th would put us over the top. And then we can trade Cassel and recover a 4th like what Washington fetched for Campbell.
by Crown Chief on Dec 29, 2011 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
I believe in RG3 as well, and think he could be had far cheaper
I’d rather do that, myself, just b/c it would cost far less.
Maybe just 2 1st’s. Or 2 1sts and a 3rd next year or something…
I like Griffen too
That is what we should do if Indy loses and we miss out on Manning in FA if he becomes available. But, if Washington offers an ungodly package for Griffen I would pull out. As good as Griffen is he would be a much bigger risk than Luck IMO. I think there is going to be a lot of opportunity to improve this team in FA so I’m ok with trading away the farm, although that 2012 2nd and 2013 1st hurt big time. But, if Andrew Luck becomes the next Elway it will be worth that in spades.
by Crown Chief on Dec 29, 2011 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
I saw the segment where Shefter said that, and it looked to me like he was just making up a hyperbolic example off the top of his head to make a point.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
You could be right...
I thought it was quite pricey as well. But, we are talking about a potential starting franchise QB that could be had for a 25 million dollar contract. I got to think Cleveland would offer their two 1st, next years 1st, and possibly their 2nd this year and next. I was hoping Bowe could bridge that offer, but it is pure speculation on my part. It just depends on how much teams are willing to bid, and I’m thinking a lot.
by Crown Chief on Dec 30, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
I think teams need to use their own roster situations to figure out how much to bid.
How many players are retiring/leaving in the next couple of years, and how many draft picks do you need to fill their roster spots. One typical draft equals about 12% of a team’s roster, so equate that to how many guys you expect to lose.
We’ve needed our high picks the last few years to fill starters’ spots, but it’s beginning to look like our traditional high-pick positions are getting fairly solid – pass rusher, LT, CB, DE/DT. Of course the position that’s missing from my high-pick list is QB :) So, we may still need a good quantity of picks for depth and support and development, but we might have the advantage of not really needing that many HIGH picks.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I'd do that in a heartbeat
But that’s a terrible deal for St. Louis. We’ll probably be drafting around #15 this season, and presumably in the 20s next season. St. Louis can do much better than that dealing with a team like Washington, Miami or Cleveland.
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
Seriously???
You think Cassel played better than Orton this year? I was AT the first game of the year, against the Buffalo Bills. I have never been more disappointed in my life.
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Dec 29, 2011 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
I really don’t care if Orton is just a little better. I don’t care about comparing him to Cassel. I don’t want either. But, if I’m going for the young QBs or Peyton Manning then Orton does not make sense to sign. I’m trying to take a giant leap with the only consequence if it fails being a small step back.
by Crown Chief on Dec 29, 2011 10:29 PM CST up reply actions
The Ravens won the SuperBowl with Trent Dilfer, and Orton is way better than Dilfer.
gimme some more of that Kool-Aid
That was in 2000
Times are a chainging. Due to the new rules its almost impossible to have an ELITE defense. I think there will still be really good defenses, but not the historicaly, legendary types that carry entire teams to championships like the Ravens did thanks to the new rules.
by Crown Chief on Dec 30, 2011 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
Didn't SF just set a record for consecutive game without allowing a rushing TD?
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Including the playoffs, Balt gave up 9.55 ppg
SF is currently giving up 13.5.
Since I know you like stats now, I know you realize that’s a huge difference.
And the game has mostly changed in the way passing penalties are called/enforced. Run D hasn’t changed too much…other than less teams rely on Run O now.
Yeah, I was keeping all that in mind. Just making converstation.
But then again…when I look at the stats for team defense, SF and Baltimore are 1 and 3 right now. They are both playoff caliber teams, and they’ve done that with very iffy QB play.
Everybody assumes that Rodgers is going to just smash the playoffs, but I wouldn’t be a bit surprised to see SF and Alex Smith put one over on him.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I would be surprised if Alex Smith is able to beat
Either NO or GB in the playoffs.
It’s possible, but I think highly unlikely he’ll be able to keep up with the scoring needed.
And he’ll probably have to beat both. REALLY unlikely, imo.
IMO we are close to a nightmare scenario. Carr and Bowe without contracts, and only one tag.
sigh.
Pay Brandon Carr/Romeo
Team Colquitt
Good thing we have all that $$ to spend
Ron Paul 2012
by EricBerryYoYouScary on Dec 29, 2011 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
IMHO
Tag Carr. Bowe has been hot and cold this year. He made some great catches against the Raiders, and he also failed to fight through once or twice when the ball was underthrown and it got intercepted.
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Dec 29, 2011 9:39 PM CST up reply actions
Or do you sign him now after a “down year”. That may help Pioli’s bargaining position.
Twitter: @RaiderHater86
by ExRoyalsFan on Dec 29, 2011 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
Or franchise Carr & give Bowe the transitional tag
Carr deserves some extra pay for his play the last couple years anyway. Giving Bowe the transition tag will allow him to test the market, then give KC the right to match any offer he receives.
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
Rg3
I hope u guys are watching espn!!
by albuquerquechiefsfan on Dec 29, 2011 8:14 PM CST via mobile reply actions
what they saying
hes great the last key to our superbowl
by kcchiefs2782 on Dec 29, 2011 8:23 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
More traditional style QB
More of a pocket passer, better arm…
by AnkenyChiefsFan on Dec 29, 2011 9:40 PM CST up reply actions
Fewer injuries...
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
NFL body
RGIII is skinny.
It is time to anoint the Stanzi. He is The One.
by neiowakcfan on Dec 30, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
Listed at 6'2", 220lbs. He's been trying to gain weight.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I hope romeo is watching
copy that move.
Cassel/orton pitch to charles, pitch to breaston
everything looks great there.
Minus the Cassel/Orton part.
by KCCHIEFSALOT on Dec 29, 2011 8:33 PM CST up reply actions
Question is ......
How much of Cassels problem began and ended with Haley -I am not a fan of Cassel and would like to see an upgrade if we can get one, maybe Orton is that upgrade until we can find someone who is better, Luck and Griffin will be gone unless they fall in the draft for some reason and then it would be unlikely for us to take them. I guess the same thing could be said about Stanzi, maybe Haley was a negative influence there as well
just some random thoughts
from the player's comment, it look like haley was more into conditioning rather than prep or practice
being fit is one thing, playing to win is another
I wonder, what's more important
an OL or a QB?
We can have a good OL but we can’t get down the field
but we can have a good QB with no protection
great posts
I’m on the Orton bandwagon, too, even with the picks (which definitely cost us a game that shouldn’t have even been close). I’m excited to see what he can do with a full offseason with our WRs (I’m thinking we’re going to let Bowe go… still way too inconsistent). Trade or keep Cassel as a backup, which is what he always should have been. No QBs will be available with our pick so I agree go RT (Pioli’s biggest brain fart from last year but yay we got Gabe Miller useless pick) and C/G, so we can have a sick line for JC when he comes back. Drafting a roadgrader RB that can get first downs in short yardage should also be a priority because Jones is dinosaur toast and Battle’s not that great (poor vision and slow to the hole).
Nobody to draft
Unless we reach and with the holes we got we should not be reaching or giving up picks for 1 coin toss of a player. And the one we drafted last year we haven’t even found out about still. Please for the love of Tebow, just re-sign Orton, keep Stanzi and have Cassel FINALLY have to beat someone out. Weather we get the Patriots OC or McDaniels as OC, BEEF UP THE LINES!! Add depth an extra wepon and BAM top 10 offense with this squad next year, book it!
The plan
Sign Carl Nicks and Soliai in free agency. If we can somehow get Griffin in the first round, obviously do it, if the price of moving up to get him isn’t too high.
If we can’t get him, go big OT in the first, then go with the BPA after that. If we do get him, we still need a big OT with our next pick.
And we need to add a safety who can challenge Lewis, with the loser of that battle being our safety depth.
Seriously, if we could sign Nicks and Soliai, we would be close to being where we need to be before drafting anyone. Sign them, somehow land Griffin and get a OT who can start as a rookie, and we will be ready to play with anyone next year and every year going forward.
If we don’t get Griffin, then QB is the issue, but if we made those other signings, even Cassel/Stanzi gives us enough to win the AFC West and contend for the conference title next year, and a good chance to do that every year going forward, as we look for the QBOTF and as we find out if Stanzi will be an upgrade or not.
We are not that far away people. I am NOT a little Mary Sunshine everything-must-be-given-a-positive-spin type of person at all, I try to be a realist. But we are not that far away.
by Offense of the 70s on Dec 29, 2011 9:53 PM CST reply actions
RG3 is getting beat by Washington
For constantly playing Palko, Haley needs to be fired
by ArrowheadHunter on Dec 29, 2011 9:54 PM CST reply actions
Good.
I hope he looks horrible and throws five picks, and falls to us. He’s a good QB no matter what he does in this one game.
by Offense of the 70s on Dec 29, 2011 9:55 PM CST up reply actions
He is still playing well
Washington is just a ill better in the first half. 35 to 24 Washington over Baylor . 2nd half coming up
For constantly playing Palko, Haley needs to be fired
by ArrowheadHunter on Dec 29, 2011 9:57 PM CST up reply actions
maybe we go...
Trent Richardson ,then a nt/dt, a o lineman then qb kellen Moore everyone forgetting about him
by kcchiefs2782 on Dec 29, 2011 10:13 PM CST via Android app reply actions
Resign Orton, Trade Cassel, Give Palko back to Hollywood, and Draft RG3
IF:
We resign Kyle Orton and draft Robert Griffin III, and then Kyle Orton gets beat out by RG3,
THEN:
Kyle Orton will become an unappreciative, angry atheist!!!!!!!!
*Follow me @ChiefsatWar (Twitter)
Clark Hunt & Pioli, get some KING KONG BALLS and move up to draft a QB in the 1st RD of the 2012 NFL Draft: RG3 or Luck.
Fuck Trent Richardson!
I’m tired of hearing about his name in the 1st round for the Chiefs! With the needs this team has he is an extreme luxury pick. Securing the O line being the main one! I’m my opinion drafting a RB in the 1st is a waste of a pick. You gonna get 4 to 5 good years and then have a broken player and thats fine when your a team with good depth, but we are not and still yet need starters. This pick has to be someone that can play 10 years in the league. My pick is Jonathon Martin!
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