Observations Of The Best Offensive Lines In 2011
I want to take a look at the best passing offensive lines and figure out who the best teams are and what the average draft position is for each team. This comparison will come from starting players to depth in an attempt to break down how some of the best players in the game are added to the best offensive lines. In this research I will break down the statistics of each of these teams and the positions as a whole to help us better understand how a line can be put together.
So this isn't a, 'Hey lets grab the best guy out there' post, but a different strategy by looking at how and where elite teams have addressed their needs.
The weakness in this study will be that I’m only doing this for this year (as it will take plenty of time to put just one year together. Maybe if I decide to do this year after year, or go backwards to study, this will become a stronger study). There are other variables such as elite quarterbacks that will skew statistics. For this reason I am taking only the top 10 passing offenses. I would like us to have the best of every aspect of the game I think a top 10 passing offense would be a good next step. Taking the top 10 passing offenses also helps equalize variability by having an elite QB.
The offensive lines that I broke down are the Patriots, Saints, Packers, Giants, Lions, Chargers, Cowboys, Steelers, Eagles, and Falcons. (Best is subjective terminology, but I went with the consistent best stats in passing categories). I chose this route because if the big guys are doing their job up front then the other members on the team have the best chance of creating these stats (again subjective).
There were four main categories that I wanted to observe to identify how these teams built their respective offensive lines. The first two categories go hand in hand -- round and draft spot. This will help identify when these players were drafted. The draft number is used to help pinpoint the position in the round that would be best to develop a player at a specific position. I used the category ‘Drafted by’ to help determine whether the players are developed in house, or if they were free agents. The numbers closest to one mean they were more consistently free agents. The numbers closer to 0 mean they were more consistently developed in house. The last category is the amount of NFL experience. I suspect that the amount of experience that is on the line will help tell a story about the other statistics.
So let us begin:
First let us look at the teams as a whole:
| Team | Round | Draft # | Drafted by: | Experience |
| Saints | 4.75 | 145.5 | 0.25 | 5.375 |
| Patriots | 4.625 | 139.125 | 0.375 | 6.125 |
| Packers | 3.5 | 119.8333 | 0 | 4 |
| Eagles | 4.111111 | 152 | 0.222222 | 4.888889 |
| Giants | 3.666667 | 99.66667 | 0.555556 | 6.222222 |
| Lions | 3.125 | 95.25 | 0.5 | 6.5 |
| Chargers | 4.5 | 154.7 | 0.1 | 5.2 |
| Cowboys | 5.222222 | 160.1111 | 0.333333 | 4.666667 |
| Steelers | 4.777778 | 146.1111 | 0.222222 | 3.888889 |
| Falcons | 4.888889 | 148.2222 | 0.222222 | 5.888889 |
| AVG | 4.316667 | 136.0519 | 0.278056 | 5.275556 |
What we find out by this is teams like the Cowboys get their offensive linemen later in the draft. These numbers are most likely skewed as a couple of their linemen this year are rookies, and undrafted free agents (UDFA’s were labeled with as an 8th round pick, and +1 from the Mr. Irrelevant pick). The Cowboys also have a relatively low score which shows most of the players are developed in house (any higher and I would consider this as an even mixture of free agents and home talent .33-.66). If I apply the standard deviation from these stats it also tells me that the Saints, Patriots, Steelers and Falcons wait later in the draft for their offensive lines. While, the Packers, Lions, and Giants acquire their offensive linemen earlier in the draft.
The Giants and the Lions are teams that have drafted offensive linemen relatively low in the draft. The linemen on these teams also have a relatively even mixture of players drafted and free agents. The experience on these teams is also relatively high. The only other team that has an even mixture of draftees and free agents is the Patriots. The experience level of the Patriots is also pretty high for this list. This suggests that if you are going to get free agents that they have a little over 6 years of experience.
The Packers have gone a different route of trying to develop all of their offensive linemen in house. In doing so the Packers invested plenty of stock in draftees early in the draft.
So how do the Chiefs matchup?
--------------------------(-Round/-- Draft #/-- Drafted/-- Experience)------------------------------------------
|
Chiefs |
5.5 |
165.375 |
0.125 |
4.625 |
The Chiefs average offensive line is usually found after these teams in the draft, but by using standard deviation this is by an insignificant amount. We are a team that likes to develop our offensive line in house. I did count Lilja as he started off with us… The overall experience level is right near the middle on the lower side. This suggests to me with some tweaking and given more time together that this team could easily be in the top ten offensive lines of 2012.
In order to find out where we might go to tweak the line lets explore how we compare to these teams at different positions on the line.
Lets start with right tackle:
---------------------------------(-Round/---- Draft #/---- Drafted/---- Experience)------------------------------------------
|
RT |
AVG |
2.9 |
84.1 |
0.1 |
4.1 |
|
Max |
8 |
256 |
1 |
11 |
|
|
Min |
1 |
9 |
0 |
1 |
|
|
STD |
2.424413 |
82.42633 |
0.316228 |
3.381321 |
Taking the standard deviation from the average position we find out that taking a right tackle might not be the best idea in the first round. Yet 40% of the best offensive lines that I’m looking at have a first round right tackle. If we look at the draft # we find out that a first round right tackle could possibly be within reason to build an elite offensive line starting at this position. The standard deviation suggests that taking a right tackle with the number 3 position might be within reason. More often than not there is going to be a better player that presents itself at the number 3 position.
Tyron Smith at number 9 falls under this category and could be affecting the stats as he will probably flip to the left tackle. The average of the picks in the first round is 16, and there are 2 picks at number 17. So if there was a way that we were able to pick a tackle at 16-17 position by dropping back in the draft I would pull the trigger. That is if we needed to upgrade our right tackle.
Barry Richardson is in his fourth year and sits right at that sweet spot for these offensive lines. Using standard deviation we find that he slightly falls out of range of the draft number. Richardson’s years of experience should tell us by now if he is the guy at right tackle. These stats and our own eyes tell us that the right tackle must be upgraded this offseason. (Doing a quick peep… Richardson does fall into a good backup according to the backup role stats).
Now on to the right guards
---------------------------------(-Round/---- Draft #/---- Drafted/---- Experience)------------------------------------------
|
RG |
AVG |
4.4 |
133.5 |
0.4 |
5.9 |
|
Max |
8 |
257 |
1 |
14 |
|
|
Min |
1 |
23 |
0 |
1 |
|
|
STD |
2.458545 |
89.40575 |
0.516398 |
4.175324 |
Using standard deviation we find that it is unnecessary to draft a right guard before the 12th pick in the 2nd round. Yet we also find that we should not wait until late in the 6th round. There are outliers like Brian Waters, and Ramon Foster that were undrafted. Watkins is another that is an outlier in that he was drafted in the first.
Pioli drafted Jon Asamoah in the 3rd round in 2010. Going by these stats this was the perfect place to draft a right guard. There were no backup positions to look up for right guard in particular. I will discus options later with left guard and/or interior line breakdowns.
Now for the centers
---------------------------------(-Round/---- Draft #/---- Drafted/---- Experience)------------------------------------------
|
C |
AVG |
4.4 |
151.6 |
0.2 |
6 |
|
Max |
8 |
256 |
1 |
13 |
|
|
Min |
1 |
18 |
0 |
1 |
|
|
STD |
2.91357 |
100.0724 |
0.421637 |
4.163332 |
Again I’m using standard deviation to tell me where the starting point and end points to start drafting a new center. Pouncey is the only center that was taken in the 1st round on this list. Using standard deviation one would believe that taking a center that early is unnecessary. Taking a center in the 2nd round is where we would get the better value.
Ideally if we had a pick in the 19th range of the 2nd round (pick 51), we would be doing well. Lucky for us Hudson falls right at that cutoff. This shows that Pioli has once again done a good job of attempting to build the offensive line through the draft. The veteran Weigmann falls outside of every category necessary to build an elite offensive line. He has been a great mentor for Hudson, but his time is up.
Now to left guards
---------------------------------(-Round/---- Draft #/---- Drafted/---- Experience)------------------------------------------
|
LG |
AVG |
4.3 |
133 |
0.3 |
6.3 |
|
Max |
8 |
263 |
1 |
9 |
|
|
Min |
1 |
32 |
0 |
3 |
|
|
STD |
2.311805 |
79.28009 |
0.483046 |
2.451757 |
The left guard position as you can see has similar stats as the right guard. When comparing the stats and level of play that Lilja has displayed this season we should consider drafting another guard/center in the draft. We might find out that Lilja has been playing with an injury this season which would explain his decrease in play. Weigman has play has drastically decreased this year so maybe this has effected the weaknesses in Lilja’s play. Regardless, with Weigman leaving we are going to need to find someone to fill the hole on the interior of the line.
Finially the Left Tackle
---------------------------------(-Round/---- Draft #/---- Drafted/---- Experience)------------------------------------------
|
LT |
AVG |
4 |
117 |
0.3 |
6.8 |
|
Max |
8 |
256 |
1 |
11 |
|
|
Min |
1 |
18 |
0 |
3 |
|
|
STD |
2.325996 |
82.1 |
0.471495 |
2.823528 |
We already have a venture interest in Brandon Albert... What is interesting is that many of these elite offenses are finding diamonds in the rough during the later rounds. 60 percent found a franchise Left Tackle that was drafted at or after the 4th round. The only reason I make this point is because of the notion that is stated often "In order to have an elite offensive line you must have an elite left tackle" and "In order to have an elite left tackle one must draft one in the first round".
This post is getting to long for my liking so I will omit the interior line, and save it for another post. If this post is enjoyed and brings good discussion I'll do one that is much like it only on the best run offensive lines. (I can do a positional breakdown for overall and starting vs backup if others are interested).
So I have shown these stats… I know of other things to discuss with these stats but given the length of the posts left them out. Feel free to state the obvious. How do you believe that we should proceed? What do you like, and what would you like to see in the future?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Great stuff
Just more reasoning for us to move up and take a QB in the 1st round.
Free Hudson Hawk, Leonard Peltier... or whomever will get the Chiefs a Super Bowl win.
I believe that if we must have Hudson start next season that he needs to start at Center and keep Lilja at guard. Then bring in a free agent Center with around 6+ years experience, that can push Hudson. If Lilja just can’t cut it… have Hudson replace him at the beginning of the season and have the FA Center take over for the season (or hope that there is a Vet that can replace Lilja). The main reason why I say get a Veteran Center or Guard is because the experience of our line drops dramatically if Weigman and Lilja are replaced by rookies. I would also be interested in drafting another Guard/Center right around the 4th round.
What I did see by this is that Richardson has been given his chance to shine. While if we were to get a bright shiny new right tackle in the first round (pick 10ish); we would be hearing boos about how huge of a reach that it was… This would give us a little bit of flexibility though if we went down that route. In 2012 we prime a guy to play tackle at the NFL level. 2013 Brandon Albert’s contract would be up… yet you have a cheaper contract of a guy that could be ready to take over the LT position the following year. Albert could move on to another team… or sign with us. If he resigns we have bookend tackles and not many holes in our offensive line.
Go Chiefs!!!!
reminder you only have one year of data
I wouldn’t draw that many conclusions on that :)
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 28, 2011 7:40 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly...
Thanks for reading.
Go Chiefs!!!!
holy wow, raven! futtin' AWESOME stuff!
so, how’d the copy/past from excel go? (is that what you used?)
this is most excellent, but I’m thinking this: you did all this with, in your own words, passing teams … I think the Chiefs are (and will be) better off as a run-first team (Martyball if you will) but then, you have to start someplace for stats … well done, well done
as for some things the team might/should/needs to do moving forward, I’m going to redirect you (and others) to Steve’s brand new post which is right here
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Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Thanks...
The copy paste worked ok… Only problem was I had to clean up the garbage left from excel on the page.
I think that we are already a top ten run team, this was why I decided to focus on the pass portion first as a start. Many of these same teams that have a top pass ranking also have a high running ranking. I think we are close to being there with them.
Steves post is awesome… Especially coming out right after mine. Gives an intersestin perspective on the draft.
Go Chiefs!!!!
I'm so pleased to see these TWO great posts back-to-back ... some REAL football stuff, real GOOD stuff
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Awesome Post
I really apreciate the breakdowns as the stats are hard to follow :)
How many of those RT 1st rounders are failed LT picks?
and please if you checked how many of those elite guards had Center capabiliteis also?
Questions! Questions! (you go, Steve!)

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Great questions...
I believe 3 of the RT were expected to start at LT. Two of which are on the Packers team if I recall the data correctly.
I really didn’t look at the interchangeability between guard and center… Though that was what I was wanting to tackle with the interior of the line break down. Maybe I’ll do that one next… As a follow up.
Go Chiefs!!!!
Yeah. And I'm OK with drafting RT fairly high, but some of these recent picks were LT-only material,
with the hope of developing. Bulaga was thought of as instant starting RT. Solder was (and is) thought to have great feet, but with questions about NFL-caliber beef. And judging by his ’tweener role in his rookie year, this seems to have turned out that way.
Seems like the better candidates have the better feet, and the better teams aren’t fooled by beef, alone, although maybe the Jets got fooled by the house-sized Ducasse, whose ceiling might be OG.
would of ≠ would've
WIth the new pay scale for the draft
I think OT’s who are projected to be only RT’s in the NFL with start to rise in the draft. Dont take that the wrong way, a Starting LT caliber player will always be drafted over a RT but for a team that has a good/great LT and needs a RT wont hesitate to take one with a 10-15 range pick.
Mia, KC, Cle all are in a positon where they could take a RT if a QB is not avaliable.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
I think that this trend might occur too... in the following drafts.
Sometimes you might get a left tackle out of the deal in the end…. otherwise you have a solid right tackle.
Go Chiefs!!!!
I agree
but it really depends on what you want your RT to be. There are some guys who come out as a LT that have great feets, quicks hands and good feel for the game. You take that guy and have him try to drive block a LDE and he is going to get killed. This is ok if you are like NE or Indy and dont rely on the run game much. Some guys just dont have that power punch, low center to drive block etc…
-
This is why I like Martin and Reiff. They both look very natural run blocking. A guy like Adams from OSU grades out as a RT only because he has had some issues with speed rushers in college.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
Aggies, it figures ;-)
have great feets
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Oops
I should really proof them before I hit post :)
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
heh, just some fun ribbing, my friend ... it's all good
and after all, you have the distinct advantage of NOT being a Jaychiciken ;-)
Hurray Hurrah Huzzoo Mizzou
Geaux Tigers!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
That's what'd scare me away from Adams.
Issues with speed rushers in college is a recipe for Sackintosh or Ducasse (a later version?). Fine if you can find the guy an eventual home at G (I wondered why they didn’t do that with Sackintosh).
And the Solder types with great feet, but sucky in run blocking might be the wave of the present, with teams going with tackle-eligible stuff and occasionally throwing the rock to these oversized TEs, who maybe let you get away with Ducasse-types at RT!
would of ≠ would've
How does a pure pass blocker at LT let you get away with bad pass blocking at RT?
Or were you saying something else?
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I think you DO want pass-blocking at RT, which is why we're having this whole conversation.
But it can be very difficult, and yes, you’re seeing teams admit defeat and go tackle-eligible. Atlanta, New England, even Oakland, have stuck the extra big body out there, because they figure they can exploit the mismatches down field, even outnumbered in the pattern, if they PROTECT.
Defenses like KC’s still haven’t come up with adequate answers to the jumbo up front plus mismatches down the field. Protect the QB long enough for the receivers (WR, TE, RB) to exploit the lack of speed on the back end of patchwork cover-2 secondaries.
would of ≠ would've
I still just think a lot of our problems are pressure in the middle.
I think a competent QB can deal with pressure if it comes from the same place every time, that being around the outside.
I remember the Seahawks game last year when Barry filled in at LT, and it seemed like Cassel had to dodge Clemons every single play. The thing is, Cassel was expecting Clemons to be in his face every single play from the very start, so he just side-stepped him without taking his eyes off the field and burned that defense.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I've had similar impressions in games, also.
The OT is at least forcing the edge rusher to take a wide detour. If you hold up in the middle, there’s a (gasp) pocket for the QB to step up into.
Still, I’ve seen B-Rich just flat-out BEAT off the snap by BIG men. But with a step or two to see it coming, he was pretty successful against Clay Matthews. My impression of B-Rich is he’s pretty good when he knows where his help is. Half of the times I’ve seen problems from his side of the pass pro’, I noticed his help not knowing what they were doing, in particular the TEs (in H-Back formation) and Dexter McCluster (whose blocking sucks because he doesn’t know what he’s doing more than because the little squirt can’t jack people up).
would of ≠ would've
That's interesting. I haven't actually keyed on watching just Richardson much, except for that Seattle game.
I guess that means I’m biased toward left tackle play, too. Or more likely, I watch Albert so I can refute AP Albert haters.
One technique I see quite a bit any more against speed rushers is the tackle backs up a couple steps and shades to the inside, then just dives at the rusher’s feet if he goes around the edge. That irritates the hell out of me because I’m a defense fan, and it’s effective. But the OT would have to know that the pass is coming out quick for that to work.
I bet nobody ever seriously tried to teach Dex to block. His talent quotient was way too high in college and high school for frequent blocking duties.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
you'd think someone MIGHT do that at this level, huh
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Well, he's been playing football for a while now.
I’m POSITIVE you of all people know what they say about old dogs and new tricks.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
yeah, they say "old dogs can't suffle cards"
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
"Suffle cards..." getting hungry.....
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
ha!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
are you coming around to my line of thought?
IF we only have to support one Lineman the RT with a quality TE would be the easiset to game plan around.
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 8:00 PM CST up reply actions
To an extent. But it still limits you in your playbook.
And you’re still going to gnash your teeth when a RT-exploiting blitz exposes him in space against the better pass rushers in the league.
But I think when you look at it in terms of immediate need, the need is great inside. For all the self-supporting/mutual-assistance stuff you/I can say about the inside line, if you can’t single-up when the blitz is on, it just takes one blitzing linebacker up the middle to destroy the pocket.
I think holding up, man-for-man in the middle makes it a LOT easier for the QB to parse enemy intentions. If it takes 2 extra hats up the gut, the defense is giving something away somewhere else. Also, if your interior line just plain holds UP against the bull rush, there’s only so many guys you can send up the gut, before they start getting in each other’s way.
I’m not sure where the tipping point is, but I know the Chiefs aren’t there, yet, and YES, I agree that if you have that inside seal, it’s a whole lot easier for your backs and TEs to anticipate where the help is needed and the OTs to trust their help.
But I still think that as a pure tactical question, you need something more elite on the outside, because that guy’s standing alone, and needs to be able to play in more space than his interior fellows. But along the way to GETTING that guy, it sure is nice to have that inside seal. The longer path to the QB IS off the edge.
Then it’s a question of sure-fire GOOD-to-GREAT in the middle, so that the outside rush is your ONLY worry. I personally feel that Asamoah would give B-Rich a lot more confidence if Asamoah wasn’t having to keep such a weather eye on the inside, giving help to Wiegs giving help to Lilja…
would of ≠ would've
kaching!
so if we get DeCastro at G and have Hudson at C and Asamoah on the OTHER side … solid AND young AND strong AND good for a decade up the middle
(wonder if Pioli is reading this? I sure hope so!)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I think there's a lot more certainty in the interior.
You pretty much KNOW the guy’s gonna help you. Good OTs are REALLY distant outliers. That, alone is reason enough to blow a top pick on an elite prospect, just as it’s reason enough for picking lots of them, farther down, and hoping they’ll develop. I’m just not excited about picking them HIGH and hoping they’ll develop…
would of ≠ would've
So,
that bad help being given to Richardson you mentioned above; you thinking some of that might be because the backs are having to check for the inside rush first? And maybe they check there a little too much because they don’t trust the inside protection? That would be trust issues just like the defense had not too long ago when the safeties couldn’t cover because they didn’t trust the run stoppers.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I think it's possible.
But I also think B-Rich needs help quite a bit. I’m also having a bit of an issue with those plays that call for a cut block by the OT (left or right), basically planning on getting the ball out quick, when defenses are EXPECTING the payoff on their pass rush, either sack or quick pass, against this Chiefs team.
As much as I see some confusion on blitz pickups, I’d still say there’s not a lot of confidence in B-Rich 1-on-1. The backs should be ready to jack up blitzing LBs coming up the middle, depending on what the D dials up. And when that happens, the tackles need to hold up, and that calls for something close to elite, to take on all comers.
I do think more stout at LG and C would see B-Rich getting more help more often from Asamoah against the inside move.
would of ≠ would've
Are you sure it was B-Rich outside in the Seattle game?
Seems to me they moved Waters to LT that time.
would of ≠ would've
From CBS Sports (Chad Reuter):
Pass blocking: Tall, long, athletic pass protector. Generally gets out of three-point stance with good knee bend and a wide base. Improving his ability to use his hands to redirect rushers and late blitzers away from the pocket. Power rushers lose most battles, good anchor in close quarters, will reset hands and move feet to sustain. Stops his feet after initial contact at times, relying on length but allowing defender to get the corner or spin inside.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I think we should cut Lilja
He is too small. Its killing us. I say get a vet who has played G and C like you said, but have him start along with hudson. If Hudson can’t cut it at C, switch him and the vet.
can we get THIS guy back? (Wonder if Pioli views keeping Lilja instead as a mistake ... I do)

FWIW Dept: Hudson was projected coming out of college as a C in the NFL because of his size, considered “too small” for G position … my assumption (I know, never assume anything!) is that he was drafted to take that C spot next year, with this year learning from Wieggy)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Not at ALL sure Pioli had a choice with Waters.
I think it very likely that Waters stuck out his contract and moved on when his obligation was fulfilled.
would of ≠ would've
nice idea for a post, unlike some that are around lately. However, the draft is a different
animal that changes skin year to year depending on the talent in it. Then to further muddy up statistical assessments, team needs vary year to year. I was looking at Wes Buntings rating earlier and Khalil is third to DeCastro and Luck. How often a G gets picked in the first round, compared to a LT? And if I’m not mistaken, there are more undrafted free agents starting on the 0-line than anywhere else by far which would further skew your stats. But trying to ascertain what strategy it takes to form a top notch line by looking at successful teams is a good idea. Hopefully we can get a line built and keep adding talent every year for competition and depth.
Good idea, but the strengths of most of these teams hasn't been their OLs as much as it's been the skill players.
Which is why folks wanna suck for Luck and just strap the team to the back of a QB and dominant wideouts.
would of ≠ would've
I might be mistaken too...
But I believe that the cowboys have two undrafted rookies starting. Add in Tyron Smith and that is three rookies on one team starting.
There are many many variables that can be at play… Especially the ones you said! We can add quality of coaching staff, QB, and receivers to the list to… And many others. I really wanted to emphasize investment in the draft, and free agency (the later lacking in describing the investment mores than the prior).
Go Chiefs!!!!
I think they got a late-round/UDFA hit in Miles Austin, plus adding Dez Bryant didn't hurt.
BTW, that last sentence was a bit tough for me to parse.
would of ≠ would've
THIS raven! yes yes and thank you ... which, of course, you can't do if you've traded away your picks for TCQBWSNBN or somesuch
investment in the draft
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Fantastic post!!
Thank you for taking the time to put that together. I feel that we are set at the left takle position and I find it very interesting that the line is allowing much less pressure on the QB now that Orton is on there. Remember, ww just played oakland and didnt give up a single sack and ….. 4 QB hits? The Packers before that shone just as bright. I contest that when the offense runs like its supposed to and the ball comes out on time and in the right progression, this line plays much better. That said, this is the perfect example of why we need need to take QB high in the first round.
I know, I know…. but I can dream, cant I?
I think the strategy is draft high until you're lookin' pretty good, and develop as many guys as you can.
Look at GB, Indy, and New England. I think their high picks were more off a perception of OL being a weakness – in THEIR case, keeping them from winning a SB, when the REST of us aren’t even making the durn playoffs.
Green Bay and Pittsburgh are both teams that went all the way without a whole lot of run-blocking going on. But it is interesting that GB went all the way the year they drafted the well-schooled Brian Bulaga at RT (with LT upside, but prob’ly not…).
But I do see a fair amount of reaching-for-need in the OT dept by some perennial contenders. And it’s not all paying instant dividends. Certainly don’t seem to see instant starters from some of those 1sts.
would of ≠ would've
Bulaga is interesting...
Kinda like Steve was questioning earlier… He was a guard that tranisitioned into a tackle at the pro level, yet nobody is yelling for him to go back to his natural position of guard. Sherrod is another RT that didn’t start, but was being groomed to be a tackle. It should be interesting to see where they go next year.
Go Chiefs!!!!
Sherrod was T all along, no?
and I know everyone LOVES Baldwin and Sherrod has NOT had a very good year, but …
/sigh
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
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"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
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hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
just with Mills examples
it rolls right back to elite QB play behind a maybe suspect O-line.
Harder for a sub par QB to elevate an offensive line
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 28, 2011 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
this is true, Steve, but even an elite QB can't do much from a horizontal position ... w/o the OLine, the QB doesn't have the time he needs, regardless of how good he might be
Harder for a sub par QB to elevate an offensive line
… and an elite OLine can make a “good” QB look “great” (see: Chiefs, Kansas City, circa 2003, et al)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
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"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Spoken like a man who hasn't watched Cutler, Brees or Rodgers.
I think a great QB can elevate the team, but I don’t think it’s a smart bet. Can’t go 2-deep on elite QB. When he goes down, you look like Chicago with Caleb Hanie. They might be on to something the way McCown seems to be playing, but I’m with you on the Oline, Ups. Does too much for the running game, and helps the passing game both by protections and the power of the play fake.
Besides, if you’re goin’ all-out for a great QB, why the hell do you want to surround him with crap? Makes no sense.
would of ≠ would've
oh, I've seen Manning, Brees, Rodgers ... and they can indeed overcome SOME deficiencies of a bad OLine and WR's too
but look at Bradford for example … a year ago as a rookie it all seemed to fall into place for him, had a terrific season and this year SHOULD have been even better … but it wasn’t
now, a part of that was injuries and another part is that he’s still developing, but the Rams are far from having an elite OLine much less an elite WR corps, and it all turned out to be too much for the kid to overcome immediately when things started to go south
your last point, Prof, is the most important part of all: why surround an elite QB with crap? GIGO for those who are into computer sciences … Garbage In, Garbage Out
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"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
what are you trying to sell me here? ;-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
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"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
First in... first out...
Steve has stocked shelves for way to long (Just don’t ask me how I know).
I prefer the FOIL method to FIFO!
Go Chiefs!!!!
touche!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
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"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
LIFO for managing inventory, on the theory that fast-selling items are replaced more often.
You know. Stuff like crankshafts (OL) are gonna be around for awhile, but stuff like high-performance oil filters (QBs) here today, gone tomorrow.
Works great for auto parts, but not for perishables, like dairy and produce!
would of ≠ would've
are RB's considered dairy products? :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Fresh fruit.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
oh, now you're comparing apples to oranges ;-)
yes! we have no bananas … we have no bananas today!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Sorry about the "hasn't watched" crack, ups.
You and I are on the same page, here.
would of ≠ would've
yeah we are
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
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"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
But an awesome QB can elevat a average or subpar line, just look to GB. That
QB talent there can take the team and win regardless of average line play. However he has above average talent catching the ball. In today’s NFL, skill positions dominate because the rule changes let them showcase that talent. I am all for building a helluva line, both sides of the ball, BUT, we cannot afford to jack around with average QB play. Trying to justify losing, season after season, because we need just one more lineman, LB, etc doesn’t cut it. Sure you can make a run and contend, once in awhile, but to win it you have to have above average QB play.
dubid, not saying we don't want or need an elite QB, but they don't come along every day
as Prof Mills pointed out the other day: if they were so east to come by then EVERYONE would have one … an elite QB can take things just so far, but w/o the line AND the running game even then he can only do so much
ask any NFL GM and they’ll tell you that you build a team from the inside out, start on the lines and work out to the skill positions, like building a house you do the foundation first
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
well hell ips, notice the i like you inserted in mine, THIS year is the time
and place to chase that elusive top notch QB. WHY? Simple really. We have plenty of cap space, drafting close to the top ten, which means we make an attractive trading partner. And then we have trade bait other than draft picks. We most likely will never be in this position again, and when a team is willing to forego drafting a QB when they have a top pick in the draft because they already have a QB. The only reason Peyton isn’t in Indy is because he can’t play. Forget about all the other smoke being blown about that situation. If Manning is out of action then they will not trade the rights of their pick. St.Louis, on the other hand is in position to do so, the consolation prize being RG3. I think it is a necessary thing, trading up, if we want to get away from having a mediocre team year after year. If you have seen my posts, which you have, you know I have been harping on the o-line fix as loud or louder than anyone else for a couple of years now. In this circumstance, I am “all in” for trading up to get an above average QB.
There are 101+ scenarios of how we can get the offensive line fixed.
If we can fix the line and get a Franchise QB by trading up… by all means I’m for it.
We are not far from building a dynasty line… How about we go out and get Carl Nicks to fill the LG position (going to cost a buttload of money), then sign a tackle in the 2nd or 3rd. By doing it this way we are betting the 2013 draft. The rest of the 2012 pick(s) should then go to LBers, DBs, or TE’s that have shown stellar special teams play.
Go Chiefs!!!!
THIS is why I love Steve's "vision" of using the top 3 picks for OT, OG, TE ... build an OLine that's set for years
building a dynasty line
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
ME TOO!!!
Then we can concentrate on other things for a few years.
Go Chiefs!!!!
kaching!
build the best and strongest foundation for a house first, and THEN add walls, roof … and THEN the “eye candy” carpet and paint job
you can remodel the house anytime you want to later on, get new carpet, new appliances, whatever … but only as long as the foundation is still good
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
House metaphors...
I like sales. I got a great deal on some really nice flooring long before I needed it. But by the time I get around to installing it, it will still be really nice flooring, and I’ll have spent a fraction on flooring that I would have if I’d waited.
What if, the year we get done with our “foundation,” it’s a repeat of 2011 where the most successful QBs were a guy with a huge cloud over his head and a guy with, uh, a red cloud growing out of his head? Both with HUGE question marks? Strike while the iron’s hot, a bird in the hand, etc, etc….if we have a chance at an individual we believe in, don’t pass it up.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
don't put the cart before the horse :-)
never count your chickens (or elite QB’s) before they hatch
fools (and Mike Ditka) rush in where angels fear to tread
a fool and his money (or draft picks) are soon parted
(isn’t this fun!)
now, if we can get that QBotF on sale at a fraction of the cost … well sure, why not!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Here's another one:
December
Sun shines through haze
I put my thoughts
Toward future days
It’s no surprise
I close my eyes
And close the door
Not really a folksy saying, but it’s been going through my head since Christmas Eve :(
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
deep stuff there, my friend
but hey, cheer up … it gets better, just a lot of work to do in the meantime
…and miles to go before I sleep
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Nice rhetoric, Ups. I like the way you used the "bargain" argument.
That’s the thing about team-build. You are gonna struggle getting ahead by getting too greedy about drafting The Guy. The failure rates in the NFL draft are high enough to ALWAYS argue for parlaying what you have into MORE PICKS, PERIOD.
The trade-up for QB argument is getting harder to argue against, for the simple reason that there’s a sense that the overall team is getting stronger, and it’s time to get a great QB. From MY perspective, Pioli’s done a good overall team build, but why get all flighty at this point, and stop doing what’s been raising the floor, right along?
I think if the Chiefs keep doing it “right,” lots of people will be pissed in December, because an average QB throws the season-ending pick. If they get “flighty” and chase too hard after QB, lots of people will be pissed in December, because fundamental O-Line problems cost them in the postseason, or worse, there’ll be lots of people STILL bitching about the QB position.
I’d just as soon see ‘em make Stanzi-type picks, at a relative bargain, scour the FA pool for good all-around QBs, with emphasis on vision and accuracy. The thing about being patient, here, is there’s a lot of QB talent that goes unrealized, for lack of a good situation. A number of these “failures” are still pretty good players.
For instance, we all seem to think Caleb Hanie is a bust. I can’t help but be suspicious about that eval, because I know what kind of team he has around him, and how tenuous that “improved protections for Cutler” turned out to be. Mike Martz has always been overestimated as a coordinator, especially in his OWN eyes, trying to perform miracles with the vestiges of the team that Dick Vermeil built, and believing he can perform miracles in Chicago, where are they have are good QBs, with one great one, and maybe that Josh McCown is something special, too.
Anyhoo, a team that’s built right gives itself a chance of being successful with a lot of pretty darn QBs, whose only sin is NOT being able to elevate a 2nd- or 3rd-tier roster. On THIS Field of Dreams, build it, and the QBs will come, and at LEAST you will get a good reading on the guys you have. I THINK I’ve seen enough of Cassel to doubt his pocket awareness, release, and ability to throw a good ball from a less-than-perfect situation. But I see enough O-Line anti-dominance to not want to go crazy for QBs, before I see something beefier up front.
would of ≠ would've
I don't think Pioli kids himself about being a genius talent evaluator.
Just pretty good, but above all, conservative and (mostly) systematic. I think trading up is risky, with abyssal downside. I hope that Pioli does, too. This is one area where you don’t want to kid yourself about being a genius, and bend your efforts to playing the percentages.
The percentages of 1st-round QBs in the league are skewed because of the fact that everybody does it, and there’s a lot more at stake in getting the guy on the field and keeping him there. If you don’t like what you’re getting out of the guy, then you first look to build the team around him. While team-build is generally a good idea, your team-build efforts are slowed by the friggin’ QB you mortgaged the farm to acquire.
would of ≠ would've
or sometimes the Head Coach to implement it
Orton might be that diamond in the rough
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 6:28 PM CST up reply actions
yah, I just see so much more in the guy than I ever saw in Cassel ...
imagine if we’d had Orton LAST year
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Imagine
if we have him NEXT year….
If we do manage to draft a QB, we’ll need either a top five line or a decent vet for him to sit behind his first couple of years. I think we can get a solid vet a lot quicker and easier than we can build a top five line…..
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I agree, and this is what they SHOULD do
start Orton, develop someone/anyone, finish the OLine to be the best in the league for the next 10 years and add depth
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Nicks or Decastro in the middle.
1st/2nd/3rd pick to push B-Rich up or out.
Orton would be fine with a better O-Line. That’s what my eyes tell me. The line matched up well against Green Bay, et voila, 299 yards, with some red zone work being next on the agenda. They didn’t match up well against Oakland, and Orton’s lack of mobility was exposed.
Fix that O-Line, keep Orton. I’d be OK with another system pick or even FA to fight it out with Orton, Cassel or Stanzi. I think if they want to make real progress, there ought to be strong commitment to keeping the offensive scheme in place. Give the players some continuity and make it as level a competition as possible.
If you do a good job bringing in one or two QBs, I think Cassel gets demoted to backup, and he’d be a great one to have if things go haywire up front, but if they get it RIGHT up front, Cassel will be passed over for a bigger and better arm.
would of ≠ would've
Prof, you've been reading my mind (what's left of it)
or Steve’s …
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Heh. Continuity is an argument for keeping Muir, too.
That’s where people are likely to hate my opinion. But I really don’t think anybody has any real reason to think Muir’s been the problem. If anything, I think OL emphasis is a great thing to have in your OC. All the talk we spend on getting talent, when maybe the key is those fat, lumpy old guys, who’ve seen it from the player’s perspective, and don’t treat everybody like eager and arrogant skill players.
would of ≠ would've
again, we think alike, Prof
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I've come to hate the general idea of Oline guys as coordinators
and definitely as play callers. Maybe some specific ones can do it, but I think a guy who’s dedicated his career to the line just doesn’t have a good grasp of what goes on outside the box. And outside the box includes the majority of the field.
That said, I wouldn’t mind at all if Muir went back to coaching our line.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Besides,
SOMEbody has to disagree with you :)
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
That'd be nice, but not exactly what I was saying...
I think a prospective QB should sit behind a vet, OR, a really good offensive line. He don’t need both, either one gives him a chance to breath and learn.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Without the O-Line, you're likely going to be forced to
put the rookie on the field, either before his time, or in a bad situation. Likely both.
would of ≠ would've
Eh, only if it's a bad Oline.
I don’t think we’ve got a critical situation with our Oline. I think one quality free agent or one mid-round pick that pans out gives us an average or above-average line. We’re already near the middle of the league in sacks given up.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
we can't score in the red zone ... at all
OLine has to be SOME of that issue
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Yeah, two tiny (relatively) guys right next to each other right in the middle.
We’ve already got a replacement for one.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
maybe Hudson will at least be stronger (and faster?) than Wiegs
offset by not knowing nearly as many moves and tricks of the trade
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
He's listed up at 300lbs now. 6"2"
At training camp, he reminded me of a walking pec.
He should be significantly better than Wiegs when the defense knows he’s comin’. Which are the situations we struggle in right now, can’t make a foot when we go nose to nose.
But yeah, I’m worried about losing experience, too.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Too many big DTs in next year's schedule.
Saying we’re OK on O-Line is saying your dog USUALLY comes when you call. It’s always or it’s bad (exception being females in heat within scent range).
would of ≠ would've
I do NOT think we're OK on O-line.
But I don’t think we need a new LT to fix it, or necessarily to spend a first round pick. We need at most two new guys, neither of which would really need to start immediately, at positions that Raven says the best teams draft on average in rounds 2.9 and 4.3.
Now, that opinion doesn’t include unique guys like Steve thinks DeCastro might be. If we get a shot at a ten year starter and team leader, that’d be well worth any single draft pick.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
BINGO!
another one joins the DeCastro Parade :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I SAID IF!!
:)
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I hear ya, Prof
that’s why I loved Steve’s post (the one just above this post) and his “vision” for Pioli to keep raising the floor, or finishing the foundation, or what have you …
sure a Luck or RG3 would be awesome, but the cost is insane, and if the kid doesn’t pan out (or not as fast as most would like, as in within 12 seconds) then everyone panics and says “bust” … or if the OLine bleeds, or the RB can’t come back from injury and the QB is out there alone like Orton seems to be (or has been in his career) then it’s a mess
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Yes. I'm all in favor of raising the floor.
But the 2nd-round pick for Cassel was semi-questionable, as was the 2nd-round pick for Dex, even though I really like him. I just feel like a slower guy would’ve had more success than Dex, if Dex’s pick had been spent on a freakin’ blocker.
So I’m not sold on Pioli’s philosophy. His “team speed” idea in 2010 wasn’t a bad one, but he sidestepped beefing up the OL, with a pick that was perfect for a top G/RT prospect.
would of ≠ would've
Here's how I see Pioli's pattern:
2010 was the year for speed with Berry, Dex, Javy. 2011 was the year for athleticism with Baldwin, Hudson, Houston, Bailey. So 2012 might be the year for beef…..or a QB :)
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Yup. After a year of Mike Brown at SS, especially,
team speed was a big issue. I don’t think they needed to spend a 2nd on an OW, though. OWs are the dagger in the heart on a well-balanced offense. OWs without the balance are what I call “gimmicks.”
would of ≠ would've
Yeah, I've told you what I think about Dex.
Great guy, but….I think I’ll be comparing him to my own pre-draft wish for a long time, that being Jacoby Ford. Who went in, what, the fifth round?
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
With Orton calling the signals, Dex is a bigger OW.
Cassel can’t find the little squirt or get the ball within his catch radius (which is pretty big for a small guy, but still a small radius).
Dex is a player. He’ll be a bigger threat next season, if they will just get SERIOUS about O-Line.
would of ≠ would've
Yeah, I remember thinking Cassel had a problem with short guys even before we got Dex.
One of the first bad things I let myself notice about him. He overthrew Savage quite a bit.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Throwing to the backs is also about
striking while the iron is hot. There’s a lot of “now or never” in the timing of those screens and such.
would of ≠ would've
I didn't count 2009 :)
I’m not sure there was a plan in 2009. But, hell, I’m not sure there were plans the other years, either, I’m just speculating.
Actually, I did think about ’09 a bit, because I was thinking that Washington and Lawrence (speed guys) gave Pioli the flexibility to draft Asamoah in the third the next year.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
2009 wasn't a plan, it was a clusterf ... you know
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Sorry mills but the Patriots, with all those picks
have squat on defense. Extra picks give you opportunity to assemble talent, doesn’t mean you will. Great talent seems to find a way to play.
No guarantees. You're right.
But as a system, it’s served Belichick quite well. Right now, you’re seeing WRs filling-in in the secondary for the Patsies, though. And we’ll see what they look like on D next year. They seem to be “between” perimeter players, in general, at the moment, and are making up for it on offense with a couple very good TEs.
Those extra 2nds and 3rds entail showing some patience and making value picks that maybe don’t serve immediate needs, but will be coming on in (possibly) unanticipated ways in a year or two.
I think Solder was a stab at a PON, based on where they sat in the draft. Kind of like a Victor Riley pick, only Solder has outstanding mobility for a lineman.
would of ≠ would've
Heh heh, Robert Frost > Wayne Static.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Frost is my favorite
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I never heard Frost speak,
but I bet Static has a better voice.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Elite Chiefs line of 2003
2 first rounder tackles
2 UDFAs, C, LG
3 rounder RG
first round TE
I’m having a hard time applying draft statistics to such small groups of players. The concept of draft order is ephemeral, lasting from draft day till the first day of training camp. Putting a number on a human being is never going to really answer any questions. If all these numbers are entered in a Watson computer and players drafted accordingly, does anyone think there is any higher probability of wins and losses?
"An atheist is a man who watches a Notre Dame - Southern Methodist University game and doesn't care who wins." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
by electriclight on Dec 29, 2011 6:05 AM CST up reply actions
ha! morning, Steve!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
just showered, first mug of caffeine down ... having a dog means never getting to sleep late
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
or sleep well
Damn dog steals my covers
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 8:15 AM CST up reply actions
good doggie! patpatpat
mine only does that once I’m vertical for the day … I think that’s part of why she makes sure I’m awake
1) needs to go out
2) wants her morning cookie
3) knows I need to get up anyway (on work days)
4) wants MY blankies (damed thief!)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
That's cute, heh.
I found one of my dogs dead this morning. He had congestive heart failure, so I knew it was coming at any time. And buried him today. Anywhoo … love and appreciate every beautiful moment you spend with her. They just don’t live long enough.
Btw: did you happen to see that promo Dorsey did about sheltering your dogs from the winter weather? Have a good one, bruh. :+)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 5:40 PM CST up reply actions
awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
dude, I am SO sorry! :-
Miss Bella does drive me crazy at times, but gotta love her … she IS my child (and spoiled rotten, even though she lies about it and tells others she’s STARVING)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Thank you, DJ Uppers. Still got too many to keep me company, though, heh.
Yes, dogs are always “starving.” Mine have been gorging on scavenged dead deer parts since deer season last month still. But of course they also still expect to be fed by me too … cause …yanno, they suck in their sides and give me the sad doe-eyes … when I come home from work. Dogs have NO pride.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
A healthy dog tends to have a bit of a starveling look.
Keepin’ ’em trim is a tough thing to do when you LIKE them, which you always DO.
would of ≠ would've
I've always kept them trim ...
until my bike wreck a couple years ago kinda slowed me down some. Haven’t been able to run them as hard since then. But, nahh, until they run outta deer, they ain’t gettin fed much else. And they’ve been chasing ME in the truck around my place, and the old abandoned trails hereabouts … instead of hitching rides, lol.
But my hounds will go out of their own accord and tree coons, run coyotes … and probably a bobcat here and there (they keep on treeing something after a dead sprint of a 100 to 200 yards or so, and then it bails when I get so close, and then they’re off to the races again; gotta be a bobcat, as we haven’t gotten reports of cougars around here … yet) … so they help keep themselves trim due to good genes and training, thankfully. :+)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 8:07 PM CST up reply actions
Not like you're in the city.
Be careful about chasing deer, though. There’re laws against that.
I’m crippled-up enough, I’d have to get a treadmill and park it next to my stationary bike. Love dogs, but I’m too sedentary to do any decent (to me) dog justice.
would of ≠ would've
then walk the dog on the treadmill

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I'm sorry to hear about your loss Loco...
Go Chiefs!!!!
Thank you, Ravenhawk.
I’ve buried so many over the years, you’d think it wouldn’t get to me, but I’m a bleeding heart. Oh well, I only have 2 Redbone and 1 Black n’Tan Coonhounds left, and a white German Shepherd named Snowball. So they’ll keep me busy. Again, thanks. Peace. :+)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 6:15 PM CST up reply actions
My daughter lost her Great Perinese and Grandmother in the same week.
She feels your pain… even if this was a few months ago for her.
Go Chiefs!!!!
Oh, a Great Pyrennes!
Loved them when I “interacted” (these weren’t exactly big baby pets) with the ones guarding sheep and cattle in Wyoming. Well, my grandparents are all gone now, so I know what its like, too. Tell her to stay strong. Okay? :+)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 7:25 PM CST up reply actions
She was much younger than the white german sherpard mix.
Those big bundles of joy just don’t last very long in this world.
Go Chiefs!!!!
The canine version of a 300-lb lineman.
Really pushing the envelope of the basic design.
would of ≠ would've
Hah, just found out what a Great Pyrenees looks like.
My Dad always had Beagles and bird dogs.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
That almost looks dead up like her dog...
(granted it was at the ex-wife’s house)
I just remember some brownish on the ears. they look like balls of fluff when they are babies.
Go Chiefs!!!!
they are BEAUTIFU:L animals
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Yeah, my grandparents had a couple of beagles
when I was growing up here with them. And I suspect one or two part bird dogs that were just strays that wandered up here. Just about any dog found a home here if they stayed around. But coonhounds and border collies (as he raised up to 100 sheep counting lambs before they were sold off every year) were my grandpa’s main dogs.
We’d have about 4 coonhounds, and a pair of border collies, plus whatever mixed breeds wandered up and decided to stay. Heh, I think between both my grandparents, they had … 12 dogs at one time is the most I can remember.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 30, 2011 12:34 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, what, about 7-9 years for most?
My dog that just passed away was only 9. He was half German Shepherd and half yellow lab. He was big (about 110 lbs lean) with a defective ticker from the start in life, I suspect.
OTOH: My grandpa’s (took her over when my grandpa passed back in 2007) border collie that passed away last Feb. had to of been about 2 months shy of 17! But none of them live long enough.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 30, 2011 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
Next-door neighbors had a Great Pyrenees.
Beautiful animal. Slow to trust, but not a mean bone in her body, although I’d hate to be the predator after her sheep!
would of ≠ would've
Thank you for the sentiments, Dr. Mills. :+)
Like I said, I still have several critters to keep me busy. :+) Anywhoo. This is a football board.
All of this math/stats analysis and charts about how to build an O-line goes WAY, way over my hippie-hillbilly, Certified California Airhead brain.
But, watching about every Stanford game the last two seasons now, I’ll take David DeCastro OVER Jonathan Martin … PLEASE! I’m tellin ya … to my no-nuthin eye … this DeCastro dude is a once in 5-year O-lineman period! The BEST O-lineman after Ryan Kalil period.
Martin is a pretty kickass run-blocker, but he’s a little too shaky at pass-blocking for my tastes … especially for a top-15 pick. He’s another one of these potential stud LT’s if he learns and does this, this and that for a season or two. Personally, I like comparing him to Brandon Albert: kickass run-blocker, but is gonna have some problems going up against good NFL-caliber speed rushers.
I think we’d basically end up with another Brandon Albert at RT. Is a “Brandon Albert” OT worth a top 15 pick for our RTOTF? Ehhh, I think we could get better value if somebody like Mike Adams, Zebrie Sanders, or even a healthy Andrew Datko, is there in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th rd? That’s my no-nuthin formula and blue print for building upon our O-line, lol.
Oh, and Sanders and Datko have already been playing a ZBS next to Hudson at FSU for the last 2 or 3 years now. That too can’t hurt … can it?
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 6:59 PM CST up reply actions
My rule of thumb on T prospects though, is if there's a whiff of
“struggles against speed rushers,” the guy is almost sure to be a reacher-and-grabber at the next level. The best OTs in college have NFL speed adjustments to make. If there’s any question from college film, then I don’t consider the guy 1st-round material. Period. (The LT reaches from last draft were for guys with stout questions, but NOT footspeed questions). Let someone else discover a guy has been coasting through college ball just by being freakishly big.
The “eye test” on Decastro duly noted. If you’re gonna reach, reach for the elite o-lineman.
would of ≠ would've
That's a good thumb you got there. I can get behind that thumb.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
make that TWO
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I'm a lot lower-energy/commitment when it comes to critters.
But Black Cat left a big hole in MY heart. I think it’s the total dependence that makes me trustworthy, and the trust that tore at me.
would of ≠ would've
Yeah, sad to hear that, Mills.
I don’t know … there’s just something about a cats that repulse me, personally, lol … no offense. I’m just too much of a dog spirit myself I guess. But there has been a couple of cats that had more “dog-like?” personalities. They were okay, lol.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 30, 2011 1:03 AM CST up reply actions
I never much cared for cats, but they fit my life better.
And once you get over treatin’ critters like stupid humans, you can train dogs or cats pretty effectively. Black Cat came to a whistle. Followed me around like a dog. All a matter of getting how they think and not punishing them for being true to their nature.
would of ≠ would've
I don't know much about DeCastro except what other people here have said,
but if he’s a 1-in-5-year type, then that’d be first round material in my opinion. Would be the same thing as taking a 1-in-5-year safety at #5. Those are the guys you can feel comfortable spending a first rounder on.
Now personally, I think that Griffin might very well be a 1-in-5-year guy. I know our chances of getting him are small, but I hope we try.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
RGIII is no 1-in-5-year guy.
Even if he IS, Cam Newton messed it all up for that title.
would of ≠ would've
No?
I see the same qualities in him that I see in Berry.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I'm not sure I get it. Are you comparing RG3 to Newton?
Their games are nothing alike, if that’s what you mean. Also, their personalities.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Newton looks to me like a once in 5 years kind of talent.
That’s all I’m sayin’.
would of ≠ would've
Bsrkr ... all I know about DeCastro is that Steve thinks we should grab in the 1st
and THAT’S more than good enough for me :-)
supposedly the top ranked OLineman in the draft, I don’t care if he’s OG instead of OT … if he’s THAT GOOD take him
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Well, ya know what I was saying earlier
about personal background, interviews and stuff. If he’s got that PLUS talent, then welcome to the team.
By contrast, Iupati is a physical specimen and looks like he’s turning into a damn good guard, but I don’t think I’d spend a top twenty on him.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
my overall thinking is (and I think I posted it on Steve's thread last night)
LT Albert (5)
LG DeCastro®
C Hudson (1)
RG Asamoah (2)
RT Someone (?)
TE Moeaki (2)
years of experience in parentheses, although Husdon is limited in playing time and Moeaki hasn’t played a down this year
but that line is young and, if they get a Rookie for RT it’s set for YEARS (barring injury) … a line that you can draft projects to develop and not worry about it for a couple of years, meanwhile you have the dynasty line for years to come
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Looks good to me.
The only thing I’d be worried about is vocal leadership. Hudson seems like he might be kinda mouthy (in a good way), but I’m not sure. I know Albert and Richardson and Asamoah seem pretty quiet. I saw DeCastro out of uniform one time, at an awards show, and he seemed like he might be the vocal type, but that’s a really small sample.
I notice that you have DeCastro copyrighted. You must really like him.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Yeah, another dynasty O-line
and no dynasty QB to get us to the SB. Just like the last 42 years now. Well, we can brag about our O-line, and maybe our Defense too, while watching the great QB’s playing for someone else in the SB every year .. until we too kick the bucket. Have a good night! ;=)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 30, 2011 1:07 AM CST up reply actions
Closest thing to a dynasty O-Line was the Roaf-led unit.
And it had a very short shelf life.
would of ≠ would've
Hey now ...
I always reserve the right to be wrong about everything and everybody, lol. Maybe I’m hyping DeCastro up in my mind just like I am RG3? If I knew so much about football, I’d at least be a coach or a scout for a NAIA school. Heh.
Yep, Brs, I want RG3 too. He has some things to learn and improve on in the pros, but he should be awesome in 2-3 seasons, I think.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 30, 2011 12:43 AM CST up reply actions
Damn, sorry about that, man.
I don’t think I ever had a dog who I didn’t cry for when he or she died.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
same here
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Thank you for the thoughts, Brs.
They’re much appreciated. Still fighting the tears thing. And I’m sure I will be for the next few months. Having my other 4 dogs really helps. And my horse, and my donkey (yes, I really have a real donkey), 2 cows, 3 goats now, and a dozen chickens.
Just sent the 2 hogs to hog heaven last month – and they sure are good eaten. And the feeder steer to Nirvana just this past Monday. I can only hope there’s some kinda heaven for all animal spirits.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 30, 2011 12:53 AM CST up reply actions
oh, I'm not thinking in terms of draft order by any means ... rather that the Chiefs at that point had one of the best OLines ever assembled
not to mention one of the best RB’s of the era (imagine what Priest Holmes might have done had he NOT been injured) along with a GOOD but not ELITE QB in Trent Green, an ELITE TE in TonyG and one GOOD WR in Eddie Kennison
because the OLine could spring Holmes on any given play, the defenses HAD to play honest and that opened it up for the pass, then TonyG was doubled more often than not and that opened it up for Kennison, et al … the point being it all started with that OLine of Roaf, Shields, Waters, Wiegs
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
That was plenty of investment in 2003 at the front of the draft... can't ignore that fact.
Granted 1 of those guys wasn’t drafted by us… but we went out and got him!!!
Any time that you put that high of an investment on the line you can start trying to hit big on these UDFA’s.
Go Chiefs!!!!
yup
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Actually, not quite as high in the draft as the St. Louis line DV won the SB with.
A lot of it depends, I think, on where your organization is, and how successful they are, year in and year out, at developing their own later-round guys. A team that’s starting more or less from scratch should be overstocked with early-round draft picks. Over time, you expect that to even out, provided you know what to look for in your developmental prospects.
What I hated during Carl’s tenure were some of the developmental guys who made it onto the field, because that was all they had. You could really see DV’s influence in that OL build during his tenure in KC. Unfortunately, they kept striking-out on defense, with band-aids like Leslie O’Neal and Chester McGlockton from division foes. Guys who we wanted, because of what they did AGAINST us, but who were let go because they weren’t worth it, anymore (imo).
would of ≠ would've
I think the numbers on all the offensive linemen as a group are probably significant.
I didn’t see where Raven stated his sample sizes, but there should be about eighty linemen amongst ten teams. I’m a little more leery of the position group breakdowns, though, because I assume there’s probably slightly less than 2 of each position per team.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
It is more than 80... there is a total of 94 players on the list.
Starters are slightly lower by the round they were picked…(standard deviation is below)
(Pick 119 compared to pick 85)
AVG 3.711666667 115.2966667 0.295555556 5.712222222
STD 0.755884324 30.33677819 0.229761014 1.614903582
The other important thing is that starters have more experience… which should be obvious. If you are investing in these guys you want to make sure that they pan out before you send them out into the pasture.
Go Chiefs!!!!
Thanks for clarifying.
I seem to remember that 33 is supposed to be the lowest number for a significant small sample size….but I don’t know if that applies to the analyses you did, and I’m too lazy to dig out my old statistics book.
Statistics was a one-time summer class for me, by the way, so it’s not my strongest area.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Sample size changes the p value that is necessary.
If the p value is less than .05 it tells us that the standard deviation has a 95 percent chance of being correct. I did not run a p value… I was way to lazy. When school is back in session I’ll run the numbers through another program that will pull out the p value and some other stats.
Go Chiefs!!!!
Heh, that explanation brings back waaaay too many memories, man.
I found out that I could do well in school if I approached it like I approach an MRE – wolf it without letting it touch my tongue, and keep movin’.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
hahaha sorry to bring back bad memories...
I cringed thinking about it as I wrote. LOL
Go Chiefs!!!!
I think Bulaga was already playing T in college.
I’m pretty sure he was pressed into service, at the least, because I remember seeing highlights of him at T in college.
would of ≠ would've
Yes he did play tackle on occasion... (at least I think he did)
Might wanna ask a Hawkeye fan to be sure.
I think that he played most of his time at guard until an injury happened to one of the tackles.
Go Chiefs!!!!
Here you go
2007: (7/5) All five starts at left guard. 2008: (13/13) All 13 starts at left tackle; Second-team All-Big Ten (coaches), honorable mention All-Big Ten (media). 2009: (10/10) All 10 starts at left tackle; Consensus first-team All-Big Ten, Big Ten Offensive Lineman of the Year, second-team AP All America.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
Bulaga will probably always be limited at LT in the NFL, because of his wingspan.
But watching him match up against the best, it’s like he’s learning on every snap. You need a big bag of tricks to beat this guy all day long. Makes up for his short arms with pretty quick feet. Always plays with leverage, due to those feet.
Bulaga’s just a damn good O-Lineman. I wouldn’t stand still, there, if I were Green Bay, to judge by 2011. I’d be temped to go after ANOTHER OT, and slide Bulaga inside, longer term. But he’s OK at RT.
would of ≠ would've
They already done that with Sherrod... granted he is injured with a broken leg.
I would say that they scored pretty big with Marshall Newhouse. He too is learning every snap of the way since replacing Clifton.
I’d venture to say that they really don’t need any more RT prospects… unless of course if Sherrod is uncapable of returning that would be a different story.
Go Chiefs!!!!
reloading ... reloading ... reloading ...
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Their luck lately is making me wonder which position group will turn into a MASH unit next year...
And how much fun it will be watching Rodgers overcome that, too.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Newhouse is gettin' SCHOOLED out there.
They NEED Clifton and/or Bulaga back, ASAP.
would of ≠ would've
Yeah ... that's what I'm thinkin about this years OT class after Kalil.
If Baluga AND Sherrod can’t take the LT spot away from Clifton, and nor Newhouse either!? I’m very leery of drafting any OT this year too. I think Martin will be surely better than that? He’s strong, but the feet are a little slow. He’s very good, don’t get me wrong. But I’m thinkin’ Martin’s a stud RT, or middle-of-the-pack LT at best.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 30, 2011 1:16 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not averse to drafting OTs. I'm just not seeing an elite LT, so guys like Sanders are
looking like better value.
would of ≠ would've
Question
with 7 rounds in the draft it would take 7+ years to replenish a full NFL roster via draft picks IF you do not miss on any picks. So you could spend all your ones on QB and O-lineman and your defense would be sub-par.
that's it! we spend ALL of our draft picks on QB this year ... surely at least ONE of them has to be "elite" right?
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
There are quite a few things I want to point out about this post
I just wanted to point out a few things that could skew the stuff a bit.
-
1. Are the players playing for the team that drafted them?
2. How long did it take for these players to actually start?
3. How many are playing the position they were drafted to play?
-
One thing that I have noticed in the NFL is that the later round guys dont come in and start at OT in year one. You can have a 3rd round C/G and you can plug him in right away. He might not be a stud but he is serviceable. It is very hard to come in as a 4th round OT and look good at all.
-
OL is really a complicated thing. You cant have an OL with all 1st round picks(if you drafted them) because your talent level in other areas will be pathetic. You dont want all low round players because most of the time they simply are not that talented. It is easy to hide an average OL if he is next to a stud. That is where filling in the gaps with later round guys is done.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
by KSU-Chief on Dec 29, 2011 9:37 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
interesting observations and analyses
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Agreed and I'll try to answer the questions...
1 I did look at whether the players played for the team that drafted them (Unless I’m misunderstanding the question). That is part of the drafted by score. The closer the value is to zero the more likely the team drafted them. Green Bay for example has drafted everyone that is on their o-line. The Giants on the other hand went more with free agents.
2 Great question… I wasn’t really thinking about going back in time to do this research. It already took plenty of time… Maybe for the next breakdowns I’ll go research this and add this. I think that this would be interesting to see.
3 This is a bit subjective, but maybe if I look at whether they had changed positions in their career it would be a bit more objective?
Thanks for the suggestions
Go Chiefs!!!!
Its cool man...
1. I was wondering if that the the “Drafted by” column.
-
2. I was just wondering this because there is a big difference in a guy who was a 5th round pick, on his 4th team in his 5th season and just now became the starter. Over a guy who was a 5th round pick, started in year two and is also on his 5th year.
-
3. Yeah this one is tough. I look at a few example: Gallery moving from LT to LG, Oher moving from LT to RT to LT to RT, Williams for Chi moving from LT to RT. This USE to be more improtant because of the draft position but with the new payscale and the fact that we are seeing an increasing trend in other OL positions going higher in the draft…
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
I agree they can't ALL be 1st-rounders.
Hudson, 2nd, Asamoah 3rd. Plenty of quality in 2nd and 3rd on the interior.
I think your aggression in the draft should be driven by what you have. The more Mimses you develop, the better. But while you’re waiting, there should be a high-end bias in your OL picks.
I think a Decastro can skew your decision-making. Tough not to pull the trigger on the 2nd- or 3rd-best prospect in the draft, regardless of position.
would of ≠ would've
I'd take him in a heartbeat without even thinking
I mean seriously … THE best OLineman in the whole damned draft, give him a uniform and that spot is set for 10 years
if you have someone good next to him as well, someone young (maybe Asamoah as an example) you have a chunk done for years to come … toss in the other new young stud who’s learned from the old master (Hudson) and you have most of an Oline for a decade, anchored by a savvy but still young enough for another 5 yrs vet (Albert) and bang, you have most of the Oline set for a run at a dynasty …
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
RT is still an issue. But I can see a late 1st or 2nd/3rd round pick putting B-Rich on notice.
We’ll see if Pioli is buyin’ these arguments or if he just goes all ga-ga and mortgages the future.
Most likely scenario is he does SOMEthing on O-Line, I’ll think it’s not enough, and the Chiefs will be in the 10-6 to 6-10 window, without a prayer in the playoffs, AGAIN.
would of ≠ would've
Always depends on injuries.
I think we’d be good next year even if we just stood pat, as long as we avoided injuries. But of course, no team ever avoids injuries.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Last time we stood pat was '95-'96. Bad choice. Nobody stands still.
But again, I don’t like the o-line situation, just yet. I see some good players, but they’re about 2 players from what i want to see.
would of ≠ would've
Just illustrating a point. I mean, how many times has the question been asked, "what would our record have been with Charles, Berry, and Moeaki?"
This team has some talent. I was also counting signing our own FAs as standing pat. But yeah, it would definitely be NOT good to not have a new blood infusion. Kinda like Frank Haith’s first recruiting year….
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
no question this team has talent, but we also have holes AND lack of depth at key positions
margin for error is not very big in the NFL
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I hear ya, Brsrkr.
The record might have been better. But let’s be honest and admit that having Charles START against Baltimore in the playoffs didn’t produce the ‘W’.
would of ≠ would've
... and I'll be right there thinkin' the same damned thing
Most likely scenario is he does SOMEthing on O-Line, I’ll think it’s not enough …
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Great post!
I like your approach but 1/3 of the teams you targeted have elite QBs: Brady, Brees, and Rodgers while the rest have QBs who are very good (bordering on elite) with the only exceptions being Ryan and Vick. And Vick’s running ability can skew the analysis too.
But overall I think you’re on the right path in that excellent OLs do not have to be built with all 1st round draft picks.
Have you ever looked at the issue from the angle of how well teams do who spend lots of early draft picks on their OL? Note that the 49ers have spent 7 1st and 2nd round draft picks in the last 10 years on their OL but they didn’t get into the playoffs until Alex Smith stepped his game up. And I don’t think they’ll go far unless he continues improving.
I’m all for investing in the OL but you also have to invest in a QB. Is that Orton? Maybe but he’s struggled with consistency so I think that should be kept in mind.
chicken or egg?
how many talented QB’s have come out and failed because they were on a crappy team with a crappy OLine and lack of surrounding talent?
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Really it shouldn't be a chicken or an egg arguement.
Top passing offensive teams have put in this investment to protect the QB in 2011. It would be interesting to see how this compares year in and year out… then observe the trends of the top ten each year, and how they compare. This would take LOTS of time to chart and complete.
So lets say that you grab a QB that had a decent year with another team the year before. We hadn’t had much investment in our offensive line as the team that the QB just came out from. Now the QB is running around like a chicken with its head cutoff and is gun shy. This QB would have had a better chance to develop his skills if the line had a been more investment.
If the QB or O-line doesn’t have talent through investment then they won’t reach their full capacity for success. This is more of a symbiotic relationship than anything else that I can think of…
Go Chiefs!!!!
yes but investment doesn't mean all high draft picks
which is the whole point of the analysis. most of the good OL have maybe 1 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder and then later round guys.
I wish that I was able to show an exact 'sweet spot' of when to draft a specific linemen
or combination of linemen Finding this would be exhaustive. It is something that would take plenty of time to do looking at this over many years.
It does appear that high draft picks are not necessary for every position. Just doing a quick look at the interior of the offensive line. It appears that it is best to have someone that has played on another team, and was drafted 2nd-6th round. The fourth round (pick 140) being the average…
Go Chiefs!!!!
it's interesting stuff, I just hope people don't read this as a "blueprint" for building the OLine here (or anywhere else)
the realy bottom line is “whatever works, works”
of course you COULD find out all that info if you didn't waste time commenting here and instead used your time more wisely so as to assemble a much larger database and do some REAL numbers crunching like a good stats guy SHOULD be doing, sheesh ... what are we paying you for, anyway!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
This shouldn't be considered a 'blueprint' perse...
Though I’m willing to say that there are 3 ‘blueprints’ that teams use to build their line. One way is going all draftee approach… this is a way a team can be prideful at their success. Another way is to steal someone else’s free agents… other teams already knocked off the rust on these players so why not capitalize. The last way is a combo of each.
All of these ways were successful in 2011, but I’d wager than that last and first ways are the most successful year in and year out.
Go Chiefs!!!!
Agreed, I don't believe in blueprints where people are concerned.
They We are too unpredictable. I believe the personal background research is the most important part of draft scouting, and game tape is second, followed by interviews, then all the height/weight/speed stuff.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
yup
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
yes, identifying the would be nice
Where do you get your stats?
I ususally go to http://www.pro-football-reference.com/
... and the offense lays an egg ... see? I was RIGHT! :-)
Now the QB is running around like a chicken with its head cutoff …
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
JA! And our QB ... Mr. Matty Nice that is ...
Still CANNOT make a GD play even when he has 30 effin seconds to decide … and even when he does finally make up his mind to throw it … its skipped a yard short, sails above an 8-feet-tall Bigfoot’s outstretched arms at 10 yards, or is thrown behind a friggin’ Octopus’s tentacles by about 3 feet! And then he spends the other half of the time running from ghosts!
Yanno … I really don’t know why you dislike Matty Nice so much??? He’s big, he’s strong, he can run, and he can and will block. He’s the PERFECT QB to tun the Full-House T, or any Woody Hayes/Stram/Marty smash-mouth football sets and plays you want to run. KO lacks all those attributes by a long damn site! And so does Hippie Hatin’ Icky Ricky Stanzi … at least from what I watched of his Hawkeye days?
Matty Nice is the PERFECT QB to run our Martyball offense you want to see so excruciatingly desperately again(yeah, Tebow would’ve been better. Oh well … Mickey D outbid us for him [le sigh]). So get off his jock! And stick to disc jockeying! DUDE! ;=)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 5:24 PM CST up reply actions
And if ya gotta problem with anything I said ...
then: “Come at me, bro!” I’ll nail ya right in the nads with my cannon arm from 10 feet! It might take me 20 tries … but I will … I swear it!
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
alright ... who let the dawg out!
damnit, I keep tellin’ y’all and tellin’ y’all to CLOSE THE GATE, but does anyone listen? nooooooooooo-ooooooooooo!
someone call the county and tell ‘em Loco’s outta the yard AGAIN …
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Dude! I live a mile down in a holluh from my nearest neighbor.
Which is my best human friend, too. So, thankfully, he, nor his family, (except on a sad, rare occasion) doesn’t even witness my idiotic, incoherent hissy fits. Just my critters … and, well, the family of Sasquatches living in the woods above my Hippie Hacienda. So, no need to call the gubmint even once I’m outta my own yard gate … and not really even beyond my lane gate if I make a right turn off into the brush … since its a 3/4 mile away from my lair at the end of a dead-end road, as well.
Sooo … no cops needed down in har! No “close” neighbors. My dogs think I’m cool, my horse does, and even the Sassy Family when they come to visit every night – only cause I feed all of them of course. Its all COOL in Loco’s world, my man. Laterzzz for realzzz this time! Peace Out … V
P.S.: If ya wanta visit sometime … God willin, and the creeks don’t rise … I’ll leave the light on fer ya. :+)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 29, 2011 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
Loco's what ya call "good people"
you got it, too … critters can tell
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I think they can.
Although I’ve been adjudged negatively when a big-ass canine scairt me.
would of ≠ would've
someday, my friend, someday ... be there with bells on, lookin' for that light :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
This is fantastic. I love objective analyses that agree with my totally subjective opinion.
Congratulations on finding a way to separate the offensive line into five different positions in a world where the traditional view is that the left tackle is the only guy that matters.
Snarkasm aside, I think this is great, and would look forward to your analyzing the best running teams.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Raven, there's something that I didn't see anybody talk about in the comments,
so I’m going to try to draw a conclusion assumption from your numbers. Please let me know if I’m misinterpreting your stats.
It looks like LTs on these teams have a significantly lower average draft position than the RTs, but the standard deviation for draft position is about the same for each. That sorta tells me that teams are finding their LTs while they are staying within themselves, so to speak, and running their whole draft the way they think is best; and teams are finding their RTs either when they reach for a LT prospect and he shifts over, or when they think that a RT is near the final piece they need for a run. Of course, free agency might skew that a little…but then again, it does look like your RTs and LTs were mostly drafted instead of poached. Am I off base here?
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Really I should have broken it down in a final analysis...
comparing the tackles… I was thinking of doing that in a tackles post. Part of why I left it out…
RT’s were drafted on Average by round 2.9. If you take the standard deviation you get ~0.4 as the Round value.
LT’s were drafted on Average by round 4. If you take the standard deviation you get ~1.6 as the Round value.
This suggests to me that RT’s are being taken in the hopes that they could play LT at some point. RT’s were more often than not drafted by their own team. The backup RT’s tend to come from someone else’s team. The LT’s were more often poached off of someone else’s team than the RT’s. Yet the backup LT’s were drafted by the team(except for one).
HMMM… Anyways going by this if Brich isn’t our starter we should sign someone off of the street to be our backup and draft someone to start at RT. Time to let Richardson go or play LT is what this would suggest. Shrugs I was for demoting him…
Go Chiefs!!!!
Heh, I don't know if I agree with you or not...
I’m really not looking at your numbers as a plan or even a suggestion that we should follow in the draft. Rather, I’m looking at it more as a picture of other teams’ draft experiences…
It just doesn’t make sense that teams would pick right tackles higher than left tackles in the draft. Yet that’s what your numbers seem to show. So, assuming that the drafters aren’t doing that on purpose, where are they making their mistakes?
I wonder how many of those backup LT draftees you mention are never-been-starters, and will end up sliding over to another position.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Maybe :)
Failed LT’s fill up the other line spots due to being superior talent, just like failed Centers end up as Guards for a lot of teams
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
The trouble is that the root word of that whole plan is "fail."
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Yep a Draft fail that ended up being somewhat of a success
draft for upside not position?
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
It still just gets me
how Raven’s numbers seem to say that teams discover their LTs almost accidentally quite a bit more often than I thought. And it just blows me away that the average draft position for RTs is significantly higher than that of LTs on these ten teams. I mean, I know the rookie money has finally been somewhat fixed, but that’s probably a lot of wasted cap space right there. I’m not sure what conclusion to draw from that other than there are a lot of mistakes being made.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Those were the "best" 10 Offensive lines
imagine the mistakes on the worst 10 O-lines
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 29, 2011 7:24 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure if you read this below...
If I remove all the first rounders from the RT’s the average only moves by .2. Granted this decreases the sample size, but it also shows that Right tackles are taken slightly after Left Tackles on these teams(Round Value 1.7625)
While I hate to decrease the sample size… this does appear to normalize the data in a manner of which we would expect… The only way to increase the sample size is take this into a longitudinal study (like I had stated in the beginning). I think that this past year was a bit of an anomaly.
Go Chiefs!!!!
That's kinda what I feel about those 1st-round LTs.
It’s where the dominant players tend to reside, but it’s easy to burn that 1st-rounder on a guy who never quite makes it at LT.
Bulaga in GB was their best shot at getting better on OL. Possibly a reach, but not if you’re OK with “Great Guard” as your downside. And starting RT was Bulaga’s downside. And he is (was) a pretty serviceable swing LT, imo. I’m not sure of his injury report this week…
The need for an elite athlete at LT says you go to the well early and often. He has to start against bad-ass big men and bad-ass speed rushers. The issue I have with chasing Mr Goodbar at LT is how often you see teams just taking the BPA at that PON and ending with a wicked case of buyer’s remorse. I’d rather pass on 1st-round OT than let my hopes get in the way of my commonsense. But in a twist of irony, I’m also OK with going for an elite lineman who is NOT a left tackle.
would of ≠ would've
Yeah, I've got "reach" on my brain
because of all the talk around AP the last couple years about drafting a RT in the first round. So I’m probably biased. But damned if Raven’s numbers don’t seem to agree with my prejudice….and by a WHOLE ton bigger margin than I would have thought. Right now, I’m not sure I can trust my own interpretation just because the numbers seem to agree with my inner rant way too much.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
good man
question everything, including yourself … eventually you’ll come back full circle and realize you were right all along
assuming you WERE right all along :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I can never decide where exactly to stick the ottoman, either.
I always seriously consider places like under the kitchen table, the foot of the bed, and Turkey. Probably not the most efficient method for home decorating.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
just don't bother with Feng Shue ...
but do check out the Penn & Teller’s Bullshit on that (and bottled water) … priceless stuff!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Do they still have their Discovery channel show going?
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
dunno .. just got cable back coupla weeks ago after more than a year w/o and haven't had time to check it out
most time online here anyway … other than Discover and History and a few select others, TV is evil and pernicious
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Gotta have some evil, or you wouldn't know what good is.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
so, you're telling me that I have to eat a steaming pile of elephant shit before I can enjoy a nice, thick, juicy steak ...
ummmmmmmmmmmm no
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
You ate baby food at one time, right?
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
no, I had standards
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
But.....were you born with teeth?
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
only the genetic coding for them
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I'm with Ups on this. Contrast can teach you something, but
I don’t think you need to be kicked in the balls in order to appreciate good sex.
would of ≠ would've
Sex is like pizza.
Even when it’s bad, it’s still pretty good.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
if it's good then it isn't bad, iis it? :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Think about some, Why is it a reach when it's the biggest need? In today's
NFL it is imperative to protect the QB, and BRich just don’t. As much as everyone disses Cassel, look at what we played with in his backup. Need is need, and mostly you can plan around middle help on a guy like Seymour, but not on the edge against a Doom or Miller or a Hali type of talent.. Picking DeCastro would be a good thing, but doesn’t address the primary need, which is to protect the edge that BRich doesn’t. It ain’t a reach if it a NEED.
Yes, reach is reach.
What stuck out to me was that it seems like Raven’s teams drafted their RTs HIGHER than their LTs a lot of the time. Left tackles are more talented than right tackles, therefor they SHOULD be drafted earlier. No matter how you slice it, need over BPA or whatever, if you draft your right tackle higher than you draft your left tackle then you did something wrong somewhere in the process.
I gotta disagree about the difference between middle pressure and outside pressure, too. Middle pressure is much harder for a QB to deal with than a speed guy coming around the edge. That’s why tackles are left alone so often, not because they CAN’T be helped, but because it’s more important to seal the inside.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Tackles are usually better athletes.
And ours do pretty good against the speed rushers. Against the bull rushers, they’re mostly just trying to re-direct and sidestep or run the ball just inside or outside the hard-charging big man. In that kind of mind-set, Cassel’s struggled to step up when that hard-charger stays home and waits for him to step up (Justin Smith).
would of ≠ would've
Well McNeil is one that would start if he wasn't injured.
I have Gaither in his place…
If I remove all the first rounders from the RT’s the average only moves by .2. Granted this decreases the sample size, but it also shows that Right tackles are taken slightly after Left Tackles on these teams(Round Value 1.7625).
Go Chiefs!!!!
OK, but if you remove outliers, shouldn't you remove them from both sides of the mean?
Out of curiosity, and not to cause you any more work, but how many first rounders are there amongst your RTs vs your LTs?
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
4 RT compared to 1 LT
and that is not counting Sherrod as a backup RT. There was only UDFA… which you just never know what you get. Removing him from the mix brings the value from ~1.9 to ~1.72 .
Doing the same thing for the UDFA’s of the LT it moves it from 1.7625 to 1.9… granted this should be the earliest round taken. The latest round for a LT and RT to be taken is early in the 5th round.
Go Chiefs!!!!
So a big reason these teams are the "best" is probably because they got really lucky in finding their left tackles.
Like Steve said above, makes me wonder what the same analysis would look like for the ten “worst” teams. Hell, that might be even more interesting to see than your ten best running teams.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I am leaning towards this...
compare the worst and best with each other, then compare how we rank.
This at least would increase the sample size. It just would take PLENTY of time to whip it up.
Go Chiefs!!!!
I can promise one rec in payment :)
And probably a bunch of frivolous comments.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
I think the better teams also do a better job evaluating talent, period.
The bad teams take a QB or OT because they need one, regardless of whether the guy is really all that great.
would of ≠ would've
Well, it's looking like the teams Raven evaluated do that, too, somewhat.
Their lower draft picks are beating out their higher draft picks for the left tackle spot on average.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Yup. It appears the true LTs are more evenly distributed amongst the prospects.
You get the occasional diamond in the rough down low and the occasional bust up high. The picks I don’t like are the ones where a team down in the teens or twenties takes the “best LT on the board,” and the guy was getting by on just being big.
would of ≠ would've
too late to get Waters back, huh?
we should sign someone off of the street
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Is his feet enough fast enough to play RT...
I heard that his natural position was TE though… but he failed at that. If he is a natural TE he has to be fast right?
Go Chiefs!!!!
that whole 2003 line was deceptively agile ... a lot of pulling and shifting back in the day
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
One time around then, we kicked the Ravens' ass,
and they showed RayRay pacing on the sidelines and telling no one in particular that “They double team me every play! Every single play! It’s just not possible! It’s just NOT POSSIBLE!!!” That was frickin beautiful.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
by Brsrkr on Dec 29, 2011 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I remember that!!!
glorious days :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Didn't we put our FB on him every play?
"An atheist is a man who watches a Notre Dame - Southern Methodist University game and doesn't care who wins." - Dwight D. Eisenhower
by electriclight on Dec 30, 2011 6:48 AM CST up reply actions
Heh heh, yeah, T-Rich punked him good.
The thing about that, though, is Baltimore’s defense was specifically designed to keep Lewis clean. They were VERY good at keeping Lewis clean. The clogged up the lanes that linemen and FBs and TEs used to get to the second level better than anybody. But they couldn’t do it against us.
When you gotta go in the lion's den, you don't go quiet. You go in loud, kick the door down and say WHERE IS THE SONUVABITCH. -B. Billick
Rec'd
Though I’m a few days late coming to this post due to holiday travel & sickness, I’m glad I found it.
Great in-depth analysis Ravenhawk! Well-thought out and researched posts are always great to read! After this, you have me even more interested in researching the draft prospects over just skimming before hand, watching the draft and then reading analysis of the players afterwards (my usual MO). Thanks!
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...
Thanks...
I really wouldn’t call it in depth analysis… unless you are talking about the discussion(Great discussion). I’m going to try to do one of these each week for the offensive line. Next week I’ll do one for the weakest passing teams.
After that I might go to running teams(best and worst)… then attempt to break down these by position. Many of the best passing teams also have the best running teams… So we will see where the numbers lead us on all that. Hopefully it will continue some great discussion.
Go Chiefs!!!!
It was far more in-depth than I usually can see, so it was pretty good. :-)
Even if it was only a 1-year statistical group.
The bonus was how it initiated some great discussions in the thread. I really enjoyed reading all of it and look forward to your next posts!
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...

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