Looking At Which Chiefs Might Not Be Back In 2012
by Joel Thorman on Dec 27, 2011 12:26 PM CST
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PrintThis is more of an after-the-season type of post but I've been thinking about it this week (as I try to avoid thinking about the Broncos or Raiders representing the AFC West in the playoffs):
Which Kansas City Chiefs players just played their last game in Arrowhead Stadium as a Chief?
There's a normal rate of roster turnover every year which means a number of players likely won't be back next season. I've taken a look at the roster and grouped the possibilities into three categories: Possible retirement; Last year of the contract and; Surprise cuts.
Possible retirement category: Casey Wiegmann (38), Thomas Jones (33), Kelly Gregg (35), Anthony Becht (34)
I would guess Wiegmann retires after this season. That's the vibe we got when he signed his deal with the Chiefs before the season and at his age I think that's the most likely result right now. (Note: It's funny I write "at his age" as if 38 is really old, which it is in the NFL but not the real world.) Jones may very well follow him to retirement but we did hear him recently open the possibility of playing again so he's up in the air. Jones could also fit in the "Last year of his deal" category. Gregg signed a one-year deal prior to the season and he's 35 years old which, again, is very old for the NFL. And Becht was considering a career in the media before the Chiefs picked him up this year so that might be the route he goes.
Last year of his deal category: Dwayne Bowe, Brandon Carr, Wallace Gilberry, Le'Ron McClain
Bowe's rookie contract is expiring after this season and we don't know what will happen. A long-term contract or the franchise tag could be in order if the Chiefs decide to keep him. Carr is another long-term contract candidate but we haven't heard any rumblings of a deal getting done. Hopefully it does at some point. Gilberry signed a one-year deal prior to the season and we didn't see the production (or playing time) out of him this year which makes you wonder where he stands moving forward. And McClain is finishing up the one-year deal he signed earlier this year.
Surprise cuts category: ???
I'm not really sure who to put here yet but every season there are surprise cuts when free agency hits. I wouldn't be surprised to see some this year. The draft could affect what happens so the Chiefs probably don't even know who these surprise cuts will be.
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Who should go...
Palko, Cassel, Weigmann, Jones, Becht, Piscatelli, and maybe Richardson.
Who am I missing?
When you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail.
Jamaal above all. #25 ftw.
CHIEFS WILL!
by NJChieffan16 on Dec 27, 2011 12:31 PM CST via mobile reply actions
you really think cassel should be cut?
with his contract? even if you dont want him as a starter you need to keep him as a back up… have you not learned anything during this 2011 football season?
2012... the year the Royals finish above .500
by Somewhere Over Dwayne Bowe on Dec 27, 2011 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's one expensive backup
When you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail.
Jamaal above all. #25 ftw.
CHIEFS WILL!
by NJChieffan16 on Dec 27, 2011 12:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
its better than still paying his contract when he plays for someone else if we cut him...
2012... the year the Royals finish above .500
by Somewhere Over Dwayne Bowe on Dec 27, 2011 12:42 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
If we cut him we only owe him 5 mil. Or am i mistaken?
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
Not Even That, From What I Understand
The $5 million is base salary only, I believe. That’s not guaranteed. The signing bonus is guaranteed and that was counted against the cap the first two seasons.
by UCrawford on Dec 27, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
My guess is that Pioli will try and trade him and see what we can get and
if it’s not at least a 3rd then id say just forget about it.
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
I Doubt It'll Be A Third
Orton is a better QB and Denver couldn’t even get a 4th round pick for the guy from teams desperate for a QB.
Then how in the hell could sd get a 3rd for
whitehurst? I know Cassel sucks but i dont think he is worse than Charlie is…
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 1:01 PM CST up reply actions
Because Pete Carroll Is Stupid About Player Acquisitions
He’s the same guy who signed Tarvaris Jackson to a long-term contract after trading for Whitehurst.
I think most of the stupid GMs already have their solutions at QB for this year.
Tavaris Jackson
Got 2 years, $8 mil. Hardly a crippling or terrible contract.
Jackson’s stats are almost identical to Orton on the season also.
You're Correct
My bad on the contract.
I still don’t see them going after Orton when they have a cheaper, similar option already playing for them. I thought that if Matt Barkley ended up going pro they’d definitely be in the hunt for him on draft day, though. I doubt they signed Jackson to be anything more than a stopgap…which is all Orton would be.
I could see Sea bundling picks for RG3
But I could also see them playing things out with Jackson/Whitehurst and seeing what happens next year.
I agree, I doubt they’ll be in on Orton.
If those GM's are so stupid,
how do they “already have their solutions at QB?”
It is time to anoint the Stanzi. He is The One.
Miami was offering a 4th rounder
Denver wanted a 2nd or 3rd. Which is why a deal didn’t get done.
by kcsno56 on Dec 27, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
His gauranteed money was front loaded through this year
Chiefs fan in shock after week1
by Tony Perkins on Dec 27, 2011 8:03 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
We Wouldn't Owe Him Much Money
His contract was front-loaded so all of the guaranteed money was paid upfront the first two years. It was pointed out at the time that Cassel’s contract was basically a two year deal that the Chiefs could bail from without much trouble after that.
If that was Pioli's initial thought then he is pretty damn smart...
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
It Really Was A Pretty Good Contract
The Chiefs were so far below the cap that year and the next that it made sense to front-load it. It was a fairly low-risk deal for the Chiefs.
If I'm not mistake...
he really doesn’t make a ton in salary anymore, most of it was up front.
by polodude017 on Dec 27, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He's Only Making About $5.5 Million Next Season
Pricey for a backup, but if we keep Orton I don’t think he’ll be making so much that it’ll be a cap-killer. Basically, we’d have a B- as a starter and a C+ as a backup…which is not a horrible situation to have.
by UCrawford on Dec 27, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hmmm
If we have roster space, I think Richardson would be good tackle depth
by Chiefs fan in ST Louis on Dec 27, 2011 12:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Definitely
Barry Richardson and Palko. Cassel would be a good backup. Piscatelli is a bubble guy depending on what happens to McGraw. Not wild about McGraw anymore either but when he’s out the D secondary drops off. Gregg and Weigmann need to go. They did ok every once in a while but this isn’t show friends. Becht is nearing the end but I would like to see him play one more season to see if this year was a fluke. Jones can stay but as the third string guy and he and Battle can fight it out.
Palko needs to go but...
Richardson I can live with keeping around as a back-up RT. Draft a RT in the 1st round and that player can also be the back-up LT if God for bid Albert went down… then you slide Richardson back into the RT spot for insurance.
Then again the Chiefs have enough coin to go out and improve on Richardson for a back-up OT as well.
I'd keep Gregg at least through training camp
If it looks like Powe can step up and be our full time NT then cut Gregg.
Check out my blog on software development:
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by Scaryclouds on Dec 27, 2011 2:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
They need somebody else.
This years Draft and Free Agency is loaded with great running backs that would be able to share carries with charles. I think Jones should be gone, and they pick up somebody like Cedric Bneson, Ryan Grtant, Tolbert, even Peyton hillis (who are all supposed to be FA’s) and then they have Charles, Someone new, Battle, and Mccluster. thatd be a great running game and itisnt too unrealistic.
by AaronMannicci on Dec 28, 2011 10:45 PM CST up reply actions
For The Chiefs
I’m betting Jones hangs on for another year or two as a complementary back…either here or somewhere else. Weigmann is probably done. Gregg might stick around for another year…who knows?
For the free agents, I’m betting we franchise Bowe and attempt to sign Carr long-term. Don’t know whether or not we’ll be able to pull it off…Carr can probably get ridiculously overpaid on the free agent market this year by a better team (Niners, perhaps…they might be losing Carlos Rogers) and I don’t think he’ll be worth what he’ll get. I’d like to see Gilberry come back and hopefully they’ll be able to make it work. Le’Ron McClain is just okay…if they keep him, fine, if not, oh well.
Surprise Cuts
I’m hoping it would be Tyson Jackson, but I doubt it.
I would not be surprised to see Glenn Dorsey get cut. He’s making 4.3 million next season and he’s simply not worth it in the position they’ve got him playing in. I think he’d be an outstanding 4-3 DT, but instead he’s a 3-4 DE and it’s not a good fit. If it’s a choice between Dorsey and Jackson, I’d much rather the Chiefs keep Jackson, but then Jackson is a Pioli draft pick (and a “prototype” 3-4 DE, even though all that means is that he doesn’t look like he should suck) and Dorsey isn’t.
You'd cut both of the team's starting DEs?
I think both are doing much better than you give them credit for. Our run D has been quite good, no?
I DO however, think Dorsey might be traded before the draft…otherwise he’s back next year for the final year of his contract. It’s not like he’d be a cap casualty….
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
No, I Said That I Think Dorsey Might Get Cut
Not that I want him to get cut. He’s in the last year of his contract and he’s overpaid for his production level. I would not be surprised to see him get traded or released. But I also wouldn’t be surprised to see him stay, considering how badly Pioli does in free agency.
Tyson Jackson, on the other hand, I would LOVE to see get cut. I don’t think it’ll happen, though.
Jackson has improved every year
He hasn’t been an impact player in terms of sacks, but I think he’s a solid DE at the line. The only issue I have with him is that his pay exceeds his production, but that’s due to the stupid structure of the draft.
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
seriously
Let’s call Mr. Tyson Jackson for what he is: A bust.
When you draft a guy at No. 3 overall, you are expecting an impact player, someone who can turn your franchise around.
Pioli whiffed on Jackson. Big time.
Yes, he has improved slighly from his rookie season. But NFL insiders will tell you that a player makes the biggest leap from year 1 to year 2. To justify that No.3 pick, he should be playing like DE Justin Smith of the 49ers. Now that is a 3-4 DE!
by michaelaglover on Dec 27, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
Just so I'm clear...
We should be comparing our 2gap strongside DE to a 1gap DE who also plays in subsets to rush the passer from DT spot?
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
It fits glover's argument, so yes. Evidently.
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
Now if he said Ziggy Hood who plays the same position and was drafted in the same round we'd have something to talk about.
Although the conversation wouldn’t be long.
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 2:13 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe while we're comparing completely different players to decide who's "better"
We can compare TJax to Raji?
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
I prefer to compare Raji to Matt Stafford, personally.
BJ needs to work on his short-to-intermediate throws, ye gawds his accuracy is awful. I dunno how the Pack D expects to move the ball.
Stafford takes on two blockers like a champ, for what it’s worth.
…wait, what?
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Well it is Matt's natural position.
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
I Always Saw It As More Of A JaMarcus Russell Position
Assuming his move to offensive tackle didn’t work out. :)
Russell has the feet, but I worry about his hand punch.
You’ve got to coach that guy to treat all blockers like US Marshall’s busting a delivery of Purple Drank, you know?
Turn that negative into a positive, lol…
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
I Remember His Last Season With The Raiders
He was right around 300 pounds and laid down a block for one of his running backs just outside of the tackle. The commentators said it was the best play they’d seen from him in two years. :)
by UCrawford on Dec 27, 2011 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So, you're saying he has the feet for the ZBS.
In the words of USA Prime Credit’s Peggy…“I Like.”
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 6:41 PM CST up reply actions
I'm all for Pioli taking wacko fliers on ...
being able to rehabilitate Jon Jolly and Justin Harrell. Well, wr have ta wait for Jolly to get out of the pokey for a season or two. But Harrell just needs to get over his injuries, and get in shape. Or … howz bout former Pats Terrence Wheatley and Chad Jackson? Lots of el cheapo reclamation projects – like Nuttinator and Amon Gordon – floating around like flotsam on the sea.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
Yes to Jolly...he's a man who got screwed by Goodell's system.
I am all for law-breakers serving their time, don’t get me wrong…but his situation was a lot like that of the kids I taught on the Northside of DSM a few years back. Take them away from a positive thing, and they’ll find two negatives to fill the void.
Jackson—will he work on routes? That’s my question there. He never seemed to be able to run the route or catch the football at the same time…kind of key for a wideout, right? :)
Harrell is an injury risk from hell, but if he’s recovered up he’d be a great camp invite. Wheatley’s being rehabilitated by the Titans as we speak.
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 6:40 PM CST up reply actions
YA. I know Wheatley has the Titans
giving him a shot, but I doubt it lasts into next season? Of course, if Romeo/Pioli thought he was salvageable, then he was there for the taking back in Sept. About Jackson – if he can catch, then he can burn down the sidelines for the bomb from RG3 … hey a guy can still dream until the draft … before his heart is hurt again! :+)
WOW! That’s a VERY, very bleeding heart opinion about Jolly. I knew there was some reason I liked you??? Howz about Gholston? ;=)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 7:02 PM CST up reply actions
I'm equal part heartless conservative and bleeding-heart liberal.
Jolly is a man with an addiction who was removed from the one thing keeping him sober…which was Green Bay football.
I think suspensions or a “ban hammer” of any kind need to be used, but used appropriately. There looked to be more going on with that situation, that’s all I’m saying.
Gholston…is evidently a nice kid who doesn’t have the game. If Sexy Rexy can’t get the most out of him, I’m not sure even RAC could.
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 7:18 PM CST up reply actions
How dare you counter nonsensical arguments made with "facts"!!!
Do we go fetal and beg for mercy? Or do we pick up that broken piece of pipe laying on the ground and come up swinging? I choose pipe.
Sober (again) since January 10th, 2011.
by nateforchiefs on Dec 27, 2011 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
Jackson not a bust
34 DE is a mundane position. He’s asked to eat blockers not sack the QB. He absorbs OL for the OLBs to rush and plays the run well. If you want to complain about taking a 3.4 DE that high, okay I can hear that, but its not an issue with Jackson himself. Justin Smith is not fair comparison. SF runs a 1 gap scheme that asks him to rush the passer. Jackson is almost never asked to.
The Main Issue I Have With Him
Is that he isn’t B.J. Raji…who the Chiefs SHOULD have drafted with that pick.
hindsight is 20/20 my friend
I think Jackson is what the Chiefs hoped he would be… a SOLID DE that is stout against the run, and can tie up blockers.
He’s been doing that at a high level this season, and, to my eye, HAS been the best DLineman on an improving front 7
by stagdsp on Dec 27, 2011 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
shame on them
if pioli was thinking that about jackson when he drafted him, then that’s a reason why this franchise isnt one of the elite teams in the nfl and on its way to another losing season with pioli at the wheel.
why would you draft a guy No.3 overall to not be an impact player, to not rush the passer? That’s some effed up thinking.
by michaelaglover on Dec 27, 2011 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
That's not really Jacksons fault and definitely doesn't make him a bust either.
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
It's Not Jackson's Fault He's Limited, No
But it doesn’t mean we have to ignore that he’s being paid far more than he’s worth as a player. Or that I have to be unhappy that we’ve STILL got a hole at NT since not drafting Raji…or Terrence Cody.
Correction
Or that I have to be happy that we’ve STILL got a hole at NT since not drafting Raji…or Terrence Cody
How is he limited?
Statistically and impactfully, based on his job on the field, he ranks as one of the best 3-4 RDEs in the league. Anyone who was picked in the top 20 of the draft prior to the new CBA is being overpaid so that isn’t much of an argument either. Raji and Cody both had major red flags coming out of college so they wouldve been even bigger risks. Cody still has red flags and Raji has had one good season of play and it wasn’t this season.
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
LDE*
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
NT's are just minor role players in Crennel's hybrid 3-4 D's now.
If he stays with running Nickel and Dime packages more than 50% of the time. But of course, the other 50% (or less) that he needs one, he’s never really had a really stud one. And, if had a REALLY stud NT, just might he be tempted to use him in his nickel sets, too???
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 6:27 PM CST up reply actions
Who asks a 3-4 defensive end to be a pass-rusher, anyway?
Even in one-gap systems, like Smith’s SF scheme, the end’s main job is to tie up blockers and make tackles close to the LOS.
If you’re mad about that pick not being used on Orakpo/Raji/etc, that’s fine…but blaming Jackson for not being one of those guys doesn’t make any sense. It’s like me ordering the McChicken and being pissed that it’s not a double cheeseburger, you know?
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
What if I want a Double McChickeneeseburger?
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 2:14 PM CST up reply actions
Ahh, the heart attack special (aka "The John Candy")...
You’ll probably have to special order it. Speak slowly, you’ll confuse the kid up front.
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
Still doesn't make him a bust...
Jackson has been everything he should have been now. The only stink most have about him now is where we still drafted him spot wise. As a 5/7-Tech DE he has been quite productive.
Cap Casualty
It’s not like he’d be a cap casualty….
He could be only if Pioli signs a high priced free agent, but considering that Pioli has yet to sign a high-priced free agent I doubt we’ll have to worry about it. Someone else on the site suggested that Pioli is too much of a deliberate control freak to ever be a big player in the free agent market because that requires speed as much as salesmanship. Can’t say I disagree with that assessment.
If anything is clear at this point, it's that Pioli will never be a big player in free agency
For better or worse, other than Breaston (and arguably Lilja), all of his FA signings have been for formerly good players near the end of their career, to serve as stopgaps until a better player can be drafted. I don’t think he even attempts to go after the ‘big’ free agents. I assume that will continue this year, and I’m okay with it, AS LONG AS he’s able to retain Carr & Bowe. I won’t be so forgiving if either of those guys leave & we are $10m below the cap to start next season.
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
Tyson Jackson
It would be a big mistake to cut him, he is the best 3-4 end we have on the roster..
by Johannes Josefsen on Dec 27, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Except For Gilberry And Dorsey
I don’t know where you’re getting this “best end” idea, but it’s not backed up by his numbers. The guy was an afterthought his first two years here and he was basically just a warm body this season. The only reason I doubt he’s leaving anytime soon is that Pioli was stupid enough to sign him until 2014 so he’s probably too much of a cap hit to take.
It is backed by his numbers...
Both Dorsey and TJax are top 20 tacklers for NFL defensive linemen, at 8th and 17th overall. Dorsey is 3rd among NFL 34 DEs in tackles, Jackson is 7th.
Outright cutting Dorsey and Jackson would be the dumbest shit this organization has EVER done. They both have trade value, and honestly, Dorsey probably ought to be traded. He’s excellent trade bait, with his contract almost up.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
Again, I Wasn't Suggesting They Cut Dorsey
Joel asked who could be a “surprise cut” and I suggested it might be Dorsey only because he’s not a great fit at his position and he’s in the last year of his contract. I wasn’t making an assessment on whether it was a good or bad idea…just that it might happen if the Chiefs decide to pinch pennies. I think Dorsey’s been good, but not great and those are the kind of guys who often get cut if they have big salaries.
Sorry, I don’t buy that Tyson Jackson is any good. That said, I don’t see him getting cut because there are three more years on his contract.
And just because you don't buy that doesn't mean he is good.
You’ve been around far too long to not read Kalo’s defensive line reports about him.
Gotta disagree.
If Dorsey isn’t traded, they re-sign him. No way they just let him walk.
Jackson is easily the most improved DE from a year ago. I don’t know why you insist he’s no good… his stat numbers disagree with you, what with being 17th overall for all NFL D Linemen, and 7th overall for 34 DEs. Also consider that the two LBs that play on his side – Houston and DJ are having good to great years.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
I really doubt Dorsey will be re-signed after next season
that’s why I hope he’s traded before the draft. His skills are wasted in our defense, he’d be much smarter to go sign a 1-year deal with a 4-3 team, show what he’s capable of, and then get a good contract the following year.
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
Yeah...
He’s not going to become a FA and sign a 1 year deal. Too much of a risk. One injury could ruin his value for the rest of his career.
And his skills aren’t wasted with us. He’s quietly had a really good year (again, he’s 3rd in tackles for all NFL 34 DEs, only 5 behind Haloti Ngata). He’s solid as a 34 DE, but could probably do more damage at his natural DT position. That’s one of his biggest selling points – he’s versatile enough to play in either system.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
UC, your numbers are circa 2009...not 2011.
Jackson was easily our best end this season…Dorsey got effing owned most of the time. He couldn’t shake his blockers, struggled to occupy two men at once (so he usually didn’t), and hardly sniffed the backfield at all.
The extra weight (and emergence of Allen Bailey) led to Gilberry’s riding the pine…and that man got his ass beat as a run stopper this year. He’s a 3-4 pass rusher in nickel sets only, if he stays.
Love your posts, lots of respect for you and all that…but it looks like you’re giving an assessment that’s two years old, and doesn’t resemble the 2011 product on the field, UC.
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 2:16 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'll agree somewhat with these guys about T-Jax.
OTOH, I understand what you’re saying about him, as well. When you spend a 3rd overall pick on a DE, it’d better be the next friggin’ Richard FREAKING Seymour! Really, its just finally this season his play has been average. He hasn’t done anything more special than several 2nd – and even 3rd – rounder 3-4 DE’s have been doing already drafted prior to 2009. And a handful from 2010 – and even a couple of his 1st rd. peers from this last draft – already have just as good a stats and play. 2009 was just a horrible draft class; and even triply so for D’linemen. I’ve heard Pioli tried to trade back, but couldn’t. If so?, that was VERY unfortunate.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't cry if they let Gilberry walk.
Its the potential loss of Sabby that’s got me in tears.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 6:34 PM CST up reply actions
LOL, if they cut D-Wash at the same time you'd have to be sedated, right?
A sad, sad day for football in KC…I know.
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 6:42 PM CST up reply actions
At least 50% of this picture better be gone
I don't have a catchy, catch phrase.
by dbakerku on Dec 27, 2011 12:34 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
work the phones
trade cassel and dorsey
cut jones, sabby, urban, gregg
resign bowe, carr, mcclai
by Mitul V. Patel on Dec 27, 2011 12:39 PM CST reply actions
i thought Lilja signed a 2yr deal?
If so he would be a fa as well, right?
by Huston09 on Dec 27, 2011 12:42 PM CST via mobile reply actions
One More Season
He’s making about $2 million. I guess if the Chiefs get a good young guard he could find himself in the “surprise cut” category.
But he's played two years and I think Huston is right that he signed a two-year deal.
Shouldn’t he be a FA.
by polodude017 on Dec 27, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
Would be a mistake to cut him.
Can play either guard spot, and not terribly expensive.
Would like to see his position upgraded, but he’s a very solid backup. Exactly what we didn’t have this year, quality depth.
I Think Lilja Is Okay
Just saying under the category of “surprise” cuts that it’s usually players in the last year of a contract or players who are getting paid well above their performance level who get the axe when that time comes around. I don’t think Lilja should be cut, though.
I expect Lilja to play next season...
Much like what the Chiefs did with Hudson and Asamoah, they will draft a OG that will take over for Lilja after next season. Weigmann gave Hudson a year to groom, much like Waters gave Asamoah a year to groom. In a perfect world we hope to see someone like Zeitler from Wisconsin drop to the 2nd round and we draft him to be the future LG after one more year of Lilja.
I dont know
Why Carr would try and get paid so much. He isn’t a #1 Corner and even though he is talented, he is nowhere near Flowers, imo. Try and resign Carr first, then franchise Bowe for a 1st and 3rd. Hopefully we can get em both back, but if a team wants to give up those picks for Bowe then be my guest.
Supply And Demand
This year the FA cornerback market basically comes down to Carlos Rogers, Cortland Finnegan and Carr and there are plenty of teams looking to upgrade. Carr isn’t a CB1 talent-wise, but this year it’s going to be very possible for him to get paid like one. He’s younger than Rogers and Finnegan to start with.
Well id say good luck to Carr if he takes off then.
Because i think the reason why he has been improving so much as of late is because of RAC
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
There Are Other Good Coaches Out There
If he were to sign with San Francisco, I suspect their defensive coordinator would put him to good use. Their defense was really outstanding this year. Didn’t allow a 100 yard rusher or a rushing TD until last week.
True, and i think SF would do him well but i dont think he will achieve as much as he will
with staying in KC. I feel like if he were to be the #1 Corner on a team, he wont get picked on as much and show what he really has.
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
He'd be an idiot not to try to get paid so much.
We NEED him. If we want to play great defense it sure would help having two #1 corner caliber players. I think Carr is #1 caliber. I keep hearing something about this being a “passing league” Better have some guys to guard receivers.
by dwil2009 on Dec 27, 2011 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I feel like the person we NEED more, Pioli will try and franchise them for a 1st and 3rd.
And lock the other one up. It would be a huge blow to lose both players next year for next to nothing.
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
Lilja
can stay as back up. Same with Richardson, only backup.
The starting line should be:
Albert/Draftpick/Hudson/Asomoah/Draftpick OR trade up and draft Kalil —> Kalil/Albert/Hudson/Asomoah/FA
by Mitul V. Patel on Dec 27, 2011 12:44 PM CST reply actions
Updgrades
We need upgrades and/or depth in a lot of places. Richardson might be able to stay as a backup RT but we need a much more dependable starter. Is Maneri the guy? We don’t know. After one good and one not so good performance it’s hard to tell if Orton needs to stay as the short term starter with Cassel as the overpaid backup. We need a solid #2 RB. Battle played like a solid #3 but neither he or Jones seemed like a viable #2 this year. And Rashard Langford has looked lost in the defense in most of the games he has played so our secondary depth has to be another concern that needs addressed. I know we’re getting Berry back but what happens if he gets hurt again? I would love to see the Chiefs continue to develop players like Bailey and Hudson. Is anyone else here over the DMC experiment?
I think Mccluster is a great weapon in space
With a better QB and charles back I think he will be a great addition…we don’t have a chance last week without a big catch and run from mccluster
Arrowhead pride addict
by groundedchevy on Dec 27, 2011 1:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You mean the DMC experiment that has accumulated 758 offensive yards and 604 return yards?
Including a 49 yard reception on the TD drive that tied the score against OAK?
Nope, I’m not done with DMC.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
He should be running some
fly routes…
Breaston Albert Lilja Wieg Aso Rich Pope Bowe Orton Baldwin
McC
With this lineup the other team would probably be in a nickle. If you get man coverage with McC motion out of the backfield. If you motion him ot the right and have Baldwin run a 7 yard post while McC runs an out and up… Does anyone remember how easliy Charles caught 20+ yard passes on out and up routes? Unless McC has a hard time tracking the ball in the air I dont know why he isnt running those routes that JC use to run…
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
Ah man
it auto fixed my setup… Bowe and Breaston on the left with Breaston in the slot. Pope on the line right off the RT. Baldwin on the outside. McC would motion in between Pope and Baldwin.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
No Moeaki??
Max: Two days ago, I saw a vehicle that would haul that tanker. You want to get out of here? You talk to me.
That was this years lineup
Just replace Pope with Moeaki.
I thought they would use him more in the motion out of the backfield once CJ went out. It has been a real shame how they limit him with draws/screens… Even my WIFE can call the play now when he is on the field. She has only been watching KC for 2 years! How sad is that…
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
exactly
if they would just use him the right way, like screen passes or even as a slot receiver sometime, not hand it off and run up the middle
I know..
I bet DMC is thinking WTF every time they call the play for him to run it up the middle!! Poor guy!
Max: Two days ago, I saw a vehicle that would haul that tanker. You want to get out of here? You talk to me.
Casey can stay if he wants to be a back up. Jones won’t retire, but needs to. I was really excited about the Gregg signing, but it’s been a waste. I like Becht to stick around another year. I think he really enjoyed playing again, and didn’t get beat up too much.
Maybe a waste in that we finally had a legitimate front 3 and our offense couldn't score points?
We don’t seem to be able to get both sides of the ball clicking at the same time.
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
If that's how Gregg is a waste I can agree, lol.
I can’t fathom where the hate for our front 3 is coming from. Statistically they’re one of the best in the NFL, and the LBs behind them are all having good to great years.
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
I expected Gregg to help more on the pass rush.
I don’t see a whole lot of improvement there. Plus, did you see that man in all white? Embarrassing…
I really enjoyed when Becht pretty much tackled Battle in the Pittsburgh game...
We’re fine on the TE positon. With Moeaki coming back, Becht will hit the road.
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldnt say fine
We need a second quality tight end because oconnell, pope and becht are not answers. We need another TE that has good blocking skills and can catch the ball.
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions
Am i the only one who wants Pope to stay...?
I think Moeaki, pope, and a late round TE would do fine..
by Wrestler189s on Dec 27, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
meh
I could take or leave Pope….
he was probably a Haley-guy, so he might be more vulnerable to be cut now.
I would love Moeaki and a top-3-round-draft pick to be the “starting TEs” next season… O’Connell is fine for a backup
I like P.Lutzenkirchen from Auburn, and he's projected 4th round.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
O'Connell is fine for the cut list, imo
I’d take Pope over him, and I’m no big Pope fan. O’Connell is the one who hasn’t been active since RAC took over.
Pope as a 3rd TE is very solid.
My guess is, we don’t take a top 3 round pick at TE, maybe a 5th or 6th, and we roll with Moeaki, Pope and rookie or FA.
Pope has some talent
But damn does be get a lot of penalties. He is as to be not only our most penalized player, but by far the most penalized player.
Check out my blog on software development:
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by Scaryclouds on Dec 27, 2011 3:33 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah I wouldn't say were fine either.
We need quality depth at several positions because of injury concerns and TE is one of them. I’m ok with L.Pope as a back up for whoever we get that good enough to back up Moeaki:P. We also need another quality guy to back our Safeties up and it wouldn’t hurt to have another guy to back up Charles. I’d be fine with addressing TE/RB/S through the draft or the FA market but they have to be better than what we’ve got now.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Check NCAA Basketball
I’m sure we can find a couple big power forwards like Jimmy Graham and Tony G :)
Max: Two days ago, I saw a vehicle that would haul that tanker. You want to get out of here? You talk to me.
my hope
Re-Sign: ALL (Bowe, McClain, Carr, Gilberry)
Retire: ALL (Casey, TJ, Gregg, Becht)
CUT: Piscitelli, Palko
That’d be a fantastic start to the offseason…
by stagdsp on Dec 27, 2011 1:17 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Yep.
My only disagreement might be to bring Gregg back for another year. Just in case…
"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.
by Tomahawk29 on Dec 27, 2011 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, I didn't hate how he played this year
I’m just guessing he retires…
I’m excited to see Powe out there, and I have faith that Romeo can plug-n-play a journeyman D-Lineman if needed (See: Smith and Gordon)
Gregg
is a big meatball when he runs hehe
Max: Two days ago, I saw a vehicle that would haul that tanker. You want to get out of here? You talk to me.
totally agree, stag
now get outta my head, there isn’t room for …
oh wait, never mind … enjoy you stay! :-)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I will be pissed if we don’t resign McClain.
by tomahawk44 on Dec 27, 2011 1:18 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I'm pissed off that he didn't get used more, especially on short yardage situations.
He did rush for like 900 yards one year for the Ravens.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
He should have gotten a lot of carries that Jones did
Hey Tebow, which god is helping you win? Apollo, Ares, Atena, Demeter, Kronos, Zeus, Brahma, Ganesha, Gauri, Hanuman, etc.? Shut up, play and lose.
I agree
On the 4th and inch play against Broncos, I felt giving it to McClain was the second best play they could have done ( first was the QB sneak of course). Giving it to Battle over McClain didnt make sense. McClain seems like he has a little more fight in him then Battle.Another thing I like about McClain is his energy. Guy seems to really love what he is doing and never once did I see him look frustrated for lack of carries. That energy alone seems like a good resigning
by TheScreenName on Dec 27, 2011 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
Completley agree
I thought they would either sneak, or give it to McClain. Either way, the snap should have happened immediatley.
Hey Tebow, which god is helping you win? Apollo, Ares, Atena, Demeter, Kronos, Zeus, Brahma, Ganesha, Gauri, Hanuman, etc.? Shut up, play and lose.
Agreed. I think that is why Haley got fired. He misused the entire offensive personnel.
1) never used McClain as a blocker, short yardage or on 3rd down.
2) never played Gaither even when Richardson was horrible.
3) never would use Urban.
4) never used Baldwin’s skills to open the offense.
5) did not start Orton vs the Bears.
6) never played Hudson.
7) play calling was too simple and predictable.
by NFL season ticket holder on Dec 27, 2011 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
Agree on the retirements
You MIGHT see Jones come back again, but unlikely.
They would be fools not to sign McClain, Bowe and Carr. In fact, they should have already signed Bowe and Carr which is what makes me think they may not.
Orton will be gone, Cassel will be under center, Stanzi will be third on the depth and I imagine, after this year, they’ll sign at least a serviceable back-up.
Hey Tebow, which god is helping you win? Apollo, Ares, Atena, Demeter, Kronos, Zeus, Brahma, Ganesha, Gauri, Hanuman, etc.? Shut up, play and lose.
I would rather have Orton under center
and see what we can get for Cassel. Have Stanzi 2nd string and get someone other then Palko as 3rd
by TheScreenName on Dec 27, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
this is the most idiotic thing they could do and would alienate thousands and thousands of fans across Chiefs Nation
Orton will be gone, Cassel will be under center
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I know ... would also prove plenty to me in terms of Pioli being "the problen" instead of "the solution"
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Curious...
What do you think your opinion of Cassel was exactly one year ago today?
it was that he's made progress and that we shouldn't cut him immediately, but rather give him another year to see if he continues to make progress
what we saw early this season, coupled with the huge difference between Cassel and Orton in just a couple of games, makes me realize even more that Cassel is NOT the guy we want moving forward
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I won't argue with you that Cassel isn't an elite QB
I will argue that there is very little difference between Cassel and Orton. Neither are the answer.
Arguing over which one is better gets in the way of the bigger issue, which is that a real upgrade is what is needed.
I know, I know, the eye test…your eye test has changed though. It changed after watching Orton a 2nd week. And it would change after watching him a whole year.
and I had TOTALLY ripped Cassel early LAST year ... then agreed to lighten up and give him a couple of months
and in that time he DID improve and the team DID win, we all know what happened … in the end I at some crow about it, but …
again, seeing Orton here and comparing the two … Orton any day
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
There is a reason that we have stats
It’s so we can look at numbers and be objective. You are influenced by being ‘sick’ of Cassel. Hell, so am I.
You would eventually become ‘sick’ of Orton. I know this by looking at the stats and I remember…what everyone else seems to have forgotten my opinion of Orton before we got him, which was that he was an avg. NFL starter.
Again, would I rather have Orton than Cassel…maybe. Probably, even, but it’s very slight, and I know it is mostly based on being ‘sick’ of Cassel, not facts.
So I won’t be pissed at Pioli for being an egomaniac if we bring back Cassel and let Orton go (especially since he’s signed already and rather cheap). I will be pissed if we don’t do anything to address the long term answer at QB, which neither of them are.
Agreed
I think Orton is a better bet for production over 2-3 years than Cassel, but not enough that I think the Chiefs should put off the search for a good QB for that long.
I think he's a better bet
But only very marginally so.
I don’t think the team can afford to wait 2-3 years to find a franchise QB. They have the talent to be on an elite level in 2 years with a franchise QB. Trick is finding one, and that is no easy task.
I Know That Almost Nobody Will Agree With Me About This
But if the Chiefs were to do a Ricky Williams-style deal and trade every pick in their draft for the top selection so they could get Andrew Luck, I wouldn’t complain about it.
That’s how much I’d love to see this team get a franchise QB.
Honestly, I don't think that would be enough.
There has been talk that the pick could be worth 3 #1’s. That’s worth a hell of a lot more than all our picks in this years draft…
That said, I’d be on board as well.
I would also be fine with getting to maybe #3 and take RG3. That would cost a hell of a lot as well, though.
I'm Less Sold On RGIII
Not because he wasn’t a great player in college, but because I’m very leery of Art Briles or Houston QBs. I can’t name one who’s been good in the pros.
I tried responding to this argument you made a few weeks ago
I don’t think the offense makes nearly as big of a difference as the player does.
Because Kevin Kolb isn’t a franchise QB, doesn’t sway my opinion on RG3. The player is the key.
Why isn’t it possible Briles has just never had an elite QB before this year?
I wonder about that myself...
But I’m willing to give Griffin the benefit of the doubt (especially if he ends up here by some act of God).
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 6:45 PM CST up reply actions
To continue...
Is Aaron Rodgers, Aaron Rodgers b/c of Jeff Tedford?
If he plays for Briles, is he going to be where he is today…personally, I say yes.
True
But then David Klingler and Andre Ware looked like elite athletes coming out of Houston until people figured out they were system QBs.
Granted, finding a great NFL QB is as much luck as science.
I think its far more likely Klingler and Ware just weren't that good
Not that they were ‘ruined’ by the system they played in, in college.
Again, I don’t think if Favre had gone to Houston and Klinger to S. Miss, Klinger would be the one re-retiring 5 times and have most of the NFL QB records, and Favre the bust.
(Side note, the QB’s in the Ware draft were horrendous. I remember reading an article about it at some point—that also happens sometimes).
I Don't Think Anyone Would Trade 3 #1s for Luck
Two, definitely. Two plus a 2nd or a 3rd and 4th, probably. But three #1 picks? I don’t see it.
I do.
I don’t think we’ll get to find out, b/c I assume Indy will make sure they lose this week…
But if they don’t, I could absolutely see a franchise like the Redskins giving up 3 #1’s.
I think this is the week we get some serious controversy
May also be the week that we look back at that caused the NFL to institute a lottery.
Irsay has been way more open than he should’ve, probably, in talking about Luck (without actually saying his name). This is the week I think the Colts truly ‘suck for luck.’ They’ll do it by pulling vets, and I think it will be ugly, and obvious.
It will need to be, b/c the Jags are terrible.
What would be highly entertaining, and certainly cause a collapse of the system, would be if the Jags tried to match this suckitude and did the same. Do I think this will happen…no, but I would love it, b/c I am in favor of a lottery.
So the coach who is on the hot seat
is going to tank the game, for a higher draft pick? Don’t you think he has more important things to worry about?
I've used this exact argument against other people, and it's completely valid.
I think he’ll only do it if he is assured he has his job back.
I Think Indy May Do That
And I think that drafting Luck won’t help them. Polian has been running that team into the ground the last 3-4 years. Bad drafting, driving off their OC, their head of player personnel (so his son can take over), their OL coach. I think that’s a franchise in trouble.
Yes, but as you've seen, a franchise QB can overcome a lot
If Luck is that guy…
Or If He's Not
It’ll cripple the franchise that trades for him. Not to mention that the Colts will still have to resolve the Peyton situation if they want to draft Luck themselves.
It doesn't cripple an organization near as much as it used too
Luck will make, literally half as much money as Bradford. That’s a big deal. Teams can now whiff on picks at the top of the draft without the devastating repercussions of a couple years ago.
Completely possible that I'm wrong.
I just think it could happen, and that it could lead to changing to a lottery.
I Don't Agree With The Lottery
It certainly hasn’t brought parity to the NBA. If you go through the last 25 years, there’s been very little diversity in the number of teams and coaches that have won titles.
It's not a perfect system, but it does somewhat discourage tanking
Which is the point.
Tanking Doesn't Happen Enough For Me To Want A Lottery
And high picks are no guarantee of success. Heck, Indy had the first and second pick in a draft back in the 1990s (drafting Steve Emtman and Quentin Coryatt)…it took them nowhere.
Yeah the point of the lottery isn't parity
It’s specifically anti-tanking.
Sure, high draft picks aren’t a guarantee of success, but they clearly are valuable.
Getting fired discourages tanking.
I really don’t see the problem. In fact, I’m not sure I’ve even seen this “problem” discussed elsewhere.
It Gets Discussed Every Once In Awhile
Tanking isn’t as much of a problem in the NFL because it’s self-correcting. Players hate it because it negatively affects their market value and because their careers are so short that they hate risking themselves in a wasted effort. Fans hate it because there’s no guarantee a high pick fixes your team (and there’s a lot more wrong with the Colts than QB). Owners hate it because fans quit attending games and they lose revenue dollars if the games get blacked out.
Tanking games is a bigger problem in the NBA because the fans of the teams that normally suck don’t care and the players can throw away a bad season with fewer negative repercussions.
And
It’s not like Jim Caldwell has been such a great coach that he should be secure in his future there. The stories I keep seeing about him seem to indicate that while he gets a bit of a pass for not having Peyton, the fans think he’s tactically overmatched.
Unless, of course, Polian told Caldwell to throw games…which I seriously doubt because if that ever became public I could easily see Goodell punishing the Colts for that one by taking a draft pick. You don’t need a lottery to punish teams that tank…you just need a commissioner who isn’t as clueless and gutless as David Stern.
Getting fired would certainly discourage tanking
Unless the GM/Owner also wanted the team to tank (which if a HC would consider tanking, would clearly be the case).
Pffttt!
3 #1’s for Luck or RG3 … I’d do it in a heartbeat! That only translates into 2 of our next #1’s in actuality. Except for perhaps Barkley?, no QB will be what Luck IS – and RG3 could be – the next 2 drafts. Plus, if we muddle thru 10-6, 9-7, 8-8 type seasons the next two seasons, we’ll be even further back in the 1st rd. Lacking our next 2 #1’s only means Pioli has to do a great job of hitting on more 2nd and 3rd rounders, signing some really good FA’s, and maybe making some good trades of some kind. Right? ;=)
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Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 7:50 PM CST up reply actions
Fact is,
I never saw Cassel scan the field the way Orton did, Maybe Ort isn’t the future of KC, but I know Cassel isn’t. I’ve seen Cassel play with heart, and not make too many mistakes, but he check’s down everytime if the first read isn’t there. In my eyes the 2 games Orton has played, he was in control of the O, was calm and just made better plays. I will be mad if Cassel is the starter next year, I would much rather have a QB lear from watching Orton make his reads, than watching Cassel dump to the RB every play. But unfortunately I think Pioli likes Cassel too much, so we’ll have to deal with him, and McD because of it.
I don't have a catchy, catch phrase.
Ok...my response remains the same, though
Go back and read the threads last year after the Titans game. Basically one year ago today.
Cassel was the answer, and almost no one had any doubts.
It is very easy to fooled into thinking Orton is a lot better b/c we have grown so sick and tired of Cassel. The stats say they are essentially the same QB.
Oh, and the biggest play Orton made last week was a dump to a RB, who took it 50 yards….
Ok, Everyone sees things different,
I’ll agree with you I’m sick of Cassel, but I still don’t see him making reads, I see him get flustered and then he’s dancing around like a little school girl the rest of the game. I just think Orton is nothing special he is who we saw, but i think he can stay calm and make some plays, I think they will both lose us games, but I could see O winning us more games than Matt .I don’t think either is the answer , but i just think the Cassel experiment failed time to move on. I think Orton, would be better than Matt with the team we had last year, and let a QB develop.
I don't have a catchy, catch phrase.
Cassel would've been slightly less likely to throw those two INT's
Both of which cost the team points, maybe they win if he’s QB’ing?
Maybe Orton, to you, looks more comfortable, but maybe it would be better if he was less comfortable and didn’t throw either of those balls?
As I heard last week, sometimes sticking with your #1 target slightly longer can be an advantage because they can become open a second later, and can be bigger plays?
Again, these are just devils advocate opinions. I truly am not arguing that Cassel is better, I just think there isn’t much difference, and if we, for instance sign Orton to a 3 year deal and cut Cassel, in 2 years, we’ll be having this same argument about Orton not being good enough.
We need a real, long term answer.
Agreed
Talent-wise there isn’t much difference. I think Orton is a little better, but he’s also not anything close to a franchise QB. Neither is Cassel, and I’m willing to bet neither is Stanzi. I don’t believe the QB of the future is anywhere on the roster.
Bullshit. David Mims can throw the out and the touch pass with ease.
David Mims runs an offense like David Petraus runs a war: Shock and Awe.
/this meme will never die
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 6:51 PM CST up reply actions
Must Not Have Gotten The Meme
Who is David Mims?
Oh, and Petraeus didn’t do “shock and awe”…that was the (Colin) Powell Doctrine, advocating overwhelming force initially applied to inflict maximum damage early on while avoiding the pitfalls of underestimating the required manpower and materiel commitments. Petraeus fought more of a counterinsurgency strategy focusing on population engagement to control terrain while separating the insurgents from the populace who are their base of logistical and personnel support as well as a mask for their operations. Very different kind of war from shock and awe (which falls under conventional war fighting doctrine)…counterinsurgency is asymmetric (unconventional) in nature.
It's something you might've missed from late summer.
David Mims became AP’s Chuck Norris joke…“David Mims doesn’t sleep, he waits”…etc.
Also, good work on differentiating Petraeus v/s Powell’s Mideast strategy. You’re correct on that one—our objectives were totally different once he took command.
See what trouble I get into with a single one-liner? lol
"I’ve got to play well enough," he said, "so we can make it to the playoffs."
--Kyle Orton
by go_saleaumua on Dec 27, 2011 7:51 PM CST up reply actions
"Shock N'Awe" is just another name
for BLITZKRIEG! Just we have more and better technology now.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 8:01 PM CST up reply actions
Pretty Much
Blitzkrieg and shock and awe were meant to be the opening to full military operations by striking critical nodes to disrupt enemy resistance before the full invasion commences. We learned a lot from the Nazis. :)
Are you sure you aren't talking about Vietnam? ;+)
Petraeus fought more of a counterinsurgency strategy focusing on population engagement to control terrain while separating the insurgents from the populace who are their base of logistical and personnel support as well as a mask for their operations.
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
It's Similar To What The Marines, Special Forces And General Abrams Attempted During Vietnam
But thanks to Westmoreland and his tactical misfires, particularly with Khe Sanh, it was too little too late. But what I described is really just a general strategy for all counterinsurgency. COIN is about separating the insurgent from the population largely through non-lethal targeting directed towards the populace (more like police work at times than soldiering) whereas conventional warfare is more about victory through attrition by primarily lethal means.
Algeria would probably be a closer parallel to Iraq than Vietnam. Actually, Cambodia post-Khmer Rouge (after the Vietnamese invaded) would be even closer.
Never Mind
I meant Cambodia was a better parallel to Afghanistan. Screw it, I’m wiped and going to bed. See you all.
Orton being able to come in and perform how he has with a busted up finger and limited practice is telling.
Another thing that’s not getting much mention is Orton’s “intangibles”. It seems to be the only thing that Cassel really has going for him but Orton has the same leadership and has earned the same respect in the huddle. The oline also seems to have a little spark with him under center too. The only glaring issue Orton has is bad red zone production. It was his knock in Chicago and Denver and now here. I think that’s something that can be improved on with a healthy Charles though because to be successful in the red zone you have to be able to run the ball and Orton has never had that to lean on.
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions
You're basing your judgement of his 'intangibles'
On two games that you’ve seen. This has been a major criticism on his past two teams. Talk of ‘slumping shoulders’ were common before he came here. Now, after two games, in which he’s going for a new contract, and the team has been responding, this is a positive?
You also think the team has responded with him under center…I agree completely, but also, isn’t it possible that the team is responding to not having Palko under Center?
Offseason comments will be very telling, if you hear leaders on offense saying they want one QB over the other (I highly doubt this) that would be important.
Last point about the new and improved great Orton led offense…the last two weeks, we’ve scored 32 points. Against the 12th and 29th ranked D’s in points against. So we scored 16 ppg against very marginal defenses…which is almost exactly what we were averaging with Cassel as QB.
Matty Nice will be back at STARTING QB next season
“Book’em, Dano!” ;+)
A Dog's Heart
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
Author Unknown
Still trying to outsmart me, aren't you, mule-skinner. You want me to think that you don't want me to go down there, but the subtle truth is you really *don't* want me to go down there!
by LocoLoboChico on Dec 27, 2011 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
agreed
i hate seeing games with 120 -190 yards passing. With such a great run game you would think it would open up the pass. He doesnt go through progressions , and he locks onto one receiver. I would take ortons 300 yards with 2 interceptions overs cassel 120 and one interception any day. And orton does it without charles and moe.
Will those thousands of fans
not go to the game? Nope… It does more for his ego to give Cassel another shot. It is just the way it is.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
that's the main problem ... if/when Pioli's ego gets in the way of making decisions that are best for the TEAM
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Instead of just releasing players like Jackson, Dorsey, or Cassel,
why not just request a contract restructuring. They aren’t that bad, but not worth their contracts.
They probably do ask
doesnt mean they will say yes
by TheScreenName on Dec 27, 2011 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, it's hard to say.
We probably don’t know the real market for those players. Maybe they think that they can match their contract elsewhere, so they feel like they have leverage. Who knows.
Wish they would just play like they are getting paid
then problem solved
by TheScreenName on Dec 27, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions
To not resign Bowe and Carr
would feel like we are taking steps back on this team building. Both guys are young and seem to fit this core group. To let them walk freely without getting anything in return would feel like a slap in the face.
Absolutley
Hey Tebow, which god is helping you win? Apollo, Ares, Atena, Demeter, Kronos, Zeus, Brahma, Ganesha, Gauri, Hanuman, etc.? Shut up, play and lose.
Bowe will get the FT.
Now it depends on him if he resigns with KC or gets traded away. From what I have seen with the new CBA you cant FT a guy twice so it would be KC’s last chance to trade him or lose him.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
True, I forgot about the FT
Hey Tebow, which god is helping you win? Apollo, Ares, Atena, Demeter, Kronos, Zeus, Brahma, Ganesha, Gauri, Hanuman, etc.? Shut up, play and lose.
You are probably right about FT Bowe
Now what do we feel he is worth in return is another question.
by TheScreenName on Dec 27, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah that is what I was saying
Marshall got two 2nd round picks.
Williams got a 1st, 3rd and 6th.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
oh ok
I was too lazy to research that : )…………..I would be happy with a 1st and a 3rd
by TheScreenName on Dec 27, 2011 2:12 PM CST up reply actions
Franchise tag rules DID NOT change in new CBA
You can still franchise a player more than once.
Cool
Thanks man… After reading this I did look up more info on it. The one thing that changed is that it is not the top 5 at a position for the prior year but now it is the top for the 5 years prior. It actually lowered the FT numbers by about 20%.
What a year! At least we have the Royals... Oh Wait!
2012 offseason
if pioli values team chemistry like he says he does, he will re-sign Bowe, McClain, Carr, Gilberry.
He should cut Sabby, Becht, Palko,
He should sign Paul Soliri, or Antonio Garay for nosetackle, sign michael bush at Running Back.
he should draft a RT or LT in first round, a RG and get another TE.
To talk about team chemistry
and yet suggest who we should sign, doesnt really go hand in hand. Sabby, Becht, and Palko may have real good chemistry with team, we dont know. Problem is the lack talent, a shit load of talent. The guys you are suggesting we sign might have horrible chemistry with our team….
by TheScreenName on Dec 27, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
Kelly Gregg is worth keeping
…If he wants to be here. He has had 48 total tackles this year. Not too bad for a NT, and he’s a locker room leader/coach on the field.
Eric Berry + Brandon Flowers = a pissed off Phillip Rivers
Good. Maybe we can get a senior discount then.
Dear Santa, All I want for Christmas is a NEW OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR!!!
by ARROWHEADSHANE on Dec 27, 2011 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
LOL
Max: Two days ago, I saw a vehicle that would haul that tanker. You want to get out of here? You talk to me.
About next year
Has anyone heard how our torn ACL team (Charles, Berry Moioki (SP)) are doing? How are their rehabs are going?
Yeah good question
Does anyone have any news on these guys? I for one am very interested in how their doing.
Warning: If you're reading this it has been censored.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Stanzi said Moeaki is doing well and Charles was ahead of schedule.
"Give them nothing! But take from them everything!"
by GenericBrand on Dec 27, 2011 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
ok
berry and jammal are doing good I heard ready to get back and start the off season to come back strong!
by kcchiefs2782 on Dec 27, 2011 3:54 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Bowe
Give him the franchise tag. Bowe doesn’t deserve a large contract. Let him play for one next year while Baldwin develops. If Bowe does play lights out, trade him when his value is highest. If he stays inconsistent, sign him for a smaller, long-term contract as WR2.
Good idea
i like that, if baldwin outplays bowe, bowe is either expendable or will take less $. If not, we’ll, pay the man.
Why They Don't Have Carr already locked up
is beyond me, that’s a no-brainer. franchise bowe, and lets get some OL and DL and a QB to compete. if we do that, we’ll be in good shape. letting bowe or carr go just opens another hole. Rule #1, sign your own good free agents.
IMO
trade Cassel, re-sign Orton, lose Palko, Draft a QB.
Re-sign Bowe, Carr, and McClain (although I think he’ll still want to go somewhere he can play RB).
And I hope Gregg comes back. There’s nobody proven behind him. No need for major changes on a strong defense unless we get a good offer for Dorsey OR Tyson Jackson.
Draft picks need to go to Offensive Line, QB (1st Rd?), O-line, then defensive line, and finally O-line.
"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."
-Henry Ford
I don't see the Chiefs bringing these FAs back on offense: Jeheme Urban, Thomas Jones, Tyler Paliko, or Kyle Orton.
or bringing these FAs on defense—Kelly Gregg and Wallace Gilberry.
Though it would be a surprise and a mistake but I also would not be surprised to see the Chiefs lose both Carr and Bowe.
I don’t think they will give Bowe the money that he wants since his play is inconsistent from pass to pass. I think Carr is just as good if not better than Flowers but I don’t think the Chiefs will pay him in the same neighborhood that other teams will pay him. Unless they lock these guys up by the Super Bowl, I think we will see Pioli’s ego get in the way and let these guys walk away.
by NFL season ticket holder on Dec 27, 2011 10:45 PM CST reply actions
I thnk this team is going to have massive turnover in the offseason
Does anyone have a link that has the Chiefs FA list for 2012? I can’t find 1 anywhere
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Dec 28, 2011 3:12 AM CST reply actions
Resign/Cut...
Resign:
Bowe, Carr, Orton, and Gilbery
Cut:
Thomas Jones, Shitty Piscetelli, Barry Richardson, Reshard Langford, Donald Washedup, Tyler Palko, Terrence Copper, Jeremy Horne
Trade Bait for Franchise QB: Dorsey, Bowe, Cassel, *Orton
(must resign or franchise then use as trade bait)
Disclaimer: I don’t want Bowe to go anywhere, but I do want a FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK…It is time!!!!
Clark Hunt & Pioli, get some KING KONG BALLS and move up to draft a QB in the 1st RD of the 2012 NFL Draft: RG3, Luck, Jones, or Barkley.
Follow me @ChiefsatWar (Twitter)
Keep Orton and Jones
Orton is under valued.. A winner with every team at some point.. Bears had no WR when he was there and he won, Denver had no D and he won… Next season we have an all pro cast coming back from injury plus an awesome draft position.. If we beef up the O-line, with Charles and Moeaki back… top 5 offense.. Orton is able to make all throws unlike Cassel who only hits with in 15 yrds.. And Jones is the man.. It is also under valued what leadership means to a team.. Even if he gets 100 carries all year, just being around makes everyone better.. I loved how energized and into the team he was after those runs the last 2 weeks.. Getting pumped up and exciting the crowd.. A true class act and wouldn’t be happier than to see him stick around
Damn guys. I'm reading about knee-jerk reactions throughout this entire thread.
Don’t forget about the fact that the Chiefs won the division last year and almost pulled it off this year. They are a bubble team that lost most of it’s star power at the beginning of the season (EB, Moeaki, and JC). You get those guys back into the lineup next year and you’ve got yourself the makings of a pretty damned good football team. Do we need tweaking here and there? Absolutely. But we do not need to sell off half the team just to make a change.
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