Stop Defending Haley - Look at the Stats

I'm all for moving forward

but I’m not going to let these keep coming without responding.

First, don’t list Battle with those other three guys. Battle had one good game, some big carries against SD and…. nothing else.

Having weapons is one thing. Having a QB to get the ball to the weapons is another.

You and others make the halftime adjustments argument. Being the inferior team in almost every game this year, the Chiefs threw the gameplan at every team in the 1st half. Some (Patriots) adjusted. Others (Steelers, Bears) didn’t. If we heap praise on the DC for his defense, both Haley and his coordinators need to take blame for the halftime moves or lack thereof. But when you are the team trying to befuddle the other team and hold them off, there isn’t much adjusting that can be done when your personnel is so thin.

This is a fairly objective analysis on my part. I am not being a Haley fanboy like I can be, I am saying it is not as cut and dry as analyzing points from the 2nd quarter.

by Steve_in_RI on Dec 16, 2011 10:20 AM CST reply actions

A QB is your ACE pitcher. They are bound to get in a slump. Haley couldn’t get Cassel out of slumps. There was no Head Coach / QB chemistry between them. He looked like he gave up on his job when Palko got into his slump against Pittsburgh. The guy was barely an OC, let a lone a Head Coach.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions

You are more than entitiled to your opinion

Cassel is clearly an inconsistent QB. If we fault Haley for Cassel’s poor play, then we should give credit to Haley for the 27/7 season last year. But I realize the credit from most will go to Weis. I was just stating my opinion. Go Chiefs.

The guy was barely an OC, let a lone a Head Coach

.

This alone is also a very biased an subjective statement, not backed up by your fan~~shot~~post.

Enjoy the weekend and let’s beat some Packers.

by Steve_in_RI on Dec 16, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions

A coach gets credit...

Coaches get Credit when their QBs play well. Their job is on the line if they aren’t. I don’t think Matt Cassel was much better than Matt Hasselbeck , but he has more talent than Andy Dalton.

Great coaches have great relationships with their most important players on the team. Deep down, would you have trusted Haley with Andrew Luck or RGIII ? Because I wouldn’t.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

apparantly a coach gets the blame for injuries to key players such as Jamaal Charles, Tony Moeaki and yeah, Matt Cassel

like dude … it’s been ugly, we all know that, but take (for example) Aaron Rodgers out of the picture for Green Bay and what’s left? or this one: the Raiders w/o DMC have been struggling to score, much less win …

you want stats? go look up how many yards Jamaal Charles had last year, it was a major portion of the offense, then add what Moeaki had … and factor in the Cassel difference as well … the STATS that you love pretty clearly show we have a lot of weapons out this year

have a great day :-)

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Dec 16, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions

Haley had Matt Cassel as the NFL's hottest QB for like 6 straight weeks last year.

But I guess that all depends on whether or not you believe Yahoo Sports’ Senior Investigative Reporter Charles Robinson’s twitter feed

After arguing with Haley, Weis washed his hands of Cassel’s development in early in 2010 & Haley took over those duties.

Cassel did not excel under Weis. That coaching job was done by Haley. Weis washed his hands of Cassel’s development very early.
12 Dec

That’s part of why Weis left after 2010. Haley couldn’t coexist w/ him. Nor was Haley happy Weis was getting credit 4 Haley’s work w/ Cassel
12 Dec via web

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions

Robinson lives in Los Angeles. He never visited the Chiefs locker room once last year – except for a San Diego game.

According to WAR ROOM , Haley stated that he wanted Zorn to become the QB Coach because Quarterbacks weren’t his speciality. Conflicting reports here….

Also odd that Cassel’s play started to erode once Weis announced he was leaving.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions

Right, since he lives in LA he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

It’s not like he’s a senior reporter for a huge news source. There’s no way he could have inside info.

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 11:07 AM CST up reply actions

The point is that he is only reporting off of second hand accounts… he wasn’t a direct witness. If Kent Baab would have reported that, it’d be more credible.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions

How do you know who his accounts are from?

He might have talked directly to Haley, or Weis, or Pioli for that matter. Just because he wasn’t physically in KC doesn’t mean he can’t pick up a telephone…

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions

FWIW - Robinson is one of the best investigative reporters around ...

… he knows everyone coast to coast and in between …

but I guess you don’t believe the facts revealed by Woodward and Bernstein in the Watergate episode because, after all, they weren’t direct witnesses either … by your logic Richard Nixon should never have been indicted

riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Dec 16, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions

How many times

are we going to have glorified comments bury the good fanposts?

by old_school on Dec 16, 2011 10:22 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

Sour Grapes Gramps?

Isn’t that the point of Recommended posts vs Recent?

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions

I'm getting so tired of one-sided bullshit like this.

Todd Haley did some good things here. I mean, he won the fucking division in his second year as HC. He coached up DJ and Bowe. He inherited a soft and out of shape team and molded them into a much tougher locker room. He brought a winning mentality back to this team. I mean, just this year alone, after he lost 3 pro bowlers and a very talented TE, and no quality depth to back them up, he still managed to eek out 5 wins. I mean, come on. The guy had been handcuffed to an average at best QB (when he has a super star RB), with TYLER FUCKING PALKO and a 5th round rookie as his other options.

Bottom line is that there WAS a lot of in fighting going on between Haley and Pioli. We don’t know how deep it goes, but it was there. For whatever reason, it’s looking more and more like Pioli and Haley BOTH were trying to sabotage each other, and that is fucking pathetic, because it will only hurt the Chiefs organization in the long run.

For Haley to have done what he did with a pathetic group of QBs, a roster $20 million under the cap, no depth, injuries to his best players, and a hostile work environment is pretty fucking miraculous. The players also seemed to like him, and played pretty hard. I know you can point to blowouts and say “they didn’t play hard enough”, but play calling and overall talent level played a large factor in the blowouts.

Not that all of that absolves Haley. Not at all. Haley went rogue and started to really show how dysfunctional he was going to be. He refused to start Stanzi, even given how fucking awful Palko was, in what I think was a big middle finger to Pioli saying “Fuck you Scott, I’m not going to help you develop a QB, when you handcuffed me to this shit in the first place”. He blew up on the sidelines, drawing a personal foul penalty. His personal appearance went against the clean cut image both Hunt and Pioli were trying to implement, and rumor has it he was acting very unprofessional both in attire and personal hygiene toward the end.

The whole situation was a fucking mess. But if you step back and look at this with an objective view, then you’ll see it’s not all black and white. There was a lot of grey area within this situation. Pioli, Hunt and Haley are ALL to blame for this fallout and dysfunction that took place. There is a stink left on this organization, and it’s not just from Haley.

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 10:42 AM CST reply actions 6 recs

this

you said it better than me.

I supported Haley tooth and nail, but hey, it’s a new day and let’s move on. Seems like the only Haley fanposts that are coming out are from people who are pissed that some of us actually liked Haley.

I think everyone, including me, should just move on from this topic until we see how the rest of the season and the new hire transpires.

by Steve_in_RI on Dec 16, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions

I like it...Rec'd this shit...

BTW…the last time I used fuck more than once in a thread I got a Warning…

First of all, you throwin' too many big words at me, and because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect...

by SFLChief on Dec 16, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

My bad.

Not trying to be disrespectful, just trying to add emphasis. Don’t normally drop the f bomb that much, but this topic has gotten me fired up.

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions

Nah man, I dig it...

It provides an emphasis that is needed sometimes…

First of all, you throwin' too many big words at me, and because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect...

by SFLChief on Dec 16, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions

look ... Tomahawk is GREEN!

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Dec 16, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions

This is the best post I've seen on this.

Think you for showing both sides at fault. That is my whole thing, I know both sides acted like asses, but I think Clark has to give The GM another shot over the coach. I was a Haley supporter, but ido think he lost his edge this year, I know he was dealt a shit hand, but think he could have handled it better. Now I know Pioli helped deal him that hand, but think Haley had a lot to do with the Back up QB, situation, and all the AZ. rejects on the team. Pioli has to get this next hire right, or he needs to be out the door quickly. I know all of us fans are frustrated, Haley supporters, and Pioli supporters it’s just been too long since we had a consistent team to cheer for. I also want to apologize to anyone I’ve offended with my Haley comments lately. I’ve been rude with them just because I felt like there was a ton of people not holding him accountable for any of this. Go Chiefs

I don't have a catchy, catch phrase.

by dbakerku on Dec 16, 2011 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

It just seems like there's a ton of Pioli Backlash against the Haley firing

A Good Wide Receiver coach could have helped Bowe. If you need a Head Coach to do that … your franchise has serious issues.

Haley won the division, but had a losing record against division rivals and teams with winning records.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 10:49 AM CST reply actions

As there should be.

Pioil hired Haley. And within two years rumors were already starting to surface that there was in fighting between the two. Pioli’s hands aren’t clean of this whole mess. He risked the development of this team by letting his strained relationship with Haley get in the way.

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions

Haley needed pressure. He got embarrassed in the playoffs and then the opener + the first two games of the season. Haley also looked sloppy in the preseason. Maybe if the team was taken seriously during those games, the back ups wouldn’t look lost.

Chiefs lacked a Winning Attitude because Haley didn’t have it in him. He preferred to be controversial…

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 11:08 AM CST up reply actions

Haley did what he thought was right in the preseason and that didn't work.

There’s no defending that.

But that still doesn’t excuse Pioli for not spending cap space to put better players on this team.

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions

Haley did what he thought was right in the preseason and that didn’t work. There’s no defending that.

I may disagree – the loss of those key players early in the season makes it difficult to discern. Apart from those damn ACL’s the Chiefs have usually had fewer injuries than their opponents.

I knew that the decision not to detract from strength and conditioning in spite of the short offseason would mean our offense and defense would be “rusty” early on, but maybe it wouldn’t have been as bad had we not lost Charles, Berry, and Moeaki.

Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions

ya think?

maybe it wouldn’t have been as bad had we not lost Charles, Berry, and Moeaki

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Dec 16, 2011 1:34 PM CST up reply actions

DJ also benefited from Haley's coaching.

And from most accounts it seems like a lot of players really liked him. Remember too that Breaston likely wouldn’t be here if it weren’t for Haley.

And who cares HOW they won the division? Our rivals played pretty much the same schedule. The Chiefs were the better team last year, period.

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions

It seems like with Haley, doubt was in every mind of those players.

Do some of the players have more than one mind? ;-)

Seriously, though, I completely disagree with this – Haley had his faults, but I think he did a great job of earning the respect and trust of his players.

Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:01 AM CST reply actions

look at the 3rd Quarter Stats. Anyone who has watched a Season of Football knows that great teams come out and have excellent 3rd Quarters. All of those grand “Half Time” speeches that films glorify… the Chiefs under Haley never brought that.

Morale and Indentity are important to coaching teams – no matter how many injuries there are. Look at the Patriots who consistantly lose 1/2 of their secondary and still find ways to win.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 11:05 AM CST up reply actions

Because the Patriots have a Hall of Fame QB,

And one of the all time top 5 to ever play the position?

Same with the Colts. They haven’t won fewer than 10 games per season for the last 10 years… until Peyton went down.

Teams that enjoy the longest tenure of success ALWAYS have an elite QB.

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions

and Shackett ... how do you KNOW what was in the minds of those players? do YOU have direct access? (see? it goes both ways, dude ... bottom line is, you can't have your cake and eat it, too)

It seems like with Haley, doubt was in every mind of those players.

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Dec 16, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions

Confidence is usually associated with success. In the 2nd and… especially 3rd quarters the Chiefs have lost it. But most players would say that Halftime adjustments focus on the overall morale of the team.

Sure , it could be that Cassel could have drank some Bleach by accident and became stupid but has the same or more confidence. I could be wrong on that. But his arm strength is the same.

Most commentators, starting with the Baltimore game, have shown that Cassel became fearful of throwing deep passes after interceptions.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions

Haley changed the attitude of this team.

2009 – “Fat Camp”. Todd Haley discovered a team of overweight and under-motivated athletes that were fine with losing.

2010 – Todd Haley’s camp doesn’t have to spend much time on conditioning because most of the players show up in shape. Result is an over-achieving team that wins the division.

2011 – A short offseason combined with the worst injuries you could ask for derails the season early on and the Chiefs don’t recover. THAT is Todd Haley’s big failure.

You tell people to stop defending Haley, but at the same time launch into your own tirade against him? What did you think would happen? If you want people to stop defending him, then stop attacking him. EVERYONE needs to move on, because like it or not, Haley is gone. This includes the Haley attackers.

"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram

by citadelchief on Dec 16, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions

There has been

a lot of players coming out the last few days saying Haley was a great coach and the players loved him. Don’t take much from watching the play of a team with little depth. They played hard almost every down that I seen.

Arrowhead Pride Weekly

by Chiefsfan85 on Dec 16, 2011 7:06 PM CST up reply actions

And regarding the title - Stop Defending Haley - Look at the Stats

It’s not all about stats…if it were, then Matt Cassel was a great QB in 2010

Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:02 AM CST reply actions

Ok. It’s about results. The Chiefs looked horrible coming onto the field at every halftime this year. Is that a statement we can agree on? They also looked horrible in opening drives. Those are the basics of preparation and adjustments.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions

Not playing devil's advocate, just asking

aren’t halftime adjustments usually the job of the offensive and defensive coordinators?

I get the impression that the guy best suited to adjust to what the opponent is doing defensively would be the OC who had time to review film during the first half any time we were on defense…

Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions

But also by the definition of Stats… most QBs are having better seasons. And most people would expect that, despite losing Moeaki, the addition of Breaston would only improve Cassel’s game.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions

Most QBs also didn't lose a player that accounted for 34% of their total offense.

With Moeaki and Charles out they lost 44% of their total offense. Can Breaston make that up? 2,491 yards and 11 TDs?

Cassel lost almost half of his offensive production with Mo and JC out. I know it doesn’t seem likely, but losing a star RB like Charles, when your QB relies so much on play action and needs all the help he can get moving the ball, can and did adversely effect the passing game. When Jamaal was just on the field, he drew the attention of the defense and forced them to respect his presence. We don’t have anyone like that in the back field this year.

Anyone that expected for Cassel to get better after losing his second favorite receiver and safety blanket (Moeaki) plus his fall back on RB, who also accounted for the 3rd most receiving yards (Charles), was fooling themselves.

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions

Cassel actually did get better in a few areas in 2011

Before his injury he was improving at going through his progressions. He was doing a much better job of keeping his eyes downfield and not leaving the pocket too early compared to 2010.

Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 16, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions

the point is the same, though ... it's the wame as I said earlier (above in this thread)

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Dec 16, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions

Sounds like Herm is back

“You fans just need to get used to losing”

I expected a head coach to put his team into a position to win despite injuries. This team was not even close to being in a position to win most weeks this season.

You want your QB to develop, as a coach, you have to show him how to adjust when the road gets tough, not just keep chugging away on the same flat tires. This team had no sense of confidence of competing, let alone winning, because the season was “lost” for the head coach when his two most important players went down.

I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.

by RememberDelaney37 on Dec 16, 2011 1:50 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

you're right as always, Delaney ...

half the offense was broken (out with injuries) and it was ALL Haley’s fault that the defense gave up 50 pts/game to the Bills and the Lions …

boy howdy, good thing we have someone NEW who had NOTHING TO DO with ANY of that leading the team now, yup … that Crennel, he’s a GENIUS and he’s gonna lead us to the Super Bowl THIS YEAR

how? with ALL THEM THERE FINE PLAYERS that we got from Mr Pee-Ohh-Lee

Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Dec 16, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions

You got one thing right in your sarcasm

It was ALL Haley’s fault.

Even he himself said that the defense was based around one player: Berry. I’ll give Haley some credit, the defense improved despite losing apparently one the player that was the difference between giving up league average or better points per game and allowing 35+ points in our 5+ blowout losses. The same cannot be said for the offense, even before Cassel was injured, and that was supposed to be Haley’s specialty? I would say in 3 years, Haley failed miserably on the offensive side of the ball

I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.

by RememberDelaney37 on Dec 16, 2011 4:19 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

Yeah...

Teams can overcome injuries… but they usually need to be less than 20 million under the cap.

JC goes down and our backup plan was Battle, Jones and Dex? Honestly the run game hasn’t been too putrid, but they still don’t have that big home run threat that D’s have to respect like Charles.

Moeaki goes down and our backup plan is Pope and O’Connel? Haha.

Eric Berry goes down and our backup plan is McGraw and Piscatelli? Actually I think McGraw is decent, but Piscatelli probably doesn’t even belong in the NFL.

And your argument about the team completely folding after the injuries would make sense if the Chiefs hadn’t gone on a 4 game win streak. At times this year I’ve seen flashes from this defense that makes me think they’re on the brink of being a truly elite unit.

Still, I’m getting tired of fans saying “all teams deal with injuries, Haley should have just dealt with it”. Shit yeah most teams deal with injuries. That’s because they’ve spent a sufficient amount of cap space to get viable backups and provide suitable depth. The Chiefs haven’t done that in over 5 years…

"saints_chiefsfan1979 is a genius" - yes, I lost a bet.

by Tomahawk29 on Dec 16, 2011 5:04 PM CST up reply actions

Haley is a good coach

Who was Derick Johnson before Haley? Who was Charles before Haley? Who was Bowe before Haley? Give credit where credit is due, he is a good coach. It’s not his fault there was no back-up.

I miss Will Shields and Wille Roaf

by Chiefs3188 on Dec 16, 2011 12:13 PM CST reply actions

I don't disagree

But those statements are sort of like saying Brian Billick was responsible for Ray Lewis’s success.

It’s fine if you’re an offensive / defensive mind and have a great offense / defense. But if your offense is amazing and defense is bad, then you’ll probably be out of a job. Always succeed at what you were hired for.

As for the loss of Charles / Moeaki … injuries happen. Running backs get injured. So do Wide Outs and TIght Ends. Pioli deserves some blame for not getting a 2nd TE. But he drafted DexMex in the 2nd Round the year before.

by Shackett on Dec 16, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions

Reply and quote fail...

Running backs get injured. So do Wide Outs and TIght Ends

Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 16, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions

I can't believe how much credit Haley gets for DJ, Charles, and Bowe.

Who was DJ? DJ was actually playing good football before Haley arrived. Just inconsistent. And he was severely outplaying Demorrio Williams the year that Haley benched him and he made big plays every time he came in. Wonder what that year would’ve been like if he wasn’t just playing 3rd downs.

Who was Charles? The guy that Haley stored on the bench and only started using when our season was over and LJ tweeted his way out of town.

Who was Bowe? Basically just a 1,000 yard receiver with Huard, Croyle, and Thigpen throwing to him.

by ChiefsFetish on Dec 16, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions

Who was DJ?: Well, he was an inconsistent player at a position that demands consistency. If you can’t look at him now without seeing the difference in the player he was, then I’m really not sure what else to tell you.

Who was Charles? The guy on the bench. A 3rd rd pick with questions about durability, football IQ, and ball security. Todd Haley could have gone a number of different ways, but he didn’t. He gave JC his chance and let him carry the ball. He even went out and got him a mentor in Thomas Jones.

Who was Bowe? A lackluster player with incredible talent. A guy who could make an amazing play when it suited him. Haley is the guy that lit a fire under Bowe. Notice that Bowe went to Larry Fitzgerald’s camp the next offseason. Notice that he became the protege talent of Chris Carter and Keyshawn Johnson. All three of those WRs are guys that have a ton of respect for Todd Haley…but I’m sure there couldn’t possibly be a connection there.

"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram

by citadelchief on Dec 16, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions

So we're giving all the credit to Haley on this?

With DJ, I see a guy who started thriving under Crennel’s 3-4 defense. The fact he’s being used in a completely different role might have something to do with better play too. I give Haley props for getting him to be more consistent.

And no credit should be given to Haley for Charles. He didn’t even give Charles a chance until a guy averaging 2.7 ypc finally left town. He even split the carries with Charles and Kolby Smith before finally giving Jamaal the nod. This is like giving Pioli credit for finding Brady in round 6. It was all luck.

As for Bowe, notice how he’s still dropping balls? Or disappearing in games? Baltimore ring a bell? And i’m sure natural development and maturity had nothing to do with any of his progression. It’s all Haley.

I’m not trying to take all the credit away from Haley, but Jesus, he did what coaches are paid to do. Make players better. That’s an expectation, not a luxury.

by ChiefsFetish on Dec 16, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions

The big thing is that you refuse to acknowledge that Haley is making these personnel decisions.

DJ – Could be playing behind Demorrio Williams.

Charles – Could be playing behind Kolby Smith, Thomas Jones, Jackie Battle.

Bowe – Could be playing behind Jon Baldwin, Terrance Copper, Steve Breaston, Jeremy Horne.

“He did what coaches are paid to do, make players better” – But you just said that he shouldn’t be getting credit for that. You’re giving credit to everyone BUT Haley.

"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram

by citadelchief on Dec 16, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions

Why the hell wouldn't he make those personnel decisions?

He started DJ over a perennial backup. Bravo
Started Charles over a perennial backup. Bravo
He started a guy (who has better numbers in his career to this point than Andre Johnson) over a bunch of scrubs. Bravo

I can give him some credit for helping with their development, which is part of his job, but i give him no credit for starting players who should obviously be starting.

by ChiefsFetish on Dec 16, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions

Any and all of them could have been released or traded.

Instead, 2 of the 3 have long term contracts, and the 3rd is in process. Haley made the decision to move forward with those players instead of telling Pioli to get new ones.

Haley developed a lot of talent on this roster…which you pointed out is part of his job. Where would those players be without Haley? They would probably just be considered mediocre talents on a terrible team.

NONE of them were obvious starters until Haley got the most out of them.

"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram

by citadelchief on Dec 16, 2011 6:28 PM CST up reply actions

What are you talking about?

Charles was obviously the fastest guy on the field every time he touched the ball even as a backup. He didn’t suddenly improve; in fact, if you look at his numbers, his yards per carry as a backup were about as high as when he took over as starter. The main difference is he just started getting more carries, which would be an obvious choice for any head coach.

by sea_people on Dec 16, 2011 8:56 PM CST up reply actions

Running backs get injured. So do Wide Outs and TIght Ends

Yes, but injuries at the same position don’t hurt all teams equally…

How would the Niners be doing this season if they lost Gore in Week 2? Would losing Ryan Grant in week 2 have affected the Packers as much as the loss of Charles or Gore would hurt KC or SF?

Three years ago when Mike Brown was our SS, were we as strongly affected when he missed games due to injury as the Steelers are whenever Polamalu goes down?

Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 16, 2011 12:36 PM CST reply actions

Look at the 1995 Dallas Cowboys, and apply corresponding injuries.

Emmitt Smith – Out for season
Jay Novacheck – Out for season
Darren Woodson – Out for season
Troy Aikman – Half a season

Does that team win the Super Bowl?

I hate that “injuries happen” nonsense. Yes, injuries happen, and it is a huge deal when it happens to key players. Those players are “key” because they can’t be easily replaced.

BTW, not arguing with you, just trying to enhance your point.

"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram

by citadelchief on Dec 16, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions