What Chiefs GM Scott Pioli Has Actually Done
by Wait and See on Nov 18, 2011 10:01 AM CST
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PrintFrom the FanPosts -Joel
It always surprises me when I listen to people discuss the Kansas City Chiefs and they completely gloss over how terrible this team was when Scott Pioli and Todd Haley got here in 2009. In this article, I take a look at what Pioli has actually done through an objective lens.
What He Started With
Here's the roster Pioli inherited. Pay particular attention to the sheer number of players that aren't even in the league anymore. I think this roster speaks for itself but here are some highlights:
- QB - Quinn Gray backing up Tyler Thigpen ("stud" QBs Damon Huard and Brodie Croyle were on IR).
- OL - Damion McIntosh and Rudy Niswanger were starters; neither is in the league anymore.
- WR - This list is embarrassingly bad; the highlight is an out-of-shape Dwayne Bowe. Mark Bradley, Jeff Webb, Will Franklin, and Kevin Robinson have washed out of the league; Devard Darling is a backup for the Texans.
Drafts
Pioli's first draft was bad. The best player so far has been Ryan Succop (Mr. Irrelevant!). Tyson Jackson has looked much better this year, but Donald Washington, Quinten Lawrence and Jake O'Connell look like backups at best. Pioli came in, cleaned house, didn't have the right people to fill in for the scouts/staff he got rid of, and made some, in my opinion, poor choices. I don't hold that against him just as I don't hold any player's rookie mistakes against them.
Pioli's second draft was good. It gave the Chiefs two starting safeties in Eric Berry and Kendrick Lewis who both look like studs, a good nickel corner/return man in Javier Arenas, a gadget offensive player with potential in Dexter McCluster, a starting guard in Jon Asamoah, a starting stud tight end in Tony Moeaki, and a solid linebacker prospect in Cameron Sheffield (deserves a full, healthy off-season before being judged).
Pioli's third draft is almost impossible to judge at this point due to the shortened training camp. We do know the first round pick has flashed incredible potential (I've seen Jonathan Baldwin's behind-the-back catch six times and I still don't understand how he did it). We'll have to wait until at least next year to begin judging this class.
Free Agency
Pioli has been solid but not spectacular in free agency. In Pioli's second season, he got the Chiefs four new starters in Ryan Lilja, Shaun Smith, Thomas Jones and Casey Weigmann and a backup WR in Jerheme Urban. He significantly improved the offensive line, built depth at the other two positions and increased the veteran presence in the locker room.
This season, Pioli got the CHiefs a legitimate 2nd/3rd receiver in Steve Breaston, a Pro Bowl fullback in Le'Ron McClain, a much better 4th/5th receiver in Keary Colbert (vs. Terrance Copper or Urban), and an actual nose tackle in Kelly Gregg (vs. Ron Edwards, who was always a 4-3 defensive tackle trying to play the nose). We also saw competition at linebacker and improvement in special teams in Brandon Siler (although he was quickly injured and never made an impact). The Chiefs let go of some mediocre players (Ron Edwards and Shaun Smith) instead of saddling the payroll with inflated salaries that would have made it harder for KC to competitively pay good players.
"But we should have gotten more and higher profile guys!"
The Eagles did that and their record is 3-6. There are rarely good players in free agency because good players get extended or traded. Anyone you bring in has to fit your system, which further narrows the list of candidates. You're also virtually guaranteed to overpay because there are 31 other potential bidders, including desperate teams on the hot seat looking for a savior and hopeful teams looking for the final piece.
The bottom line is you can't build a team through free agency. I've never heard anyone who argues for a free agency spending spree give an example of it working.
Myth-Busting: Paying for Players
The available evidence refutes the widespread notion that Pioli is unable to pay for good players because Clark Hunt wants to keep the payroll low. Jamaal Charles, Tamba Hali, Brandon Flowers and Derrick Johnson have all received extensions (Hali's in particular was enormous). In the next couple years, Brandon Carr, Dwayne Bowe, Glenn Dorsey and Brandon Albert could join them.
It's fantastic that the Chiefs can win the division with a low cap number. It means KC has the money to sign quality free agents and our own deserving players, can afford high round draft busts or players who stop playing after getting a contract, and never have to worry about drafting too many guys.
If you still aren't convinced, think about it this way: Why would Pioli, who's had his pick of GM jobs for years, had a counteroffer from the Browns the very year we hired him, demanded total control as a condition of employment, and presumably likes to win, sign with the owner who said, "You can't spend up to the cap"? (And if you think a guy as obsessed with details as Pioli neglected to ask about spending policies beforehand, you're crazy.)
Myth-Busting: Who Deserves Credit for Success in 2010
I constantly hear people complain about how Pioli/Haley's success has only come as the result of players signed by Carl Peterson and Herm Edwards. This claim is patently false.
First, whether you like him or not, Matt Cassel was a huge upgrade over the four quarterbacks Pioli/Haley inherited and a significant part of the success last year (27 TDs, 7 interceptions and a 93 QB rating). Pioli deserves credit for clearly identifying our quarterback problem and making a move.
Second, of course the few good players on the roster from the previous administration are important to this team. Even if Pioli hadn't had a poor first draft, his new guys would have been second year players, making it unlikely that they would lead the way in 2010. Despite this lack of experience obstacle, Pioli added five starters through the 2010 draft that were critical to our success that same season (Berry, McCluster, Arenas, Moeaki and Lewis).
Finally, does anyone really believe Edwards would have gotten the same production out of any of our talent? Bowe and Albert were both embarrassingly out-of-shape before Haley came to town. Think about that for a minute: the worst players in the NFL are physical specimens, and we had young, first-round pick starters who were badly out of shape.
Overall
I think Pioli has done a very good job in the short time that he's been here. He's drafted a number of instant impact players and carefully selected free agents who have improved our performance on the field and the veteran presence in the locker room without breaking the bank. The Chiefs don't have great depth yet, but that's to be expected given the horrible roster Pioli inherited, his bad first draft and the NFL lockout. The team has gotten significantly better, although it's hard to tell this season because of the numerous season-ending injuries to critical players.
Are some of the games still painful to watch? Yes, but every time we have a bad game, think back to how horrible the Chiefs were at the end of Edwards tenure (9-7, 4-12, 2-14). This team has genuine talent and plays hard every game, which is a vote of confidence for Haley and Pioli. It gives me hope.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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I like much of what Pioli has done
but there is room for improvement. I’m starting to seriously question his ability to evaluate defensive linemen and he needs to force Haley to accept working with a strong, creative OC. Since getting here, Pioli has used 7 draft picks on the defensive front 7 as well as signed a few FAs, yet we still can’t get a pass rush (or stop the freaking option). We’ve also had a new OC and a different person working with Cassel every season, and this year’s offensive scheme lacks creativity while Cassel regressed at QB.
Maybe Bailey and Powe develop into starters. Maybe Miller or Siler comes back strong after being on IR this season, or Sheffield starts to play as well as he does in the preseason (he seems like the defenses Jackie Battle). Maybe Houston just needed to adjust to the speed of the pros and will start getting some pressure. Right now, none of that has happened. And, right now, we have too many weapons on offense to not be putting up more points.
All i'm sayin'
is look at the Broncos, John Fox custom built a system for Tebow. Do you think Haley could do that? Mr. Myway or the highway change?? Remember Tony G. suffered thru three years of Herm meet with Haley/Pioli and decided to leave what does that tell you??
by chieftimbob on Nov 18, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
herm coddled guys
Gonzalez had his own parking space.
Pioli came in and took away the “entitlement” attitude. Gonzalez was not above the team. He sure thought he was. Sure, he worked his butt off, but at each season, you have to earn it.
Seriously, a parking space.
No doubt Gonzalez would have made the offense very dangerous if he was still here. But he didn’t buy in, so he is gone.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Tony G. should
had his respect and when you come and put everybody on the same page you dissrespect the guy who deserves it. Are you telling me i you had to work for a new boss and the first thing he did is put everybody on the same level that you would still work for that guy, BS!
by chieftimbob on Nov 18, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
The fact is the 'team' is all on one level to begin with
There are no tiers or advancements or new job titles to gain. You either buy in and build with the team, or you pack your bags.
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
The fact is
when this team wins a playoff game then i will get off there backs until then I guess your right everybody is on the same level of dogshit.
by chieftimbob on Nov 18, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
winning a playoff game is the standard then? because tony g never won one in KC....
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
or we can continue to celebrate mediocre results from KC
when is the fan base going to finally have enough? Remember this post started with Haley and Pioli. Why are we celebrating the accomplishments of the 18 and 21 (regular season) 0 and 1 (playoffs) reign of Haley and Pioli?? What standard do you want to jude them by?? The characters of the players, or is football about winning??
by chieftimbob on Nov 18, 2011 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
or about building a team that will have sustained success?
i’ll take waiting another year or two for a team with sustained success over a whole decade rather than a team that may surprise and make it to the AFC championship game just to miss the playoffs the next few years afterward.
winning is always the game. but doing it the right way is the most important thing.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
how long do you wait??
My problem is since Haley came to KC he somehow pissed of Tony G, and hes on his third O.C. i knew this year was a bust when Charles and Berry went down the team doesn’t have the depth to overcome those injuries and I hope I’m wrong and Haley/Pioli win it all-I’m just a little grumpy because Tebow and Fox of the Bronkeys are winning and that always gets me goin.
by chieftimbob on Nov 18, 2011 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
quit being idiotic dude
Tony G was crying before Pioli even came here. Jesus.
CHIEFS DYNASTY – we’re kind of a big deal
i've played on athletic teams with big shots that thought they were above the rules
including respecting people because of their talent.
flip it around: if you were a new boss and some people were acting like they were entitled to parking spots, etc, and you hadn’t even seen their talents on display in the office, what would you think of them?
there is a difference between respect and entitlement attitudes.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
so the new football coach knows nothing about Tony G. then why did we hire him?
If that happened in my office i would be working somewhere else and so would you think about what your saying rookies and league leading future hall of fame veterans are on the same level???
by chieftimbob on Nov 18, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
We have literally no idea how that all went down
Tony G had already asked to be traded. They know that much about him.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
I was under the impression
that Tony G (one of my favorite players of all time) just didn’t want to be part of a rebuild when he knew he only had a few more years left in the league. He wanted to go where he thought he’d have a shot at winning it all. The chances of that happening with a rebuilding team just aren’t that great. I don’t think the ‘breaking players down’ schtick of Haley’s sat well with him. But, I never thought that was the primary reason he left.
I believe in the Chiefs' Way. Someday, we will set the standard for how to be a championship team!
by Face Painter on Nov 18, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
That makes much more sense to me than
“They did it for no reason other than to be disrespectful and stupid”
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
I thought I read it on here somewhere
but that book “war room” actually said that they sat down with Tony and wanted him to stay but he didnt wanna go through the rebuilding thing again. So you are correct from the books point of it
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
I have no problem with the greatest TE in the history of the NFL and a 1st ballet hall of famer getting his own parking space
I would say he earned it,dont you?Pioil needs to get off his high horse ,he doesn’t have Brady backing him up.I’m sure he has his own parking spot
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:53 PM CST up reply actions
Yep I Bet
Haley and Pioli both have parking spots WTF
by chieftimbob on Nov 19, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
John Fox also didn't lose the most explosive RB in the NFL... you know... the one that our offense is built around.
Who were we supposed to build our system around? The WRs? gotta have a good QB if you want to do that, and as much as it pains me to say it, Cassel has not been good this year.
Jones and Battle? hahahahaha.
McCluster? OK, I can buy this, but I don’t think he can handle being the go to guy for our O. Although I also don’t think they’ve been using him to get max potential out of him. So I can see your “system” argument there.
True, but you have to think Gailey would've figured something out
With our WRs (I know Baldwin hasn’t been available most of the year), a decent enough TE in Pope, DMC, McClain, and some serviceable power backs (Jones and Battle), there is no reason for our offense to be as anemic as it is. Especially since Haley was once considered an offensive mastermind.
by Chiefs4Life on Nov 18, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
Meh...
The team was handcuffed by one of the NFL’s worst QBs.
I’m willing to give Haley some leeway on this one. He had that offense clicking last year.
But we had better see something happen soon.
Not sure if Palko/Stanzi are better than Cassel, but we need to start weeing the WRs get used properly.
Agreed in full
We need to see our players used to the best of their abilities WITHIN the system, not trying to force fit players into an exact idea of what the system SHOULD be.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
The same can be said of
Jim Harbough with Alex Smith, and Hue Jackson with Darren McFadden.
I understand losing key components on both sides of the ball. Along with the lack of depth on this team it makes things very difficult. But at the same time, its the job of the coach, his staff, and the GM to figure out how to make it work regardless.
We have talented, quality players still. We didn’t lose everybody. We’ve seen this team be capable at home and on the road. We’ve also seen this team fall apart and get destroyed by good to mediocre to winless teams.
It is in those circumstances that I find it hard to defend the Coach and his staff. The horrible play calls, inability to get plays even called, and the lack of desire and effort I’ve seen these past two weeks on both sides of the ball is underwhelming.
Hue Jackson has pushed and bullied a physical, punishing team that wants to punch you in the mouth. We may have beat them soundly on the road, but I guarantee they will be a different team when they come to Arrowhead next month. Will we? Or will we still be trying to “find our way”?
Despite losing 3 key players, after 3 years, you would think a HC would’ve established an identity with his team. Instead we’re still searching. Just my opinion, but that’s not a good thing.
We ride together, we die together, Chiefs fan for life!
Not sure about the rest, but
inability to get plays even called
is pretty discouraging for a fan to watch. Especially at home. If it’s because of your headset, then why are you helpless without a headset? Why are professional players still confused about how to line up?
would of ≠ would've
From poor coaching would be my first guess
and somehow I don’t believe the “headset malfunction” excuse works when it seems to happen on an almost weekly basis. Or maybe its just the aligning of the planets, who knows?
RG3, its easy as ABC.
Yes. The problem is too persistent.
They either hired a bunch of shitty players, or there’s something fundamental being overlooked by the coaches.
would of ≠ would've
Ha, or they hired some shitty coaches
either way, there is a definite problem and its painful to watch.
RG3, its easy as ABC.
Herm Edwards teams...
were usually competitive and most games were close. Now we are being blown out. Pioli and Haley come in and switch to a 3-4 when they have players drafted for the 4-3. They are unable to attract impact free agents. Last year they had the easiest schedule in the league and a weak division, stumbled into the playoffs where they were crushed because of Matt Cassel’s poor play. They refuse to address the QB situation and NT position.
Chiefs players who are out of the league are tainted for having been with a losing team, the reverse situation of why we can’t attract free agents.
I’m not impressed and don’t expect to see the Chiefs win a SB in my lifetime.
I am here to answer those who mock me scorn for scorn.
3-13 and 2-14 are not competitive.
And there are plenty of blowouts in those 2 seasons.
Last year we had the easiest schedule, and this year we have one of the hardest schedules and play in a division where all of the teams are still in the playoff hunt.
They have addressed the QB situation. They traded for Matt Cassel and drafted Ricky Stanzi. Whether the moves work out or not doesn’t change that Pioli has addressed it, and is expected to address it again this offseason. Not every move works out as well as you want it to. Kendrell Bell anyone?
Chiefs players who are out of the league are out of the league because they weren’t good enough to get on anywhere else. Any of them could have signed training camp contracts (and many did). All that happened was for other teams to find out what the Chiefs had already learned.
And we do attract free agents. Steve Breaston and LeRon McClain could have easily had their pick of any team in the league. They came to KC. Also, it was no secret that if Larry Fitzgerald didn’t get his contract from the Cards, he wanted to come to KC.
The Chiefs are building a franchise. They aren’t trying to put together an overnight success that falls apart as quickly as it came together. They are getting players that want to stay in KC and want to see it become a force in the NFL. Just like how it happened in New England.
By all means, remain skeptical. Remain critical. Demand more and better. But don’t immediately write off all of the things they have done. That’s the point of this post.
"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram
by citadelchief on Nov 18, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 12 recs
Don't try to gloss over
the overall shittiness of this division. Kinda like being the fastest kid with one leg.
Dont understand this logic...
Who could we have possibly gotten in the offseason to address the QB position after our QB has a Pro Bowl year. Granted, I dont think he is great but the amount of hindsight in hitting Pioli is just overwhelming. And, how can you say that he didn’t address it when he picked Stanzi.
Same thing with NT. We got the NT from the best defense of the last decade. And while he is old, he is mentoring a draft pick that 95% of us wanted at some point in the draft. In most cases, 3 rounds higher than he actually went.
Awesome Original Post by Wait and See!
by brahmabull43 on Nov 18, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
I would hardly say competitive
Remember when we had revolving kickers who made easy field goals an unsure thing? Remember when the team would score a couple of touchdowns in the first or second quarter only to become gassed and out played in the second half of almost every game? The only way we became somewhat competitive is when Thigpen took over at QB and Gailey had to go to a college spread offense. Even then that barely kept us in the game only to lose anyways. You are right in that these losses are bad because we get blown out and that I can’t understand. Perhaps those losses wouldn’t have been blowouts if our offense could execute more consistently and score some points. A loss by three or seven is easier to take in the minds of us fans even though it’s still a loss.
by RA_ChiefsFan on Nov 18, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
The thing I liked about Thiggie is they threw a BUNCH of QBs into the fire, and he was the only one left alive.
So I was more than willing to drive that horse, ’til he was slowing the stage, and a possibly less gritty but stronger-armed QB could step in.
I think more consistent offense, and RAC’s D would hold up their end, even though I don’t like RAC’s style, most of the time.
would of ≠ would've
Let's not forget how historically slow this Edwards team was...
Even Mike Vrable made these players look slow! Dwayne Bowe, and DJ look much quicker are there feet. The stamina of these players has drastically increased… to say these players were better off under Edwards is complete bullshit!
Go Chiefs!!!!
The team is thinner..
And now the offensive and defensive lines get pushed around week after week
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 18, 2011 11:40 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
The team is thinner?
Our starters were backups.
by bamachief5558 on Nov 18, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
He means literally thinner
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
Herm Edwards teams
Marty Schottenheimer typically kept games close and consistently had teams stocked with more talent than what Herm was getting. Plus he won a lot more games and coached them fundamentally better than Herm. The one thing in common they had was neither was going to get us to the Super Bowl. I’ll put my hopes of grandeur in the current regime. Herm’s a good man but not a good Head Coach.
You can't spell "suck" without KSU
I disagree, Herm is a great coach
The better players you have the more creative you can be. Look at the Pats, Bill B is a defensive genius their D is one of the worse in the league right now.
You can make a Hot Dog into a Kansas City Strip.
Bill is a 3-4 guru
He is learning about tweaking the 4-3 as they go
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 20, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
Isn't Powe and Gregg addressing the NT position?
And I wouldn’t say they refused to address QB. They handcuffed themselves to Cassel. Now if they don’t address the QB situation after this season, then yes, they will be ignoring it and should be called on it.
But,
1) There were no better options at QB available. Freeman, Dalton, Tebow, and even Sanchez aren’t upgrades to Cassel.
2) You would have had a hard argument to make to replace Cassel in 2010, since he only had one year on a rebuilding team, and 2011, when he just came off a pro-bowl year.
Well, in hindsight Dalton was, from the look of things...
But hindsight is 20/20
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
You don't draft a QB when it looks like you're set at QB.
Who knew Cassel would be so ineffective this year? That all stems from our nasty injuries.
We're obviously not set at QB though.
You’d think that with still having a top 15 run game and WRs like we have that Cassel could have been productive. but he wasn’t. He’s obviously not the guy. Time to move on.
I was all for giving him time to evaluate him, which I think he received. It’s fair to look at his body of work in KC and determine that we should replace him as soon as a viable option is available.
We are 10th in rushing yards
because Bill Muir has us running the ball far too much. We have probably the least efficient running game in football.
Maybe so. But if not, we prob'ly have the least efficient passing game, especially considering the WR talent.
I still would rather keep fixing O-Line with those high picks than fix QB that way. But that doesn’t mean I’m particularly excited about Cassel remaining the starter. Seems like there’s somebody out there with quicker eyes-to-brain-to-body than Cassel’s showing. I wouldn’t waste a 1st-rounder on QB, considering the undeserved pummellings Cassel’s received. But I think I could find somebody either in the ranks or baggin’ groceries, with a style of play that complements what the other 10 guys ARE giving the KC QB.
The only reason I can see for not just marching the field with the pass is that Cassel can’t do it. At some point, you have to be willing to show other teams that when you decide to throw it on all 3 downs, you’re GOING to convert, because it’s just so impossible to stop something good from happening 3 times in a row. I think they could run just fine, if they just ate teams alive with those 3 WRs of theirs. The fact that they never do says to me that they can’t do it.
would of ≠ would've
This is true
But I honestly can’t bring myself to blaming Cassel. Think about any drive over the past two weeks where there hasn’t been a drop, costly holding penalty, or a sack. Cassel never gets a rhythm. He’s shown that he can drive the ball down field if his receivers catch the passes and his offensive line blocks for him so i think he deserves at least 1 more year.
This excuse is wearing very thin.
Most of the “drops” can be attributed to Cassel’s lack of accuracy. It’s the receivers who can’t get a rhythm going because they are constantly having to adjust to the haphazard placement of Cassel’s throws. Do you seriously believe that the receivers we have would have any trouble catching balls thrown by Rodgers, Brees or Brady?
Ancora imparo.
by midcalchief on Nov 20, 2011 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Good points.
Or the timing of the pass being less than ideal, or the velocity on the ball in addition to the poor placement. One play I want to blame the WR because Cassel threw it in his area and away from the coverage. But then on the next pass, the WR is looking for it away from the coverage and the ball is thrown to the coverage.
I still think Bowe drops a lot more balls when the field is half-in-shadow.
I remember defending Grbac for many of the same reasons as others and I have been defending Cassel. But in Grbac’s case, I could easily point to the money spent on him and a few Peterson Pets that kept the team from creating situations for Grbac to be consistent. But then, as now, there was a less statuesque QB in the ranks, who maybe gave THAT team a better chance to win. (or was Gannon gone by that time?)
Last week’s game against Denver was a pretty clear case of a good-looking first drive that was ruined by mental/physical errors on the part of other players. But even some of THAT can go back to the QB, if the teammates’ heads and hearts aren’t really in it.
You’re never going to have a perfect pocket. The QB has to improvise within the framework of what the team can give him. Would I like to have a BETTER pocket? You bet. But I also want a QB who can create something, who can attack the weakness created by the stunts that the defense is pulling in order to flash some color in the QB’s face. There’s always a tipping point.
Doesn’t mean that they’re done re-tooling offensive line, but I remember St Louis having a less-than-perfect O-Line, when Bulger was more capable than Kurt Warner. Bulger deservedly got the starting job, and Kurt Warner deservedly went on to win the NFC Championship for a better team in AZ than the team he left behind.
I don’t know that Tyler Palko is enough to make this offense gel, but it seems pretty clear that Cassel isn’t enough, at this juncture. Don’t know what that means for the long haul. I can see the team keeping him, but as a backup to the hot hand, and, if the Chiefs don’t go QB-crazy, they can keep addressing OL aggressively, and maybe today’s hot hand gets injured, and Cassel steps back into harness and is very successful on a better-balance, more fundamentally sound football team.
would of ≠ would've
I think Brees and Rodgers are bad examples
If you’ve ever watched a Saints game you’d know that they run 4 deep with WRs who all can make acrobatic catches. Lance Moore, Marques Colston, Devery Henderson, and Big Meech all make crazy catches on a weekly basis. Sometimes Brees is under pressure and can’t deliver a pin-point ball and they still snag it in. Same thing with Jermichael Finley, James Jones, Jordy Nelson, Donald Driver, and Greg Jennings. The drops from McCluster, Bowe, and Breaston over the past 2 weeks have all been catch-able throws.
It all goes hand in hand. If they catch a lot of those passes on 3rd down, then the opposing pass rush actually has to settle down and maybe Cassel has more time to make an accurate throw the next play.
Convert a few of those and the pass rushers actually start to TIRE a little bit, too.
I agree with you, though, that many of the great QBs in the league over the last 10 or 20 years were as much a product of superior WR play as a product of superior QB play.
Give Favre Brooks, Freeman and Chewie, and he goes from loose cannon in Atlanta to HOFer in Green Bay. Essentially the same guy playing the same way, but with players at the receiving end to split the difference with him, turning decent area throws into completions, time and time again.
This is one of my favorite rants, because I think there is too little credit given to the WRs in a lot of those cases.
would of ≠ would've
Can't blame Cassel...
…when every drive is the same: Run the ball for a couple yards. Run the ball for a loss or break even. Then force Cassel to pass on third down, and have the receivers run short routes that won’t generate first downs. I think the guy has talent that Haley won’t use, and opposing teams have our number easily. Cassel HAS shown the ability to drive the team and move the chains. Remember when he and Haley got into a screaming match, and Cassel came out swinging the next drive? He wants to win, and he’s willing to do what it take, even after an emergency appendectomy.
I really used to like Haley, but the more I see of him, the more I think he’s just too hard-headed to change his mind about anything—if he wants to run, he’ll continue to run, even when we’re clearly in passing situations. He won’t make halftime adjustments. I’m sorry, Haley, but open your eyes. As a head coach of a professional sports team you should be able to adapt your team to the game’s situations instead of stupidly trudging out the same repetitive, predictable game plan week after week after week.
Cassel’s got talent and he can win games. How many times did he and Bowe hook up last year? How many times has Haley even tried to find that deep threat this year? Something strange is happening in the Chiefs’ staff or office, because this whole situations seems too pathetic, and too strange for simple ineptitude.
Not really
We’re 5th in attempts, 10th in rushing, And 15th in ypc. They’re still averaging 4.2 ypc, which is pretty decent.
From running it on so many 3rd downs and 2nd and longs.
Muir has them running a lot in illogical situations. They aren’t horrible, but Battle, Jones, and McCluster are far from top notch.
To a great extent, I think that's true.
There’s little confidence in the passing game. Fact, or self-fulfilling prophecy? A little of both, most likely.
Offense and defense, it doesn’t appear like they force the issue at all. They don’t establish any kind of every-down threat that must be respected. Their playcalling, on BOTH sides of the ball, seems to be based on total lack of SELF-respect. Like they’re playing more to combat their OWN fears, than to plant fears in the brains of their opponents, and playing on those fears.
Some say they just don’t have the horses to pull it off. I’m one who believes that you have to play fearlessly, and impose fears and flights of fancy in your opponent, rather than jumping at shadows, yourself.
would of ≠ would've
I see a team that's starting to remind me of a Schottenheimer-coached team, with all their
heads full of the things coach wants them NOT to do, rather than their heads filled with all the GOOD things they WANT to do.
would of ≠ would've
I knew our Offense wasn't going to be good this year.
When we let Brian Waters go and Charles got hurt.
Outstanding post!
Before I had read your perspective I was on the fence about Scott " the don" Pioli and Todd " the bearded one" Haley.
You really gave me something to ponder on the next time i am about go off on this season and it’s leadership at 1 Arrowhead Drive
"Stay Classy Kansas City"
- Ricky Stanzi to the rescue!
by Mas Cervezas on Nov 18, 2011 10:05 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Ok, on paper that's all well and good.
Defense is just as bad, and the offense has regressed.
Truth his, he has done some very good things but this team has zero depth and perhaps the “core nucleus” isn’t as good as we’d all like it to be. I’m not calling for anyones head but this teams struggles start with Pioli and he should be held accountable.
I also don’t understand the “bare cupboard” argument either, as the best skill players from on this team are still from the old administration. Have they become better under the current administration? No doubt, but I hope they aren’t knocking themselves over patting themselves on the back, because the talent was there.
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 10:15 AM CST reply actions
I agree with this
There are a lot of good things that have been done here but our struggles are very real and Pioli needs to hold himself accountable there and what he has done or has not done that helped create that.
That being said, in the War Room book there was a comment about how difficult it is to continue to build a championship team but what Pioli has done is started one from almost scratch. I like how he talks about the culture in the organization and how that effects our lack of success, not just let’s get a new coach and new players, it’s about having a core of people who all work hard and want the same thing. He wanted to keep Tony G and tried to sell him on his vision and when it didn’t work out he let him go, that in my mind is just excellent decision making.
I don’t think heads need to roll just yet, but if we come back after another draft and continue to get blown out more often than not, then my tune there is going to change. I do however want to see what our guys we just got in the draft can do and with our star players returning how things go.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
I guess Pioli and I have different definitions of "scratch"
What does this team look without Bowe, Albert, Dorsey, Carr, Flowers, Hali, DJ, or Colquitt?
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
Except those guys all had to reprove themselves to the new regime.
Bowe and DJ especially stand out in that category. Hali and Dorsey both had to change positions. Carr still might not have made the cut with our new front office as we are still waiting on him to be re-signed.
Jarrad Page, Bernard Pollard, and Larry Johnson were all talented guys who received support from Edwards/Peterson. They didn’t cut it with Pioli/Haley.
"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram
by citadelchief on Nov 18, 2011 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, ok I get that.
…but I still don’t see how you can honestly say that the cupboard was bare when they were on the roster when they are STILL the best players we have.
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
No, it wasn't bare.
But it was pretty close. And with the exception of Colquitt and Flowers, I think it’s safe to say that all of those guys had to do something to prove they should be kept around.
"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram
by citadelchief on Nov 18, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
You want to see a bare-assed cupboard?
Take Bowe, Albert, Dorsey, Carr, Flowers, Hali, DJ, and Colquitt off the team.
/probably will never agree, so I’ll drop it.
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions
Take them off the 2008 team and it's TOTALLY bare.
Now, we’d still have Breaston, Baldwin, Asamoah, Lilja, Lewis, Berry, T-Jax, Gregg, McClain, Arenas, Dex, Moeaki, Houston…
Not nearly as good, but a much much MUCH better group than “the rest” that were around in ’08.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Go read posts from 2008 and you tell me how excited people were about Bowe and DJ
DJ especially. He was sub par, and a huge disappointment. Haley & Co have lit a fire under him, and he has bought into the program and turned into a beast.
Just because those guys have turned into stars, doesn’t mean they were the same caliber player when Pioli/Haley took over.
It's like asking a fan who gets credit for Tebow's rise of late
Fox or McD.. one drafted him, one built a little system for him
You will never get a clear answer
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
Oh Geezus
They were 1st round talents from superior programs who both made huge leaps in their 3rd year (As most players do) I’m not saying they DIDN’T take the step because of Haley, but Correlation does not necessary imply causation
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
It does seem awfully coincidental though...
That DJ became so much more consistent after getting shellacked in Haley’s doghouse. Bowe’s improvement was more marginal, but it was there.
Seeing as how those were two of the guys that Haley came down on the hardest, it seems like it can be inferred that he was at least helpful in their development (especially DJ, who’d been in the league 5 years before he became a stud last year, and an even biggesr stud this year)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
No, what you are saying is Pioli et al are beneficiaries of Herm's talent evaluation
Which i’m saying is not entirely true. Yes, players from Herm’s era have turned into exceptionally good players, but you can’t say with 100% accuracy that these players would have turned out the same had they remained under Herm’s system.
And while correlation doesn’t equal causation, it certainly can imply it.
Factually Incorrect
Bowe made his leap in his 4th year (rookie year 2007, doghouse and suspended in 2009, great in 2010).
Johnson has been inconsistent his entire career. 2010 was his 6th season and he was statistically tremendous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Johnson#Professional_career_statistics), recording 23% more tackles than in any previous season (121 solo + assist). This season he’s on pace to be slightly better than 2010.
by Wait and See on Nov 18, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with you Craig in Calgary.
The problem with the AP is once you dislike a player it’s hard to be impartial and objective. I’m that way with the play calling.
Agree...the guys were here
but what were they doing? Not so much that the guys were just here when Pioli & Haley came in but they had to sell these guys on more rebuilding and buying into what he was doing.
It didn’t work with Tony G because he wanted his SB shot, so the wise move was to move on and give Tony his shot at what he wanted instead of keeping someone around who didn’t buy in. It’s a win/win. This I imagine had to happen with all the guys that were held over.
The team lost what was it 800lbs or something in that first year? That speaks volumes about what Pioli and Haley have done as well as those players dedication to improve themselves. Again a win/win that has shown we have guys who want to be here and work hard.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Bowe was very, very good before Haley got here
And Albert had a fine rookie year.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
Bowe was good
But he’s significantly better, a much more complete player who not only runs better routes he also does well when asked to stay in and block.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
He does need to step up his pass blocking though
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
Most good Players continue to improve
He was good as a rookie and continued to improve, would have happened under any coach
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 18, 2011 11:43 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Not Herm Edwards with Derrick Johnson
Just sayin’
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
Gotta disagree here
He was out of shape and unmotivated. It would not have happened under any coach. Especially Herm.
I think Haley deserves at least a little credit for his development. That’s what Haley is known for more than anything – developing wide receivers.
by TheScootness on Nov 18, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
Again...,
He was good under Herm, with Huard and Thigpen throwing to him nonetheless
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 18, 2011 11:51 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Bowe
Best year under Herm
14.2 yards per reception average
Best year under Haley
16.2 yards per reception average
I cherry picked those numbers but across the board Bowe has increased his stats since Haley has coached him. He also pass3es the eye test better under Haley.
Haley deserves the credit for making Bowe and several other players better though I think he also deserves the blame for bringing down other facets of the Chiefs. The overall offense performed much better under Chan/Herm than under Haley.
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy ****... What a Ride!'
Once again, most players get better as their careers progress
I’d bet if you looked at a league wide average of rookie and second year WRs versus 4th and 5th year WRs the older guys would have better stats.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 18, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know that you can make that statement
considering most players average 3.5 year career
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy ****... What a Ride!'
And the ones that survive longer out perform the young pups
The more people do something, the better they get. Mind blowing stuff, huh?
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Its kinda the saying
that WR’s finally “get it” in their thrid year
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 8:43 PM CST up reply actions
OK so I thought I would look
and you should go look too. Many of the players I looked up quickly had their yards per reception average drop after their first couple years, I looked at LLoyd Moss and Rice. I also looked at Larry Fitzgeralds – his dropped considerably when Haley left and Warner was still there the first year after.
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy ****... What a Ride!'
Mind blowing stuff, huh?
Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting 'Holy ****... What a Ride!'
Yes, but AZ was also a team clearly in decline, at that point.
Their SB appearance was, essentially, Todd Haley’s contract year. Couldn’t’ve come at a better time for Haley.
I think Haley has the right psychology for WRs, who live in their own little meritocracy. Maybe not getting the best/most out of his big men. Maybe just doesn’t have the top-shelf big men, quite yet.
would of ≠ would've
No matter WHEN you come into a new team, there are BOUND to be good players, since every team drafts
from the same pool. And everybody gets the same number of draft picks.
Bowe, Albert, Dorsey, Carr, Flowers, Hali, DJ, or Colquitt?
So NObody comes into a new team with absolutely NOTHING to build on.
would of ≠ would've
by hmills110 on Nov 18, 2011 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
We have zero depth, but we now have starting talent.
Under Herm/Edwards, we didn’t have that.
There were two approaches that Haley could have taken: the duct tape approach or the break it down and rebuild it approach. Now, any man will tell you that duct tape fixes anything, but any real man will tell you that’s f*n stupid, it doesn’t fix the problem, it just holds it together until the thing is completely broken.
Pioli chose to break this team down and rebuild it. I agree with that approach wholeheartedly. We were a terrible franchise barely on life support. Pioli started at the top. He cleared out the people in his own office and started bringing in new ones. He cleared out the old coaches and brought in new blood. From there, he let his new coach dictate what the team needed. The first thing they needed was to change the atmosphere, starting with their physical conditioning.
Next, Pioli addressed the most important position on the field. Regardless of everyone’s opinions now, at the time, Matt Cassel was one of the hottest commodities at QB. Pioli got him, and a veteran LB to be the team leader on defense. We needed both of those things.
Pioli has since added a number of starters at various positions. In many cases, the very players that have had tons of support from this site: Steve Breaston, LeRon McClain, and Justin Houston were all offseason favorites of AP this past year.
Now, it hasn’t all come together yet, but the slowest part of any construction project is going to be the foundation. The foundation is now set, let him build.
"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram
by citadelchief on Nov 18, 2011 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 14 recs
Yes. Cassel and Vrabel were largely about infusing a professional culture into the team.
Those two guys had a lot to do with making sure things were going right in the lockerroom, and that more players spent more time watching film, and so forth. Thigpen, a very good man, admitted how Cassel outclassed him in the nature and amount of day-to-day work the QB needs to expect of himself. It’s not that Thiggie was lazy. He just had no idea how a starting QB was supposed to take the bull by the horns. That alone made it more possible for KC to develop their own QBs down the road, even if Cassel didn’t pan out beyond the 3 years. Meanwhile, they rewarded Cassel handsomely for the hazardous duty on an OBVIOUSLY re-building team.
would of ≠ would've
That's a bullshit statement
We’re missing 3 starters, 2 of them being the best player on their side of the ball. We’ve lost the #2 rusher in the league in Charles, and our #1 tackler in Berry. We lost Cassel’s safety blanket and a good blocker in Moeaki.
There’s a difference between a team regressing, and a team being destroyed by injuries.
Those injuries came early on. A good team copes.
That’s why I’m half-glad to see Cassel sit out a week, due to injury. It’s not really political, because he honest-to-God was injured. It only becomes political if Palko actually wins games on this murderer’s row.
would of ≠ would've
Agree wholeheartedly!
You need look no farther that the piss poor O & D line play, to see that Pioli has failed to build this team properly, from the inside out. This team is regularly getting punked in the trenches. And I’m sorry, but FAs like Gregg and Wiegeman are not progress. They are both getting throw around like rag dolls by most of the teams we have played. Add to that the failure to see Tyson Jackson for what he is, weak and soft, and Dorsey as a guy who will never come close to meeting 1st round pick expectations, and I see a GM who really doesn’t look anything more than average at evaluating NFL talent.
Add to all of that his biggest talent evaluation failure, one Matt Cassel, and I’d give him a D+ so far.
We'll see. I like Wiegs a little more than you. Gregg, also.
Considering Ron Edwards was IRed, I think Gregg was at the least a fortuitous change. I also think he’s more of a true NT than Edwards was. I really liked Edwards, though. I thought he’d be a fine backup, and was hoping the Chiefs would do something more dramatic than Gregg.
Although I don’t like Joe Theisman, they DID have Ziggy Hood on AFC Playbook, this week. Watching him and watching some of last week’s game, I started leaning towards some of the ILB critics, here on AP. Better head and better athlete at that SILB seems to be called for. I’ve been wanting to see the true NT in there, before bitching too much about ILB, and having seen the Chiefs for several games, now, with a significant contribution from #77, and the defense looks like its inside backers, especially #59, aren’t very instinctive, and make too many false moves. I was willing to forgive them last year, when the O-Line wasn’t being chewed-up by the KC D-Line like it is, now. On run plays, our 3 are eating 4 or 5, and there’s not enough attacking by LBs when that poor 3-man pass rush is chasing the QB.
would of ≠ would've
Let us look at results in Haley's tenure here
2009 – Offense 25 Defense 30
2010 – Offense 12 Defense 14
2011 – Offense 28 Defense 22
Do these look like numbers to be proud of?
Let us look at Herm Edwards results in his 3 years at the helm
2006 – Offense 16 Defense 16
2007 – Offense 31 Defense 13
2008 – Offense 24 Defense 31
Looks to me like we are still at the bottom of the league just like under Herm.
How long should you try? Until.
- Jim Rohn
Also to be fair
in 2008 we went 2-14…terrible yes. But we lost 7 games that year within 7 pts or less and that was with the worst defense in the NFL.
How long should you try? Until.
- Jim Rohn
Can't think of a single reason why
On a related note, after Troy P went down in ’09 the Steelers proceeded to give up 10 more points a game. 10.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Funny
He only played 5 games that season and they STILL ranked 5th in the NFL in Defense. Kind of blows your theory to pieces.
How long should you try? Until.
- Jim Rohn
Going by yards to judge a defense?
Really?
They gave up 13 ppg with him in. 23 ppg with him out.
You’re going to seriously try and put forth their defense didn’t suffer terribly without him?
They had a GREAT defense with him. Without him, and average one.
We had an AVERAGE defense with berry. So what happens without him?
Seriously, ten PPG difference and you’re trying to argue that it wasn’t a huge deal?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
I really with the NFL would stop doing that
Judging a defense/offense by yards rather than points is like judging a girl by her personality, rather than cupsize.
SMH
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 6 recs
We have a nominee for comment of the year
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
speaking of which
why do we not have a comment of the year? Joel, get on it
"No power in the 'verse can stop me"
Without a past, we have no future.
by MarineChiefsFan on Nov 20, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
Ok
They still ended the season ranked 12 in defense going by points. To also be fair they had other injuries on defense as well. Travis Kirschke missed 5 games, and Aaron Smith missed 10 games. So you simply cannot give all the defensive woes to one guy.
How long should you try? Until.
- Jim Rohn
Fair enough
But interestingly enough, in the games Smith played, they gave up around 20 PPG still.
In other words, there wasn’t nearly as much of a decrease in points allowed in the games Smith played.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Let me also throw this at you
The year Tom Brady went down….THE Tom Brady…The best QB in the history of the world went down in 2008 he was replaced by Cassel. Did that kill the Pats? Nope
The Patriots went from the number 1 offense the previous year to number 5. Oh my the loss of Brady should have ended their season!! But you know what a good football team does not make excuses when they have injuries.
How long should you try? Until.
- Jim Rohn
Of course, that team was riding 6 years of success.
Had an established and strong foundation with quality players and leaders. They had Pro Bowl talent representing every core group of players on the field. They had a strong front office (led by Scott Pioli) and one of the top coaches in NFL history.
And they missed the playoffs that year.
"You can't be fat and fast too; so lift, run, diet, and work." ~ Hank Stram
by citadelchief on Nov 18, 2011 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
They also went from 18-1 and missing out on 19-0 because of a miracle
To 11-5 and not making the playoffs.
Again, seems like a pretty substantial difference.
What if they’d lost Brady (their best offensive player) AND Wilfork (their best defensive player)? AND another offenisve contributor?
As it was, they went from a dominant, world-beating team to good team. Big dropoff. And that’s without losing another superstar and very talented role player.
I’d argue that example strengthens my argument that injuries to your best players makes your team worse…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
No sir...
To lose Tom Brady would be like for us to lose our whole offense. Tom Brady is supposed to be the Pats beating heart. You take him out and its over.
You also take into consideration that during the season they lost Adalius Thomas, Rodney Harrison, Laurence Maroney, and some other role players.
They should not have won anything…..they went 11-5 with two losses coming by a field goal. So they could have easily went 13-3 that season.
How long should you try? Until.
- Jim Rohn
Ummm...
I just want to point out that I am pretty sure that this is what Pioli is wanting to build here. You are talking about a team that was not very good and became one of the best over the course of the past decade. This is the goal, we just aren’t there in year 3.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
I would say Jamaal Charles was our offense's beating heart, frankly
and Berry>Harrison+Thomas at that point in their careers
While Moeaki>>>Maroney.
So even if we give them the edge on Brady… I see an evening out in the aggregate.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry I just dont see it
We will have to agree to disagree.
Dallas is doing just fine without Felix Jones
Texans are 4-2 without the best WR in the NFL
Titans doing alright without Britt
Injuries are excuses. You have 22 guys playing on offense and defense. A couple of guys could potentially put a hitch in your step but they will not cause you to get destroyed and totally have an avalanche of a season right after making the playoffs.
How long should you try? Until.
- Jim Rohn
Dallas still has Jason Witten, Dez Bryant, Miles Austin, etc.
The Texans still have Arian Foster.
Dallas didn’t build their offense around Felix Jones. Houston didn’t build their offense around Johnson.
Charles was the KC offense. And frankly, Cassel isn’t/wasn’t a good enough qb to compete without Charles taking pressure away from the passing game.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What don't you see
Dallas- STILL riding off the talent Parcells built
Houston- Building for at least 5 years with the same coaches in place
Titans- Up years and down years, but never completely started from scratch
Still not enough emphasis on what Pioli is building. Gonna take more time that you would like.
by old_school on Nov 18, 2011 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And by the way
Get back to me when the Texans actually get over that 10 year hump.
by old_school on Nov 18, 2011 12:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Felix Jones<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Jamaal Charles
And who is Dallas missing on defense with a similar impact to Berry? or Moeaki?
Texans… we’ll see.
A couple of guys could potentially put a hitch in your step but they will not cause you to get destroyed and totally have an avalanche of a season right after making the playoffs.
If they’re the best players on your team? And if the playoff appearance the year before was a mirage based on a crappy, crappy schedule? Yeah, it will…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
You are wrong I am right
End of discussion. Thanks for playing.
How long should you try? Until.
- Jim Rohn
Period. 'Nuff said
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Those teams you speak of have depth behind those players
Dallas has that kid who is doing better then Jones did. Texans have adecent receiving core. We dont have any depth at the positions we have injuries. Running backs maybe, but nothing close to JC. Now that Schaub is out, Texans may struggle
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 5:13 PM CST up reply actions
Thomas was a cancer. Maroney didn't improve in any season....Harrison was old
Tom Brady = to our whole offense? Ha.
Give me 2008 Wes Welker and Randy Moss on the chiefs and give me Ricky Stanzi and the 2008 schedule Cassel played, and let’s see how the Chiefs do.
Brady does not have the significance that you state. He doesn’t even have the significance of Manning. The Manning situation is a much better fit for comparison.
Once again, go look up the Pats 2008 schedule. It looks a lot like KC’s 2010 schedule. It is very possible that with Brady in 2008, that team would have ran the table again.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
yeah and go check out their schedule that year....
didn’t exactly beat any good teams.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
I like to give Herm some credit for leaving the roster with some talent, but those numbers don’t tell the whole story. Herm’s best year was with an aging roster. Haley’s worst year is without his best players.
"Hater" is a term used by weak-minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
by JComp11 on Nov 18, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hit the Hammer square on the head!
But logical perspective is hard on an open forum blog
"Stay Classy Kansas City"
- Ricky Stanzi to the rescue!
by Mas Cervezas on Nov 18, 2011 10:34 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
At the same time, I don’t give Pioli a pass for not having depth. Three years is plenty of time to bring in guys who can provide that.
"Hater" is a term used by weak-minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
Can't be perfect THO' we damand it
"Stay Classy Kansas City"
- Ricky Stanzi to the rescue!
by Mas Cervezas on Nov 18, 2011 11:06 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I give him one more year.
The Chiefs had just gotten to the point of having their starting roster fleshed out.
2009 – Demolition. They evaluated the roster, cut a bunch of fat, and had to move on from there.
2010 – Huge step in upgrading the roster. Starting FS, SS, LG, RG, TE, and C added.
2011 – Starting roster is pretty much completed with Gregg, McClain, Breaston and Baldwin added. Rookie depth is added, but a short offseason stunts their growth.
It’s been 2 1/2 years since Pioli took over. The fact that he has multiple pro bowl quality players all over this roster and finally has a real NFL caliber team in terms of starting roster says a lot.
He gets one more year before I start ripping on him for depth. We also need a QB. I don’t see how he can ignore this another year. Let the 2011 players develop, and continue to add solid talent in FA. Get Charles, Berry and Mo back and let’s see what happens in 2012.
Agreed
No QB addressed, as well as our RT situation and perhaps LG, along with pass rusher (barring development by Houston or Studie), and no one will be questioning louder than me.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
I've been anti-moving Albert forever
but I couldn’t argue against sliding Albert to LG, putting Gaither at LT, and drafting a RT. Gaither, Albert, Hudson, Asamoah, rookie or free agent. Though it may be simpler to just plug Gaither in at RT and draft or sign a LG. That said, I wouldn’t put it past Pioli to get another center and move Hudson to LG.
What qb do you have in mind? Only qb I’d want to draft is Luck. Other than that, I’m just not excited about the possibility of a rookie qb. I’d rather let Stanzi start.
I’d rather see a more powerful defensive line brought in.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
I'd like to see Stanzi play so we can get a decent idea of what he looks like.
And if he sucks (which is more likely than not), I say do one of several things…
A) Trade for Luck if IND is stupid and chooses Manning
B) Trade for Manning if IND chooses Luck and parts ways with Manning
C) RG3
D) Barkley
E) Jones
In that order of preference.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Me likey
I didn’t used to have RG3 over Barkley and Jones but I have warmed to him considerably.
I’ll immediately have to change my pants if A or B become reality.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 18, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
I'm there too
Although after this weekend RG3 may have even more support around here.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Very, very well said
While Haley has certainly made his share of mistakes, can people genuinely say that our drop-off isn’t at least a great deal related to losing our best overall offensive and defensive player?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
The above reply is appropriate here, as well. Pioli should have had players in place that could adequately fill in for the injuries, not guys like Jones, Battle, McGraw, etc.
"Hater" is a term used by weak-minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
This is where this topic gets all muddled
Pioli went out and got players for depth. Some minimum salary, some more expensive. Obviously, the more seasoned vets will be more expensive, the younger guys probably minimum salary. How those players turned out for this team only remains as Pioli’s responsibilities if he doesn’t continue to address needs when they don’t work out.
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Nov 18, 2011 10:50 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Besides, we are talking about 3 offseasons here, not 30
Highly unlikely Pioli could have gotten many higher quality, more expensive depth here in 2009 and 2010 offseasons with the way this team looked. 2011, we see the quality of Steve Breaston sign a long term contract. I can’t remember exactly, but I think Siler did as well. Kelly Gregg wants to get in here.
Winning is the only difference between quality players and filler players, and until we do that consistently, I guarantee you we won’t be outbidding other teams like Philly, New England, etc
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Nov 18, 2011 11:03 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Also
From the number given above, Herm’s teams got worse every year. On the other hand, Haley’s teams improved in year one over Herm’s numbers, took a massive leap in year two, and then dropped dramatically in year three after suffering a number of key injuries and playing a much harder schedule. Haley isn’t a terrible coach, but I have to wonder where his mystic of offensive guru went.
by Chiefs4Life on Nov 18, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
The mystique went the retirement route with Warner
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Nov 18, 2011 11:09 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Call me crazy, but I think Charles and Mo made far more impact for this team than Weiss.
No doubt Weiss would be helpful right now, seeing as how Muir and Whoeverelse is calling plays is trying to force square pegs in round holes, but Jamaal and Mo could mask a lot of problems.
Top tier players can do that.
They sure mask'd Cassel in 2010
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Beautiful mirage wasnt it?!
"Stay Classy Kansas City"
- Ricky Stanzi to the rescue!
by Mas Cervezas on Nov 18, 2011 12:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That turned into a horrible nightmare
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 5:27 PM CST up reply actions
I think Pioli is doing a very good job as the GM
As a job requirement, he has addressed needs through drafting and free agency consistently. Looking at the list of our roster when he arrived, remember the moves he made, not the results of said moves; every GM misses on personnel decisions, but I hate the false thinking that Pioli is “ignoring” holes in the team.
NT need: Shaun Smith, Kelly Gregg, Jerrell Powe
WR need: Chris Chambers, Bobby Ingram, Quinten Lawrence, Jerehmie Urban, Kerry Colbert, Steve Breaston, Jonathan Baldwin
LB Need: Mike Vrabel, Zach Thomas, Cam Sheffield, Brandon Siler, Justin Houston, Gabe Miller
QB need: Matt Cassell, Ricky Stanzi
Secondary need: Donald Washington, Mike Brown, Travis Daniels, Eric Berry, Javier Arenas, Kendrick Lewis, Jalil Brown
I’m sure I’ve missed a few and without going into all of the positions, you get the idea. Pioli is doing his job as a GM very well. Hopefully we have a coaching staff that can make some of these acquisitions into quality starters for a successful team. That may just be another position on the list Pioli has to keep filling
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Nov 18, 2011 10:37 AM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Lost all respect for Joel
You sir have sold out nice to know that the blog guy with the press pass loves the pass more then he loves the blog because this post is complete BS.
Lets talk about what Pioli started with you mention guys who would have been cut even if Herm had stayed but you failed to mention the Pro Bowlers on this team who were products of Herm. Yes Matt Cassel was a pro bowler and yes he had a nice season in 2010 but lets me honest for a moment how many bad throws did Bowe or Moeiaki pull in making Cassel look good? How many times did Cassel have a bad second down throw only to be pulled out of the trash by Jamal Charles ripping off a long run on 3rd down?
You talked about the 2010 draft and while it was a good draft the second round was blown! We have a RB/WR in Dex that has no position and the coaching staff does not know how to use him a much better pick would have been Golden Tate, and yes we got an ok CB but passed on a Good NT in Cody.
The freeagent moves you refer to in 2010 were moves that HAD to be mad Pioli didnt dig deep and sign talent he signed guys cause they had to fill spots on the roster.. All those players were low on salary stop gaps and they fell in line with Pioli’s main job which is to save the hunts money. Lets be honest about Pioli he has brought in NO players we know Hailey wanted Berry, any NFL QB could do what cassel does when they have Dbowe, charles and Moeiki around them! Pioli is the most overrated GM in history and if he blows another draft/free agency class we need to move on because its clear to me that in New England Bill was the brain behind all of that Pioli just rode his coat tails.
a lost reader let me know when your off Piloi’s payroll
@gistizgreat
South Side D
What does Joel have to do with this?
“Wait and See” was the author, Joel just frontpaged it because it was a good coversation starter.
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
My apologies to Joel
I thought Joel was the author of the post.
With that said I stand by everything said Pioli is overrated, Hailey is over his head and this team is being lead by Herms all-stars
South Side D
Given how it's very clear you do a careful examination of the facts before spouting off
I can’t see any reason why I should doubt the validity of your opinion…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
Or who wrote this post
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Screw facts
I blame you!
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Most people do
And they’re absolutely right.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
Have you followed Golden Tate's career in the last two years?
by JayhawksNChiefs on Nov 18, 2011 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
He wants Tate and Cody
(Having flashback to 2010 mockdraftegeddon)
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
I was a lurker back then
and I stopped lurking for about 3 months. That was rough.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
Ya
That was when Satchmo took his ball and went home the first time.
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
Haha a bad precedent was set then...
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Hasselback??
Who was hurt for most of the season in 2010?
We wouldnt have to waste money on Breaston if we have Tate, we could have had Tate at a lower price and for a longer period of time. That money could have gone to Franklin or anyone else Pioli passed in Free Agency.
South Side D
I don't want Tate for any amount of money or period of time.
by JayhawksNChiefs on Nov 18, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Why even pay him in donuts? Dude can find his own easily enough...
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
There's no factual evidence to prove that.
Although a 3-4 nose is more difficult to play then a 4-3 DT. Defensive lineman in a 4-3 are usually only responsible for one gap, whereas the lineman in our defense are responsible for two gaps.
by JayhawksNChiefs on Nov 18, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
he should be looking better in a 4-3 than a 3-4 anyway. not really making a point.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Strangely
a lot of people feel Power dropped so low in the draft because a switch from 3-4 to 4-3 in college wrecked his numbers. I wonder if he really is 6th round quality or if we got a steal. We won’t know until he gets on the damn field, though.
by Chiefs4Life on Nov 18, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
Powe* dropped due to the fact he went from being a 2 gap NT
To being asked to be a 3 tech and 1 gap, which he was/is too big to do that.
Franklin has played 2 gap NT, 2 gap DE(3-4), and 1 gap 3-4, and 4-3. Now he is usually being asked to be the NT in the 4-3 and 2 gap, which he gets destroyed most plays.
He is still playing NT
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
in a 4-3 defense..average
In a 34 defense he is a top 8 NT for the most part. Better than Kelly Gregg.
by JC25FoMVP on Nov 18, 2011 1:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I love how a player can be a total failure in the league after two years
Yet apparently he’d be a fantastic replacement for a proven guy who can perform with a crappy QB…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
TEBOW!
TEBOW!
TEBOW!
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 18, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
HEY!!!
Tebow is the best passing FB in the NFL. Give the guy some credit.
by Tomahawk29 on Nov 18, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How many passes did Cassel attempt that were on the money
and his receivers dropped them? It goes both ways there. They made him look good and shitty at times
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 5:24 PM CST up reply actions
Bottom line
Pioli and Haley have been very good for this team. Problem is our depth is showing. With all the injuries, we aren’t competitive. The rest of this year will be very telling. When do we start playing mostly backups? I’d say right after MNF. We want to see what the new linemen can do. Most importantly we need to see Stanzi on the field for 3 or 4 games. If that doesn’t happen, we’ll be stuck with Cassel again next year. And if that happens, both Haley and Cassel will be gone in 2013.
In Todd We Trust!
No depth means Pioli hasnt been good
His job is to build a TEAM not just good starting lineups. Those injuries happened at the start of the season it was so early that a good team would have bounced back and overcome them but not this team. Injuries happen in football which is why you build depth and you dont worry about injuries when they happen you just adjust and keep going.
How many injuries did the Packers have last year to starters?
South Side D
Invalid Comparison
Ted Thompson became GM of the Packers in 2005, meaning he had 6 years to build the depth that allowed that team to sustain injuries and still make the Super Bowl.
By the way, here are the Packers records under Thompson:
2005 – 4-12
2006 – 8-8
2007 – 13-3 (Lost NFC championship game)
2008 – 6-10
2009 – 11-5 (Lost wildcard playoffs)
2010 – 10-6 (Super Bowl win)
by Wait and See on Nov 18, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
While having great talent that included a sure fire HOF QB in Farve and then allowing Rodgers to learn
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions
Who said we were a good team?
Ask the Colts about injuries,
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions
great post.
though there are some weaknesses and things that remain to be seen, namely the offensive coordinator merry-go-round, no offensive identity, etc, I believe there is a lot we don’t know or understand.
We know Haley has his “quarter” system for playing the 16 game schedule. We also know he likes to use the off-season to get his players conditioned and disciplined, and to develop them. The short off-season, while over-used as an excuse, is still an actual excuse. It was obvious that Haley had to adapt his plan because of it, and I think he decided to use the first quarter of the season as extended off-season. He used pre-season as an extension of the off-season to work on conditioning and discipline, all the while scouting 90 guys in front of him.
Everything got moved back 4 weeks. But then came the unexpected injuries to star players, valuable players. Another over-used excuse that is still, nonetheless an actual excuse. We saw a four-game winning streak….a byproduct of Haley’s plan. The developing phase was on, just a month later than normal.
Seeing the team in preseason, I came to believe that this team would actually start to develop and improve in the third quarter of the season, which just happens to be the beginning of the impossible gauntlet.
I got attacked all preseason for being critical of Cassel. I got called a hater and other things for stating that this team was a 6 win team. I stated numerous times that a realistic range of wins for the chiefs was 4-8 wins, with anything less being a disappointment and anything more being a pretty amazing showing. 8-8 would have been really good to me. That was before all the injuries. If you’d have told me we would have lost Charles, Moeaki, Cassel, and Berry, I probably wouldn’t have even bothered to watch the season. However, the team still has heart. They’re playing a lot of backups (and having to develop them on the fly). This will make them better in the long run. They’ll be battle-tested (pun intended?).
But the depth is horrible. It’s a weakness, and it is glaring. Which leads me to my point about Pioli’s four quarter method. I think Pioli has the same four quarter method as Haley. I think he broke the rebuilding of the Chiefs up into four years. Before he had the job, he told Hunt that the team was out-of-shape….just by looking at the film.
Year one: get guys into shape. See if they can become disciplined. Weed out guys who won’t buy in.
Year two: get leaders. Add athleticism to the team (speed).
Year three: add competition to starters. Add depth (development players).
Year four: after a few draft classes begin to develop (and you can see if a guy is dedicated), begin to dabble in free agency to round out the team into a playoff team.
This is how I see it. But then again, none of us know what Pioli’s master plan is. We’re just left to look at what he is doing and try to interpret it.
I’m fully behind Pioli and Haley, however, I’m not an delusional homer. If there isn’t clear action next free agency and draft, and if there isn’t success in the season next year, I will be a lot less patient with them. One big * is going to be QB play. I’ve never liked Cassel as a qb. He had a good statistical season last year, while never improving his weaknesses. And they were still unfixed this year. However, as bad as he was this year statistically, and not improving those weaknesses…yet, if ever, I still have to give him credit for his leadership and toughness. I’ve also gotta believe that a good portion of his horrible season, maybe even his gun-shyness, most likely is due to the early season rib injury. I think it was a lot worse than they let on. And I think he was probably playing through awful pain up to this week.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 11:07 AM CST reply actions
this is a real boring ass post…..sorry fellas….but the only reason Matt Cassel was any good is because he had a RB performing at a HALL OF FAME LEVEL to fall back on….No matter how you twist it the bulk of the talent on our team was brought in by the previous regime….and point blank period….that regime was forced out before there personnel was allowed 2 develop…..I give all the credit to HALEY for the teams improvement he was able 2 quicken the development of JC,DJ,and Dbowe which made the chiefs a solid team….but 2 say that the teams rise to slightly above average is all due 2 PIOLI and HALEy would be a falsehood…HERM was given little to work with and had building blocks in place to do the same thing that HALEY is doing now….
Albert, Bowe, Charles, Dorsey, DJ, Hali, Flowers, Carr, Colquitt, Battle, Richardson, McGraw
Asamoah, Hudson, Moeaki, Baldwin, Jackson, Houston, Berry, Lewis, Arenas, Brown, Sheffield, Bailey, Powe, Stanzi, Succop….Breaston, Lilja, Gaither, Gregg, Cassel, McClain, Jones, Pope, O’Connell, Wiegmann….etc.
Forgive me if I left off some of Herm’s guys who are still on the roster.
There is no doubt that Carl & Herm brought in 9 solid starters, though that in part was addition by subtracting a very, very valuable Jared Allen. Give them credit for what they got for him, but they still gave him up.
Stil, there are more starters from the Pioli/Haley era. It remains to be seen if the majority will “just” be solid players or if they can reach that same level as the “9.”
You say all of this even though we are three years removed from the Carl/Herm era. That means 3 years longer of looks at “their” guys. So if you are suggesting that we just stop complaining for a few years to see how this year’s draft is, I agree. Great point! We’ll have to wait for Haley to coach up the class like he did Herm’s fat, lazy, unconditioned and undisciplined team.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
riggedy riggedy riggedy REC'D!
particularly the last sentence.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 18, 2011 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Think back to the time of Queen Carl
He was a great GM with all the right moves when he had three coaching from Marty. Carl could do no wrong. That all started to fall apart when Gunther took over. Vermeil gave Carl new life for a bit, but it was clear Carl had no interest in investing for the future, and the a-bomb of old age hit this team with total devastation. Herm convinced Carl to do the right thing and start from scratch, but the attitude of Herm that last season was enough for ownership to see a wholesale change was needed. Fans weren’t coming to games lunge they used to, the quality of the product hadn’t been there long enough.
Could this path of Carl be the same route Pioli follows? If the “success” of the head coach falls on the Quarterback more often than not, then the GMs success falls on his coach just as often, which likely becomes a cycle for everyone, starting with the QB. If Haley doesn’t work out, Pioli should be given the chance of finding at least one more head coach before he himself is on the hot seat. You want to keep your butt from the fryer, Pioli, find a quarterback asap.
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Nov 18, 2011 11:25 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Example off free agency working...Chicago Bears
Trade for Cutler, sign Peppers, go to NFC Championship game
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 18, 2011 11:36 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Soooo
Trade for Manning, sign some pass rusher, go to AFC Championship game?
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
Yes
I believe if we did those two things and didn’t lose anyone, we’d be a contender.
Crap, I believe if we just did the FIRST one and got our guys back we’d be a contender…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
by MNchiefsfan on Nov 18, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
Wonder what it would take to get to the big game though
Hasn’t worked out for many teams to go from bottom feeders to instant SB contenders year in and year out
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 18, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
^this
but getting Manning seems almost like a silly dream. I hate being a realist. It makes living in America frustrating.
Other than Manning, though, who? What pass rusher do you have in mind?
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
I don't understand this love for signing Manning
The dude has a neck injury and is 35 years old. So an ideal situation, we get 4 years out of him. It will take him 2 to teach the rest of the team his offense to where they fully grasp it. So that’s 2 solid years out of Manning.
Oh btw, I hope we sign an entirely new O-Line, b/c if you stick Manning behind ours, he won’t just have a neck injury, his damn head will probably fall off.
because he is 1000X better than Cassel. way better than Palko. better than stanzi right now, but would be a good guy for him to learn from for a couple years or so
There wouldn’t be any “his” offense. Manning never had a running back with the skills of Jamaal Charles. Peyton Manning with Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston and Moeaki + Charles running the ball= one hell of a play action nightmare.
KC’s line is only a player or so away from being fairly solid. Manning gets rid of the ball much better than Cassel…mainly because he reads defenses much, much better. He makes decisions faster. Many of Cassel’s sacks are on him (broken record alert: go check out Cassel’s sack numbers while in New England!).
Also, Manning demands the most out of his receivers. He’s basically a HOF QB + QB coach + offensive coordinator + WR coach. He has a tireless work ethic and demands his receivers to learn the routes and to work on timing with him. I don’t care if he is 45. He would be a big upgrade at the QB position and would immensely improve all facets of the offense.
Charles would be able to run wildly. Defenses couldn’t key in to stop Charles because they’d actually be afraid of our passing game. Haley wouldn’t be so afraid of his QB that he felt the need to be conservative.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
I know what Manning is as a QB
I don’t deny that he’s one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time, but the whole thing stinks of the Joe Montana experiment. Sure we were a good team with JoMo, but that was good for what, 2 years? I’m more interested in finding our Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger (Minus the raping part, of course) or Rodgers via the draft, and getting 10+ years out of him.
Give me a team with a solid foundation for winning where we can keep swapping pieces and be successful. I’m not interested in a flash in the pan team just trying to win a couple playoff games before sinking back into irrelevancy.
by aasukisuki on Nov 18, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I agree
you hear everyone tired of retreads, and yet Manning is a “must”.. The guy isnt even guaranteed to play ever again and if he does. not much left in tank. Nobody is a sure thing for a superbowl and if he came here and dint win a championship, we would be set back yet again. Then what do we do after him? I dont want to just win once. I want to be competitive for years to come
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
How would we be set back?!
You want Cassel back? There is no superbowl hope there. A rookie qb would take a year or two of sitting as well. So what? Why not take a chance if he’s healthy and let Stanzi learn from him and then take over?
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:05 PM CST up reply actions
Yes having stanzi sit behind him for a few years was mentioned from another guy
and I thought it was a good idea……I never even mentioned Cassel in that reply so not sure what your talking about on that topic. I would rather draft our own guy and Stanzi isnt a for sure lock either(though I hope he is). So say we get manning, 2 to 3 years goes by and we win nothing or he doesnt have it anymore due to age/ past surgery. Stanzi doesnt end up becoming anything and now we are 3 years later and back to square 1. That is how we would be set back. I would only like the Manning trade if Haley/Pioli see enough out of Stanzi to think he could be our future QB
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 9:02 PM CST up reply actions
Exactly why I'd keep team-building.
I keep looking at Kurt Warner, and how great he was on teams that were well-built, and how he couldn’t crack the starting lineup – even as the incumbent – on teams that were losing key pieces.
And this is in spite of my Cassel-faith being at its lowest ebb, ever. More and more he reminds me of a Steve Bono, who looked great in a great situation, and couldn’t win a playoff game in KC.
would of ≠ would've
and a rookie QB doesnt always sit his first year
plenty of proof to back that up but to lazy to go get it.
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 9:03 PM CST up reply actions
"stinks of the Joe Montana experiment"
You mean the Joe Montana experiment that almost got us to a Super Bowl for the fist time in 20+ years?
The experiment that was the last time we won a playoff game (and our only trip ever to the AFC Championship)?
Give me a team with a solid foundation for winning where we can keep swapping pieces and be successful.
That WAS a team that had a foundation for winning and kept on doing so for 3 years, even while fumbling around for a replacement for Montana.
The fact that we couldn’t get our shit together AFTER Joe is not Joe’s fault – that would be Carl etc. who did not prep for the fallout. In 1994, Montana’s last year we drafted Steve Matthews in the 6th round – nice work there (granted ’94 was not a good year for QBs – hey, coulda had Trent Green in the 7th round in ’93 instead of Danan Huges). In ’94 we dropped Dave Krieg but had Steve Bono and still had Matt Blundin. Bono did have a good year in 95 – and we had Gannon on the pine. Bono started to shit it up in 96 so in 97 we drop him and pick up Elvis Grrrrrrrbac and Billy Joe Motherfuckin Tolliver…. all the while Gannon continues to sit. In 98 Gannon gets his shot when the “consonated one” goes down and well… we all know the end of that story. It is also worth noting that not a single one of the QBs I listed above other than Shane Matthews and Matt Blundin (nice choice in the 2nd round with that one) were drafted by the Chiefs.
Gannon goes on to rock the house with Oakland after we diarrhea’d all over that situation.
Mind you, again, even with these gems – we still go 13-3, 9-7 and 13-3 the years following Montana. So even though we were good for 2 years while he was here, we were still good afterward for a few years. If we had actually held on to Gannon we may have had another 4-5 years of solid winning.
I’m more interested in finding our Manning, Brady, Roethlisberger or Rodgers via the draft, and getting 10+ years out of him.
Of course you are, who isn’t? The fact of the matter is it’s not that simple. You don’t just go draft an early QB and viola you’re on the road to 10 years of instant success. The point with Manning is he gives you the ability to win now while you prep for the future without him. If you draft that guy early and in 2-3 years he’s not panning out you can look for another solution. If you draft him and start him right out and he doesn’t pan out you’ve just shat away those years. There’s a reason teams pick up veteran starting QBs and it’s not because they expect 10+ years of life out of them – they want the possibility to win now while they continue to work toward the future.
He’s a buffer… he’s insurance… and by the way, he’s still damn good and you might just win some games while he’s here.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 18, 2011 5:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's the point
We aren’t a team that’s going 13-3, 9-7 and 13-3 without a Peyton Manning caliber QB. If that were the case, then I’d be all over bringing one of the greatest QB’s of all time in, even if it is for a few years.
Also, when did the NFL start giving out “Almost went to the Super Bowl trophies”? Mark Sanchez has 2 of those, we should just trade the Jets for him.
I also feel that Cassel is good enough (he’s not a great QB, but he’s not the terrible QB that some of the commenters on this site try to make him out to be). I’d much rather take our QB of the future with our (more than likely) top 10 pick this year, and have him learn behind Cassel for a year or 2, than trade that pick for Peyton Manning with no plan for the future.
I'm sorry but this makes no sense!
I also feel that Cassel is good enough
But Manning isn’t?
I’d much rather take our QB of the future with our (more than likely) top 10 pick this year, and have him learn behind Cassel for a year or 2
I’d much rather think about getting Manning and have Stanzi learn behind him for a year or 2.
Unless we’re in position for Luck, no thanks.
Manning, Stanzi or Luck. Hell no to Cassel and a rookie other than Luck.
10-6 last year with Cassel…Manning improves that team by at least 3 wins.
Manning on next year’s team is a hell of a lot better than Cassel starting for next year’s team.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:13 PM CST up reply actions
Then I misunderstood your point
I took this –
we were a good team with JoMo, but that was good for what, 2 years?and this –
I’m not interested in a flash in the pan team just trying to win a couple playoff games before sinking back into irrelevancy.to be your point – and you were insinuating that Montana came in and helped us be good for 2 years and then we slid back to irrelevancy. Almost suggesting that picking up Montana was a bad idea or that it set the team back.
This is why I went through the verbal barf illustrating the contrary – pointing out that the front office couldn’t figure out how to address the QB appropriately after that. My implication was that just because we pick up Manning doesn’t mean that we’d get a couple years of being good out of him and then immediately decline afterward – this is only the case if the administration cannot appropriately handle the transition.
Don’t be silly with the “almost went to the Super Bowl trophy” – this was again just to point out that the last time we did anything at all in the post-season was during the “Joe Montana experiment”. Also, using phrases like “stinks of” and calling it an “experiment” paints it in a negative light. This was just to accentuate the positive.
I’m still not quite sure why you think this team has to already be a strong team before considering adding Manning. The Colts with Manning were: 10-6, 14-2, 12-4, 13-3, 12-4, 14-2, 12-4, 12-4, 10-6. Without him they’re 0-10 with no sign of improving. But adding him to a team that is 5-11, or 6-10 or 7-9 would be ill advised? How about a team with that record that was decimated by injury? How about a team that is a more complete team than one that went 10-6 the year before?
How about the New Orleans Saints before they added Drew Brees? 8-8, 8-8 and 3-13 – was that a fundamentally strong team before adding a high level QB? Took them 4 years to win a Super Bowl with Drew and he wasn’t as highly regarded as Peyton. Granted he was younger with a more years ahead.
Let me be clear here. I am NOT in favor of trading for Manning, I absolutely agree with you on that point. I would only be interested if he were cut by Indy and hit the open market. I don’t think the reward outweighs the risk when it comes to a trade. In this situation (no trade, but FA pickup) then we can follow the exact same process you list above – draft QB of the future (we hope, no guarantee) and have him learn behind Manning for a year or 2. There’s no way in hell that we’d be better off letting the guy develop behind Cassel for 1-2 years. I’d also suggest that there’s no way in hell that we’d have a better record with Cassel at QB than Manning.
I’ll take “possibility of winning the big game” (Manning), over “slim/no chance of winning the big game” (Cassel) any day. Which is pretty damn close to what the choice was back in 1993 – shot at winning it all (Montana) vs. good luck getting it done (Krieg). I do believe this team is strong enough that adding him would be a huge difference maker, and if handled correctly the team would continue to succeed after he has gone.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 18, 2011 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
If we are talking about picking him up in FA that's a completely different story
I would be all for that. That’s a low risk, potentially high reward situation. We lose nothing but money, which we have plenty of. I’m just arguing against this idea floating around that we should trade players/draft picks for him.
As far as the Drew Brees comparison, it’s not the same. Drew Brees was signed in his prime, and just like you said, it took him 4 years to win that superbowl. Do you think Peyton Manning is going to lead the Chiefs to a Superbowl at the age of 39?
Also, if Manning were cut by the Colts, he’d have to pass through waivers to us (not impossible, but highly unlikely). If nobody claimed him off of waivers, then he’s going to sign with the team that gives him the best chance to go to the SB, and I honestly don’t think we are that team.
Cut now or released at the end of the season?
I wasn’t aware that waiver priority mattered or even existed in the offseason. Free agency is free agency – and if he’s released that’s what he’d be.
As far as Drew Brees goes – I’d say the Saints, when he took over there, were a shittier team than the Chiefs are now. I honestly believe that Manning could take us deep into the playoffs in year 1. I also believe that if we only had 3 years with him, that we could be in a position to go to a SB for at least 1 of those.
Just curious – what teams are “superbowl ready” that don’t already have a QB? Or at least, which teams would he more likely choose over KC? Tough for me to think of many.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 18, 2011 8:46 PM CST up reply actions
I'd let some other team take Manning. I think the Chiefs have bigger fish to fry.
I don’t think Manning would even want to come PLAY for a team constituted like the Chiefs are.
would of ≠ would've
my bad you're right.
Not because it’s the off season, but because he has more than 4 years of experience, he wouldn’t be subject to waivers.
I think the obvious team would be the 49ers. They are 7-1 with Alex “Game Manager” Smith. That being said, I think the Chiefs are probably in the same category that Miami, and Tennessee are in, which I would say is in a better position than Denver, Washington, and Seattle.
Again, I would be thrilled if Manning signed here as a free agent. I’m just opposed to trading a first round pick for him.
Elway won the SB at 38
so its possible
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 9:08 PM CST up reply actions
It's amazing some people don't get this! ^
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:07 PM CST up reply actions
Brady and Rodgers both learned on the bench for a few years...
Manning won one game his first season.
I have no problem with Manning for two years.
Without injuries or this year’s acquisitions, last year’s team went to the playoffs. Exchange Manning for Cassel, and add in Baldwin and Breaston. And then tell me that team wouldn’t win playoff games.
Stanzi could end up a good qb, benefitting from sitting and learning from Manning. But I’m a huge Stanzi fan, so I’m fine with him starting next year. However, playing devil’s advocate has made me almost want to really get Manning.
I’m not interested in a flash in the pan team either. And I didn’t advocate one. But like I said, manning allows Stanzi time to get ready, provides a qb coach, WR coach, and offensive coordinator all in one. When he is finished/Stanzi is ready, Stanzi goes in.
I don’t see a free agent starting qb, nor do I see any upcoming rookie qbs that interest me more than Stanzi, other than Luck.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:02 PM CST up reply actions
That was a different team.
Montana came into a team that was 11-5, 10-6 and 10-6. That was a winning team. This current incarnation is not a winning team. We are not 1 piece away from being a Superbowl team.
We weren't then, either.
Loved getting Montana, but I would’ve liked just adding WRs and OLs to the team that Montana joined, even more than the man himself.
would of ≠ would've
I think we need upgrades at Right Tackle, Center, Nose Tackle, 1 or 2 Linebackers, QB and depth at nearly every position except Cornerback, and running back (assuming JC comes back 100% and Battle has proven to the coaches that he can replace TJ as our power back)
I understand we may have our future Nose Tackle and Center on the squad right now with Powe and Hudson, but if that’s the argument, then you have to assume that Stanzi is our future QB.
With that said, I think we focus on those other positions, Number 1 being that Right Tackle.
Not necessarily.
Just because we have Powe and Hudson doesn’t automatically mean that Stanzi is the future QB.
The QB is the most important roster spot. Period. There’s a good chance that a 5th round QB isn’t going to pan out. We’re willing to risk the most coveted spot on the team to a 5th round pick? Not having a back up plan could do more harm than good.
Hudson was a 2nd round pick, and was one of the top center prospects in the draft. OL, especially high round talents, are generally the most successful draft picks in the NFL. they rarely bust. Weiggs still has some left in the tank, but it’s running out. We might start to see Hudson take some snaps this year. They’re doing the same thing with Hudson as they did with Asamoah. It will work.
Powe is an unknown, but looked pretty good in preseason, and fell several rounds in the draft due to his learning disability. Gregg is 35, and if push comes to shove, we might be able to get one more serviceable year out of him if Powe isn’t the answer.
We don’t HAVE to replace LBs. It would be a luxury to do so. We have a solid LB corp with DJ, Hali, Houston and Belcher.
RT needs replaced, but using a first to do so is overkill.
I don’t believe this team is as full of holes as you seem to think. Again, I’ll say it: we’re being held back by shitty QB play and injuries to our best players.
That's the point i'm making
All 3 of those guys are unknowns, so it’s hard to make the argument that we don’t need a NT and C because we have young guys waiting to go, but then not apply that logic to Stanzi.
I agree that injuries have killed this season, but those injuries shouldn’t stop us if we really are a truly great team. Look at the Packers last year. That team had major injury issues, but had enough depth to keep them in the hunt.
I know, I know, they have Aaron Rodgers. I get it. But he’s not the only player on the team.
I don’t believe this team is as close to winning the Superbowl as you seem to think. Again, I’ll say it: we’re being held back by lack of depth exposed by injuries by our best players.
Yeah, we're 2 1/2 years into a rebuild.
Of course we don’t have depth. But you can get depth in later draft rounds or free agency. No need to use a first rounder on depth.
But our starting roster is pretty damn good, and when healthy I’d put it up against any other team in the NFL.
I mean come on. How many other teams have an elite RB that compares to Barry Sanders? And a rookie SS that had a crazy rookie year, and is projected to be one of the best safeties to ever play? And an OLB like Tamba Hali? And an ILB like DJ? And a ball hawk FS like Lewis? And not one, but two top 15 CBs? And a WR corp like Bowe, Baldwin and Breaston?
This starting roster is stacked. The one position that is obviously a huge hole on the team is QB. Do you seriously doubt that a real top 10 QB plugged into this team wouldn’t make it an instant Super Bowl Contender?
I SERIOUSLY doubt that
Like I said, I think we are 3-5 starters and alot of depth from being serious contenders.
I’m not saying we don’t have alot of talented players, because we do. We have some of the best skilled position players in the league. I don’t have trust in our trench play. I don’t have trust in the backups that come into sub for our starters.
The thing about QB being the most important guy is that I want a good situation for any QB
I’m spending big for. Cassel was understandable, because they were trying to set a tone, and there was at least hope he could hang thru the championship. Doesn’t mean that I’d be against taking a risk on a high-end QB, but I don’t think I’d be in a huge hurry to put him on the field, until I saw something closer to dominant up front.
I can easily see Hudson being the long-term answer at C. But I definitely want to see something bigger and more bloodthirsty than “Oh, was I supposed to block that guy?” Lilja.
Looking at the film, again, I’m not so keen on Jovan Belcher, anymore. For the first time, I’m really starting to see SILB as a weak link in the front 7, and I’m serious about getting real upgrade, there. I’d also like a defensive coordinator who uses his 270-lb LOLB like a 270-lb LOLB, and quit trying to make him an oversized safety.
would of ≠ would've
we have enough 4-3 talent on the line .Good bye haley
Hello Andy Reid?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 10:34 PM CST up reply actions
No doubt.
Besides, Pioli’s first KC draft pick was a 3-4 guy. I don’t think he’s eager to switch to the 4-3.
ya that pass rush is fierce with there 9 sacks
But you are right.This fierce pass rush is so much better than the 10 Herm put together.The idiot,stupid Herm has 10 sacks.Meanwhile,the genius Romeo Cromell is in pace for 16
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:09 PM CST up reply actions
RAC's defense isn't built on D-Line pressure
It’s built on D-Line occupying blockers and the linebackers applying pressure. Unfortunately we don’t seem to have the LB personnel to make that happen consistently.
Ya ,a problem don't you think?
Hence,no personnel for a 3-4
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
Again. Preaching extremes.
we have some personnel for a 3-4, just not a complete personnel for the 3-4.
1 guy ,1 guy that can rush the passerIN a 3-4,Ithought that was the point
Pittsburg has 3 in the LB core alone
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
KC brought in good candidates for such a role.
The issue is in how rarely they’re utilized in that fashion.
Rush LBs need to do a lot of rushing. The pressure obtained from their rushing is what confuses blocking schemes and gives the 3 down linemen more opportunities against single-blocking.
But you have to establish that downhill mentality in the minds of the opposing offense. Then, they start dialing-up plays that will work against it, and those are the short passes in back of your blitzers and in front of your safeties. THAT’s when dropping Houston into zone creates problems for a pass dialed-up to drop in behind him.
Crennel does very little to impose a blitz-beating mindset in the offense. I like the 3-4 personnel they have, but I don’t see them being used the way I’d like them to see. This KC defense, the way it’s being employed, looks like a very ugly hybrid between Cover-2 and 3-4, enjoying none of the advantages of either.
If you’re goin’ cover-2, you need very very good pressure from your front 4. Nope.
If you’re goin’ 3-4, you need to confuse the offense as to who’s coming and who’s dropping. Haven’t done that, either.
In EITHER form of defense, you establish yourself by getting pressure, first and foremost, goading the offense into a style to counter strong pressure. Without that being established, it becomes a simple matter of targeting weaknesses down the field, and with Sabby, Jon, and Reshard on the field, there are plenty to choose from.
would of ≠ would've
you are wrong
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
Care to wager on that?
If Haley is still here in 2012 the you have to put:
“Tomahawk29 is a genius”
And if he’s not here in 2012, I’ll do the same
Oh my god yesssss
I have no problem with that what so ever.If I’m wrong ,so what.If you are wrong I will hunt you down .DEAL!!!!!!!
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
Don't fall for it, saints_chiefsfan1979.
“I’ll do the same” may just mean “Tomahawk29 is a genius” in Tomahawk29’s signature. Make sure you get clarity on this.
BTW, I’m pretty much disagreeing with your thinking in many of your above comments.
would of ≠ would've
I think this Offense is a good situation for a QB.
Last year they were the 12th least sacked team. This year, before the last two games they were the 10th least sacked team (and played top ten pass rushing teams OAK, MIN and DET). They’re 15th right now.
We’ve got 3, not just one or two, but THREE very talented WRs. One of them just led the NFL in TD receptions last year.
We have a top 10 running game, even without Charles. Battle is averaging 4.6 ypc, even when everyone and their mother knows we’re running the ball.
At what point do we stop trying to say “gotta make the guys around the QB better if want to succeed” rather than finally figuring out that the QB sucks ass? I know. I was in that boat. I wanted to give Cassel a good opportunity. But it’s apparent that Cassel was/is more of a liability to this team than an equal contributor.
Interesting stat...
Last year the Colts gave up the least sacks in the NFL. This year they’re 15th.
Kinda reminds you of how NE was the 5th least sacked team in 2007… then the 5th MOST sacked in 2008… then back down to the 3rd least sacked team in 2009.
But yeah, it’s not like an elite QB can make your OL pass protection look better or anything.
As I have said
Haley is 3 games ahead of Herm in terms of wins.Yet,we defend him.I don’t get it. I agree about the qb.I have said that all along.But,now I have a voice so I am glad,
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:28 PM CST up reply actions
Chiefs had a good plan against the Raiders. And it fit what Cassel could do.
Throw the quick timing route. Don’t think. Just land on your back foot and fire coming forward. It’s still something that could work for Cassel, but I think defenses since then have looked for that, and Cassel didn’t have what it took to take the next step against the counter.
Where Cassel seems, to ME, to be weakest, is in making decisions AFTER the snap. Sure, you had the one thing dialed-up, but the bodies ain’t breakin’ that way, and the QB needs to see and then exploit, the developing weakness, or use movement to allow a weakness to develop. I don’t see a lot of that in Cassel’s game. It’s either what he was looking for, pre-snap, or he’s running, or it’s an incompletion.
would of ≠ would've
only 2 qb's 36 or older have won a Super Bowl
Jim Plunkett and John Elway
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 7:05 PM CST up reply actions
And 0 QBs, any age,
Have gotten us to an AFC Hampionship game since our last 36 year old hall of famer.
Ya but I am talking Super Bowl
Which should be the conversation/goal
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 7:37 PM CST up reply actions
And you can't get to a SB without winning playoff games,
Which, again, we haven’t done since that one 36 year old QB
We agree ,hells bells
The numbers say Manning isn’t the answer,we need to draft/develop a qb in the 1st round
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 7:44 PM CST up reply actions
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did I mention yes?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
Lol... Not got Luck,
Although I’m not necessarily against that route either. I’m talking about Manning still.
Lol I understand
I want this team to get a Super Bowl so bad it kills me.I have a life ,a career ,a girlfriend etc.I don’t know what other teams you are a fan of,but there is nothing better (other than sex) than winning a championship.When Tracy Porter ran back that int,I went nuts.I ’’Tebowed’’,and honestly had to hold back my tears.I was at a SB party,and people looked at me like I was nuts.But,they didn’t wear the Saints xxl athletic dept tee to school.They didn’t get made fun of when I wore my Saints hoodie to school.I can’t explain the feeling of what a championship feels like.If my schedule was condusive, I would have flown to NOLA for the after game party.A month later ,I was still happy ,smiling and living life .I want that feeling so much again now,that is why I am So passionate about this team.I want all of us/me to feel like I did back Feb7 2010.It is a very moving expierience
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
Your not guaranteed 4 years
or even 1 year at that. I think that move would set us back when its all said and done. If this was 3 years ago, I would be singing a different tune
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
4 years is what was brought up to the guy I replied to.
And honestly, the cost is what it all revolves around. Considering the neck injury, and all that, if we’re talking 2 firsts and a 2nd or something like that, I’d say hell no. But if it’s just one first?
You'd give up a first round pick for 35 year old, coming off neck surgery, Peyton Manning
It’s good for us that you’re not the Chief’s GM because that’s absurd.
by aasukisuki on Nov 18, 2011 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, let's look at this, assuming best case scenario.
We trade our 2012 First Round draft pick for a 36 year old (by that time) Peyton Manning who has been cleared by doctors from a neck injury that sidelined him the entire season. Fortune smiles upon the Chiefs, and he’s fully healed, and agrees to significantly rework his contract to come play for the Kansas City Chiefs.
We enter the draft with a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 2 7th round picks. So realistically we’re drafting maybe 2 starters (2nd and 3rd rounders), 1 or 2 future starters, and 3 developmental players.
Realistically we need 2 upgrades on the o-line just to keep Peyton Manning upright, Center and Right Tackle. Let’s hope/assume Rodney Hudson earns the starting job. He’ll be a first year starter in front of a 36 year old QB. Now, let’s spend that 2nd round pick on a RT (because we’re not going to get an upgrade over Albert in the 2nd). We’re left with maybe 1 pick left for an instant impact player.
Do you honestly think that scenario leads us to the promised land? I just don’t see it. I don’t see Peyton agreeing to come here in the first place, I don’t see him restructuring his MASSIVE deal, and I don’t think we’re a QB and Right Tackle away from having a contender.
However, I feel were are 2 solid draft classes / free agency rounds from having a very competitive team that’s build on a winning foundation.
by aasukisuki on Nov 18, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, I do.
Hudson is getting the Asamoah treatment, he’ll start next year. You’re also leaving out free agency, through which Pioli has gotten solid pieces for the last 2 years.
Our roster would look like:
Offense:
WR – Bowe, Baldwin, Breason,
TE – Moeaki
RB – Charles, Battle
OL – Albert, Lilja (who, BTW, played with him before), Hudson, Asamoah and a new 2nd round/free agent RT.
QB – Peyton Manning
Defense:
DL – Dorsey, Powe, Jackson
LB – DJ, Hali, Houston, Belcher/replacement
DB – Carr, Flowers, Berry, Lewis
That would be a pretty freaking impressive roster. We’d have a pro bowl: QB, RB, WR, SS, OLB, ILB
PLUS potential pro bowl talent in our TE (Moeaki), RG (Asamoah), FS(Lewis) and CB (Flowers).
We already have TOP TIER talent at multiple positions ALL OVER this roster… the QB position is holding us back.
Ok I REALLY doubt we are getting Manning, ever
but yes, that would be impressive. Side note though,Its not just the QB play that is holding us back. The play calling is shitty. We need an OC who knows what the hell is going on. But, if we have Manning, we dont really need an OC cuz he practically calls his own plays(tempting, but still dont want to waste a pick). Our defense isnt really holding their own out there either.
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
I doubt we get him too...
But it’s worth at least being in the talks for trading for him, as long as the price is right.
Peyton Manning doubles as an OC. Two birds, one stone.
And as qb coach and receiver coach
He makes his guys run routes flawlessly and have their timing down right.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:18 PM CST up reply actions
I will concede that roster is the business
But that’s with the assumption that Powe/Houston live up to the hype and we lose nobody to injury.
I just think moving a 1st round pick for a QB who’s coming off a major injury and is on the downside of his career would end up doing more harm than good in the long run.
Surely karma is in our favor...
After this BS this year we should be injury free for at least the next 3 years… right?
How much did Montana slow us down? Not much. He was the last QB to win us a playoff game, and had us on the door step of the promised land. The starting roster is looking pretty good, and I think we might be able to risk a 1st at this point. what would we use it on? A RT? A LB? pffft… let’s gamble on a QB.
Why not.
It worked with Leaf…and Leinert…and Quinn…and…
How silly of us to trade for a chance at a 3 year run if the top shelf QBs are gone when we pick.
Like Stanzi?
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
I'm completely fine with Stanzi
I like Stanzi. I live in Iowa, I’ve seen him play, I think he will be a good QB in this league.
I don’t think he needs to sit behind Peyton Manning, who we have theoretically traded a 1st round draft pick for, for 2 years for that to happen.
But you'd rather risk that first round pick on an unknown rookie qb
Id rather get the known. Plus, Stanzi could very well be the qbotf.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
Your known commodity isn't a known commodity
We would be trading for 36 year old QB coming off of a major neck injury who hasn’t played football in nearly 2 years.
If i’m taking a risk with a first round pick, it’s going to be for the player with the higher ceiling.
Isn't that what most of us Chiefs fans have been bitching about?
That we never draft OUR guy. WE are always getting other peoples shit. Sooner or later we have to use a first round pick on a QB, nothing else seems to be working. Nothing is ever “known” in the NFL.
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 9:17 PM CST up reply actions
Chiefs traded a first round pick for Montana at 37 years old, coming off an elbow injury,
And got us to the AFC Championship game.
And our records in 1990, 1991 and 1992
were 11-5, 10-6 and 10-6 respectively. This is not that situation. We do not have a team that’s a serious contender each year just missing that one piece.
I also remember a great joke from that time. What’s the difference between Joe Montana and a Dollar Bill? You can get 4 quarters out of a dollar.
whats the difference between you and Joe,
Dollar Bills
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 6:20 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
10-6 in 2010,
Then we lost our elite level RB and SS.
The situations might not be all that different if we didn’t lose our 2 best players and a stud TE.
I dont know
Id rather spend that first rounder on a qb that we can possibly have for the next decade
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
Suppose we end up with the 15th pick.
With IND, MIA, SEA and WAS picking before us.
There wouldn’t be a promising prospect left after Luck, Barkley, Griffin and maybe even Jones goes off the board.
Given those circumstances would you not give up a first for 3-4 years of elite QB play and REAL shot at a SB?
If he had 4 years left, I would think about it
but I would rather give Stanzi a shot and use that 15th pick to fill another hole we have. Maybe another LB or NT.Its hard not to think we will be picking well before the 15th pick though. Also hard to think the colts wouldnt keep Manning even if they drafted luck.
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 6:13 PM CST up reply actions
Or... we could have Stanzi learn from one of the greatest QBs ever for a few more years.
Worked for Rodgers…
Umm.. you got me there
didnt think of that
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
"Hey... Peyton?
yeah, it’s Scott Pioli….
Scott.
Pioli.
I’m the GM of the Chiefs.
Kansas City.
KANSAS CITY CHIEFS.
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.We’re going to trade our 1st round pick to the colts for your rights, but we’re also going to need you to restructure that deal of yours. Oh, we’re also going to need you to mentor our future QB.
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.We’re going to trade our 1st round pick to the colts for your rights, but we’re also going to need you to restructure that deal of yours. Oh, we’re also going to need you to mentor our future QB.What? Where was our QB of the future drafted? 5th Round.
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.We’re going to trade our 1st round pick to the colts for your rights, but we’re also going to need you to restructure that deal of yours. Oh, we’re also going to need you to mentor our future QB.What? Where was our QB of the future drafted? 5th Round.What do you mean you’d rather not have to start over here, learning completely new lingo or teaching the existing offense your scheme?
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.We’re going to trade our 1st round pick to the colts for your rights, but we’re also going to need you to restructure that deal of yours. Oh, we’re also going to need you to mentor our future QB.What? Where was our QB of the future drafted? 5th Round.What do you mean you’d rather not have to start over here, learning completely new lingo or teaching the existing offense your scheme?What, you don’t want to have your legacy resting in the hands of a 5th round pick instead of a 1st rounder?
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.We’re going to trade our 1st round pick to the colts for your rights, but we’re also going to need you to restructure that deal of yours. Oh, we’re also going to need you to mentor our future QB.What? Where was our QB of the future drafted? 5th Round.What do you mean you’d rather not have to start over here, learning completely new lingo or teaching the existing offense your scheme?What, you don’t want to have your legacy resting in the hands of a 5th round pick instead of a 1st rounder?Tell you what, we’ll also have Todd Haley yell at you alot.
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.We’re going to trade our 1st round pick to the colts for your rights, but we’re also going to need you to restructure that deal of yours. Oh, we’re also going to need you to mentor our future QB.What? Where was our QB of the future drafted? 5th Round.What do you mean you’d rather not have to start over here, learning completely new lingo or teaching the existing offense your scheme?What, you don’t want to have your legacy resting in the hands of a 5th round pick instead of a 1st rounder?Tell you what, we’ll also have Todd Haley yell at you alot.Deal?
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.We’re going to trade our 1st round pick to the colts for your rights, but we’re also going to need you to restructure that deal of yours. Oh, we’re also going to need you to mentor our future QB.What? Where was our QB of the future drafted? 5th Round.What do you mean you’d rather not have to start over here, learning completely new lingo or teaching the existing offense your scheme?What, you don’t want to have your legacy resting in the hands of a 5th round pick instead of a 1st rounder?Tell you what, we’ll also have Todd Haley yell at you alot.Deal?Hello?
Yeah.. I used to be in New England…NO I’M NOT IN THE UFL NOW!Listen, I know you are bummed about your 2010 season, and that the Colts are going to draft your heir apparent, Andrew Luck, in the upcoming draft. I assume the colts have asked you to restructure the monster deal they gave you and have asked you to mentor Andrew over the next couple years, but I’ve got a better idea.We’re going to trade our 1st round pick to the colts for your rights, but we’re also going to need you to restructure that deal of yours. Oh, we’re also going to need you to mentor our future QB.What? Where was our QB of the future drafted? 5th Round.What do you mean you’d rather not have to start over here, learning completely new lingo or teaching the existing offense your scheme?What, you don’t want to have your legacy resting in the hands of a 5th round pick instead of a 1st rounder?Tell you what, we’ll also have Todd Haley yell at you alot.Deal?Hello?Hello?"
LOL...
Like Peyton gives a shit about the “legacy” he leaves of the person behind him. And I’m pretty sure that Peyton might be able to be coaxed over here because of Bowe, Baldwin, Breaston, Charles and Moeaki. Any QB in the NFL would kill for those 5 guys. He might shatter records with them.
Thats one long repetitive convo there.
sadly I read the whole thing
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 9:21 PM CST up reply actions
I think Pioli just likes to talk...
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 9:00 AM CST up reply actions
^this
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:22 PM CST up reply actions
2 qb's in the history of the nfl
Have won a Super Bowl 36 years or older
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
and one of them did it twice
now whats my prize goddammit
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 9:22 PM CST up reply actions
Gotta think you'd be talking about conditional picks in 2013 & 14.
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:16 PM CST up reply actions
We're discussing Manning
Not Brady
I’d take the greatest QB to ever play for 4 years.
It’s not crazy to want your own 10+ year star QB, not someone else’s who is closer to retirement than his peak.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 4:29 PM CST up reply actions
Manning > Brady
The Pats have a better all around team. Even with Cassel filling in they went 11-5.
The Colts won’t win 10 games for the first time since Manning was drafted.
You can’t seriously argue that Brady is the better QB.
I see your point
and it’s very valid. However I believe Brady is greater. Similar to Jordan vs LeBron, I’m going with the guy who has multiple championships.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
Ouch
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
Well..
he is obviously in the hall before Tony
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 9:01 AM CST up reply actions
Yes
Didn’t you know Eli is the next elite QB since he out did Brady in the final minutes, twice against the Pats!
Seriously though, I just think Brady is better, I know the argument goes round and round, but I’ll pick Brady every time. It’s really more like coke vs pepsi, or PC vs Mac, you have some people who just like one better than the other for whatever reason.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
He hurt his neck ...twice
Who says he even plays again.I would rather trade for Luck
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 8:08 PM CST up reply actions
Almost as unlikely as we could get 4 good years outta Manning
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 9:01 AM CST up reply actions
lol ya lets get another retread in here because we haven't learned our lesson yet
good point aasukiskui,rec’d
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
So if the chiefs and saints played against each other in a super bowl
who you taking?
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 6:25 PM CST up reply actions
Tough real tough
But,I would say Chiefs because Saints got there ring a couple years ago.Plus I am from here
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:31 PM CST up reply actions
guess thats how you do it
get an afc team and an nfc team. More odds to see a SB
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
nope I dont choose who I like
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
They chose you?
Its cool man I get it, everyone has 2 teams
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
I have been watching football since 95
Saints and Chiefs are my teams .I can’t help that
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
right..I said I get it
I’ve been watching football since I was 5 so I like most of the AFC and half of the NFC… I feel like my team makes the superbowl every year, its nuts. But hey, when you are lucky, you’re lucky you know what I mean.. Right now I am wearing a Jets hat with a dolphins shirt, raiders underwear, and purple vikings socks. I am going pantless today or else I would for sure be wearing my saints pajama pants with the little feet things. It’s tuff trying to keep up with ALL of these teams new apparel. Really killing my bank account, but gotta show some love
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 11:47 PM CST up reply actions
ok
Do you have another team?I mean at team you root for like the chiefs?A team that no matter what,you like?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
In the NFL?
No! there is no team I like the way I like the chiefs. My family is originally from boston so If its Patriots vs giants in superbowl, Id cheer for patriots, but that is the extent of it. Not sure how one can be diehard fan of several teams in same league,unless you have a dad who liked one team and a mom who liked another. But to each there own. Just giving you shit,guy..Nothing serious
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 11:57 PM CST up reply actions
I understand
But it helps to have another team.I honestley don’t know why Saints were my 2nd team.But,I can shed some perspective,under Haslette we were competitve only to gaff in the end.Haley reminds me Haslette it is alarming
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 12:01 AM CST up reply actions
Why trade for Manning?
The Chiefs are playing so lousy, they may have a chance to sign Barkley or RG3. Will either be as good as Manning? Likely not. What they do have going for them is a long career (Manning has maybe 1 or 2 years left in him) and lots of room to develop (though they look pretty good right now).
by Chiefs4Life on Nov 18, 2011 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
Debatable Example
They traded for Cutler, meaning he was not a free agent, and it was an unusual and expensive trade at that (a promising, young starting QB and a fifth-round pick for two firsts, a third and a backup QB).
The Peppers signing was one of the better ones in recent history, but you’d be hard pressed to show he was overwhelmingly responsible for their success. Remember that team rode an amazing special teams and defensive unit to the Super Bowl four seasons prior, and those units have continued to be a big part of their success. (Key player on each unit is still on that team and very good: Hester on ST and Urlacher on Defense.)
by Wait and See on Nov 18, 2011 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
we are lucky to have pioli, and thats not even the homer in me saying that
read “war room”…then tell me that he isnt the right man for the job. So freaking lucky…..Pioli chose to come to KC, he wants to win a championship here….t hat takes time, I dont even count 09’s draft, he came into absolutely zero depth, and a team who had one consistent star…dustin colquitt..
As Pioli said the roster isnt close to where they want it to be….So lets give them time
I know that pisses of chiefs fans….but as someone who doesnt exactly get to enjoy the moment to moment thanks to a friend called pain, Id say waiting would be a negative because of it, but honestly….I have nothing but faith in pioli, nothing but faith in haley…I think this team has one of the best front office/coaching staff’s in football, haley is a work in progress and has improved steadily as not just a clock manager, but as a molder of men
Team Pioli/Haley. Decade of the Chiefs.
Team Colquitt
by SDChief on Nov 18, 2011 12:45 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
^this
"At one point in your life you either have the thing you want or the reasons why you don't "
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 18, 2011 8:24 PM CST up reply actions
How has it been three days
And no one bit on that one?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I am the Master of Hyperenthetical Asiditry (you know, like this. Only more)
Shaun Smith was far from a mediocre
Player for us when he was here. But besides that, the rest is great.
by JC25FoMVP on Nov 18, 2011 1:04 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Very True
Pioli also wanted to keep him but he was offered a better deal by the Titans, not just in terms of money though he got a lot but his role likely would not have been the same here as it is there.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
Considering that he's the starting LDT,
Yeah, I’d say the role was different.
Shaun wanted to start, and he wouldn’t have gotten to here. It’s sad but true.
Great read
Only thing I can say is that we have better players but yet we still cant get a solid game from start to finish
Why I don't like Pioli
I have been 1 of the staunchest critics of our GM Scott Pioli as you will find on AP.I don’t think this guys drafting/free agent signings have been up to par with creating a team to win championshipS plural (which he said he wanted to do).I want to clarify something before I move on to my point.To dislike Pioli/Haley is NOT to want Herm/Peterson back.I think I can speak for every single Pioli critic on here when I say that.My feeling has been,that they are the same people.‘’Oh my god’‘….’‘no freaking way you can say that’’ ,you say out loud.Well,lets look at the evidence.
In his 1st 2 years in KC, Herm was 13-19 as a head coach with a 23-8 loss against the Colts in the 1st round in the playoffs on the road.
Haley,in his 1st 2 seasons is 14-18 with a home playoff loss against Baltimore 30-7
So,when looking at the numbers,the brilliant,genius,incredible Todd Haley,is 1 win,yes,1 win better than the guy many fans see as the biggest idiot ever in coaching.Now, I can already hear the rebuttal from fans now.‘’Yeah,yeah but Herm got Vermeils great team he left behind’’.You mean the great team of the worst defense in football?You mean the great team of an aging o-line?You mean the great team of an aging Eddie Kennison?You mean the great team of the revolving door of Brodie,Tyler Thigpen,Damon Huard at qb?You mean the great team of Priest Holmes and Trent Green at the end of there careers?
When Todd Haley came in he had Jamal Charles,Larry Johnson(on the decline to be sure),a young talented Dwayne Bowe(over a 1,000 yards receiving with a mess at qb),A HOF Tony G(they traded him there choice) and a promissing OT Brandon Albert.That is at least something Haley and Pioli could work with.So,this opinion that there was no talent on this team is patently false.
On defense he got 2 young good corners,a good ILB,Hali,Dorsey and an elite punter in Colquit.In total,Haley got 10 good players that he didn’t have to worry about finding in the draft.Again,saying he had 0 talent when he got here is shortsighted at best and a lie at worst.
Lets look at how competitive each team has been under there respected leadership.Herm was blown out 18 times(losses by 10 or more points ) during his tenure.Haley,so far has been blown out 13 times with 7 games to go in the season.
This data is incomplete ,for Haley still has games left to play before he completes his 3rd season.But,lets say he goes 6-10 and gets blown out 3 more times this season.Only the most die hard ,homer,unrealistic fan would argue against that.So, if he is 6-10 this year,that would mean he would have only 5 games better than Herm and only would have been blown out 3 less times
I guess the point i’m getting at ,is if Herm was fired after 3 seasons ,how can we not look at firing Haley who is only slightly better in terms of the wins and double didget losses with a better team?If Herm was a big of an idiot as people say,how is Haley not looked at in a similar light?And Haley has more talent on this team than Herm ever did,just by qb alone.I’m no Cassel fan but ,even I have to admit he is better than anything Herm had at that position(save Green who he only had for 8 games)
So,what about Pioli,what’s his story?I think so far he and Peterson have similar paths as well.Both drafted an underachieving DE’s in the 1st round of the draft.Both drafted fragile TE’s in the 3rd round.Both found quality DB’s in the 5th round.I could go on and on.But,Pioil comes with the credintials of being a genius,while Peterson is looked at as a boob.Pioli had 2 second round picks ,yet decided to reach on 2 role players
Pioli trade a 6th round pick in a deep draft in 2010 for 2 guards that started a combined 6 games
Pioli trade a 7th round pick (again in a deep 2010 draft) to get Jake O’Connel
Pioli failed to get an OC this year
Pioli failed to resign a good player Shawn Smith
Pioil passed on many free agents ,while signing players like Sabby and Amon Gordon
Pioli traded up to get a fragile TE
Pioli has built no depth on this team
Pioli brought in a 3-4 defense that we still don’t have the pieces for
Pioli had one of the worst drafts in team history in 09
Pioli had no backup plan to Matt Cassel and is relying on a guy cut by UFL,CFL teams
Pioli has failed to but up a cosistently competitive team.
Piol cut Brian Waters who is having a Pro Bowl year with the Pats
But it’s funny ,when it was Herm /Peterson doing the losing,we kicked them out of town.Yet,with Haley/Pioli all we do is make excuses.This team has regressed since last season Here come the new boss same as the old boss.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 2:21 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Its hard to judge why he didnt sign or why he passed on certain players
some players might of wanted money that wasnt worth their value. Maybe some positions he felt another younger guy was ready to step up. People think that just because a guy is a free agent, we can automatically sign him. The player does have a choice of which team he would like to sign with and they dont always go to the team willing to pay the most. None of us know the conversations or the attempts Pioli has made to get guys.
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
Here's the MAJOR flaw in your argument, which pretty much nullifies everything you've said
The Chiefs combined record for the 3 years prior to Herm Edwards taking over: 30 – 18 (62.5 %)
The Chiefs combined record for the 3 years prior to Pioli/Haley taking over: 15 – 33 (31.25 %)
The situations that each coach walked into couldn’t be more different. Herm walked into a team with talent (although it was talent at the end of their careers). Pioli/Haley took over a team with a 31% winning percentage containing alot of players who shouldn’t have been playing in the NFL anyway (as evidenced by how many of those former players aren’t even playing football anymore). Let’s not pretend that the situations are identical.
I would rather have talent in there prime that I can coach
Than talent on the way out the door.BIG difference
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:12 PM CST up reply actions
Lol
Herm took over a 10 win team; Haley took over a 2, count them, TWO, win team. Herm tore it down (worse every year) while Haley is building this team back up (our record be damned, this team is better then last years and if herm was still coaching his fat ass players would be winless with this schedule).
…6th and 7th round picks are fodder, if you get ONE start out of them you did well.
…Pioli has an OC, he just isn’t as good as CW. (I do however agree this needs to be addressed SOON).
…Pioli has been successful in resigning all the great players, and did address the DL in draft and FA this off season (including Gregg…Gregg > Smith).
…Pioli singed Gregg, Breston, Siler, McClain, Gaither in FA (all nice pick ups).
…Pioli had to build up a starting team (instead of the players we DID have who are ‘pumping gas’ now) first.
…Pioli brought in a 3-4 defense that even without the pieces is playing as good as the ‘awesome’ defense we had BEFORE the got here.
…Pioli’s 2010 draft is one of the best in team history, and the 2011 draft ‘could’ be one of the best in NFL History (especially if picks like Stanzi (could be Brady 2.0) taken in the 5th, and Powe (a player many on AP wanted to take in the 3rd) taken in the 6th can make good.
…You have no idea what the backup plan is at QB, while I am not holding my breath Palko could pass for 300+, 3TD and 0 Int this week….ALL of the QBs (even Stanzi) is better then the BEST of the QB crap we had when Pioli got here.
…Pioli took a 2-14 team to 10-6 and the playoff by year 2, and so far in year 3 is one game out of first (that is competitive).
…Pioli cut BW for Asomaha who is long term (no different the GB letting Brett Farve (Hall of Fame QB) go for Aaron Rodgers).
Peterson had 20 YEARS…. TWENTY, to do something. Pioli has had 2.5, if you can’t see the difference you are blind.
Herm was in rebuilding mode so of course it got worse every year
Haley had the team when it was on its upside. Not that I think Herm is a better coach then Haley, but I dont hate Herm as a lot of people do.
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 6:22 PM CST up reply actions
The Problem With Herm
…was NOT likeability. He seems like a great guy and the players loved him but arguably for the wrong reason. Our players were fat, sloppy and undisciplined under him. You want the players to like the coach because they view him as able to succeed, not because he’s their buddy.
by Wait and See on Nov 18, 2011 6:26 PM CST up reply actions
Which is the reason I didnt like him as our coach
I did like that he seemed to scout def. players decent. I hear people on here who probably wouldnt even want Herm as our DC and I would take him on that side of the ball in a min. Thats more of what I was talking about
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 9:28 PM CST up reply actions
I would take Herm as a secondary scout(not like we really need it though)
Not a DC as I feel the Cover 2 base has ran its course in the NFL
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 9:03 AM CST up reply actions
they said that back in the day with the 3-4
so most every team went to the 4-3. and now the 3-4 seems to be back……But to run the cover 2 you need to be 4-3 and that would seem like we are flip flopping to much, plus dont think we have the speed. So I will agree, Herm would be better suited as a scout for us rather then DC
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
3-4 and 4-3 switches are mainly about the players you can get in the draft
With a lot of colleges running the spred you get smaller Dlinemen, which make good OLBs and DEs in the 3-4 but hard to get a true 2 gap NT which is why you see a lot of a 1 gap systems now with 3×300lb guys on the line.
The cover 2 is just easy to exploit if you do not get quick pressure and constant pressure. There are big holes in the middle of the field between the safeties(Which the Tampa 2 tried to fix by dropping the MLB into a deep zone) and along the sidelines between the corners zone and safetys zone. It also tends to give up more rushing yards due to the LBs/CBs/Ss all dropping back right at the snap to get into their zone, gives the RB a few extra feet of space before contact of the second and third level if the line does not contain correctly.
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 7:46 PM CST up reply actions
about the players you can get in the draft?
more about the players you HAVE on the current roster and then you draft guys who you feel will fit on that scheme ..I dont think we have the speed on defense to run that scheme anyways..
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
I'm talking about your statement of switching between the 3-4 and 4-3
How the 3-4 died out and is now back. DE’s were becoming too small in college to maintain so much speed to attack the spred that they couldn’t play in the 4-3 and hold the edge, yet they had no skills to play LB and cover, hence they are slotted as OLB’s in a 3-4 and able to attack
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 20, 2011 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
Oh ok I got ya
yea that does have something to do with it.
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
Agree. And the player personnel theory part of it is
you’re looking for a GOOD d-lineman, who can learn the 2-gap principles and play BIG, and you’re not worrying about whether or not he can run down NFL QB’s in space. The 3-4 lets you just go BIG up front. And your converted DEs who are playing OLB get more help inside than they would have gotten as 4-3 DEs, with only a pair of DTs in the middle.
Hali’s struggles as LDE in the 4-3 pretty much highlight the issue with the 4-3 in today’s game. It’s really hard to find a real pass-rusher who’s also big enough to stand up to the strong-side running game. A few teams around the league get their Julius Peppers, and everyone else who’s stuck in the 4-3 scheme keeps LOOKING for their Julius Peppers (or Warren Sapp in the middle).
would of ≠ would've
Haley had the team whet it was abousolute dog sh!t (worst team in my lifetime).
I don’t hate Herm at all, please don’t think that I do. However, he had his shoot (as much of one as he could have had with Peterson handcuffing him anyway) and failed big time.
Haley is going to win a Super Bowl as a head coach, I have no doubt about this. The only question in my mind is “will it be the Chiefs that he takes to a Super Bowl victory or some other team”.
See thats the thing
he came here and had to rebuild to get some youth in here. It’s hard to think any coach wouldn’t of failed “big time”. Like I have said though, I dont think he is a great coach but I also dont think he is as bad as people make him out to be. He was in a position where they wanted to rebuild and that means you have to stack up draft picks to actually draft guys not use them to trade for players. So since it takes time for rookies to develop, kinda a catch 22 for him. Dick V. should be getting plenty of heat himself. WE had plenty of talent on offense to go all the way with that team but our defense sucked and was never addressed. That right there is crushing to me because we were so close
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
I dunno. If they'd taken Troy Polamalu, rather than aNOTHER freakin' 1st round RB,
maybe that D would’ve been good enough.
I think DV did what he needed to do to make that team competitive. I think he was overruled on the talent, numerous times. And I think it likely that he didn’t like King Carl as much, once he got enough glimpses behind the curtain, to see how respect was or was not shown to the players that DV loved and respected.
I don’t blame Herm Edwards for the “deconstruction wave” that washed over the Chiefs after DV’s final retirement. I do blame him for lack of a solid conditioning program. I think he’d’ve (not “he’d of”) had the Chiefs in that 10-6 to 6-10 window on a regular basis, almost certainly by 2009, when that 2nd-rounder that went for Cassel and Vrabel would’ve gone somewhere else (preferably O-Line).
would of ≠ would've
ok 1
Herm had an aging team with no stability at qb
2 6th and 7th round picks in a very deep draft he gave up for a dog turd sandwitch
3.Gregg is NOT better than Smith,Smith play 2 positions and is 4 years younger
4.10 of the guys starting were Herm/Pterson picks almost half the roster
5.the 2010 draft got 3 good players,2 role players, an injury prone TE,it wasn’t all that
6.Palco got cut by a UFL,CFL team you put your house up he succeeds, I wont
5.only Mclain and Breaston are long term guys and McClain is a FB 1 of the easiest positions to find
6.We dont have the guys to run a 3-4 yet we slam our heads against a wall trying
7.4-12 t0 10-6 to 6-10 sounds schizofrenic to me
anything else?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
Lets get a new GM and Head Coach every 3 years until we get one who can win a Super Bowl.
With thinking like that it will only take another 200 years before we can be successful.
these guys are hired to be fired
So are you going to give a guy 5 years?He is to up and down,feast or famine.4-12 with Haley as OC,10-6 with Weis as OC,4-5 with Mouir(although we know Haley is calling the plays) maybe we gave the wrong guy credit for last year
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
Or maybe, just maybe with the week schedule our team overachieved last season.
Then maybe, just maybe with the difficult schedule our team is playing like they really are, a team in the upside of a rebuild. Even the ‘give-me’ games like vs Buf and vs Det ended up NOT being ‘give-me’ (both teams playing good ball), and even with all the injuries we are STILL playing competitive football (only one game back for the lead).
If you want to play like chicken little (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) be my guest, but it is CLEAR to me this team’s arrow is pointing up and as long as we stay the course with Pioli we will be playing for a Super Bowl soon rather then letting him go for ???? Who did you want to replace him with again?
ok
Herm in 06 beat 3 teams with winning records and 2 teams that were .500Haley in 2010,beat 1 team with a winning record and 1 team that was 8-8.I But Herm got fired after 3 years ,yet Haley is bullitproof .I ask why?Both have similar records,yet 1 is seen as a pariah ,the other a savior.If you can fire Herm after 3 years,you certainly can fire Haley after 3.I think both suck .I am glad Herm/Peterson was fired.But I hold Haley to the same standard.And how is the ‘’sky pointing up’’?We are 4-5 ,the glass shoe has come off this foot
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 3:05 AM CST up reply actions
Most people are taking injuries into account for this year though
That is why most people see Haley as safe, at this point I see him as safe as well. Depending how the rest of the season plays out.. maybe my mind will sway the other direction though.
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 9:06 AM CST up reply actions
Herm inherited the worst defense in football and an aging offense
Nobody cut him any slack
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
Herm inherited a playoff caliber team
and he ran it straight into a clusterfuck of a team. Pioli and Haley inherited that clusterfuck of a team and ran it straight into a division title
Might want to check the current roster
A lot of those guys came from the Herm era
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
Why does the era matter? I'm sure it has been stated before but I dont feel like searching
Fact is IMO that the players are playing better now than they have before, which falls directly onto the current coaches/staff.
The position switch really helped Tamba, JC got his chance to shine, Bowe dropped weight and has improved his catch rate, etc.
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 7:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Just a thought
Baldwin isnt a superstar this year,neither is Stanzi,nor is Houston or anyone else we just drafted. But now lets say next year we have a new coach. And in the next 2 years those players become superstars, is that the new coach or the regime here at the time that drafted them?
Herm basically was working with rookies and nobodies in an effort to rebuild. Though he wouldnt be a coach anyone cares to have back, he still did things back then that arent all bad. Thats where I think people misunderstand. They blame Herm for his record but anyones record would have been that if you totally stripped the team to start a youth movement.
I think if Herm and Haley both had the exact same team, Haleys record would be better. Not by a huge amount but better overall.
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 11:43 PM CST up reply actions
However it was Herm's call to strip the team down like he did
Many other teams have went through rebuilds without every player on their roster being under the age of 25. Herm thought he had the time available to see his project through, he didnt. Gotta give him credit he did have an eye for secondary talent(Flowers/Carr/Page/Pollard), however like now we didn’t have a QB.
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 20, 2011 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
It was a good call
and other teams have gone through rebulds and have sucked for a while after. 49ers is a team I can think of who took a long time to finally be where they are. They have a QB who I think is like a Cassel to us. They are using him correctly and he is getting it dont. No he isnt putting up drew brees type number but he isnt turning the ball over either. Kinda like Cassel last year. This years play calling sucks and is not using our offense to its full potential. which has to fall on Haley. But I dont think he deserves to be fired just yet
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
more excuses
so you are kind of agreeing with me last year was a mirage and the team wasn’t that good to begin with
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
that was just 1 of my complaints against the guy
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 2:34 PM CST reply actions
I've never heard anyone who argues for a free agency spending spree give an example of it working.
George Allen begs to differ.
by lawrencephillipslifecoach on Nov 18, 2011 2:34 PM CST reply actions
How about picking 3 to 4 guys and going after them
Only Breaston was signed to a long term deal
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
Unfortunately, for you, most of the people AREN’T arguing for a free agency spending spree. They’re arguing for moving from the bottom to the middle.
"Hater" is a term used by weak-minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
Perhaps Spending Spree was Inflammatory Language
…but I believe the points I made are still valid.
By the way, when you say “bottom” do you have numbers to back that up? Specifically, where do we rank among all 32 teams in money spent in FA and the number of players signed? I know our cap number is among the lowest, but that’s not the same thing.
by Wait and See on Nov 18, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
The only thing I found was back in august
we were at the very bottom with 33 mil of cap space
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
yep, just read that
scratch what I said : )
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 6:23 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sorry
The only thing you can truly blame Pioli for at this point is taking longer to build this team than you’d like. But he has a plan that he has talked about from day one. Build a team that can sustain success.
If you want a team that can sign big name free agents and turn a team around in one to two years, without sustaining success, this isn’t your team. If you are too impatient for all of the draft classes to pan out while catching up with the ‘08 draft class, you shouldn’t waste your time with the Chiefs. If you can’t understand that there are misses from any GM but at the same time acknowledge the progress that is being made, I just don’t know what to tell you. It is going to take time to build the next Steelers, Patriots, or Ravens caliber franchise.
The en vogue topic of late seems to be, Peterson left Pioli with nothing vs. Peterson left Pioli with the only stars of this team. Well both sides are arguing the wrong point. The stripped down truth is this: Pioli inherited about nine talented up and comers but did not inherit a team. It is up to him to take that talent and infuse them with his own drafted players, sprinkle in some free agents on the way, and make a team that is on the same page.
I won’t argue that it is taking longer than all of us want or expected. But it is what they are going to do, it is what we have, and it is up to us to keep watching or turn the TV off.
by old_school on Nov 18, 2011 3:19 PM CST via mobile reply actions 4 recs
Like I said ,it is just 1 complaint I have against him
As I pointed out above(feel free to rec) is that threw 3 years Haley/Pioli have a very simalar records as Herm/Peterson 06-08.Yet,I find it funny that Herm/Peterson are idiots yet Pioli/Haley seem to know what they are doing.I think Peterson left Haley more than what Vermeil left Herm.I don’t want Herm,Peterson or Vermeil anywhere near this team.I am just asking why are we so impatient with Herm but patient with Haley.Again very simalar record threw the 1st 3 years
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
One thing you're point is missing
with Herm/Peterson vs Haley/Pioli is Peterson had 20 years to come up with those what 9 or 10 guys? Herm also had been a head coach prior to coming to KC. I could argue technically that this is Pioli’s GM job, which by title yes but as for experience that’s false, however he is installing his system, a system that took many many many years to develop and work.
The 06-08 vs 09-present just doesn’t seem like a good comparison when I think about those factors, just my opinion.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 18, 2011 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
How so?
If I compared Socrates to lennie Small,well I would expect more from Socrates on an inetellectual leval.Just as I would expect more from a 4 time exec of the year and an offensive guru ,to 2 dudes that people see as incompetent .Yet ,if you look at both of them(that I showed above) it is virtually the same records,sands Pioli /Haley are slightly better in the win category.But,by all accounts they should be MUCH farther ahead than the 2 ’’idiots’’ that came before them.Adding insult to injury, Herm/Peterson spotted Haley 11 players(if you count waters and Tony that they got rid of,there choice)this team should be in contention for a championship.But in fact,this team despite another draft/free agency has actually regressed substantialy since last season.I say regressed,but then again last years 10-6 record is looking more and more like a mirage
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
But you've said repeated times that you think Pioli isn't the answer in KC
So if this is your only complaint against him, how does this warrant getting rid of him?
I listed 13 grievences against him
yet people focus only on the FA part because it is the easiest to excuse
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 5:55 PM CST up reply actions
One of the best FanPosts I have read in a while
I concur with pretty much everything. Good work!
Just because you disagree with someone/something, or they disagree with you, doesn't mean that person/act is ignorant. Please don't be ignorant of how to properly use the word ignorant!
by ChiefsFan4Life634 on Nov 18, 2011 3:52 PM CST reply actions
I'm sorry
but i think you must have had a snoot ful of the arrowhead kool aid before you wrote this little missal. I think Saints 79 pretty well blew you off the web with facts that a lot of us have seen for some time. Having lived through the Steadman and the Peterson era’s of promises given and promises never kept I guess I don’t have the time or the patience to go through another 10 years of mediocrity while the sound of Missouri money traveling south to the Hunt family is deafening. A question most of the koolaid drinkers never ask themselves is how the income from the NFL is divvied up. It is pretty much divided up in percentages to the players and the owners with the owners getting so much off the top before divideing it. Now that money off the top is supposed to go to promotion of the team, and then the players percentage is the cap money. What do you think happens to the cap money if it isn’t spent? Right into Clark’s pocket as a bonus for parsimoniousness. It is my understanding that Clark has to give each of his siblings 10 mill bucks apiece for their part ownership of the club. That is whether they make that money or not. so I understand his motives for being close with the bucks. But the owners who have teams in the big markets are getting soaked for money that the small market teams are putting in their pockets instead of building their teams into more attractive markets. That was one of the big differences that the owners had to iron out for themselves. In a year or two Clark won’t be able to stick that excess cap money in his pockets and we might start to see the chiefs get noticeably better. Anyway we can only hope. In the meantime bitching and staying away from arrowhead is the only recourse we have as fans to let them know of our displeasure.
by Jim from KC on Nov 18, 2011 4:40 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
You're taking Saints' side
therefore what he says is fact and he won the debate? Not hardly. All Saints_chiefsfan did was point out the bad the Scott has done without pointing to the good.
and what is the good?
Eric Berry falling on his lap
Asamoah
Lewis (hell of a pick,then again Peterson found Jared allen in the 4th,Carr and Hall in the 5th)
Steve Breaston was a good sign
I’m running out of good things
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Your opinion
I can point out only 4 things that Pioli has done wrong….if I wanted to skew it to look good in my favor.
Eric Berry falling on his lap
Browns wanted to trade up for Berry, Pioli could have bailed out of the #5 draft spot and let someone else take our best defensive player, but he didn’t.
I’m not saying Pioli has done a perfect job, but I think getting rid of him after 3 years and starting over again is a huge mistake.
by Spiderwomn69 on Nov 21, 2011 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
You are right
I expect more from Pioli given his track record.Lets say, 2 students took the same test 1 being ..’’challenged’’ and 1 being the honor student and the challenged kid got an F but the honor student got a D+.It would reflect more negatively on the ’’gifted’’student,since more is expected,even though technicly he scored higher.That is a harsh comparrison I know,but that is how people seem to see the 2 parties on this site.Herm/peterson being challenged and Pioli/Haley being gifted
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 5:16 PM CST reply actions
Pioli knows what he's doing
Even if I remain skeptical of some coaching decisions, Pioli is at least putting some strong pieces in place to help us improve the team for the long haul.
*When we blitz, have the LB's do a KC Strip. Do this in remembrance of DT.
*Dear David Glass, as a lifelong Royals fan, I beg you to please sell the team. You have always been the problem; you will never be the solution.
Key words: Long haul
It’s hard to be patient, but it will happen and he will be vindicated, I strongly believe.
Are you going to give him 20 years like Peterson got?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:00 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe he is a 1 hit wonder
He found a QB in the 6th round ok.Just because I win the lottery, am I now a finacial advisor?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:27 PM CST reply actions
Maybe
you should start coaching in the NFL. Maybe, you can work your way up to GM one day for a team. I mean, it must be easy right?
When was the last time you got paid to play the lottery?
Pioli is getting paid to draft our players, and so far he is worth every penny he has been paid.
Pioli has done a good job
But they screwed Albert up in my opinion. Albert was a beast that first year and hes been trying to adjust every since. He was made to lose to much weight and as a result hes lost alot of functional strength in my opinion. O lineman aren’t pretty boys and need some weight on them. Letting Waters go was a damn mistake. We are going to find out just how much Monday night when he kicks our ass. I dont give a damn what you say, trading for Matt Cassell was a horrible move. I would have much rather went with a vet and had the pick. We are going to find out just how much Cassell was a mistake when our backups come out and throw the ball better than Matt ever thought about. Cassell cannot hit anyone in stride, its constantly behind the WR or above him. When we drafted Baldwin, I thought we got a guy even Matt couldn’t overthrow. Well i was wrong! I hope Pioli will admitt his mistake and go get RG3 in this draft!
What if Andy Reid is fired this year?
Uh oh do we get him?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:47 PM CST reply actions
I don't think so
I think Pioli and Reid would clash too much, Reid likes to have full control(going off memory here, not facts so take it with a grain of salt)
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
And Reid likes skill players far too much.
Dream Team’s main struggles are failures in the trenches. That’s Andy Reid’s career, right there.
would of ≠ would've
Matt Cassell
His success last year was due to a weak schedule, hes just terrible.
amen
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
Can we stop spreading this bullshit?
Cassell is not a terrible quarterback. And he’s also not a great QB. He’s an average to good QB, who is a capable game manager provided he’s given adequate protection, and his receivers don’t drop his passes.
He’s probably not going to take us to the Superbowl, but he isn’t the sole reason this team is 4-12 this year.
no but
He can’t take this team where it needs to go.And QB is the most important position in sports
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 7:56 PM CST up reply actions
So who is your QB then?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
Tell him Luck and he'll leave you alone.
… or try to hump your leg.
by Tomahawk29 on Nov 18, 2011 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Luck...I mean Stanzi to appeas you
YA ,Stanzi because omnipotent Pioli selected him
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
Huh?
I’m not sold on Stanzi. He might be good, but I’m not holding my breath, and we need a back up plan if he sucks too.
yes sounds good
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:12 PM CST up reply actions
Rec'd.
Many of the same sorts of things I’ve been saying since draft and FA. As somebody who knew the team pretty well before and after Pioli, I see a team that’s being worked from top to bottom, and is generally getting better.
The Philly refutation to building in FA is apples and oranges. They were a team that believed all they needed were skill positions to finish their team, when they’ve been (imo) 2nd-tier in the trenches, especially on offense, pretty much since Andy Reid got there. Lots of flash and lots of “guru” talk, but the longer he’s in Philly, the more I feel like he’s just a fat man, who throws skill players at his problems, but only employs half-measures up front.
This being said, skill player, trench player, or in between, I don’t care. KC was in a unique situation to offer quite a few players TOP dollar. They could EASILY have offered BIG money, front-loaded everything, and done NOTHING to hurt their long-term prospects. Pioli could’ve offered riDICulous money for 1 or 2 years that would be the equal of ANYthing anybody else could’ve guaranteed in a longer-term deal. He could’ve made at least ONE big FA move, and likely TWO or even THREE.
And he didn’t. Love his “system approach,” to FA, but general principles are one thing, and exigent circumstances are another, and spending up to the cap would have given him a BETTER chance to compete in 2011, and done nothing to hurt his chances down the road.
Sure you can point to being snake-bitten by Berry and Charles and Moeaki, but that kind of shit happens to every team every year, and part of never leaving a stone unturned is never leaving a dollar unspent. Something simple he could’ve done to add that much MORE talent to the squad. I wanted ‘em to go after Scrabble, myself. Chasing Aubrayo Franklin would’ve been fun, too. Maybe I’d look dumb for chasing Franklin, but hell, I’d still sign Gregg, and not be afraid to part ways with either one of ’em, or keep both of ’em, for that matter. Just base my whole defense on an elephant in the middle.
would of ≠ would've
by hmills110 on Nov 18, 2011 8:45 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
what about Philly?
Hm ,I love your perspective.You come to us like Gandolph comes to middle earth before there can be a war between men and man.But,I want to look at stats 2000-2010
Only Bellichick and Reid remain from coaches who coached between 2000 -2010
Bellechick with a hall of famer Tom Brady 9 years in the playoffs
Andy Reid has had 3 different QB’s start at Qb in the decade
Only Jeff Fisher had as many different qb’s start a playoff game.I would love a fired bitter Reid as our next head Coach
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:00 PM CST up reply actions
Ya ,like fringe guys and overachievers to
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:17 PM CST up reply actions
You come to us like Gandolph comes to middle earth? WTF haa
funny shit
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
i like his style ,dont always agree, but I like it
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
Disagree on Philly and Another Theory on FA
First, your perception of Andy Reid as ignoring the trenches is not backed up by the facts. I’ve listed all of Reid’s lineman picks with the Eagles below. FA information is included for the last few years (I couldn’t find complete data for the other years). The number in parentheses on the draft lines is the round the player was taken in:
FREE AGENCY:
2011 – 1 DT, 1 G, 1 DE, 1 T
2010 – 1 DE and 1 C
2009 – 2 OTs (For one, they traded 1st, 4th and a conditional pick to the Bills)
2008 – 1 DE and 1 DT
DRAFTS:
2011 – G (1), G (5), G (6)
2010 – DE (1), DE (3), DE (5), DE (7)
2009 – OT (5), OG (7)
2008 (No 1) – DT (2), DE (3), OT (4), OT (6), DE (6; Studebaker pick), OT (7)
2007 (No 1) – DE (2)
2006 – DT (1), OT (2), G (4), DT (6)
2005 – DT (1), OT (4), DE (5), OT (5), OT (6), DT (7)
2004 – OT (1), G (4), G (7), C (7)
2003 – DE (1), DE (4), OT (6)
2002 – C (4), DE (7)
2001 – DE (3)
2000 – DT (1), G (2), DE (6), C (6)
1999 – G (3), G (4), DT (7)
In 12 drafts, Andy Reid has taken 43 linemen, with 15 in the top 3 rounds and 9 with his highest pick (including 6 straight years from 2003 to 2008). Whether they’ve been successful or not is debatable (you’d have to do a lot more research than I want to), but any line failures are not the result of a lack of effort.
Second, your argument on Philly’s approach is not borne out by the facts. Their FA flurry included DE, DT, LB, CB, S, T, G, TE, QB and RB. That’s not a team plugging a few skill position holes; that’s a team trying to stack nearly every position. In fact, 3 of the 4 starters (only 1 more than the Chiefs got) from their FA spree are in the trenches: DT Jenkins, DE Babin and G Mathis.
To be honest, I still think the Eagles got some good pieces and could put it together with a full off-season of work. My larger point was that FA is not some instant cure-all which can be used to create a great team. Reid has had a lot of success through the draft (including his first pick ever: Donovan McNabb) and built a solid foundation onto which he can tack pieces. Perhaps Pioli wants to do the same.
Regarding chasing more FA’s, here’s another couple theories on why we didn’t:
1) Signing what would essentially be mercenary players to large short term contracts could disrupt the team values they’re trying to instill.
2) Signing more veterans would require cutting or demoting young players they might believe in and genuinely want to develop and see play.
On a related note, I’ve always thought Reid was the closest thing the NFC has had to Belichick: total control and tremendous success. The only reason he’s not mentioned in the same breath is because his dominance almost always stops at the NFC Championship game (5 trips in 12 years, 6 division titles, and 9 playoff appearances).
by Wait and See on Nov 18, 2011 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
I like the Jets approach
look at there picks,they move up to get who they want,and they still hit on key guys they draft
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
yea they are def. a team we should follow
what are they,like 5-4? yea approach seems to be working well for them
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
Back to back AfC championship games
Yeah….that sounds pretty good
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:37 PM CST up reply actions
how about we get back on that
I think they can still make the playoffs
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:43 PM CST up reply actions
they better start getting better now
seems unlikely, but possible
by TheScreenName on Nov 18, 2011 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
I can see 6-10 winning this division
Tim Tebow and his little giants offense
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:56 PM CST up reply actions
Are you high?
Who we talking about here, Jets or Broncos? How about them soldiers killing obama? Bulls were awesome when Jordan played for them. Wonder what the new IPOD will be like.
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 12:01 AM CST up reply actions
wish I was
jets will be fine.AFC West is the worst division in the NFL .That is what I meant
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 12:05 AM CST up reply actions
Argue to argue
See what I did there? Yeah, I’m right. Why? Because I make a million redundant posts saying so!
Jets won't make the playoffs this year
NE has a cakewalk schedule so Jets will have to get a wildcard. The way the AFC North is playing I doubt that will happen.
Do you want to bet that?
They make the playoffs
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 5:03 AM CST up reply actions
I'll put
saints_chiefsfan1979 knows more about football than me….I was wrong
(or something like that)
If the Jets make the playoffs and I’ll keep it in my sig until after the SB. If you say something similar in your sig if the Jets don’t make the playoffs. What do you say?
why dont you guys set up your 'ol paypal accounts
and bet actual cold hard cash.. Thats how we do it in Vegas ,baby
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
That's kinda sad.. in Vegas yet use paypal?
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 19, 2011 7:49 PM CST up reply actions
No
bet actual cash with casinos. But if I were to bet you and lets say you live in some hillbilly back woods town (which seems like you do) I would do paypal.. Get my drift buddy.
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
and that wasnt an argument
it was provoked thinking
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
'set up your 'ol paypal accounts' 'Thats how we do it in Vegas ,baby'
See how that works? You say to use paypal cause thats how you do it in Vegas.
Not really a ‘hillbilly backwoods town’ although hell I love the country so yes my house is out in the sticks
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 20, 2011 9:41 AM CST up reply actions
So you are just going to leave the"and bet cold hard cash"
out of the sentence? You know what I meant so lets be mature here. Yes I send paypal to casinos when I make my weekly picks. They love it. Why not use phone accounts like everyone else is using, I will do it with paypal,thats the ticket.
Did you say your house is made out of sticks?
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
''Cold hard cash'' can be used to describe any form of currency in todays society
There are millions of different ’slang’s to use for money and not one is set in stone for what it can mean
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Nov 20, 2011 7:32 PM CST up reply actions
Nice, fact-filled refutation.
Nevertheless, I remember watching them contend in the playoffs, and their OL play being what ultimately held ’em back. Not very scientific. Just my sense of the ebb and flow in the trenches.
But don’t include Jason Babin as a “trench player.” That crazy 9-tech doesn’t count. What you have, there, is a big LB lined up wide in a 4-point stance. He’s not contending in the trenches. He’s just trying to disrupt.
But I can’t say, with a straight face, that picks weren’t invested in OL, you fact-filled SOB. Still, with all those picks, the best OT they could find was Jason Peters, whom they stole from Buffalo, and who’s been up-and-down.
At the least, it appears they’ve been snake-bit on OL.
I’d have to be more detailed in my analysis than to say just how aggressive “15 picks in the top 3 rounds in 12 years” really is. My sense, from watching them play, is that they’re all about the skill players and have relied on mutant QB, RB and WR to overcome their inability to block it up, pretty much since Reid came to town.
would of ≠ would've
How many playoff wins do they have and how many do we have?
Rest my case.This is big boy football,not pee wee where effort mattres.WINS MATTER
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 18, 2011 11:19 PM CST reply actions
Wins do matter especially in playoffs
but regular season is a good place to start in order to get to the playoffs. I’ll take the last 2 seasons then the 2 season before hand. Seems like the Chiefs aren’t doing that bad in their divison.
Chiefs: 14 wins from 6 wins
Raiders: 13 wins from 9 wins
Chargers: 22 wins from 19 wins
Broncos: 13 wins from 15 wins
I’ll do another 2 divisions just ’cuz
Jets: 20 wins from 13 wins
Patriots: 24 wins from 27 wins
Bills: 10 wins from 14 wins
Dolphins: 14 wins from 12 wins
Rams: 8 wins from 5 wins
Cardinals: 15 wins from 17 wins
49ers: 14 wins from 12 wins
Seahawks: 12 wins from 14 wins
All in all the last two season the Chiefs aren’t the worst in the league win wise yet have one of the most significant jumps from the 2 seasons prior. The Chiefs are rebuilding yet no one is patient or doesn’t want to accept that fact.
Amazing what is discussed when teams are losing.
I personally like what Haley and Pioli are doing. People are so impatient. The NFL as a whole is impatient. GM’s and coaches don’t even get a chance to put their ideas into place before they are run out of town and replaced.
Now Carl had definitely been here long enough to do what ever he wanted, so we could assume that what we accomplished while he was here was the best that he could do. But Pioli has had to clear out our garbage can lineup and start to replace almost every piece on a 53 man roster. We keep bringing up Charles, Dj, and Bowe because they were 3 of about 6 players who deserved to actually be on a NFL team. That only leaves oh 47 or so people to be replaced.
Not to mention the GM still has to watch the money. This is real life, not Madden. They are not playing with monopoly money. We have to watch how much we are paying. They are resigning all of our good players so far, so I am fine with that. Also some people just want us to sign people regardless of the other factors. People have been bringing up the NT position for several seasons now, and rightfully so. But as far as free agency goes, who was there that we should have signed? There have not been many really good people on the market that would fill a need here at any position. The ones who do are here for the most part. Let’s give it some time and see how it plays out.
"If ifs mattered, everyone would be undefeated." Enite
what has Pioli/haley has done in 3 years?
Is roughly what Herm Peterson did in the same 3 years(06-08)Yet,we make excuses for Pioli/Haley?I think they both suck ,so I am consistent
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 12:25 AM CST up reply actions
Peterson / Herm left Pioli / Haley with the WORST team the Chiefs History. 40+ players from that team are sitting on in easychairs Sundays watching football today.
What did Pioli / Haley do with that cr@p fest???? Oh…..they only pulled off the greatest turnaround in Chifes History (that is an undisputeable fact….if they didn’t not pull off the greatest turnaround in Chiefs History please team me what GM/Coach did).
To recap.
…Pioli / Haley took over the wost team in Chiefs history.
…Pioli / Haley pulled off the greatst turnaround in Chiefs History (and one of the best in NFL history as well).
…Pioli / Haley are one game out of first this year with a brutal scheudle, while our best player on both Offense (Charles) and Defense (Berry) on IR all season.
Yep….we shouldn’t even wait until the end of this season, and should sh!t can Pioli / Haley now. ROTFLMFAO.
look at the numbers they all suck
I am just saying,Herm sucked and Petersons arrogent ass ,should have been canned a long time ago.So,I look at Haley /Pioli the same way
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 3:12 AM CST up reply actions
So you view Peterson / Herm who after 3 years left the Chiefs with the worst team in History...
…‘the same way’ as you view Pioli / Haley who after 2.5 seasons pulled off the greatest turnaround in Chiefs History and are one game back this season (still competitive).
Bwahhhhhh, saints_chiefsfan1979, nothing but love for you my friend. You are one funny mo-fo, thank you for bringing tears to my eyes with how hard I am laughing reading your comments.
The worst team in history huh
Ya ,i try to be funny by pointing out facts.Like Herm and Haley have almost the same record after 3 years……hey ..look at me …kids.Ya, that moron Peterson sure didn’t produce any winners.huh?hey,what do I have in my hand?well its Derrick Thomas.You are so right,Marty /Carl never produced a winner in KC.‘’Hey y’all lets go to the playoffs 7 out of 10 years.After all who wants that right?we are only ’’1 game back in the MIGHTY AFC WEST.Hot diggity dog .Is that the best the PIOLIgists have to offer?Lets ignore the facts because Pioli is a genius no matter what.Chiefs will be 7-9 at best this year.Do you want to bet?If they go above that,I will buy you (your family?) a dinner anywhere you want,or any bar you want drinks are on me.If I win drinks are on you and I can drink a lot my friend..deal?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 4:58 AM CST up reply actions
The worst team in Chiefs history, yes.
Haley hasn’t been here 3 years.
Peterson fielded 0 winning Super Bowl teams, 0 teams with a Super Bowl apperance in TWENTY YEARS. Haley has more Super Bowl coaching experiance then any coach during Peterson’s time in KC and he is a very, VERY young head coach and is clearly improving. Peterson sure DIDN’T produce any winners!
You bet is a sucker bet for the following reason.
…even if they lose every game this season they are already bettter then the team Herm left Haley with even without his best players (Charles & Berry)
…the remaining schedule is BRUTAL, and we are playing with a back up QB.
…it is completely short sighted bet.
I will leave you with this Brando for “Guys and Dolls”…
“On the day when I left home to make my way in the world, my daddy took me to one side. "Son," my daddy says to me, "I am sorry I am not able to bankroll you to a very large start, but not having the necessary lettuce to get you rolling, instead I’m going to stake you to some very valuable advice. One of these days in your travels, a guy is going to show you a brand new deck of cards on which the seal is not yet broken. Then this guy is going to offer to bet you that he can make the jack of spades jump out of this brand new deck of cards and squirt cider in your ear. But, son, do not accept this bet, because as sure as you stand there, you’re going to wind up with an ear full of cider.”
Pioli knew this was possible, they play through scenarios...and lets face it, hes not worried about the media saying haley needs to be fired
he knows a 2-3 game win streak changes the approval ratings by about 30-40 percent
Team Pioli/Haley. Decade of the Chiefs.
Team Colquitt
The guy said peterson/herm
not peterson in general.
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions
I would say it was the worst team in history because nobody was devolped yet
yes we had lack of talent, but there are still a core group of guys that were on herms team that is still here plus a LJ, who at the time we still thought was good,so I wouldnt say they were left with that bad of a team. It was a team in rebuilding mode so they new what to expect. Herm had a team that was over the hill.and in turn was left with a bad team. Obviously if a coach is fired and a new one comes in. chances are that team sucks. Whole reason a new coach was brought here in first place. So that excuse doesnt go far. I think Haley/Pioli need another year or two to really finish the plan
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
lets stick to the facts
Nobody is denying that 08 team was the shits.Nobody is denying Herm Edwards wasn’t a great coach.Nobody is denying it was a time for Carl Peterson to get canned.What I am arguing is ,Haley/Pioli had talent on this roster when the got here.If my math serves me correctly,12 starters including Colquit.Not to mention ,John McGraw,Demario Williams,Andy Studebaker,most of the little depth we have ,came from the Herm era
You keep saying,‘’look what Haley was left with’’.What about what Vermeil left Herm to work with.The worst defense in football(William Bartee,Eric Downing….really?)that was neglected by Vermeil.Aging skill players on offense.An oline that was about ready to fall apart physicly.Herm had to rebuild that team,given the circumstances,I think he did a good job.HaleyPioli had a lot more to build on than Herm did.Pioli also had the 3rd pick in every round in the draft that year.
Speaking of which,what did Pioli do in that draft? 8 picks and he got an average d-lineman ,a very good kicker and 2 guys that wouldn’t making a more talented teams roster.He shit his pants that day and dropped the ball big time.Now,the 2010 draft was better,but isn’t as great as fans make it out to be.But compared to the 09 turkey ,anything would have looked good by comparrison.He took Eric Berry when most fans were split between he and Okung(I would have been happy with either).Even though Berry is on IR,it looks like that was the right call,kudos Pioil.It is the 2nd round I and many others have a problem with.
A team in desperate need of starters,with guys like Nate Allen,Mount Cody,Sean Lee ,Brandon Spikes all starters on the board,the guy decides to take not 1,but 2 gimmick players instead.A 170 lb soaking wet scat back and a CB that ran a 4.58 forty at the combine.Neither of whom can or should ever start for this team.He did rebound the next round , taking Ashamoah,good job.But then he decides to trade up for a TE that missed half his game with injuries in college.No suprise( to me anyway) the guy is hurt again.Meanwhile,Aaron Hernandez was sitting there in the 4th round and we didn’t even have to give up a pick to get him.In case you haven’t been paying attentiion,Hernandez is becoming 1 of the best TE’s in the game,while Moeaki watches on from his rehab bike at home.
Continuing on,Lewis was a hell of a find in the 5th round,Scheffield is just a fringe player.Did I forget to mention,Pioli traded 6th and 7th round picks in this loaded draft, for Andy Allerman and Idouki(however you spell his name) both started a total of 6 games.In 09 he gave up a 7th rounder to move up to get O;connel.A guy that has been on and off the roster since he got here,making 0 impact.
The jury is still out on this years draft.But,as far as free agency goes,30 million under the cap is a lot of money to be putting back in your pocket.He let Shaun Smith walk,here is a guy that plays 2 positions that only wanted a few hundred grand more ,to walk out the door.His replacement Kelly Gregg is 3 years older and only plays 1 position and looks to be wearing down.Jared Gaither was brought in despite having major back problems.He can’t even beat out Richardson for the RT spot!McClain has been good and has made some plays this year.But ,I will argue with anyone that says he is a better blocker than Mike Cox,the run game has suffered.Breaston was a great signing.He also let Brian Waters,a team leader Go who is having a pro bowl year with the pats
Sorry if I am underwhelmed by the guy
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Vermeil left Herm with a playoff team....and it was MUCH better then what Herm left for Haley.
I am fine with the 2009 draft as Pioli was stuck with Petersons scouting department.
I am MORE then fine with the 2010 (average to above average).
I think 4-5 years from now our 2011 draft will go down as one of the best in NFL History (Baldwin, Hudson, Houston, Stanzi, and Powe I think will all see a pro-bowl in the next 10 years).
You are moaning about 6th and 7th round picks…even in the best drafts teams are lucky to get training camp fodder in those rounds…let alone getting a player that actually STARTS in an NFL game.
The 30 million will be spent or divided amoung the players in short order, and you say putting it back in their pocket…not sure if you missed the part were they put 30 Million + into making Arrowhead better. But ya, Hunt is taking ALL that 30 million and just banking it. LoL
How come you make all these excuses for the guy
I f he had Petersons scouts,guess what ,that is his fault for not hiring his guys.He has final say after all ,he’s the boss.Haley had 10-12 guys he had in there prime or getting to there prime that he got from Herm.Herm got and old offense on the decline and a terrible defense that was not only the worst in the league ,but 1 of the worst all time.Who did Herm get from Vermeil that was in there PRIME? DJ and Jared Allen that is about it.And i’m not even going to bring up the qb situation he was saddled with.You just don’t want to face the facts,because you have decided Pioli can do no wrong and Herm/Peterson did no right here.I pointed out some things Pioli has done right but he has made many more bad desicions.Bottom line,this team is on the decline when it should be on the upswing
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 8:01 PM CST up reply actions
Really?
Trent Green, Larry Johnson, Tony Gonzalez, Dante Hall, Derrick Johnson, Jared Allen, 3 of the best O linemen this team has ever had, yeah Herm had nothing to work with when he got here
I said in there PRIME you must not have read that part
i already said Allen and DJ.Trent,Dante,Tony,and those 3 lineman ,were all on the downside of there careers
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 8:19 PM CST up reply actions
don't know what is so hard to understand
Trent Green 36
Dante Hall 28 retired 2 years later
Will Shields 35 retired that year
Brian Waters 30
Casey Wiegman 33
Larry Johnson 1 good season in 06
Eddie Kennison 33
Ty Law 32
Jason Dunn 33
I rest my case
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 8:44 PM CST up reply actions
and he only had Green 8 games
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
The team Herm got > team Haley got, and it is not even close.
More like 8 players who are still on the team (not 10-12). Any ‘talent’ Herm left for Haley showed up to camp as out of shape (unless you count ‘round’ as a shape) fat bodies.
I will say it one more time, the team Haley got from Herm was the worst team in Chiefs History. Its not even debateable to anyone who knows anything about Chiefs football.
Name on other GM/Coach who took over a 2 win team and made it to 10 wins and the playoffs after 2 seasons. Take your time….I will wait.
What don;t you understand
No one is saying 08 wasn’t a manure pile that Peterson Herm crafted.But,Haley got good players from Herm.Fat or not(what do you work for Jennie Craig)they were still on the roster.Herm had Damon Huard ,Brodie Croyle and Tyler Thigpen as the qb’s in 08.I doubt Haley could have done much better.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
Any success by former "Herm" players...falls on Haley and his coaching and has nothing what so ever to do with Herm.
Herm was too much of a player’s coach…the (the players) felt like everyone owed them something when the fact was they were a bunch of fat, lazy, no good, SoB’s. Their success stems from the boot Haley deposited in their a$$e$.
Still waiting on you to tell me the other GM/Coach who took over a 2 win team and made it to 10 wins and the playoff after 2 seasons saints_chiefsfan1979. I mean Pioli / Haley are just rubbish so that must mean that it’s been done by all the GM/Coaches right.
How about a team close to my heart the Saints
2005 3-13 under Hasslette
2006 10-6 under Payton
1999 3-13 with Ditka
2000 10-6 with Halette
There are actualy several
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 9:06 PM CST up reply actions
because 3-13 is so much better than 2-14
really that is the best you got?Haley isn’t doing so good this year is he
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
Parcells did it in 92 with New England
With a team much worse than the chiefs
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 9:18 PM CST up reply actions
Ding, ding, ding....
as bad, yes. Worse???
You only had to go back 20 years to find the coach that our entire current organization is based on to find the answer too. Coincidence…I think not.
Who was the coach of the D-Line that year? Now name the coaches Pioli has brought in over the last 2.5 seasons.
Ya, you are so right….that Pioli guy is clueless. ROTFLMFAO.
I'm just not going to spend my night looking up what every teams record is
whats the point?
Hasslette turned the Saints around for a year did it last? no
Tony Sparano took over a 1-15 team the next year they were an 11-5 team.Is he a great coach?no
Jim Mora JR turned ATL around for a year.How is he doing these days?
The hard part isn’t turning a team around for a year ,it is sustaining success
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 9:36 PM CST up reply actions
Ya, that whole greatest turnaround in Chiefs history isn't hard. Are you reading this cr@p befor you post?
Parcells was the force behind the Miami turnaround (not TS), and Parcells left and it all fell apart (again).
Pioli leaves Kansas City and it will be another 20 years before we sniff a Super Bowl. TBH I was SHOCKED we got someone like Pioli to being with….he leaves and Hunt will not find ANYONE who wants to come to a small market like KC (let alone the most sought after GM in the game).
Just like Green Bay couldn't get a good gm
There have been more than a few coaches to turn a team around for a year or 2 only to fizzle in the end.This team last year got a 4th place schedule and only played 2 teams with wining records.Lets call it for what it was.You have this man crush on Pioli something fierce.But go look back at his last 3 drafts with the Pats.Only 3 players he took from the 06-08 draft,are still with the the team.I want you to explain to me ,on what planet is that good drafting?Pioli is a 1 hit wonder who got lucky and picked a guy that his qb coach was begging for in the 6th round.And the rest as they say, is history
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 9:56 PM CST up reply actions
Fact its...doesn't matter what I think.
Pioli and Haley are here, and they will continue to be here. It does not matter if I like them or not, does not matter what the local media thinks, does not matter what the national media thinks.
Get used to it, get over it, or root for the Saints.
by DivineGrace on Nov 19, 2011 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
well when they continue to suck
Don’t say I didn’t try to warn you
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
Beyond bullshit....
Herm only got to coach the greatest Chiefs draft class in club history for 1 year.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
And what a year it was.
That year was the worst in Chiefs history and they all showed up fat and out of shape to start the next season…some hell-a-good coaching there.
Herm was so good he got offers to be a head coach for a number of other teams….just kidding, not one would touch Herm as a coach with a 20 foot poll and if its not beer commercials or ESPN its not going to happen for the Herminator.
you keep saying these guys are fat
is that because you saw them or because Haley told you so
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
Ok so now the players are thinner and more fit....
And our offensive and defensive lines are getting pushed around every week. Where’s the beef?
Its football, not some cross country bullshit.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
but at least they look good in shorts
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Nov 19, 2011 9:38 PM CST up reply actions
Haley, and every announcer who called a game for the Chiefs (both local and national)
That and reports from people who attended the camps, and the players said so too.
You honestly think Haley will get another offer after Pioli fires him?
Pioli should be thanking his lucky stars that the players Herm brought in are covering up the stench of his incompetence
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 19, 2011 9:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Haley is going nowhere....this season, next season, or the next 3-4 after that. He is here to stay and I like it.
So….if you don’t like Pioli or Haley you will not like the Chiefs for a LONG time. Get used to it, get over it, or get another team to root for. (in saints_chiefsfan1979 he already has the ‘other team to root for coverd’).
So if someone doesnt like the coach they have to get another team?
There is times I dont like my ’ol lady. Guess I better start fishing
by TheScreenName on Nov 19, 2011 11:32 PM CST up reply actions
..ummm
probably not directly but in a round a bout way. If you read it again I am sure you will get where I make that reply. Saying that if we dont like Pioli or Haley then we wont like the chiefs is kinda bullshit. You can like the team but hate the coach (which I like Haley and Pioli but not all the choices). But thanks for your comment.
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 2:53 PM CST up reply actions
I try not to read into what is said.
I usually go by what is actually said.
I agree with you that the logic of ‘if you don’t like the GM/Coach you won’t like the team’ is unsound. And if you had commented on that I wouldn’t have replied. Sorry. I’ve just found that it creates less misunderstanding that way.
I was just pointing out to you that you turned what he said into something that he didn’t say (you don’t like the coach you have to get another team). He may have meant it that way…I don’t know, but he didn’t write it that way.
"Get use to it, get over it, or get another team"
??…ok.So I should have worded it, If someone doesnt want to get use to having a coach they dont like, or doesnt want to get over it, they need to get another team?
Better? Dont loose to much sleep over it : )
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
but seems by your profile
getting another team wont be a problem for you
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 6:39 PM CST up reply actions
: )
Luckily for me I don’t have to get another team…I like the GM and coach!
I am a temporary fan of many teams. Just today I was a fan of the Cardinals, Bears (though normally I don’t like them), Panthers, Lions, Dolphins, and Redskins.
Unfortunately for everyone on this site I love the Chiefs regardless how they do. Fortunately for everyone on this site, I usually click Cancel after I type a reply instead of Post.
To clarify...
Pioli / Haley are here for the long haul.
If that pisses you off you can…
get used to it,
get over it,
or find another team to root for.
I will add this other possibility (which IMO is the worst of all options)….continue to be pissed of all the time (Life is too short to live being pissed off, IMO anyway).
who said they were pissed?
People have opinions of their teams and who leads them. They put in a lot of emotions to be a fan and its normal to give a some emotion back. Lets just hope we win a championship here soon and who cares who leads the team to it
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 11:57 PM CST up reply actions
For the record
I like Haley/Pioli but understand why people may not.
by TheScreenName on Nov 21, 2011 12:00 AM CST up reply actions
I think what you are missing, is just how bad this team was, and how far you have to go in order to have a year in, and year out, winner
imo, expect 2 more years of waiting
haley and pioli are going nowhere
hunt LOVES pioli and why hes here, he sees the dedication, and imo thinks it will pay off
haley is the guy for the job right now, and next year for certain IMO
its time to accept that til we hear otherwise from those in charge….both of whom have claimed all is beyond well, and they are very happy with progress made but still realize its a serious work in progress
did jimmy johnson need the one year in dallas? yes, but he was aided but a load of role players coming in, and a ton of draft picks.
this will take a little time for pioli to feel comfortable with each position group. this means more turnover
Team Pioli/Haley. Decade of the Chiefs.
Team Colquitt
I'm starting to have issues with Haley, because of coaching-related things I see during the games.
We’ll have some measure of how QB-related those issues are, with a couple weeks of Palko. We’ll just see how the OL picks ‘em up ’n’ puts ’em down, with the more energetic Palko in there. Communication breakdowns between coaches and the QB are coaching-related, but how the QB handles it also makes a difference, and how the players respond is also QB-related.
To some extent, the offense looks robotic. Could be over-coaching or coaching that doesn’t give the players enough authority (over-coaching but under-training?). Sometimes, as a teacher, the BETTER I lay things out for my students, the lazier they become, mentally. Sometimes, my worst lectures lead to the most learning, because the students have to take some steps on their own, or somebody bright stops me in my tracks, when I multiplied 2*3 and got 5. That mistake all of a sudden has everybody looking at my board work CRITICALLY, rather than just passively watching my dog and pony show, where all arithmetic is easy and all answers come out fraction-free, because of my careful preparations.
When I look at what Pioli has done, I have a hard time tracking or predicting any one decision, but when I step back and look at the sum total, I see a rising tide. But I am starting to have issues with the coaching and some of the playcalling. We’ll see if the execution level on the street-ball side ratchets upward with Palko in there. Sometimes you can be dialing-it-up correctly, but there’s just not quite enough on the execution side.
I still like Cassel, although he needs to get rid of the little-boy haircut. Grow it out or cut it short, but get rid of that duck’s tail between your neck tendons, kid.
would of ≠ would've
Here is my easiest breakdown
tank tyler, and a 4th, for moeaki
thigpen for sheffield
traded back 5 spots in 1st for Houston
Magee and a 6th for Stanzi
Wade Smith leaving in FA=J.Powe
2nd for Cassel and Vrabel
Gonzalez for Arenas
Future 7th for O’Connell
Team Pioli/Haley. Decade of the Chiefs.
Team Colquitt
Giving Pioli a pass in 2009 on his draft is a freaking joke. Yes he did not have scouts in place he wanted but what the hell was he doing in NE for 8 months after the 2008 draft. ?
For him not to know who the NE scouts were looking at is unexcuseable. He still had 4 months after the Chiefs hire that he could have gather information. Hell I find valuable information all over the internet and could have picked a better draft class in 2009 than he did. Also the 2011 draft is looking more and more like the 2009 draft.
In my opinion he has done no more than a average job at best in Kansas City.
by NFL season ticket holder on Nov 20, 2011 12:13 AM CST reply actions
Didnt even look at it that way
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 12:19 AM CST up reply actions
I'm sure Pioli had plenty of Intel for the '09 draft.
What he was caught flat-footed on was the state of his O-Line. I wouldn’t’ve spent a 2nd on Cassel and Vrabel, but I can’t say that the infusion of culture-change wasn’t a net gain for the team. But I don’t think they had any idea just how piss-poor they were in the trenches – BOTH sides – until ‘09 training camp, when about all they could do was sniff around the refuse piles of teams that were working in their own new starters, and releasing/trading players who were better than KC’s.
I liked Alex Magee a lot better coming in, than I did afterward. I LIKED the idea of DL-overkill, and doubling-up on the DE position. I’m not sure Magee would’ve busted as a Chief, if Romeo Crennel had been the DC. I’m pretty sure that if I were DC, that Turk McBride would’ve found a niche. But with all the ballerina crap Crennel is asking from the SOLB, I doubt McBride would’ve stuck, with Pendie or Crennel at DC.
I wouldn’t’ve spent that 2nd-rounder the way Pioli did. I’d’ve drafted a RT, most likely, at the bottom of the 1st or top of the 2nd. Judging by the lack of action by Ron Brace, who’s been far less productive than T-Jax, passing on him was prob’ly good..
I think the Chiefs were caught off-guard by Tank Tyler not developing into a 3-4 NT.
The thing I really like about Pioli is he’s pretty systematic about upgrading the team across-the-board. While everybody likes his 2010 draft the most, the last thing I’d be spending my 2nd and 3rd picks on would be pint-sized kick-returners. I like both players, but they’re the kind of players you add for a spark on top of a solidly-constructed team. Seemed to me like Pioli ducked the trenches issue and we were distracted by the addition of a couple playmakers, even though they didn’t make very rapid progress on play-enablers.
I thought the ‘09 draft was ugly, the way a team-build draft is supposed to be ugly. Get MORE big uglies, sez I. I don’t care if it makes for lots of splash and dash, if it means the fundamentals continue pointing upward. The 2010 draft was good for manufacturing wins with skill over teams that were weak up front, but didn’t do much to build a team that can win ugly, by fighting their battles on the OTHER guy’s side of the line of scrimmage. Get THOSE kinds of superior trench play, and THEN start installing your scat backs and quarterbacks on top.
would of ≠ would've
Yes
Pioli has missed a lot!!
2009 awful
2010 bad
2011 still early, but I am not excited yet.
So, here Pioli do this……….
Sign: QB Matt Flynn (GB), TE Jacob Tamme (Indy), LT Demetrius Bell (Buf), Carr, D Bowe.
We trade down with NE, they get our #9 overall and our #63, we get #27, #29 and 2nd rounder #61.
R1 #27 G Cordy Glenn-Georgia
R1 #29 RB Chris Polk-Washington
R2 #41 ILB Manti Te’o-Notre Dame
R2 #61 FS Robert Lester-Alabama
R4 #105 CB Micah Hyde-Iowa
R5 #137 NT Nicholas Jean-Baptiste – Baylor
R6 #169 DE Kaleb Ramsey-Boston College
R7 #201 FS Tramain Thomas-Arkansas
- O line would be set LT Bell, LG Glenn, C Hudson, RG Asomaoh, RT Alberts**
- Flynn competes with Cassel, Polk takes over Jones’ role and Te’o starts day one***
Lets sign ANOTHER backup QB
that makes great sense
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Matt Flynn is legit and would be a better option than anything we have right now
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 20, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
I am sure he is
but what exactly has he done in NFL to say he is a great option for us? We have a late round draft pick already in Stanzi so why not try him out.
by TheScreenName on Nov 20, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
Matt Flynn is legit in the exact same way Cassel was when he was in NE
He came into a great team with an injured quarterback and looked awesome. Put him on a mediocre team, and he’ll become average.
Matt Flynn could be a very good QB in the NFL.
Some backups have had success taking on a full-time starter role. Matt Schaub.
I can now say this with a straight face, and it will be accurate: Tim Tebow is a better QB than Matt Cassel.
by ProbablyYoungerThanAllOfYou on Nov 20, 2011 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
I like to add competition at the QB spot (and continue to do so until the position is LOCKED DOWN) so I wouldn't mind picking up Matt Flynn.
Love me a little Jacob Tamme, and Bell wouldn’t hurt my feelings eaither…all good picks.
Other then RB in the first, I like you mock draft too, replace that pick with Dwayne Allen (TE – Clemson) and I think you have something really good. (Even with Tamme, I want more depth at TE…Moeaki, Tamme, AND Allen would be some healla good depth).
Well
I really like Polk. I think with Charles hurt we have forgotten that he isnt a 25 carry a game guy. Our offense would work well with Charles at 15-20 carries and Polk 5-10.
I think with the above O line, Cassell or Flynn could be at the helm of a very good offense.
I agree that we need another "bigger' back.
I loved what Jones did for us last year, and Battle has been more then serviceable however, we do need another RB. I just wouldn’t take one in the first round. Lots of good back come from latter rounds (or went undrafted).
Two things to remember
1) Yes his first draft was bad, but that was a terrible thin class. I think if we examine all teams drafts that year, ours is probably about average in player quality and retension.
2) Free agency hasn’t had big impact hauls, but it’s important to note that it’s a 2 way street. The players have to WANT to play here.
by Chiefsfansince85 on Nov 21, 2011 2:39 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Good article, but
you forgot to mention he grossly overpaid Matt Cassel.
Cassel is a borderline starter (I could name 20 QB’s better than he is) and yet Pioli paid him like a top-5 QB. I know we have plenty of cap room, but that signing was by far the worst thing Pioli has done in KC. Hopefully Orton will open the door for Matt “GD” Cassel getting cut in the off-season.
Jared Allen wouldn't have fit the 3-4 anyway...
Excellent Work!
Finally a fair, fact supported article on Pioli. Especially highlighting the condition of the really bad, undisciplined, out of shape players operating in a loser environment created by Herm and Carl. With the injuries, weak FA market and CBA limitations it is no wonder we have struggled. The depth will improve as the starters solidify. Pioli has resigned all of our talented players, brought in FA’s who have made a difference. Turning around a franchise takes time and they are building something special for us to enjoy for many years.
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