Revisiting The 'Fleece Job' That Was The Matt Cassel Trade
by Joel Thorman on Nov 16, 2011 8:30 AM CST
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PrintAt the end of February as free agency was starting, word came out that the Kansas City Chiefs, now under GM Scott Pioli's control, had traded for LB Mike Vrabel. A few hours later, news started coming out on more details of the trade -- QB Matt Cassel was included.
It ended up being Vrabel and Cassel for the Chiefs second round pick (which turned into S Patrick Chung). Chiefs fans were, for the most part, happy about the trade considering the price tag. We had a 91 percent approval rating in a poll posted shortly after the trade was completed. Patriots fans, on the other hand, didn't think it was a very good trade.
Josh Looney of KCChiefs.com had Mike Reiss of ESPNBoston.com on Chiefs Live! this week and asked him about the reaction to the trade back in New England.
"They were disappointed," Reiss said of the fans' reaction to sending Cassel and Vrabel to KC for a second round pick. "They had visions of maybe a first round pick, multiple firsts. They were disappointed it was only a second round pick and Mike Vrabel, one of the great Patriots of the last decade of the championship run, was included in the trade. They thought it was a fleece job.
"Of course, what happened, I don't think a market developed like the Patriots thought it would and they took the best offer. Looking back at the trade, I think a lot of people were disappointed.
"They were happy in one sense to draft a player in the seventh round and work with him, develop him and turn that into a second round. I think people thought they were going to get more out of it. That's another story line we can touch on this week leading up to the game -- that pick turned out to be safety Patrick Chung,
"So if you could do it all over again, Cassel and Vrabel for Chung, how do you like that exchange? I think they're pleased with Chung but he's still a developing player."
Obviously things have changed over the years and our view of the trade is probably different these days but it's interesting to go back to that day and remember thinking that the Chiefs got a hell of a deal.
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Hindsight's always 20/20, but it was still a good trade for the Chiefs to make at the time.
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
by severn58 on Nov 16, 2011 8:34 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
how do you figure?
it hamstrung the offense and offensive coordinator for 3 years and counting. Maybe we draft a QB the following year instead.
by rdub on Nov 16, 2011 8:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hence, "At the time", and "Hindsight being 20/20"
Seeing what our options were QB wise at the time, and getting both for a 2nd considering what teams were trading for:
Matt Schaub
Kevin Kolb
Carson Palmer
For that price, without knowing how it’d turn out, I can’t see how it was a bad trade.
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
We should have...
hind sight yay yay and all that jazz being said, a great move would have been to do the trade as we did then trade cassel to denver the next day for cutler and maybe a mid round pick (why not Josh McDaniels gave everything else Denver had away). Cutler may be an ahole but he is a good qb. I remember thinking about this when all that crap came out about mickey d and cutler over the interest in cassel.
**Heres to 5 err 4 more years of JC!!!!**
If our guys actually believed Cassel was the QB to go with
then why would they give him to a division rival? For that matter, why would Denver give us Cutler?
Yes this would have been great in dreamy-dream world, but I don’t think it was a realistic option. I’d take Cutler over Cassel any day of the week, but my opinion doesn’t play into it.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Simple
Cutler wanted out BAD because of Mcy D and the whole Cassel thing if you remember correctly which lead to him being in Chicago and Mcy D wanted Cassel so bad that he voiced his opinion resulting in having niether Cutler nor Cassel. Why take Custler at that time? Easy, he was/is a proven starter with more potential then Cassel. The way things played out I doubt there was ever even an option for this to happen.
**Heres to 5 err 4 more years of JC!!!!**
WRONG.
Cutler wanted out after Shanahan was fired and before McDaniels was hired.
Thought food: if Joe Sacco is fired, Sylvain Lefebvre will be the Avs' new head coach. Think about it.
The 2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: there will be blood and there will be wins.
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
The Number Zero, now in colour. Blood and Thunder Record: 7-7-1 (Total Record: 8-11-1)
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 17, 2011 12:48 AM CST up reply actions
Umm No sir you are wrong
Dont know where you where when all this happen but rather then me listing 50000 quotes or links just simply google “Cutler wants out of Denver” and you will come up with pages of legit articles and stories about this all pertaining to McDaniels and Cassel. Dont know where you came up with Shanahan.
**Heres to 5 err 4 more years of JC!!!!**
And I'm no fan of Cassel's, just saying it had promise at the time.
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
I agree
He was really the best available at the time…unless one was drafted.
I dislike #7 too, but it was a good move.
To get him and Vrabel for a 2nd was a no brainer
At least it was 1 pick in 1 year, and we weren’t paying for it for years. Plus we normally suck at drafting in the 2nd round anyway.
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
taking
a chance on Cassel with a second rounder was not my issue.
Not sure id call it a no brainer.
The stupid 60million dollar contract- i had, and still have issues with.
It was a dumb move then, and even dumber looking back.
It wasn't a dumb move then, and even with hindsight..it wasn't a dumb move now.
Cassel was franchised.. which means he was guarenteed to make the average of the top 5 QB for the first year… that was $14.65 million at the time. There wasn’t a snowballs chance in hell of Cassel’s agent agreeing to a salary of LESS than the franchise tag, just because he was traded. The guy was going to make 14.65 in year 1.
If the Chiefs had signed him to a 1 year contract.. he would have been a free agent at the end of the year….forcing the Chiefs to franchise tag him if they wanted to keep him, or get any value out of him in a trade. So tack on another 10% pay raise.. $16.12 million for year 2. No matter what.. Cassel was going to make $16.12 in year 2 if the Chiefs had chosen to keep him (which they did, obviously).
So thats $30 million dollars over 2 years that Cassel was going to get one way or another. There was no chance he was going to accept LESS than $30 mil guarenteed in a long term deal… PERIOD.. no chance!
So, the Chiefs could have signed him to a 1 year franchise, then tagged him and paid the franchise the next year.. and spent over $30mil guarenteed
…..or…. they could have signed him to a 2 or 3 year deal for $30 mil guarenteed and about $40mil in total with an option in the 3rd year to cut/trade/tag him. (that tag would have cost them another $17.5 mil BTW)
….or they could sign him to a long term deal say 5 or 6 years.. for about $60-$70 million with $30 mil guarenteed… which they did.
They front loaded the contract so that in the final 3 years of his deal he averages out aroun $8 million a year…. which is CHEAP for a starting QB in the NFL with more than 2 years starting experience. WAY CHEAP.
They were going to pay him $30mil no matter what….and if tagged for the 3rd year it would have cost $47.5 guarenteed for 3 seasons. Instead we got a starter we believed in for $30 guarenteed (the cheapest his agent would have ever agreed to) with a easy pay non-guarenteed back end that would allow the Chiefs to trade him or even flat out cut him after 3 seasons without any long term reprocussions… BUT they also had him locked up for a few more years so that IF he played well and they want to keep him… they get him CHEAP for 3 more years until they lost rights and had to give him a second big pay day.
You may not think Cassel is WORTH $60mil with $30 guarenteed…. but it wasn’t a dumb move at all, nor was it a bad deal in any way, shape, or form. The Chiefs got Cassel for the bare min. they could pay a franchised player AND they got his rights for a long term deal that’s cheap on the back side…. and they got it all for the guarenteed money they would have HAD to pay if they had just done a 2 year deal, or two consecutive 1 year deals.
That contract was an absolute STEAL at the time, and even considering his play..is STILL a damn good deal for a NFL starting QB.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Nov 16, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Obviously my numbers are not perfect here, it's been about a year since I looked them all up
But Cassel was going to make the $28 million in guarenteed money in the first TWO years… no matter what. His agent would NEVER have settled for less.
The fact we got another 4 years for $35 million non guarenteed is great negotiating by the contract team. The fact that his contract was so heavily front loaded is another huge bonus.. as it allows us to cut him after the forst 3 seasons (and face it, you aren’t going to trade picks for a QB and then NOT give him 2 or 3 years to prove himself)…. without taking any hit at all is also great.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
As much as I have been bagging on Cassel
this was a good trade at the time. KC needed a starting caliber QB to replace Tyler Thigpen, so Pioli took a flier on Cassel.
2010 = The beginning of a dynasty
by ChiefWildcat on Nov 16, 2011 8:42 AM CST up reply actions
I am as big of a Cassel critic at the time, but I still have no problem with the trade and even the contract.
Nobody really knew what Cassel was, and at least Pioli was making an effort to fiind the QB of the future. Vrabel was also good for DJ and the defense in general.
My problem is now, that I have seen enough to know we need to upgrade the QB position, and sure hope Pioli is willing to admit a mistake and move on.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
meh ... no issue with the trade itself, but the contract irks me, always has
then too, I get upset about any player with a huge contract who hasn’t “proven” himself … and yeah, I still think players should get “performance pay” (how do you figure it out so it’s fiar? I have no idea and will leave that to better minds than mine, but that’s my belief: performance pay is the way to go)
so, if it was the right trade at the time, how could it have been a mistake? well, it wasn’t at the time
that said, yeah we need an upgrade (like duh!!) … I think the mistake has been to be content with Cassel as being “The Franchise” … it’s long been clear that he isn’t
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
by upamtn on Nov 16, 2011 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Why get upset over the contract? Its not like it maxed out the cap.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
true, but still ... what's the guy done to EARN the money? money that could (and should?) be spent (and better spent) elsewhere ...
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
wait, you mean he's full of CANDY?
damn, if I’d only known!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Well, to be fair - I've seen a few games where I wanted to beat him with a stick.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Ryan Mallet is also full of candy
oh…. you meant actual candy, not nose candy
You can't spell Power without Powe.
He made a pro-bowl and took them to the playoffs last year
He’s earned his contract just as much as a guy like Sanchez has. Who cares about his paycheck anyway? He got a pretty middle of the road deal for a starting QB, especially one with the franchise tag on him due to make 15-20 mil in just one season.
by CapsLockKey on Nov 16, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
yeah, the TEAM made the playoffs last year ...
how? by winning games against the weakest NFL in the history of the league … and Cassel had his productive days against those same doormats
big deal
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
At least he performed well against doormats
The QBs the Chiefs had before him couldn’t even do that.
by CapsLockKey on Nov 16, 2011 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Because the Chiefs were the doormats?
Thought food: if Joe Sacco is fired, Sylvain Lefebvre will be the Avs' new head coach. Think about it.
The 2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: there will be blood and there will be wins.
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
The Number Zero, for everything but mathematics. Blood and Thunder Record: 7-8-1 (Total Record: 8-12-1)
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 17, 2011 12:52 AM CST up reply actions
FWIW
Brian Waters made the Pro Bowl and took the team to the playoffs last year
ok? ok!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
You pay guys on what you expect them to produce
not what they have produced. When you pay a guy on what he has produced, you get LJ, CJ, etc. You cut a check based on what you expect a guy to produce, and Cassel’s contract was around average all things considered.
Another thing you have to keep in mind is that he was franchised, so he was guaranteed a year at $15 mil, the contract he was given was meant to account for and avoid that.
You can't spell Power without Powe.
Eh, that contract was pretty smart.
People keep touting $63mil like that’s what he gets paid. That was the max possible value of the contract.
$28 mil was guaranteed.
It was front loaded at a time when we were WAY under the cap, and structured so that after 3 years he can be cut extremely cheaply for a starting QB. That contract was very smart indeed. He had one decent season and two bad ones. The window is closing around the time he’s easy to let go.
What’s so bad about that contract?
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
$28 Million reasons it wasn't a good contract
think of how many teachers that would pay for …
hey, it’s an idea
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
So now you're just complaining that pro athletes make more than teachers do.
And it has nothing to do with Cassel and his contract.
Plus pro sports franchises don’t fund teachers’ salaries. State governments do. Cassel’s contract was pretty average for a starting NFL QB.
Why not complain about how much Jackson and Dorsey make as top 5 picks with those hefty rookie contracts under the old CBA? Or Eric Berry? Sure he’s great, but he’s missing a season and makes more in a year than most of us working class people make in our lifetimes.
C’mon ups, you’re reaching here.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Agreed 100%
But I really did like the thought of drafting Mark Sanchez. Obviously Stafford was not going to fall to #3 and I never imagined Josh Freeman having the year he did in 2010 (though he looks to have taken a step back this season). So even if they had gone “my route” and drafted Sanchez, there’s no guarantee that we’d be happy now with him either.
Your eyes tell you more than any statistics can.
Sanchez would be a wash. I'd much rather have a QB from this year's talent pool.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
This upcoming draft class, if that makes you feel better.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
oh, my bad
I thought you meant from the draft class just passed since guys like Newton and Dalton are proving to be pretty damn good.
You can't spell Power without Powe.
Nope. I mean this year's college QB's who will be entering the draft.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
I can think of five I'd rather have
1. Luck
2. RG3
3. Barkley
4. Weeden
5. Russell Wilson
Landry Jones falls just outside this list. Hell, at this point, given the line we have, I’d take Collin Klein.
BTW, have you heard?
The “Lay a Turd for Robert Griffin the Third” bandwagon is starting to gain membership…
This fella at USA Today is already mock drafting and whaddya know, who does he have going to KC?
Nevermind where he has us finishing based on that (ahead of SD, behind Denver, and Oakland top 7).
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 2:29 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Jebus - sorry, wrong link - and it's Fox Sports
However, that story about RG3 actually changed a lot of my perception about him. I wasn’t a believer before… but I’m starting to turn.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
Saw him live at KState
He is smooth, dude. Looks like the real deal. Makes all the throws look easy.
Saw RG3 live at KState
The guy is smooth. Makes all the throws look easy. He looks like the real deal.
Tried to post this a second ago, but seemingly it disappeared. Hope it doesn’t double-post me.
That's some mighty fine nick-naming there, rec
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
why??
if nobody really knew what Cassel was, then why hell pay him $63 million?? that’s horrible GMing there, even somebody with an IQ of 100 can tell you that, sure let me pay $63 million for something i have no idea what i’m getting besides a leader… you know what happens to people like Cassel in war, they lead their “team” right into death cause he doesn’t know how to fight…
Either that, or you know nothing about how contracts and agents work in the NFL...
that’s horrible GMing there, even somebody with an IQ of 100 can tell you that
Start looking up franchise tag numbers for the years in question. $28 mil guarenteed for a long term deal…. on a player that was going to make the $28 million in TWO years NO MATTER WHAT.. because of the way franchise tagged salaries are done in the NFL is superior GMing, even a 1st year sports contract lawyer can tell you that.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Yeah we definitley don't need to "UPGRADE" the pass protection, cause you know, Cassel should strop the THREE guys that always had penetration! And don't get me started on picking up the blitz.
You guys enjoy tthe final 7 games of the season with Saviour Palko and Stanzi City.
GEEEEEZZZZZAAAAAWS!
"In my experience, there is no such thing as luck."
"It's not always going to be pretty; and that's alright..."
We're not saying Palko, or Stanzi will be any better.
They might we don’t know. But we’ve seen Cassel can’t do it. I’m glad to give someone else a shot
I don't have a catchy, catch phrase.
Again just gloss over the SHIT performance by our pass blocking scheme.
"In my experience, there is no such thing as luck."
"It's not always going to be pretty; and that's alright..."
Chiefwildcat
interestingly Cassel did well in NE playing in a shotgun offense.We had that guy in Thigpen.Looking at this reasonably why didn’t the chiefs use more shotgun when they got Cassel & play to his strengths?It’s obvious that the reason Cassel hasn’t been successful is that they have changed what made him excel in NE.
John Soellner
If you'll remember
NE had absolutely NO running game. They had to pass and their system was set for the short passing game. When Cassel came here, it was just the opposite. KC didn’t have squat at WR, but we had a good running game.
2010 = The beginning of a dynasty
by ChiefWildcat on Nov 16, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
Actually
When Baldwin got healthy enough to play, I think KC should have gone to the 5 wide sets. Our strength now is at WR, so we should play to our strengths.
2010 = The beginning of a dynasty
by ChiefWildcat on Nov 16, 2011 9:22 AM CST up reply actions
Actually,
back in 2007-2009, it was the Josh McDaniels air it deep and intermediate plays. When Cassel stepped in, McD, took some of the plays out, created plays which maximized his ability.
I remember Moss running couple of Wes Welker’s plays.
Also, NE ran for around 2300 yards in 2008. Most since 2004.
by Revenge of the Fallen on Nov 16, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, because Fitzpatrick has been lighting it up ever since signing a big extension.
Teams are adjusting to Chan’s gimmicky spread offense.
Disagree, and said so unequivocally at the time
That’s not hindsight.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Nov 16, 2011 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
Agree.
Thought food: if Joe Sacco is fired, Sylvain Lefebvre will be the Avs' new head coach. Think about it.
The 2011-2012 Colorado Avalanche: there will be blood and there will be wins.
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
The Number Zero, for everything but mathematics. Blood and Thunder Record: 7-8-1 (Total Record: 8-12-1)
by Tempestuous Binary on Nov 17, 2011 12:54 AM CST up reply actions
I liked the trade and expected more from Matt...
after three years, I don’t feel like he is our guy going forward and I hope that Pioli realizes this and makes moves through the draft to get us a franchise guy…
First of all, you throwin' too many big words at me, and because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect...
by SFLChief on Nov 16, 2011 8:40 AM CST reply actions 5 recs
^^^ This right here. Amen.
My earliest Chiefs memories are watching guys named Dawson, Podolak, Taylor, Thomas, Bell, and Buchanan. So, yeah...I'm kind of an old fart.
you guys make it sound so easy to just drop a qb, and pick another one..look around the league…it’s not easy to find a top 10 qb
The front line SUCKS worse.
"In my experience, there is no such thing as luck."
"It's not always going to be pretty; and that's alright..."
I will...
The front line would look a hell of a lot better if we had a QB that could read the D and make quick decisions and get the ball out of his hands. It’s almost like he has no faith that the plays will work and just waits for the outlet back to come free so he can dump it every time. He sucks!
RUN DEXTER RUN!!!!
by ARROWHEADSHANE on Nov 16, 2011 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Your saying the O line doesn't suck?
That is not debatable.
Not at all
I’m saying the “who sucks worse” argument is debatable. For a fair portion of the year the QB was worse, now the o-line is.
With his contract
if I remember correctly, it was $63M total but with $28M in guaranteed money and all $28M of that coming in the first two years…meaning they could dump him next year without a cap hit. So if we’re drafting near the top, it actually would be easy this particular year to “just drop a QB and pick another one.” It’s not a habit I’d want any franchise to get used to doing though…just saying this particular year would be the best opportunity for the Chiefs.
Your eyes tell you more than any statistics can.
It's not easy
but you aren’t going to find one when you don’t even try either.
by CapsLockKey on Nov 16, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
The trade that year hasn't hurt the team as much as picking TJax has...
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
I thought it was Lawrence
I’m so confused
Men succeed when they realize that their failures are the preparation for their victories.
by KingChief on Nov 16, 2011 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The draft was bad period.
TJax hasn’t been good, but it’s not like drafting Aaron Curry or Michael Crabtree like many fans wanted would have been any better. I give Pioli a pass on that draft. He wasn’t fully prepared being with the team only a couple months and the general lack of talent in the draft.
by CapsLockKey on Nov 16, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
I'm giving him a pass on the trade, looked good at the time and Hell both players were decent stop gaps...
but it isn’t going to work long term. Harder for me to give a pass on the TJax pick when Raji and owning the NFL.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 16, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
I don't think any of us would rather have T.Jax than Raji
and I’d let someone rip one of my toenails off if they could find a way for us to go back in time and make that pick instead.
In the scheme of things we didn’t make the worst pick. But clearly we didn’t make the best either.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
You have to draft the best player.
Pioli drafted TJ because we needed a DE. Who really thought he was a top 3 player?
We could have got an impact player, instead we got a below average starter. Our problem with our defense is, we need book ends when we rush the passer and a NT to push the pocket back. Hali is the only one getting pressure, and when Hali gets shut down we have nobody getting pressure, this is why Matt Moore picked us apart. Raji would have been a great pick and allowed us to push the pocket back.
I believe they thought he was the best player at that spot
and if they were clouded by picking solely on “need” instead of BPA then that is their folley. I think they used a mix of both.
Do me a favor – reach into your bag of tricks and tell me ONE other D-line player other than Raji and T.Jax that came out of the ‘09 draft that would have been a better pick? Not just a pick at all, but a top 3 pick. And try your scout’s-best to restrict it to players that could actually fit a 3-4 DL, e.g., you can’t pick Orakpo because there’s no way he’s playing DL in a 3-4. I’ll even let you go through and take college DTs and convert them to DE (a la Alex MaGee). Go ahead and look for an NT in there while you’re at it.
Let me help you – there weren’t any. There maybe 2 other DE’s in Jackson’s ballpark in terms of size (needed for 3-4 DE).
There were 2-3 guys in the whole draft that had 3-4 NT type size – Raji, Ron Brace, Sammie Lee Hill, and Vaughn Martin. Raji is the only one in that group that has done anything… at least Martin is getting some starts finally in his 3rd year.
So we’ve narrowed it back down to Raji or Jackson – and again, Raji was clearly the better choice and we missed on him. So did 8 other teams who, other than the Lions w/Stafford would have been better served to take Raji (yes, even better than Sanchez).
Other than Sanchez and Stafford – every one of those other 8 picks has seen struggles, some hardly see the field, some aren’t even with the team anymore (Curry). While we didn’t nail it with Jackson, it’s not like we totally got the shit-end of the stick – unless you’re looking at it with Raji-blinders on thinking that anything else was a pure bust.
Perhaps the argument is that we shouldn’t have gone after DL at all. There are some other players that in hindsight may have been worthy of a #3 pick (Clay Matthews, Alex Mack, Cushing, Vontae Davis, Freeman? Britt? Harvin?) – but it’s tough to remember the pre-draft chatter on these players… Freeman was a reach at 17, remember? And consider position as well – Centers (Mack) weren’t taken at #3 period. LB is even a tough call in the top 3. With that high of a pick, with the old CBA (no wage scale), you were limited to a few positions in terms of cost of contract compared to value of pick – QB, RB, WR, CB, OL, DL. There was only so much you could do with that pick – with these conditions in mind it wasn’t such a terrible choice.
We needed DL help, we made a choice, we thought it was good, in hindsight it wasn’t the best. 32 other teams in the NFL can say the exact same thing about some draft pick at some point.
BTW – here’s the list of all DL players drafted in ‘09 – bear in mind many of these guys transitioned to LB in the NFL – Barwin, Orakpo, Maybin, etc. Others like Wynn play in a 4-3 and don’t have the size to play a 3-4.
Connor Barwin, Cody Brown, Everette Brown, Victor Butler, Will Davis, Larry English, Jarron Gilbert, Tyson Jackson, Michael Johnson, Paul Kruger, Aaron Maybin, Clinton McDonald, Henry Melton, Kyle Moore, Slade Norris, Brian Orakpo, Nick Reed, Matt Shaughnessy, Lawrence Sidbury Jr, Stryker Sulak, David Veikune, Brandon Williams, Jarius Wynn, Corvey Irvin, Ron Brace, Ra’Shon Harris, Sammie Lee Hill, Evander Hood, Ricky Jean-Francois, Peria Jerry, Terrance Knighton, Alex Magee, Sen’Derrick Marks, Vaughn Martin, Roy Miller, Fili Moala, Myron Pryor, B.J. Raji, Darryl Richard, Dorell Scott, Terrance Taylor, Vance Walker,.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
TJ was considered top 10
Raji fell to #9, so sounds to me it could have been a coin flip in that regard on which one to go with. Obviously Pioli picked the wrong one.
I didn't like the trade when it happened
Vrabel was a leader, but he was on his way out the door at that point and Cassel was just chucking the ball as deep as he could to Moss. I kinda felt like this was a handshake deal he made with Pioli when he left.
Men succeed when they realize that their failures are the preparation for their victories.
The one thing you're forgetting...
Is Vraabel was great for the young LBs here too. Without him, are DJ and Hali as good as they’ve been? I don’t think so
At the time I kept thinking -
What’s the catch..?
I still would have done it over again.
Sent via HTC Evo for Android..
by chiefsfan62 on Nov 16, 2011 8:48 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Personally i thought Croyle was getting better
Personally our team would of been just as a good if not better with Croyle, yeah he was fragile but first, we wouldn’t of paid $63 million to him opening up alot more room on the Salary…. Second Croyle was constantly working on his touch passes cause we already knew he had a rocket arm…. also we could of maybe kept that second rounder and also kept Tony Gonzalez… would rather have TG than MC… atleast if we had a QB that could get it to TG we knew he would catch it…
Cassel is better than Brodie
and Cassel sucks.
I don't have a catchy, catch phrase.
100% correct. Cassel is a LOT better than Brokie Crumple, and Cassel is mediocre as an NFL starter.
The unexplainable man love for Broken Clavical never ceases to amaze me.
In his entire career he won zero games, only looked even decent in ONE game, and was injured more times than he threw touchdowns.
He could throw it DEEP… but he could also throw it DEEP into double and tripple coverage to a guy he NEVER should have thrown it to in the first place…and his short tomid range passes were thrown with just as much force as his deep ball… no “touch” at all. He coulnd’t read an NFL defense any faster, or better than Cassel.. in fact.. he was worse at it.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Not in this reality
Croyle would’ve been better than who? Charlie Brown? Seriously that rocket arm is great and all when its aimed at your own receivers . No we were better off treading water with cassel than sinking with Croyle and of course we expected it to go better than it did.
I wish Cassel’s abilities lined up with his personality strengths it sucks when you get a guy that you really want to succeed but he just can’t cut it… It almost makes me sympathize with
Tebow fans but not quite Cassel has never been hyped that much.
Croyles Rocket arm
I remember Croyle throwing a ball 20+ yards down the field to the sideline on a Covered TG… i havn’t seen Cassel throw a single ball like that yet…. Croyle was getting better and better… and if you can’t call that Accuracy then your full of yourselves or just trying to get into Cassel $63 Million pants
Croyle is sitting at home
Not even on a current roster. get over it.
Never argue with an Idiot...... they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
sometimes I wonder how they would do that chalk outline, if you pushed someone into a tree chipper.
true that
yeah would of figured atleast Indy would of picked him up, he’s for sure better than those 2 backups over there…
Better at filing disability papers
I don't have a catchy, catch phrase.
only problem
he just can’t stay healthy is true…. dude is my weight with a popeye forearm… that looks like it accounts for atleast half of his total weight
Croyle is a good back up QB.
He was set up for failure in KC. I think he can make every throw, he is to fragile and to much like Brett Farve, one drive he looks great, the next drive he throws a dumb interception.
He's not even a good back-up.
The guy is like one of those big hitting driving range champions. Looks sexy because of the long ball arm, but the guy’s overall game sucks.
Matt Cassel was what we need.
Despite the fact that we are all ready to move on at qb, Cassel has been what we needed at the time. From that first first down he made as a chief, he showed so much excitement and heart. He’s always had heart. I respect him loads. He read backup street backup and hung in there. Her loves this team and gives our his all.. Unfortunately, his all just isn’t enough.
by Quinten182 on Nov 16, 2011 8:50 AM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
One of the best sites around for laugh-yourself-to-tears moments.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
It Was A Good Trade
Cassel is a servicable NFL QB. Give him an offensive line and stop this musical chairs routine with the Offensive Coordinator. If the Chiefs could get have gotten and kept a quality coordinator for all three years of the time Cassel has been here, he would be much better. Having him work with this clown Muir is just insane.
Is it a coincidence
that when Haley gets rid of Gailey and takes over the offense the offense and Cassel looked terrible. Then when Muir takes over the offense and keeps the OLine the OLine now looks terrible. I think there is a reason different coaches handle different positions.
Insert witty yet thought provoking phrase here.
I love all these sorts of statements.
Cassel has declined, Cassel has regressed, etc.
No he has not. He looks exactly the same as he has seen he got here (in fact I might argue I have seen slight improvement in his ability to go through his progressions post snap).
The problem was almost everyone was ignoring his faults because the running game was winning games week after week. Sure he threw a bunch of touchdown last year (the vast majority of which were short TD passes set up by the threat of the run.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
by saskwatch on Nov 16, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions 7 recs
I agree, he has had a lot of faults of his own
He did look better last year. Yeah, that was in majority set up by the run game be he still played better than this year or 2009. I think there are a lot of factors that go in to it though so it’s hard to just say he completely sucks. He was able to be a productive QB in NE and here last year. He makes poor choices, throws a bad ball, the coaches have never trusted him, and quite frankly I don’t think he is very good. But he did look better last year.
Insert witty yet thought provoking phrase here.
He doesn't completely suck.
He just doesn’t have all the pieces. And the pieces he does have, he can’t seem to put them all together at the same time.
That inconsistency kills.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
The O line regressed.
We got worse when we lost Brian Waters, The stats on the running game are a lie.
If you look at the stats, we look like we can run the ball, We had some big runs to make the stats look good. Were going into week 10 and we don’t have an identity, our coaches still think were a running team.
It was a good trade and I would do it again
He was coming off a good year, the GM knew him well, we got two solid leaders in the locker room and only gave up a 2nd.
The only thing I would change would be to give Cassel some more stability in the OC and QB Coach positions. That could have made a differnce but who knows. It’s clear he isn’t the QB of the future.
Insert witty yet thought provoking phrase here.
Not addressing the O-Line
to draft for a 3-4 defense and trading the best TE in the game didn’t help Cassel at all.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 16, 2011 9:00 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, there were a lot of things that didn't help him
As both BD and KC scout said above, he wasn’t given the best opportunity here and that is because of choices made by Pioli and Haley and some injuries.
I think one good example is Alex Smith at SF. He went through a new coordinator every year and was terrible. Harbaugh came in this year and he has look good. He still had all the tools he had when drafted but the musical chairs at OC was killing his career. Same could be said for Cassel.
With that though, it’s apparent that he isn’t going to be a QB that can take us to the super bowl. He has happy feet, can’t read defenses well, holds on to the ball forever (waits for receivers to get open rather than throwing it before), and doesn’t throw the most catchable ball. We can win with him in a perfect situation (NE did) but he isn’t a QB that will elevate his team or win a game for you.
Insert witty yet thought provoking phrase here.
I don't think anything short of a TOP 3 QB could take 'this team' (or any team we have had since Cassel came to town) to a Super Bowl.
Cassel is was not, is not, and was never meant to be the Chiefs QBOTF. What Cassel was meant to be, and has been, is a QB that has lead this team the MAJOR rebuild we NEEDED to go through to make a 2-14 at least ‘competitive’ again.
God bless him for every down he has played for us and not matter what happens from this point forward I will ALWAYS be grateful for what he has done to help this team get better week in year out.
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Echoes my thoughts exactly.
I think Matt has had some crummy situations to try to overcome. The best just somehow find a way to overcome them. (OC roulette, no QB coach til this year – coming out of a lockout shortened off season, spotty O Line play, etc, etc).
I feel for the guy. He’s had a series of unfortunate events. But when the rubber hit the road, he hasn’t been able to overcome it and just make it happen. There’s that extra gear that all the great ones have. With more favorable circumstances he maybe (probably?) could have been performing better for us all along.
But I want a great QB, not a potentially-good-if-everything-else-is-running-smoothly-QB. And these three years have probably been enough of a litmus test to show us if he can be that guy. At this point, he’s shown us that he can’t.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Agree
I’m not gonna say that Cassel would be playing better had Weis or maybe instead of Weis, had they signed someone that would still be here this year, I believe would make a difference.
What’s wrong with our offense?? CONSISTENCY..
What have we lacked as far as OC?? CONSISTENCY
Todd is partly to blame for this, but I don’t think he saw Weis leaving that quick. It is really bad luck. I would like to think of the idea of Zorn calling plays next year.. Maybe start this MNF game. He can’t do any worse than Muir and atleast he has an idea of what his qb’s like as far as plays go.
I'd still say we fleeced the Patriots...
There wasn’t going to be a 2nd round QB that we could pick with that pick. There was no way in hell we were going to get anyone worth a damn in the 2nd round. All the ILBers are DJ 2.0 so that doesn’t fill a need. There was NO leadership value on this team going into 2009. This brought in not only a leader on offense that could QB, and a defensive leader(liability). There is no doubt that this 2nd round trade was a reason why we made the playoffs last year(and the reason we lost in the playoffs).
Go Chiefs!!!!
Fleece Job? Wrong Joel.
Do the math Joel. Cassel proved with a good Offensive coordinator (once with Pats, once with Chiefs), he can be an above average QB. They loved him in New England because they knew how to develop an offensive scheme designed to beat many different kinds of defenses. And Cassel executed amazingly well. First, let’s get this straight. Haley IS calling the plays. Do some investigative work and you can verify it. And the plays he is calling do not allow adjustment based on what our QB sees. Oh wait, it must be easier to just slam the QB rather than do deep research on what is going on in that lockeroom. After all, the minions love it that way, don’t they?
You can count Cassel out all you want. You only control the sentiment of the countless droans on this site who live in a world of negativity without knowing all the facts. You don’t control what Pioli knows. And that is that Cassel is smart, a leader, DOES have the arm, and can be a pro-bowler with an effective offensive coordinator.
Enjoy the next few weeks with the likes of HIV 2 Elway and others. Because YOU and your croanies are about to truly understand what a FLEECING is! Enjoy!
by SullyWA2 on Nov 16, 2011 8:57 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
ITS A CONSPIRACY!
Get real. The dude has been given every chance to succeed and he continues to piss down his leg. His run is up, baring injury he’ll never start another game in the NFL. I’m sure he’ll sign on with another team once he’s cut and they’ll place him where he belongs, on the bench.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Wrong
HIV 2 Elway, get back to flipping your burgers brother. He will be back to torture you. And when he does, with a new head coach and OC, you will have a decision to make. Get back to work and quit spending all day posting…or dedicate 2 extra hours a day to you emotional and mindless comments.
Look at your name….HIV 2 Elway. Who in the hell would ever take you seriously?
You know a player is making a good point when he can only resort to......
get back to flipping your burgers brother.
dedicate 2 extra hours a day to you emotional and mindless comments
Look at your name….HIV 2 Elway. Who in the hell would ever take you seriously
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Aww
HIV Boy, you are negative. You use cuss words in your posts. And you dis anybody who doesn’t agree with you. I am sure I am not the only one who is sick of seeing you hijack this site.
by SullyWA2 on Nov 16, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
we have the cuss word police out...
hide yo wives, hide yo kids…
First of all, you throwin' too many big words at me, and because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect...
by SFLChief on Nov 16, 2011 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hide yo Husbands
they raping everyone out here
"You guys line up alphabetically by height."
--Bill Peterson
by Big_Chief on Nov 16, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This got rec'd?
Sully – you’re just going to have to get used to it… and apparently you haven’t been around here very long.
HIV is like the obscene uncle at your Holiday party… you don’t want your kids to hear what is coming out of his mouth but it’s usually pretty entertaining, and not entirely without merit.
Meanwhile you’ve come in here guns blazing for all of 2 months with your “you have no idea what’s going on”, and “Mike Vrabel told me this so I know and you don’t” and a fair amount of personal bashing. Keep it up and it won’t be long before folks are “greening” a post that’s reflecting negatively on you… or worse you’ll get relegated to “troll” status and people will simply ignore you. If you want your opinion to be taken seriously then you should consider pumping the brakes a little.
HIV is a veteran and fixture to this site and has been for the better part of 4 years – he’s not going anywhere anytime soon. Yes he can be negative and yes his comments can be abrasive, but I wouldn’t consider what he does “Hijacking the site”. You either learn how to handle it/him or ignore it. Getting in petty squabbles about his comments won’t get you very far.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions 7 recs
But there always must be one "Superfan"
Lose a Craig, gain a Sully.
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
Did we lose Craig? wtf?
Have I been under a rock or something? Where was his “farewell, piss off! I’m outta heaah!” post?
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
I'm wondering this as well!
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 16, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
I can only assume, haven't seen a "Good fan vs. Bad fan" post of his in a minute..
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
Not CiC. More of craig2011 or whichever variant of that, if I'm misremembering.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Danke
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
We need a list
Of all of the “Craigs” on this site…
Craig2011?
craig in calgary
craig not in calgary
I know there’s more out there…. SHOW YOURSELVES!
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
KaloPhoenix and averagegatsby as well.
Yep that's right. Our starting QB wears a hairband.
by craig in calgary on Nov 16, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
yeah, I knew we lost Kalo - I miss the KPM report
didn’t realize gatsby hit the ole dusty trail, but that makes sense, I haven’t seen him in a while.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
Never tell craig in calgary to show himself
That usually results in a lot of offended people and another trip to jail with some community service.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
by TRSChief on Nov 16, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Now we’re blaming the head coach. Everyone’s made an appearance on the Cassel blame-wagon. Well, everyone except the man himself.
"Hater" is a term used by weak-minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
No clue
So I guess you know more than Waters, Gailey, Vrabel, Weis and others. Because they all had no respect for Haley. You, on the other hand, have no clue what goes on in the locker room. And YES, I do. (So save the response) Haley creates a cancerous environment that creates little trust. You are seeing a result of that.
You, on the other hand, have no clue what goes on in the locker room.
Neither do you, yet you drop bullshit like….
Haley creates a cancerous environment that creates little trust
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
You must have missed this part:
And YES, I do. (So save the response)
"Hater" is a term used by weak-minded people in the face of legitimate criticism.
Ah, missed that
We’re blessed to have someone with such intimate knowledge of the team’s interworkings. I’m now convinced, its everyone’s fault except the Qb’s that this team is struggling.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
We can only talk about the Offense, when we talk about Cassel.
On defense I think most of us agree the problem is the D line, depth and Berry being hurt.
On Offense, I blame the play calling first, and production of the slot receiver. Most tall receivers take an extra step getting started, that is why most teams have a shorter player playing slot. I would like to have
Breaston in the slot and Baldwin and Bowe on the edges. It seems were working on getting Dexter the ball when the QB is getting blitzed.
Once we become predictable and off schedule the defense has an advantage over the offense, O line and the QB. Most of the time we are off shcedule.
For the record I’m saying if the offense wants to be successful, we have to establish the passing game first using the slot and than you can makes throws to Dexter, Bowe, and Baldwin. I think were wrong to try to establish the run to set up the pass.
your comments make it seems like it’s nobody elses fault but the QB.
You were supposed to save it
Yet you blatantly neglect and willfully ignore these orders. For shame!
HIV to HIV 2
Wow, somebody knows more than you about the Chiefs? Must be killing you. Well its hard to get access to anybody when you are…you. Does your job resume say:
“My AP Friends call me HIV 2 Elway. Can I get a job?”
You will spend your life throwing food at the TV and dog while others find ways to create relationships that give them access to real info. Okay, Time to round up your croanies and start some more Cassel bashing.
I will get back to work now. The 1% needs to work so we can have something for you to do when you aren’t posting. OCCUPY, OCCUPY!
by SullyWA2 on Nov 16, 2011 9:40 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
REC'ED
Best, most nonsensical, personal attack I’ve seen on this site.
I love the jump from I know nothing about the Chiefs to needing a job to occupying Wall Street. In the future you might want to throw in a wife beating or, my personal favorite, paint huffing jab. Or maybe just get down to it and call me a Raiders fan, that’s classic.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Keep the personal attacks out
This is for how good the Chiefs are or aren’t not somebodies Career path or choice or even their choices in life… using attacks like that make you seem immature… second, Vrable was worth the 2nd rounder just to show our young LB’s how it’s done… Haley came in and conditioned the team… Pioli is in charge and when your buddy buddy with the GM you’re going to start, doesn’t even matter that you’re a 7th rounder, pioli knew he would never start over Brady so he brought him here, did it work out?? many say yes and many say no… i don’t think Cassel would of been any better than Croyle… but i think it comes down to Talent evaluation, and sometimes we have it and sometimes we don’t, but most of the great Chiefs players we didn’t draft, we traded for them or picked them up off FA wire…
Now that's entertainment.
Entirely unintentional entertainment, but I’ll take it.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
No wonder the Chiefs suck when fornt office personnel like yourself are posting on AP instead of trying to improve the team.
The views expressed by craig in calgary do not necessarily represent the views of all Canadians.
by saskwatch on Nov 16, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Whoah, who is this SulllyWA2 dude? S/he’s all over the place….keep ’em coming!
6 1st round draft picks, 2 Super Bowl Champions and counting
by Another Successful Tedford QB on Nov 16, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
Sadly I agree
Cassel isn’t horrible, he just isn’t our future. But (and please prove me wrong) I don’t believe Palko is going to do anything close to better. It’s our team as a whole and the playcalling and the leadership. Even sticking Andrew Luck with this current bunch will only slightly improve things.. no ground game (other than Battle’s rare breakthrough performances) has really hurt the offense. No consistent tight end is much bigger in the grand scheme as well.
No trust in Cassel
Cassel has no trust in doing what he wants cause he isn’t the QB Haley wants/wanted… it’s what Pioli wanted… if he got Cassel here, he was going to start, in the chain of dog eat dog GM overrides the HC, only problem GM doesn’t coach the team the HC does… that is where i believe the friction between HC and GM rumors are coming from and i don’t think it’s a rumor… as for cassel, yeah he may go to a West Coast system where they throw short passes, hell trade him to Seattle for a 2nd rounder… but KC needs a QB that can spread and see the field and cassel can’t do that…
Cassel does suck
i wouldn’t even put Cassel in the boat as Trent Green… actually Cassel reminds me alot of Trent Green, main QB gets hurt comes in dominates are year and then for the rest of his career he’s so-so… (still didn’t win a playoff game with Green) if we didn’t make it with Green what the hell makes you think we can make it work with Cassel…
please point us in the right direction to do this "hard research".
Cassel has had the deck stacked against him, and the OC sitch has been terrible, but you can’t say that his play isn’t at least partially to blame.
D-Bowe says: "THAT'S MY BIKE, PUNK!!!!"
by reedeasy on Nov 16, 2011 9:32 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
What are "croanies"?
Is it a combination of “crazy” and “moan”? If so, sounds like Joel has some bedroom magic goin on…
Way to go, Joel!
Let's work really hard today on understanding what we read.
The “fleece job” Joel referenced, was that sentiment of all the Patriots fans feeling like they got fleeced by only getting a 2nd round pick at the time for Vrabel and Cassel.
Not that the Chiefs got fleeced.
So way to get riled up and attack Thorman over your inability to understand the words written down. Then go to on and gripe about (sic) cronies and (sic) drones – I don’t know anyone here whose opinion is controlled by Joel or Chris. Most of the time when they post anything resembling op-ed, there’s no shortage of AP’ers willing to argue (whether they have a valid point or facts to back it up or not).
Good talk, Russ.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
by TRSChief on Nov 16, 2011 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Don't let your mother catch you with that beer on your breath.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
by TRSChief on Nov 16, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Clark spotting, rec'd!
“I found out looooong ago………It’s a long way down the holidaaaaaaaaay road…”
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
You can't reason with people who are not reasonable.
The people who hate Cassel are haters. Look at Steve Young when he was with Tampa Bay, it would be easy to say because he didn’t do good to call him a chump. The QB is only as good as their supporting cast, ask Archie Manning!
We all agree the O line and the play calling is bad. The WR have dropped balls to get us off schedule. The only consistent player has been Jon Asamoah, and even though Breaston had a bad game against Denver he has been solid.If most of the players and all the coaches have not been consistent, how do you expect to have consistent QB play?
It’s about rhythm and timing for a QB , I think WR need to be on schedule to get in a rhythm too.
Look at Rivers this year, his timing is off and he is not accurate, I still think he is a good QB.
When things go bad for the team, haters are going to want player cut and coaches fired to fix the problem. They don’t know how to judge talent. My concerns, Haley wants to build a Parcel team like the Giants. I want to build a team like Vermeil’s team, that could run and pass.
I want to build a complete TEAM.
Good at everything and great at one or two. I would be fine if everyone from CB to QB were no name ‘roll-players’…one goes down, the next man steps up with very little to no drop off in ‘team’ performance. (See Steelers, Packers, Pats, etc). Lose you QB, no problem… next man up and the team still wins consistantly (see Brady 2008, Big Ben last year).
The down side is our players would be viewed as ‘system’ players, and if we trade them to other team they likely wouldn’t perform as well (who does this sound like?). I can live with this sort of down side.
good trade at the time
Still a good trade
by stagdsp on Nov 16, 2011 8:58 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Cassel proved he can play with an outstanding running game
we didn’t have a good running game in 2009, Cassel sucked… had a brilliant running game in 2010, cassel rocked… Running game sucks in 2011, Cassel sucks… Cassel’s talent is equal to the talent at RB… that’s not a good QB… that’s not a Tom Brady, or Peyton Manning… that’s a Brodie Croyle, which is who we replaced him for…
no
last year Vrable was washed up.
2 years for a second rounder? i would not trade a second rounder for him.
2 years for a leader LB
DJ was coming off his worse year ever, we needed a voice in the LB core to teach the LB’s like DJ how to be a leader, since Vrable came DJ grew into a beast…. just for the improvement he brought with him is good enough for a second rounder…
I thought Vrable was solid.
I think the reason the defense was good last year was because of him and Berry.
Vrable was smart and knew what the offense was going to do. We don’t have that kind of leader this year to tell the defense in the huddle what to watch out for.
Yeah the only real knock on Vrabel was he had lost all ability to pass rush, which we still ned from that position.
But he sealed the edge and strung out running plays very nicely. Sniffed out screens really well too. That’s something we haven’t gotten much out of Studie or Houston yet this year.
Studie was having a real hard time trying to seal the edge vs Denver this past week, and it kept killing us. Turning 2-3 yard gains into 4-7 yards up the sideline.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Looking back on the 2009 Draft...
There as no QB to take around that 2nd rounder. Couple decent players but the Chiefs needed a QB, so it was a good trade
Why draft a QB that year?? was there no O-line or D-line??
the point i’m trying to say i guess is that what would be the difference between Croyle these past 3 years and Cassel?? but obviously he was just a bonus in the Vrable deal cause Vrable was worth the 2nd rounder for sure… but why when in 2009 did Croyle see the crossing route for chambers for the game winning Field goal (against the Steelers) and Cassel didn’t?? Cassel’s 1 good year was a product of the Head coach, Pioli doesn’t coach this team… what went wrong is that Pioli should of let Haley get the QB he wants…
and look pathetic against Baltimore
Cassel blew in that playoff game… yeah great get my hopes up and go to the Playoffs only to show how you really play and don’t even look away from 1 WR to see that you main WR bowe is wide open… yeah bad arguement for cassel there
I would like to see another trade.
If manning heals from the injury, we could trade for him and be a super bowl contender. Let stanzi learn from one of the best and take over when he is done. Even if it takes a first round puck I think it will make us great for years to come.
by ImissMontana on Nov 16, 2011 9:30 AM CST via iPhone app reply actions
not necessarily
His olines in Indy have been much worse. The possibility of an upgrade still exists also.
by ImissMontana on Nov 16, 2011 11:25 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I wish Cassel would have ended up in Denver
…He may have been just good enough to keep McD with the team, but not good enough to take them to the next level.
It was a great trade for KC
It was so good there were a lot of complaints around the league that it was rigged that Belichick was helping Pioli and not even listening to other offers.
The Broncos under McDaniels at the time wanted Cassel badly, and claimed that they were ready to offer the first pick in the draft or Cutler to New England for Cassel, but either offered too late or New England turned them down, or never took their calls, etc.
At the time I said we should have taken advantage of that, and flipped Cassel to Denver for their first round pick— then the trade would have been our second round pick for Vrabel and Denver’s first, the #12 pick in the draft.
If Denver wouldn’t have parted with the first pick to a division rival, then we could have even swapped Cassel for Cutler even-up (this was when Cutler had demanded a trade from Denver, and they were determined to move him) then flipped Cutler to the Bears for the same deal that Denver got for him— so then the trade would have been our second rounder for Vrabel and two first rounders. The best trade in the history of the NFL.
Wish we had done that, but even without the extra moves it was a great trade for KC.
by Offense of the 70s on Nov 16, 2011 9:41 AM CST reply actions
I would rather have a healthy Eric Berry.
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
Two different players.
Chung is a SS. Berry is a FS.
by Revenge of the Fallen on Nov 16, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
Berry is what ever he wants to be.
With that said, I would rather have Eric Berry or Kendrick Lewis of Chung.
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Berry's actually a SS, Lewis is FS.
"Why are all these people here? There are too many people on this earth. We need a new plague…"
-Dwight Schrute
Did the sarcasm font not work for you.
Lewis stats so far for 2011: 34 tackles, 3 intrecetions (one a pick-six), 6 passes defended.
That is lights out safety play. There is not one team that Lewis would NOT start for…NOT ONE.
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
Eh, he's doing alright at safety. Not lights out.
You’re not including missed tackles in there. Some of those have given up big gains that absolutely killed defensive momentum. He’s a great find for a late round pick. But he’s still far from lights out, and still needs to improve on some pretty basic football skills like tackling.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
If being a top 10 safety is 'doing alright' then ya.
Anyone who considers a top 10 safety lights out, then yes Lewis is indeed playing lights out (and my top 10 I mean ALL safety’s both SS and FS)
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
Sources?
If you’re going by ratings that view only positive stats and don’t look at the whole picture – incomplete metrics – sure. Just like Cassel was a top 3 QB last year because of his TD : INT ratio.
I’m definitely interested to see some links showing Lewis being rated as top 10 with DVOA or better metrics.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
I submit that there is a grand total of 3 Safety's who have more interceptions then Lewis at this point in the season (including both SS or FS positions).
None of those 3 has yet to return any for touchdowns like Lewis. That stat alone makes him at LEAST top 10 IMO (if not top 5).
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
The missed tackles costing big yards and keeping drives alive for the opponent, don't.
So your “top 10 safety” is an entirely “IMO” instance, and not an actual rating?
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Who is YOUR top 10 safety's?
Mine would be (in no particular order)…
1) Eric Weddle
2) George Wilson
3) Charlie Peprah
4) Kam Chancellor
5) Morgan Burnett
6) Amari Spievey
7) Jairus Byrd
8) Bryan Scott
9) Sherrod Martin
10) Kendrick Lewis
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
If Cassel is the QB
Weddle is number frickin ONE.
by Ochophosphate on Nov 16, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
I was wrong about one thing....
Charlie Peprah has 1 more interception then Lewis, and he ALSO returned one of them to the house. Please forgive me for this oversight.
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions
Those are team DVOA's, and not individual players.
Was trying to find an individual defensive player DVOA for this year, then work happened. Will dig if I can get time.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Oh
From what I saw last year, he was the deepest S making plays and I assumed he was a FS.
In that case, I’ll take Berry all day long.
by Revenge of the Fallen on Nov 16, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Yup, Chung is tight
Would also like my Unger
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Nov 16, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
Mack Truck > Unger
6 1st round draft picks, 2 Super Bowl Champions and counting
by Another Successful Tedford QB on Nov 16, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
I was never a big fan of the deal
but for the price it didnt seem like it would hurt this bad this long!
KC 2011-12 AFC/Super Bowl Champs
There was nothing wrong with the trade
We got a potential starting QB and a couple years of LB leadership for an ok draft pick. It obviously didn’t work out, but trades are kinda like playing poker. Sometimes you can make the right move and still lose.
The real question is why didn’t we do anything to hedge that bet? 2 years went by and we never added a developmetal QB. Instead, we kept Brokie and wasted time with the Palkos and Gutierrezes of this world.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Ricky Stanzi would like to have a word with you.
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
I have no problem with Stanzi
I loved the pick. Still do. But, we went 2 years without getting a developmental guy. It’s not like we didn’t have roster space for one….
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
With all the holes on this team...
…it would been STUPID to waste a high draft picks on a backup – developmental anything.
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
STUPID is going almost 30 years without drafting one
But have fun holding out hope that we’re going to game manager our way to glory.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KC_Satchmo on Nov 16, 2011 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Well, they did draft Todd Blackledge.
So, you are right, we have gone almost 30 years without drafting one and will give you a rec just for that.
However, nothing short of a Top 3 QB could have taken this team (or any team we have had since the Herm Edwards days) to the Super Bowl.
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
This may well be true
But lets say we did find a franchise QB by drafting and developing one. We’d be in much much better shape for the future. Until you have that guy….finding him should always be your #1 priority.
We have steadfastly refused to even make an effort to do that for far too long. As an organization, we don’t spend 1st round picks on a QB because Blackledge was a bust. We don’t spend 2nd round picks on a QB because Blundin was a blunder. I suppose we’ve now added 3rd round to the list because Brokie sucked. It’s madness. MADNESS I SAY!!
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
We did spend a 2nd round pick on a QB....Cassel (well we did get a LB with the same pick...so maybe that doesn't count).
But Cassel is another retread IMO and not someone we drafted. That said I think that Stanzi will be the best QB outside of Luck to be drafted in ANY draft since Pioli has come to town, and If I am right….is the fact that he was only a 5th round draft pick a BAD thing?
by DivineGrace on Nov 16, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
Not at all
I was saying long before the draft that I thought Stanzi was the best of the bunch. Loved the pick. Have no beef with it at all. Just wishing we had taken a similar chance sooner.
Buying a 2nd lottery ticket doubles your chances of winning.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
I get it, but with all the holes we have I am fine with going forward with MC, TP, and Stanzi.
Once we KNOW the O-Line is set, THEN I would feel better about ‘double-dipping’ on drafted QBs.
Point taken
but still, if a guy like Russell Wilson is available after the 3rd round (which some think might happen) we would be stupid to not take a stab at him. IMO, he has Rodgers-like tools. Will he BE Rodgers, doubtful, but only time will tell.
Also, if Weeden is available in the third (also a bizarre choice here on AP a day or two back), why not look at him? In the 3rd, his age doesn’t even concern me anymore.
Didn't Pioli say he was going to try to take a developmental QB in the draft every chance he gets?
If he did, there is a really good chance you might get what you are looking for.
I liked getting Cassel for a 2nd round pick, I think the Stanzi pick in the 5th is going to be the biggest ‘steal’ in the draft since Brady, I aso think Pioli is not done adding depth/compittion in the QB position.
Would be ironic
if Weeden came to KC…again. Couldn’t make it in the blue, so he strolls across the parking lot to toss on the red.
The guy can sling it.
If Pioli agrees and he has the opportunity...it just might happen.
I really do trust that Pioli will continue to do what is best for this team. While I have (and still) question some of his choices, even in hind sight i’ts hard for me to see any CLEAR choice he has made (or did NOT make) that was completely ‘dropping the ball’.
by DivineGrace on Nov 18, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
Eh, there were so many holes to fill - you had to pin hopes on Cassel at least being able to hold down the fort
While you address the myriad of other needs. He turned out to be serviceable but not good. We at least got to make the playoffs in the process, but the search has to continue for our franchise guy.
Strategically it’s not a bad move. Calculated risk based on other areas of need.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
So we shouldn't try to draft a franchise QB until every other hole on the team is filled?
Backwards my friend. Backwards.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KC_Satchmo on Nov 16, 2011 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No. It's making a trade for a QB that everyone and their mom was trying to get.
And hoping he’s at least good if not elite, so you can fill in some gaps for a year or two without trying to also draft high for a QB.
What sense would it have made to trade for Cassel, which at the time was considered a great move, and then immediately turn around and draft a high QB? Would you have been okay with that at the time?
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Estatic
Until you actually have an elite QB on your roster, you should be willing to find one to develop. Filling all the other holes does you no good if you don’t have a high end QB. If being a Chiefs fan has taught you nothing else, it should have taugh you that. ;)
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Heh, I feel your pain.
But can you in all honest sit here and tell me that knowing only what we knew between the 2008 and 2009 seasons, that if we just spent a 2nd round draft pick on a QB that just went 11-5 in his first season starting, had a couple of 400+ yard games, and honestly looked pretty good doing it – that you’d be perfectly happy also spending a high draft pick immediately after on another QB?
Or would you have been screaming about how stupid it is to spend a 2nd on what looked like a proven QB and another high draft pick on a rookie when there were TONS of needs in starting positions on the roster?
Even after Cassel has his 27:7 TD:INT pro bowl alternate season, they still drafted Stanzi to develop, and stated they plan on drafting QB’s yearly if they can.
There were just so many roster holes to fill, you had to skip a season and hope the guy you just spent a pick on can get it done in the meantime. Strategically it just makes sense.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
Yes, I can honestly say that
I was saying during that 27:7 season that it was a mirage. He was (and is) an average at best QB. He was (and is) a game manager.
I’ve seen the game manager movie. I know how it ends.
Keep in mind, you’re talking to the guy who was screaming for us to sign FA Drew Brees when we still had pre-head trauma Trent Green as our QB.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
I wanted Brees too
Half because I thought he could be good. And half because I wanted him to come here, do good, and really shove it up SD’s ass. Because that’s always a great situation.
I’ll agree to disagree then, when I think the QB position is in capable (at the very least) hands, I’m okay with skipping out on drafting a QB for a year when there are so many positions in need of an upgrade. Doubly especially since that first draft was one where it was known we were switching defensive schemes and needed personnel to compliment that as well.
I have a lot of respect for your opinions. But some of it sounds like eagle eye hindsight, at least to a degree.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
I'm not trying to claim I know WHO the QB we drafted should have been
But if you think I’m eagle eyeing my desire to draft one, you couldn’t be more wrong.
I’m cool with agreeing to differ tho. Very good talk. ;)
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Always enjoy a good even headed discussion.
Tons of what-ifs, and I have to admit that coming into this team after the 2008 season as a GM wouldn’t be an enviable task.
I just hope that we have what we need in Stanzi or can draft what we need in a plug-n-play ready QB.
I still like Cassel. I think he’s worked his ass off and seems like a good guy. But he’s just too inconsistent to help the team get any better. After 2 1/2 seasons of him starting here, I think we’ve seen his ceiling, which was last year.
And at the end of the day, all of us Chiefs fans just want the same thing. The freakin’ Lombardi trophy in KC, dammit!
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
You shut YOUR facehole
you cotton-headed ninny-muggins!
by SCKSChief on Nov 16, 2011 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
rec'd for ninny-muggins
No idea wtf that is, but I feel like I should feel like I just got owned.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
If adversity breaks the kid
he wasn’t the guy to begin with.
It’s not like the Mannings and Aikmans of this world got drafted into perfect situations.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Eh, Aikman had a pretty amazing team around him.
Manning is a once in a generation QB that has carried an otherwise bad team, though for sure.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
When Aikman was drafted, that team was horrible
And they were horrible his first year at QB. He got brutalized for his first 2 years. The point is that if a QB has greatness in him, the situation shouldn’t break him.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
Manning and Aikman would have 0 Superbowl wins after 2.5 season on this team or Carr's
Manning NEVER got sacked more then 29 times….poor David Carr was sacked 76 times in just his first season. Peyton Manning hasn’t been 79 times in the last 5 SEASONS….Manning would not have lasted 3 years on that team.
Or
Manning would not have allowed himself to be sacked 76 times. I’m not defending that OL, I’m attacking Carr’s mental tougness. It’s not like he got his arm ripped out of it’s socket and couldn’t throw again. He allowed adversity to be an excuse for his own weakness.
Agree to differ I guess. I have genuinely enjoyed the discussion. ;)
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
It's great food for thought on both sides.
Of course it’s impossible to project either way. But pondering the ‘what if’s" and trying to find facts to support either or both sides makes us better educated fans.
I think Carr got a bad deal, and it would’ve been nice to see him in a more stable situation. But all we can do in retrospect is speculate.
Foxtrot Alpha November - Sierra Hotel Oscar Tango!
What's funny is that the Chiefs definitely got fleeced.
Vrabel was a huge bag of nothing, and Cassel has set us back several years.
All for a second-round pick and 60 million Hunt dollars.
One of the worst trades this franchise has ever made, especially because it made us pick Tyson Jackson instead of a QB.
Vrabel was a leader who helped chance the attitude of a 2-14 team...and that alone was worth a 2nd round pick.
You honestly think that ANY Quaterback we could have taken in 2009 was going to do anythig but get his butt handed to him with all the holes we have on this team.
That is the fliping funny stuff. ROFLMFAO.
He changed our attitude and we got exponentially (n*2*2) better every year he was here...
We had 2 wins…
2 * 2 = 4 (check)
4 * 2 = 8 (we had 10 wins so double check, then add 2 games)
To say it was a massive turnaround would be a colossal understatement, and Vrabel helped on BOTH sides of the ball.
I'd be interested to know your opinion on what, if anything, is the difference between causation and correlation
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Nov 16, 2011 10:02 PM CST up reply actions
This is what I think....
Imagine the sum of everything that was the Chiefs 2010 season, everyone from Clark Hunt to Darryl Harris (Practice squad QB at the time)….can you see it? Now imagine you could remove a player from the equation then ask yourself….would it have prevented the Chiefs from getting to 10-6 and making the playoffs?
I don’t think the removal of Darryl Harris (Practice squad QB) for the season would have made any difference; the Chiefs would still get to 10-6 and make the playoffs. (IMO)
Take away Dwayne Bowe (leaving everything else) for the season (both on and off the field) it would have made a difference; the Chiefs would NOT have made it to 10-6 and they would NOT have gone to the playoffs. (IMO)
Take away Vrabel (leaving everything else) for the season (both on and off the field) it would have made a difference; the Chiefs would NOT have made it to 10-6 and they would NOT have gone to the playoffs. (IMO)
With that said, it was a good time to let Vrabel go. He was to long in the tooth and for him to continue to produce at that same level for an entire new season would have been VERY difficult achieve.
We drafted Houston and while I didn’t think that Huston would produce like Miller has in Denver, I did think he would be more productive in putting pressure on the other teams QB then he has been. Not sure if it is the player, the shortened off season, the coaching, or some combination but if he starts playing to his potential it could make a HUGE difference in the next 5 games and change the fate of who wins the AFC West.
I don't know that Vrabel had nearly that kind of impact
I think he helped, sure, but I really don’t think he made the difference between winning the division and not making the playoffs at all.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Nov 17, 2011 3:56 PM CST up reply actions
I thought it was hilarious that so many people approved of the trade
Absolutely hilarious.
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov
by burntorangehorn on Nov 16, 2011 10:01 PM CST reply actions
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