2 DRAFTS FOR LUCK?NOT AS CRAZY AS IT SOUNDS
When KC was 0-3,many fans were day dreaming about drafting Stanford QB Andrew Luck.What seemed out of reach,was made real by this teams god awful play.However,''suck for Luck'' is now as out of reach as ever with wins against the Colts and Vikes.Our only hope now is that ST.Louis has the number 1 pick,so we can possibly make a trade to move up.That pick however ,is going to cost a fortune.In fact,I could see someone making a Ricky Williams type deal and trade away an entire draft to get him.I will give you 1 better,I would give up 2,yes 2 drafts to move up to get the best QB prospect since John Elway.Before you call me crazy and scroll down to comment on what a moron I am ,just hear me out.
The modern day NFL is a passing league.The days of hitting someone in the mouth and playing smash mouth football,are going the way of the buffalo.To be an elite team you must be able to pass the ball with great efficiency.You have to have a smart,accurate,QB that can make all the throws down field.The QB position is the most important position in sports,no player can make a more immediate impact than a franchise passer.And no position is harder to find.Here are examples of recent turnarounds.
Peyton Manning round 1(1) 1998 3-13. 1999 13-3
Donavan McNabb round 1(2) 1999 5-11. 2000 11-5
Eli Manning round 1(1) 2004 6-10 .2005 11-5
Ben Rothlesburger 1(11) 2004 15-1
Matt Ryan 1(3) 2008 11-5
The only recent example of a team trading an entire draft for 1 player,is the infamous Ricky Williams trade in 1999.Mike Ditka gave away a 1,3,4,5,6,7 in 99 and a 1,3 in 2000.History tells us the Saints got the raw end of that deal,but did they?Williams has over 9700 yards rushing in 12 seasons.But what about what the Redskins? Here is what the draft would have looked like had the Saints not traded,based on the players that were picked by other teams. I even threw in the rest of the 2000 draft.
1.(12) Chicago via Saints/Redskins Cade MCnown QB UCLA .MCnown was 3-12 as a starter.He threw 16tds to 19 ints.A shoulder injury ended his career after he signed with the 49ers in 2000.
3(71) Chicago via Saints/Redskins D'Wayne Bates, WR, Northwestern .Bates had 80 catches for 1061 yards and 6 td's in 5 years in the NFL.Of those 80 rec,50 came in 1 season.
4(107) Washington via Saints LB Nate Stimson, Georgia Tech,never played a down in the league.
5(144) Chicago via Saints/Redskins LB Khari Samuel, Massachussetts ,had 16 tackles,fumble rec,in his 3 years in the league
6(179) Denver via Saints/Redskins TE Desmond Clark, Wake Forest, had 323 rec,3591 yards 27tds in 12 years good value pick.
7(218) Denver via Saints/Redskins TE/WR Billy Miller ,USC, had 200 rec,2248 yards 10 tds in 8 years decent value
Ok,so the 1st leg of the draft trade produced 1 starter , 1 backup and 4 busts. Not that impressive is it?Washington did trade up with Chicago to get Champ Bailey.But we are looking at the actual Saints picks that were taken at there slots.Lets continue into the 2000 draft.
1(2) Washington via Saints LB Lavarr Arrington ,Penn State,Arrington was the best player taken by any team(other than Williams) in this trade.In 7 years,he had 413,tackles,23.5 sacks,3 int's,6 forced fumbles,7 rec,3 pro bowls.However,by his 5th year he started to break down and his career was cut short because of injuries.
2(33) Saints select DE Darren Howard Kansas State.My Saints showed up the Redskins and selected Howard who had 354 tackles,67 sacks,3 int's ,16 forced fumbles,10 rec. Impact player
3(64) Llyod Harrison CB,NC State.Is there any doubt why Chalie Casserly was fired?The Redskins last pick from the Saints ,netted a guy that had 17 tackles 1 sack in 3 years with 3 different teams.
4(96)Saints select Terrelle Smith ,FB,AZ State.Smith played 9 seasons and was a solid FB with the Saints.However,his play tailed off when he left the team in 04.
5(133) Tuten Reyes OT,Miss,journeyman who started 37 games with 6 teams in 9 years(only 4 a year).
6(168) Marc Bulger QB,West Virginia,started off hot and looked like another Tom Brady.However injuries and inconsistent play quickly derailed his promissing career.
7(208)Kansas City via trade Desmond Kitchings WR,Furman,never played a down.
So there you have it,2 drafts net,1 pro bowler,3 solid starters and 1 backup(all out of the league) for a running back that is still playing.But what if the Saints traded those 2 drafts for Donavan Mcnabb?Saints would have had 7 post seasons ,4 NFC championships,and 1 Super Bowl appearance giving up only 4 decent to good players.Is there any reasonable person ,after seeing what those 2 drafts produced that would not have traded them for MCnabb, a franchise QB?
When people hear about giving up 2 drafts ,they assume that you are giving up good 14 players.That is simply not the case .In fact I did research to try to find on average,the good players each team drafts on a yearly basis.And by good,I mean guys going into there 2nd contract.Those players are now veterens ,making millions instead of thousands.You see,it is the economics of the game that drive out as many players as injuries.Boomer Grigsby was fine when this team only had to pay him 6 figures.But when they had to pay him millions,he wasn.t good enough and he left the league healthy and able to play.It is an unfortionate part of the game.So. I took the 05/06 drafts combined.These players if still in the NFL are on there 2nd contract,making them good enough contributers to get another deal.
7th round; 76 picks,19 still in league
6th round;77 picks,24 still in league
5th round;72 picks, 19 still in the league
4th round; 69 picks,34 still in league
3rd round;68 picks 34 still in league
2nd round;64 picks ,44 still in league
1st round;64 picks,54 still in league
All of the players still playing have varying degrees of success,but only 228 remain from the 05/06 drafts.That is less than half of the 510 total players taken.If we do the math, teams walked away with 3.5 impact players after those 2 drafts.That on average is less than 2 a year.That is about what the Eagles would have got,had the Saints made a deal with Philly in 99.So ,in that case how is trading away 2 drafts that much of a risk?It is far more of a risk passing on A franchise QB in a passing league.Every other player is a dime a dozen compared to a difference maker under center.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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wait, what?
if the Saints traded those 2 drafts for Donavan Mcnabb?Saints would have had 7 post seasons ,4 NFC championships,and 1 Super Bowl appearance
C’mon seriously? Are you drunk? You always make these leaps of illogic. So, McNabb was the only guy on the field to produce these results? The rest of the Eagles did nothing? So, by your logic, McNabb simply would have transplanted those results to any other team in the league that took him? WOW.
CHIEFS DYNASTY – we’re kind of a big deal
by kabrink on Oct 18, 2011 12:17 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Oh and by the way,Saints had Joe Horn and if you remember he was pretty good
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Slowly K...step away from the....
;-)
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...
by WorL4Chiefs on Oct 18, 2011 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions
If people would take time to actually look at these drafts
You really wouldn’t have to give up that much in all likely hood.People are terrified of the thought of this and I just don’t get it.Look at the evidence.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions
not all drafts are alike, not all GMs choosing talent are equal
and as kabrink said, you ASSUME … first you ASSUME that your mancrush will be the best QB ever ever ever, secondly you ASSUME that two drafts will be terrible (in essence making it a “risk free” choice)
if, however, you look at two good drafts … let’s say Chiefs 2008 and 2010 … you see a lot more than your average number of players as being impact players, that means your mancrush just got MUCH more expensive, and if he just happens to get to the NFL and be “average” then it ends up being the stupidest idea ever
btw, a gentleman that I work around (football coach at a school I substitute at often) happens to be getting ready to start his rehab for a hip injury … he’s hoping to get back into shape for next year with the Sask Roughriders of the CFL (yeah, he’s professional player) and has tried out for some NFL teams (including the Chiefs) … and HE’S not impressed with Andrew Luck … again, a PROFESSIONAL who KNOWS THE GAME is NOT IMPRESSED with Andrew Luck
his name is Nathan Beechely … look him up on Facebook … Montbello HS in Denver and call him for all I care … but there it is, and I’ll take HIS word that Luck is overrated
byeeeeeeeee
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
While I'm not game on trading entire drafts
You are agreeing with a canadian football players opinion of Luck, which is in complete confliction with every professional scout doing it right now? Come on, ups, we know you don’t want to trade draft picks to jump up to #1, but now you are reaching to downplay the talent of Luck.
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Oct 18, 2011 7:00 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
ya my neighbor in pee wee football doesn't like him either,
So I guess he’s no good after all.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions
but you DO like him, and can't understand why everyone isn't head over heals in agreement with you
The knife cuts both ways.
Personally, I’d take put more stock in the opnion of a QB (CFL or otherwise) than I would in a fan.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
This guy who ever he is.
Disagrees with every,scout ,GM,talking head that I have heard to date.Maybe this dude is a scouting genius,but I wouldn’t count on it.It isn’t just me he disagrees with,it’s the whole football community.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't see "the whole football community" saying a damn thing about...
…trading away 2 years worth of draft picks for Andrew Luck.
I don’t even see them suggesting trading away 1 years worth.
My best guess is that Luck will either go #1 overall, or the pick will get traded for a couple 1’s and a couple 2’s or a couple 1’s and a couple players and a couple 3’s…. The pick might even draw in three 1’s and a couple 2’s if a team is desperate enough. But anyone that gives away 2 years worth of complete drafts for 1 players without a proven record of success is a complete moron..and they will be hurting their team.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions
There is a reason he is in the CFL,sounds like there are 2
Not impressed
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Ok, I'm gonna take your perspective for a sec, but with a different angle to make a point
I have professional experience in negotiation – 7 years as a rate negotiator who broke company records by making over $1 million a year in profits on my negotiated margins (no, I wasn’t fired, I took a different/better job to move back to KC). I’ll look at this from the perspective of the GM who wants to trade for Luck (or a draft choice as close in quality to him as possible).
As GM, I want to get the best guys possible (draft and FA) with the bargaining chips that I have. Trading up to the #1 spot in the draft doesn’t require that I give away everything I have for this draft or for the next two drafts. I’ll drive as hard a bargain as I can, which might include two or three prime picks and maybe even a conditional pick or two; maybe a tradable player in an area where my team has depth, but never should I be willing to trade my entire “bag of chips” for one player (proven or not). I’ll need some left to make other deals to keep building and improving my team. If I don’t have any left, I’m stuck over a barrel in the next deal I want to make, plus I have nothing left if the next great prospect at a position I need to fill is there and I’m out of picks.
As we’ve seen this week, the timing of the negotiation is highly important too, as if one waits too long they’ll be over a barrel and have no bargaining room – aka Raiders settling for Boller as a 2nd and then being in a position where that wasn’t enough but they’re forced to give up what little they have left. Pretty much screwed for the next couple of years now as far as the draft.
So, in essence, if I want Luck or even one of the guys projected to go in the top 10, I should never have to trade all my picks for a given year and especially not for 2 years to get there. From a business standpoint, it’s like paying $3 million for a newly developed prototype that’s really worth $1 million right now just to get it before someone else does. Not a good value.
That’s why no GM worth his salt would EVER trade all his picks for the next draft, let alone 2 drafts for a single player. It would eliminate any bargaining power they might have for the next area of need for too long a time.
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...
So did you work on behaff of the employer,individual,investor?
I am assuming based on your profit margin ,it was the employee.If that is the case,then you understand the power of leverage.Lets say I am a radio personality with a lot of listeners. I come to you and want 20%over my last contract.The 1st thing you would do ,is look at my ratings,work history,sponsers etc and see how much profit I bring to the company.It is how much I can benefit my employer that determines my salary. And that is what you would use as a negotiating tool
So ,if that is the case the QB position is worth the most on a team.He is going to cost more than a center or a safety,as it is the most important position on the team.And Andrew Luck is the most universally praised QB since Elway in a passing league.He has a lot leverage trust me.
There is going to be a bidding war the likes we have never seen.As his (faux) agent, I have outlined numerous times what a QB means to the team.I have also outlined the uncertainty of the draft (between 05/06 teams only walked away with 3.5 good players a team) I am feeling pretty good about my presentation so far.If drafts pick are currency (and they are)then he should command a lot of them.
Maybe a better analogy is real estate.If I own 3 duplexes and a small rental house,I turn a nice safe profit.However,it is not nearly as much as if I owned an apt complex.But apt complexis are riskier and cost a lot more to maintain.They can also be very hard to fill.But if you find 1 you can maintain then you get it ,as you can make so much more money than with your other rentals combined.So ,I sell my sure profit other properties,for a not quite as sure, but more profitable apt complex.I do this because the potential profit margin is just to great.Are there risks involved,absolutly.?But if I do my home work/research ,then I can minimize my risk and get a huge reward for years to come.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions
While some positions are better than others, negotiating is negotiating, regardless the position
I was part of a brokerage company that negotiated rates between companies with products to ship and transportation companies to provide the shipping. I had to get the highest competitive rates possible from the shippers and then find the sweet spot of the transportation firms to get the lowest rates from them – i.e. where do they want to go.
So, using the radio personality analogy, I would also research your competition in similar programming and markets to determine comparative results – essentially, how much better are you than your competition? Most importantly, I’d research the station for which you work and wish to obtain a better contract. Before entering any negotiation, some of the most important things to know are the needs, weaknesses and fiduciary position of your opponent. If the financial position of the station is shaky, your value to them is negligible, regardless your history.
Taking that principle into football, the position of the team with whom you’re negotiating to trade up is a very important factor – you have to know what their needs are to know what value to offer them that you can also live with. THAT is the most important leverage to have going into any negotiation – knowing your opponent.
While I understand your opinion that the QB position is the most important, the percentage of importance is subjective, as many might rate the WR position nearly as high depending upon the offensive system they run and their historical experience. Many may believe that an average to good QB will get them to the SB with solid well-balanced teams and great WR’s – it doesn’t matter if you believe it, the point is to know if your opponent believes that or could believe it (the list below would tend to bear that out). As noted in the above analogy, the needs and weaknesses of the team who holds the #1 pick are essential factors to know. Does your opponent value the QB position in the same percentages as you do? Do they have glaring weaknesses at other positions where they can be tempted with the right bargaining chip? Much more goes into getting the best value possible while keeping as much as you can. I certainly wouldn’t go into a negotiation if my opponent knew I was salivating for one specific target – it’s a no win situation, so I’d have to aim then for my next most desired target. In fact, I’d probably reference at least the top 5-7 as desirable if that came up as a topic. Again, if it’s my position that Luck is my guy period, I’m going to obscure that as much as possible so I can get him for the best deal – not just toss everything I have on the table and drool or beg.
Avg to Good (not great, not elite, not HOF’ers or likely to be) QB’s that took their teams to a SB:
Daryle Lamonica (debatable on great; awesome winning % but struggled with zone defenses and accuracy); Earl Morrall; Joe Kapp; Craig Morton; Billy Kilmer; Ken Stabler (more INTs than TD’s in his career is not great); Vince Ferragamo; Ron Jaworski; Ken Anderson; David Woodley; Joe Theismann; Jim McMahon; Tony Eason; Phil Simms; Doug Williams; Boomer Esiason; Jeff Hostetler; Mark Rypien; Stan Humpries; Neil O’Donnell; Drew Bledsoe; Chris Chandler; Steve McNair; Trent Dilfer; Kerry Collins; Brad Johnson; Jake Delhomme; Matt Hasselbeck; Rex Grossman.
So rather than 6 non-elite QB’s in the SB, not counting Lamonica since it’s debatable, we find there have actually been at least 28 average to good QB’s out of 52 total that have started in 43 Super Bowls. (18 up to 1995; 10 since 1995; take into account how many repeat performances have occurred during that period.)
That’s 54% of all QB’s who’ve taken their teams to the SB – not the 6 that you’ve previously stated. Let’s stay away from the "passing league" argument, as many of the SB QB’s over the years were fairly prolific passers and it’s easier to pass today with the protection afforded by the rules, so it was harder to make it in years past rather than easier.
As fans, we want what we want. We have to remember though, that football is a business and the GM’s job is to get the best deals he can with an eye to the company’s bottom line. Regardless the business, if a bidding war starts, then he’d best have a 2nd and 3rd best option in mind or he’ll get screwed. Any good negotiating executive won’t allow himself to get caught in a bidding war and give away every bargaining chip he has. There are two options to get players for a team – the draft and free agency. Historically, the best teams have used both to build a solid team – not just one or the other. If I have 2 options to use to do my job and one is a valuable bargaining tool in negotiations, I’m not going to eliminate that one for extended periods of time just to get a single player, regardless how highly he’s viewed. The potential downside is too great from the company perspective. The Ricky Williams example is a good one, as that trade was more harmful than helpful to the Saints as they never got the value from him on the field that Ditka estimated. There are many experts in the business who’ve stated as much.
I’ve also owned rental properties, so I can work with this analogy. Regardless how appealing one property is or how good the profit margin is today, my goal if I’m going to be a landlord and own rental property is to have a portfolio of properties of varying profit margins in different areas. I’m not going to bank on one being the top money-maker over the long haul, as too many other factors can affect the performance over a period of time (changing zoning laws; devaluation of neighboring properties; migration of tenants affecting how many actually pay) to categorically state that a single property will perform at max profit indefinitely.
Possibly the best analogy would be trading in the financial market, say deciding on a 401k portfolio. Any good money manager will tell you that the best portfolios are a balanced mix of aggressive high performance stocks (riskiest), mid-range performers (more conservative but lower profit yield), and safer low-yield bonds. That said, one never puts ALL their money in the aggressive stocks, as while the earnings potential is the greatest, the loss potential is also the greatest and most likely.
So, regardless the business, it is never a good business move to lay everything you have on a single bet. And no matter how highly he’s rated, Luck is still a bet in a number of ways (especially if he’s truly great but gets a career-ending injury-say Theismann- or a season-ender that affects him mentally).
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...
by WorL4Chiefs on Oct 19, 2011 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
w00000000000t
the end-all be-all argument against the horrific and non-sensical idea of trading an entire draft (or two) for one player (especially one unproven player)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Thanks Ups
a bit long-winded…but hard not to be with what was given. :-)
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...
Lets talk about SB winning QB's
In particular the one’s on that list.Now, you gave examples of’’average’’QB’s to appear in a Super Bowl.But out of the 29 listed,only 9 have actually won.That is less than a 3rd of SB’s won by a QB you consider average.That tells me for every Dilfer or Rypien,there are 2 Montana’s or Elway’s winning a championship.Also,some of those you call average are anything but that.Stabler is a perennial HOF candidate.Phil Simms,was a Super Bowl MVP,and a 2 time pro bowler.Theismann also is a 2 time pro bowler and a league MVP.Doug Williams helped turn the Bucs around in the late 70’s/early 80’s.When he left the Bucs ,they didn’t make the playoffs the next 15 years.Williams is also a SB MVP.In fact, he set records in that game.So when you really analyze it,only 5 were really what could be considered average.Dilfer,MCmahon and Johnson had HISTORICALLY great defenses.Hostetler also had a great defense (number 1 in fact) as well as the best coach at that time Parcells.Rypien had in my opinion the greatest coach ever on his sideline.
So yes ,you can be average and win a championship.IF you have an amazing defense ,and IF you have a HOF head coach,and IF you have elite personnel everywhere.But in today’s salary cap NFL,it is almost impossible to have all that.When I say the QB is the most important position on the team,it isn’t just me saying it. I have yet to hear a scout say ‘’we have to build around our wr’’ or,‘’we have put pieces around our LT’’.It is always about the QB,building around him,taking care of him.The QB is the leader of the team.He is the only skill player with the ball in his hands every snap.You are only as good as he is.
Ever notice that Peyton Manning gets new wr’s almost every year?Ever notice how he always seems to get the ball to them,no matter who they are?Funny how those same recievers don’t look near as good with Painter.Don’t fool yourself,an elite QB is everything to a team.And if you don’t believe me,lets just take a stroll down memory lane.Those teams we had in the 90’s were great TEAMS were they not?The best o-line in football ,a great front 7 ,great secondaries ,great running game,great special teams,great head coach.So where are all of our Lombardi trophies?Could it be that we don’t have any because our QB(fill in retreads name here)couldn’t make the throw when it mattered?You have to have a franchise QB in today’s NFL.Otherwise you will be average,rinse ,wash repeat.You have to do anything in your power to get that guy.Make no mistake,Luck is that guy.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Let’s agree to not take things out of context –
you quote me as saying "’’average’’QB’s". That is grossly out of context in the frame of the whole point I was making and the actual lead-in sentence.
What I actually said was: "Avg to Good (not great, not elite, not HOF’ers or likely to be) QB’s that took their teams to a SB:"
One of your previously stated qualifications for "elite QB" was "wins and losses." Using that measurement, ANY QB who takes their team to a SB has won enough that year to fulfill that qualification.
However, widely recognized qualifications /standards as to what makes a great QB include most of the standards on this composite list (Sports Psychology; American Football Monthly; ESPN; Sports Illus.):
Optimum physique-6’3", 215; strong throwing arm; quick feet; ability to read defenses; outstanding vision; excellent reflexes; clock management skills; self-discipline; focus; self-confidence; ability to stay calm under pressure; good leadership skills; motivational skills (people skills); outstanding communicator; good decision-making; physical and mental toughness; athleticism; ability to deceive with eyes and actions (not telegraph to the defense); efficiency; elimination of major mistakes; getting the team in the end zone; accuracy; arm strength; wins & losses (*notable with ESPN article – neither of the college QB’s they were looking at as great prospects ever panned out in the NFL).
SI article – a limitless ambition to improve (maybe this is the true "it" factor).
Wins/losses are not the only factor to consider (the reason that many experts so hotly debate Lamonica due to his accuracy issues and difficulty with zone defenses in spite of an awesome winning record – it’s why I left him out of the 54%). One can say there are great college QB’s or great NFL QB’s by their record, but not that a great college QB will be a great NFL QB, as the two are much different.
Note that NONE of the sites stated "SB MVP (once or more)" as a factor in deciding QB greatness, so let’s not even go there. Seriously, football experts everywhere would shoot you down big time for calling some of these guys great simply because they were an MVP for one SB.
The whole point is that the majority of the guys in the 54% identified wouldn’t have made it nearly as far as they did without a good balanced team around them along with great coaching. So while the QB position is very important, it’s very important to have at least a high-average to good one AND a solid team. A great one can spur others around them to step up (Montana, Elway, Unitas, etc.).
But, puhleeeeze don’t tell me that Phil Simms was a great QB. I researched and saw a lot of experts lists of the 10, 20, 30 greatest QB’s of all time, but didn’t see him or some of the others you’re trying to elevate on those lists. Stabler is a perennial candidate and not yet voted in because the experts point to the fact that his career stats are out of balance – more INTs than TDs, and that is not great.
Yes, the Chiefs had some kick butt teams in the 90s, BUT – they never had a truly balanced team; it was always killer defense and one-dimensional offense (good RB, but under-average WR and QB). Chiefs did have a great QB (one of THE greatest) in the 90s with Joe Montana. Even tho he was at the end of his career, he still bested Elway and could out-QB the others.
What he DIDN’T have was WR’s and a balanced team. So he didn’t make it back to the dance in 93.
We’ll be disagreeing on this indefinitely, so let’s leave it here and move along to the next topic that starts a debate.
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...
by WorL4Chiefs on Oct 21, 2011 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I am A saints fan
As much as I am a Chiefs fan I am a contrarian by nature. I love the Saints,in fact I got made fun of,when I wore my xxl hoodie (rememer those) to school.On Sunday ,I would sometimes be so angry that both my teams were losing.The Jim Haslette years were so painful.To have a come from behind, crazy latteral,td only to have Karney miss the PAT.,is brutal to say the least.But we finally got our QB Drew Brees.It is funny how 1 man can turn around 1 franchise.Now if only my AFC team can do the same
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 22, 2011 2:35 AM CDT up reply actions
YOU CAN NOT WIN
Without a franchise QB .You just cant, period.If you think so,I will bet everything I own.In fact I will bet my et3rnal soul on it! Don’t be stuck in the past.See the future.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 22, 2011 2:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Forgot to include 1 criteria...
A universally accepted method of grading of excellence is using percentages and lettering (A=90-100%; B=80-89% ect.). Using the criteria I listed above to grade the 54%, if one does not consistently exhibit 90% or more, they’re not great/franchise/elite, especially if they don’t consistently exhibit some of the most important qualities over at least 5 years. Just about anyone can have one or two great years, but the really great ones remained great over time.
Ergo, at least 45-50% of that list of 28 were not more than B or B+ over time, and they all won enough games to get them to the top with very good balanced teams.
Even the great ones struggled frequently when playing with less than stellar supporting casts.
A very good to great QB is definitely a HUGE plus, but a really good TEAM can win it all with an avg to good QB. The record proves it regardless what your opinion is.
I'm dressin my voodoo doll in stripes every season...
McNabb went from 5-11 to 13-3 in 2000
His leading pass catchers were Charles Johnson and Torrance Small .That year he went to the NFC Championship game enough said
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 12:30 AM CDT reply actions
Wheres his SB ring?
nuff said
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 5:59 AM CDT up reply actions
He got there
So many paint huffers act like the only way to have a succesful season is to win the Super Bowl. Like there is onle one team each year that can feel good about their season. I’ll take a team that is a perennial playoff team any day of the week.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
by HIV 2 Elway on Oct 18, 2011 7:38 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
But this whole SFL talk is about getting that franchise QB we haven't had for 40 years
and the championship we haven’t won for 40 years
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I think its more about getting a legit QB than it is a punched ticket to the Super Bowl
Chiefs seem to have many of the pieces in place with one position that is in dire need of an upgrade.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
2 drafts is a lot to bank on Luck
If he fails, which I don’t think he will, we’re absolutely in the shit. I’m not opposed to trading for him but not 2 drafts
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Thats too much but I'd have no problem giving up the entire 2012 draft and KCQB#7
Dude at Stanfurd is already calling his own plays and will be ready to go from day one.
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Who'd want KCQB#7
McDouche in STL? That is if they don’t fire his ass.
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Teams need a good backup QB
And KCQB#7 would be a cheap backup
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
When I did this research
I was suprised how consistent it was. Those 2 drafts from 99/00,produced 3 starters and 1 backup .That is almost identical to the 05/06 drafts that had 3.5 players on there 2nd contract.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
game/set/match hiv 2 Elway
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions
You mean like Schottenheimers Chiefs?
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Had a great team
But didn’t have the QB .That is why they didn’t go all the way
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
had Montana who was still elite in 94 ... ran into a better team in the Buffalo Bills
so even with Montana there was no guarantee …
give it up
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
The Dude was 40!
C’mon man you have to better than that.Besides he was the last guy to win us a playoff game
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions
dude, we won the division (and made the playoffs) with Matt Freaking Cassel
do you STILL not get it?!? Matt Cassel was enough to get us to the PLAYOFFS!
sheeeeeeeeeeeeeesh
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
maybe that's the difference between us
You are happy with a random playoff appearance every 5 years.I want championships.If you think we can get there with Cassel your nuts
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd love championships ...
but it’s a TEAM sport, sport … ONE GUY does NOT make a championship or even a team
that’s what you don’t seem to grasp
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
tell that to the colts
Or how about the cowboys post Aikman.Or the Broncos post Elway funny how there teams didn’t win without them.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Post Elway there was no Davis. Post Aikman the Cowboys lost a lot more than just a QB.
It’s not funny at all.
At one time the teams were able to put all the pieces (including the largest piece…the QB) together, along with coaching, and great team chemistry, and a little bit of luck… and they won it all.
When the coaching staff was hired by other teams, and players were picked off the team and shipped around/retired… the TEAM was not together any more.
It’s not JUST about Elway and Aikman
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Warren Moon 1993 Oilers 12-4. Next year without him 2-14
John Elway 1998 14-2 (super Bowl) Next year without him. 6-10
Steve Young 1998/99 14-5 before he got hurt. 99/00 without him.8-21
Jim Kelly 10-6 1996. Next year without him 6-10
Are you telling me that all those teams fell apart not just because of there QB’s leaving?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions
and Warren Moon won how many Super Bowls?
remind me again … because all you’ve done is spew the same nonsense about how an “elite QB” is all it takes
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Hmm..
Warren Moon… no SB’s
John Elway…no SB’s without a running game
Steve Young….CFL player that wasn’t a first rounder
Jim Kelly…. lost how many SB’s?
Are you telling me that the only piece the Chiefs need is a QB..and SPECIFICALLY Andrew Luck, at the cost of 2 years worth of draft picks… when 2 of these 4 players havent won a SB, 1 of them came from the CFL, and another couldn’t get the job done for years and years until Denver put a TEAM around him?
And YES… there are other reasons for those teams crumbling than the Qb… and AGAIN….. WTF does that have to do with Luck for 2 years of draft picks for the Chiefs in 2011?
Once again…. NO ONE is saying that the QB is not the BIGGEST piece of the puzzle. But there are OTHER pieces that a team needs. Football is a TEAM support. No player wins it on their own.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Young was a 1st rounder didn't play in CFL
Ok you can have your guard ,NT,ILB and backup D-lineman.I’ll take my chances with Luck and we’ll see who wins what how fast
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions
You're right. It wasn't the CFL. It was the USFL.
Which is even more sad.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions
He's in the hall of fame
Don’t see what’s sad about that
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Your argument... that's what's sad.
You support your argument of spending 2 years worth of draft picks for a #1 overall QB player by citing 4 guys that aren’t.
Moon wasn’t even drafted, Young and Kelly went to the USFL, and Elway was traded for a HELL of a lot less than 2 years worth of picks.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll take Roland Griffin......
+ My NT, ILB, D-Line depth, Back up pass rusher, FS, Nickel corner, Bruiser RB, Pass catching TE, Slot Receiver, ORT, AND OLG (Notice I also traded 3 picks for RG3)
And you get Luck…and no picks for the next 2 years.
Sounds like GREAT deal to me.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions
you seem to think
that 2 drafts will produce 14 good players that is absurd you might get 6 that are with you in 3 years and maybe 3 are decent starters
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd take 3 good starters every year for 3 years over 1 qb and no other new starters for 3 years
1 vs 9 or even 8 oter players … or 6 if you prefere
6 vs 1 … not even a contest
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I'm sure Indy would agree
Still have a lot of talent why are they this bad
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Again.. faulty argument
Indy built an entire defense around the idea of playing from the lead.
Without Peyton… and without a lead… the defense is struggling because they are being asked to do things they have never done before.
Indy either has to get Peyton back OR find a QB that can do everything that Peyton can do just as well (Fat Chance of that ever happening).. or they have to stockpile Draft picks to rebuild their entire defense in a philosophy to match whoever they end up with at QB.
You see… WHEN they get a new QB… the rest of the team (runners, blockers, defense etc)… will have to be built up to support the QB and their style.
You can’t do that without draft picks.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions
good thing they still have draft picks, huh!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
ya and they might get Luck
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
OMG.. you aren't suggesting that Luck is the next Peyton Manning are you?
Not only is he the only piece a team needs to 2 years…. but he’s going to be just as good as one of the best QB’s ever to play the game??
Did you drown in a pool of hype?
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions
I can see it now.
Some team trades away 2 years worth of draft picks for Luck.
They have a mediocre OL (say…at the RT position)… just sayin…
On the 3rd play of Lucks 2nd start a blitzer comes off the edge and sacks Luck. He ends up with a torn ACL and a fibia fracture… out for the season, and ineffective for 1/2 of the next season.
And the team has no draft picks to trade for a player IN SEASON… and no draft picks the next off season to add anyone to the team…
When Luck finally does get back… he’s behind the same OL that got him hurt, and he never has the same mobility ever again.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions
ya because the rules don't protect the QB or anything
That happned once to Brady in like 6 years
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Let's count JUST Brodie Croyles injuries... just that one player.
Now lets look at Stafford.
How about Bradford?
and Brady plays for a team that puts a PREMIUM on draft picks, and team depth. They will NEVER be caught in a position where they have no ability to fill the holes.
They had Cassel to lead them to 11 wins, thhey remain deep at QB and every other position to this day.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions
You do realize
The Pats are 32 in the league in defense.By your account they should be awful because its a team game.But Brady gets them threw it.And besides Welker and 2 good TE’s who else do they have on offense.He carries that team
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions
you do realize he was a 6th round pick and doens't support your argument for trading away 2 years of draft picks for a #1 QB at all, right?
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions
lightning in a bottle
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree.
Still doesn’t change the fact that He’s a terrible example for you to site while trying to defend the idea of trading away 2 years of draft picks for 1 QB.
In fact, probably the worst example you could have chosen in the last 50 years.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions
This is about luck
Not necassarly number 1 QB’s.He will go number 1 so that is what where will have to go to get him.I don’t think every QB that goes number 1 will be a star however
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Don't worry
We aren’t going to trade away 1 pick (let alone 14 )for anybody. So you and upman can relax.We can all sit back and relax knowing that we will have all our picks.And in April,when Goodell calls out the name of some OT that Pioli reached for ,we can all cheer and say what a genius he is.Then when we go 6-10 again,we’ll ‘’say ’’aww shucks well maybe next year’’.And in 2013 we will enjoy our new OT, and guard and NT and backup corner and say’’ now we have ourselves a team’’ .‘’Maybe now with 3 years out of the playoffs we finally made it back’‘.And when we turn on the TV and see Andrew Luck lighting up a scoreboard in his home stadium.The crowd going nuts ,Luck high fiving his team mates.We will look at each other and say ’’at least we have a team’’ God help us
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm going to say this then I'm going to bed
You aren’t going to change my mind nor am I going to change your mind.So, at this point it is useless to argue.When I wrote this post ,it was really just to show that a lot of draft picks don’t pan out, so might as well package them for what many believe will be a special player.I don’t think Pioli would ever do what I wish he would do.But everyone knows where I stand on this.All we can do is wait and see what type of player Luck becomes. If I’m wrong. well then we know why i’m not a GM.But if i’m right,and he becomes what I think he will become….then we made the biggest mistake in franchise history not getting him.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions
consider ... we trade 2 yrs of draft picks and get Andrew Luck, who you NOW say needs time to develop
meantime, Jamaal Charles is never a good runner again because of his injury, DBowe wants a bigger payday than Pioli is willing to give him and he moves on, Baldwin continues to be a diva and is sent packing, Wiegmann retires and Hudson starts and needs time to develop, Lilja gets old and needs to be replaced, and we still haven’t replaced BRich at RT
and that’s just the offense …
hey hey, we have Andrew Luck, oh boy … and the team goes 6-10 for two more years but we get NO MORE DRAFT PICKS
Powe sits on the bench, DJ gets old, Berry isn’t as good as before the injury … get my drift? we can’t do anything about any other position because of your trading away drafts fro two years
and meanwhile Luck is the one who sucks
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
The guy isn't going to suck
sorry if you don’t want to believe that.Besides if we get Luck do you know how many coaches would want to come here?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions
The guy probably isn't going to suck
but there’s still a CHANCE that he will. There’s also a chance that he doesn’t translate to the NFL how you think he will. There’s also a chance he ends up injured. There’s also a chance he’s never more than a middle of the road player.
You may not believe that those things will happen… but there is a possibility that they do, and no guarantee that they wont. So trading away 2 years worth of picks for him is a really terrible idea.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions
No I don't
You seem to think that the 14 picks will end in 3 players that ever play and are out of the league in 3 years EVERY time… because that’s what you came up with in the two 2 year blocks you have mentioned.
The average length of an NFL career is 3 years.
I figure I get 10 of my 14 players for at least a year. Then I get 7 of those for a second year. Then I get 5 of those for a 3rd year, and I get 3-4 of those as long term contributors on the team.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions
that was in 99/00 draft
05/06 draft 2 samples
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions
Umm thats what I said.
because that’s what you came up with in the two 2 year blocks you have mentioned.
TWO 2 year blocks (2 sets of 2 years)
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions
And what proof do you have that Luck can win championships?
he has yet to win a national championship, hell he has yet to even win a Pac 10 championship
well
I don’t have ’’proof’’ of anything badass.But you take what you know and divide that by what you research and what you come up with is he gives us the best chance out of this (or next years) draft class.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I completely disagree with that assessment
He’s a great college QB, that will get an opportunity in the pros to show what he can do. Chances are, he’ll be pretty good.
But those are just the assumptions of the draftniks. Luck doesn’t have a winning pedigree in college, and that’s the crux of every argument I’ve seen against your idea of giving up 2 drafts.
By giving up soooo much for one player you paint your team into a corner. If the guy you have pinned all hope to doesn’t end up being the best QB since Manning… then you’ve set yourself back YEARS.. (2 years worth of draft picks, and 2-3 year to develop talent once you can draft again)
Take what you know (Luck is a damn good college QB, that hasn’t shown the ability to take a team to a national championship, or even a division championship on his own…. because it takes a TEAM to win, not just 1 player) Divide by what you research (what the hell does that even mean? Research of game film and winning record, research of what the talking heads are saying, research of the hype?)
What you come up with (a really good QB that has a good chance to be successful in the NFL someday… assuming he lands in the right place, with the right coaches, the money doesn’t go to his head, he doesn’t get injured, and he has enough talent on the team around him on both offense and defense to aid in his development and success)
You’re making a blanket statement that this ONE GUY is the end all be all of what the Chiefs need. You won’t even acknowledge the existence of the other QB’s available in the draft in 2012…. and I cannot believe you you added next years draft into that statement.
You’ve driven you head so far down into the sand that is the Andrew Luck hype that you can’t see the sunlight (or any other logical argument) shining on Lucks ass. Luck DOES have a back side (downside…the possibility NOT to be the end all, be all of QB’s in the 2012 class). There IS a chance that Luck won’t be the next Peyton Manning… a GOOD chance. Peyton is one of the best QB’s ever to play in the game. Projecting that kind of success onto Luck before he’s ever taken a single snap in the NFL.. or even winning a division championship in college is completely asinine. You’ve swallowed the hype like a herring on a bait line, and giving up entire draft(s) for that one guy is going to end with the team’s dead corpse lying in the bottom of the boat awaiting slaughter.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
where to even begin
‘’Luck doesn’t have a winning pedigree in collge’’.In 2009 he was 8-4,in 2010 he was 11-1,so far in 2011 he is 6-0.Do a little research before you make a statement like that.He hasn’t won a national championship you are right.Neither did Brady,Brees,Manning ,Rodgers.But you know who did? Matt Leinhart,Jamarcuss Russell,Vince Young.So what does that have to do with anything?What has Denver done without Elway?Answer me that.What has the Cowboys TEAM done without AIKMAN?What has the 49ers TEAM done without Steve Young?What has the Dolphins TEAM done without Marino?How about the Colts team without Manning?How did the great chiefs TEAM of the 90’s do.Try 0 rings and you know why?They didn’t have a QB that’s why.Sounds like you are the 1 with your head in the sand.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Ive answered all those things already
You can’t argue that the only chance the chiefs have to win a championship (and woth 2 years of drafts) is just ONE guy (Luck) … and that he can do it without the benefit of a strong team around him…and that the team doesn’t need to continue to draft more talent, because they have Luck….and Luck will lead the team to the championship in the NFL…..
When he’s never even done it on college.
The Chiefs teams of the 90’s didn’t have a QB, and could have used one. But they had all the other parts in place. Then Chiefs of 2011 DON’T have all the parts in place, nor the depth… they NEED to keep improving the team. They DON’T need to give away 2 years of the future for Luck….. when they could pick up another QB in the 1st round with potential…and STILL be able to build a team around them.
Face facts… you’re completely lost in the Andrew Luck hype.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Tebow, Newton ... hell, even Carson Palmer was a #1 overall but still, nothing spectacular from him in 8 years
Newton’s team has won what ONE game this year … Tebow is in his second year and just now making his first start of his career
in other words, some much hyped QBs just like your precious Andrew Luck who have done a grand total of nothing
you still don’t get it …
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
omg
Newton has only played 5 games in his career!.I mean seriously man ‘’I don’t get it’’ maybe you should look in the mirror
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
And Luck has played ZERO..... get it... ZERO!
If Newton isn’t instantly a winner after 5 games, how is it that Luck is going to lead us to a Super Bowl after playing ZERO games, and without the benefit of the next 2 years worth of draft picks?
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:41 PM CDT up reply actions
The guy is the best pro prospect in 30 years
NO and I mean NO qb has had that said about him.Scouts protect there ass when it comes to qb’s.I have never heard that much universal praise ever
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions
You seem to confuse the word prospect with the word guarantee
That stuff you’re reading… it’s called hype.
Anointing a player before they ever take a snap…
He’s a prospect, and a damn good one. He’ll PROBABLY be a very good QB in his NFL career at some point (barring injury).
But without an OL to block him, a running game to give him time to learn the NFL game, and a defense to support him…. he cannot win it on his own. NO ONE CAN.
Please link me the quotes from the articles that call him “the best pro prospect in 30 years” … I’d love to see if you can produce the quote of 1 NFL Scout that has said that…. (talking head hype is not the same thing… you specifically said scouts)
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
google luck best prospect since elway
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions
look, some NOT positive quotes about Luck ... what a shock!
Good decision maker overall, but that’s not to say that he didn’t make mistakes in 2010
Doesn’t have the quickest arm motion (little bit of a wind-up)
Sometimes he runs too far backwards when the rush closes in on him and that could create some negative plays in the NFL
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Not seeing a single NFL scout calling him the best QB prospect in 30 years...
…hmmm, interesting.
It couldn’t be…nahhh… there’s no chance that we’re talking about a really good college QB with a lot of potential that has been waaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy over hyped by the media.
Nah.. that NEVER happens. Ever…ever. (Aside from, hmm, every damn year)
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
i heard todd McShay say it the other day
He’s espn’ college scout
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions
quote?
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions
no luck finding a quote huh?
That stuff you are hearing… it’s called hype.
and Andrew Luck gets way more than his fair share of it.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions
mirrorman, you need to understand ... Newton has done NOTHING
with all the hype he’s done ZERO … that goes for a lot of other very highly thought of college QB’s … nothing, zero, nada, zip
and yet you claim that one guy can and will win a Super Bowl “instantly” (that’s certainly your implication … that it would happen immediately and overnight … and that it’s such a sure thing that a team wouldn’t even need any other draft picks for another two full years)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
the guy has looked like a beast
after 5 game what do you expect him to do?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions
the same thing that YOU claim Andrew Luck would do ... win a Super Bowl
this year
right now
immediately
that’s your CLEAR implication of what Luck would do … win a Super Bowl immediately
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
when did I say that
I said I expect him to get there but I never said immediatly. That is you being melodramatic again
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions
your implication is that it would happen
and if it didn’t happen immediately, nobody would be happy … especially if the team wasn’t able to add ANY other playeers for another two full years after that
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I think he makes this team instantly better
As far as a super bowl this year ,no I don’t expect that.But a playoff team,I don’t see how thats to much.This team has pieces you act like were the 08 lions.We have some young talent Charles,Dex,Bowe Breaston,Baldwin(if he can get on the field)Moeaki(see Baldwin) that s alot of weapons for a QB
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
we were a playoff team a year ago with Cassel
that should tell you something
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
easy scheduele had a lot to do with that
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions
oh!
so all one REALLY needs is a crappy average QB and an easy schedule …
got it!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
what happened in the playoffs ,nuff said
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions
according to your argument?
I expect him to win the Superbowl this year, or next year.. with no other draft picks added to the team.
According to my argument…. I expect him to put in his time, and learn the NFL game… and do everything he can to win with all the parts the team puts around him for the next couple years.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions
when did I say this year
Now you’re making shit up
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions
You suggest..over and over...
That Luck would be worth the next 2 years draft picks, and that you think his team would win FASTER, SOONER, and MORE than a team that took a different QB…and still had their draft picks.
Ok you can have your guard ,NT,ILB and backup D-lineman.I’ll take my chances with Luck and we’ll see who wins what how fast
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions
But I never said now,right now,day 1 we win the super bowl
Because i don’t believe that
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions
no one believes that.
Because no player is worth the hype that Luck has been built up to being worth. No player in NFL history (or any other sport for that matter)
The team NEEDS to be able to place pieces around the QB and build depth in order to be successful. They cannot do that when they give away everything for 1 guy.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:27 AM CDT up reply actions
of the top 15 QB's in the league right now
11 were taken in the 1st round
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions
THERE ARE OTHER QB's IN THE FIRST ROUND BESIDES ANDREW LUCK
That is the entire point that upamtn and others have been trying to hammer into your head.
Luck is not a god.
There are other options, IN THE FIRST ROUND, that the Chiefs should take before doing something as stupid as trading away 2 years of picks for Luck.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions
So you think Landry Jones is an option
He runs the spread offense go see how succesful that has been in the nfl.Barkly looks like a choke artist.How many usc QB’s have panned out in the NFL?RG3 if he runs like he does now in the he won’t last 2 years
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions
ok, consider this ...
super college QB Sam Bradford … decent last year and horrible this year
compare what he’s done with what Suh has done for the Lions … Suh has made a much bigger impact, his team is doing much better than Bradford’s
that alone should tell you that other players have impact, not JUST the QB
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Not saying no other player can make an impact
Besides again it is only Bradfords 2nd year.Give these a few minutes
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions
why?
again, your CLEAR implication is that Andrew Luck will instantly and immediately turn any franchise into a Super Bowl winner … that it will happen immediately … his rookie year and nothing bad will ever happen for the next two years and that team will do it all and win it all and nobody will ever get hurt and even if they do it won’t matter because Andrew Luck is better than two entire drafts, better than 14 other playeers combined
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
a few Minutes/years... I don't think thats what you mean...
I think you mean….
Give them time to learn the game and give the TEAM time to BUILD the team around them!!
But the team CAN’T build around them if they give away all their picks.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Peyton Manning Runs the fucking spread offense. What do call that 5 wide shotgun they run all the damn time?
And considering your head in the sand, there is no downside, he’s the best player to come out at QB since forever, and he so good the team that takes him wont need a draft pick for the next 2 years assessment of Andrew Luck…….
I choose to completely ignore your assessment of the other QB’s coming out in 2012. I have no faith in your scouting ability.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions
every team runs it
just not all the time cmon
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions
You're the one that said it doesn't work in the NFL, not me.
So now you’re backing off of that point?
Of course it doesn’t work all day every day on every down.. NOTHING does in the NFL. Defenses are better than that.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions
Elway was 38 when he won the Super Bowl...
…and he never would have won one at all if the Broncos hadn’t put together a superior running game.
All those years Elway was there…and he couldn’t win the big one until he had a TEAM around him. TE’s WR’s and a running game….
An elite QB is probably the biggest piece of the puzzle to winning a Super Bowl, but it’s still just ONE piece. You’ve got to put a team around them. Ask Dan Marino. Without Tom Brady the Pat’s don’t win 3 Bowls, but without their defense, or Wes Welker, or a kicker with more clutch than a nitro powered funny car… they don’t win them either.
You CANNOT give away everything for a QB and realistically believe that you’ve put yourself in the best position to win. If you take a step back from the hype, take a couple deep breaths, and really THINK about what you’re suggesting…. I bet even you don’t believe it.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe
An average of 3.5 players per team are all that’s left from the 05/06 drafts.That’s not much my friend.I’ll take my chances with Luck.Because what has the Bills TEAM done without Kelly?
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions
They seem to be doing pretty damn good with Fitzpatrick
Now that they’ve managed to put a defense on the field that is causing a ton of turnovers, and fielding a running game that can shoulder a lot of the load.
The TEAM is a lot better.
NO ONE is arguing that the QB is NOT the BIGGEST PIECE in the championship puzzle. It’s just not a piece worth selling out the rest of the team for years into the future for.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
remember too that the Bills TEAM had Thurman Thomas, a great RB ... some very good WRs and a killer Defense
once again you miss the point
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Bruce Smith and Thurman Thomas were apparently bush league?
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
and they did had that when the bills went 6-10 without Kelly in97
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions
they were 23rd in Defense
-20 (ranked 28th) in turnover differential
Thurman Thomas was 31 and had under 700 yds rushing (and in fact had less than Antowain Smith
see, the team got old … not only was Kelly gone but the rest of the team needed new parts
you can’t replace old, worn out parts without a draft … get that thru your head
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I like your post but there is one factual inaccuracy.
The days of hitting someone in the mouth and playing smash mouth football,are going the way of the buffalo.
The buffalo aren’t going away. They are making a comeback.
http://www.americanbison.org/articles/the-buffalo-make-a-comeback.html
Those Bills aint doing bad either
Ya know the Buffalo Bills
I don't start arguments, I provoke thinking. -Me
Alameda Ta’amu NT/DE 2012 Draftee
by BAMFSpecialOps on Oct 18, 2011 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, we could get a Manning
Look, i’ve been a big time, lets-get-luck guy around here, but 2 whole drafts is beyond stupid. He is good and is the best prospect since Manning, but he is now at the point where he is getting hyped beyond reason. trading two drafts? you’d better hope he leads us to 3+ SBs, and win them for that price. people like you are getting your feathers ruffled about how we need a franchise QB, which is 100% true. but it’s pretty foolish, to sell two entire draft for some who hasn’t even thrown a pass in the NFL. Luck, IMO, has about a 90% chance of succeed in the NFL, but two whole drafts is losing a lot if he doesn’t pan out. I might be convinced of selling one draft but not two
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
ummmm
I don’t care what the price is, if we won 1 super bowl that price would not be considered too much.
Come on now its the super bowl. It is just about weighing risk. Luck isn’t going to be a bust, but he could get injured, he could be an average QB or the rest of the team he is on could just not be talented enough to ever win a super bowl.
I agree that giving up 2 drafts is crazy but if we were guaranteed a super bowl there is nobody who wouldn’t jump at that.
Also there is no way the first pick would take 1 draft in return. No way.
no guarantees ... that's why all this is incredibly asinine
if we were guaranteed a super bowl
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
i was responding to this quote
you’d better hope he leads us to 3+ SBs
3? Really 3? If we got 1 it would be worth it, 3 is completely ridiculous.
It’s about the risk, it has nothing to do with how many super bowls he had “better win”.
there are no guarantees
I’m not guaranteed to live out the day.But I get out of bed and get around. You aren’t ’’guaranteed’’ anything in life ,forget football.It is that type of thinking that has held this team back.Especially during the 90’s when we had a great team,(yes I said TEAM) except QB.Chiefs had the best O-line in football,the best running game,a great front 7,a great secondary,very good special teams,an elite head coach.But where are the rings at ?By your definition ,this team had all the pieces to win championships.They didn’t win because they were average at QB.When the game was on the line,our QB whoever the retread was couldn’t make the throw when it counted.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
is it?
like you say, there are no guarantee’s. i think it’s 14 shots in the dark V. 1 really good shot.
i’m on the fence.
Go luck yourself.
by ottawachiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Luck is not gauranteed to get us a SB
Marino was one of the best ever and never won one
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd take 10+ years of a football team led by Marino
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Really?
Because I am pretty sure you have been all over people who are ok with just making the playoffs and losing.
I disagree this pick is going to cost a fortune if it's even traded
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
If you give up 2 entire drafts for him and he ends up injured constantly, or an average QB, or he can't lead whatever team is around him to success...
… then he’s a big fat stinking BUST.
That’s precisely why it’s dumb to give away an entire draft (yet alone 2) for one player.
You’re tossing all your eggs into ONE basket, and if things don’t work out just exactly like you thought they would…. you don’t have any bargaining position to improve your team through the draft, or replace other glaring holes.
For 2 full drafts… anything less than being able to take your CURRENT team (no matter how poor) to a Superbowl Championship is a bust.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
I can find other players
Arian Foster was undrafted
Miles Austin was undrafted
Brian Waters was undrafted
Jason Peters was undrafted
Wes Welker was undrafted
There is only 1 undrafted QB to win a super bowl Kurt Warner.When you identify that franchise guy,you do everything you can to get him .They are a rare breed indeed
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, you're right ... we NEED a "franchise QB" an we must have a #1 Pick, only a #1 Pick will do!
someone tell Scott Pioli to call JaMarcus Russell IMMEDIATELY … saints_chiefsfan1979 is right and we NEED to get him signed RIGHT NOW!
it’s our only hope!!!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Lets go to the old saw 1 more time(your calling card)
And use the most extreme example we can find.Yes Russel was a bust.And yes he was the number 1 pick.But I don’t recall anyone but AL thinking he would be any good.Lane Kiffen got fired because he benched Russel
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
you have an entire post of "the most extreme examples" here dude
that knife cuts both ways, dude … but yanno what? I’m not gonna argue with ya anymore … you refuse to listen to what 50 other people have to say …
enjoy your fantasy
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
You will be missed
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Seriously? You're calling upamtn out for siting extreme examples?
You support your thoughts of Luck by pointing to Manning.
You choose a crappy draft as evidence that draft picks aren’t worth much.
You point to Elway and Aikman (even though Aikman was not a #1 overall QB, and Elway was on his second team) while completely ignoring Russell, Leaf, Smith, etc…
And most importantly.. you keep changing the subject and arguing side points that have little to do with the arguments being posed to you….. because you KNOW your position is indefensible.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Just saw this response Aikman was takin 1 overall
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions
ok.. Aikman was #1 over all.
Which does nothing to refute my statement, or support yours.
Your examples are just as extreme as the ones you are calling others out for.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions
And yet there are quite a few NON #1 overall picks at QB that HAVE won Superbowls.
There are even MORE “franchise QB’s” that were NOT drafted #1 overall.
There are, in fact, more QB’s in the draft than Andrew Luck in 2012. Really…. I swear. If you don’t believe me, go and look.
BTW.. looking at all the players you just listed….How many have won Superbowls? Just the late rounder that was traded from the Dolphins to the Patriots to catch passes from a 6th round QB? right?
BTW.. looking at all the players you just listed….How many have won Superbowls? Just the late rounder that was traded from the Dolphins to the Patriots to catch passes from a 6th round QB? right?And are you honestly arguing that the Chiefs would NOT be at a MASSIVE disadvantage being able to ONLY pick up undrafted players when/if Andrew Luck CAN’T play all 22 positions on the field and win the Super Bowl? Does the fact that you can name 5 or 6 pretty good players that were undrafted have ANYTHING AT ALL to do with the idea that a QB can’t do it on his own, and a team needs it’s draft picks to build youth, depth, and team talent year after year?
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Look at the numbers
In 99/00 drafts 3 starters and 1 backup came out of all those picks (including the saints picks)In 05/06 drafts 3.5 players taken on average are still in the league.Those aren’t big numbers.In fact ,I was kind of shocked by those numbers.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
(sigh)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
by MNchiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 6:53 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I concur
I must start to learn to ignore all this Luck talk. It just goes around and around and all I ever do is repeat myself then once this SFL post disappears into the archives another is up. for or against the whole topic bothers me. As Todd Haley says “i’m only gonna talk about the guys that are here”
KC Draft prediction: No OT taken in first round
by trentchiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions
We are now talking trade for Luck
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
The Ricky Williams trade was about as stupid as it gets
And there is a high unlikelihood that any GM would be that stupid nowadays to give up that much. But giving up a first this year and next year to jump up to #1 isn’t out of the realm of possibility. There isn’t a prospect more worth that risk right now, especially to join this team, which, when healthy, might be one of the more solid teams for a rookie QB to come in to
I'm so overrated, I'm underrated.
by RememberDelaney37 on Oct 18, 2011 7:08 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
I wouldn't do it for a RB ,but when you look up what they gave up,it wasn't much.
Lavarr Arrington,Desmond Clark,Billy Miller and a bunch of scrubs out of the league after 3 years.That was the point of the post,to show that it really isn’t as bad as it sounds.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, it was and didn't do Mike Ditka
any good. Ricky had his best years as a Dolphin. Most people thought Dikta went crazy.
8 picks and those teams got 2 decent starters and a backup that is embarrasing
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
You've got that bunch in your corner,
and I’ll take Jimmy Johnson. I’m open to trading for Luck, but not an entire draft, or even more than 3 players. Because the days of bruising are not over. The Giants and many others are still into bruising. It works. I’ll take the wind out of your high-flying team by knocking them around the field. It works. They get slower. Just ask Hawaii after that GA game a few years back.
Saints,Packers didn't run the ball when they won
But look at the 05/06 drafts that’s with all GM’s elite or not.Yes some did better than others but 228 is still a very low number of guys still in the league.As far as the Herschal Walker trade goes,I would never give up that much for a RB.Especially 1 that already had that much wear and tear on him.By the way those 13 player/picks Johnson got only produced 5 quality players
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions
I'll agree the QB position is worth more picks.
RB is not. I’m just opposed to giving up too much for anyone. Its just a philosophy.
I know what the numbers bring. That tells me you need a lot of competition in order to be a consistent winner and SB champion. It means something else to others.
Those 5 quality players were pretty good, were they not? How many have done better? There are some, but very few. He put Aikman v. Walsh with no guarantees, or numbers. Lets see who runs the offense better. He made a good choice.
I'm just saying QB is a whole different animal.
Yes Jimmy got some good values.All I am saying is ,what he did was very rare.In fact I think the Nfl network ranked that the 3rd best draft of all time. It usually doesn’t go down like that.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I agreed with you on QB
My gut told me it was a pretty good draft class and having to watch the Cowgirls play all the time. I like Aikman though. Hard to beat those Oklahoma QB’s.
Its very rare that it goes down like that. You create competition with the subsequent drafts and other various types of acquistions. Competition can help your past, present and future drafts making it a better team.
What about Stanzi?
I find it hard to believe everyone is clammoring for Luck when we just drafted Stanzi. If we are going to go after Luck then at least we should first give Stanzi a try to see if he is any good. Why mortgage the future if we may already have the answer on the roster?
"There is no try. Do or do not."
5th round pick
Could be a could backup but 5th round picks are the exception not the rule
Standing on the corner in a white Godfather hat. He drives a long black gangster Cadillac. He can steal a broads mind, man, in three or four minutes. It’s not how long you talk, brother, it’s what you put in it.
Which is why I say toss the kid in there
Might as well see if we’ve caught lightening in a bottle.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
by MNchiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Well, Pioli
did say he’d like to draft a new QB every year. If they do in 2011, chances are his name won’t be Luck, probably another 4 – 5 rounder.
As the old saying goes
Don’t put all ’yer eggs in one basket.
But, I don’t think the idea is as crazy as it sounds. I mean, if the GM is confident that a guy is going to be a future hall of fame QB, and he has a solid young team already in place, then the team could probably withstand two empty drafts and recover. I think the biggest problem with this is that it’s a physical game and injuries do happen. I remember there was a QB in the early ‘80s who everyone expected to be the next great one. He ended up with a very bad injury, I think as a rookie, and he never recovered. There’s nothing to say that the same won’t happen to Luck.
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
Free agency
Just look at all the teams that lost all there franchise QB’s.Broncos,Bills,Dolphins,Cowboys,49ers have never been the same.Hell,even the Lions haven’t been the same after trading Bobby Lane and that was 50 years ago.No 1 player changes things more than a QB.Injuries happen ,but it is a much less of a risk at QB.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
This is a very interesting argument
Another interesting component is to consider the amount of cap room we still have available and the pieces we already have in place.
Luck would be relatively cheap (Cam Newton’s was only $22MM for 4 years, so assume Luck is $24MM for 4 years, only counting $6M against the cap). That would still leave us $26-28MM under the cap. Use that money to re-sign DBowe, find a right tackle (unless Gaither emerges), don’t know if we need a middle line backer once Siler’s back, and add some safety depth. Now we’re starting to look pretty good all over the field.
Huzzah! Fantasy football has returned, allowing me to slap my opponents (family members) across the face with my favorite pair of white satin gloves. En garde, monkeys!
good point
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions
amen
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree
Are there really people that would rather lose for a season than give up some draft picks. Give up the picks, get the missing piece to the puzzle, and win the GDSB.
Go luck yourself.
by ottawachiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
If the chiefs were to trade up and get Luck
I would streak accross the country with two tattoos of the KC logo on my ass cheecks.
by Chiefs Nation 24 on Oct 18, 2011 9:48 AM CDT reply actions
haha I would have to join you
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
They should have hired Jimmy Johnson to do the drafting
They would have gotten better players.
Lets see, one guy thinks Luck Sucks. Many other football personnel think he is the real deal. But the H.S. guy is the real talent scout. That settles it for me. Luck Sucks!
But, I would draft him anyway. If both he and Stanzi turn out to be Brady, then just trade one of them. Dallas drafted Aikman and Walsh just for the competition. As everyone says there are no guarantees. We hear it all the time. So bring in as much competition as you can and let it all sort itself out.
We don’t have to worry about trading the entire draft for Luck. Not gonna happen. Pioli likes more players to choose from, not less. The problem with KC for many seasons is that they didn’t make the players compete from year to year for their positions. Just walk in and its yours. Not a good formula when you are dealing with commodities that have a short shelf life.
Kind of agree
Franchise QB, assume a P Manning (big assumption) is worth many draft picks and the team getting those picks doesn’t normally get anything like the same value as what they give up. I think the Herschel Walker (Sorry for butchering the name) did kind of go the other way around and ‘made’ the Cowboys. Pretty sure everyone Broncos, Fins, etc. in the running is well aware of this as well. Biggest Problem>>Only teams I can see that would consider trading away the overall no.1 (assuming Luck declares) would be the Rams or Panthers. and they would be fools to trade down more than 3 – 4 places.
well he already has his degree so there is no reason for him to stay in college
Aside from playing another year of college and risking injury? Ya he’ll declare.
If we're picking in a spot where we can REASONABLY trade up and grab RG3
I don’t see why. 2 entire drafts? That would really make it tough to fill in the cracks as players get older and retire, or contracts expire.
However, if they traded 2 firsts and 2 seconds along with a third, I wouldn’t be THAT upset.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I told myself
That I wouldn’t comment on anymore SFL or We need Luck posts but this crap is getting out of hand. It was bad enough to lower yourself to rooting against this team but now you want to mortgage our future for 1 player who may or may not turn out to be great. And to try and convince yourself by going back and what if’ing two drafts is retarded. The failures and successes of the players you mentioned had as much to do with the situations they were in as the players themselves. Whose to say that your Cade MCnown wouldn’t have turned out differently if he had gone to the Saints. And by selling your soul (draft picks) you severely hamper your new QBOF. Who’s gonna protect him since we also need a new RT and will soon need a new LG. Who’s gonna protect the leads he builds since our LB’s and Safeties could use some new pieces. There are too many good to f’ing awesome qb’s in this upcoming draft to do this. Period.
I gave examples of QB's that have came in and immediatly turn around there franchise
But if you want to trade a franchise QB for a saftey or a guard be my guest.Just don’t complain how much this team sucks 5 years from now.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 12:07 PM CDT reply actions
You have your philosophy and I'll have mine
I’d rather get a first round quarterback that can still be good in this league like Brees, Rodgers, Rivers, etc., and at the same time continue to build my team and take my chances that way than go after a Peyton Manning and put up good records every year. Losing two drafts better promise me a dynasty, and make no mistake, the Colts were never a dynasty.
not at spot 10,11
You will only lose 3-4 good players.Besides,this team is 20 million under the cap.If Pioli would bust out his check book,we would have more depth on this team.Look at the Colts after Manning got hurt.Nobody ever talked about there depth prior to that.A franchise QB elevates the whole team
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Still gotta sign Bowe & Carr to long-term deals
Predictions:
I'm going to stop predicting positive things
Still don't get what I'm saying
You can get a franchise qb without getting Luck. You’re assuming the Chiefs don’t draft in the top 10, well I say they do. Regardless of this star struck feeling people have with Manning, the Colts are not the end all be all on how to run a franchise. I’d rather run things like the Steelers or Packers and build that way.
Steelers were 6-10 in 2003 without big ben the next year with him they were 15-1
Why they had the same players.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
So you are saying that
Roethlisberger and their 28th ranked pass offense was the reason for them going 15-1 and not the fact that they had the
- rushing offense
- pass defense
- rush defense
- total defense
Yeah it was definitely all cuz of the QB
what the crap
that is supposed to say #2 rush offense, #4 pass defense, #1 rush defense and #1 total defense
it's all good, dude ...
saints_chiefsfan will NEVER agree with common sense or give up the mistaken notion that TCQBWSNBN is the only human being in the universe who could ever possibly do anything positive for the team
(in fact, I’d wager that he thinks TCQBWSNBN and 10 midgets could win the Super Bowl with the Chiefs 2003 Defense, all because TCQBWSNBN is just that good)
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
OK bud,it's bed time
Don’t forget your binkie and baba when you go upstairs.Really,could you be any more immature.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions
He's not far off from your argument.
And it makes just as much sense
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions
honestly, I thought that WAS his "argument"
trade two entire drafts? that’s just about what you’re left with … it’s all good, Tex, appreciate the support, but you know how it is: some people will never listen to anyone or anything that doesn’t agree with their misguided notions
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
they were 15th in pts allowed and 9 in yds allowed in 03 same players in 04.
2003 Tommy Maddox 6-10 record , 21st on 3rd down conversion.Big Ben 2004 ,14-1, .11th in 3rd down conversion.
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
cherry picking stats again I see.
Lets look at ALL the stats. Not just the ones that support your argument
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I would say 3rd down conversion is pretty important
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions
So would I
It’s an important stat.
Now back to the point of the statement. Look at ALL the stats instead of just the ones that support your argument. It will become plain just how much better the TEAM was (defense and running game) the year Roth came out than the year before.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Roth kept his team on the field
That gave his defense a rest. They didn’t have to be on the field all day
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 19, 2011 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions
The Bus kept his offense on the field
Roth managed to not fuck it up enough to lose.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions
yup!
Twisted Lord of AP Color Commentary (H/T - Loco)
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Bettis 110 carries 368 yards in 05
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 20, 2011 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions
1200+ yards for willie parker, 21 rushing TD's for the team
2223 yards rushing for the team.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions
point remains
The running game carried Roth… Roth wasn’t worth a shit in the SB game. It was more Parker than the Bus… but it still wasn’t Roth.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Did you WATCH Roth's first SB?
He was TERRIBLE. Absolutely awful.
His team carried him, and that’s a fact.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 19, 2011 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Your Roethlisberger argument is only supporting my argument
If you think Luck is the only Roethlisberger tier quarterback in this upcoming draft, now you’re just talking crazy. There are other quarterbacks besides Luck in this draft that can have an even bigger impact than Big Ben did. All I’m saying is that it is better to build the entire team AND get a good quarterback.
by old_school on Oct 21, 2011 12:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
and you're wrong
That’s like saying Garrard is as good as Manning. There’s only 1 sure fire QB in this draft and he’s the best in 10 years.
In Todd We Trust!
Good analogy
People see a 6th round pick in Tom Brady and think a franchise QB can come in any round.You and I know that isn’t true.Most of the top QB’s go in the 1st round.Here are the top 15 QB’s and when they were drafted
Tom Brady 6th round
Aaron Rodgers 1st round
Drew Brees 2nd round
Peyton Manning 1st round
Ben Rothlesburger 1st round
Phillip Rivers 1st round
Matt Ryan 1st round
Eli Manning 1st round
Michal Vick 1st round
Tony Romo UFA
Matt Schaub 3rd round
Mark Sanchez 1st round
Joe Flaco 1st round
Josh Freeman 1st round
Jay Cutler 1st round
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Did you read my post?
Garrard was picked in the 4th round. I was talking about 1st round picks. Don’t try to compare Garrard to this year’s 1st round prospects. There are guys in this draft that can pan out to be Andrew Rodgers or Phillip Rivers caliber players just as likely as Luck can pan out to Peyton Manning status.
by old_school on Oct 19, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe Julio Jones is better analogy
I wouldn’t go ‘Rick Williams’ trade but I would go ‘Julio Jones’ trade. I’d easily give up 3 out of 4 picks. The folks that don’t get the Suck for Luck idea don’t realize the rules have changed. Since the rookies are so cheap now, there will be MORE trades than ever! The key to it all is to have the #1 pick. That’s why coming from behind against Indy was the DUMBEST move this franchise has ever made.
In Todd We Trust!
You try telling people on here that
I’ve been saying it for a month
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
NO!
There is never a reason to Lose. I would trade A LOT for a QB like Manning, we shouldnt lose on purpose
Go luck yourself.
by ottawachiefsfan on Oct 18, 2011 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions
and you've been wrong for a month.
You don’t play to lose the game, and you’ll never convince your players to play to lose the game. You don’t piss on the careers of your players by asking them to take a dive and not worry about if they have a job next year. You don’t shit on the game of football and hand over every last bit of self respect and integrity you ever had by losing games on purpose.
And if you’re a fan of the the team.. you don’t encourage your team to act as poor sportsman in this way.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 20, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Like my post says
I don’t care how we get him just as long as we get him
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 6:03 PM CDT reply actions
If the Colts draft Luck, why don't we just trade for Peyton Manning?
Nicknames I have coined:
Jamaal Charles = 'Haley's Comet'
Shaun Smith = 'Big Nasty'
Kelly Gregg = 'Old Gregg'
Ha ,Ya
Joe Montana redux
In nomeni parti et fili spiritus sancti
by saints_chiefsfan1979 on Oct 18, 2011 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions

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