The Cold, Hard Touch Of "The Deep Freeze"
Since the season ended for the Chiefs, there has been ample time to ruminate about just what made the difference between the 4-12, 2009 squad and the 2010 AFC West Champions. So many things must be taken into consideration that it becomes readily apparent that it wasn't just one thing, but a host of things that created the biggest win-loss turn around in Chiefs history. Somehow, with all the expectations looking to the future, that achievement seems a bit overlooked. The Chiefs have never improved by six wins from one season to the next before now. I don't know if that makes me happy or sad. Is it a great sign post for what is to come, or an indication of what 40 years of Chiefs fandom has had to endure, or both?
Something that has recently made a splash in this posters twisted bean is the enigma that is Shaun Smith. While considering all the things that have seemingly made a difference in our team over the last couple of years, I began to wonder if Shaun, and his abrasive (yet sometimes humorus) persona was one of many necessary ingredients to turning around what many would agree was an abysmal team.
Shaun's history as an NFL player is like a road map for some crazy vacation. He was originally drafted as an FA by Dallas in 2003. He spent his entire rookie season on the Cowboys practice squad and then was waived the following August 31st and picked up off waivers the following day by the AZ Cards. That stint didn't last long at all as he was waived only 5 days later, to be picked up by the Saints a few days after that.
Shaun finally got on an active roster with the Saints and got his first start. Unfortunately, this gig didn't last long either as he was waived November 30th of the same year. Shaun got picked up off waivers (again) by the Bengals. he finally stuck somewhere. He stayed with them until March of 2007 when he signed as a resticted free agent with the Browns. HELLO ROMEO!
Interestingly this is also the first time (that I have seen although there may have been other reports prior to this) that Shaun showed his aggressive behavior. It was here that he reportedly punched Brady Quinn in the chops during an altercation in the locker room. This was subsequently confirmed by Browns TE Darrel Dinkins on a radio interview. Romeo and the team refused to speak about it, but it would return to the spotlight in the form of circumstancial evidence proving Shaun's proclivity as a trouble maker when he began his ascendance to sack master in KC. Sorry, I still find humor in this even at the same time that I would not condone the behavior if I thought it was done wantonly, for no reason other than satisfying his inner masochist.
Ultimately, Shaun was release by the Bengals in August of '09, picked up by the Lions, was cut in final cuts in September and resigned by the Bengals in December. In the interim, he played for the Las Vegas Locomotives of the UFL (who won their championship game). The following March of course, Smith came to the Chiefs. Whew! What a road this guy has had in only six years!
So just exactly what kind of attitude did Shaun bring with him to the Chiefs? I don't know. Do you remember this?
Shaun Smith Has Your Balls (via ChiefsGo81)
In consecutive weeks, he was accused by players from the opposing team of grabbing them in their private parts during play. Alex Mack of the Cleveland Browns made the first claim after the two teams' Week 2 matchup, followed by Anthony Davis of the San Francisco 49ers, who drew a penalty for retaliating against Smith in Week 3. Smith denied the allegations.[
Ok, so we know that Shaun had been accused of anti-social 'behavior' more than once. Based on his previous 'altercation' with Brady Quinn, many jumped immediately on the 'we don't want no dirty players in KC' bandwaggon. I found myself stuck in the middle. While the accusations seemed plausible given Shaun's previous antics, I just couldn't figure out why in the world a guy who has been dropped from NFL teams more often than a pick up line in a bar, would do something (repeatedly) that would jeopardize his shot at finding a home with a new team. I still can't.
via a.espncdn.com
So does that suggest that there may be something more to this than just Shaun being Shaun? Could it be that the fiendish Romeo Crennel was using EVERY possible advantage to MAKE other teams stand up and take notice? Is this all a part of the 'veteran presence' that is so important to the nucleus of a young team?
via www.blogcdn.com
This is pure speculation on my part and I am not suggesting it's truth or falsehood because I have nothing, nothing, to prove this theory. I throw it out there for consideration only. If it was the case though, it wouldn't be the first time that a team brought in a 'ringer' to accomplish a specific task. Haley sure didn't seem surprised on the sidelines during that game. I recall laughing at Haley during that exchange in the 49er game because Haley was on the sidelines yelling at Shaun to 'tone it down'. It didn't look like it was all that unexpected. It was almost as if he was waiting for it.
Maybe Shaun was someone that Romeo knew wouldn't have a problem shouldering this burden. Maybe, part of the 'unsuccessfulness' associated with the previous versions of the Chiefs had to do with how they were being perceived in the league. It had been quite some time since the Chiefs fielded a 'feared' defense. Could this have been a message to those opponents that, "This ain't yer Grandma's Chiefs"? It certainly made a splash in the league. I wonder just how many of those offensive lineman changed up their play when they knew that they were facing Shaun "The Nut Job" Smith (Vito Corleone would be proud)? It might not be kosher, but I'll bet that his little dog and pony show affected more than one lineman and how they played on any given Sunday.
via www.exposay.com
On another note, how would this kind of thing fit in with all the character discussions that have been made and regurgitated ad nauseum about what Haley and Pioli expect from their players? Would they dare to sponsor such a deviant plan as this? Wouldn't it fly in the face of all the 'team captain' talk about what kind of players they wanted in KC? Yet, Shaun was not pulled for his antic displays nor was he fined by the Chiefs (or ultimately the league I believe) because of his affinity for pulled pork (I apoligize).
Frankly, I would like to think that Shaun was indeed asked to 'mix it up' on Sunday's by his coaches. Here's a guy that has been at best a journeyman in his career (at worst a troublemaker looking for a paycheck). If he did indeed take one for the team and was considered a one year player for a particular purpose, I would say that Shaun has surprised some folks. He performed at a much higher level than almost anybody (except Romeo I'll bet) would have believed based on his previous stints with other teams. If he did take one for the team, he didn't let that screw up his attitude and become a problem that the Chiefs had to rid themselves of. Hell, he even got his own nickname. It's not every defensive player that can claim that kind of fame.
If the mantra for Pioli and the KGB is to 'do what it takes to win', I don't think there are very many fans who will argue with a Super Bowl trophy if indeed, one is accumulated based on that philosophy. Frankly, I can't see this type of thing as a regular part of what the Chiefs will do going forward. It may have been, however, one very important part of the Chiefs turning a corner from a team without respect in the league to one that commands attention and ultimately respect. That, my friends is not a bad thing. Shaun Smith deserves the fans respect for his part in the turnaround that he was a part of in 2010. I think he has it. He sure as hell, earned it. Welcome to KC 'Deep Freeze'. WE love you. Just keep your icy fingers off the popsicles.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Nice Post Aiken, I'm a big Smith fan
I don’t recall whether it was Dorsey or someone else earlier in the year that said it but they said that Smith brought a “nastiness” to the team and it was something that lacked from this defense. You nailed it on my exact opinion on what he did for this team.
In regards to the Quinn situation I mentioned this in my last post. “If you smack a Tiger in the face and he mauls you, I’m not blaming the Tiger”.
I don’t know what happened and neither does anyone who wasn’t in that lockeroom, but I won’t just jump to the conclusion that Smith was at fault because Quinn got beat-down.
Smith loved being a Chief and he loves KC, I hope we bring him back. He knows Crennel has his back and that lets him be himself, and that was a good thing for our defense this season.
The sterner the discipline, the greater the devotion.
not sure if that qualifies as "respect" though
seriously … The Nut Job … and “respect” in the same sentence? interesting thought though … I’d like to think that it wasn’t THE reason Smith was brought in
besides, I still like the other guy with the “cool” nickname … Joel “Ice Box” Thorman
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
The deep freeze has landed to his new garage
Right here in KC… We will resign him, play him and enjoy the nut jokes for a few more years….
Resign Tamba Hali, Resign S Smith and draft Roy Helu JR - RB - Nebraska
by Mas Cervezas on Jan 26, 2011 9:07 PM CST via mobile reply actions
What a great post & rec'd!
Shawn is one of my favorite players. He’s got character and a sense of humor. Neal Smith was one of my all-time favorites and some things that Shawn does reminds me of him. Like the time Neal stepped on another players hand. These guys provide a sense of toughness that adds strength to a team. I hope Shawn is here for the long term.
Shaun Smith used to stop by Gomers
in Midtown, near where I live. My neighbor works there, on 39th and broadway, and he would come in a few hours after sunday home games were over. He was always boisterous, and jovial, and would always buy Patron and boulevard, and whatever his lady wanted. He’d stay in there laughing and shouting and having a good time with everybody if they wanted to. I don’t know if he showed up after the raider or raven games, but I do know that he was always excited coming in, and genuinely loved being here, and having a few things in a routine he could count on…Gomers having his stuff in stock, gates not to far away, etc.
I hope he stays.
The team needs guys like Shawn.
I love the guy’s personality. He’s kindof a rebel and outspoken, but on a team where character and being politically correct, especially with the media, is so important for their image and what the team wants to portray, he is actually a breath of fresh air. You can tell he is very well liked by his teammates, and although Haley can’t publicly condone some of his behaviors, he tends to display a smile when Shawn’s name is mentioned in a press conference. I don’t know if the “nut cracking” was something that was planned, or not, but the reaction seemed to be more of humor than anything, except from the victims of the act. If it sent somewhat of a message, then great. The league didn’t act on it, and it didn’t end up being a big issue. It did though, get press, and I’m sure some players may have had their focus changed to “keeping both hands on the ball(s”. For some reason this guy plays for Romeo, and that’s what is important. He makes our defense better, and can play NT or DE, and yeah, even fullback. He also helps make a game that is so intense, and filled with so much pressure to consistently perform, a little bit more fun for his teammates, and has turned into a real fan favorite. You can’t help but like the guy, unless you are in that pile!
There once was a man from Nantucket......Nevermind.
He's a slightly above average player
But he is a very important guy to the team. He seems to be a heart guy, and players feed off of that. Plus, it keeps the talented youngsters playing hard. Pay the man.
We're the same team as last year, except incredibly better, and with new players.
I agree
I personally would like to see him playing NT more often for Edwards and letting Jackson take the snaps at LDE.
But Smith is a good rotational guy who brought our team a lot more than we thought he would
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Exonorated?
Hard to forget that this is the same man who referred to Chad Johnson with a homosexual slur via Twitter.
What has really really bothered me during the playoffs has been the BS talk from sports commentators about the “redemption” of Big Ben and Mike Vick all because they played well this season. I know this probably comes as a surprise to the Chris Bermans, Tom Jacksons, etc. of the world, but playing football well does NOT redeem you for past transgressions and make u a better person all of a sudden. Same with Shaun Smith, being a “nasty” player who punches teammates, and uses derogatory slurs on public forums shouldn’t be considered an “important” player, especially considering his age, as you would think a man of his age would have grown up by now. He can easily become a negative influence on this young, impressionable team and despite the fact that he hasn’t in one season doesn’t negate the possiblility.
My hope is that NT is addressed quickly, and Smith is either let go in free agency or signed for a very short term contract with minimal guarantees.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 1:29 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I agree on one hand and not the other.
The two quarterbacks you reference to are not people I would want to live next door to. They have broken serious laws or have been accused more than once of breaking serious laws. I do have a problem with saying that Smith could be a “negative influence on this young team”, Foofball is not a sissy sport. It is a rough and tough game played by rough and tough people. I don’t have a problem with “slurs” or anything else he says or does as long as he does not break any laws. We still have free speech in this free nation. 99% of the players make slur remarks, just not public. He is outspoken and what you see is what you get. Not so with the two quarterbacks you refer to or a host of other players in the NFL. And I agree with the slur he made about Johnson, so I guess that makes me a negative influence in the fan base. So what?
So nothing
Ur “influence” in this fan base means absolutely nothing. No one will think twice about what u think, not to be offensive towards u, but that’s just the truth.
Secondly, if Smith punched Cassel, u wouldn’t be singing the same tune. It may not matter what his impact on Cleveland’s locker room now that he is on this team, but it doesn’t change what he could be. He is outspoken, insulting, boisterous, and insensitive; u can be “nasty” on the field without all that crap off the field.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 8:38 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Nor Urs.
If Cassel had it coming, I would not have a problem with it. You don’t think there are other Chiefs players that are insulting, boisterous and insensitive? You might want to change sports, maybe bowling. Talk about insensitve, how would you like it if someone says they hope you lose your job, get cut because you are insensitive?
I WOULD lose my job if i used the same slurs publically
And so would u. It’s not about hoping, it just is what it is. I don’t need to change any sport just because I believe u can be good at that sport u play AND be professional/sensitive to people of this world/mature in the way u handle yourself. If that’s above what u hold important, then we will just have to agree to disagree, and you can go enjoy this sport how u see fit, as will I.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 9:00 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
This is not a sensitive sport.
That’s just the way it is, same with boxing or any other full contact sport. The athletes do not all come from sensitive backgrounds, some come from the streets and some don’t. I just find it very hipicrital when someone says they want someone to lose there job because the person is insensitive regardless how effective they are in the workplace. You are trying to put these people on the same intellectual level as your profession, and it ain’t happening because the job description is much different. They don’t care whether or not a person has a degree, they care about performance on the field of battle. In your profession, they don’t care whether or not you played football, but they probably care whether or not you have education and how you perform in your workplace.
Once again, u hold your standards, ill hold mine
Were not talking about soldiers in wartime meeting about their enemy here, Dan. Were talking about a football player and it doesn’t matter who or what u do, when u use slurs of ANY nature, u are in the wrong, bottom line, and for u to try continue to justify it just establishes that we are operating in two completely different levels of social acceptance and professionalism, and there really is no point in arguing this anymore.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 11:15 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
*tweeting about their enemy
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 11:28 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
You don't think it is war on football field?
I beg to differ. It is hand to hand combat without weapons and its the same in all contact sports. Yes, we are not going to agree. And you think that some of the other Chiefs players don’t use any slurs? Give me a break. Slurs are made by coaches, players, politicians and people in all walks of life. Does it make it right? Not always, unless the shoe fits, then maybe its not a slur. A slur to one person may not be a slur to someone else.
Yawn
“Everyone’s doing it, so it’s ok”. Good attitude to have, dan
I personally don’t take offense to anything that Smith has said, but I see that it is offensive to a certain group of our society, and as human beings, it’s wrong to use it in a negative conotation, and just plain stupid to use it in a public forum. Smith has suffered no consequences that we as fans know of, maybe he never will, but I see it as a signal to officially be worried about his next mistake and how dumb it might be. Is it enough to cut ties with him based on that worry? Maybe, maybe not. There really is no right or wrong in the my or your feelings generated by what’s been said by Smith or any other person for that matter.
I’ve stated my thoughts, you’ve stated yours and once again, we will agree to disagree. Moving on…
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
I'm one, Falcon too from what I can tell
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I think maybe I'm not being clear enough.
I agree that it is wrong to say and do things that offend others. My point is there are some that don’t actually know any better for one reason or another. Maybe, not always, but maybe a person should be given a warning and a chance to redeem themselves before cutting them or firing them. The man has not been fined by the NFL as far as I know. I am sure he has been lectured on this by the Chiefs organization and hopefully it does not happen again. But cutting the guy or firing the guy on the spot may be going overboard when a disiplinary action could fix it.
right on, I definitely would not fire him, that is retarded (see what I did there...)but seriously, it is retarded...
just remind him that he not only represents himself but also the entire organization…
I don’t have a problem with Smith, and I do think some people are way to easily offended…and it is second hand offended, it isn’t like Smith called you anything…
First of all, you throwin' too many big words at me, and because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect...
True, and I agree about the context
Like I said above, I’m not offended by what he said, and I wouldn’t call it “2nd hand offended”, as I’m just stating that it would be or could be derogatory to other groups within our own society, which again, leads to overall negative views about the person who said it’s character and demeanor towards all walks of life.
I bet no one is making these same defenses for Mel Gibson :-)
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
I agree with you on both counts.
My only disagreement is punishment. I believe most everyone should be given a second chance. Mel has had alot more than that. People come from different neighborhoods where some slang might be the norm. Others might be offended in a different neighborhood. So if that person can be taught not to use such language that offends, then he should be reprimanded and maybe given a second chance That is not making excuses for bad behavior, it is addressing that bad behavior,and hopefully ending with a positive win win situation.
I concur with you, Dan
I think we better understand each other in the sense that I don’t have a lot of tolerance for behavior of this nature, whether right or wrong. I can see giving the guy chances to correct his ways and better understand the ramifications of using slurs like this in a negative way. I just don’t have too much patience for it, and the point you make about where people grow up at is very understandable; however, I look at it in the same light (not the same “crime” obviously) of Mike Vick saying he “grew up around dog fighting” and this is “all he knew”. Ignorance of this is not an excuse, but making it clear and giving the person a chance to better themselves is very understandable, and it makes me rethink how intolerant of these type of things I might be.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 28, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You are a good man Falcon.
No question about it.
dan, how do you or or we know FOR SURE how many chances or times Smith has had on this or whatever else?
we don’t … first time WITH THE CHIEFS perhaps, ok fine … but unless we know someone’s full history, we don’t know that he hasn’t done the same obnoxious thing again and again …
… thing is, if you keep excusing it and passing it off lightly, then nobody takes responsibility for doing it, and they keep repeating it over and over
make sense?
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
No, it doesn't. I have not seen any.
Tell me where you have seen it.
precisely, Falcon
I bet no one is making these same defenses for Mel Gibson
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
dan, I can buy that
sort of …
“don’t know any better” is BS and that’s what i don’t/can’t buy … these guys may be loud and obnoxious, but they aren’t entirely stupid and uneducated … they DO “know better”
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
How do you know what they know?
I don’t think you have ever walked in their shoes.
I am late to the party!
Congrats UPS! You don’t know how much I have been rooting for you in your job search. I couldn’t be happier for you.
dan
war on the football field? please … it’s a game, a game they get PAID for, but a game and a sport nonetheless … and win or lose, after the game those players shake hands with eath other, share a few laughs and wish each other wll for the next game
and considering the majority of those guys have a college education theyy know better than to use the derogatory slurs (usually) … I’m with Falcon here, dan … wrong is wrong regardless of who you are or where you came from or what you do
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
by upamtn on Jan 27, 2011 9:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Im with dan here.
but I see that it is offensive to a certain group of our society, and as human beings, it’s wrong to use it in a negative conotation
Words that offend people (not actions or inciting riots) are not inherently wrong. There is nothing wrong about them and we don’t have any responsibility “as humans” to try not to offend anyone.
If you are offended by something I say… great. It’s your right to be offended. However, it’s my right to say it anyway. There’s nothing inherently wrong with offending someone. No one has the right NOT to be offended. Political correctness will destroy this country before it actually does it any good.
wrong is wrong regardless of who you are or where you came from or what you do
I think you need to change that from “wrong” to Socially unacceptable. – Those aren’t the same thing. Saying something that offends someone else is not ‘wrong’, in any way shape or form. It might be socially unacceptable, but its not wrong.
And it’s certainly not socially unacceptable no matter who you are, or where you come from. Every society has it’s own standards about what is or is not considered acceptable.
For instance: Currently (completely different from any other time) it is socially unacceptable in the majority of the U.S. to say something in a public forum that might offend someone.
It’s not wrong to say it… and its stupid that it’s socially unacceptable. This country was built on freedom of speech, religion, and freedom from oppression. I refuse to trade away my freedom of speech just because you or anyone else doesn’t like what I have to say.
If you don’t like what I have to say… that’s your problem; not mine. And it’s certainly not ‘wrong’ for me to say it.
Actions infringing on someone else’s rights? That’s a whole different ball of wax.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 27, 2011 11:47 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
In Japan...
It’s socially unacceptable to get up and leave a theater before the credits are finished rolling.
The first time I saw a movie in Japan I was somewhat stunned. The movie ended, the credits started rolling, and no one got up to leave. They stayed…applauding, no less….until the credits had completely finished scrolling the screen. Some gave a standing ovation…..to a screen.
I am told by my relatives in Japan (Mom is first generation born in the US) that it is considered not only rude, but offensive to all the people involved in making the movie to walk of the theater without reading the credits….
Obviously whats socially unacceptable in one place is not the same as another.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 27, 2011 11:53 PM CST up reply actions
Pussification of America...
First of all, you throwin' too many big words at me, and because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect...
Racial, sexual orientation, handicap slurs aren't wrong to you???
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
Not so much...all about context...
First of all, you throwin' too many big words at me, and because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect...
I’ll cede that, but again, in a public forum, it becomes more about the willingness to use the respective slur with total disregard than it is the actual slur, in my opinion. I think it shows stupidity and sets yourself up to be seen as having a “problem” with the group of people the slur refers to
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
agreed...publicly using certain words whether obscene, vulgar or a "slur"...
is unprofessional and shows a lack of vocabulary and/or judgment.
First of all, you throwin' too many big words at me, and because I don't understand them, I'm gonna take 'em as disrespect...
Totally agree.
The person in questioned should be given a warning, and if he does not learn from that warning, gotten rid of. People make mistakes, and that is the point I was trying to make. Sometimes dumb can be fixed, stupidity can not.
Fact of the matter is, there's a ton of people that don't see that dreaded F-word as a slur
Would it have been better if he called Chad a homosexual on twitter? “Shuttup, homosexual!”
Carries the same connotation. Is that as offensive to you?
R-E-S-T-E-C-P! Find out what ya mean to me.. R-E-S-C-E-T-P! ... 10-6 motha@$#%!! You know how'ta spell it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK6J_zw29RY (mild cursing. ahem.)
Yes, absolutely
If it’s used to convey that being homosexual is a negative thing. It’s not negative to be a homosexual, any kind of race or handicap and the term should never be used in a derogatory manner. There’s really no other way to look at it, in my opinion
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
Calling someone a...
…cripple… is not necessairly a slur. it’s just a descriptive word.
Handicaped or Crippled denote a physical ailment.
They aren’t Handi-Capable… no matter how much they want me to call them that. If they are offended by the word cripple…and I used it to describe them, not slander, that’s their problem.
Steve is that guy over there by the green truck. He’s the big black guy with the stupid looking shoes…. That’s not a slur. It’s a descriptor. African American is more insulting than ‘black’ as far as I’m concerned. If you’re born and raised in the US, and don’t have duel citizenship in Africa… You’re not African American.. You’re American. You also happen to be black (as a descriptor).
There’s nothing inherently wrong with the word gay, or fag, or black, or jap, or redskin, etc etc.. it’s the conotation that makes it offensive.
Even if you do say something that offends me…. I’m STILL not going to decry your right to say it. I have the same freedom of speech as you do, and I am more than capable of shrugging you and your comments off… or refuting them.
I do not buy into the notion that anyone has the right not to be offended. Were slowly turning into a country where people are LOOKING for something to be offended by, so that they can over react to it. Call me a Jap if you want. I don’t care. If I believe you’re a fool, a bigot, or an idiot…then I’ll just ignore you. I put no stock in the words of a shithead, and I’m not so fragile that I’m going to worry about what you think.
In short…… Discount them as an idiot, and move on about your day. There’s no reason to go apeshit or it, or let it bother you for more than 2 seconds of your life. Thicken your skin and stop letting the idiocy of someone else control your self esteem.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 28, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
No, you're missing the point
I can say the words with no meaning behind them and shouldn’t expect someone to be offended. But putting the NEGATIVE connotation on those words, as in using the word “cripple” or “fag” or any racial slur to invoke a negative thought towards that person and/or the group that word infurs is most definitely a problem, no matter how you shake it out. I get what you are saying, that they are only words, and them alone mean nothing, but the feeling and meaning behind them and how they are used mean alot.
And my apologies, but just ignoring those words just perpetuates the situation. Yes, I find comedic attempts at downplaying the meaning of those words hilarious and understand their points of how stupid using those words really are, but it is attempting to do exactly what I am talking about: showing the world that those negative slurs are offensive and shouldn’t be used, as the world has moved past it and must be accepting of all people, creeds, orientations, etc. (at least publically, and hopefully privately as well). They just do it in a much funnier way than I do. Maybe discounting these words is like ignoring a bully, if you don’t respond to them, it takes away their meaning, but again, it doesn’t change the fact that some people need to be shown and taught that they are not right to use.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
forget comedic relief...
Invoking negative thoughts does not infringe upon anyones rights.
Taking away freedom of speech does.
There are Nazi’s to this day that still print newsletters and propaganda and distribute it. Although I don’t agree with them or their ideals I DO support their right to say what they say. It’s not my place to limit their right to free speech.
Oppression of thought or speech an only lead down a slippery slope. Once you begin taking away someones right to free speech based on nothing but protecting you from being offended, you open the door to allowing someone to do the exact same thing to you.
Just because you or someone else is offended by a slur, or a hurtful word does not give you the right to demand that no one be allowed to say them.
I’m offended by most religions and the audacity they have to tell people that their way is the only way, and that If I don’t put my faith in the existence of a mystical space man and his zombie son then I’ll spend eternity in hell. - But…. No matter how offended I am be the spread of their craziness, or being labeled a heathen…etc.. They STILL have the right to say what they say. both freedom of speech,and religion give them that right. — It’s not my place to take those rights away from them, OR force my beliefs of right and wrong onto them.
The only way to protect my own freedom, is to protect everyones……even if I don’t like what they have to say.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 29, 2011 3:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No one said Smith broke any Constitutional rights
However, to say that “saying what you want should have no consequences” is very short sided. There are MANY consequences for using derogatory slurs in a public setting, especially with your place of employment. Luckily for Smith, he’s employed by a company that is clearly inclined to overlook these transgressions if he performs well enough.
However, your “freedom of speech” goes only so far, unless you want to be an unemployed drain on this great American society simply b/c you choose to exercise your freedom of speech in whatever way you feel like. Maybe it’s not breaking a law to offend someone with derogatory, negative slurs, but it will cost you employment (for most companies outside of the NFL).
Furthermore, no one is calling for Smith to be punished in a court of law b/c he didn’t break any actual laws of the land. However, his words still are what they are: a negative conotation in reference to a group of people of this country. Everyone has the right to say them, while everyone also has the right to socially respond negatively to the people that have enough disregard for the meaning behind the word to say them publically. The “right to say” those negative words STILL does not make it “right” in terms of how it affects other people. Again, it’s not breaking a law to say them, and whether you want to call it “socially acceptable” or whatever, it most definitely DOES have consequences
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
If a writer for a sports journal used the same derogatory term that Smith used on Twitter, is there any doubt he would never write for any publication again?
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
One mistake
There are MANY consequences for using derogatory slurs in a public setting, especially with your place of employment.
By definition, a work place is not a public setting. It is on private property making it a private setting.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Why do you think Facebook checking has become big in job applicants?
I’m not speaking specifically on using slurs while at your job, I’m saying that employers can see your public forums, such as FB, Twitter, MySpace (is that even still functioning???) etc. and determine if you would be a good fit for hire, or possibly fire. Many companies stipulate that you must maintain a level of professionalism and represent the company you are employed positively at all times. Again, seen in my example: if a public, well known journalist used the same term, whether in an article, Twitter, FB, whatever, would he be allowed to write for the publication that employs him? Or any other for that matter?
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
None of which has
anything whatever to do with his right to say what he wants.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Bingo!!!!!
That’s the point I’m making! I have not once said (at least I don’t think :-) that he can’t say what he wants, I’m just arguing that there can be consequences b/c of the negativity that those words can infer. TexasChief implied that freedom of speech means no consequences, I was arguing that there most defiintely can be
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
Im not implying that there are no consequesces
Not at all…
I’m implying that the consequences will be his to face. He will have made his bed and will have to lay in it.
My main point is that what he said was not..in any way “wrong”. There was nothing worng with him speaking his mind. And just as he has the right to say what he wants… you and anyong else have the right to rebutt/refute his ideas.
However, the concept that no one should ever say what he said because its ‘wrong’ is just not true. It’s not wrong, it just happens to offend some people. If it ofends enough people, in a wide enough audience and those people choose to stop supporting him…. he may have consequences to face. And that will be his problem. BUT.. there should never be any law taking away his right to say them. And .. the things he said are not inherently wrong.
People have their own moral compass. Just because one person thinks it’s wrong…doesn’t make it so. Same goes for 1,000,000 people. There may be public pressure consequences to pay for what you say… but that’s the risk you take for speaking you mind. As long as there are no legal consequences…… because THAT would be wrong.
Another example. I live in San Antonio Texas. ‘Mexican’ is considered non-PC. Across most of the country ‘Hispanic/Latino’ is the preferred term. I have no clue where the country Hispania is, and if you are a Mexican citizen then you are, in fact, Mexican. That’s just a simple fact. — But take it a step further: Around here ’Hispanic/Latino" is considered a deregatory term by some people. (In particular, those with money). They believe that Hispanic/Latino is associated with poor people, and they take offense when you refer to them as such.
“Mexican” is not wrong, neither are Hispanic, or Latino. Some people are ‘ofended’ by those terms and consider them non-PC or even mean spirited. I don’t have the time, patience, or give a crap enough to placate their fragile emotions. I use whatever term that I use at the time. If they are offended, maybe I lose a customer. That’s the consequence, and I’m willing to deal with that. What I’m not willing to do is put up with a bunch of whining and bitching about a word.
Offensive or not…. the word doesn’t hurt anyone unless they CHOOSE to be hurt by it. It’s plenty easy to shrug your shoulders, discount the speaker as ignorant, or moronic..and go about your day. It’s not ‘wrong’ in any way. People are just plain too damn sensative about crap and need to stop worrying about what someone says, and start worrying about something that actually matters.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 31, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
And also
That while Smith or anyone has the right to say what they want, it doesn’t make it “right” in terms of society and the negative response in the form of litlle ole me saying that I don’t think Smith should be a part of the teams future, or getting “fired” from your job, or being “shunned” by the public you were spouting those words off in. The freedom to say what you want is still harmful to the overall good of society, in my opinion, and restraint should be used regarding sexual orientation, race, handicap, etc.
I think you and I are in agreeance abou that, but like you said, just disagree on how to handle that person and the level of “discipline” or “consequences” that should go into it. Maybe I’m being too hard on the “Sackmaster”, but luckily, I don’t control his fate
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
Actually this is the ONE thing we seem to disagree about:
The freedom to say what you want is still harmful to the overall good of society, in my opinion, and restraint should be used regarding sexual orientation, race, handicap, etc.
Any harm done is due emotional. I won’t deny that it is indeed harm..but I will refute the idea that it’s harmful to the overall good of society.
Trying to force ‘restraint’ is akin to trying to limit freedom of speech. You may think that restraint should be used, but someone else may not. That is the very idea of freedom of speech:
We have the right to say what we want (within certain extreme case positions – inciting a riot etc). The harm comes not in what is said…but in trying to limit what other people can say. In order for you to have teh freedom to argue AGAINST those words….you MUST gaurentee everyone else’s right to say them. Once you take it upon yourself (or a group of 1,000,000 people take it on themselves) to tell others what they can, and cannot say…. you risk losing your ability to speak your mind freely in another situation.
The sword cuts both ways. You don’t have to like what other people say. But you cannot limit their rights to say it… no matter how offensive you think it is. Sometime down the road someone else may turn it around and try to do the same thing to you.
The harm comes from limiting speech, not from hearing something that may be offensive.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 31, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
it's a fine line between "freedom to spout offensive words" and "infringement of rights"
Actions infringing on someone else’s rights? That’s a whole different ball of wax.
I’ll contend that I have a right NOT to hear you (or anyone) mouth obscenities about my religion or race or what-have-you … you calim that you have the RIGHT to say it, even if it’s offensive to me or others, and I say that no, you do NOT have that “right” … not unless I have the “right” to break both your knees with my baseball bat when you DO offend me with your slurs
see? at what point does your “right” to be offensive impede upon my “right” not to hear your crap?
you think you have a RIGHT to play crap rap music so loud I can hear your car vibrate 3 miles away … I think I have a RIGHT not to HAVE to hear your crap rap … that is, your rights end where my ears begin … and that holds true for loud, obnoxious music as much as it does for offensive language
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Freedom of speech protects my right to say what I want ..
Nothing protects you against being offended, and nothing should.
Because to enforce a low giving you the right not to be offended, you would have to take away everyones right to free speech…including your own.
Im not willing to trade my rights in exchange of sparing your emotions. And I’ll never agree with the idea that giving up my freedom of speech is a good idea. Especially if th only reason I’m being asked to give i up is so someone somewhere won’t have their feelings hurt and become offended.
If you don’t want to ‘hear my crap’ then go back in your house, put in earplugs, turn the channel, etc. But if were in a public place then yo don’t have the right not to hear my crap. Unless…..
As in your loud rap music example…. I am breaking a law/ordinance concerning reasonable volume/decibel levels. In which case I AM infringing upon your rights, and you are protected by the law.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Sorry Ups
YOu are wrong here. Everyone has a right to say what they want, but no one has a right to be heard. That would insinuate that you are forcing people to listen. That is just another form of having your rights infringed upon.
Actually you do have a right not to hear anything that you don’t want to, when you are in your own private space. People need to remember that public places are just that, PUBLIC. That means that everyone in a public space can say what they want. You have a right not to hear it by moving on down the street. If your right not to hear what was being said supersceeded the right of free speech, then the free speech would have to forcibly be stopped. When one faction can force other factions in a public venue to change behavior then it is no longer truly a free space. You example of playing crap rap very loud in a car is a poor example. Actually, many municipalities have laws regulating how loud certain things can be, but they are hard to enforce. Disturbing the peace can take many forms, and it is a law that is on the books almost anywhere.
at what point does your "right" to be offensive impede upon my "right" not to hear your crap?
Truth be known, you do not have a right not to hear anybodies crap. What you do have is protection under the law to not e subjected to someone who is so loud or messy or whatever that they are precluding you from your enjoyment of that same public space. When it comes to your own private space though, just turn the channel! :)
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
So as long as Smith wasn't shouting the word "faggot" in a public place, it's ok b/c it's his right?
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
It is his right to say anything that he pleases
just as it is your right to ignore him.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
And you don't think he would have been arrested for "disturbing the peace"???
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
Shouting!!!!!!
:-)
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
This really has nothing to do with my point, BTW
just playing devil’s advocate right now in terms of “constitutional rights” :-)
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
I know
We have gone far afield from my post about Mr. Smith.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Haha. You got what you wanted Aiken.
Lots of discussion. I got to hand it to you for sharing your thoughts & knowledge. I will tell you that I sure like seeing people like Falcon out in the management field. I think he is a man who has shown that he is his own man and is not afraid to learn or think about things outside the box. This is not a black & white world that we live in by any means, JMHO.
Aye..
We have strayed a long way from the intended topic…
And I too am happy to have critical thinkers in positions of authority.
There’s nothing wrong with sticking to you beliefs or your morals.. As long as you try to enforce them on others.
I AM offended by the term ‘faggot’ BTW…. Let me just make that clear. It’s offensive and it’s hurtful, and it’s intended to cause emotional distress. BUT it’s a tool of the ignorant. It showcases just how poor his education or upbringing were, and society will put pressure on him to at least hide his ignorance behind closed doors.
However, I still support his right to say it if he would like to, and I would never suggest that we should try to change that.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 31, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions
What if.....
I’ll contend that I have a right NOT to hear you (or anyone) mouth obscenities about my religion or race or what-have-you … you calim that you have the RIGHT to say it, even if it’s offensive to me or others, and I say that no, you do NOT have that "right
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 31, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
What if....
I’ll contend that I have a right NOT to hear you (or anyone) mouth obscenities about my religion or race or what-have-you … you calim that you have the RIGHT to say it, even if it’s offensive to me or others, and I say that no, you do NOT have that "right
… It’s YOUR religion and it’s assertations that I find offensive? What if I I am truly emotionally distressed by the very thing that you consider to be your ‘core beliefs’?
Do I then get to “have the right” NOT to be offended by ‘listenting to your crap’ ? — The answer is a resounding NO.. as it should be. And the minute you give people the right ’NOT to be offended" then you immediatly lose your right to discuss your religion in public…. because I find it offensive, and therefore have the right not to be offended by it.
You cannot grant people the right “NOT” to be offended without taking away your own right to free speech. Those to ideas are diametrically opposed. In order to gaurentee the right to free speech… you have to gaurentee it for everyone…. Not just the people you argee with.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 31, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
War on the football field.
That would make a good fan post. Yes, it is war. They strategize offensive and defensive plans before every game. The war is in the trenches trying to crash the line of defense or the line of offense. To conquer a victory in the end zone. Yes, it is a game there are no weapons, just hand to hand combat. Yes, they shake hands when it is over and there are no casualties but there are injuries and both sides hope for the best. When the game (or war) is over, friendships remain in place, respect and honor to the opposition usually remains no matter who wins.
Terrell Suggs DID liken this year's Ravens/Steelers playoff to "Armaggedon"
No, it’s not ‘war’ — people aren’t dying, but that doesn’t stop players from giving it that war mentality.
It’s coached that way by a lot of coaches and by a lot of players it’s played that way.
R-E-S-T-E-C-P! Find out what ya mean to me.. R-E-S-C-E-T-P! ... 10-6 motha@$#%!! You know how'ta spell it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK6J_zw29RY (mild cursing. ahem.)
I, along with Pioli and Haley, im willing to bet, value professionalism and maturity, Smith doesnt represent that very well. He wont be a part of the future of this team
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 8:41 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Pioli has also said...
It’s how you treat the janitor, and the guy washing your uniform, and the parking lot attendant, and the common fans of this team that ultimately define that true character. From that standpoint, I’ve heard nothing but how nice of a guy he is to be around. He lifts the spirits of thosee around him, including his teammates. And, clearly, he’s all about football.
Despite a few infractions that you really have no background history of (other than the Nut Jobs), he actually exudes the type of character that’s desired for this football team. And, speaking to the Testicle Chronicles, Pioli also had what was labeled as one of the dirtiest players in the league as one of the leaders of his Superbowl-winning Patriots in Rodney Harrison.
R-E-S-T-E-C-P! Find out what ya mean to me.. R-E-S-C-E-T-P! ... 10-6 motha@$#%!! You know how'ta spell it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK6J_zw29RY (mild cursing. ahem.)
Very good points AS
I still think that there is some misunderstanding in the masses about what the character issue is really all about. Nicely stated. The Sport is, after all, a business that must profit. If you have a few ‘colorful’ players on your team helping you profit, not much is going to be said unless they get out of control. As I said earlier, Pioli and Haley are way too good and keeping things under control to let that happen.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
U assume that they will keep it under control
I’m more for avoiding the possibility all together, that is the fundamental difference between u and I on this issue, aiken. Smith has shown the propensity for dumb decisions, which could very well become even number decisions; avoid it if necessary. Maybe it wasn’t necessary for winning purposes last season or even this coming season, but it will be necessary soon enough.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 11:25 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
*dumber decisions (damn smartphone:-)
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 11:41 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
You'
R-E-S-T-E-C-P! Find out what ya mean to me.. R-E-S-C-E-T-P! ... 10-6 motha@$#%!! You know how'ta spell it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK6J_zw29RY (mild cursing. ahem.)
by ArrowSpread on Jan 27, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
You’re kind of making assumptions also in that he won’t mature with this team, under stricter guidelines, with a more family-like atmosphere, where teammates actually like each other. And, again, what you’re seeing as dumb decisions and unacceptable as the Pioli way, Pioli himself seems to not have too much a problem with as a 1st offense, as long as its clear that it doesn’t happen again.
In regards to what is socially acceptable in your comment above, I’m sure what’s socially acceptable in a lockerroom within a sports team differs greatly from what is socially acceptable in your office. It’s just not the same environment. I guarantee there’s a lot of F words, and N words, and everything being thrown around. It only becomes a problem when instead of it being said over the phone, or person to person, it’s said on Twitter and everyone else has a hissy-fit like they don’t use crass language when the boss aint listenin.
R-E-S-T-E-C-P! Find out what ya mean to me.. R-E-S-C-E-T-P! ... 10-6 motha@$#%!! You know how'ta spell it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK6J_zw29RY (mild cursing. ahem.)
by ArrowSpread on Jan 27, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
Again, DUMB decision
You just enforced my point exactly, arrow. You might say something when the boss is not around, and it makes you ok, but if you publically say it in front of the boss, then you are just dumb. Those kind of decisions is what makes me weary of Smith. I hear you, Dan and Aiken talking about “locker room talk” and “player mentality” like it just supercedes making an a$$ of yourself in public, in front of the “boss” and not expect to have any consequences.
As a manager myself, slurs and derogatory terms used towards another person, regardless of the situation is a terminable offense, and is very much frowned upon outside of this “locker room mentality”, so what goes on behind closed doors is one person’s business, but once it’s made public, there’s no amount of “hissy fits” that can make it anymore incorrect and socially unacceptable. And you know just as well as I do that the “N” word wouldn’t be used in a derogatory, racial slur context by anyone in that locker room, so please don’t try to make it sound like it would be just to try to justify anything
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
At the end of the day, though, how much of an ass is he making out of himself?
Who is making the fuss about it? Hadn’t heard anything in the way of consequences from the guys who preach character religiously (Haley/Pioli). Perhaps his character towards guys not named Chad OchoCinco and Brady Quinn supercedes his use of the F word one time in a public forum and a punch in the mouth of a guy that may have deserved it two years ago.
He’s not a lockerrom cancer, the community seems to like him, he appears to be a good father to his kids, and he’s been a mentor for some of our rookies. The other stuff pales in comparison to me and can be overlooked. Shrug.
R-E-S-T-E-C-P! Find out what ya mean to me.. R-E-S-C-E-T-P! ... 10-6 motha@$#%!! You know how'ta spell it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK6J_zw29RY (mild cursing. ahem.)
Actually, we agree on avoiding the possibility
It just comes down to what I would find acceptable risk versus what you would. I think it is a matter of degree. I would not be in favor of bringing in TO, for example, because the guy has proven many times over that he is a problem and a distraction that our team in particular doesn’t need. Shaun just hasn’t caused that kind of problem yet (unless he did in Cleveland and that was why he was let go—we don’t know that for sure) so I am willing to let him have enough rope to hang himself if necessary. I have done this very kind of thing professionally in the past. Sometimes they do hang themselves and once in a while somebody becomes a pretty good team member. As their boss, you just have to keep an eye on them. Shaun is easily enough removed from the equation if he goes to far outside the lines. I think he knows that and won’t be too eager to push those boundaries. If he does, the hammer falls.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Fair enough
I don’t have that amount of rope to give out :-) I work in an enviroment that 2nd chances for something as severe as a personal slur are VERY rare. I relate to that, as it can put someone’s character and social deviance on display pretty quicky, and personally, don’t want to work with someone either that insensitive or that dumb.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
The only trouble is
that just because that person is as you say, insensitive or dumb about how to treat others, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they can’t or won’t or don’t want to be a good team member. I have managed people all my life and I can tell you that when you enforce the rules to the letter of the law, sometimes you make a mistake.
I completely understand your plight though, if you are in a corporate scenario you have to cover your butt with both hands and sit down to make sure you are safe. You know your work atmosphere better than I so i am not going to argue with you about that, but as a manager, if that dumb, insensitive person increases the size of my bonus check, I’m all about some diversity training real quick. Managers work to damn hard not to have the best people on their teams. Where is the line between being able to have free speech and being able to lose your job because of something you said? This is just an outgrowth of all the political correctness that has taken over corporate america because of litigation happy lawyers. It is unfortunate because it just drives the wedge between these people deeper instead of allowing some understanding to develop between ideals that don’t agree.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
by Aiken_Drum on Jan 27, 2011 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Same here Aiken, except I'm now retired.
There are no black and white rules for everything in the workplace. Everything has to be put in its place and understood for what they really are before making critical decisions on people. Some people are dumb and can learn from mistakes, if they can’t, they will usually be let go. But all things must be considered before making such decisions due to the very fact that you could be getting rid of a very important part of your group. A person who may not be politically correct may also be an inspiring figure in the workplace. A person who can be taught the rights and wrongs and could turn out to be a winner thus making you a winner and the company as well.
Are you letting your angst
over the pundits general lack of concern for a players character shade your opinion when it comes to Shaun? I don’t think that you can quite put Shaun in the same category as Ben and Mike. What those two have done/been accused of are a bit more serious under the law than anything that Shaun has been involved in. A scuffle in a locker room and some on field ‘nastiness’ do not equate to rape or the torture and killing of animals in a dog fighting ring. I agree with you on the fact that playing football does not redeem you for past transgressions, but then what does? The fact is these guys are going to play football until they get fired or are forced to retire. Whether or not that meets with your own moral code isn’t a factor in what those guys report to the fans.
As far as Shaun being a ‘grownup’, well I guess you have to consider that all Pro Football players are men playing a kids game. What does that make them? Immature? Some are. Some never grow out of what is commonly referred to as a ‘locker room’ mentality. That mentality got that name for a reason. As far as being a negative influence, I feel confident that Haley/Crennel and Pioli have that well under control. These guys will not let a cancer in the locker room get out of control, they are just too good at what they do.
Who said anything about being exonerated? My point was that his influence may have been an important part of the Chiefs turning around last year. I think many fans are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when it comes to his foibles from last season. So far at least, he hasn’t punched anybody in the mouth in KC. Shaun’s a football player. Football is a tough game, requiring the use of brawn as much as brain. Guys that live in that world must maintain an arrogant, aggressive, even ruthless attitude about what they do. Some are noisy about it and others are quiet, but they all take pleasure in hitting thier opponent. Shaun is one of those guys you like having on the team because, frankly, he won’t take a lot of shit. He just isn’t afraid to dish a little out now and then. If he truely did step over the line, why wasn’t he punished? That brashness of attitude is an advantage on some Sunday’s. If you are looking for W’s, sometimes you have to use all your advantages.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Why wait and find out?
We aren’t signing TO or Moss anytime soon despite what kind of production they can bring to this team b/c of this very reason of being a “cancer”. Maybe Smith isn’t on the same level of breaking laws, but clearly what he does and the way he is seems to go against worrying of consequences, which is the line that needs to be drawn between brashness/arrogance and plain stupidity. I can agree that Smith on the field may have been important to our defensive success this season, but what he represents is nothing this team needs off the field. It sends the wrong message that if u perform well enough u won’t have to worry about ur actions off the field, which is why I related smith to big Ben and Vick.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 8:55 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't know if I agree with that
I read the article that quoted Thomas Jones in talking about Shaun. It mentioned something along the lines of Shaun egging on players in the locker room by giving them nicknames and talking smack about them. Jones, as I recall, did not seem to take offense to it, rather he embraced it and played Shaun’s game with him. That’s what being part of a team is about. Accepting your team mates even with their annoying habits (I am not including being on the wrong side of the law here and I will agree that Shaun has walked a thin line on that score) and even embracing them as part of the team and helping turn that attitude towards the opponent every Sunday afternoon. Shaun’s outward abrasiveness is his tool to learn just how far he can go with each person in his sphere of influence. He learns from pushing buttons, how to effectively push others buttons when he needs a bit of help on the field.
As far as the message about performing well enough to hot have to worry about your actions off the field, Mike Vick has already erased any question in the minds of NFL players. There is very little, if indeed anything, that a player can do to get themselves banned for life from the sport if they have the talent. Somebody will always be there to offer them a job to make money from exhibiting those skills. We may not like it, but it has been proven in the NFL (and other sports) repeatedly.
Haley and Pioli are the closest thing I can think of to a team that do hold the values you mention in high regard. I think that they do indeed make sure that the players know that they have to worry about their off field troubles. I have little doubt that if Shaun was to get out of control, they would let him pursue other employment. The presence of a Shaun Smith does not indemnify a team attitude. In fact, Shaun being considered the class clown sort of makes him the odd man out. The team succeeds with him, but doesn’t really approve of his type of jocularity. Every family has that one guy…
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
The Black Sheep
Smith fits that to a tee on this team, no doubt. I understand that the NFL will find a place for everybody with talent as long as they arent incarcerated, which is what it is. Fortunately, I am against it, despite knowing I will never change it.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 9:20 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Regardless
I do believe that someone of Smith’s jocularity will most definitely not be a part of the long term future as our talent improves and we don’t have to settle for players like him.
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 27, 2011 9:23 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Maybe so
But I still think he played better than anyone expected. If he fails to keep up that level of play, I think you are very right. The team will move on because it will become necessary to upgrade the position.
"You gonna pull them pistols...or whistle Dixie?"
Aiken, that's so true, and so sad ... it's why I argued so vehemently against the Chiefs getting Vick ... just because someone gives him (or anyone) money doesn't make him (or anyone else) a "reformed person"
There is very little, if indeed anything, that a player can do to get themselves banned for life from the sport if they have the talent. Somebody will always be there to offer them a job to make money from exhibiting those skills
bottom line is still the bottom line: it’s all about the almighty dollar … several of them, several billion of them, actually
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Agreed
While it’s clear that breaking the law in the some of the most heinous ways might not be reason enough to overlook your talent in football and ban you from the league, it is a hope of mine that the team I root for can rise above just the talent and stand for something a little more “righteous”, despite the risk of not getting as many wins as other teams who don’t. Again, maybe that’s right or wrong on my part, and as a fan, I should want to get wins, but by “any means necessary”? It’s up for debate on my end
"That was a good job. It wasn't pretty and we made it tougher than it had to be but that's alright. That's alright this time." - Todd Haley
Win pretty, win ugly, win easy, win tough, it doesn't matter
by FalconMF27 on Jan 28, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
very well said, Falcon ... totally agree
and wreck’d, kid
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
He used a slur
Who cares! Society has become overly sensitive and politically correct. Oh my god, he called someone a fag, so get him off the team because he’s no longer a professional. Come on man. I do completely agree that Vick being touted as a new man is a joke. Especially since they base it largely on his football performance.
The business
Shaun Smith gave em the business and the Chiefs were on the good side of 30 yards in penalties as a result. If it really was him taking one for the team, then it was totally worth it.
(re)Sign Shaun Smith.
I disagree ... it's a dirty, smarmy tactic and has no place on the field
does it happen? yeah … but that doesn’t make it “right” or “proper”
Winner: 2009 Nostradamus of Arrowhead Pride Award (I'd like to thank my producer, my director, all of my wonderful fans ... )
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I like Shaun Smith
Not every player on your time should be a help Grandma accross the street kind of guy. Sometimes you need a guy willing to punch someone in the mouth.
He plays with a mean streak, he loves football, and he seems to give 100%. All of those things are qualities Pioli and Haley have said they wanted in their football players.
Should everyone on the team be a Shaun Smith? Perhaps not, but one two won’t hurt as long as they aren’t a locker room cancer. Which doesn’t seem to be the case with Shaun Smith.
meh...
by Chief-blinders-on on Jan 27, 2011 12:41 PM CST reply actions
Warren Sapp
Reminds me some of him with his swagger. Of oucrse I checked and Sapp didn’t have as many nut crackers as Smith in the state sheet.
For as hard as these guys(D) played...
I was extremely impressed with how disciplined this team was. Did we even get fined for an illegal hit? Props to the coaches for that. Nice post by the way…

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