Arguing with Idiots Part 2
Well, we're back. For those of you who don't know what this is all about, I'll lay out a little scenario for you...
You're talking football with someone. Everything seems fine. Then they make some off-handed statement about the Chiefs that you recognize from one of BW's blogs. They don't mean any harm, they're just taking whatever information that national media is giving them (or should I say regurgitating in their general direction) and taking it for a fact. They continue to go on this (completely false and ridiculous) train of thought, totally unaware that you're slowly but surely starting to lose your vision from rage.
The rage isn't from someone bashing the Chiefs. That's to be expected when your team is coming of a 4-12 season. The rage is that someone is making an argument that is so flawed that you're pretty sure it shouldn't even be legal to bring up (stupid 1st amendment!).
What do you do? While I know it would be intensely satisfying to slap a rear naked choke on the guy and whisper "shhhhhhhhh" into his ear as he slowly loses consciousness, that probably isn't the most productive solution to your problem. That and people take it really personally when you do that just to shut them up (strange, isn't it?). What, then, can you do?
You're in luck, because I have here a few simple facts for a few simply wrong statements that if used correctly (and directed at a rational person) should quickly and painlessly end the debate.
Warning: these arguments are rendered completely ineffective against irrational, stubborn, myopic, overconfident, inattentive, racist, unclean, ugly, and/or stupid people. They probably won't work on Chargers fans either. But I repeat myself.
Warning # 2: The word idiot is in no way affiliated with Arrowhead Pride and reflects solely upon the person or persons writing this post. If you are offended by the word idiot, well, uh.... don't ever turn on your TV or go on the internet or listen to the radio or have a conversation with pretty much anyone this side of the Pope. Because if THAT word offends you, you're gonna be SHOCKED by what's out there. And try to remember, this is all in fun!
So here we go...
Idiot Argument #1. "Why on EARTH would the Chiefs take a RB? They already have Jamaal Charles, and don't try to feed me that "he's going to play slot WR a lot" line. Switching positions at this level is always a bad idea!"
We're going to start off with a simple one. Here are the facts you need.
First, Dexter McCluster was actually recruited as a WR. He played that position his first two years of college, then was switched to RB/WR in order to get him more touches.
Need proof? In his last 2 seasons McCluster caught 88 passes for 1,145 yards. Many of those were caught out of the slot WR position. He actually caught more passes in the last 2 years than FIRST ROUND WR Demaryius Thomas (remember, this was while also rushing for over 1,800 yards in those 2 years).
McCluster is a rare player, one that's played slot WR extensively along with RB. He can do both.
Which moves us on too....
Idiot Argument #2. "Well, OK, sure, he was successful at the college level. But he's way too small to hack it in the pro's. That puny little dude is going to get CLOBBERED!"
Now this argument has some (kind of) merit. It's certainly a concern, but not nearly as much as people seem to think.
McCluster IS small at 5'8" and 165 pounds. But here's the kicker. His height actually HELPS him in this case. Anyone here ever do any mixed martial arts or wrestling (or just plain old brawling)? Shorter guys are thicker and more dense than taller guys. This is a natural thing from being shorter (remember BMI from health class?).
Also, and more importantly, McCluster is a strong, strong man. He benched 225 pounds 20 times at the combine. Think about that. He was actually the 7th ranked RB in the bench press, outbenching many "power backs" that outweighed him by as much as 60 pounds! He put that weight up only 2 fewer times than Terrance Cody, who more than doubles him in weight! Yet no one seems to be concerned about Cody's strength...
Oh, and on one last note. McCluster's bench press performance would've tied (with 3 others) for the BEST among all WR's.
I think that pretty much takes care of that. If Dexter's weak and vulnerable, I feel bad for all those other receivers that aren't as strong as he is :)
Idiot Argument #3. "Javier Arenas was a TERRIBLE pick! He's 5'9"! There's no way that guy will hack it at the next level as a CB! How's he going to even help run support at that size?"
I admit, I added the run support part just because it's so, so ignorant. Arenas was known as one of the most PHYSICAL corners in the draft, if not the most. How is that, you ask? Well, you've got to go back to height/weight ratio. The guy's 5'9" but weighs 200 pounds. He's THICK and loves to hit. So as far as run support goes, we couldn't have done better than him.
Now for the height issue. This is perhaps an even worse argument than the "run support" argument. Why? Because we only have to look as far as our own team to find a fantastic 5'9" corner who has successfully covered taller receivers his whole career (if you don't know who I'm talking about, just give up. Really. Take a breather. Rest for a while. Then quietly admit to yourself that you don't know a thing about football).
Corners do not, repeat DO NOT, need to be 6' tall to be successful
But you need more examples, you say? Flowers is the exception, you say? What about Antoine Winfield, or Leon Hall, or William Gay? How about Asante Samuel, Terence Newman, Mike Jenkins, and Darrelle Revis (You know, 4 of the 6 Pro Bowl Corners last year)? None taller than 5'11". And most shorter than that.
5'9" is an acceptable height for a corner who's got great timing, anticipation, and closing speed. Does Arenas have those? Yep. Does he have an impressive resume? Well, unless you find All-SEC 2 years in a row and 2nd team All-American his senior year to be unimpressive, not to mention being named on Alabama's All-Decade team. If you like those kinds of things, then yes, he's got an impressive resume.
Oh, and he also had 5 sacks his senior year, the most of any CB in college football.
Idiot Argument #4. "The Chiefs should've taken a NT and an OLB in this draft. They suck!"
Look, I'm not going to debate whether or not the Chiefs should've taken (insert position here) on draft day. Frankly, it didn't go down exactly the way I was expecting. So here's a little analogy for you (I've used it before, but I want to be sure you have it at your disposal so you don't freak out when confronted by this argument).
Let's say you head to your favorite restaurant. You think that you're in the mood for steak. You haven't had it in a while, and you're very hungry for it. Then you get there and they serve you a great plate of ribs which, incidentally, you ALSO haven't had in a while. You know that the steak would've been good, but aren't you still happy with the ribs? Are they any less tasty? And hey, can't you always get steak next time?
We had other needs, sure. But we also addressed needs. Just because McCluster isn't Kindle doesn't make him any worse a player. And just because Arenas isn't a NT doesn't mean he didn't fill a need and add talent to our team. Same with Berry, and Asamoah, and all the rest. (The draft you thought they would do was the steak, by the way. The players we actually got were the ribs. Just in case that didn't land as well as I'd hoped).
So there you have it. You're now armed with easy and logical rebuttals to a few more of the common "problems" with our team. Make no mistake, we have issues, but the ones talked about here aren't those issues. They're rather the result of a lot of copycat reporting and sound bite re-using that the national media tries to pass off as coverage of a smaller market NFL team.
Now go out there and find an Idiotic argument to shoot down! Actually, don't worry about that part. They'll find you. They always do...
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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The Chiefs absolutely should have drafted a NT and a OLB
I guess I’m an idiot. Oh well, I’m fine with that, I’ve been called worse :)
p.s. MNChiefsfan, welcome to the blog. I don’t agree with alot of what you say. All the “idiots” statements in your fanposts are actually legitamate concerns, but I think you write well and I enjoy reading your posts.
by craig in calgary on Aug 4, 2010 9:56 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
But we got Ribs, Craig...Ribs haha!
Jamaal Charles...Enough said.
by Chiefsfan85 on Aug 4, 2010 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was kinda pissed
when we passed on some late round NT prospects, but we’ll just to see how edwards smith and lokey work out before with give a strong opinion on the subject.
OLB im not so sure. It’s not uncommon for UDFAs to step up in olb spots. We also have guys in house that are ready to step up in Vrabels place when the time comes. And Hali should have a great year…
"The dirtier the sound the best I breathe, I tried to do it all for you and you didn't do anything for me"
You know, those positions are legit concerns...
But there’s a few reasons why they MAY not be as bad as last year (emphasis on MAY).
If we can get Edwards down to a reasonable snap count he’ll be more effective. NT-by-committee worked reasonably well for SD last year, so it CAN work. I’m not saying it will, but odds are we’ll at least be BETTER. Good? Well, I wouldn’t go that far…
As far as OLB goes, that actually would’ve been one of my preferences. Either they have confidence in Studie, or they think that Sheffield can be a situational pass rusher, or they’re waiting until next year. Either way, I wish they would’ve addressed it, but like I said, just because we didn’t get steak doesn’t mean those ribs aren’t tasty :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
He actually compared drafting a NT and OLB to ordering a steak
If I could take his analogy a little further, Pioli got to go back into the kitchen and check out the product (combine, scouts, film study). He didn’t like the cuts of meat he saw, doesn’t mean he wasn’t wanting to order steak. The ribs on the other hand looked fantastic. I don’t think he’s saying anyone that wanted us to draft a NT or OLB an idiot, just saying that drafting a player he didn’t like just to fill a hole when there were players available that he really liked that also filled holes would of been stupid.
"There is no charge for awesomeness" - Kung Fu Panda
by KCporkchop on Aug 4, 2010 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Nice Porkchop!
Now please stop improving my analogies… You’re making me look bad man!
Seriously though, EXACTLY my thoughts. There’s gotta be a reason we passed on Cam Thomas even though he fell off the planet.
Not saying he’s right. But he stuck to his draft board and didn’t take what looked like “bad cuts” to him.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Porky thinks ANYTHING can be made better by smothering it with Red Koolaid
… and while that might work for Pork it doesn’t do justice to Salmon or Steak
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
I think the main thing this analogy has done
Is made me hungry. But I can’t decide whether for steak or ribs…
You a steak or ribs man, ups? (and I’m talking metaphorically and literally here)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
salmon
just to be difficult (grin)
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
by upamtn on Aug 5, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks man
Yeah, I’m mostly doing it for fun.
I can see the other side of the debate. I just think I’m right :)
And for the record, I’ve seen a lot of your posts/comments and you certainly are NOT an idiot :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I disagree
I respect your opinion but I would say while we definitely need a NT and OLB, we also needed speed and athleticism, which we got. You can’t get everything in one draft.
Matt Verderame
I thiknk Piolli is waiting on the roster cutdowns
Some very good players have been picked up that way….just saying….something to think about.
Old guys rule...yeah you might have youth and talent on your side...but I have time and treachery...
by The G on Aug 5, 2010 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's a possibility
I don’t know if there will be any starting material that gets cut, but odds are at least a few depth guys that can add to the competition level…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Craig
The Chiefs absolutely should have drafted a NT and a OLB
1. we did draft a OLB ;) (but I know what you mean)
2. Are you arguing that the Chiefs should have spent high picks on a NT and OLB even when no one at those two positions was ranked highly on the Chiefs’ board? Are you arguing that we should have reached for a sub-par NT?
You can reasonably argue that Pioli, Crennel, and Haley built the defensive part of the board incorrectly and should have had a NT and OLB higher, but I don’t think you can reasonably argue that even though they didn’t they still should have pulled the trigger.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
nice reply PV
I agree that reaching for a sub-par NT would probably have been more detrimental than just not getting one at all. Edwards is serviceable, and hopefully we can get something out of Smith.
This is our year.
Very true.
And for some stramge reason that i cant explain,i feel they know more about it than we do.
by Eric Heflin on Aug 5, 2010 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Slowest team in the NFL
We were last year and still would be without the top 3 picks that we made. Besides, which NT did we pass on that would have made an immediate or even long-term impact? Terrance “Cheeseburger” Cody? Terrance “I’ll-cover-the-center-and-my-left-man-boob-will-cover-the-one-gap-and-my-right-man-boob-will-play-a-3-technique” Cody???? There just weren’t quality NT’s available and teams that allow their DEficiencies to dictate their draft fail. You can’t justify drafting a bad player just cause you need a good one at that position. You draft to develop PROficiencies that the opponent will have to adapt too (e.g. if you are the Chiefs, you need playmakers).
And as for taking a late-round NT, that sounds like a 5 year project to me. DL usually take several years to get accustomed to NFL speed. A late round pick in a shallow NT draft would have just sacrificed a Cameron Sheffield or a Kendrick Lewis for a long-term gamble.
Now lets be clear about something — we definitely need a NT and more talent in the front 7. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. In fact, our draft picks took me a little off guard and I honestly did think that our 2nd round would look more like the Raven’s (e.g. Mt. Cody, Sergio Kindle)
But I think part of an effective defense is a good offense and if we were without a DMC and Arenas on special teams next year, I don’t think a NT and an OLB would’ve helped us win. That’s just me, and I think you have some very valid points. When we lose the T.O.P. battle in several games next year by about 10 minutes, I’ll put my foot in my mouth.
…but every time Arenas returns the ball into the opponents territory or DMC takes one to the house, you’ll have to put your foot in your mouth. :)
by hornetchiefsfan on Aug 6, 2010 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Just go to Youtube
Post something about chiefs and they’ll jump on you
by South Texas Chief on Aug 4, 2010 9:57 PM CDT reply actions
Outstanding
This info will greatly help all Chiefs fans defend their team from morons
Can we be the AFC West Champions in 2010. You better believe it
The Chiefs offence will EXPLODE in 2010
Good Read, No debate from me.
Scott Pioli's star will shine in 2010.
Win or lose, the Chiefs scare the bejesus of all opponents in 2010
Great post, rec'd
I’m going to use that stat about McCluster and Thomas on every Donkey fan I know. You just made my day.
"There is no charge for awesomeness" - Kung Fu Panda
I do what I can my friend.
That stat stunned me.
And it’s a great “game over” line for a Donkey fan, for sure!
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Rec'd but instead of a rear naked choke
can we use a triangle choke? And have a beer after? Not promoting violence just sayin…
by His Royal Greatness on Aug 4, 2010 10:42 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I've never been able to set a triangle all that well...
A rear naked choke is so much easier, and I’m a simple man…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
good work, MN
Seems like your stuff shows how fast “newbs” can fit in around here. :)
Since training camps reports, I am…
1. Thrilled we have Dexter. Someone may argue we could have found a slot receiver in a later round, but that would miss the point. DMC is special.
2. If Arenas doesn’t work into the return game, I’m a little concerned about his overall value. I think he’ll be great at blitzing. Good in coverage (and INTs). But how about in run support?
3. Overall, I am growing increasingly happier with the draft choices. I have to remind myself that a good day at training camp can be way overblown, but reading this comment from Chris/Joel from the evening practice is very exciting…
the defensive MVP was S Kendrick Lewis, whose aggressiveness all over the field really stood out.
I enjoyed that about Lewis as well
Really, the best case scenario for us is he beats out McGraw for the job. Because McGraw is around average at S (maybe a little below), and for a rook to be at the point or better already is astonishing, especially coming from the 7th round.
From what I’ve read about him he’s quite the hitter, and we need two S’s like that.
You know, I understand that it’s just training camp. I mean, we can’t really judge how things are going to be until preseason games (and even then it might be an illusion; remember when Mays was the next big thing at ILB?).
However, I can’t remember hearing this many positive things about a rookie class EVER in KC, and that includes our class of ‘08. And they’re doing it with pads on in full contact (not just shining in OTA’s the way McFadden does. You know, when they can’t hit). That’s a reason to at least be a little optimistic.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Wow. Knowledge Fail...
Seeing as Lewis was a 5th rounder. I am ashamed.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
And as far as the "newb" thing goes.
I haven’t had a single person make me feel unwelcome or be rude to me on any level.
Well, check that, one person has. But the VAST majority of people have been very welcoming and encouraging, even when I make a “newb” mistake (reply fail anyone?).
This place is seriously a dream come true for someone that loves to write and loves to talk Chiefs! I can’t imagine why some people have such a problem with a so-called attitude from the “Old Guard”. I haven’t seen anything like that…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
by MNchiefsfan on Aug 5, 2010 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I gotta admit
I was pretty down on our draft a few days after. I really wanted the front 7 and the Oline not just overhauled but demolished, scrubbed and rebuilt. Of course that is an impossibility with one draft class. The play maker aspect of this draft is very exciting and I am buying into (at least for now) the front 7 player development attitude of the Chiefs leadership. Not to mention, imagine the holes in the secondary if we had not drafted 2 safeties and a CB. No Page, McGraw and who the hell knows who starting at safety… OUCH.
Yeah
It’s almost as if they knew Page wasn’t going to be back…
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
And yet another reply fail by me :(
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
The best part of the draft...
For me it was knowing that Pioli has…ah…no fear. He didn’t look for safe picks. I was hoping we could get Dex in a late round; but, looking back, if he was 6’ 225lbs, he would have been a top 3 pick easily.
We had so many holes.
Scotty had to choose which ones to fill. The big plays were killing us so he addressed the problem. Good read Minnesota.
How Much For Ribs?

Reminds me of Chris Rock in I’m Gonna Git U Sucka. Great write-up though, and loved the analogies on both yours and PorkChop’s behalf. If the ribs look this good now, I can’t wait to taste them later when they’re finally prepped and ready…
2010 Chiefs are on the rise. This is the most excited I've been since 'Nam...
by kcchiefsfan72 on Aug 5, 2010 5:42 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Now that I think about it.....
Pioli and crew are probably geniuses for avoiding a NT. We do actually need one but all the good NTs were franchised or signed to long term deals. Both of our DEs are very green and inexperienced. They are still trying to learn this position. If we got a rookie NT we would get killed. Let the DEs develop first.
Maybe that's what they were thinking
I sure do hope that we can get some production out of Smith and/or Lokey. If we can even improve a little at that position with rotating guys it’ll make a big difference.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Romeo Romeo....wherefore art thou Romeo!
I don’t think one can fully appreciate the positive effect that RC will have on this front 7.
Yes, we were horrid up front for the majority of last year.
Having more time to get the base 3-4 defense down, while being instructed by one of its best implementers can only help us.
Yes, having great, talented athletic players is a huge part of success…but so is coaching. If it isn’t, then why are better coaches so highly sought after…
There are good players in our front 7, they just haven’t been given the best chance to succeed. With some more time under the system, and better technique thanks to RC, players that we were groaning about last season may surprise us this season.
or maybe I’m just due for a Kool-Aid refill….
I'm Your Huckleberry.
Team speed and playmakers will go along ways in making us forget about drafting a NT.
I don’t argue, that based on last season’s defense, that a NT and possibly another OLB were positions we all thought would be addressed early in the draft. When I was watching the draft, I said to myself numerous times “What in the Hell are they doing.?” Then, as I listened to the analysts talk about Dex., and him very likely being drafted to play the slot, listened to evaluations of Arenas, and of course,Berry, who I wanted to draft first, I could see the speed issue being addressed, and that out staff ahd added playmakers. This was a slow team last season, with the exception of Charles and maybe Flowers, just mentioning players that were starters. We really had no one that defenses, or even offenses, had to spend much time adjusting for. We tried a few receivers in the slot, that never were consistent, and there was no one that D-Coordinators lost any sleep over, as far as our passing game. Bring in Dex on offense. We have seen in OTA’s and camp, that this guy is almost unstoppable. He has went through 3 pairs of shoes, with his ability to go full speed, stop on a dime, and make a move on the defender. He has made some pretty decent players look bad, even Berry. His versatility and the ability to move him around, is going to occupy at least one safety or cornerback, and he will be almost as effective as a decoy, as being actually involved in the play, but he can also go the distance on any play, and possibly totally change the momentum of a game. We have a similar player, in Berry, and also Arenas. Both can blitz well, both can cover well, and both can cover the run well, and are hard hitters. We have seen what a dominant safety can bring to a defense, with players like Palamalu, Ed Reed and Bob Sanders. Add Arenas, either as a starter, or in nickle situations, and he brings speed and versatility. We also have 3 potential kick returners, to maybe get some decent field position, for a change. But mainly, we have some playmakers, that the fans and broadcasters will likely go nuts over, seeing some of the things they can do on the fleld. We also have opposing teams that now have to account for our new “playmakers”, or pay a price. The key word is playmakers, and that is something this team has lacked for a few years.
There once was a man from Nantucket......Nevermind.
by Racyman on Aug 6, 2010 4:31 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree
How often did we have to hear commentators say, “that’s a Chiefs defense that just doesn’t have any speed”?
Or “they need someone besides Charles to make a play here”?
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I'm of the mindset that we
Do potentially need a NT and an OLB. However, that being said, in retrospect, I’m glad we didn’t take Terrance Cody. There’s a reason he’s not at camp with the Ravens, and that reason is what people, myself included, have said from the beginning. The guy has weight issues. Not small ones, either. Really big (no pun intended) weight issues. In looking at the guys we drafted, it makes perfect sense why we did. Every one of our guys is in camp. Every one of our guys is making strides as a player. If we had taken Terrance Cody, we’d be in that boat right now. As much as I wish we’d grabbed a NT, there simply wasn’t one available that was going to fit the mold of our team. Hopefully Shawn Smith will turn it up this year. Hopefully our Linebackers will do their jobs well. From what I’m reading, DJ is really pushing hard, and so is Belcher.
by BetterRedThanDead on Aug 8, 2010 12:48 PM CDT reply actions
Agreed
Old guys rule...yeah you might have youth and talent on your side...but I have time and treachery...

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