Cassel vs Franchise QBs
by badassz1987 on Aug 29, 2010 7:24 PM CDT
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PrintFirst I want to say that AP is one of the best sites on the internet. I have been commenting on here for awhile but this is my first fanposts. I wrote this a couple of months ago but never posted it and I will apologize in advance cuz yes it is yet another Matt Cassel post. Ive been reading so many negative posts lately about Cassel and people saying that he cant be our franchise QB, so I decided to do an in depth look at a comparison between Cassel and other franchise QBs.
Some people say that Cassel can not be our franchise QB cuz he has never been anything more than a backup. Well let me give you some names of some other guys that were also backups cuz they were unable to beat out the guy ahead of them to become the starter, Steve Young, Kurt Warner, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers. None of those guys could win the starting job either. It took something beyond their control to allow them to have a chance at starting, just like Cassel. You see sometimes there just happens to be a better player ahead of you that doesnt allow you to have an opportunity to start, but that doesnt mean you arent a good player.
Next for some reason people want to compare Matt Cassel, a 2 year starter, to other franchise QBs that have been starting for more than 5 years and then say he doesn't compare with any of them. Well its not really a fair comparison to compare a guy that has only been starting for 2 years with guys that have been starting for more than 5. If you are gunna compare him to guys like Peyton, Brady, Brees, Eli, Roethlisberger, etc then you have to compare Cassel's first 2 years as a starter with these guys first 2 years as a starter. Otherwise you should be comparing him to guys like Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Aaron Rodgers.
Well that is what I have done. The following numbers are the stats from all of these QBs first 2 seasons as starting QBs for their teams.
record comp% tds int yards sacks
Matt Cassel——— 15-16 59.2% 37 TDS 27 Int 6617 yds 89 sacks
Peyton Manning—- 16-16 59.4% 52 TDS 43 Int 7874 yds 36 sacks
Eli Manning———- 12-13 50.5% 30 TDS 26 Int 4805 yds 41 sacks
Drew Brees——— 10-17 59.2% 28 TDS 31 Int 5392 yds 45 sacks
Roethlisberger—— 22-4 64.55% 34 TDS 20 Int 5006 yds 53 sacks
Tom Brady———- 20-12 63% 46 TDS 26 Int 6607 yds 72 sacks
This next list is comparing Cassel to these other guys with only 2 years of starting.
record comp% tds int yards sacks
Matt Cassel——— 15-16 59.2% 37 TDS 27 Int 6617 yds 89 sacks
Matt Ryan------------20-12 59.7% 38 TDS 25 Int 6356 yds 36 sacks
Joe Flacco-----------20-12 61.5% 35 TDS 24 Int 6584 yds 68 sacks
Aaron Rodgers------17-15 64.1% 58 TDS 20 Int 8472 yds 84 sacks
I would say he compares pretty similar to most of these guys in their first 2 years as a starting qb and none of these other guys had to switch teams and actually go to a worse team for their second year. A couple of these guys have better records their first 2 years but none of them had to play on teams as bad as Cassel did last year either
Next people say that Cassel played terrible last year, I disagree. If you are looking strictly at his numbers then yes you could say he did not have a good year. But if you look beneath the surface you will see something different, unfortunately some people are either unable or unwilling to do this. I'm not gunna bother with going into detail the factors that helped lead to Cassel's numbers, such as dropped passes, revolving door of receivers, o line play, no running game the first half of the season cuz that stuff has been argued way too much already. So Im gunna go a different route. Even with the numbers that Cassel had last year he still had us in position to win 9 games and probly fighting for a playoff spot. And here is what Im using to back that statement up with.
7 games Cassel led us in the 4th quarter to a game tieing or go ahead score
5 of those games Cassel threw the game tieing or go ahead TD pass
2 of those games we won
4 of those games the defense turned right around and lost the game for us and 1 game Chambers drops what could have been the game winning score
Oakland game
Trailing 6-3 with about 7 mins left in the 4th quarter Cassel leads us on a 9 play 72 yd 4:23 drive and hits a 29 yd td pass to DBowe to put us ahead 10-6 with just over 2 mins remaining in the game only to have the defense lose us the game by allowing Oakland to march down the field and score the game winning td. Loss
Cowboys game
Winning 13-10 in the 4th quarter the defense allows Dallas to get a fg and then a td to take the lead with 2:16 remaining in the game. Cassel leads us on a 10 play 74 yd 1:52 drive and hits a 16 yd td pass to DBowe to score the tieing td with 0:24 remaining only to have the defense give up a 60 yd game winning td pass in overtime. Loss
Redskins game
With the game tied in the 4th quarter and under 4 mins remaining Cassel leads us down for 2 fgs, the defense holds this time and we win the game. Win
Steelers game
Trailing 24-17 with about 8 mins left in the 4th quarter Cassel leads us on a 8 play 91 yd 3:41 drive and hits a 2 yd td pass to Charles to tie the game and send it into overtime. Then in overtime he leads us on a 5 play 76 yd 1:32 drive for the game winning fg. Win
Buffalo game
Trailing 16-10 with around 7 mins remaining Cassel once again leads us down the field on a 60+ yd drive only to have Chambers drop the pass that could have been the game winning score. Loss
Cleveland game
Trailing 34-24 with around 8 mins remaining Cassel leads us down for a fg and then with around 4 mins remaining leads us on a 8 play 58 yd 2:06 drive and hits a 12 yd td pass to Bradley to tie the game with around 2 min remaining only to have the defense give up a 70 yd game winning td drive in the final two mins of the game. Loss
Bengals game
Trailing 10-3 in the 4th quarter Cassel leads us on a 8 play 49 yd drive and hits a 20 yd td pass to Castille to tie the game and then the defense gives up a 14 play 98 yd 7:18 game winning td drive. Loss
Those 7 games right there tell me that he has what it takes to be our franchise QB, if only he could have gotten some help along the way we could have easily been fighting for a playoff spot last year.
Matt Cassel vs Aaron Rodgers
The last thing I would like to do is talk about these 2 QBs. The reason is because these 2 have had similar careers so far, but Rodgers is considered an elite QB and Cassel is considered as nothing more than a backup and I dont really understand why. Here are the numbers comparing these 2 for their first 2 years.
record comp% tds int yards sacks
Matt Cassel——— 15-16 59.2% 37 TDS 27 Int 6617 yds 89 sacks
Aaron Rodgers------17-15 64.1% 58 TDS 20 Int 8472 yds 84 sacks
Both of them were drafted onto really good teams. Both of them had HOF QBs starting in front of them so each of them had to wait a few years before having a chance at starting. When they finally got the chance to start both of them had really good teams around them. Cassel took over a team that went 18-1 and lost in the SB and went on to lead that team to an 11-5 record. Rodgers took over a team that went 14-3 and lost in the NFC championship game and he went on to lead that team to a 6-10 record. Also Cassel in his first year starting with the Chiefs went 4-11 with a really bad team around him, Rodgers in his first year starting with the Packers went 6-10 with a really good team around him. Rodgers has thrown for more yards and more TDs but other than that both of these guys have had pretty similar first 2 years as starters even tho Rodgers has played on a good team for both years and Cassel played on a good team and a really bad team. I personally think both of these guys are good starting QBs, not great and not terrible. So a question I have is why is Aaron Rodgers considered an elite QB and Matt Cassel is considered a backup?
I for one believe that Matt Cassel can be the QB that we need him to be. Sometimes I think that people have been playing Madden and fantasy football for too long and thats what they use to judge a QB on. Will Cassel be a HOF QB, probly not. Will he ever throw for 4500 yards and 30 TDs in a season, probly not, but with the offense we will be running we wont need him to.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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good post
I’m with you dude. Can’t really fault Chambers as it would of been a circus catch, but damn it was close. Generally, I am not a big stats guy but it was good work on pulling this info together. Rec’d from me.
Are you kidding me?
Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t the pass Chambers dropped the one from the Buffalo game?
If I recall correctly this was a short slant that hit Chambers right in the numbers, nothing close to a circus catch!
Someone correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that the pass we’re talkin’ about?
"I’d go to battle with him every day of the week." Todd Haley on Matt Cassel
This statement is why I am on the Cassel train, drinkin the Kool-Aid!
by KC4Life on Aug 29, 2010 10:24 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
You don't understand Aaron Rodgers is concidered elite and Matt Cassel isn't?
Really? It really isn’t even close. Rodgers is concidered elite because he is one of the unquestioned top 5 QB’s in all of football and could probably throw a better deep ball with his left hand than Cassel can with his right. If you would have wrote this a year ago, I could get on board because there was alot of questions about Rodgers’ ability to win “the big game” in 2008, but I think he answered those questions last year. Sure he lost the 2 games to the Silver Fox and lost the playoff game, but those losses were not on him.
by craig in calgary on Aug 29, 2010 8:00 PM CDT reply actions
correct me if I'm wrong
but Montana wasnt known for being able to throw the deep ball all the time was he?
No
and if the O-line gels and the pocket starts to stand up 4-5 seconds so the routes/plays can develop, maybe we’ll see some deep balls.
by Chief Willie Wildcat on Aug 29, 2010 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
But I know for a fact that Cassel will never throw like Aaron Rodgers
and I am ok with that. I knew that when we traded for him.
Aaron Rodgers is a rare combination of arm and QB smarts. He would be the guy I would pick if I was starting a new team
"I’d go to battle with him every day of the week." Todd Haley on Matt Cassel
This statement is why I am on the Cassel train, drinkin the Kool-Aid!
why do so many people have this obsession with the deep ball?
And are these the same people that think the Vermeil led Chiefs were ‘the glory years’ ?
Offense does not equal a good team.
Defense wins championships. Offense gets TV ratings.
The deep ball is not a prerequisite of a franchise QB, or even a good QB.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Aug 29, 2010 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Saints got both, with mostly offense
It’s not either/or offense/defense. There’s no rule that says you can’t be good in both.
The Chiefs don’t have to throw a bunch of bombs every game, but they do need to extend the field somewhat, or it will make even the short passing game tougher, never mind the running game. But I think that has as much to do with the OL as Cassel. Longer passes take longer to develop, so you have to protect the QB.
Completely agree
The armstrength and accuracy of Rodgers is untouchable by Cassel. I’m not saying Cassel can’t cut it as our franchise, I really hope he can. But the 2 really are incomparable. Especially if Cassel doesn’t stop tucking the ball away and trying to run up the middle of the pocket when he actually DOES have time, instead of stepping up and keeping his head downfield.
Honestly… that’s all I’d want more from him to be satisfied. Step up in the pocket when you actually DO get one.
"There are two armpits in America. Oakland and New Jersey."- Warren Sapp
by Dustin SLO,CA on Sep 2, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Cassel needs work
He is probably the best play action QB in the NFL. Meaning, he fakes the handoff really well. He has shown he can get the ball down the field on certain drives.
He needs work on getting the ball out when under pressure, the long ball, and overall accuracy.
Let’s just put it this way. He either proves himself this year OR most of the people still rooting for him will be on the other side of the bandwagon.
Jamaal Charles...Enough said.
pfff
best play action QB in the NFL….based on what?
Chiefs Might
by chicks_love_chiefs on Aug 29, 2010 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Watch film.
Do you know how to watch previous games?
Now right click on the link above. Then select open in new window or new tab. Click on any game Cassel played in last year after signing up for the site. Then watch. Observe, the plays where Cassel fakes the hand-offs to the running back. Enjoy.
Jamaal Charles...Enough said.
by Chiefsfan85 on Aug 29, 2010 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
weak argument that he's the best in the league but that's fine.
either way he still looks like a backup….with decent play action
Chiefs Might
by chicks_love_chiefs on Aug 29, 2010 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions
How?
I mean, all you can do is watch games and compare to others. There is no real way to judge play action besides that. From what I have judge and I do watch a lot of games he is one of the best at play action. Then again I’m not an expert. Right now, yes he does look like a backup I agree.
Jamaal Charles...Enough said.
by Chiefsfan85 on Aug 29, 2010 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
as do 90% of young QBs
in their first 2 years.
Seriously, when have I ever been sarcastic?
by Leaf on Aug 30, 2010 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
dudes 28 years old...
he’s not exactly a 2 year QB…
Chiefs Might
by chicks_love_chiefs on Aug 30, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Thank You Ckicks!
Seriously, this guy was a back-up in collage behind Matt Leinart for christ sakes! Not that there isn’t some upside to him but it’s not time to anoint him the next “Peyton Manning, Phillip Rivers, or Drew Brees”. He has much growing to do yet!
by Wichitachief on Aug 31, 2010 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Who knows?
What has Matt Leinart done for the cards lately? Oh yeah sucked A** and got his head placed on the chopping block for the better player Derrick Anderson!!???… lol . No ill will intended Tarkus but backing up a Heisman winner doesn’t make you good. Anyone remember who backed up Tim Couch in Ceveland?
Doesn't make him good or bad based on that criteria
Excelling in the NCAA doesn’t mean you’ll be worth a damn in the NFL.
And vice versa.
Chiefs - back in the playoffs in 2011.
He takes sacks pretty damn good too :P
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Aug 30, 2010 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Point made badassz
I think the reasons we come down on Cassel so hard comes from years of frustration with an anemic Offense that was more predictable than pain at the dentists office. After seeing the second coming of the the greatestshow on turf durring the Vermeil years, we kind of feel like we’ve been cheated out of yet another chance to get to the big game. I have to admit the team we have now has more potential than we’ve seen in 4 years and definately a more promising and posative attitude. The comparisons to these other guys is a bit premature I agree however he will have to answer the questions eventually and those comparisons will be even more valid then. I think we would all like to see a run of good football play like some of the other franchises have had and as we all know if you take Peyton out of Indy they aren’t the same and so too with Rodgers in GB. I don’t think they would be near the playoff threat if he and Cassel switched spots. So I agree maybe it’s time to lay off him for a while but I can’t say the same for everyone else. Lets hope he proves every one else wrong…
Yep
Rec on the post, Was an interesting rebutal yet Cassel is on a hot seat
Ninja Ass
by Steve_Chiefs on Aug 29, 2010 9:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Blech.. no more Vemeil comparisons
I hope we never ever ever field a team that looks anything like the Vermeil led Chiefs again.
Selling out the defense for a bunch of offensive stats didn’t’ work then, and it’s not going to work now. You don’t need the best offense in the game to have a successful team. You need a balanced team.
If your team is going to be at all lopsided, you would be better off with a team that is lopsided in favor of the defense and that can run the ball on anyone. I’ll take wins over flashy offense any day of the week, and in order to win the worst part of our team needs to be fixed… the defense.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Aug 29, 2010 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions
based on how the starters played against Philly
I’m not sure that the worst part of our team is our defense anymore
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Aug 30, 2010 8:20 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Philly has had issues on the interior O-Line all pre-season.
I’d be very careful about thinking our “sackless” defensive unit has all of a sudden become great based off the Philly game and out inside rush sacks.
The interior of our defense (NT and ILB’s) are the worst phase of our entire team. Don’t let one pre season game fool you.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Just sayin
at least back then we had a decent shot at getting to the big dance. Trent Green couldn’t run to save his ass but had pro bowl numbers along with Priest and TG and most of the O line. We didn’t ignore defence as you might think ether Vermeil picked the last pro bowl pass rusher the cheifs ever had in Jerod Allen. He then drafted a highly praised LB in Derrick Johnson and after Greg williams D couldn’t do the job he looked to a proven coordinator from our past with Gun. (Most remember his failed attempt as our HC and forget he led one of the most feared and respected defenses in nfl history durring the Marty ball days). So to say Vermeil sold out the defense is BS. Oh and I’m not sure about you, but I kinda like 13 win seasons consistantly no matter which side of the ball dominates. Just sayin’
by stickboy58 on Aug 30, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Crap I thought no one would recognize me.
Shoulda worn the blackledge jersey that day instead
by stickboy58 on Aug 30, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
13 wins consistently?
You do know the Chiefs only made the playoffs once in five years under Vermeil, right? They did get 13 wins that year, but 6, 8, 7 and 10 wins (no playoffs) his other four years.
Wishful thinking Tarkus
at least it was 4 winning seasons out of 5. Because we haven’t had even close to that since. Should have been 2 playoff visits (still feel a bit cheated about that year). Hell I know There was something missing those years( #58 would probly have single handedly produced 2 more playoff runs for us) All I’m saying is that was the kind of offense that can get us to the big dance and we had a QB who had a somewhat limited physical skill set but had the smarts about how to use all the weapons he had effectively.
13 wins a season consistently?
I suggest you go back and look at the actual stats. You appear to be remembering some other team.
The Vermeil Chiefs has 2 winning seasons, 2 losing seasons, and 1 .500 season.
Couple that with no playoff wins, and the 25-32nd ranked defense depending on which phase of the D you want to look at.
IMO Vermeil did not move us forward as a team, he set us back. When he left we had a whole bunch of veteran players on their last legs, no playoff wins to show for it and one of (if not the) worst defense in the league. — But the passing game sure was pretty.
As to Gunthar Cunningham part II — You will see in my bio that I believe that is the worst defensive move the Chiefs organization ever made in the history of the franchise. Marty was the architect of that amazing defense, Gunny rode his coat tails.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Aug 30, 2010 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
great post
I much prefer these posts, where actual research is done… instead of the “cassel sucks” vs “no he doesn’t, you suck!” Argument
I think he has a chance to develop into a top tier qb, but it is a work in progress
this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6 a possibility?
by stagdsp on Aug 29, 2010 8:13 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Good Post
Good job on the research and thoughout post. There is a much better team around him so we should see improvement, which is what we want. I don’t think its realistic to think he’ll be a top 5 QB this year, but he will/should have a much better season.
I'd rather be a failure at something I love than a success at something I hate.
- George Burns
rec'd
and nice research, and it shows that if everyone is patient that maybe just maybe we might have our QB of the future, its not a given that he will work out but Im willing to give him this year to see before I start calling for him to be gone. And I agree that he needs to prove this year if he can be the guy.
With the right players around him
he could be good
AND…a good defense, and thats partly why I was excited about the defense’s preformace Friday
by South Texas Chief on Aug 29, 2010 8:18 PM CDT reply actions
props for all the effort and work and number crunching here ...
but I do fear a great deal of this is comparing apples to oranges … in addition, if you look closely some things do stand out in some of those numbers …
example, while Rogers and Cassel have similar numbers overall, Rogers has 25% more yards passing, that’s rather a lot in my book, and a much higher completion %
compared to Ryan, Cassel’s sack totals are horrendous (same compared to the Bug Three), the argument there being those teams (NYG, IND, SD, et al) are all better teams than KC (even though only one year of Cassel time is with KC) … therein lies my apples and oranges comment
I’m not ragging on Cassel as being horrible … but Cassel isn’t great and awesome, either … he’s an average QB on a less than average (for now) team
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Come back, Jason!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
i don't think anyone is saying he's great
and i think there lies the biggest misconception cassel haters have of his supporters. i think most of his supporters think, and i said most not all, that he should be given some time to prove whether he sucks or not. yes he’s got issues, but consdering his circumstances, i’m not suprised. i’m not making excuses for him, as i think he needs to fix them, i just think he’s shown enough to be given a chance. and no, one year is not a chance. right now we know he was average last year with absolutely no support, and good when had it. t
Seriously, when have I ever been sarcastic?
by Leaf on Aug 30, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You lost me when you started comparing Cassel to P. Manning, Brady, Brees, etc
I like to dream, but Cassel shouldn’t be compared to those guys
Then you missed a good writeup.
badassz1987 did a great job laying everything out and explaining every single comparison and argument. It sounds more to me like some people won’t listen to the argument no matter what.
I agree
everyone wants to compare numbers and thats all he did was lay them out there noone is saying that Cassel is as good as Rodgers right now but given time you never know and I agree the Cassel haters would still have something negative to say about him if he went 49-50 for 600 yards in a game they would bitch about the 1 incompletion
I may have missed a good write-up, but I'm just tired of people trying to interpolate Cassel's assention in the QB ranks by comparing it to other elite QB's early years
Cassel’s game experience from age 18-25 was nothing similar to the other QBs who were starters so who really knows if he’s going to continue to improve or has already reached his full potential. Let Cassel go out and play this season and see how he does. I could pull up Grbac and Bono’s first two years as a starting QB in the NFL and the numbers would look similar to Cassel’s.
Again, if you would have read the writeup,
that’s all he’s trying to say as well, let Cassel go out and play this season and see how he does.
Rec'd the post, great work
I think the argument of saying he’s in Rodgers league falls short. If you ask 20 NFL scouts who has a stronger arm, throws a more “catchable” ball, and has better accuracy all 20 would say Rodgers on all three accounts. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a pro-Cassel guy. I’ll be sporting his jersey at the MNF game. I just think his upside is more of a cross between Eli Manning and Chad Pennington.
I think our team this year is better then last year’s team, but not as good as the Patriots team he lead. Therefore I’m guessing his numbers will be about smack in the middle of the two. I’ll say 3,300 yards, 20 TD, 14 INT, and 60% completions.
"There is no charge for awesomeness" - Kung Fu Panda
By the way
look up Eli’s numbers his first few years in the league and remember that he lead his team to a Super Bowl win. He needed a good D and run game, but when the game was on the line he got the job done. That’s all I’m saying.
"There is no charge for awesomeness" - Kung Fu Panda
I agree
A average QB matched with a good running game, and a good defense can win the big game. It’s happened before and it will happen again.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
by CPT.Caveman on Aug 30, 2010 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Average QBs don't just need "good" defenses,
they need EXCEPTIONAL defenses to win a Super Bowl…and that is not top 5 or 10 in the NFL, that is the #1 defense in the entire league (usually by a wide margin).
Except Manning didn't have the #1 defense in 2008
The Giants had the 5th best defense in the NFL that year. By kind of a long margin behind the Steelers, Ravens, Eagles then Redskins.
Chiefs - back in the playoffs in 2011.
eli manning is not an average QB
And Matt Cassel is not an average QB…
Trent Differ was an average QB, and yes, he needed an exceptionally good defense in order to win a Super Bowl…I don’t think either Eli or Cassel needs quite that much help.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Aug 30, 2010 8:26 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
That was Eli's 4th year in the league, porkchop
And it was after the first few years when people said Eli was a joke, could never win in NY, was soft. There is a lot of time for Cassel to grow.
Is this is a joke? These numbers aren't comparable...
Matt Cassel——— 15-16 59.2% 37 TDS 27 Int 6617 yds 89 sacks
Aaron Rodgers———17-15 64.1% 58 TDS 20 Int 8472 yds 84 sacks
Only 2000 more yards, 20 more TD’s, and 7 fewer INT’s. Oh, and Rodgers actually started in the Pac10.
Politics aside, Obama would of better been served, buying 5 "new" football teams.
i was going to say you missed the point
but than i noticed your pac 10 comment and realized that there’s no way you were serious. :p
Seriously, when have I ever been sarcastic?
You like some others completely missed the point of this post
And its funny how you forgot to mention the only numbers that matter, their W-L records, they are comparable. If Rodgers is an elite QB and Cassel is nothing more than a backup then Rodgers should have a lot better winning % than Cassel, and he doesnt. Look Im not saying that I think Cassel is better than Rodgers, I just dont understand how people can say that Rodgers is an elite QB and then turn right around and say that Cassel sucks and is nothing more than a backup
by badassz1987 on Aug 30, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually...
I think the W-L record for one player is pretty insignificant. That’s a team stat, not a player stat.
Ok then, what have you done for me lately?
Rodgers won 11 games last year. Casshole lost 12.
Rodgers was also 18-8 as a starting college QB while Casshole couldn’t beat out Leinart.
Politics aside, Obama would of better been served, buying 5 "new" football teams.
No
The Packers won 11 games last year, while the Chiefs lost 12. (Never mind that Cassel didn’t even play in week 1.)
Right or wrong both QB's and starting pitchers are judged by their wins and losses
Politics aside, Obama would of better been served, buying 5 "new" football teams.
It's wrong
That’s my point, for both sports, but even more so for QBs. Just because some people choose to overvalue those stats, doesn’t mean we should all follow along like sheep.
Wow. Ok I can play that game too. What have you done for me lately?
Last game played
Cassel 1-0
Rodgers 0-1
I gotta ask badassz
Do you really believe all this? Or are you just tired of everyone bashing Cassel?
I can understand if it’s the latter and you want to be optimistic about your team and hope Cassel can have a decent year so this team is watchable, but really….Rodgers and Cassel aren’t even in the same class. A Chad Pennigton comparison would make alot more sense.
by craig in calgary on Aug 30, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I really wanted Cassel to work out...
… but it just isn’t happening. Has he thrown 1 pass over 15 yards the entire preseason? He has no confidence in his arm and neither does Weis.
Play back the last game on your dvr and look at Cassel. Then go to the NFL network and take a look at just about any 1st and 2nd string QB playing. Chances are you’ll see better footwork, better pocket presence and a better arm on the random QB.
by chieflypessmstc on Aug 30, 2010 8:54 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
You Can't Fix What's Wrong with Matt Cassel
Pocket presence cannot be taught to a quarterback on the backside of his twenties. Either you have it or you don’t. Matt’s pocket presence is probably the worst of any QB I have ever watched extensively. I believe it stems from the fact he didn’t play much in college and didn’t play much in his early years in New England. Just watch Croyle in the pocket move and slide around with a quick release and you’ll see the difference. I am not in any way saying Croyle should be our starter but the fact remains he has FAR better pocket awareness than Cassel.
Between that and Matt’s horrid footwork, it is not a good combination. I wish Matt all the best and the huge fan in me HOPES I’m wrong in my assessment but I believe Matt Cassel lacks the instincts that make a QB in this league flourish.
And all those were things
That were said about Eli after his first two years.
Will it turn out the same? Who knows. But Eli’s a good example of some patience paying off.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
by MNchiefsfan on Aug 30, 2010 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Eli started in College and was far Younger
Matt Cassel is not a young QB, developmentally maybe but not in age. I hope I’m wrong but my eyes tell me what my heart doesnt want to see.
by Ryan in Nixa on Aug 30, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I hear ya
However, you make the point (in part) for me what you point out that Cassel didn’t start in college. He’s developmentally behind his age, and is much more similar to a 3rd year player than a veteran.
That’s not ideal, but it’s what we have. If he improves this year, great! If not, it’s time to move on.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Exactly
And that’s why his contract was structured the way it was. He’s effectively playing for his job this season, so if he doesn’t show decent improvement, the team is not stuck with him.
People who keep crying about his “$60M contract” are ignorant of the way NFL contracts work.
by Tarkus on Aug 30, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I also appreciate that contract
We needed a QB, and Pioli thought Cassel had potential. So he signs him to a front-heavy deal that gives them an out after 2 years, which should be plenty of time to evaluate him.
At least we can cut our losses sooner rather than later if he doesn’t pan out.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Not to mention the fact that he telegraphs every throw he's ever made to opposing D's.
"Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something."
~ last words of Francisco ("Pancho") Villa ~
Good post. I'll rec that amount of work and research
When you see Rodgers, it’s obvious that he’s in a class above Cassel.
I find the Eli Manning comparison far more useful.
What everyone who calls us Pro-Cassel guys needs to understand is that we’re not unconditional in our support. He’s got to show something this year.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
Yeah, I'm in that boat.
I want the guy to do well because he’s our starting QB and I love the Chiefs.
Seems like there’s a large contingent (or a very vocal minority?) around here who just want the guy to fail. Personally, I’d like him to become the greatest QB in the history of forever (for us, not if/when he leaves us).
That would be awesome. Because The Chiefs would have the greatest most awesome QB in the history of foreverness.
((caveat: In reality I hope he can at least be above average and a good game manager to give us a good chance to win, which we haven’t done in years))
Chiefs - back in the playoffs in 2011.
Food for thought.
Croyle was a horrible QB and was hated by many Chiefs fans. What is your opinion of him now?……. Haley was an immature idiot, no football experience, doesn’t know how to treat his players like men. What is your opinion of him now?……… Cutler is the next phenom. What is your opinion of him now?……..Tamba can’t put pressure on the QB. What is your opinion of him now? Dorsey is a bust. What is your opinion of him now? This list could go on and on. My point? What is our opinion of Cassel going to be after this season? Badassz1987s post says it all. He won 11 games on a good team. How can you not at least give him a chance? Who was better? Larry Johnson, or the line in front of him? Team, team, team. It takes team.
by Chiefs_40 on Aug 30, 2010 2:50 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Itz zo badazz
to replace all ’s’z with ’z’z. Aint that right cuz?!?
in rezponze to your pozt, Cazzhole iz a band-aid qb, not a franchize guy. Rodgerz, on the flip zide, iz bout to take over az the NFL’z bezt
I'd rather be a free man in my grave than living as a puppet or a slave
I appreciate you response....
but why bag on the guy after he put that much effort into a post? Just kinda sad really.
Is it so much more clever
To put “Dr” in replacement of “H” in Arrowhead?
Just something to think about.
For the record, I also agree with your assessment of Rodgers and suspect you are right about Cassel.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
I would be able to get behind this post if his first year wasn't in NE with that team
As any sane person here would agree, there is no way possible he takes last years team or 2008’s team to 11-5 like he did in NE. A majority of the stats that make him favorable in these comparisons come from that year.
In order for this post to hold water he would have to have a year very similar to 2008 this year. Then you could compare his first 2 years here to every single other one of those QB’s first 2 years with the same team.
I appreciate the work you put in and it was well written, but it doesn’t hold water
That is just the point
Rodgers inherited a team which was near championship caliber the year before. I’m not going to say Cassel is Rodgers, but neither was badassz1987. What he’s saying is that the margin is not as wide as it looks. At least until we see how this season unfolds.
by old_school on Aug 30, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is my point here
You can’t make this comparison yet because he has only played 1 year here. It’s not apples to apples
Go ahead and do this comparison with any of the above other Qb’s in their first year and compare them with Cassel’d first year HERE. That is apples to apples.
its never going to be apples to apples then
because Cassel didnt have the same caliber recievers to throw to that those others had or an oline that could block anyone last year and why cant you use the stats from his year in NE its still his first two years as a starter doesnt matter where he played at
by banshee_01 on Aug 30, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It 100% matters
He was in NE’s system for a few years before he was thrust into being the starter so he knew what was going on and he knew the people around him. When you compare rookie qb’s to him it isn’t the same because it was their first year in a system with different coaches and players around them. It’s not the same
Erm
But Rodgers was Favre’s backup in GB for the 2005, 2006 and 2007 seasons.
That’s 3 years in the same system, with the benefit of being behind a HOF QB.
Chiefs - back in the playoffs in 2011.
by TRSChief on Aug 31, 2010 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you
Rec’d for showing even more of a comparison between Cassel and Rodgers.
I am not sure if it has been stated but
another HOF quarterback that began his career as a back up is our very own Len Dawson.
by KC Scout on Aug 31, 2010 9:35 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd Badassz1987
Thanks for the errm, badass, research.
I’ve been on the fence about Cassel for all the reasons that have been discussed to death. The only thing I noticed were balls thrown behind the receivers in that Eagles game, but it could have been a bad route (etc).
This was a very, very good comparison, and thanks again for doing it. I hope Matt shows us the “stinky cheese” this season, because we need it. Bad.
In wondrous beauty, once again, shall the golden tables stand mid the grass, which the gods had owned in the days of old.
by Chiefs_Ragnarok on Aug 31, 2010 12:38 PM CDT reply actions
Fourth quarter recaps
Were very interesting and encouraging. It helps put stats in perspective. Thanks for the effort!
Lets Tell The Whole Story
I know this post will not be popular since it puts a buzz kill on the optimism party, but I think all of this has to be put into perspective. We cannot discount the fact that the rallying as outlined below might not have been necessary had Matt not contributed to or been responsible for the deficit to begin with.
Next people say that Cassel played terrible last year, I disagree. If you are looking strictly at his numbers then yes you could say he did not have a good year. But if you look beneath the surface you will see something different, unfortunately some people are either unable or unwilling to do this. I’m not gunna bother with going into detail the factors that helped lead to Cassel’s numbers, such as dropped passes, revolving door of receivers, o line play, no running game the first half of the season cuz that stuff has been argued way too much already. So Im gunna go a different route. Even with the numbers that Cassel had last year he still had us in position to win 9 games and probly fighting for a playoff spot. And here is what Im using to back that statement up with.
7 games Cassel led us in the 4th quarter to a game tieing or go ahead score
5 of those games Cassel threw the game tieing or go ahead TD pass
2 of those games we won
4 of those games the defense turned right around and lost the game for us and 1 game Chambers drops what could have been the game winning score
Oakland game
Trailing 6-3 with about 7 mins left in the 4th quarter Cassel leads us on a 9 play 72 yd 4:23 drive and hits a 29 yd td pass to DBowe to put us ahead 10-6 with just over 2 mins remaining in the game only to have the defense lose us the game by allowing Oakland to march down the field and score the game winning td. Loss
In this game Matt threw 2 INTs, one that gave the Raiders the only points they scored in the first half. In addition, this was the game where he dumped a pass to Dantrell Savage just at the end of the first half instead of throwing it away, ultimately costing us a field goal opportunity (Where’s the situational awareness?). In addition, he had a very pedestrian QB rating of 66.3.
Cowboys game
Winning 13-10 in the 4th quarter the defense allows Dallas to get a fg and then a td to take the lead with 2:16 remaining in the game. Cassel leads us on a 10 play 74 yd 1:52 drive and hits a 16 yd td pass to DBowe to score the tieing td with 0:24 remaining only to have the defense give up a 60 yd game winning td pass in overtime. Loss
Played great. No argument here.
Redskins game
With the game tied in the 4th quarter and under 4 mins remaining Cassel leads us down for 2 fgs, the defense holds this time and we win the game. Win
No major gaffs, but again a very pedestrian 70.1 QB rating
Steelers game
Trailing 24-17 with about 8 mins left in the 4th quarter Cassel leads us on a 8 play 91 yd 3:41 drive and hits a 2 yd td pass to Charles to tie the game and send it into overtime. Then in overtime he leads us on a 5 play 76 yd 1:32 drive for the game winning fg. Win
Did not play well in the first half, but was terrific in the second half. He was also fortunate in that the play before the pass to Chambers that led to the winning field goal, Ike Taylor dropped a pick.
Buffalo game
Trailing 16-10 with around 7 mins remaining Cassel once again leads us down the field on a 60+ yd drive only to have Chambers drop the pass that could have been the game winning score. Loss
Coming off of a benching the previous week in a blowout loss to Denver, Matt threw 4 INTs in this game and had a miserable 35.4 QB rating.
Cleveland game
Trailing 34-24 with around 8 mins remaining Cassel leads us down for a fg and then with around 4 mins remaining leads us on a 8 play 58 yd 2:06 drive and hits a 12 yd td pass to Bradley to tie the game with around 2 min remaining only to have the defense give up a 70 yd game winning td drive in the final two mins of the game. Loss
Played well. No argument here.
Bengals game
Trailing 10-3 in the 4th quarter Cassel leads us on a 8 play 49 yd drive and hits a 20 yd td pass to Castille to tie the game and then the defense gives up a 14 play 98 yd 7:18 game winning td drive. Loss
Matt threw 2 INTs in this game. The final coming with 1:06 to play after the Chiefs had moved into Bengal territory and still had 2 time outs. His QB rating was a poor 58.4 for the game.
Those 7 games right there tell me that he has what it takes to be our franchise QB, if only he could have gotten some help along the way we could have easily been fighting for a playoff spot last year.
What keeps me from getting excited about his play and moments of success is the lack of consistency and the fall off in his performance last year as the rest of the team was improving. Through the first 8 games he had a QB rating of 77.2 (10TDs/5 INTs). The second half he produced a rating of 67.8 (6 TDs/11 INTs). And most alarming were the last 5 where his rating was 55.7 (3 TDs/9 INTs). If the team were not improving, it would be easy to blow it off as the growing pains caused by his teammates poor play. However, for the most part that was not the case. As the rest of the team improved, Matt appeared to digress and the statistics (although not the be/all end all) support that.
by CaliChiefsFan on Sep 2, 2010 3:02 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
You can make the exact same arguments for Thigpen.
Only Thiggy’s production #‘s blow Cassell away 22 total TD’S in 9 games wich is not quite pedestrian to Cassell’s 16 in 16
dont believe anything Haley says about Cassell.
Haley is always saying how he likes Cassells progression. Last year he said he wished he had 22 Lance Longs and they just cut him.Cassell needs to do a complete 180 to be part of this team next season.He’ll need great improvement just to keep his job over Palko.I would like to make known though that I’m on the draft Jake Locker band wagon.
The one players name I haven't seen in this post....
Matt Schaub. another one season wonder from Atlanta to Houston.
TD to Int the year before the trade 1-2, 1st year after 9-9, Last year 29-15.
What an excellent article
It really was a well researched, well written article.
I do have a couple of problems with the article, however. While you point out that by looking just at statistics, Cassel had a bad year. Then, you use numerous statistics to show here Cassel ranks with the franchise QBs.
You can’t just give false hope just b/c these other QBs had similar stats. Matt Cassel just isn’t very talented.
Can he be a good game manager? Yes, but he can’t throw an accurate deep ball, and his accuracy (55%, albeit w/ many drops) is questionable.
Also, Cassel is now in his 6th year, not his third. Not to mention, there’s so much pressure on him to perform.
He’s getting paid a 10 million (approx) salary. He will only be a midlevel QB (at best).
Before you guys attack me, I think it’s possible Cassel is decent this year.He has a really good running game, along with Bowe, DMC, and Chambers. He has stuff to work with. If the Chiefs aren’t 7-9 or 8-8 this year, then expect to be drafting Andrew Luck or Ryan Mallet , assuming they don’t finish worse than the Bills.
I'm surprised that no one
has mentioned the HORRID offensive line that Matt played behind last year!
The sacks for Rogers are the most similar stat they share, and while Croyle may move better in the pocket, even the elite QB’s in the league would struggle if they had our front five ‘protecting’ them.
The running game will help alleviate the NEED for Cassel to be ‘elite’, and this year will be the real evaluation of his ability on the field. Last year was for Haley and Pioli to see how he handled pressure (both on and off the field), and to determine whether or not he could be a leader in the locker room – (all indications are that he succeeded on both fronts).
With Jones and Charles in the background, D-Bowe on the up-and-up (allegedly), and some new faces up front, THIS will be the year his TALENT is scrutinized.
I also couldn’t agree more with the comments about the wisdom in the structure of the contract.
I hope that Matt can produce at a high level for years to come, but I think I speak for thousands of Chiefs’ fans who would love just as much to DRAFT and GROOM our OWN QB for once.
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