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Defensive Front Seven Grades: KP's Metric -- Input Please!
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 10:56 AM CDT
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Alright guys, this year I'm going to attempt to run my grades after each game. Rather than do it like previous posts have been done, I thought I'd assign actual point values to the good/bad things that happen each game. This means it's less of an arbitrary grade that I'm assigning and more of a statistical metric to judge by each game. I've come up with a little something that I'd like to try for the first preseason game, but I thought I'd run it by the community for any suggestions/changes you guys might make.
I've broken out the defensive line and the linebackers, as they'll have different responsibilities. For the D-Line, I was thinking something like this:
| Position/Leverage | Values |
| Gap Filled | 1 |
| Double Teamed | 2 |
| Pancaked | -2 |
| Free Man | -2 |
| Total Position | |
| Maneuvering | |
| Screen Pass Defensed | 3 |
| Swim/Bull Success | 2 |
| Penetration Achieved | 3 |
| Shoved Off Line | -2 |
| Total Maneuvering | |
| Helping Others | |
| Turned RB towards tackler | 1 |
| Forced QB out of pocket | 1 |
| Created Gap for RB | -2 |
| Total Help | |
| Plays | |
| Pass Batted Down | 2 |
| Forced Fumble | 4 |
| Missed Tackle | -2 |
| Fumble Recovered | 2 |
| Sack | 4 |
| QB Pressure | 2 |
| Tackle For Loss | 3 |
| Tackle For No Gain | 1 |
| Total Plays | |
| Penalties | |
| Forced Opposition Penalty | 2 |
| Lesser Penalties | -1 |
| Greater Penalties (10+ yards) | -2 |
| First Down Given | -3 |
| Total Penalties | |
| Touchdown | |
| Defensive TD Created | 5 |
| Defensive TD Assisted | 3 |
| Touchdown Allowed | -3 |
| Total Touchdown |
***************************
Meanwhile, the linebackers would have something similar, but with added coverage stats, like this:
| Position/Leverage | Values |
| Gap Filled | 1 |
| Wrong Gap | -2 |
| Late To The Gap | -1 |
| Total Position | |
| Coverage | |
| Forced Checkdown | 2 |
| Interception | 4 |
| Forced Dropped Pass | 2 |
| Pass Broken Up | 2 |
| Allowed Completed Pass | -2 |
| Allowed Important Completed Pass | -3 |
| Total Coverage | |
| Helping Others | |
| Turned RB towards tackler | 1 |
| Forced QB out of pocket | 1 |
| Total Help | |
| Plays | |
| Pass Batted Down | 2 |
| Forced Fumble | 4 |
| Missed Tackle | -2 |
| Fumble Recovered | 2 |
| Sack | 4 |
| QB Pressure | 2 |
| Tackle For Loss | 3 |
| Tackle For No Gain | 1 |
| Total Plays | |
| Penalties | |
| Forced Opposition Penalty | 2 |
| Lesser Penalties | -1 |
| Greater Penalties (10+ yards) | -2 |
| First Down Given | -3 |
| Total Penalties | |
| Touchdown | |
| Defensive TD Created | 5 |
| Defensive TD Assisted | 3 |
| Touchdown Allowed | -3 |
| Total Touchdown |
********************
Let's try out a couple examples here. First, we'll go over one of DJ's INT returns from the Denver game:
NFL Videos: Johnson INT return for TD
Of the players on the front seven, we've got Dorsey, Edwards, Tamba, Vrabel, DJ, and Belcher (Mike Brown's blitzing, and there's no Jackson in, so we'll call it six). As the play starts, Dorsey and Vrabel attempt to execute a successful bull rush. As neither is successful, 0 points are awarded. Edwards gets stymied and is pretty well taken out of the play, so 0 points are awarded. Tamba gains penetration and gets a QB pressure, awarding him 2 points. Belcher is covering his man, but the ball isn't thrown at him...successful coverage or no? DJ steps back, achieves a successful coverage as well as an interception, awarding him 6 points. On the run back, Edwards, Belcher, and Vrabel lay key blocks that get DJ into the endzone. DJ is awarded 5 more points, and Edwards, Belcher, Vrabel, and Tamba (pressure) get awarded the 3 TD assist points.
Tabulation:
DJ 11, Tamba 5, Edwards 3, Belcher 3, Vrabel 3.
Okay, let's look at a negative play now. Here's Jerome Harrison's 71 yard TD against us:
NFL Videos: Harrison 71 yard TD
In this one, the front seven is Gales, Edwards, Jackson, Tamba, Vrabel, Demorrio, and Mays. The play starts and the center has pulled to take on Tamba, leaving Edwards and Gales with 1-on-1 matchups. TJ eats both the guard and tackle, and right off the snap has gotten some decent penetration. No "free man" situation, but TJ pulls a double team, so he is awarded 2 points. Gales then gets pancaked, giving him -4 points (pancaked and opened gap for RB). Mays and Demorrio BOTH hit the wrong gap (-2 points) and Tamba gets shoved out of the gap (-2 points). Mays then whiffs on the tackle (-2 points) and Harrison takes it to the house, for another -3 points for everyone.
Tabulation:
TJ -1, Vrabel -3, Edwards -3, Tamba -5, Demorrio -5, Mays -7 and Gales -7.
*****************************
Obviously, most plays won't have quite the positive or negative swing for a particular player. In fact, there will be many where the player doesn't gain or lose any points. Ideally, this will create a game-by-game log and allow us to see improvement/faults from a play to play perspective rather than what I had done before. I realize that until game one gets completely under our belts, it will be difficult to tell what categories may or may not be over/under ranked, but I pose this metric to try and get some feedback at this early stage as to how you, the reader, would like for this to go...so please, give me your input in the comments!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Wow, you are going to do this for every play?
Quite the initiative. The only problem I see is unless you have access to some gametape, its going to be next to impossible judging every guy on every play using network coverage.
I am looking forward to the results.
by craig in calgary on Aug 10, 2010 11:29 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Oh yes.
I’ll be completely limited by the network, which is why I didn’t really want to include the secondary. At least with the front seven, I should be able to see the play develop.
Now, if Aikman could shut up about random quarterbacks so the camera isn’t focused in on them, that would help me out. =)
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I like it
We’ve ben needing a way to measure the front seven’s performance besides sacks and tackles.
The poster formerly known as "ktr17x"
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left."
"In democratic America, Flowers and Berry pick YOU"
I think that will be great Kalo!
Even if there are some “tweeks” that need to be made this will give us some great numbers to look at. How does Jackson score compaired to Dorsey, DJ to Williams, etc. If you are willing to put in that kind of time and work each week I think it would be a great addition to AP.
"There is no charge for awesomeness" - Kung Fu Panda
by KCporkchop on Aug 10, 2010 11:51 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Kalo, I think that's fantastic stuff
Sounds like a ton of work. I love that you’re willing to put in the time to get actual facts.
I actually had to do something similar with Dorsey when I was debating with a fella named Jim over on ESPN.com.
He kept making the argument that all of Dorsey’s tackles were “at least 5 yards downfield”, which basically discounted them. He was using that as one of the arguments about why Dorsey is terrible.
I went back over every tackle I could find (I think it was around 40) on relatively short notice, and it took quite a while. I really respect how much work you’re going to put in here!
If you need a hand with a certain game or something, let me know and I’d be more than happy to help out a little.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
One thing I'd consider changing
Is making a “successful coverage” worth only one point as opposed to two points. Successful coverage may be due to the offense going the other way or a QB just missing an open man, and isn’t always a reflection of good defensive play.
A forced drop or pass breakup, on the other hand, are both definitely good defensive plays and thus worth more.
Just an idea :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
That's one of the big questions I had.
Does successful coverage count on a quick slant route for the LB on the opposite side of the field? Does it need to be a could seconds worth of coverage? Does the QB need to look at that receiver and decide he’s covered?
Might have to be one of those that gets sorted out as the season goes along…
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
That last thought would be a good thing to take into consideration
Forcing a checkdown would be a great way to consider it a successful coverage. Perhaps you make that particular thing a 2 pointer then leave the other types of successful coverage (only 1 second, QB never looks that way, terrible throw, etc.) alone.
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
by MNchiefsfan on Aug 10, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
That would be a good one.
That would show good coverage a lot stronger than the way it is now. Then, PBU’s, forced drops, and INT’s can make up the rest of the numbers and the “successful coverage” points are all covered.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I like it!
Of course, I tend to think all my ideas are awesome, even when they suck, so you MAY want to get a second opinion on this :)
I love my wife, my kids, and the Chiefs. In that order. Except on game days.
by MNchiefsfan on Aug 10, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Trust me, there will be plenty of opinions when I do the first game, I'm sure.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Kalo this would be awesome
is there any way to even the catagories out though? equal number of positive points possible and equal number of negative points possible for each?
This is our year.
Maybe.
The trouble with that is our defense is going to get shoved out of the gap, pick the wrong gap, or allow the offense to get a first down more often than the “positive” plays. I’ll definitely have to look into it. I’m hoping to do a couple preseason games to sort it out.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
yea because it seems like
all the end results would be negative heavy. And while that is probably going to be the case for a couple of them, you are probably right in the orginal way you set it up. Rewarding them with a plus rating is something they are going to have to earn the hard way! I’m interested in learning some more and if you need any help I’m sure a few here on AP would dive in to help.
This is our year.
That's what this post is for: Spitballing ideas.
MN gave me a good one up above, anything else you have to offer, I’ll see about incorporating it.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah roll with it
I will DVR the game and rewatch it again and again and see what can happen with this grading system.
Got to rec this up topside now!
This is our year.
The thing about these arbitrary numbers is not whether they come out positive or negative.
It’s a relative measure. Probably useful for seeing week-to-week improvement/regression.
Nice intention, KP, but the work involved may not be worth it. It may take away something from more meaningful qualitative observations you’re already perfectly capable of making.
"I ain't lyin' 'bout nothin'."
"Oh? So what exactly are you lying about?"
Looks great Kalo, I'll be interested to see the results
I always like your defensive breakdowns.
It will be difficult to determine what some of the guys are being asked to do on particular plays (eg. Is DJ successfully covering the flats when his assignment is to drop to short middle?) but I think you’ll be able to create a good base measurement this way.
I know I won't be able to be 100% correct.
However, shooting gaps, catching double teams, getting pancaked, getting shoved out of the hole…all these things can be deciphered. At least after compiling those, the arguments about how many doubles a player exactly got can be solved readily.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
Kalo
I like the objective touch. My first impression is this…
*Will this be to much for the common fan to digest in a post?
I would guess this would depend on how it is presented.
Here is an example of some basics that I would want to know…
D-Line: Can they hold the point of attack (very important), Can they shed the blocker, and after shedding the block can they make the tackle, Can they create a bubble in the backfield with their blocker, do they get scooped frequently (against zone blocking), do they scape down the LOS or do they squat in their gap, how much pressure do they create on the QB, do they demand double teams.
These are things you cannot get with the usual stat. Things a person would want to know (at least me) if they are not seeing a big number in the common stat…to evaluate whether the player is contributing despite the lack of common stat numbers.
Bewsaf@comcast.net
And I hope most of that I can cover with this metric or one similar to it.
It may be a little much for some, but it’s something that I definitely wanted to have the knowledge about when discussing production of our front seven this offseason. And yes, when discussing the 3-4 and how much of an impact the D-line or the LB’s are really having, I want to be able to point to specific games as inferior or superior in different aspects…hopefully giving myself some insight on what players do consistently and/or well. In reality, I want to know these things for myself, so if I’m tabulating it, I should share it with the community.
I’m hoping it comes across easy to read, like your excellent offensive lineman analysis, to be honest.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
When you post
will I be showing the formula tabulation number or the stats that generated the formula tabulation number? Or both?
Bewsaf@comcast.net
Of course
that is not supposed to be will “I” be showing…it is will “you” be showing.
Bewsaf@comcast.net
Haven't really decided that yet.
I thought I’d try both in the preseason and let people tell me how they prefer it.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
Kalo, holy wow ... awesome stuff! not to mention time consuming as hell ... you're going to need a fulltime staff to break down the film on all that every week
only concern would be in a few of the graded areas like “helping others” … do we (ie, do YOU) know ofr sure that this or that specific defender is SUPPOSED to help this or that other player, or be in this gap or that gap at any given time … the sort of thing(s) that might be “obvious” to a well-trained eye (like yours) but COULD possibly change on a play-by-play basis depending on a specific “call” by Crennel (or an audible by Vrabel, for example)
other than that it looks to be very objective (a GOOD thing!) and I’m looking forward to seeing how it pans out … an awful lot of potential there, but an awful lot of work and assessment on each play
wondering also what effect (if any) the Secondary will have on the Front 7 on any given play, positive OR negative … just one more thing I thought I’d toss out to further confuse the muddled picture
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
As far as "helping others" goes
It’s really meant to be for the guy that steps in and makes the opponent’s QB/RB/WR stop what the play should be and instead makes the opponent turn back into a pursuing defender. One of those “you did everything right and forced the play away from you” sort of things.
The secondary is going to be a rough one. That’ll get flushed out as the points fall…I just rarely get to see all the members of our secondary well enough to know if they’re where they should be.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
well, you noted earlier that you can't see every player all the time on every play ... so accurate scores for a full game are going to be problematical
granted you’ll see much of what counts, but no way to see everyone on Front 7 all the time … even going by ONLY what a player does on a play that “comes right at him” it’s rather a “judgement call” because for a play AWAY from him, you won’t see what that guy is doing, or how well he does (or doesn’t) do …
caveats on this thing, great idea and can’t wait to see the reports/reviews, but plenty of caveats remain
H/T to ya, my friend, for taking it on
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!
Yeah, a guy might not get much credit, when he stays home and prevents the cutback, rather than
pursuing full-tilt and getting some attention that way.
"I ain't lyin' 'bout nothin'."
"Oh? So what exactly are you lying about?"
DL penalty for free man
Sometimes the offense leaves a DL free or chipped if they are running away from him. This isnt the fault of the DL and there should be no penalty if he wheels and pursues the play. However, if he stands around with his thumb up his ass, than there should be a penalty. Is this how you will define it, KP?
How do you measure swim/bull success? QB pressure? pocket collapse? sack? you already have bonuses for that, so this catagory should probably be eliminated.
Also, I would add a catagory to the DL…“Screen pass read and defensed +3”…its one of the hardest reads and if the ends of NT are sitting on the RB, the screen is over with.
To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible.
I've had the same dream every night this week. I think it means that the spring season flopped and my subconscious has gone into reruns.
by chiefsandcigars on Aug 10, 2010 2:41 PM CDT reply actions
I really like the screen pass one!
My idea of “free man” isn’t an offensive lineman in a pulling scheme. It’s a NT or DE allowing a guard/center to run straight through them to the second level. Pulling blockers don’t result in a penalty…so yes, I agree with you.
I was going to measure the swim/bull success in getting by his respective o-lineman. If the o-lineman has to hold or simply lets a player by, that’s worth the points. Not all swim/bull successes result in a QB pressure, though. Sometimes the QB is able to get the ball away without any trouble, but I still want to reward the player for beating his man.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
In a passing down,
if the DL uses the bull/swim and doesnt actively collapse the pocket or get pressure in any way, than the OL did his job..he doesnt have to get by him, but if he is pushing the OL into the QB’s lap, its a win on the DL…sadly, I think you will find that the OL will win most of these battles, with the DL getting a sack or pressure maybe 10-20% of the time. For each passing down, that will add up to lots of negative points for the DL. I would suggest eliminating this stat and increasing the point value for pressure, knockdown, and sack by one each. If one of those things happens, than the DL won. Now if the pressure, knockdown, or sack results in a bad pass or interception, there should be a reward for that as well.
To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible.
I've had the same dream every night this week. I think it means that the spring season flopped and my subconscious has gone into reruns.
by chiefsandcigars on Aug 10, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions
for the DL only
increasing the point value for pressure, knockdown, and sack by one each
bc the DL in a 3-4 scheme are not really expected to get to the QB a lot…thats for the LBs
To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible.
I've had the same dream every night this week. I think it means that the spring season flopped and my subconscious has gone into reruns.
by chiefsandcigars on Aug 10, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Right.
I can get behind that logic. Dorsey coming up with a sack is less likely than Tamba because of how the 3-4 DE plays, so he should be rewarded more readily.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
Oh, they don't get negative points for not succeeding on the bull/swim.
They just get zero.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
So what is the difference between bull/swin success and penetration?
My interp. is that penetration is only on running plays where bull/swim would be on passing only. Is this correct? If so, shouldnt the reward value be the same because penetration on a run is equally as disruptive as pressure on the QB.
Additionally, if they stuff the hole or force the RB to stop in the backfield and find another hole, do they get a point regardless if the LB or DL covering the other hole makes the tackle?
Sorry if I am focusing on the DL only…it was where I played and what I know the most about.
To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible.
I've had the same dream every night this week. I think it means that the spring season flopped and my subconscious has gone into reruns.
by chiefsandcigars on Aug 10, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Kalo,
very scientific approach, I’m excited to see how it works out
My only advice would be to expand the spread of points. For instance,
QB Hurry : 2 points
Forced Fumble: 4 points
This implies that 2 hurries are worth one forced fumble. If you give me option A, 2 hurries, or option B 1 forced fumble; I’ll take option B 10 times out of 10.
Expanding the range and values of points allows you to more accurately judge the value of each action. Just my two cents! Excited to see how it turns out…
I would argue against this because
making two good plays on a skewed system (lets say 2 FF) would cancel out several more missed tackles, missed assignments, and so on…so that out of say, 50 defensive plays…2 or 3 excellent plays wipes out the crap played on the other 47 downs
If anything, I would simplify it. 0 points for doing thier job, +1 for making a play, -1 for missing a play or making a mistake…that would give you more of a card-count reading and an idea of consistency. Actually this wouldnt be a bad idea there KP, maybe to do in parallel with your scoring. It would give us an idea of who performs consistently and who doesnt.
To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible.
I've had the same dream every night this week. I think it means that the spring season flopped and my subconscious has gone into reruns.
by chiefsandcigars on Aug 10, 2010 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
i see your train of thought
but you assume that the range is extended in only the positive direction. if the “crap” of the other plays is more accurately represented as well, then each of the 50 plays would be more accurately scored and ultimately a more accurate system would be developed.
by jack_sparrow on Aug 10, 2010 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions
just as long as the really awesome plays are balanced out by the horribly crappy plays
To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible.
I've had the same dream every night this week. I think it means that the spring season flopped and my subconscious has gone into reruns.
by chiefsandcigars on Aug 10, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
haha
agreed! lets hope those horribly crappy plays are few and far between…
by jack_sparrow on Aug 10, 2010 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm more of a 2 hurries-in-a-row beats the rare FF.
The FF gets a lot of attention, but the D needs 3 plays in a row that amount to less than 10 yards to really win a series. I say this because, among other things, #58’s record-setting day against Dave Krieg was recorded as a team loss.
And you look at the Steelers’ SB season, when they got a lot of sacks, but they traded ‘em for big plays on the positive side. Sacks are a good indicator, but won’t tell the whole story.
Blah blah blah.
"I ain't lyin' 'bout nothin'."
"Oh? So what exactly are you lying about?"
Personally I don't think you should have counting stats like tackles in there...
A good player is going to be avoided and thus have less opportunities.
C'MON CHEN!!! ---Will Ferrell
I think you should only focus on the things the player can control...
Maybe have some sort of ratio of tackles made to tackles missed.
C'MON CHEN!!! ---Will Ferrell
by averagegatsby on Aug 10, 2010 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Guys don't get credit for tackles made
Unless they are for no gain or behind the LoS. Our front seven should have around the same opportunity each play to get to the ballcarrier.
I’m going to keep full week-by-week tabs on all these stats, though. The end of the year writeup will go over all of that.
Having said that, I haven’t done a game yet. It could easily change.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 6:06 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I think there should be grades of zero...
For when the player didn’t really fail, nor succeed, kind of like the idea of replacement level in Sabermetrics.
C'MON CHEN!!! ---Will Ferrell
by averagegatsby on Aug 10, 2010 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought I'd done that.
On my phone, so I can’t really check, but that was the intention, at least.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 10, 2010 6:19 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It may have been a comment but not in the meat of the post...
One more thing, you may even want to give a positive grade or at least differentiate between a penalty and intentional penalty when a player is beaten to save a touchdown or an even bigger gain.
C'MON CHEN!!! ---Will Ferrell
by averagegatsby on Aug 10, 2010 6:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Coverage Sacks?
Rec’d the post. Very interesting stuff.
Should there be some way of giving the secondary credit for a sack? Maybe if the QB is in the pocket for more than 4-5 seconds?
Not sure if this would qualify, but something close to it.
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2010010312/2009/REG17/chiefs@broncos#tab:watch/contentId:09000d5d8157c56e
by hornetchiefsfan on Aug 12, 2010 10:24 AM CDT reply actions
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