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Best Offensive Units In The AFC West

From the FanPosts. Nick Cast is coming here from Mile High Report. Welcome Nick!  -Joel

An offense is a complex idea. It is a series of units that work together to accomplish a single goal. There are 4 main groups: Offensive Line, Running Backs, Wide Receivers, and Quarterbacks. In order for a team to be successful, all 4 groups must click. A bad offensive line results in bad running back and quarterback play. A bad running back makes the quarterbacks job a lot more difficult. A bad quarterback makes the wide receivers job that much more difficult. Bad wide receivers make a quarterbacks job very hard. Even if you have stars at each position, depth is a must in case of injuries and other unforeseen occurrences. Suffice to say, there needs to be equal talent for an offense to be effective.

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Last season, the AFC West teams finished 10th(Chargers), 15th(Broncos), 25th(Chiefs), and 31st(Raiders) in total offense. This off season, every team has made moves that will impact their offensive units. I took an in depth look at how each teams offensive units look heading into the 2010 season.

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Offensive Line

The offensive line is arguably the most important unit of an offense. The offensive line is responsible for 2 main things. Give the quarterback enough time to make a play, and make holes for the running back to run through. Both those things are much easier said then done. The offensive line consists of 5 positions: LT LG C RG RT. In pass protection, the LT and RT are responsible for protecting the quarterback from blitzing linebackers who come off the edges. LG, C and RG are responsible for protecting the quarterback from the opposing d-lineman. LT is usually the most important position on the o-line since LT's are responsible for protecting the blindside of the quarterback. Without a good LT, well ask Joe Theismann how it works out. So without further ado, let's look at the offensive lines in the AFC West.

Here are the 2009 AFC West Offensive Line Stats:

Rk Team Exp Att Yds Avg TDs 1st Neg +10Y Pwr 1st Neg +10Y Pwr 1st Neg +10Y Pwr Sacks QB Hits
7 San Diego Chargers 199 427 1,423 3.3 17 15 14 7 14 35 12 12 36 30 13 13 67 26 53
16 Denver Broncos 354 440 1,836 4.2 9 42 13 26 64 20 10 11 40 33 13 16 63 34 62
27 Kansas City Chiefs 246 438 1,929 4.4 8 30 15 19 62 26 17 11 55 35 21 19 75 45 85
30 Oakland Raiders 207 410 1,701 4.1 7 30 12 20 75 22 6 7 91 29 13 15 54 49 97

 

Oakland Raiders

Tackles: Mario Henderson, Khalif Barnes, Erik Pears, Langston Walker, Bruce Campbell, Jared Veldheer

Guards: Cooper Carlisle, Robert Gallery, Daniel Loper, Brandon Rodd, Allen Smith

Centers: Chris Morris, Samson Satele

Last year, Oakland had one of the worst offensive lines according to NFL.com statistics. They gave up the 3rd most qb hits(97) and 3rd most sacks(49). Now, some of that can be attributed to Jamarcus the Hutt, but not all of the blame. In addition to qb hits and sacks, the o-line only allowed the running attack 4.1 ypc and just 7 touchdowns on the season. In the off season, Oakland picked up rookies Bruce Campbell and Jared Veldheer. They are hoping that one of the rookies steps up into the opposite tackle position of Mario Henderson.

Kansas City Chiefs

Tackles: Brandon Albert, , Barry Richardson, Ryan O'Callaghan

Guards: Colin Brown, Darryl Harris, Ryan Lilja, Brian Waters, Ndukwe, Ikechuku, Jon Asamoah

Centers: Rudy Niswanger, Casey Wiegmann

Last year, KC had a below average offensive line according to NFL.com statistics. They gave up the 12th most qb hits(85) and 6th most sacks(45). They did boast an above average rushing attack averaging 4.4 ypc but just 8 touchdowns. This off season they signed veterans Ryan Lilja and Casey Wiegmann. Ryan Lilja looks to start at guard while Casey could be a bench player.

San Diego Chargers

Tackles: Brady Bond, Corey Clark, Jeromy Clarey, Dombrowski, Brandyn, Marcus McNeill, Ryan Otterson, Nick Richmond, Tra Thomas,

Guards: Kris Dielman, Tyrone Green, Louis Vasquez, Jeff Hansen, Mruczkowski, Scott

Center: Nick Hardwick, Ryan McDonald

Last year, San Diego had a top 10 offensive line according to NFL.com statistics. They were 29th in qb hits(53) and 27th in sacks(26). On the other hand, they had a terrible running game. They averaged just 3.3 ypc but 17 touchdowns.  However, the lack of running game shouldn't be blamed on the offensive line. The lack of a running game can be attributed to an aged and ineffective Ladanian Tomlinson.

Denver Broncos

Tackles: Ryan Clady, Ryan Harris, Zane Beadles, Tyler Polumbus, D'Anthony Batiste, Paul Duncan, Chris Marinelli,

Guard: Chris Kuper, Seth Olsen, Eric Olsen, Russ Hochstein, Kirk Barton, Stanley Daniels

Center: J.D. Walton, Dustin Fry

Last year, Denver had an average offensive line according to NFL.com statistics. They were 25th in qb hits(62) and 16th in sacks(34). They had an average running game. They averaged 4.2 ypc and 9 touchdowns. The 2009 offensive line would have been a lot better if stud RT Ryan Harris was not injured early in the season.

2010 Outlook

There were two occurrences this off season that have very much effected two AFC West teams as it relates to their offensive lines. Denver's pro bowl LT tore his left patellar tendon while playing basketball and San Diego's stud LT Marcus McNiell is threatening a holdout till at least week 10. Both of these players are extremely important to their teams. Their absences will definitely be felt. Kansas City and Oakland's offensive lines are a bit of a question mark heading into TC. KC hopes that Lilja is enough to shore up the pass rush. Oakland hopes that one of their rookies is good enough to start the season opposite of Mario Henderson.

Ranking these o-lines is difficult. When fully healthy, Denver arguably has the best o-line. However, given the circumstances of this off season, the best unit has to be San Diego.

1. San Diego

2. Denver

3. Kansas City

4. Oakland

 

Running Backs

Although the league has become a passing one, running backs are still very important to today's NFL offense. Players such as Chris Johnson, Adrian Peterson, and Ray Rice can change the tone of the game with one explosive play. Last season, the AFC West was pretty mediocre in their rushing attacks. Here are the stats from 2009:

Rk Team G Pts/G TotPts Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng 1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
11 Kansas City Chiefs 16 18.4 294 438 27.4 1,929 4.4 120.6 8 76T 91 20.8 11 5 14
18 Denver Broncos 16 20.4 326 440 27.5 1,836 4.2 114.8 9 45T 95 21.6 7 1 6
21 Oakland Raiders 16 12.3 197 410 25.6 1,701 4.1 106.3 7 60 81 19.8 11 2 8
31 San Diego Chargers 16 28.4 454 427 26.7 1,423 3.3 88.9 17 36 80 18.7 7 0 2

 

Oakland

Running Backs On Roster: Michael Bennett, Rock Cartwright, Michael Bush, Darren McFadden, Marcel Reece

Michael Bush- Oakland fans are excited about Bush. In his first two seasons of play, Bush has averaged a very nice 4.6 ypc. He has also only surrendered 1 fumble each season. Even better is that he has shown progression in those two years. In 2008, he averaged 4.4 ypc while last season he averaged 4.8 ypc. His attempts also increased to 123 as opposed to 98 from 2008. With another year under his belt, Michael Bush looks to be Oakland's best playmaker headed into 2010.

Darren McFadden- Yikes. When Oakland drafted Darren McFadden with the 4th pick in the 2008 draft, they were expecting the explosive running back who had won numerous awards at the University of Arkansas. Instead they got a running back who has struggled to shift to the NFL game. In his rookie season, McFadden averaged 4.4 ypc on 113 attempts. In 2009, McFadden regressed. He averaged just 3.4 ypc on 104 attempts. Even more alarming is his fumbling problem. McFadden has 7 total fumbles in 2 years. 3 in his rookie season and 4 in 2009.

Oakland averaged 4.1 ypc last season. Bush was the lone bright spot on the Raiders offense. With Jason Campbell taking over for Jamarcus Russel, Bush's job should be easier. The only question is whether the offensive line will be good enough to let Bush shine in 2010.

Kansas City Chiefs

Running Backs On Roster: Jackie Battle, Tim Castille, Jamaal Charles, Tervaris Johnson, Thomas Jones, Kestahn Moore, Javarris Williams

Jamaal Charles- Believe me when i say, Chiefs fans are going crazy for this guy and with good reason. Since being drafted, Charles has been a spark for the porous Chiefs offense. In his rookie year, he averaged 5.3 ypc on 67 attempts. In 2009, he averaged a remarkable 5.9 ypc on 190 attempts. He fumbled just once in his rookie year, and twice in 2009.

Thomas Jones- Possibly the best off season acquisition, Jones is coming off one of his best years as a pro. With the Jets, Jones averaged 4.2 ypc on 331 attempts. He had 14 touchdowns and gained 1,402 yards. He also fumbled just twice.

On the surface, Kansas City has one of the best running back tandems in the league with up and comer Jamaal Charles and veteran Thomas Jones. However, there is reason for skepticism as to how good this pair is going to be. Thomas Jones came from the Jets who arguably had the best run blocking o-line in the league. Will he be nearly as successful with Kansas City's o-line?

Finally, is Jamaal Charles all that KC is making him up to be? KC fans point to his final 4 games when he got over 100 yards in each game and nearly got 300 against Denver. However, I would point out the teams they played against. Week 14 against Buffalo, Week 15 against Cleveland, Week 16 against Cincinnati, and week 17 against Kansas City.

All of these teams with the exception of Cincinnati ranked in the bottom 10 in run defense. Buffalo(30), Cleveland(28), Denver(26). Cincinnati ranked 7th and gave up an average of 98 rushing yards a game. In the game against KC, Charles ran for 102 yards. So Charles was on par with what the Cincinnati defense gave up each game.

So the question is, is Jamaal Charles as talented as his final 4 games suggest, or was he a benefactor of circumstance? I know what Chiefs fans will say, but it is a legitimate question. Up until week 14, Charles only got 100+ yards once and that was against Oakland who ranked 29th. So how good is Charles? We will see, but my bet is he isn't as spectacular as Chiefs fans seem to think.

San Diego

Running Backs on roster: Curtis Brinkley, Marcus Mason, Ryan Matthews, Shawnbrey McNeal, Darren Sproles

Ryan Matthews- Ryan was the 1st running back selected in the 2010 draft. San Diego traded up to # 12 to get him. After ranking last in rushing attack last season, San Diego gave up a ton and are gambling on Matthews. Many people praised San Diego for getting "their guy". However, it was arguably the riskiest move in the draft. Matthews played at Fresno State. He did not play at an elite school such as Texas, USC, Alabama, or Florida. In addition, Matthews has never had a full season of injury-free play. He has been injured every year since his freshman campaign. The Chargers are gambling a lot on Matthews. They are hoping he comes into the league and gets 250 carries and 40 receptions.

Darren Sproles- Sproles is a secondary option for San Diego. Last year, Sproles has a significant increase in carries compared to 2008. In 2009, he got the ball 93 times opposed to 61 from 2008. The disheartening stat is that with 30+ more carries, Sproles only got 13 more yards then he did in 2008. Sproles is not an every down kind of running back. He is a decent secondary option. His true worth is on special teams.

 

San Diego can't possibly do worse from 2009 can they? Well, yes they can. Matthews is an exciting player, but his injury prone nature doesn't bode well for his NFL career. If he can stay healthy, the Chargers offense will be better for it. However, if Matthews gets hurt at any point in the season, they will have to rely on Darren Sproles for the rest of the season...Yikes.

Denver Broncos

Running Backs On Roster: J.J. Arrington, Toney Baker, Lance Ball, Correll Buckhalter, Bruce Hall, Knowshon Moreno, Kolby Smith

Knowshon Moreno- When McDaniels drafted Knowshon last year with the 12th pick, it was surprising to say the least. A year later, it appears that Josh knew what he was doing all along. Knowshon is the centerpiece of the Denver running attack. Last year, Knowshon ran 247 times for 947 yards. He averaged just 3.8 ypc. It was a disappointing rookie year for Knowshon. He was decent, but not great while splitting carries with Correll Buckhalter. He scored 7 td's. He also lost 4 fumbles. On the bright side, Knowshon averaged 7.6 yards per catch. He scored 2 times.

Correll Buckhalter- Buckhalter was brought into the Bronco organization last year. He was an after thought due to the other high profile players that McDaniels signed. However, Buckhalter provided a very nice spark in limited action in 2009. Last season, he rushed 120 times for 642 yards. He averaged 5.4 ypc. Buckhalter is a nice compliment to Knowshon. The key to Buck is can he stay healthy enough to be effective?

2010 Outlook

The league has changed over the years. Not only is it not a run first league anymore, running back committees are almost necessary in today's look. Each team except San Diego has a nice committee of running backs heading into TC. KC has Thomas and Charles. Oakland has Bush and McFadden. Denver has Knowshon and Buckhalter. So who has the top run game going into 2010? There are plenty of reasons to question how good Jamaal Charles is and how effective Thomas Jones will be in Kansas City. But for now, KC undoubtedly has the best run game in the AFC West.

1. Kansas City

2. Denver Broncos

3. Oakland Raiders

4. San Diego Chargers

 

Wide Receivers

They say a quarterbacks bestfriend is the offensive line. However, the wide receivers can't be far behind. Wide Receivers can make a quarterback look really good, or really bad. The AFC West is home to a ton of wide receivers who are loaded with potential. The best receivers in 2009 were Brandon Marshall and Vincent Jackson. In 2010, Brandon Marshall is a dolphin and Vincent Jackson looks to be holding out. With those 2 juggernauts gone, who has the best wide receiver corps? Let's examine.

Oakland Raiders

Wide Receivers On Roster: Damola Adeniji,, Shaun Bodiford, , Yamon Figurs, Jacoby Ford, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Johnnie Lee Higgins, Jonathan Holland, Paul Hubbard, Nick Miller, Louis Murphy, Chaz Schilens, Todd Watkins,

Tight Ends On Roster: Zach Miller, Brandon Myers, John Owens, Tony Stewart

Last season, Oakland ranked 29th in pass yards last season with 159.8 yards per game. It's a shame because Oakland has some good pieces on their team. Chad Schilenz could be a good even great player, but 09 was plagued by injuries. Louis Murphy and Johnnie Lee Higgins are good role players. In order for Oakland to be successful, they are going to need 09 draft pick Darrius Heward Bey to step up. Last season,  Bey caught just 9 passes for 124 yards. He dropped a ton of passes last year. If Oakland wants it's offense to be a force, Bey needs to produce a lot more then he did in 09. Even if Bey steps up, he won't be their best receiving threat. Zach Miller is arguably the best receiving threat on the team. The 4th year tight end led all Oakland receivers last season with 66 passes for 805 yards. With a new qb in Jason Campbell, Oakland's receivers should benefit from playing with a quarterback not named Jamarcus Russel.

Kansas City Chiefs

Wide Receivers On Roster: Dwayne Bowe, Chris Chambers, Terrance Cooper, David Grimes, Rich Gunnell, Jeremy Horne, Quinten Lawrence, Lance Long, Dexter McCluster, Jerheme Urban

Tight Ends On Roster: Brad Cottam, Tony Moeaki, , Leonard Pope, Cody Slate

Last season, KC finished 25th in passing yards. They averaged 182 yards per game. They could have finished a lot lower if they had not signed Chris Chambers. Chambers came to KC in week 9. After being signed, he caught 36 passes for 608 yards. The Chief's best receiver, Dwayne Bowe, had a bad year last year. He was suspended for 4 games for violating the leagues drug policy. He ended the season with 47 catches for 589 yards and 4 touchdowns. KC drafted RB/WR/KR Dexter McCluster to give Cassel another target for the upcoming season. With Matt Cassel at the helm, KC struggled to move the ball through the air last season. The offensive line was part of the problem, but the lack of receiving options was also to blame. KC is hoping that McCluster is a force to be reckoned with from the slot.

San Diego Chargers

Wide Receivers On Roster: Seyi Ajirotutu , Gary Banks, Buster Davis, Malcom Floyd, Richard Goodman, Legedu Naanee, Josh Reed, Ernest Smith, Bryan Walters, Jeremy Williams

Tight Ends On Roster: Richie Brockel, Dedrick Epps , Dajleon Farr,  Antonio Gates, Randy McMichael, Kris Wilson

San Diego had one of the best passing offenses last season. They ranked 5th in passing yards. They averaged 271 yards per game. Behind quarterback Phillip Rivers, the Chargers reached the AFC Divisional game, but lost to the New York Jets. The Chargers have a high fire powered passing offense. However, with Vincent Jackson threatening a hold out, San Diego has arguably lost it's best receiver. They still have Antonio Gates who is always a huge threat. However, the combination of Malcom Floyd, Antonio Gates and Legedu Naanee just doesn't inspire the same amount of fear that Vincent Jackson, Malcom Floyd and Antonio Gates do.

Denver Broncos

Wide Receivers On Roster: Alric Arnett, Eric Decker, Jabar Gaffney, Patrick Honeycutt, Brandon Lloyd, Kenny McKinley, Eddie Royal, Brandon Stokley, Demayrius Thomas, Matthew Willis

Tight Ends On Roster: Marquez Branson, Riar Geer, Daniel Graham, Nathan Overbay, Richard Quinn,

The big news this off season for Denver was that the Broncos traded Brandon Marshall for 2 2nd round picks. Now the question is, who is going to make up the 100+ catches and 1000+ yards that Marshall accounted for last season. The Denver offense was primarily made up around Marshall. After Marshall, the closest receiver was Jabar Gaffney(54 catches, 732 yards, and 2 TD's). Denver drafted 2 wide receivers in the 2010 draft: Demayrius Thomas and Eric Decker. Demayrius is a big, fast receiver who is a vertical threat. Decker is a tall, sturdy possession receiver. Eddie Royal had a great rookie year in 08. However, in 09, his production dropped significantly. The wide receiver position is a big question mark for Denver. McDaniels looks to be building a New Orleans Saint style of offense in which there are a bunch of good receivers, but no clear # 1. We will see how it works out in the coming weeks.

 

2010 Outlook

If Vincent Jackson was going to be an active part of the Chargers, it would be a no brainer. Vincent Jackson draws the double teams and it opens things up for Antonio Gates, Malcom Floyd, and the other receivers. However, without Jackson, SD will be seeing more attention on the other receivers. The same thing goes for Denver. Without Marshall, defenses won't have to focus so much on 1 receiver. Oakland has some good receivers in place to have a pretty good offense. KC needs some help in the receiver department. Dwayne Bowe and Chris Chambers aren't going to cut it. Especially if Bowe played like he did in 09.

1. San Diego

2a. Denver

2b. Oakland

4. Kansas City

 

Quarterbacks

Last but certainly not least are the quarterbacks. When we see a quarterback lead a team to the Super Bowl without any running game(Peyton Manning) , it is safe to say that the league has become a passing league. The AFC West has not had a real strong quarterback class in a while. The quarterbacks are still mediocre with 1 player being supreme to the others. Let's take a look.

Oakland Raiders

Quarterbacks on Roster: Kyle Boller, Jason Campbell, Charlie Fry, Bruce Gradkowski,

Oakland fans are thrilled that they don't see Jamarcus Russell on their roster. After 3 years of terrible play, poor work ethic, and too many jelly donuts, the Raiders cut ties with the former # 1 overall pick. In the 2009 draft, they traded for Redskins quarterback Jason Campbell. Campbell is a decent qb. He is leaps and bounds better then Jamarcus. He has good pieces around him in Oakland and will have a good season provided his offensive line holds up.

 

Kansas City Chiefs

Quarterbacks on Roster: Matt Cassel, Brody Croyle, Tyler Palko

Last season, the Chiefs traded for Cassel who had a terrific year with the New England Patriots after Tom Brady went down with injury. In 09, Cassel had an okay year. He passed for 271 times for 2,924 yards, 16 touchdowns, and 16 interceptions. He was much better in 08 then he was in 09. Then again, he was surrounded by much more talent. Many believe Cassel is a decent starting qb, but  his real calling is as a back up. I respectfully disagree. He is a better qb then most people give him credit for, but he certainly is not a Peyton Manning. I think he has what it takes to be a starter in this league, but KC needs to give him a line and wide receivers to work with.

 

San Diego Chargers

Quarterbacks on Roster: Johnathon Crompton, Phillip Rivers, Billy Volek

Phillip Rivers is an elite quarterback. In 09, he passed 317 times for 4,254 yards, 29 touchdowns, and 9 interceptions. It helps that he has two fantastic receivers in the game(Vincent Jackson, Antonio Gates). This year, he it looks as if he is going to be without one of those targets. Will Phillip Rivers' production drop? We shall see. It will likely dip a little. However, Rivers is way too talented to not have the Chargers be a top 15 offense.

 

Denver Broncos

Quarterbacks on Roster: Kyle Orton, Brady Quinn, Tim Tebow

Last season, Denver traded starting Jay Cutler to the Chicago Bears for a ton of draft picks and Kyle Orton. Orton was the starter and was very efficient in Josh McD's system. Kyle had his best season as a pro and finished with 336 passes for 3,802 yards, 21 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions. However, 11 of his interceptions came in the final 8 weeks of the season. With another year under the system, the Broncos expect more from Orton in 10. They drafted Tebow in the 1st round of the NFL draft. He projects to be the Broncos future starter. He will also get opportunities to play this year.

 

2010 Outlook

There is no doubt. Phillip Rivers is the best quarterback in the division. It is not even close. He is an elite quarterback. Behind him, it's debatable. Kyle Orton is the 2nd best quarterback based purely on stats. He outperformed both Matt Cassel and Jamarcus Russel last year. It's hard to project where Jason Campbell is. He played with a porous Washington team. But is he better then Cassel? It's up for interpretation. Despite going 4-12, Campbell passed 327 times for 3,618 yards, 20 touchdowns, and 15 interceptions.  Matt Cassel passed 271 times for 2,924 yards, 16 touchdowns, and 16 interceptions. It's always hard to judge quarterbacks on different teams, Campbell gets the nod here.

1. San Diego

2. Denver

3. Oakland

4. Kansas City

 

So we have examined all aspects of each teams offense. No team is perfect, but some are closer then others. All of these examinations lead to one question, Who has the best offense going into 2010? Well, let's take one final look

 

Oakland

4th best offensive line

3rd best running back

2nd best wide receivers

3rd best quarterback

Kansas City

3rd best offensive line

1st best running backs

4th best wide receivers

4th best quarterbacks

San Diego Chargers

1st best offensive line

4th best running backs

1st best wide receivers

1st best quarterbacks

Denver Broncos

2nd best offensive line

2nd best running backs

2nd best wide receivers

2nd best quarterback

Final Projection:

Best Offense- San Diego

2nd Best Offense- Denver

3rd Best Offense- Oakland

4th Best Offense- Kansas City

 

There you have it, an entire breakdown of the offensive units in the AFC West. Hope you enjoyed it. I already expect a backlash from you guys here at AP, but I would love to hear your thoughts.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

Comment 153 comments  |  4 recs  | 

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I fail to see how Denver's QB or WR are better than KCs

and, I’d take Cassel over Campbell and Orton all day long, and twice on Sunday.

other than that, thanks for the post and the research!

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6 a possibility?

by stagdsp on Jul 21, 2010 5:06 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Last year

Kyle Orton had more yards, wins and touchdowns and less interceptions than Cassel.
Is it really that far of a stretch???

by craig in calgary on Jul 21, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah, but other than that...

Orton sucks :)

Cassel is the man.

quit trying to apply logic !

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6 a possibility?

by stagdsp on Jul 21, 2010 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who uses logic these days anyways

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jul 21, 2010 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

One comment:

The line was adjusting.

"Everything is a lie. Except that last statement."

"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.

Quitter's People United Member #18

by Tempestuous Binary on Jul 23, 2010 1:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

but who makes more money?

Thought so

Don't Fuccop Succop

by chicks_love_chiefs on Jul 21, 2010 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Much better Offensive line and BRANDON MARSHALL

Who caught HALF of his yards! Good luck with that next year… Orton is Solid, but he does not have the tallent of Cassel. No doubt he is better than Campbell though… Also, why does Cassel get penalized for having a better running game? There has to be more than just the basic stats to look at…

by Skrappy on Jul 21, 2010 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I see it more like this

Orton is a solid B quarterback who was put into a not-bad situation.

Cassell is a B+ quarterback who was put into an absolutely terrible situation.

Any kind of assessment of Cassell based on his one year in KC so far is going to have very skewed results. It’s a tainted sample, so to speak, and will be thrown out after seeing how he performs in 2010 and 2011.

Chiefs - back in the playoffs in 2011.

by TRSChief on Jul 22, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I ranked Orton over Cassel

because Orton was way more productive. He had a great year and Cassel had an okay year. You can say what you want about Orton’s arm strength, but he was effective last year. 336 passes for 3,802 yards, 21 touchdowns, and 12 interceptions is a good stat line for him. It rivals Cassel’s year in NE when he passed 327 times for 3693 yards, 21 touchdowns and 11 interceptions.

Cassel’s line was 271 times for 2,924 yards, 16 touchdowns, and 16 interceptions which isn’t all that impressive. Now, offensive line and WR’s could play a factor but Orton undoubtedly had a better year.

Based on the statistics, system, offensive line, and wide receivers Orton is going to be better then Cassel IMO.

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
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by Nick Cast on Jul 21, 2010 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

there you go with logic again!

If Orton was so great, why did Denver trade up to get a “QB” in the first round?

Cassel had everything working against him last year, and should have a better statistical year this year, IMHO

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6 a possibility?

by stagdsp on Jul 21, 2010 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tebow is a year or two away. Even I'll concede that.

Orton was never a long term solution, and is a good but not spectacular QB.

My AFC West QB ratings would be:
1) Phil. Barf.
2) Orton
3) Cassel
4) Campbell.

by craig in calgary on Jul 21, 2010 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I could buy into that

as long as the WR rankings went

1) SD
2) KC
3) Oakland
4) Denver

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6 a possibility?

by stagdsp on Jul 21, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

keeping everything else the same, my overall rankings would be

1) SD (IF they get Jackson and McNeil figured out)
2) KC (best running game, decent receivers, improved OL and QB)
3) Denver (counting on a lot of young players, but they have a shot)
4) OAK (lots of talent/potential, but never seem to put it together)

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6 a possibility?

by stagdsp on Jul 21, 2010 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think I would go like such:

1) SD
2a) KC
2b) DEN
4) OAK

I think SD could drop on this list but they have the most talented roster to date.
KC and DEN are both kinda rebuilding and either one are capable of banging or busting.
OAK has done alot in this offseason to make themselves better but I don’t see Jason Campbell playing the role of savior.

Word.

by BigRedChief on Jul 21, 2010 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

hmmm...

“Based on the statistics, system, offensive line, and wide receivers Orton is going to be better then Cassel IMO.”

So I’m confused now — wasn’t the point of this post to isolate these positions and then assess them? If the point is to take a comprehensive approach and question which positions will have success because of other positions, I think one could argue that our HB’s make Cassel better. I also think our WR’s are WAY better than Denver which would also, according to your logic, be an asset for Cassel’s assessment.

Orton is not a good quarterback. He’s a game manager. He needs to be on a team where he can be Dilfer. The Broncos were two-trick ponies last season — Dumervil and Screens. Once everyone got 6 games on film of what McDaniels was doing with the schemes, they went 2-8, losing their chance to make it to the playoffs at home, against a division rival in a blow-out. Its just hard to be a successful QB in this league without a strong arm — he can’t throw deep-outs, back-shoulders, deep bombs…those inabilities limits what the offense can do and those limitations will mean, next season, that McDaniels will grow impatient and — being a coach that doesn’t believe in culture in the locker room, just winning — bench Orton and try Quinn and eventually Tebow as the wheels fall-off his team. The ball can only got within about a 15-20 yard radius of the QB — the playbook is thin and saturated with knock-off patriots screens.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jul 21, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

the broncos hit a wall...

…after 6 games and people figured-out their offense. Here’s a stat for you:

First 6 Games: Orton had 1 pick.
Last 10: Orton had 11 picks.

Broncos playbook = 6 games thick because Orton can’t throw it more than 15 yards.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jul 21, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Orton was fine until the O-Line started getting banged up.

With the exception of Clady, I expect the Denver O-Line to be back up to their early ‘09 form, with the addition of a pair of promising rookies, to compete for starting position and as better-than-’09 depth. Compare Orton’s protections early versus late. It was like night and day, and not so much because other teams figured them out, but because the O-Line went drastically downhill.

"I ain't lyin' 'bout nothin'."
"Oh? So what exactly are you lying about?"

by hmills110 on Jul 22, 2010 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

I see 1 injury...

to the offensive line after week 6. Ryan Harris out in week 11…so is your point that their o-line was playing hurt? Cause that’s true of EVERY offensive line in the nfl…?

I’m still not buying it — Orton is a Dilfer. If anything, Clady makes him look better than he is.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jul 22, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

rec

We run screens too, but have got a lot more possible combinations to bring them from.
Now if Nick had had run down our defense. I get that. Not the Offense.
Best RB’s
as of right now Best WR’s
as of right now the least uncertainity in our O-line
3-4 ain’t bad

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Jul 21, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was more productive but...

you have to look at it in context. Haley had no OC and didn’t do a great job spreading himself around. New system, new zone blocking scheme for a lame O-line. They did improve as the season wore on and you also have to consider the off-season changes they’ve made both from a coaching and player standpoint. Add in a full year under the new system and I find it hard to believe that Denver is in better shape than we are. Consider that McD is basically throwing out his own ZB scheme and has a LT with an injury problem. QB, RB and WR’s all stand to struggle over there IMO.

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 21, 2010 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Touche!

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 21, 2010 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Easy now...

He also loves Tebow…

Don't Fuccop Succop

by chicks_love_chiefs on Jul 21, 2010 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lol

Seriously though. If he lets Tebow sit and develop for a few years, then he might have a stout QB on his hands. If he gets an itchy trigger finger and sticks his green ass in the middle of it, he’ll ruin the kid’s chances. Hmmm… Coach McD…. I’m guessing Tebow plays this year. Hah! The kid’s dead meat.

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 21, 2010 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow I don't get the WR rankings.

I’m not sure if its a typo or what but I just don’t see how Oakland or Denver are ahead of us in the WR category. Whether you want to hate on Bowe or not he’s proven more by himself then any WR on either of those two teams and Chambers has as well.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 21, 2010 5:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Dwayne Bowe and Chris Chambers aren’t going to cut it but Heyward-Bey and Louis Murphy are? You even admit that their WR are good role players which hardly makes them good WRs. This is the most backwards thing I’ve read since I saw a Raider fan the other day say Heyward-Bey is more talented then any of the Chiefs WRs.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 21, 2010 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

agreed...

and Denver is counting on rookies who haven’t played a snap in the NFL.

People look at Bowe’s numbers from last year, and don’t take into account that he missed a few games

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6 a possibility?

by stagdsp on Jul 21, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

San Diego is relying on rookie WR's...

…in next year’s draft cause they didn’t draft a single wide-out this year.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jul 21, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Relying on rookies

that they havent even drafted yet. Wait what. They didnt draft a wideout because they have 4th and 5th year guys Floyd, Nannee, and Davis that were buried on the depth chart behind Chambers and VJack

IMO

by Foilhat on Jul 21, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

and I haven’t watched enough film of the bolts to really tell if those guys are going to fill Jackson and Chambers’ shoes, but I do know that all three of them combined for 69 catches and 3 touchdowns last year. Davis only had 6 receptions. At the very least, I think that’s a good enough reason to give d-bowe and chambers the nod over an untested unit of receivers. Also, I think AJ Smith probably should have seen this Jackson thing coming and drafted more talent at wide-out.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jul 22, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is homerism blanketed in fraudulent humility.

“Oh we’re not number 1 in anything…. but we’re number 2 in everything.”

The only truth here is that the Broncos are indeed full of number 2.

Word.

by BigRedChief on Jul 21, 2010 5:36 PM CDT reply actions  

I concur.

Left Tackle is Brandon Albert's natural position.

by Idahochief on Jul 21, 2010 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

number 2

they should permanently change to their poo and yellow colored unis

15 line signature goes here.

by kabrink on Jul 21, 2010 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

they did go 2-0 in those ugly things last season

fader nation is a conquered nation

Jerry Jones is Al Davis with a smile!

CHICAGO...Where Quaterbacks' careers go to die!

by mdierk on Jul 22, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ha.

"Everything is a lie. Except that last statement."

"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.

Quitter's People United Member #18

by Tempestuous Binary on Jul 23, 2010 1:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dude that has to be one of the funniest comments I've ever read.

But as i scrolled down i thought to myself wow we are debating our teams, and not one person has insulted the other team, then i got to you:P I’m guessing without even looking that it really get’s bad from this point on.

by CPT.Caveman on Jul 22, 2010 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thorough Write-up

I almost rec’d it just because it took a lot of effort. But I also STRONGLY disagree with your assessment of the receivers.
First, I think you WAY over estimate how much other receivers can fill-in without Vincent Jackson on the field. San Diego’s offense relies on breaking defenses down on deep routes where crosses and posts allow Rivers to use his accuracy to drop the ball over linebackers’ heads, most of the time to Jackson. This forces the linebackers to drop further back in coverage which frees-up Gates underneath. There’s really not a good answer to Rivers’ accuracy, Jackson’s strength and vertical game, and Gates’ sure hands underneath. But without Jackson, defenses can just squeeze down on Gates and stay underneath him. So it is your argument that Malcolm Floyd is going to fill Jackson’s shoes? Seems like, at the very least, a way bigger gamble than saying Chambers and Bowe will havev solid seasons.
Second, the Raiders and the Broncos ALSO have better receivers!?!? REALLY!?!? I don’t even know what to say about this. I’ll just let other people light-you-up for that backwards logic.
The WR rankings in this post would make FAR MORE SENSE if you REVERSED the order that you have them in.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jul 21, 2010 5:37 PM CDT reply actions  

I know you are in a state of denial but I would like to point out....

the defense Charles faced in week 17 was denver, not KC. You are probably correct that setting franchise records in rushing against denver’s defense may somewhat inflate his numbers.

Left Tackle is Brandon Albert's natural position.

by Idahochief on Jul 21, 2010 6:04 PM CDT reply actions  

Don't know why I even read it.

I knew who would be last long before I finished the article. Everything is based on last season. Granted, that’s all there is to go by, for someone that doesn’t follow the Chiefs daily, and considers all of the improvements and intangibles involved. I’m not going to argue anymore, it does no good. I will let the team display their improvement on the field. I just hope all of these analysts are prepared to admit they were wrong, in about December, when we are still in the playoff hunt, looking down at at least 2 teams in the division.

There once was a man from Nantucket......Nevermind.

by Racyman on Jul 21, 2010 6:28 PM CDT reply actions  

I rec'd it

Good write-up, and like all other prophecy columns is only one man’s opinion! A well stated and well thought out opinion at that, I must say. It’s always good to get a view other than the homer koolaid guzzling optimists, of which I am one. Let’s play some football and find out how this stacks up this year!

Off season for all my teams right now...sigh! Come on football!!

by Zodeman on Jul 21, 2010 6:43 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

A wise response

And +1’d

Chiefs - back in the playoffs in 2011.

by TRSChief on Jul 22, 2010 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Y so Seriousss?

This year cant be compared to last. Anything can happen. Remember the Dolphins? and the divisions weaker. Strength of scheduling this year is also weak for us. We play the NFC South. Their version of our AFC. Plus our coaches we have has to be good for atleast four games. I have us at 4-2 in our conference.

by imur#1fan on Jul 21, 2010 6:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Up until week 14, Charles only got 100+ yards once and that was against Oakland who ranked 29th.

Jane, you ignorant slut.

Other teams faced after Larry Johnson’s suspension but before week 14

Jags (6 carries avg. 6 yd.s a carry), Steelers, Chargers (93 yrds & 147 total yds ahem), Broncos wk 13 bloodbath (he got you back though)

Other quibbles:
People don’t seem to get how awful Jason Campbell will be. Everyone was down on Jamarcus that it created a massive gambler’s fallacy. Campbell really went downhill in DC when he realized the team sucked, if Oakland’s new D (also overrated) can’t carry them early he’s gonna suck and bring their receiving corps with him.

Noticeably not ranked: Offensive coordinators.

Tight end should really be separately evaluated.

How much cold comfort are Orton’s stats when the Bronco’s front has basically given him a vote of no confidence with Quinn & Tebow? Moreover with roughly 3x the starting experience as Cassell and a no long ball game we’d expect his stats to be better. Cassel’s definitely treading water as a question mark but Orton’s hit his full potential, he’s like a slightly better slightly younger Damon Huard.

by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Jul 21, 2010 6:44 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

lots to disagree with ... I think we're better than 4th in WR and QB

and that’s not even counting my love for Brodie Croyle …

that said, let’s wait til after the season and THEN hand out rankings … for now, too many “ifs” and other questions abound about all four teams ….

PLAY BALL!

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Jul 21, 2010 7:05 PM CDT reply actions  

We're always talking about team talent which is obviously, extremely important..............

but a question…..How Important is Coaching? I believe that the Chief’s have the best coaching
staff by a bunch………….and I think coaching is a huge factor…..maybe 50/50 with the talent.
What do you all think?

by jcox31mc on Jul 21, 2010 7:09 PM CDT reply actions  

coaching counts.

Mike Nolan made the Broncos suck ass defense look half decent last year.. Watch how badly they fall of this year

11101010011011101011. Yeah that just happened

by 808NaNz808 on Jul 21, 2010 7:37 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Will do.

"Everything is a lie. Except that last statement."

"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.

Quitter's People United Member #18

by Tempestuous Binary on Jul 23, 2010 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't go that far

It’s interesting enough to spark a healthy debate.

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 21, 2010 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

AP would debate a Turtle race

How fast can a Green Sloth vs a Brown Sloth change trees?

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Jul 21, 2010 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

less filling

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 21, 2010 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

This was a great post

Of course it’s a bit different than our point of view, but we’re also looking at it through slightly homerized glasses. But he makes decent predictions with reasonable facts. I would disagree with a few things, but overall this is pretty damn objective. IMO. Rec’d.

by Reno_Chief on Jul 21, 2010 7:27 PM CDT reply actions  

i appreciated the post

may not agree with it, but lets be honest. if a Chiefs fan wrote it, it would be a tad more pro-Chief. if a Raider fan wrote it, same thing, etc. i would be shocked if the Chargers fan wrote it, that one guy is really busy trying to get the nacho cheese out of his Dan Fouts jersey.

by bansky on Jul 21, 2010 7:39 PM CDT reply actions  

That is funny

but if the Chiefs werent the one dealing with blackout games last year it would have been more funny. I do not know when the last time was the Chargers didnt sell out. Blackouts HAHA thats almost as pathetic as the dude sucking on the nacho cheese stain

IMO

by Foilhat on Jul 21, 2010 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

November 7, 2004...

…against the Saints,so yeah, the fair weather fans in San Diego DO show up when the team is good. The Chiefs didn’t have a blackout for 156 straight games, started in 1991 and ended with the last home game in 2009 against the Browns.

when San Diego reaches 100 straight sellouts, then give AP a call ;)

by bansky on Jul 21, 2010 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Exactly Bansky

So I will wait until this season unfolds, and go from there.

by CPT.Caveman on Jul 22, 2010 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

how were behind campbell in QBs is beyond me

He has shown he is a legitimate bust. There were a lot of QB needy teams this off season with only two year one starters in the draft (Tebow is not one of them.) yet somehow campbell went for the same price as Matt (“worst QB in the division”) Cassels backup, Tyler Thigpen.

The broncos are definitely not the second in the division at WR, in fact I’d rate them as the worst. They currently have Eddie Royal who doesn’t look like he’s a fit for McDaniels’ system and a bunch of rookies.

Broncos should not be second at RB either. Knowshon Moreno sucked last year behind a solid offensive line, and arguing Buckhalter is a bad case because of his injury issues. For me its Oak, KC, DEN, SD

11101010011011101011. Yeah that just happened

by 808NaNz808 on Jul 21, 2010 7:55 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

really?

you think Oakland has a better running game than KC? they have a lot of potential, that’s for sure. Bush could be a top five back in the league if they actually gave him the ball and if they figure out how to use DMC (kinda like Reggie Bush) they might be on to something. but, until then, i don’t see Oakland having a better running game than KC.

by bansky on Jul 21, 2010 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

hell yeah Oaklands the best

I would bet money that Oakland finishes with a top 3 rushing game. Bush is easily the best back in the division as far being a complete back goes. As much as I like Jamaal Charles im going to hold judgement til after this season. I only rank KC above DEN and SD because of Thomas Jones

11101010011011101011. Yeah that just happened

by 808NaNz808 on Jul 21, 2010 9:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

top three?

for a team that ranked (i think) 23rd in rushing to make the top three, a LOT will have to happen, especially since they really didn’t do much to address their offensive line, except draft Veldheer and Campbell. i just don’t see how a rookie OT and a rookie OT that’s being groomed to play G are going to boost them 20 spots. i agree Bush is special, but we KNOW Charles is special (behind an equally bad line, that now has been upgraded) and we know Jones can get it done.

Bush: 218/1010/4.63
Charles: 257/1477/5.74

by bansky on Jul 21, 2010 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

oops

i was going to write something about Bush and Charles having similar numbers, but it seemed too long, so i deleted it but left their career stats, my bad.

by bansky on Jul 21, 2010 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lol

How are they going to be able to run the ball when defenses can key on this ‘Top 3’ rushing attack? It doesn’t appear many teams will be double covering Heyward-Bey any time soon.

What's the difference between jelly and jam?

by WestonK on Jul 22, 2010 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

hmm...

I agree cept with the WR’s and maybe QB’s. I just don’t get how Rookie’s are better than Bowe and Chambers. Or even Murphy, Heyward-Bey, Miller….We’ll just wait and see after this season. I have a feeling Bronco fans are going to be extremely disappointed coming in 3rd or 4th in our division behind Chargers, Chiefs and possibly Raiders.

Jamaal Charles...Enough said.

by Chiefsfan85 on Jul 21, 2010 8:00 PM CDT reply actions  

+1

Something all fans can agree on.

"Everything is a lie. Except that last statement."

"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.

Quitter's People United Member #18

by Tempestuous Binary on Jul 23, 2010 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

we will see in sept

who right

okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider

by j-man on Jul 21, 2010 8:14 PM CDT reply actions  

Nick Wright is a queef

Needs to brush up on his sports knowledge and leave the politics and gossip out. It’s like listening to Keitzman; all opinion, rare stats/facts.

What's the difference between jelly and jam?

by WestonK on Jul 22, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

you're right j-man

The nation will witness the changing of the guard in the AFC West on Monday Night.

15 line signature goes here.

by kabrink on Jul 21, 2010 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't care who wins that game, but....

I really want to see Phyllis get pounded constantly that night.

fader nation is a conquered nation

Jerry Jones is Al Davis with a smile!

CHICAGO...Where Quaterbacks' careers go to die!

by mdierk on Jul 22, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

you guys do have a bit of gauntlet to start with......

I wouldn’t be scared of cleveland and you get SF in an early game

fader nation is a conquered nation

Jerry Jones is Al Davis with a smile!

CHICAGO...Where Quaterbacks' careers go to die!

by mdierk on Jul 22, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

 or @jac @ten lol i will be watching i hope u do win i wanna see mike and mike cry

okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider

by j-man on Jul 21, 2010 8:35 PM CDT reply actions  

J-man

I’d give my left nut, if we could beat you guys both games this year.

by CPT.Caveman on Jul 22, 2010 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

don't worry, you won't lose a nut this year.

fader nation is a conquered nation

Jerry Jones is Al Davis with a smile!

CHICAGO...Where Quaterbacks' careers go to die!

by mdierk on Jul 22, 2010 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

how were behind campbell in QBs is beyond me

He has shown he is a legitimate bust. There were a lot of QB needy teams this off season with only two year one starters in the draft (Tebow is not one of them.) yet somehow campbell went for the same price as Matt (“worst QB in the division”) Cassels backup, Tyler Thigpen.

The broncos are definitely not the second in the division at WR, in fact I’d rate them as the worst. They currently have Eddie Royal who doesn’t look like he’s a fit for McDaniels’ system and a bunch of rookies.

Broncos should not be second at RB either. Knowshon Moreno sucked last year behind a solid offensive line, and arguing Buckhalter is a bad case because of his injury issues. For me its Oak, KC, DEN, SD

11101010011011101011. Yeah that just happened

by 808NaNz808 on Jul 21, 2010 9:05 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

ack mobile comment fail

11101010011011101011. Yeah that just happened

by 808NaNz808 on Jul 21, 2010 9:07 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Mathews was the 2nd back taken last year

Solid post, although I think the RB and WR rankings are Kool Aid driven. The rankings for RBs IMO should go Chiefs, Raiders, Chargers, then Broncos. Yep I think NoShow is that bad, calling Mathews injury prone and dropping the Chargers while putting the Broncos two (for RBs) is a joke. I mean Buck wrote the book on injury prone, and NoShows numbers were than LTs considering he’s a decade younger. Plus the Chargers 3rd option at tailback is listed as a FB and is a beast, his name is Tolbert. But I wouldnt expet you to know much about him.
Also KCs receivers should be ranked up their with the Chargers and the Broncos should be on the bottom of that ranking, to argue otherwise is just plain wrong.

IMO

by Foilhat on Jul 21, 2010 10:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Nick You Must Read This

The Real WR Breakdown for 2010…

First off, I will leave San Diego out of this and keep them #1, it is up in the air about whether Jackson will be playing most of the year, but with Gates at TE and their other decent receivers catching balls from the best QB by far in the Division, I will leave them at #1 for now…

So, for the other Three, I have this break down…

Because Bowe was suspended for Four Games last year, his numbers are skewed, so you must look at him, and all of the recievers at a per game average. We will look at the Top Performers on each team.

Oak: Louis Murphy: 33ypg, 4TDs
Oak: Zack Miller: 54ypg, 3 TDs

Den: Jabar Gaffney: 46ypg, 2TDs
Den: Eddie Royal: 25ypg, 0TDs

Dwayne Bowe: 54ypg, 4TDs
Chris Chambers: 68ypg, 4TDs

by Skrappy on Jul 21, 2010 10:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Wait There's More!!!

So with the numbers above, how in the World can you rank the Chiefs WRs behind the Broncos or Raiders, the two top players on each team are bested by either one of the Chiefs. Even if you try to look back at Royal’s last year, Bowe still outperformed him. It is nice to think that Dymarius Thomas might be the answer, and he might, but Dexter McCluster’s college stats are comparable and he is the Chiefs #3 right now. Eric Decker also has a good chance, but we are comparing proven NFL Talent against rookies that have never been on an NFL Field and at this point it isn’t even close!

I just do not see how you can miss such an obvious discrepancy…

by Skrappy on Jul 21, 2010 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also add to it

Bowe had a down year and still put up better numbers then any of those teams top guys and Chambers came in midseason with no knowledge of the offense or chemistry with the guy throwing the ball.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 22, 2010 3:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

NIck I want you to comment on these numbers...

I do appriciate you taking the time to write this and if you have some other information I would like to see it. For the most part it is pretty good…

I honestly think that the Chiefs and the Broncos are pretty close when it comes to the product on the field and it showed in the last game of last season. the Chiefs were finally starting to figure out the new offense and the changes the Broncos had made were starting to get figured out.

The key change moving into this season being in the draft, where the Broncos made some luxury picks that will likely yeild only limited benefits on the field this year, while the Chiefs picked up 3-4 new Starters. Combine that with a much younger team that should just start coming into its stride, I think it puts the Chiefs in the place of an Ascending Team and the Broncos as a Descending Team where the meat on similar ground. That being said, I do have the Broncos winning one more game than the Chiefs this season right now.

We Shall See!

by Skrappy on Jul 22, 2010 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

No answer?

I noticed Nick replied below…but no answer to your stats. Oh well….prolly just an intern.

What's the difference between jelly and jam?

by WestonK on Jul 22, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry it took so long to respond.

Look. I think this entire debate has gone too far. What it comes down to is personal opinion. There are too many factors that influence how a wide receiver looks. You see Chris Chambers as a solid veteran who is a reliable # 2. I see Chris Chambers as a player who the Chargers cut and he had an uncommonly good year. It all comes down to opinion. You think Dwayne Bowe is gonna have a huge year, but I certainly doubt that. Everything is going to be viewed differently because people have different teams that they follow.

KC Depth Chart
Bowe
Chambers
McCluster
Urban

Denver Depth Chart
Gaffney
Royal
Lloyd
Stokley

Denver’s receivers look good to me, but KC’s probably look better to you. There are too many factors, some of them are: Past years, quarterbacks, other recievers, other teams. It’s impossible to argue. So let’s just forget about it.

I should have done
1. San Diego
2a. Denver
2a. Kansas City
2a. Oakland.

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder

by Nick Cast on Jul 22, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Youre too biased really to offer accurate analysis and alot of posters here are.

In one sentence you see Chambers as a guy who was cut having an uncommonly good year with the logic behind that comment being that he hasnt really played very well over the last few years of his career. But then using that same logic wouldnt that then make Bowe a #1 guy who had an uncommonly bad year? Can’t have inconsistencies in your logic and then expect people to respect the opinion.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 22, 2010 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

GB I actually respect that he has an opinion

and the ability to Mea Culpa when called. Nick really did nothing except share his opinion like we all do. Most of us wouldn’t put it out there on a competitiors site.
We all learned more about the Broncos and the other teams in the discussion.

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Jul 22, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

No problem with opinions. Its what drives the offseason otherwise we'd be bored.

Inconsistency in opinions is what throws me off I guess.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 22, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I never said Bowe wasn't a #1 guy

I said Bowe had a bad year and I have doubts that he is going to have a huge bounce back year like many on AP think.

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder

by Nick Cast on Jul 22, 2010 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly my point.

So why wouldnt you think that Bowe might have a bounce back year when you use the same logic that Chambers won’t because last year was “uncommonly good”.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 22, 2010 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have doubts that Bowe won't bounce back

because when he got those 1,000 yard seasons, Matt Cassel wasn’t his qb. Tony Gonzales was also on the team taking away some of the pressure. Bowe didn’t develop any chemistry with Cassel last season and I have my doubts that he is going to bounce back.

It would be one thing if Bowe had those 1000 yard seasons, had a bad year, and was preparing for 2010 with the same offense. Then I would think he just had an off year and will do better this year. However, he had a bad year in a new offense. It’s not unreasonable for me to question if the new offense doesn’t utilize Bowe the same way that the old one did.

I say that Chambers had an uncommonly good year because the last time he got 600+ yard was back in 2006 and he was with Miami. So I have my doubts that he is going to repeat that production

Chambers and Bowe aren’t comparable because their situations aren’t the same.

I have my doubts about Chambers because of his history
I have my doubts about Bowe because of team changes.

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
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by Nick Cast on Jul 22, 2010 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bowes catch rate was the same for three seasons straight

around 56 %. Now in 2007 and 2008 he played 16 games.
only 11 in 2009
83 targeted passes and 47 catches for a 56.6 completion rate and 589 yards
IF it was 16 games
140 targetd passes and 79 catches for a 56.6 completion rate and 994 yards

check 2008 and 2007 and you will see that he catches 56 or so percent in a Herm offense or a Haley offense. With Huard, Thigpen or Cassel throwing at him.

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Jul 22, 2010 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have a question

kind off topic

but is it widely assumed here that KC is going to be a run-first team?

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
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by Nick Cast on Jul 22, 2010 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Last year people assumed that we would be a pass first team because of Haley.

And a “no TE” team because we dealt TG. The only thing thats safe to assume is that its not safe to assume.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 22, 2010 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I fell in that one before

It depends on Cassel IMO
if he can play like 2008 we are a pass first
if he plays like 2009 we are a run first

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Jul 22, 2010 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Where are the two guys who threw him the ball the first 2 seasons?

Nothing wrong with having doubts about it but the reasoning for those doubts just seem way out in left field to me.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 22, 2010 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

So if Bowe was a receiver for Peyton Manning or Rivers or Cutler

would he be different? Maybe Calvin Johnson-ish type thought

Ninja Ass

by Steve_Chiefs on Jul 22, 2010 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re to Nick

Maybe Chambers just wasn’t being used correctly in SD. He was stellar in Miami then he came to SD and didn’t see too many targets. He showed himself to be pretty reliable last year and helped us pull off the upset against Pittsburgh. It happens all the time. Players go to other teams and perform better in their new system. Believe me, us Chiefs fans know all about it.

Maybe he is just better suited in our system?

by Chiefsfan1970 on Jul 22, 2010 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem is that your doubts always favor the Broncos

And hurt eveyone else at the same time…

You have doubts about Bowe’s Chemestry with Cassel in their first year together, but no qualms about the 350 yards that Royal caught from Orton in their first year?

You have doubts about how Chambers was cut by SD and they played solid for KC, but it is perfectly reasonable for Gaffney to be cut by the Patriots and be a Superstar for Denver?

These lines cross all over the place with no comon logic to tie them together. The problem everyone sees is that, it all appears way too biased.

I live in Denver, wouldn’t live anywhere else, so I know what is going on here, and in KC.

Royal is an Exceptional #3, the reason I say that is because he almost always has to be covered in the Slot. I like him alot, I would take him over Chambers any day, but he is not even close to Bowe, he cannot even play the same position on the field. Gaffney is also a solid #3 who can fill in once and awhile at #2, but that is his limit. The only game of concequence he had was against KC, where Brandon Marshall was out as well as KC’s Brandon Flowers (Gaffeny got 30% of his entire Seasons Yards in that one game)… Not much to inspire confidence over Chambers… Chambers took over the KC passing attack for several games in Bowe’s presence and absence. Gaffney just played in the band, then the band got desperate in the last week…

by Skrappy on Jul 23, 2010 12:46 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

That is a good point

except I do have my qualms about Royal fitting into the offense. I never said I didn’t. I definitely am worried that Royal won’t fit into the offense. I’m hopeful, but I definitely have my worries.

I never said anywhere that Jabar would be a superstar. Not once. I would never say that because Gaffney is not a superstar player.

See the problem here is, you saw what I posted about Chambers and Bowe and assumed that I don’t have my own fears about my own team. I do have my fears. Plenty of them. Will Royal fit into the offense? Will Gaffney be a solid, reliable contributor? so on and so forth.

So please don’t call me biased unless you know all the facts. I have doubts that Bowe fits into KC’s offense just like Royal. I have doubts that Chambers will keep up his production just like I have doubts that Gaffney will be able to step up and be a #2.

When I come over here, I talk about the Chiefs. I don’t talk about the Broncos. Most people assume that since I"m a bronco fan that I think everything is great and we are on our way to the Super Bowl when that is not the case. Don’t lump me in with other bronco fans you have encountered. Just because I don’t talk about my worries doesn’t mean that I don’t have them.

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
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by Nick Cast on Jul 23, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks For Taking the Time

Putting this together or even just typing it up takes a considerable amount of work, so thank you for doing it. If you didn’t we wouldn’t even have anything to talk about…

I did use some hyperbole in my last comment. I apologize for that. I also just realized that this was your fanpost. I thought you were one of the SB Nation Editors for the Mile High Report site. I would not have come down on you so hard had I realized that earlier.

As a Fan, you are definately entitled to your opinion and I understand you Passion for the Broncos. I Have been a Chiefs Fan all my life, but lived in Oakland for 7 years before I moved to Denver 8 years ago…

Once again, I appriciate the effort you put in to the article and look forward to future posts.

by Skrappy on Jul 23, 2010 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

It was my pleasure Skrappy

I totally see your point of view and if I were you, I would have defended my team just as you have. No hard feelings at all. I look forward to talking more football with you in the future.

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder

by Nick Cast on Jul 24, 2010 1:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is totally biased.

You’re telling me that NONE of Denvers groups fall below 2nd?
It’s quite obvious to just about everyone that Denvers wide receivers are the worst in the afc west. They were 2nd WITH Marshall but without him it’s a no brained…
Denvers running backs on my list would be 3rd, maybe fourth. Buckhalter is old and Moreno put up very mediocre numbers with a good run-blocking o-line.
Denver also has the 3rd best qb. Yes, Orton had a good statistical year last year but that was with a good o-line and Brandon Marshall so statistics can definitely lie. If you are looking at the individual player and not his statistics Orton is simply not as good as cassell. I think it’s kind of a joke that you would put Campbell in front of Cassell ski think Cassell is the 2nd bestqb in the afc west.

by masonsixer on Jul 21, 2010 10:58 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't think we can argue at this point who is the best QB

As of last year Orton was the best of the two. So maybe we should wait until this season unfolds before we start bragging Cassel up.

by CPT.Caveman on Jul 22, 2010 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

No he wasn't.

Cassel did not have Brandon Marshall to throw to last year and he also didn’t have Ryan Clady to protect him. You can’t use stats to compare these guys considering the difference in the players around him last year.

by masonsixer on Jul 22, 2010 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

So your saying Cassel is better because Orton threw to Marshall and had Clady as an LT while Cassel didn't?

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
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by Nick Cast on Jul 22, 2010 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't generalise.

"Everything is a lie. Except that last statement."

"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.

Quitter's People United Member #18

by Tempestuous Binary on Jul 23, 2010 1:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

We understand that that doesn’t mean all Denver fans.

If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen

by JComp11 on Jul 23, 2010 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Okay, then. Good to know.

"All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players."

"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.

Quitter's People United Member #18

by Tempestuous Binary on Jul 23, 2010 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Clady’s overrated.

If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen

by JComp11 on Jul 22, 2010 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

NO THATS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING!

what is so hard about this to understand? What I’m saying is that you can’t just say, “Orton is better just look at the stats”. Because ofcourse Ortons numbers will be better than Cassel’s… Look at it this way, do you think that if Orton and Cassel had swapped o-lines and Wide receivers for 2009 that we would have been looking at the same statistics? No way, Cassel’s numbers would have been much higher than Orton’s. So all I’m saying is to not use stats to compare these qb’s, it just doesn’t work.

by masonsixer on Jul 22, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

You can blame it on what ever you want, but the point is that Cassel didn't produce.

I could say our WR’s dropped 50 balls, but it’s still a excuse. Lets just wait and see what happens this year. IMO Cassel proves all the doubters wrong, as well as our team, but at this point were all just guessing.

by CPT.Caveman on Jul 22, 2010 12:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think SD's running problems were LT's fault.

And I think Sproles is probably more durable than you think. But I don’t think installing a new RB is the answer for San Diego. They could pass-block, but they sucked at opening holes. Not a good place for a RB.

But if their line doesn’t show marked improvement, what I said about Sproles will seem to be proven wrong, because he’ll be taking a beating from d-linemen in his own backfield every week.

"I ain't lyin' 'bout nothin'."
"Oh? So what exactly are you lying about?"

by hmills110 on Jul 22, 2010 12:33 AM CDT reply actions  

San Diego's O-line number one last year?

With probably the worst rushing attack in the NFL? Based off of some BS nfl.com ranking? You wrote a lot of words to have something so glaringly wrong right off the bat.

by Narghile on Jul 22, 2010 8:00 AM CDT reply actions  

also major injuries across their o-line

and a hasbeen Ladainian running the ball… and tripping on his own legs, i dont blame that on the line.

Life is like riding a bicycle, to keep your balance, you must keep moving.-Einstein

by cameronm on Jul 23, 2010 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

All of these teams with the exception of Cincinnati ranked in the bottom 10 in run defense. Buffalo(30), Cleveland(28), Denver(26). Cincinnati ranked 7th and gave up an average of 98 rushing yards a game. In the game against KC, Charles ran for 102 yards. So Charles was on par with what the Cincinnati defense gave up each game.

Same ol’ argument against Charles. Once again, I will point to Football Outsiders’ Defense-adjusted stats, DVOA and DYAR which have Charles ranked 4th and 2nd.

If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen

by JComp11 on Jul 22, 2010 8:26 AM CDT reply actions  

I just wish that, for once, someone who makes an argument against Charles because his big games came against “bad” defenses would respond to these stats. This is probably the fifth time this off season that I’ve quoted these stats and they never get a response.

If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen

by JComp11 on Jul 22, 2010 7:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

JComp

I’m sorry I didn’t respond. As you can see, there were a lot of people here who did not like what I posted.

I don’t know much about DVOA or DYAR so I couldn’t come back with an argument without sounding like a fool trying to fake my way through a debate.

Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder

by Nick Cast on Jul 22, 2010 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

It’s all good. You can’t expect to post something like this over here and get hugs and kisses. It was a good write up but obviously a lot of people disagree.

For explanations on the stats, both worth learning about, check out Football Outsiders. They’re simple to understand and are based on extended breakdowns of every play of every game during the season. They are more based on the situations and not as subjective as something like Total Yards or Touchdowns.

If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen

by JComp11 on Jul 22, 2010 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

huh? lol Good read but I disagree with a lot of things
Week 16 against Cincinnati, and week 17 against Kansas City.

In the game against KC, Charles ran for 102 yards

by tomahawk44 on Jul 22, 2010 8:36 AM CDT reply actions  

Interesting take on RB's

You seem to really promote Moreno, yet diss Charles because of the final games against weak talent. Yet, Moreno played against Cincy, Cleveland, Oakland (twice), and the Chiefs (twice). All defenses towards the bottom (except Cincy, but you used them as an example). Moreno’s results? 362 yards with a 3.62 yard average. Okay, but nothing compared to Charles. Moreno never had a 100+ yard game, AND of his 7 TD’s, 4 were against KC.

Not sure how you seem to think he is so much better than Charles. While you grudgingly ranked KC as the best rushing attack, your narrative clearly favored Denver. You seem to refer to stats as convenient. While I too have questions about Charles against quality opponents, Moreno has certainly not proven to be better.

by BinSC on Jul 22, 2010 10:07 AM CDT reply actions  

Interestingly enough, Moreno is ranked 35th and 37th according to his DYAR and DVOA. I’m not a huge believer in basing my opinion largely on stats, but these both take into account the defenses played and more of the “big picture” than most other stats kept in the NFL.

If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen

by JComp11 on Jul 22, 2010 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

read my post

on AFC west offense

okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider

by j-man on Jul 22, 2010 9:07 PM CDT reply actions  

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