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Should the Chiefs have made a pass at Jammal Brown?


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The Washington Redskins traded a third or fourth round pick for Saints offensive tackle Jammal Brown. He's only 29 and went to the Pro Bowl in 2006 and 2008. He hadn't missed a game in his NFL career until a hip and sports hernia knocked him out of all 16 games last year.

Should Scott Pioli have tried to make a move on Jammal Brown?

Obviously this is trade involves a certain degree of risk and the Redskins aren't exactly known for their personnel moves. But not too long ago Jammal Brown was the guy people mentioned as the prototypical left tackle.

The guy is a mountain with ballerina feet. In the 2008 season he was best run blocking left tackle in the NFL and only allowed 3 sacks. Because he's quick and has high football intelligence he's considered an ideal tackle for a zone blocking scheme.

Knowing that tackles can play well into their 30s, could Brown have been the answer to the Chiefs leaky RT position Ryan O'Callaghan's been holding down?

Hell wouldn't he be nice insurance policy if Branden Albert got hurt?

If anyone has any insight into the extent of his injuries that would make for some lively discussion too.

Poll
What would you trade for Jammal Brown to be a Chief?
Worth a 3rd round pick
53 votes
Worth a 4th round pick
102 votes
I'm fine with Albert and O'Callaghan
106 votes

261 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

Comment 84 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I was wondering when someone would ask this

It’s a valid question.. he’s a “franchise LT”, and will command a huge contract

I think KC is pretty happy with their starting OTs… but they can’t be happy with their DEPTH

I would be in favor of bringing in a Tackle that could play on either side, or potentially compete at RT.

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most all major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6?

by stagdsp on Jun 21, 2010 2:30 PM CDT reply actions  

yah, he's a guy who'd be wanting that starter's contract, even though he might not start ...

he’d have been awesome dpth, no question of that … but I think if Pioli and The Team really had wanted the guy, they would have worked something out long ago

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Jun 21, 2010 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we even knew he was available

Gaither has been available quite awhile

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think we should all get used to the idea...

This team isn’t going to be built on the big name, franchise, huge mauler OTs…

The ZB scheme, and Pioli’s history would indicate, to me, that the Chiefs will continue to try to find diamonds in the rough to build an OL unit that plays well together… NOT bring in superstar #1 pick, Pro bowl-caliber guys in an attempt to buy a premium line.

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most all major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6?

by stagdsp on Jun 21, 2010 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would only disagree hen we need that final piece

Pioli didn’t have to get Lilja and Weigmann.
Complimentary pieces building towards something.
I think maybe Colin Brown might end up a wasted pick, sad to say :(

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

You may be right...

Brown may well end up being a wasted pick because at the time we were using a huge, mauler, power-running philosophy but later switched to the zone scheme when it produced much better results and fit our RB better. Brown may be the odd man out but at least it was only one draft pick rather than a couple. At least we are decided on a scheme now and we can draft accordingly.

by KCChiefsfan75 on Jun 23, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure seems that way, KCChiefsfan75.

But they can afford to be patient with him. And maybe smash-mouth is part of the longer-term plan.

by hmills110 on Jun 27, 2010 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sure, real good philosophy

the kind that’s more than likely going to keep the Chiefs at the bottom of the NFL’s barrel. Don’t believe me? The Chiefs have drafted only drafted two (2) O-Lineman in the top 3 rounds of the draft over the last 10 years and look what’s happened since Willie Roaf and Will Shields retired. A blazing 10 wins in the last 3 years.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Asamoah was a 3rd round pick

We have turned a page. The Chiefs fans would have filleted Pioli if he took a Tackle in the 1st and the 2nd tier crop was not all that.

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 8:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Asamoah was one of those 2 guys

that I was referring to. And it’s a good start and I hope Asamoah wins a starting job soon. From what I’ve seen of him on film and from what I’ve read, he packs more punch than Smokin’ Joe.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Obviously, any player like this who can improve the ballclub...

and is economically viable, is worth pursueing.

Great O-Line guys are like socks. You can never have too many of them.

"The towels were so thick there....I could hardly close my suitcase." ~Yogi Berra~

Jerrell Powe for Chiefs NT in 1st round of the 2011 NFL draft: From Ole Miss; Height: 6-2; Weight: 330; Projected 40 Time: 5.35; Projected Round (2011): 1-2; The top nose tackle in the 2011 NFL Draft, Jerrell Powe collected 12 Tackles for Loss and two sacks in 2009, earning All-SEC Second Team honors.

by TheK-man on Jun 21, 2010 2:56 PM CDT reply actions  

well, I have too many ...

socks

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Jun 21, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

no you don't.....buy more...Wal-mart is open 24 hours.

"The towels were so thick there....I could hardly close my suitcase." ~Yogi Berra~

Jerrell Powe for Chiefs NT in 1st round of the 2011 NFL draft: From Ole Miss; Height: 6-2; Weight: 330; Projected 40 Time: 5.35; Projected Round (2011): 1-2; The top nose tackle in the 2011 NFL Draft, Jerrell Powe collected 12 Tackles for Loss and two sacks in 2009, earning All-SEC Second Team honors.

"I am a Physicist and a Cosmologist and although I cannot move, and must speak through a computer, in my mind............... I am free". ~Stephen Hawking~

by TheK-man on Jun 22, 2010 2:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think we should keep the pick, and use it in next years draft.

Imo we still need all the picks we can get for next year. Lets see…….we need a NT,C,WR, and could need a RT,LG,MLB, and a OLB mostly for depth, but maybe for a need.

by CPT.Caveman on Jun 21, 2010 3:13 PM CDT reply actions  

What is with the draft talk?

We haven’t even started Training camp :P

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

so...

this is all for naught, right?

New body. Same soul.

by kabrink on Jun 21, 2010 3:58 PM CDT reply actions  

unless Pioli gets him from the Redskins for a song ... yup

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
"It's always easier to sell 'em some shit than it is to give 'em the truth" - Shel Silverstein, The Perfect High
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo! 5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Jun 21, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Coach Waters?

I couldn’t find the exact quote, but I remember that at the end of last season, Brian Waters had very positive things to say about the progression of the offensive line. He even made specific recommendations that not much, if anything, needed to be done to improve the line.

I think this recommendation has been taken to heart by Pioli and Haley because we have made smart but measured improvements to the offensive line this off-season. We haven’t sacrificed the future to quick improvements to the offensive line, we’ve added-on primarily at other positions.

Not going after Brown, I think, was an extension of that philosophy. I don’t think Pioli is really looking at the offensive line as an emergency because of their development in the second half of the season.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jun 21, 2010 5:38 PM CDT reply actions  

You gotta be kidding !!

Development of the O-Line over the 2nd half of the season? Improvements not needed? Improvements made in the off-season? That’s absolute bullsh!t !! I don’t care what Brian Waters says.They didn’t play nobody except SD and maybe Pitt over the 2nd half of the season. Simply go back and watch the games. Cassel was throwing the ball as soon as it was snapped to him and looked like a cat on a hot tin roof & the result was 3 TD’s and 9 INT’s in the last 5 games. Charles gained a lot of yards because of his own running skills — which are similar to that of HOF RB Gale Sayers — not because the O-Line developed in the 2nd half of the season. The last 5 games the Chiefs played — except for Cincinnati — the Chiefs played against teams ranked 26th or worse against the run & they still lost 4 of those 5 games. The additions of Weigmann & Lilja do NOT count as upgrades. Weigmann might not even be a starter, and Lilja is simply a replacement for Wade Smith, not an upgrade and Lilja was let go by the Colts because he’s an injury liability. The only potential upgrade is 3rd round draftee Jon Asamoah. The only 2 guys on the current Chiefs O-Line that any of the other teams in the NFL would consider are Albert at OG ( and I predict Albert will bolt the Chiefs in a couple of years and become an All-Pro Guard on someone elses’ O-Line, as he’s playing out of position at LT ) and Asamoah. As for the rest of the current Chiefs O-Line, Waters is ready for retirement and the others will be out of the NFL in a couple of years and probably delivering pizza to your doorstep.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 6:52 PM CDT reply actions  

Well I agree with almost all of it

but the Pizza part. Then again an offensive line is an aquired taste and we are not done aquiring yet. Say we do decide that Albert is a fine guard, teamed with Asamoah, and O’Callaghan. We draft a Center and get a FA Left Tackle. We have done it before.
The O-line can come together quickly when the rest of the Chess Pieces are in place.

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

O'Callaghan can't pass block

and what FA Left Tackle are you referring to? Jeff Criswell in 1995 is the only one that I know of as the Chiefs had to give up a 3rd round draft pick to acquire Willie Roaf. And what’s the matter with drafting a stellar LT prospect ( Russell Okung ) when he’s available to you?

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am not against drafting one in the next draft.

Albert has not been proven one way or another till this upcoming year is done.
I would still take Berry over Okung.
I would still take McClain over Okung.
I would take Okung over any of the rest of the draft as it played out.

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed about the next draft

Have a look here at the OT list for 2011 — the top 3 are physically gifted monsters.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/TSX/2011_OT

As for the last draft, for me it would have been Okung>Berry>McClain.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

I ahve no problem with those names

Carimi a Damn Badger, what more can you want on the O-line :)
Solder is awesome, Athletic, you could even put him in a Tightend for three Tackles/three TE sets
A blue collar guy from Pitt or BC or Auburn.

See that might be part of the plan, Berry wasn’t available next year

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Best case scenario, of course

is that Albert does blossom into a Pro-Bowl caliber LT. That would of course free up the Chiefs brass to look at another position with the 1st pick in 2011. And Berry was needed to help with the Chiefs pass defense. But if Albert has a repeat of last year at LT, it’s time to put him at Guard and draft one of those guys.

Sounds like a good plan that you are suggesting, there :)

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

1st or 2nd pick in 2011 needs to be our NT posiition.

"The towels were so thick there....I could hardly close my suitcase." ~Yogi Berra~

Jerrell Powe for Chiefs NT in 1st round of the 2011 NFL draft: From Ole Miss; Height: 6-2; Weight: 330; Projected 40 Time: 5.35; Projected Round (2011): 1-2; The top nose tackle in the 2011 NFL Draft, Jerrell Powe collected 12 Tackles for Loss and two sacks in 2009, earning All-SEC Second Team honors.

"I am a Physicist and a Cosmologist and although I cannot move, and must speak through a computer, in my mind............... I am free". ~Stephen Hawking~

by TheK-man on Jun 22, 2010 2:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, a NT is needed

in the 1st or 2nd round next year. Can’t run the 3-4 without a stellar NT. See Cleveland game last year if anyone wants any further proof.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 22, 2010 2:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I looked and didn't see a few players

S.Wisnewski C isn’t on the list at all for C’s. Plus my pick in the first round would be Jerrell Powe NT then address o-line needs.

by CPT.Caveman on Jun 21, 2010 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

If things actually go the Chiefs way

We have many possibilities instead of being painted into a corner

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wisnewski was listed at Guard

and listed 2nd on that list. I agree NT is a need. It depends on where the Chiefs are drafting as to whether they should go LT on Offense or NT on Defense.

As Steve_Chiefs has pointed out it might be silly to talk about next years draft, but then again, we are thinking in terms of the Chiefs going to the Super Bowl and winning it. I’d love for that to happen this year, BUT, I’m a realist and I really believe that teams like the Ravens, Colts, Jets, Patriots are too tough for the Chiefs right now. But if the Chiefs draft well, then that will change.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't ever use me as an example to stop a discussion

I live to mispell, emote, and misread any situation.
AP as a community sets me on the proper path.
Till we need/want to go off the beaten path.

Do that Dempsey :)

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok thanks, but isn't Wisnewski a Center.

The question i find myself asking is will, Pioli draft another defensive linemen in the first round, that’s a lot of money tied up in our front 3. IMO Center is a position that needs to be addressed in 2011 too, but he needs to be someone who can step in and play fast, so he has to be one of the first few taken or even first 2 taken. Man do i hope these guys step it up this year so we don’t have so many holes to fill next year.

by CPT.Caveman on Jun 22, 2010 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, I believe Wisnewski is a Center

and yes, the Chiefs could use another man like Tim Grunhard. They drafted him in the 2nd round in 1990 and he split time with Mike Webster in his rookie year and then started the next 10 years. He’s missed very much.( at least by me ).

by brdempsey69 on Jun 22, 2010 12:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes we got spoiled by our o-line for a lot of years.

It’s tough to take sometimes, when you think back to what we had then, and what we have now.

by CPT.Caveman on Jun 22, 2010 12:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

and it seems like throughout their history as the O-Line goes, so goes the team in general. When the O-Line has been good, they’ve been at least competitive. But when the O-Line has not been good, the team in general has suffered. Last season was a perfect example, even in games where the Chiefs defense played very well ( Cincinnati ) and whether any of us like it or not, the upcoming season does hinge on whether or not the O-Line steps up, just like you mentioned.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 22, 2010 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

I might also add

that Chiefs O-Line coach Bill Muir was lobbying for the Chiefs brass to draft Russell Okung. You can read about it here:

http://www.kcchiefsblog.com/draft/chiefs-coach-wanted-russell-okung

Would he have been doing that if he was satisfied with Branden Alberts’ play at LT?
NO WAY !!

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am sure that Gary Gibbs was lobbying for McClain

Weis might have wanted the ND QB.
We all wanted something :)

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

True but the real point is

people were saying before the draft that the Chiefs didn’t need a LT, which wasn’t true and judging by what I saw when I reviewed the Chiefs games — Albert has been proven and he needs to move inside to Guard. The Chiefs insistence at keeping him at LT is hurting both them & Albert. I doubt things will be any different for Albert this year.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

we'll see

I saw a guy in Albert who has everything you’d want in a LT, especially for this scheme, and will only get better as he grows more comfortable in it.

BTW, were you ALWAYS this down on BA? Or, were you, along with everyone else, firmly ON his bandwagon as a rookie, and OFF his bandwagon after 6 games of 2009?

this should be the most exciting Chiefs team in years! Most all major needs filled with playmakers, and the league's best coaching staff... 10-6?

by stagdsp on Jun 21, 2010 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't quote me out of context..

..and there never was any bandwagon of any kind. Albert was a standout Guard at Virgina and what I said was he is playing out of position. If you saw a guy in Albert who has everything you’d want in a LT, then you were obviously looking at a photograph and you weren’t watching the games. Go watch the Cleveland game and keep a close eye on the Browns LT Joe Thomas. It’s no comparison. Like it or not, Albert isn’t even remotely close to Thomas and playing LT simply isn’t working for Albert — and that’s not being down on him, that’s telling it like it is. Albert will probably bolt the Chiefs in a couple of years and become a standout Guard on some other teams O-Line.

BTW, do you ALWAYS piss on your own head and tell yourself it’s raining?

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

The whole league is looking for athletic mobile LT's now

almost half the league will have an OLB riding hard on the LT for a sack.
Did Dumerville own Albert? No
Albert was having issues early in the season, adjusting to the scheme and the new weight. Once he got a grip on Technique wins over Girth he did much better. He has had another year of learning the technique now.

Bill Muir would be a fool to not want to line up Okung/Albert/Waters across the front of the left flank or move Albert to the Right tackle. It was all priorities and a position coach can lobby for the best in his position slot.

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not down on Albert

as much as I’m concerned for him. And Dumervil only lined up across from Albert for about 10 snaps at the most in the two games combined against Denver, so to say that Albert shut him out is not correct and Dumervil did get a couple of pressures against Albert in the 1st game, one which caused an INT. And over the 2nd half of the season, Albert still gave up a lot of pressures & got called for penalties.

If Albert blossoms at the LT position this year, then we can write last year off. But, on the other hand, if it’s a repeat of last year and the Chiefs suffer through another losing season and are drafting in the top 5 — then there’s absolutely no excuse for not drafting a blue-chip LT prospect with the first pick in 2011.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

of Course if Cassel stinks the joint up then we might need to use that pick there. I still feel that Albert is going to have a place on this line for many years to come. Unless he just doesn’t like KC.

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem that I'm seeing with Cassel

is that he wasn’t getting the time to survey the field and find open receivers the way that opposing QB’s were against the Chiefs. That’s a good enough reason right there for wanting to upgrade the O-Line as well as upgrading the Pass-Rush on the defensive side of the ball.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 21, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pioli made

an informed decision.
Just like last year it might bite him again. If we get to around 8 wins we are still moving forward as a team with less questions to answer. We got all season to second guess.
That is half the fun of AP.

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 21, 2010 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not funny anymore, i can't take.

Somebody fast forward to the season already, geez.

by CPT.Caveman on Jun 21, 2010 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

i sort of thought...

that his problem was holding on to the ball too long. and that the protection was there (as long as we can realistically expect it to hold up) but the problem was that cassel wasn’t finding open receivers. especially in the first half of the season. now i’m not saying cassel is not to blame partially, but everything changed DRASTICALLY when chambers showed up. open receivers as a result of adding one that can catch and get open. you could even sort of see us revert to the ‘early us’ in that stretch when bowe was out. we just didnt have the guys that could get open

if rhymes were valiums, i'd be comfortably numb
My Chiefs Illustrations | Tweet at me

by Chris Sembower on Jun 23, 2010 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, brdempsey69, there were many who didn't think much of 2009's top tier.

And spending a 1st-rounder on a less-than-elite NFL OT is not good value. Pioli prides himself and his scouts on knowing the difference between hype and real ability in the big men.

by hmills110 on Jun 27, 2010 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who's talking about 2009's Tier?

and who is this “many” that didn’t think this years 2010 crop of OT’s was any good? Gil Brandt said this was one of the better OT classes to come along in quite some time. And I don’t care if Pioli prides himself in picking his ass with his toothbrush, if he really knew the difference between hype & the real ability of big men, would he have selected TJ over BJ Raji last year?

by brdempsey69 on Jun 28, 2010 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Very deep. Top end not elite. Numerous writers and observers felt this way about the 2010 class (I got the year wrong).

I’m sure Russell Okung is a very good tackle. He just wasn’t worth the #3 pick to the Chiefs this year.

When LB coaches chat b4 the draft, I’m sure they talk about the best LBs in the current class, and how they lust after them.

You found a nice reference. Kudos. Please forgive me if I don’t find it Earth-shattering.

by hmills110 on Jun 28, 2010 4:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Okung not worth the #5 pick ?

BULLSHIT !! You can’t be serious. If Detroit had taken him at #2, nobody would have questioned it. He was worth #5 to the Chiefs and if Berry had been taken in the top 4 ( which wasn’t likely because almost all the teams out there are too smart to take a Safety that high & notice that Cleveland didn’t try to trade up with Washington to take Berry ) then Okung would have been the pick at #5. I don’t believe for one minute that the Chiefs brass ever even remotely thought Russell Okung wasn’t worth the #5 pick.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 29, 2010 3:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oops. Again, #5 pick, not #3 pick. I had another 2009 flashback, apparently.

I am serious. And I’m tired of your abusive tone, so this is my last reply. When you learn to stop shouting, you’ll find me more receptive.

There were numerous people who didn’t think the top tier this year was top tier in terms of the NFL. Mayock, for example, felt there were 8 tackles in the top tier, but that the top tier didn’t consist of any clearly elite NFL tackles. Some good prospects, there, but more risk involved in taking them that high, which tilts the value-meter against them.

I agree that nobody would’ve blinked if Detroit, Washington and St. Louis all took tackles with their first picks. By the same token, there were factors that had ME gun-shy of just taking OT this year in the top 5 or 10. It might be the best way to try to get things right, but the risk of getting it wrong, and hitching your wagon to a less-than-elite tackle for franchise-tackle money had me looking for less downside. So I was fine with the Eric Berry pick.

by hmills110 on Jun 29, 2010 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would tend to agree with Brian here.

"The towels were so thick there....I could hardly close my suitcase." ~Yogi Berra~

Jerrell Powe for Chiefs NT in 1st round of the 2011 NFL draft: From Ole Miss; Height: 6-2; Weight: 330; Projected 40 Time: 5.35; Projected Round (2011): 1-2; The top nose tackle in the 2011 NFL Draft, Jerrell Powe collected 12 Tackles for Loss and two sacks in 2009, earning All-SEC Second Team honors.

"I am a Physicist and a Cosmologist and although I cannot move, and must speak through a computer, in my mind............... I am free". ~Stephen Hawking~

by TheK-man on Jun 22, 2010 2:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

You may be right...

…that the Chief’s OL is not great. I never said they were. I said they got better through measured improvements. To say that they got NO BETTER during the off-season and last half of 09, one would have to believe the following:
1. That the Chiefs organization gave Lilja a physical, found that he was probably going to get injured and hired him anyway.
2. That the Chiefs had a glaring need at OT so dire that fans can easily see it yet NO ONE in the Chiefs organization who watches film and evaluates talent for a living noticed.
3. That JC was the first RB in the history of the game to get better at running the ball as his offensive line got worse. (“Charles gained a lot of yards because of his own running skills…not because the O-Line developed in the 2nd half of the season.” REALLY?!?! You don’t need an O-line to run the ball in the NFL, just a HB?!?! Well why don’t we just draft more of those??)
4. That 15 sacks in the 2nd half of the season was not an improvement over 27 given up in the first.

I’m not going to be convinced that they didn’t get better when the offense was abysmal at mid-season and ended-up the 11th overall rushing offense. Did we win a lot? No! But we’ve got other problems that probably caused a lot of those losses (e.g. special teams vs. the browns). Lilja was an OG in the league’s best passing attack for years. Asamoah was a spectacular value in the 3rd round — he was one of the better OGs in the draft and everyone was surprised he fell that far. This off-season helped, even though we didn’t drop everything to get the biggest name available (Okung).
Lets not make perfect the enemy of the good — we don’t need 5 all-pro’s on the offensive line BEFORE we start improving the rest of the team.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jun 22, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

One would not have to believe any of what you posted

they simply need to watch the games.

1. The Colts let Lilja go without so much as giving him a tender. Why would they do that? He is not an upgrade, he is a replacement for Wade Smith, lost via FA.

2. This statement about NO ONE in the Chiefs organization noticed a need for OT is absolute bullsh!t. Here’s the proof:

http://www.kcchiefsblog.com/draft/chiefs-coach-wanted-russell-okung

And don’t try telling me that it’s because position coaches always lobby for players at the positions they coach, because that’s not the point. The point is Bill Muir was lobbying for Russell Okung to be drafted with 1st pick. Would he have been doing that if he was satisfied with the current OT’s the Chiefs have? NO WAY ! He would more than likely ask for depth to be drafted in later rounds. The need was noticed in the organization, they’ve simply taken the gamble that the current guys will step it up this year & decided to address other areas — most noticeably Pass Defense with 3 DB’s drafted.

3. Nobody said anything about JC being the first RB to get better at running the ball while his O-Line got worse. Don’t know where you are deriving that from. Overall, the statements you made in your 3rd paragraph are nothing more than a phony argument that you pulled out of your arse. I said that Charles running skills accounted for a lot of his yardage, along with the fact that the Chiefs played some of the worst run defenses in the league over the 2nd half of the season. As for this statement - “You don’t need an O-line to run the ball in the NFL, just a HB?!?! Well why don’t we just draft more of those??” - nobody implied any such thing, that’s something you’re pulling out of your arse. Charles is an elite runner who can make people miss, cut on a dime, and outrun defenders & MAKE AN O-LINE LOOK BETTER THAN WHAT THEY REALLY ARE. Gale Sayers & Barry Sanders were also those same type of runners. Kolby Smith & Larry Johnson don’t have those type of running skills and they both struggled last year.

4. As far as the 15 sacks in the 2nd half of the season go, put down your stat book and go watch the games. It had nothing to do with the O-Line improving. They eliminated 5 step drops & did 3-step drops, play-action & shotgun formations and MOST NOTICEABLY, they were having Cassel get rid of the ball as soon as it was snapped to him and very rarely took shots down the field. Quite naturally the sacks went down, but at what cost? The result was Cassel throwing 3 TD’s and 9 INT’s. If you want to delude yourself into thinking that this constitutes improved O-Line play, then you do that, but don’t expect the next guy to go along with you. I know what I saw & I’ve been reviewing the games — even now — through Game Rewind at NFL.com.

The offense was abysmal during 1st half because they played better competition & JC and Chris Chambers were also not in the starting lineup. They ended up 11th overall in rushing because they allowed an elite runner (JC) to carry the ball on the majority of running plays and also because *they played against a lot of teams that were ranked near the bottom of the league in rushing defense* <—- WHAT PART OF THAT DON’T YOU GET ?

Outside of Asamoah, very little was done to address the O-Line this off-season. As for this statement -“Lets not make perfect the enemy of the good — we don’t need 5 all-pro’s on the offensive line BEFORE we start improving the rest of the team.” - first off, who is “we” — are you pregnant and expecting twins? You aren’t a member of the Chiefs team in any way. Secondly, that statement is not only off-base, it’s not even remotely in the ballpark. Wanting the O-Line to be upgraded and shored up does not constitute wanting " 5 all-pros". Sure, I’d love it if the O-Line did have 5 All-Pro starters, but i never suggested that, in fact, I didn’t even think it. What I was suggesting is that the Chiefs draft a blue-chip LT prospect, because when you have a franchise-caliber LT, it makes it easier to put the rest of the pieces in place along the O-Line.

I’ve been watching the Chiefs for over 4 decades and I can tell you for a fact that as the O-Line goes, so goes the franchise. When the O-Line has been good, the Chiefs have at least been competitive, but when the O-Line hasn’t been good, they’ve struggled. The last 3 years are glittering examples with only 10 wins over that period.

Of course, if you and others wish for the current Chiefs brass to go on not making a real honest effort to shore up the O-Line if they struggle in 2010, then you’ll have to be content with the Chiefs continuing to be cellar-dwellers, because like it or not, that’s exactly what will happen. On the other hand, I’d like to see the Chiefs go back to the Super Bowl and win it and it can’t be done without a first-rate O-Line.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 22, 2010 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Where's Bewsaf when we need him?

That was an even better rebuttal than Texas Chief would have wrote :)

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 22, 2010 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry if it seemed like a book

but he was suggesting things that I did not imply.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 22, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

KC OL got better in 09 and off-season

1. Ryan Lilja > Wade Smith = Upgrade.
The Colts didn’t tender him cause they didn’t want to pay him. They cut him because they wanted to get bigger on the offensive line. Also, he came BACK from injury last season to start 19 games.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/359320-ryan-lilja-cut-by-indianapolicolts-probable-target-for-seattle-seahawks

Ryan Lilja played for the best pass-protecting team in the league. Wade Smith did not.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Besides, the Colts don’t exactly have a lot of extra cap-room to keep OG’s around, regardless of how well they play.

2. If I were the OL coach for Seattle, I would make fun of the OL coach from every other team in the NFL for not getting Okung — he’s great. But that’s about all your link says; its about a text-message. I didn’t say that no one in the organization was high on Okung (of course they were). My point is that the KC OL isn’t so horrible that its worth passing on Eric Berry to get Okung. Eric Berry is going to make a HUGE impact right now and for many years. Okung would have been great for this team but the net improvement is greater with Berry. I think the brass realized that they weren’t working with COMPLETE garbage at OL and made that calculation for Berry. As a fan (not ‘we’ — point taken…I am not employed by the Chiefs organization nor prego), I think it was a good call.

3. You did say that the OL did not get better last season. So I assumed that you meant they got worse? the same? JC ran for over 1000 yards in the last 9 games of the season. And I understand your point is that some of those games were against the bad run-defenses. I also agree that JC is great. I don’t think he’s Barry Sanders-great or Gayle Sayers-great, but he’s great.
I think he succeeded in part because of an OL that was getting their s*** together. I think the OL got better — in part — because they were blocking for JC instead of LJ and were more motivated by a hard worker instead of a locker-room poison. Also, they were getting better at zone-blocking.

4. So I put my “stat book” down and watched the games. I didn’t see Cassel under pressure for 7 out of those 9 picks you keep posting about. Since you’re familiar with NFL.com, I’m sure you’ll be able to find the instant replays on all 9 picks in the game logs.

Vs. Broncos
Pick 1
Tipped at line of scrimmage. Not under pressure.
Pick 2
Cassel threw the ball under pressure from his left into tight coverage. Under pressure.

Vs. Buffalo (the #1 rated PASS-defense at the time, ye who hates stats)
Pick 1
No business throwing the ball – was being hit while he threw, was out of the pocket, should have thrown it away, the guy wasn’t open. Looked like a broken play.
Pick 2
Tipped pass off of the shoulder chambers. Not under pressue.
Pick 3
Tipped by a linebacker into the air and intercepted. Not under pressure.
Pick 4
Hail Mary, last play of the game.

Vs. Cleveland
No Picks

@ Bengals
Pick 1
Threw into triple coverage over the middle. Not under pressure.
Pick 2
Threw down the sideline to Chambers while he was covered with safety help. Not under pressure.

@ Broncos
Pick 1
Ty Law jumped a route before the receiver was looking. Not under pressure.


“They eliminated 5 step drops & did 3-step drops, play-action & shotgun formations and MOST NOTICEABLY, they were having Cassel get rid of the ball as soon as it was snapped to him and very rarely took shots down the field. ",

I understand your point about more 3-step-drops and play-action. I see that too. But I also see good protection. Say what you want to about 3-step drops, the objective is to complete the pass. Cassel made some bad decisions, partially because the offense became increasingly oriented around JC and he wasn’t used to that. Also, play-action doesn’t cause picks, it prevents them by taking pressure off of the QB, especially when he’s faking to a 100+ avg hb. Cassel made mistakes or balls got tipped. Blaming the OL doesn’t make much sense to me.

Cassel was getting used to the zone-blocking scheme and learning his timing on play action. I don’t think the coaching staff was telling him to throw it into triple or double coverage, just as long as he did it quickly. I think he was making some bad decisions in an offense that was constantly in flux last year.

PA and 3-steps aren’t desperation, they’re part of an offensive game-plan that Cassel was getting used to.

The OL gave-up 12 fewer sacks in the second half of the season. They also had a HB run for 1000 yards. Cassel threw some bad passes and some flukes that resulted in picks. But the offensive line as a whole got better. Asamoah and Lilja are also improvements. I think there is every indication of this — statistically or on film. Please don’t take any of my smart-assery’s or sarcasm as dis-respect to a 4-decade fan. And sorry about the novel.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jun 23, 2010 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Excellent reply and rec

All of us learn from a good discussion. Some dander makes for some damn good homework done. I applaud this Hornet :)

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 23, 2010 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice try but

What a bunch of kool-aid. Nothing you said really provides anything substantial that there was marked improvements with the O-Line. Watching a few highlights ( as you said in your own words ) does not equal reviewing the entire game and watching every play closely. You just blew your own argument out of the water. I did review the entire games & I know what I saw.

I hadn’t made mention too much about Okung over Berry or vica-versa, but since you brought it up & stated your viewpoint, I’ll go ahead and state my viewpoint. Also since they did draft Berry, there isn’t a need any more for phony arguments to the effect of “the O-Line was good enough to take Berry over Okung” as I know that isn’t case — it’s total self-delusion to even think that. Berry hasn’t played a single down & to say that “he going to do this or that” is nothing more than hopeful speculation. None of us knows what Berry is going to do. PSSST — Hint : That’s why they play the games!

Also Safeties can help with pass defense, but have very minimal impact when it comes to turning a franchise around. Berry is not the 2nd coming of Joe Montana and can’t impact a team that way. Neither can a LT, but the LT can do more to help turn a franchise around than a Safety can. In fact history has proven over the last 25 years that Safeties drafted in the top 15 aren’t a good pick at all. You can read about it here & better hope and pray history isn’t a precedent with Eric Berry. If it is, I give him about 5 years at the most in a KC uniform.

http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftsafeties.php

By the same token, OT’s have the lowest bust rate of any position selected in the top 15 of the draft since 1991. You can read that here:

http://walterfootball.com/nfldraftoffensivetackles.php

Net improvement with Berry over Okung? LOL! Safeties are a dime a dozen and you can get good Safeties anywhere in the draft. LT’s who can excel at pass-blocking are tough to come by. You can win games with average to better-than-average Safeties. You can’t win with a mediocre LT’s or a mediocre O-Line. A lousy 10 wins over the last 4 years for the Chiefs is all the proof that anyone needs.

Granted, Berry will help the Chiefs pass defense, but I don’t think he’s THAT much better than the other Safeties that were available, to the extent of spending the #5 overall pick & making him the highest paid Safety in the NFL before he ever plays a regular season NFL game — in fact it amounts to fiscal stupidity. In other words, I don’t think Berry was worth the #5 pick. I think Russell Okung was, as selecting him would have given the O-Line a 2-fold upgrade with Branden Albert going to Guard & you can’t beat that by drafting a Safety. I also believe that long-term, as well as right away, Okung will help Seattle more than Berry will help KC. And I know of a guy who saw Eric Berry play live for Tenn. twice and watched him numerous times on TV — and guess what. He also thinks that Okung should have been the Chiefs pick at #5 and that Berry was a reach.

Back to the O-line, you say you “think” that the O-Line got better in 09, but I “know” that improvement was very, very minimal & that drastic improvement is needed this upcoming season & outside of potentially Asamoah, I see no improvement or upgrading in this O-Line.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 24, 2010 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree to disagree

So I guess you agree that Lilja is better than Wade? I don’t know how you could disagree, its just true. = upgrade. = you’re wrong.

OL got better last year. I like how you have gone from saying that they didn’t get better at all to they only got minimally better. On film, they look better — I find it strange that you originally said that the picks Cassel was throwing for the last five games were the product of bad OL play and scheme changes to compensate for that yet when you watch all 9 of those picks, only 1 of them was Cassel under-pressure (and not a lot of it). Now you are telling me that the plays that happened before and after the picks caused the picks? Sounds like bullshit. The play that happened in the previous quarter did not force Cassel to throw into triple coverage. 8 of those 9 picks were on Cassel, not the OL.

The offense started the season without and identity. JC gave them an identity that began with running the ball and Cassel had to get used to that. I think there is ample evidence on film of this. And no I don’t just watch the high-lights — I’m a teacher and am therefore very, very bored over the summer and have re-watched about every game from the last season. The protection got better — including on 9 picks you keep bemoaning as evidence that the sky is falling (who blew who’s own argument out of the water now?…what does that even mean?!?!)

As for the Berry vs. Okung thing: I agree with your point that we neglected the OL for WAY too many years in the draft. I would prefer that we be grooming some 6th and 7th round picks from 2005 right now. But it is what it is and the solution is NOT to declare a state of emergency and spend every high pick we have on OL and give away draft picks in trades until the problem is fixed. I think the solution is to make measured improvements and hi-value draft decisions (like Asamoah — no business being in the 3rd round) to improve the OL with depth and youth. Berry doesn’t JUST help with the pass defense — he helps with blitzing, with run-defense, with manning the slot, etc. — he changes teh defensive playbook for us dramatically which is why is valuable. You’re right that he hasn’t gotten on the field yet, but I’m pretty sure we are both going to be happy when he does.

This post you linked lost credibility for me when it said this:

Why is this? Why do safeties fall on Draft Day? Quite simply: The safety position is not really that important.

Are you kidding me? I guess this is your point when you said that safeties are a ‘dime a dozen’. It seems VERY ironic to me that the guy who keeps telling me a I don’t watch enough film relies on this arbitrary statistical calculation to determine the value of safeties. This is a pass-first league. Watch some film of Troy Polamalu roaming around the field, creeping-up to the line of scrimmage, lining up in man-coverage and tell me that that movement doesn’t change the course of the game (even if he doesn’t get a pick, sack, or a tackle). I don’t care Berry’s value as a draft pick was and fiscal prudence based on these arbitrary numbers games written on some blog — he’s a playmaker, a worker, and a winner. You’re right that he’s untested, but there is every indication that Berry could be that type of player. Besides, Okung is untested too — its the draft, no one is tested yet.

Kool-aid? Hey, I’m a glass is half-full type of guy! Besides, looking at the stats, watching the film, and listening to the opinions of people inside the organization (Pioli’s ‘voice’ in drafting Berry, Waters’ voice in saying the OL got better), I think there is a lot of good evidence of the OL improvement. And its not Kool-aid — I’m not saying they’re phenomenal, I’m saying that got better. That’s it!

Everything you say in non-falsifiable anyway. “I know what I saw and you didn’t see it” is not a persuasive argument or good evidence. According to your line of thought, if ANYTHING is wrong with the offense, it was the OL fault, even if the QB isn’t under any pressure when he threw all those picks. Even if we rush the ball for a 1000 yards in half of a season. Even if veteran leaders on the team express confidence and management does too by not passing on Berry to get Okung. Could it be that the offense was ineffective last year because of coaching voids, a developing identity, a new QB, and a lack of a good slot receiver and TE? Of course not — it was all the OL’s fault. You don’t “know” anything, you can only “think” about it just like me — who’s acting like a member of the organization now?

Answer me this: if the OL allows only 30 sacks over the course of next season and JC runs the ball for 2000 yards, will you still insist that they suck? Cause the offense was on-pace to do exactly that for the last half of the ’09 season and you seem firmly convinced that had NOTHING to do with the OL getting better which to me seems impossible.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jun 26, 2010 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

You do a good job of making up stuff

and putting words in the mouth of others to try to validate your phony arguments — but they are still just that — phony arguments . As far as the O-Line being on pace to allow only 30 sacks , it was because Cassel was like a cat on a hot tin roof throwing the ball as soon as it was snapped to him. That’s why the sacks went down & the picks were thrown in a lot of cases. That does not constitute O-Line improvement — and most of the defenses they played against in the 2nd half of the season were ranked near the bottom of the league in run defense & much of the rushing yardage was due to Charles great running ability & if Charles had gotten hurt & hadn’t carried the ball in the 2nd half of the season, would they have made all those rushing yards? NO WAY !! And yet they still lost most of their games they played. That’s already been explained to you. I will grant you that Cassel made bad decisions, but he was a battered zombie who was lucky to survive. You keep pointing out those INT’s by Cassel, but I notice you didn’t make mention of the intentional grounding call in the game at SD. Was that all Cassel’s fault as well? No, he would have been sacked in the end zone — thanks to one of the biggest whiffs by the left side of this so-called “improved O-Line” that I’ve ever seen by any O-Line. And that wasn’t the only instance. They O-Line simply wasn’t very good — why is that so hard for you to swallow?

I never said that the offensive problems were all the O-Lines fault — you are making this up. I’m saying the O-Line was not very good throughout the course of the season. Why do you insist on pulling things out of your arse and insinuating this or that? Is that the best you can do to try to validate your arguments is to put words in the mouths of others? Pretty lame. I said that I don’t care what you or team management or veteran members say about O-Line improvement over the 2nd half of the season . It almost sounds like you & them are deluding yourselves and wanting to believe your own BS just to make yourselves feel better — I believe the disease is called “self-delusion”. It don’t change the fact that the O-line was nowhere close to being playoff caliber and overall the offensive improvements came when certain players entered the line-up ( Charles & Chambers ) and the O-Line play was virtually the same throughout the season.

And as far as Safeties go Polamalu wasn’t even drafted in the top 15 and since you are using him as an example — there’s the proof right there that a good Safety can be had later on in the draft and it isn’t necessary to spend a top 5 pick on one & at the expense of shoring up a very deficient O-Line. The Steelers had many other playmakers on their defense to support Polumalu when they won their 2 SB’s, BTW, and that certainly helps with them being able to use him in the manner that they do. Doesn’t mean that the Chiefs are going to be able to use Berry in the same way. That’s not to say that Berry isn’t a good prospect, he is, but in my judgement, he doesn’t address the most pressing need of shoring up the O-Line and the #5 pick is too steep a price for a Safety, as they could’ve traded down and picked up a Safety like Earl Thomas, who is faster than Berry & he’s stronger ( at least bench-press wise) and got extra picks or took Russel Okung at #5 & gotten a good safety in the 2nd round. Again, this is not saying that Berry isn’t a good prospect — I’m even buying a Berry jersey — it’s saying that there were better alternatives.

To answer your question, if the O-Line were on a pace to allow only 30 sacks ( it’s already been explained why the sack total went down ) and JC ran for 2000 yards over the course of the season, consider that 1/4 of that 1000 rushing yards ( 259 yards) that Charles gained came against a Denver defense that collapsed against the run down the stretch and in that game they tackled very poorly. That one game is inflating the numbers & you can’t expect what happened in Denver to occur every week, nor does it constitute any excuse for passing on a great LT prospect in Russell Okung — there were a lot of good Safety prospects available later in the draft. If Denver had flat out smothered the Chiefs offense in that last game — then what? Would you and others be crowing about O-Line improvement? I can’t put much stock in that game as it was the exception, not the rule. Your question is quite silly & do you really believe that pace is going to carry over to this season? It would be nice, but don’t hold your breath.

You also may be overlooking the fact that the Chiefs throughout the ’80’s had the best Secondary in football, but they also had a deficient front 7 and as a result they were constantly near the bottom of the league in total defense and points allowed — WHOOPS — THAT SOUNDS JUST LIKE THE CURRENT STATE OF THE CHIEFS DEFENSE and to think that people believe Eric Berry will make the Chiefs defense 10 times better all by himself ( not saying you said that — I’ve seen others post it ), and yet one of the best secondaries ever assembled wasn’t able to in the ’80’s. I agree that Berry is a playmaker, a worker, and has a strong desire to win, but guess what? So are a lot of other Safeties that were drafted. And Russell Okung, while not a playmaker, also is a hard worker & wants to win.

Drafting Russell Okung at #5 does not equate to “declaring a state of emergency and spending every high draft pick & giving away draft picks until the O-Line is fixed”? That’s absolute bullshit and nobody has even remotely suggested such a thing. No clue where you are deriving that from. In fact, it was pointed out that drafting Russell Okung and moving Albert to Guard or RT would give the line a 2-fold upgrade. Doesn’t sound like any panick going on there, it sounds like a great value with just one draft pick. Conversely, one could make the argument that drafting 2 DB’s in the top 50 — both who arguably could be considered reaches — could be just as easily considered “declaring a state of emergency” now couldn’t it? Do you think the 49ers and their fans are considering the drafting of OT Davis at #11 and G Iupati at #17 to be along the lines of pushing panic buttons? No way — they have two O-Lineman that they are just thrilled with & guess what — they got S Taylor Mays in the 2nd round, who just happens to be bigger and faster than Berry & long term may end up being the best Safety in this years draft, if he gets the right coaching. Your logic is flawed.

BTW, your preference of grooming 6th or 7th round picks for the O-Line is exactly what the Chiefs have been trying to do for the past decade & exactly the biggest reason they’ve won just 10 games in the last 3 years — IT DOESN’T WORK !!. But, like I said before, if you and the Chiefs brass want to go on undermining the need to shore up the O-Line and pass on chances to acquire blue chip prospects, you’ll have to be content with being at the bottom & always looking up.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 27, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm making a very modest argument...

…that you seem to agree with despite your seemingly adamant and verbose response. The OL (1) got better over the course of the ‘09 season, (2) that upgrades were made during the off-season and (3) that drafting Eric Berry over Russel Okung was warranted because of these improvements. I am not putting words in your mouth. I am not using my “arse” to generate arguments. My arguments are still intact and in water (as opposed to being ’blown-out’ of said water which I assume is some sort of submarine metaphor?). My evidence is robust, plentiful, and valid. Your arguments are retreating conjecture.

I never said that the offensive problems were all the O-Lines fault — you are making this up. I’m saying the O-Line was not very good throughout the course of the season.

Okay, fair enough. I didn’t say they were ‘very good’ either. I said they got better — last year and this off-season. You started by saying that they got no better and that they were awful from the beginning. Then it became that they had minimal improvement. Now they weren’t very good. Agreed. They still got better.

Besides, you did kinda say that it was the OL’s fault in the sense that every problem that our offense has — which is a lot — can be attributed to OL (Cassel throwing 9 picks in the last five games, for example…even though he wasn’t under pressure). You also seemed to imply (although maybe I just can’t understand what you’re point is) that JC’s performance happened despite a terrible, non-improving OL. Your conjecture tends towards scapegoating the offensive line for a lot of problems that exist at other positions (and in gameplanning/coaching) on offense.

12 fewer sacks and 1000 yards rushing in the second half of the season NECESSITATES improved offensive line play. Your explanation for this continues to be that Cassel HAD to throw picks to compensate yet film that CLEARLY shows that he wasn’t under pressure when he threw those picks — another argument you’ve ignored. This anecdote from the SD game doesn’t prove anything — offensive plays are often cluster-f’d when you have to line the QB up in your own endzone. As for missing a block, that happens to everyone, especially when one has the worst field position possible.

You still haven’t brought you’re point about Lilja again. I wouldn’t stick to the argument that he’s injury prone either after he played 19 games last season. Your silence on that point is wise because you’re losing that argument. Lilja > Wade = “upgrade”.

Thus, the only point that I detect any disagreement about is that Berry was the right choice at #5. I think hmills110 did a good job of pointing out how the 1st-round OT strategy hasn’t paid-off and might not with Okung. Aside from that, I think you’re only point was that the 49er’s had a good draft. Well, its easier to go all-in on OL in the first round with 2 picks and a Patrick Willis on your defense. I don’t know if Berry will end-up being a Polamalu — I’m sure we BOTH hope that he will become one.

I understand and agree with your point that Okung makes us better at multiple positions on the OL. Eric Berry does that with our secondary. I’m looking forward to watching Flowers cover WR’s with Berry’s help over the top. He blitz’s, he man’s, he tackles — he’s a multi-dimensional player who helps every mission of the defense. Okung would’ve made this team better — you are right. I think Berry made the team betterer. :)

And finally, Albert is good. Albert will get much better. He was drafted as a OT because that’s his more natural position. Watch film of him at VA — he pulled almost EVERY play. You saying that he doesn’t count because he was an OG is like saying that McCluster doens’t count as drafting a WR because he was listed as a HB. And maybe I am over-stating the point to say “state of emergency”, but it seems to me that if we spent a 1st-round pick on a OT a few years ago who is developing, we shouldn’t give-up on that investment just yet. I don’t think a functional upgrade at RT is worth passing on one of the best defensive prospects to come through the draft in years. This was one of the strongest drafts in recent memory and Berry was the cream.

And as for JC accumulating 259 of his yards in the last game of the season: I don’t care if the Broncos were the worst rush defense in the league — which they weren’t at the time. JC lit them up for 259 yards when they were fighting to go to the play-offs. This is the NFL — when a team is in a position like Denver was last year, every yard is hard and the OL had to play great that game for that to happen against a division rival on the road. Not to mention that Albert did shut-out Dumervil in that game as well.

I have no idea how you can be dismissive of that performance like we were running-up the score on the Lions in a pre-season game. Everyone put everything into that game and our OL validated my point that they improved over the season. It wasn’t an anomaly — it was proof.

I’m getting a little bored with posting about this topic so if you respond again, I probably won’t. Good debate. Let’s do it again sometime.

by hornetchiefsfan on Jun 28, 2010 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

You haven't convinced me of anything

and I haven’t stated anything that even remotely suggests that I agree with any of this:

The OL (1) got better over the course of the ‘09 season, (2) that upgrades were made during the off-season and (3) that drafting Eric Berry over Russel Okung was warranted because of these improvements.

I don’t agree with any of that. To me it’s bullshit. And whether or not you want to believe it there are plenty of others that feel the same way. Again, you are pulling something out of your arse.

Oh and just to satisfy you: Lilja = replacement for Wade Smith, not upgrade as Lilja hasn’t taken a single snap for the Chiefs yet — and therefore there is no lost argument as you are suggesting.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 29, 2010 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

The great thing is we get to see how all the other Tackle possibilities play out.

Both Denver and San Diego had pretty good LT’s last year. This year maybe not so much.

Rule 49. " Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 22, 2010 5:54 PM CDT reply actions  

Yeah. I was certainly lukewarm about 1st-round on OT, this year.

And something that seems to be forgotten in the long argument, above, is that KC DID do the obvious “Draft a 1st-round OT” thing, and went bust on 2 out of 3. 1st-round OT is a nice general principle, but you have to evaluate each one as he comes along. Many thought that Okung was the best of a not-elite bunch.

by hmills110 on Jun 27, 2010 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

No it hasn't been forgotten,

and the statement that KC went bust on 2 of 3 OT’s drafted in the 1st round is totally false.
Where are you getting your info? John Alt was not a bust & neither was John Tait — both were very good. Victor Riley was not as good as the former two, but he wasn’t a bust & was drafted #27 overall. He got hurt in 2001 in the last year of his contract and after the season NO made him an offer that Carl Peterson didn’t want to match. The only one that qualifies as a bust is Brian Jozwiak and he suffered a career-ending hip injury in his 3rd year in 1988.

Okung the best of a not-elite bunch? Four (4) were taken in the top 23. In the last decade the 2010 OT class was one of the best OT classes with only the 2008 group possibly being better and that’s debatable.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 28, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Victor Riley. Trezelle Jenkins. John Tait. 2 out of 3 sucked. The good one split.

Try this link: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-worstfirstroundpicks042407

It’s hard to take you seriously when you’re so dismissive of alternate views, when your own facts aren’t 100%. My advice is to be a bit more humble, and you’ll have us all eating out of your hand in no time.

Victor Riley was a 1st-round bust. Somebody as slow and top-heavy as Riley can be found farther down in the draft.

You’re saying 1st-round OTs are a very good value, and many teams have benefited by getting 1st-round bookends. But KC missed on 2 out of 3 of THEIRS, and failed to retain the one good one they DID pick. The lesson I learned from this was that it’s not enough to just take the best tackle available to you with the 1st pick. He actually has to be elite, or it’s a very poor value.

by hmills110 on Jun 28, 2010 4:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

I forgot about Jenkins, but be realistic

he was drafted to save money under the cap at the time. They knew he was a major reach & that the chance of him ever developing were slim & none. He doesn’t count, as far as I’m concerned.

I can’t consider Victor Riley a bust. He wasn’t elite, but I watched all the games he played and he had many more good games than he did bad ones. He wasn’t a bust. I highly question just how much you really saw of him — if at all.

Tait left because he got a 6-year 34-million dollar from Chicago to be their left OT & Carl Peterson didn’t want to match it. Peterson had rubbed him the wrong way right from the get-go.

You also forgot John Alt who played 13 years.

It’s hard for me to take you seriously when your so-called “facts” seem to be REPEATEDLY not 100% and why shouldn’t I dismiss an alternate view when I know it’s BS. I’m not looking to have any one eat out of the palm — I call like I see it and I tell like it is:

Tait and Alt were excellent choices. Riley was OK, not elite but not a total disaster.
Jenkins is the only one that I could consider a bust, but everybody knew he was a reach when he was drafted — nothing was expected from him.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 29, 2010 2:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

John Alt was drafted in '84. That's before Peterson.

Your facts are at least as spotty as mine. We could spiral TOWARDS the truth, if you were a bit more civilized, or spiral out of control into a shouting match, if you continue with this tone.

I’m done taking YOU seriously. :o)

Taking you on point-by-point would be fun if you weren’t so rude, obstinate and intransigent.

by hmills110 on Jun 29, 2010 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Branden Albert was moved inside to guard because he happened to be on the same team as another elite LT.

That’s not exactly an endorsement, but if you watch him, he DOES have good feet, and even with your nit-picking on the job he did on Dumervil, the fact is that Dumervil was silenced in that last game.

by hmills110 on Jun 28, 2010 4:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

All you are telling me it that he got beat out at VA for the LT position

whether it was Ferguson or Munroe. And I have watched Albert, enough to convince me that Okung should have been the pick at #5. And regarding Dumervil, it not nitpicking when I say that Albert did not shut out Dumervil — it’s the gospel truth. Dumervil didn’t line up across from Albert for more than 10 snaps in the 2 games combined. Like I told the other guy, I’m not going to put any stock into that last game against Denver. It’s great that the Chiefs beat them, but Denver’s defense had totally collapsed and they tackled very poorly. You cannot expect that to happen every week.

by brdempsey69 on Jun 29, 2010 2:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Monroe was someone I campaigned for last year.

Didn’t get my way. Didn’t cry about it, though.

Here. Let me get you a tissue…

OK. Now, BLOW.

by hmills110 on Jun 29, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

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