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The Fall of the KC Defense: A Retrospective

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From the FanPosts - Woodman

For anyone who has been a Chiefs fan for more then a decade there is a sense of pride when thinking about the defense our team had back in the 90's when DT was racking up sacks and Marty ball did not just define a coaching style, but an attitude.  People feared the Chiefs and it all started with the defense.  Well the last decade has been a little different.  The last time we had an elite defense was 1997 (13 seasons ago).  If you're like me that makes you feel old.  Can it really have been that long?  Sadly, yes.  Here is a look at where our team finished each season in the rankings for Yards Per Game and Points Per Game:

  • 1997:  11th YPG  1st PPG
  • 1998:  9th YPG  22nd PPG
  • 1999:  14th YPG  13th PPG
  • 2000:  18th YPG  19th PPG
  • 2001:  23rd YPG  23rd PPG
  • 2002:  32nd YPG  28th PPG
  • 2003:  29th YPG  19th PPG
  • 2004:  31st YPG  29th PPG
  • 2005:  25th YPG  16th PPG
  • 2006:  16th YPG  11th PPG
  • 2007:  13th YPG  14th PPG
  • 2008:  31st YPG  29th PPG
  • 2009:  30th YPG  29th PPG

So what happened?  How did we go from one of the great defensive teams in the NFL to a whipping boy.  I mean from 2001 (when Vermeil came in) to present we have an average year end ranking of 25.5 in YPG and 22 in PPG.  Well if the old sayings "championship teams are built through the draft" and "defense wins championships" are both true then it stands to reason that it is vital that a team draft quality defensive players.  Let's take a look at how that's gone and who's to blame.

Star-divide

As I mentioned, 1997 was the last time we had an elite defense.  It also happens to be the last time we went an entire draft without picking a defensive player.  So we didn't take a single defensive player in the draft and then were #1 in the league in PPG that season.  Why?  Because we had a roster full of developed defensive talent.  Now I took the time to look at every defensive draft pick we've made since that year.  Let's take a look.

1997:  No defensive picks

1998: 

  • 4th round - LB Greg Favors
  • 5th round - DB Robert Williams
  • 6th round - DT Derrick Ransom
  • 7th round - DB Eric Warfield

Summary:  Warfield became a solid starter and was great value for a 7th rounder.  The rest were role players at best.

 

START OF THE GUNTHER YEARS

1999: 

  • 3rd round - LB Gary Stills
  • 3rd round - DB Larry Atkins

Summary:  Stills was a special teams stud, but neither pick was a factor on defense.

 

2000: 

Summary:  Bartee never developed.  Wesley was a solid starting player for several years.  Dennis didn't pan out.

 

START OF THE VERMEIL YEARS

2001: 

Summary:  Downing was a bust, Beisel and Harts were role players for us for a little while, and Sands was a solid player for a couple years (too bad we let him go and those years were in a Raiders' uniform).

 

POINT OF NOTE:  From 1997 to 2001 we only used one second round pick on defense (Bartee) and no first rounders.  That's 5 straight years of not going after big time defensive talent in the draft.

2002: 

Summary:  Okay, so at least they tried to bring in some talent on defense via the draft.  Too bad both Sims and Freeman flopped.  The salt in the wound is that had we taken Haynesworth or Henderson instead things might have been different.  Another point of note, the best defensive pick in this draft by far was Fujita.  However, we let him get away and he has been a solid starter for other teams while we have struggled to put NFL caliber players on the field at LB.  Sadly, this will not be the last time I say that.

2003: 

Summary:  Mitchell was a solid starter for a couple of years and then like Fujita we let him go and then struggled to fill our LB core with solid players.  Battle was a bust (would it make you sick to know that the Bills Terrance McGee was still on the board when we took Battle) and Wilkerson was good value for a 6th rounder but has put up more of his numbers after he left the Chiefs too.

2004: 

Summary:  This draft pisses me off the most.  Players we passed on to draft Siavii and Fox:  Darnell Dockett and Shaun Phillips.  To Fox's credit, he was a starter this last year, but for the Steelers not the Chiefs.  Then there's Allen, the one home run defensive draft pick that we made in 8 years (1997-2004) and he is not on our team anymore.  We don't need to reopen the JA trade and what the value we got was.  Let's just say that on a team that had been FAILING to draft defensive talent the fact that we had to get rid of the one star we had hurt, and hurt bad.

2005: 

Summary:  Johnson has great talent and is at least still on the team but has yet to really live up to his draft position.  The other three are long gone.

 

HUGE POINT OF NOTE:  From 1997-2005 (9 drafts) we drafted 26 defensive players.  Of those, Derrick Johnson is the only one currently on the Chiefs roster.  Think about that, 9 drafts, 26 players and we have one LB who may or may not even start for us this year.  That is what makes letting players like Fujita, Mitchell, and Allen (as well as Donnie Edwards who was drafted before 97) go so painful.  No wonder our defense has crumbled over the last decade.

START OF THE HERM YEARS

2006: 

Summary:  Hali was a good pick and is one of our better defensive players.  I'm just going to leave the Pollard debate alone, we've said enough.  Maxey didn't pan out but when you add getting a starting caliber safety in the 7th round to our best pass rusher this is the best defensive draft we've had up to this point.

2007: 

Summary:  Both are still in the NFL, but not with the Chiefs.  Could they have worked out if the new administration hadn't changed the scheme?  Hard to say.

2008: 

Summary:  Both starting CBs and probably our best player in the defensive front seven?  It doesn't even matter if Morgan pans out, this is the best defensive draft of the decade.

 

START OF THE PIOLI / HALEY ERA

2009: 

Summary:  Too early to call it either way.  Jackson and Magee could be long time players in our front seven or not.  Washington looked bad last year, but we knew he was raw and needed work coming in.

 

POINTS OF NOTE:  In the past 5 drafts we have used a total of 7 first or second round picks on defense (compared to 1 from 97-01).  From 2006-2009 we used 14 picks on defense.  9 of those 14 are still on the roster (compared to the 1 from 97-05).

IN CLOSING:

I don't care what you think about Carl Peterson.  You may think he is the devil and ruined our team or you may think he was a great GM who helped build the Marty teams we all miss so much.  The fact of the matter is that from the time Marty left up to when Herm was hired Carl clearly SUCKED at drafting defensive players.  He also did a piss poor job of resigning the few good players we did draft.  So stick that in your "But there’s nothing I can do about it. It’s no longer my watch" pipe and smoke it Carl.

If you know me at all you know I have to leave things on a positive note.  The good news is that over the last few years we seem to be righting the ship.  We now have a core group of young talented players to build around (Dorsey, Flowers, Hali, Jackson, Carr, and possibly DJ, Magee, and Page).  As these players all develop and come into their prime our defense WILL get better.  However, I don't think we're there yet.  I think everyone knows who I would like the Chiefs to draft, but even if they don't go that way I still firmly believe that adding more talent to the defensive side of the ball should be a priority, especially when you factor in the FAs we've already signed on the offensive side of the ball.  Hopefully Pioli is thinking the same thing.

 

PORKCHOP OUT

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

Comment 83 comments  |  11 recs  | 

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yeah i get where you are coming from

its make me not even want to draft a defensive player till the later rounds because that seems to be where the talent is

by anewstart on Mar 27, 2010 2:03 AM CDT reply actions  

correction: that's the only place Carl could find defensive talent.

Other GMs manage to find franchise defensive players in the first few rounds.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

The messed up part is those drafts arent that bad. Just the decision to jettison or trade proven talent is what makes you scratch your head

IMO

by Foilhat on Mar 27, 2010 2:18 AM CDT reply actions  

so, the talent that Carl let get out of town:

Donnie Edwards
Kawika Mitchell
Scott Fujita
Jared Allen

ouch

by bansky on Mar 27, 2010 2:23 AM CDT reply actions  

you can add Rich Gannon to that list

I know he was drafted by the Pats and is a QB, but when you talk about pissing on the talent spectrum…yeah, that was an awesome move too. Great write up!

Thomas Jones and the Lombardi, DO IT!

by shotty on Mar 27, 2010 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good write up man.

Very informative and without a lot of fluff, that’s what I like in my fan posts! I think our recent defensive picks are going to do fine, at least our high ones. Dorsey and “The Predator” will hold down our DE spots for years, Hali is good and solid, Flowers and Carr are both solid and I think Page will come back and be good for us. I’m optimistic Jarrad Page can come back as well. That leaves us with glaring holes at NT and ILB to fill. We have most of the pieces, we just need finishing touches and we will be solid again.

Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!

by nateforchiefs on Mar 27, 2010 2:29 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

So...

Carl traded Jared Allen and left..
Its like getting raped in prison and than being left in the showers to cry about it like in American History X. Thanks Carl, Next time please spit on it first…

Greatest quote on AP in a LONG while! Porchchor your my new hero!

So stick that in your “But there’s nothing I can do about it. It’s no longer my watch” pipe and smoke it Carl.

by GanjaChief on Mar 27, 2010 2:32 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

That quote from Carl really rubbed me the wrong way.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why were our drafts so bad? I'll give you three reasons....

1. Lynn Stiles
2. Chuck Cook
3. Bill Kuharich

Thats why! Carl’s fault was that he didn’t replace them.

Opinions are like A--holes, everyones got one.

by aPacificChief on Mar 27, 2010 2:36 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I think it has more to do with the head coach.

When Carl had Marty and Herm (both of which had a good eye for defensive talent) he did fine.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Anyone still around?

Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD

by TheAngelsColts on Mar 27, 2010 2:48 AM CDT reply actions  

uh...yeah

just got done reading the stash post.. now thats funny shit!

by GanjaChief on Mar 27, 2010 2:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

oh I haven't read it I guess ill have to.

Ok I was thinking about making a spreadsheet for the live mock going on here. Just make it easy to see in one place who has already been taken. Makes it easier on all the people visiting on the site and I was wondering is someone wanted to help me make it here quickly?

Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD

by TheAngelsColts on Mar 27, 2010 2:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

My only access is with my blackberry right now or I would.

The computer nerds at work block me from signing into AP.

Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!

by nateforchiefs on Mar 27, 2010 3:26 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

My only access is with my blackberry right now or I would.

The computer nerds block me from signing into this website.

Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!

by nateforchiefs on Mar 27, 2010 3:36 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

haha this is a unique double post fail

Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD

by TheAngelsColts on Mar 27, 2010 3:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

lol yes it is.

I work in a security command center for a major regional bank in omaha. I watch the cameras and monitor all the system alarms basically. Right now I have the overnight shift but soon will move to 3p-11p.

Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!

by nateforchiefs on Mar 27, 2010 3:42 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

oh that would be better id think

Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD

by TheAngelsColts on Mar 27, 2010 3:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I can read the stuff with my work PC

But all my commenting has to be with the blackberry.

Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!

by nateforchiefs on Mar 27, 2010 3:47 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

really?

surprised the site isn’t banned completely. normally they jobs ban the site not just you logging in.

Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD

by TheAngelsColts on Mar 27, 2010 3:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Its third party cookies that are blocked.

And they’re blocked from the browser which is windows 6. I just don’t want to risk getting in trouble by changing the browser settings. Just a inconvenience

Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!

by nateforchiefs on Mar 27, 2010 4:02 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

yea no reason to take any risk.

I am half way done with the spreadsheet then tomorrow will probably make the post introducing it. making it available. Actually probably will do a FanShot instead

Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD

by TheAngelsColts on Mar 27, 2010 4:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

My 'enter' button had a momentary stutter.

Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!

by nateforchiefs on Mar 27, 2010 3:43 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I understand it happens to me also

Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD

by TheAngelsColts on Mar 27, 2010 3:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

well just finished half of it.

I better hit the hay though as I got to get up in a few hours to start running a Mock Draft.

Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD

by TheAngelsColts on Mar 27, 2010 4:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good luck with the mock, hope all goes well.

Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!

by nateforchiefs on Mar 27, 2010 4:51 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

WOW!

Really appreciate the write up! Great research, great read!

by Lokrath on Mar 27, 2010 4:00 AM CDT reply actions  

So, if we go all out defense in the draft

then our offense will have a similar collapse? Not that it’s great right now, I guess. Not saying we should draft offense first, just sayin’…..nothing I guess. Too much beer.

The path to Victory is made of losers.

by Brsrkr on Mar 27, 2010 5:21 AM CDT reply actions  

The difference with the offense is that Carl did draft two pro bowl first rounders in TG and 2.7

I realise that they aren’t on our team anymore either, but I think you can argue that we got maximum value out of them. There aren’t any first or second round defensive players up until Herm was hired that you can say that about.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Carl was the the king allright.

King of cronyism. His top scouts were pathetic. He must have sat on his throne eating cheese and olives, slurping red wine like a Roman caesar, while Arrowhead burned.

Kansas City Chiefs - 2020 Team of the Decade

by skunk420 on Mar 27, 2010 7:23 AM CDT reply actions  

Thank you Porkchop

You do a great job on all of your research , I think if Pioli sticks to his way we will have to get a N T with our first or 2a and then we need a pass rusher next . fix the defense first and use the 5th round picks for the Offense .

CHIEFS fan 4 life

by Charles # 1 chiefs fan on Mar 27, 2010 8:29 AM CDT reply actions  

Porkchop:

it’s drafting AND development of players. Carl deserves his share of the blame, but the coaching staffs do as well.

Merlinnj

by merlinnj on Mar 27, 2010 9:24 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree 100% our defensive coaching struggled just as much during this period.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dez Bryant with the #5 and then defense with the two 2nds (NT,S), Center in the 3rd, LB in the 4th and BPA with the 5ths.

Founding member of the Dez Bryant in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club.
Draft him for the children people!

Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

by BigRedChief on Mar 27, 2010 9:41 AM CDT reply actions  

yanno, Steve ... between you (Dez) and Porkchop (Berry) I'm thinking we approach the draft from a new angle ...

we trade both our 2nds and our 3rd to Detroit for their 1st round so we can assure ourselves of getting the finest talent available … Berry and Bryant … nothing but the best, spare no expense, no excuses, top-notch all the way

that’s all we’d need to do … we don’t need no stinkin’ NT or LB or anyone else … just run Berry and Bryant out there, those guys are so tough they can play both Offense and Defense … all we need, those two guys and lookout, Super Bowl here we come

{{have you seen my nurse, lately? she’s not been around with my medications … they say I’m delusional, but what do THEY know, damned 2-headed aliens, think they know EVERYTHING}}

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 27, 2010 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

BWAHAHAHAH ... I meant that to be to you, BRC ... had Steve in my head (must be subliminal thinking ... how scary is THAT)

but yeah … the Berry and Bryant thing … {{angelic smile}}

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 27, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

My real name is Steve!...... okay no it isn't.

To me the best players in the draft go as followed:

1. SUH
2. and 3. Berry or Bryant
4. Okung
I think all others a decent players but not game changers.

SUH will clearly not be there at #5 and I don’t think Berry will be there either (Tampa Bay). Trade downs are difficult and expensive for other teams so I think that is becoming less of a possibility. That leaves us in the horrible postion of either reaching for a player (McClain or Williams) or taking best player available, which to me is without question Dez Bryant.

{{They say I"m crazy but I’ll show them…. I’LL SHOW THEM ALL! AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!}}

Btw Ups, did you get my invatation to join my fan club?

Founding member of the Dez Bryant in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club.
Draft him for the children people!

Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

by BigRedChief on Mar 27, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

you ... fan club? anything like the Mickey Mouse Club? should I be scared???

… knowing you … probably

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 27, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

omg! that's it, I want a divorce!

the Dez Bryant in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club??? bwahahahahaaaaa … {{oh, sorry about that … must have been a spur of the moment muscle spasm}} … Dez Bryant? BPA???

{{waiter, I’d like some of whatever he’s having … why yes, I do need a long vacation … thank you, that will be all for now}}

BRC, I’ll hop off Spoon and Join Steve’s “Mount Cody for NT with the #5 Pick” club before I’d go with Dez “Can’t make It To Team Meetings On Time” Bryant … besides, the club fees are excessive: while Bryant might be a good WR, that’s the least of our issues tight now in terms of Positional Need … I know, it can be a fine line to walk, BPA vs NEED, but in my deviant mind, unless said BPA is clear-cut 10x better than anything out there with absolutely NO question marks (character issues, anyone?) I think you pretty much HAVE to fill the NEEDS of the team, which at this point are weighted on the Defensive side of the line (and no, I wouldn’t draft Berry at #5 either, there are indeed other guys who could play Secondary that we can get in 2nd Round)

but BRC … you DO look good in those Mickey Mouse ears {{angelic smile}}

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 27, 2010 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

No way on Bryant

Berry or McClain, I’d rather reach on a NT then take him.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you

for proving my point about the draft. It is a crapshoot at best and you never know who will stud or who will bust.

by dethrat on Mar 27, 2010 10:07 AM CDT reply actions  

Totally disagree, its only a crapshoot when your GM doesn't know what he's doing.

Look at the Ravens over some of these same years:
1996 – Ray Lewis
1997 – Peter Boulware and Jamie Sharper
1998 – Duane Starks
1999 – Chris McAlister
2000 – Adalius Thomas
2001 – Gary Baxter and Edgerton Hartwell
2002 – Ed Reed and Anthony Weaver
2003 – Terrell Suggs, Jarret Johnson, and Aubrayo Franklin
2004 – Dwan Edwards
2006 – Haloti Ngata and Dawan Landry

That’s not a crap shoot my friend, that’s having an ability to find the guys that will make it at the next level.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice :)

If a team has some stability in the front office and an owner that is willing to pay the talent as it developes, results in drafting should come naturally. Changing Head Coaches every three years and new schemes and playbooks will make for a ton of misteps in player evaluation. The Chiefs threw a lot of talent on the street cause of the constant churn in the Management :(

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 27, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think this is an excellent point.

I always get frustrated when people want to change management after every bad year. Consistency is a key to prolonged success for any organization. I have the same issue when people want to continuously change offensive and defensive schemes. Continuity and calm provide a stabilizing force to any organization, and they allow the players to focus on the job on the field.

by etp_stl on Mar 27, 2010 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

ouch

ozzie was a great player but he’s an absolute amazing GM. that’s incredible.

wow, that’s just a scary list to look at if you’re not a Ravens fan.

by bansky on Mar 27, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

The shame of it is ....

that he has had trouble complementing that with the same kind of talent on the offensive side of the ball. If he was as good of an evaluator of college offensive talent, the Ravens would have been the team to beat every year for nearly two decades.

by etp_stl on Mar 27, 2010 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

You and I may not know, but ....

I believe good talent evaluators have a fairly good idea. While not every selection is going to be right, the good ones hit significantly more often than they miss. I think that is more than just being luckier than the others.

by etp_stl on Mar 27, 2010 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Porkchop ... rec'd for the hard work ... I wish all posts showed this kind of dedication to research, facts and figures, etc

about all I’ll say is a “response” to your closing about Carl and who we have now (Dorsey, Flowers, Carr ,etc) … I’ve said it many times before and I’ll say it again now: for that strong “base” of our defense we should all thank Herm Edwards …

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 27, 2010 10:17 AM CDT reply actions  

Herm as a coach = trainwreck / Herm as a defensive talent scout = pretty darn good (IMO)

Not to mention he seems to care about the quality of the individual rather that just the quality of his play…. which is always refreshing.

Founding member of the Dez Bryant in a Chiefs Uniform Fan Club.
Draft him for the children people!

Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

by BigRedChief on Mar 27, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

no arguments my friend

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 27, 2010 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I figured that I owed AP some good research after the whole Berry fanclub hype machine.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

{{huge grin}} consider it Paid In Full, my friend!

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 27, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also, I've never been one of the Herm haters

I liked the guy and thought he had a great eye for talent. I’d hire him as a defensive assistant or as a scout in a heartbeat. He just happens to be horrible at in game management and motivating players to stay in shape.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Porkchop, I really kinda wish Pioli had allowed Herm to stay ... BUT ...

1) with a sideline “assistant” to help on game management, and …
2) more strength and conditiong coaches, etc

that said, Herm did care about having a team with not just good players, but good people, as BRC noted above … and he DID have an eye for talent, especially on the Defense side

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 27, 2010 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't really think ....

it was necessary to keep Herm around once Pioli got here. I think having a sideline “assistant” for game management would be incredibly undermining for a HC, IMO. I don’t think Herm would have been willing to be put into the scouting department, and I still think he’s best suited as a DB coach if he wants to coach.

It is hard to argue with the caliber of talent that he was able to help bring in to the organization, but that’s really supposed to be the job of the GM and scouting department. Unfortunately, Carl had ceased to be a very good GM, and I give Herm credit for being able to push Carl into the decisions that he felt was right.

I don’t believe Herm would have been able to get the most out of the players he helped to bring to the team. I think it was necessary to get a different coach, but I still give him credit for making the extremely hard decision to scrap the direction the team had been going and start over.

by etp_stl on Mar 27, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Herm did not make the picks directly.

I do think he was able to express to the scouts and Carl excatly what was needed.
Then he had some say on the Choices on the picks taken.
I don’t see how as Head Coach he scouted the players directly. Maybe I’m Wrong.
But Peterson provided the players to Marty too if he had a clear idea of the desires of the head coach. Vermeil probably did pick the talent directly thus the dearth of defense. All my opinion based on the AP collective thought

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 27, 2010 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with your take on ....

Herm’s influence over the players taken. That was pretty much what I meant, not that he was out making scouting runs during the season; but that he was a good evaluator of the talent he had, what needed to be upgraded, and then selecting the guys he felt could fill those holes.

I’m not sure why you would say that Vermeil killed the defense, given his NFL history and some of his complaints about their drafts while he was here. Contrary to popular belief, Vermeil has always believed that a stout defense is required for good teams. His SB team in St. Louis had that unbelievable offense, but their defense in ‘99 was 6th in total defense. He complained heavily in KC about Carl’s selection of Larry Johnson because we already had Holmes and the defense was in shambles. The questionable draft day decisions in St. Louis came after Martz took over and forced himself into the position of draft day chief.

That’s the reason I give Herm credit for being able to influence Carl in the choices made, as well as the direction of the franchise. Clearly, Vermeil’s past relationship with Peterson did nothing to allow him to get what he wanted to build the organization. I’d question the defensive player scouting and coaching during that time, and that lays on the heads of both Vermeil and Peterson.

by etp_stl on Mar 28, 2010 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with your take on ....

Herm’s influence over the players taken. That was pretty much what I meant, not that he was out making scouting runs during the season; but that he was a good evaluator of the talent he had, what needed to be upgraded, and then selecting the guys he felt could fill those holes.

I’m not sure why you would say that Vermeil killed the defense, given his NFL history and some of his complaints about their drafts while he was here. Contrary to popular belief, Vermeil has always believed that a stout defense is required for good teams. His SB team in St. Louis had that unbelievable offense, but their defense in ‘99 was 6th in total defense. He complained heavily in KC about Carl’s selection of Larry Johnson because we already had Holmes and the defense was in shambles. The questionable draft day decisions in St. Louis came after Martz took over and forced himself into the position of draft day chief.

That’s the reason I give Herm credit for being able to influence Carl in the choices made, as well as the direction of the franchise. Clearly, Vermeil’s past relationship with Peterson did nothing to allow him to get what he wanted to build the organization. I’d question the defensive player scouting and coaching during that time, and that lays on the heads of both Vermeil and Peterson.

by etp_stl on Mar 28, 2010 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

post fail

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Mar 29, 2010 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pretty depressing to say the least...

I do like that the last few Drafts have started to fill the needs of high quality picks for the Defensive side of the balls. We are actually starting to build a core. Sadly we probably need not only this Draft, but next years as well to really build a solid big time Defense.

Sad to think only DJ is the only top of the line pick we still have from any sort of extended time period. Just think if we still had Jared Allen? :(

F**K YOU CARL!!!!!!!

by ChiefMojo on Mar 27, 2010 10:18 AM CDT reply actions  

What a train wreck!

This really puts it all in perspective. I can appreciate the fact there are no guarantees with any draft pick, but in 10 years, through simple laws of average, one would think we could hit on a few good picks. And the most painful part is, the ones who were productive were summarily dismissed. Thanks for a sad but informative post.

by mikedkc on Mar 27, 2010 10:19 AM CDT reply actions  

Herm does get some props...

In my book Herm does deserve credit for pulling Carl’s head slowly out of his a$$. With that said, he not only pulled it out far enough to see he blunders on the Defensive side of the ball, but to see his fall from grace (his a$$ being shown the door)!

by ChiefMojo on Mar 27, 2010 10:21 AM CDT reply actions  

And isn't it pathetic...

As die-hard Chiefs fans, Carl’s dismissal is pretty much all we’ve had to cheer about in 10 freaking years?

by mikedkc on Mar 27, 2010 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

yes, its pathetic but

this we’ve stated for awhile…no starters, no depth…..

and we did have some years to cheer…thanks to dick vermeil and al saunders….if sims had been a good player we may beat the colts in 03

I am on TEAM O'CALLAGHAN-RT
KC Will Trade Derrick Johnson

by SDChief on Mar 27, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well I guess we did have the Offense...

We did have the Offense during the Grandpa years, but that is when we really saw the fall of the Defense. Think of Gunther as you may, but he always had decent Defenses until his last.

It was like like Carl was so caught up in developing a Super Bowl Offense, he forgot the other side of the ball until it was to late. He brought in Herm and brought back Gunther, but as Porkchop shows, we didn’t have the Defensive Draft picks to show for outside of DJ and JA! At least we did start to have quality Defensive players to show once Herm had a say in matters.

Luckily we have high quality Offensive and Defensive Coordinators now… hope it helps come Draft time.

by ChiefMojo on Mar 27, 2010 10:49 AM CDT reply actions  

If KC would have just retained the drafted players

They would be alright

Kwicka
Fujita
Allen
Pollard
Wilkerson
Tank
Turk

Not all all-pros, but solid players

He’s always open. He catches a lot of balls. He’s un-guardable, no matter how old he is

by WarWolf on Mar 27, 2010 11:08 AM CDT reply actions  

yeah...not certain that tank or turk are solid...the rest I totally agree

and I was one that felt turk had a future….meh….

I am on TEAM O'CALLAGHAN-RT
KC Will Trade Derrick Johnson

by SDChief on Mar 27, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

many people blame Carl, Vermeil, and Herm for not drafting well on D

But I think the players I listed were average to very good

KC would not have been ranked in the low 20’s on Defense if they had kept those guys imo

He’s always open. He catches a lot of balls. He’s un-guardable, no matter how old he is

by WarWolf on Mar 27, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Let's see here....

Over the course of the last 15 years the most piss poor excuse for NFL play on the defense has been at the LB spot, especially in the middle (4-3 mainly, now 3-4).

We’ve spent a lot of picks on mid to late round LB’s to try and develop talent. They have either been garbage, or have been traded to some other team. LB remains the most piss poor position group on the defense today.

Out of all the LB’s that we have drafted the only ones that remain on the team and at least somewhat productive on the field are DJ and Tamba Hali. Both DJ and Tamba were first round picks (not mid to late rounders).

So, for the Chiefs, LB’s have only been successful if they were taken in at the top of the draft.
We’ve gotten safeties all over the board that have started for us and been somewhat successful.

Tell me that story again of how we should never pick a LB with a first round pick. I like to laugh.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynicism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Mar 27, 2010 11:19 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Last really good safety we had was Jerome Woods and he was a first round draft pick.

For the record, after Berry, McClain would be my next pick.

Official Member of the "Draft Eric Berry" Fanclub
and the "Team O'Callaghan at RT" club

by KCporkchop on Mar 27, 2010 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Notice

When Jaren allen left in 07 our defense dipped dramaticly!

by Alaskan Chief on Mar 27, 2010 12:21 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Rec Porkchop

great read and many thoughts to ponder.
I guess the main idea I have is, It is all History now.

Pioli I hope has the plan to fix it for years to come :)

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 27, 2010 1:04 PM CDT reply actions  

I think we will Draft OLB very early...

I don’t see us taking McClain with our 1st round pick for the ILB spot, but I do see us taking someone like Hughes from TCU with out 2A pick. Kindle is a possibility, but he is likely already gone in the late 1st.

McClain is falling on Draft boards right now and the only way I see us taking him is if we traded back into the 1st round. Even then I see us more than likely taking someone like Dan Williams at NT over McClain. If we stay at #5 it will either be Berry or Baluga imho.

So yes, we are likely to take a LB early in the Draft.

by ChiefMojo on Mar 27, 2010 1:21 PM CDT reply actions  

Nice Porkchop.

I totally agree on all accounts. Rec’d man. Keep on putting up quality posts my brother.

2/3 of the Earth is covered by water. The rest is covered by Eric Berry.

by Red N Gold Beast on Mar 27, 2010 3:07 PM CDT reply actions  

Very good write up, Porkchop.

I’m not sure if it’s that much fun to open those old wounds up, but it’s clear that we devalued selecting defensive talent during the Vermeil years. I don’t know if we should blame Vermeil for that, given that was his displeasure over drafting LJ.

I think it’s even more depressing when you point out the players that Peterson chose to let walk. I’d say a GM has two major jobs in providing talent; and those are to draft players with talent and potential and identify which players to keep and let go when contracts expire. It sure looks like Carl did poorly on both of these important responsibilities.

The question is whether or not you lay the blame solely at Peterson’s feet, or was it more a failure of Mr. Hunt for allowing him to run this team into the ground.

by etp_stl on Mar 27, 2010 9:42 PM CDT reply actions  

Clark was learning the ropes

He learned how to tie a Noose

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 27, 2010 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was talking about Mr. Lamar Hunt, though.

I guess Clark was probably starting to take over before he officially took over, but I’m guessing there was a similar situation to what was going on in St. Louis as the owner got sick and passed away. In St. Louis, the Rosenbloom kids didn’t want to dishonor their mother by replacing the guys she had in place while she was still alive, and even a little after. I’m guessing Clark wasn’t going to remove Carl while Lamar was still alive out of respect. He quickly resolved that after he took over.

by etp_stl on Mar 28, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

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