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Critics Say You Don't Move Offensive Lineman In The NFL

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As the NFL Draft draws closer there will be more and more heated debates about the player best suited for the Chiefs at the #5 slot. 

One of the debates currently taking place is the relevance or practicality of the Chiefs selecting an offensive left tackle in the first round.  Many think the moves that Pioli has made in regards to the offensive line are sufficient and now the team needs to move to other positions.

Not wanting Pioli to select a left tackle in the first round is reasonable.  There are many positions of need on the Chiefs team.  However, some of the arguments on why Pioli should not take a left tackle are simply not sound.

One of those arguments is the assertion that offensive lineman in the NFL don't just move around from position to position.  These people try to say things like "this is not Madden" or "you can't just move lineman around."

This post will attempt to shed light on the fact that NFL teams move offensive lineman all the time.

It is simply not true that it is not done in the NFL.

Star-divide

One of the most talked about issues regarding the offensive line this off-season is moving Brandon Albert from left tackle to...well...you insert the position. 

Moving from one position on the line to another position takes a little work.  But that doesn't mean it can't be done or is not ever done.  A good start to debunking this assertion might be by looking at Wade Smith.  In one season Wade Smith played left tackle, left guard, center, and right guard.

Wait a minute...you can't do that.  Can you?

Wade do a decent job filling in for all those positions.  Some positions he did a little better (like C,RG, LG) and in others he was just trying to hang on (like LT).  But the point is that he did it.  And it was only his talent that held him back.

You need not look any further than our own Kansas City Chiefs to find some clues as to how often offensive lineman are moved around in the NFL.  Our own Brian Waters started as a center and then was moved to left guard.  Albert played guard in college and has played two years of left tackle in the NFL.  Niswangers was a guard and moved to center (and might be moved back to guard), Ndukwe was a guard that moved to right tackle, Brandon Damion McIntosh was a left tackle that moved to right tackle...the list can go on and on.

It's just not true that the NFL does not move it's lineman around.

A couple of months ago I watched the movie Blind Side, great movie.  Micheal Oher was selected in the first round of the NFL draft and started for the Ravens at right tackle.  In the middle of the season Oher was moved to left tackle.

Wait a second, NFL teams don't just move offensive lineman like that.  Or do they?

After thinking about our own Ikechuku Ndukwe I thought I might just look at the Miami Dolphins history at moving lineman around.

 

                                                                  2005 Miami Starters

Left Tackle
Left Guard
Center Right Guard
Right Tackle
Damion McIntosh Jono James Seth McKinney Rex Hadnot Vernon Carey

 

                                                                  2006 Miami Starters

Left Tackle
Left Guard
Center Right Guard
Right Tackle
D. McIntosh
Jono James Rex Hadnot
L.J. Shelton
Vernon Carey

 

In 2006, Rex Hadnot moved from right guard to center.  But people have been posting that you can't do that.

                                                                 2007 Miami Starters

Left Tackle
Left Guard
Center Right Guard
Right Tackle
Vernon Carey
C. Liwienski
Samson Satele
Rex Hadnot L.J. Shelton

 

In 2007, L.J. Shelton moved from right guard to right tackle.  Shelton even played a little left tackle that year.  In the same year Rex Hanot moved from center back to right guard.

Looks like we have guards moving to center, guards moving to tackle, and tackles moving to guards. 

But fans are posting that you can't do that.

                                                                2008 Miami Starters

Left Tackle
Left Guard
Center Right Guard
Right Tackle
Jake Long
Justin Smiley
Samson Satele I. Ndukwe
Vernon Carey

 

In 2008, Jake Long was drafted and the Dolphins moved Vernon Carey from left tackle to right tackle.  Ndukwe started at guard and then was moved to right tackle the next year before being traded to the Chiefs.

As you can see, offensive lineman get moved.  Sometimes it is because of injury, sometimes it is because someone else is brought in, and sometimes it is in an attempt to upgrade.  Whatever the reason...they get moved.

The debate on whether the Chiefs are done with the offensive line will rage on until draft day.  But one thing is for certain.  Offensive lineman in the NFL are moved all the time.  So using that as evidence for the arguement to not take a left tackle in the first round is simply erroneous.

 

 

 

 

 

Past Bewsaf posts:

Research Articles Satire Humor/Other Player Evaluation

*We Have Met the Enemy and He is Us

*Historical Draft Reactions of Three Floundering Teams - A Chiefs Perspective

*Should Floundering Teams Shoot the Moon for a Franchise QB?

*Is Taking a QB in Rounds 2-4 the Answer?

*KC Fans Split on Selection of Team's Nerd (satire)

*Doctor Diagnoses Casey Fanz with Bipolar Disorder (satire)

*More Reports Saying Brown to Raiders Deal is Done

*A Chiefs Fan Obituary

*A Chiefs Dear John  (rated R)

*The Kansas City Chiefs are Taking Applications

*A Fans Letter to Clark Hunt (venting humor)

*Once Upon A Time - A Turn Around

*My Multiple Personalitys and Their Letter to Arrowhead Pride (A Shamless Attempt at the Rec.)

*What You Look For in an NFL Offensive Lineman - The Basics

*If You Can't Beat Them...Zone Them

*Breaking Down the O-Line - Season Review

*Breaking Down the Chiefs and Broncos Tape - O-Line

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This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

Comment 123 comments  |  8 recs  | 

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brandon mcintosh?

you mean richardson?

Are we the team to beat in 2010? I sure think so! Go Chiefs.

by jrcnc on Mar 23, 2010 1:05 PM CDT reply actions  

very nice breakdown as usual Bewsaf

and your right there is going to be some heated debates. Regardless im excited to see who we pick because whomever it is at #5 is going to upgrade this squad. Once again nice job.

Are we the team to beat in 2010? I sure think so! Go Chiefs.

by jrcnc on Mar 23, 2010 1:09 PM CDT reply actions  

well written

to me, the question isn’t “do linemen change positions”… the question is SHOULD KC’s lineman change positions???

just because other teams have done it, doesn’t mean that the Chiefs SHOULD or NEED TO shuffle their OL this season.

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* KC will NOT draft a LT in the first round, and the draft WILL be heavy on defense

by stagdsp on Mar 23, 2010 1:19 PM CDT reply actions  

That should be the question

1) Would it make our team better.
2) Are we better served someplace else.

Those are legitimate questions.

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Mar 23, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

so... what's the answer?

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* KC will NOT draft a LT in the first round, and the draft WILL be heavy on defense

by stagdsp on Mar 23, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Read the article yourself. I get the feeling if I summarize the article you wont appreciate what I have to say.

by Foilhat on Mar 23, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I read it, just wondering what YOU interepreted to be the "answer"

I don’t not appreciate what you have to say :)

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* KC will NOT draft a LT in the first round, and the draft WILL be heavy on defense

by stagdsp on Mar 23, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well the article pretty much breaks down positional value. Personally I am a huge proponent of position value and consider only LOT, QB, CB, and pass rusher then only true elite positions.
If you look at the average salaries this take makes sense because its supported by economics and draft data.

When considering the #5 overall selection I think position value, upside vs risk, and impact vs dollar are the three most important factors.
Now some people include team needs into that equation, but if you’re picking in the top five; I think we would all agree you probably have more needs you wish to admit.
If you can agree with the three factors I mentioned above then its hard to argue against a OT (or OLB) at #5 overall. The only argument (now that it seems settled that OL position switch isnt rocket science) I hear against a OT is just the ‘we dont need one argument’; and that doesnt hold water IMO.

by Foilhat on Mar 23, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Foilhat, I'm ashamed of you ... you forgot the biggest factor of all ... the one single thing that overrides all other considerations ...

Gut Feeling

… don’t overlook it

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe you’re right. Gut feeling might drive more of these decisions then I care to admit. The only experience Ive ever had similar to a GM on draft day. Is arriving in Vegas with money that I borrowed from my girlfriend.
The factors that should have place me at a certain game in a certain casino went right out the window when I got that gut feeling.

by Foilhat on Mar 23, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

my opinion
The only argument (now that it seems settled that OL position switch isnt rocket science) I hear against a OT is just the ‘we dont need one argument’; and that doesnt hold water IMO.

KC’s current "Need" for OT, I believe, is for a backup "swing tackle" OR a CLEAR upgrade at RT (or even LT, IF IT WAS A BIG UPGRADE)

That’s a need that is worthy of consideration in the 2nd round and later… but NOT the best use of the #5 pick overall. You need to hit a homerun with that pick, ideally… and a marginal potential upgrade over a pretty good player is NOT what I’d hope for out of the #5 pick.

Positional value does mean something… but it’s NOT everything. I think Pioli has shown he’ll STRONGLY consider need when making his picks, and address those needs regardless of "reach"

That’s why I personally believe that Pioli will NOT take a LT in the first round, but will choose to use that pick on a bigger need… on the DEFENSE. Whether that’s Berry or McClain or Haden or a NT

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* KC will NOT draft a LT in the first round, and the draft WILL be heavy on defense

by stagdsp on Mar 23, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Completely agree

I believe Pioli will take either Berry, Haden, or reach for a NT if he truly believes the player is worth it. IMO I would be estatic if we drafted either Berry or Haden at #5.

Chiefs draft wishlist:
Berry, then a combo of BPA and NEED
Time to take back the AFC West
Go Chiefs

by King of the Cassel on Mar 23, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

right ... my personal thought is that Okung is about the only OLineman worthy of a #5 pick

if he were available and Suh was gone (and McCoy) I would have little problem with taking a talent like that … you don’t pass on a concensus top LT like Okung (hell, take him and trade him later, but you do not pass on that kind of talent)

that said, I think he’s the ONLY OLineman who is THAT good for THAT high a pick THIS year, and I think we need to go heavy on Defense in this draft … which of course means NT (unless Suh or McCoy is available at #5)

again, my opinions may differ from yours, or stag’s or reality … well done post as always, Bews! and rec’d

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

BINGO. No one disputes that OL move around.

by dablueguy on Mar 23, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh, I've seen a lot of people dispute that on AP

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I had several people arguing with me about this the other day

I was told ‘to ask someone who’s played the game’ and this isn’t Madden.’

When I dropped on them most of the references from this post (and a few others), I got very little response.

Particularly the switch from RT to LT or vice versa ia very common. Everyone should remember John Tait if nothing else.

by kcsno56 on Mar 23, 2010 4:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Very nice Bewsaf.

I’ve always believed that if you can play one OL position (and excel at it) you can likely play most, if not all of them.

2/3 of the Earth is covered by water. The rest is covered by Eric Berry.

by Red N Gold Beast on Mar 23, 2010 1:21 PM CDT reply actions  

Are you Emmitt Smith?
Wade do a decent job filling in for all those positions.

Lol, just kidding

by I_Bleed_Red. on Mar 23, 2010 1:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Holly cow batman

I can’t spell laughs

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Mar 23, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Can't Spell Holy Either...

ROR…

Things to get the Chiefs back on the winning side of football:

1. Haley resign as offensive coordinator or do the following;
a. Feed JC more
b. Take the cuffs off of Cassel and let him air it out
2. Fire Clancy "Calls" Playslikeass

by kcchiefsfan72 on Mar 23, 2010 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please point to any LT that was drafted in the 1st round, and has performed reasonably well at that position early in his career, that was moved away from LT early in his career?

by dablueguy on Mar 23, 2010 1:25 PM CDT reply actions  

Let's not forget to mention...

…another perfect example that happened right here in front of us with the Chiefs.

In 1999, the Chiefs used a mid-1st round pick to select John Tait. Tait started at left tackle for the Chiefs from 1999 through 2001. Tait was solid, if unspectacular, at left tackle (Branden Albert, anyone?)

In 2002, the Chiefs traded for Willie Roaf. When Roaf arrived, the Chiefs moved Tait to right tackle. The new, upgraded offensive line—following Tait’s move to right tackle—was the most dominant offensive line in the NFL until Tait moved on to Chicago. Tait then proceded to play both tackle spots at different times for the Bears. It happens. Rather frequently.

by TimInKC on Mar 23, 2010 1:28 PM CDT reply actions  

Brandon Albert at the end of last year was playing LT far better than Tait ever did. Haley said the Sky’s the limit with Brandon. That kind of statement didn’t apply to, nor was made about Tait at LT.

by dablueguy on Mar 23, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

“Brandon Albert at the end of last year was playing LT far better than Tait ever did.”

Purely your own opinion.

by TimInKC on Mar 23, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

{{grinning from ear to ear}} ... well said, skunk!

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ha! Nice skunk.

Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

by BigRedChief on Mar 23, 2010 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hilarious.

It’s stating opinions as unchallengable facts that make people look foolish.

by TimInKC on Mar 23, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

no, you're merely overstating the obvious ...

… namely that it was indeed an opinion, which we all knew to begin with

and after all, that’s what AP really is all about … fans getting together and inundating each other with their own opinions

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

So do me a favor and hop down off my butt and let me express mine.

by TimInKC on Mar 23, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

but it's such an awesome view from here!

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

rec

Touche :)

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 23, 2010 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

(Sarcasm)

No offense intended. :)

by TimInKC on Mar 23, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice article Bewsaf.

I have been working on a post myself along the same line. I am not going to argue that it ISNT done, but rather, why is it difficult to do and opine on whether or not KC SHOULD do it. You have forced my hand and I will have to finish it earlier than I had planned.

To make a bad day worse, spend it wishing for the impossible.

by chiefsandcigars on Mar 23, 2010 1:31 PM CDT reply actions  

tx

That article would be a nice piece. And…glad to get you motivated. :)

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Mar 23, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tait was not playing all that well at LT, and Willie Roaf was the PLAYER OF THE DECADE AT LT. Neither are the case here.

by dablueguy on Mar 23, 2010 1:32 PM CDT reply actions  

Yes, Tait was playing well at LT. At least at the same level Branden Albert is playing now.

Was Tait playing at a Willie Roaf level? No, that’s why the Chiefs jumped at the chance to acquire Willie Roaf.

Your constant stubbornness to acknowledge the fact that position changes happen frequently along the offensive line in the NFL is silly. The Chiefs may have an opportunity to upgrade their offensive line. This may include moving Branden Albert from LT. To continually claim that this “can’t be done” or is somehow radical and unusual just isn’t true.

by TimInKC on Mar 23, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

That’s strictly your opinion.
We aren’t moving Albert for Willie Roaf. We’d be moving him for a questionable rookie. Surely you see the difference.
Who said position changes don’t happen frequently? I said young LT’s who were drafted to be a Franchise LT, don’t move off the position when they are succeeding at the position.

by dablueguy on Mar 23, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

They do if the current coaching staff (which didn’t draft the current player) determine that they need to upgrade the position.

Look, I’m not in favor of, or against the move. As opposed to a lot of people on these fan sites, I’m of the opinion that Scott Pioli, Todd Haley and the rest of the Chiefs’ personnel department and coaching staff know more about football than I do.

If the Chiefs determine they are going to draft an offensive tackle and move Branden Albert, I’ll defer to their judgement. If they determine Albert is just fine at LT, and they decide to go elsewhere with the #5 pick, then I’m fine with that too.

by TimInKC on Mar 23, 2010 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

and to that, Time, I agree

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good Job Bewsaf, Rec'd

Your documentation is well conceived. The theory that bothers me is this. We all know a LT is the QB’s best friend from a blind side point of view. (unless of course if the QB is left handed.) In any case a LT is worth more money than a RT. If we draft a LT @ #5 how are we gonna justify paying 10 Mill. a year for two LT’s.
I think Pioli will go for a D player at #5.

Scott Pioli's star will shine in 2010.
Win or lose, the Chiefs scare the bejesus of all opponents in 2010

by ChiefsChance on Mar 23, 2010 1:33 PM CDT reply actions  

Glad you liked it

You’re right, paying two high priced left tackles would be tough. Although Albert wasn’t really taken that high in the draft. Well, lets say he was not taken in the top 5. He was #15 I think.

Also, the Jets had 4 #1s on their line. That that I am saying go get 4 #1s.

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Mar 23, 2010 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

that would be

Not that I am saying go get 4 #1s.

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Mar 23, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ahhah

The Chiefs are going to draft a left-handed QB and need a dominate RT.

*Brilliant*

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 23, 2010 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

haha..That desreves a DaGum!

Opinions are like A--holes, everyones got one.

by aPacificChief on Mar 24, 2010 3:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

good stuff AP

I am on TEAM O'CALLAGHAN-RT
KC Will Trade Derrick Johnson

by SDChief on Mar 23, 2010 1:33 PM CDT reply actions  

I dont have the time to look into this myself

But I wonder if these results aren’t cherry-picked. Obviously, the best examples are going to be brought forth to support this idea since it is your argument, it just seems all the examples are one-sided.

I don’t mean this in a mean way, I simply wonder if there aren’t plenty of examples of times when a position switch doesn’t work.

by Boots 58 on Mar 23, 2010 1:42 PM CDT reply actions  

Also, I'm not sure that people's general feeling isn't that it CAN'T work

They just aren’t sure it will help the line nearly as much as a top MLB/S/NT/etc could help our team as a whole.

by Boots 58 on Mar 23, 2010 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think that would be a reasonable argument

that they don’t think it would help as much as the other upgrades you suggested.

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Mar 23, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

to me it's not that it can't "work" but that it makes berry little sense.

1. $
2. OL is more about chemistry than it is about who can play what position well

Official Member: Eric Berry Fan Club
Tweet me @GiftNate
N. Gift

by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 23, 2010 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course linemen change position all the time in the NFL.

But, they rarely succeed when they cross the center unless they have had previous experience on the other side. The real question here, is should KC rearrange their 0-line. My response would be that KC’s problems with the line stemmed least from LT. In other words, why move a player that is trending upwards? Kansas City had been addressing the interior of the line with Wieg and Lilja and have a number of young players on board to add to the mix. Dream on if you want, but (and I know this is the point of your post) KC will not take your favorite LT in the first and move Albert. Ain’t happenin’, no how, no way!

by whoadog on Mar 23, 2010 1:45 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

+1

"It doesn't matter what you do in Life only that you do it the best you can. "

by sgthall on Mar 23, 2010 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

+2 Albert is staying at LT

Pioli’s hand is forced to go with defensive player @ 5. We have shored up our o-line for now. Besides we still have Colin Brown to fit in the mix.

Scott Pioli's star will shine in 2010.
Win or lose, the Chiefs scare the bejesus of all opponents in 2010

by ChiefsChance on Mar 23, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

right, Albert stays at LT

unless Okung falls to #5 in which case all bets are off

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just for the saking of saying this outloud (Umm... or Typing this out loud)

If we were to get Okung, then we could either put Albert @ RT (which is scary) or it could cause a total domino affect. Okung would man the LT spot, pushing Albert to LG, Waters to C, and then keeping Lilja at RG, and O’Call at RT.

I know that you're afraid... you're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin.

by R2J_24 on Mar 23, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

right ... either could happen if Okung was the choice

so it COULD be

Okung-Lilja-Waters/Weigmann-O’Call-Albert
Albert-O’Call-Waters-Lilja-Okung
The-Possibilites-Are-Almost-Endless

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

But, they rarely succeed when they cross the center…

Micheal Oher moved from right tackle to left tackle last year. John Tait was moved from left tackle to right tackle. Those are two that crossed the center and were successful.

Wade Smith played LG and RG equally well.

I don’t think the “crossing the center” holds much water. Not that there has not been some failures.

Dream on if you want, but (and I know this is the point of your post) KC will not take your favorite LT in the first and move Albert. Ain’t happenin’, no how, no way!

Rats…:)

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Mar 23, 2010 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Michael Oher played LT in college. John Tait played RT in college.

Wade Smith played multiple positions only adequately or he would still be a Chief. Once again, crossing the center doesn’t usually work well for linemen. Yes, there are exceptions, but it is always a risk.

by whoadog on Mar 23, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Michael Oher played LT in college

That’s true. And probably played RT well in the NFL.

John Tait played RT in college.

That is true also. Not sure what you think of him playing LT with the Bears.

Wade Smith played multiple positions only adequately

That is true also, but I think it is more of his talent level than crossing the center. Like you suggested, he was not great at one and bad at another. He was adequate at both (level of play stayed the same).

Don’t get me wrong, some players don’t have the talent to switch with ease (Damion McIntosh said he had trouble). We agree on that. But talented players can get it done, like Oher. And others, like Wade, can do it with little fall off in the same year.

Like you said, there are exception to every example. But the point is, if you evaluate that a player can do it, and you think it will upgrade the team if they move, then it is possible to move them. It is not like it is not done.

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Mar 23, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great read!

There have been many, many arguments about moving Albert from LT to LG. I’m not too big on him moving to RT but that could happen too. I’m for drafting Okung and moving our line around accordingly. My reasoning is that I believe Waters will be gone next yr and then we would have Okung at LT and Albert at LG. That excited me!
I’m a big Berry fan too but not sure about paying top 5 money for a position that could be filled in 2nd round (safety from S. Florida for example) and a position of violence. Safeties do get injured and miss more games than say a LT. A recent post explained that and I found it to be an insight to what could happen in draft. I just want Cassel to be protected because if he is protected only then can we determine if he is the qb for the Chiefs the next 5-6 yrs.

Mr J
KC Chiefs Fan

by Mr J on Mar 23, 2010 1:58 PM CDT reply actions  

I think consistency in the O-line actually made them better last year.

I’m not disputing that you can’t move players around on the O-line, but our line actually played quite well, the last 4 or 5 games, and, I think a key to that was finally some consistency, where we weren’t shuffling players in and out, and changing positions. I think Haley has alot of faith in Albert, at LT, and remember, 2 years, 2 different systems, and playing at a lighter weight, where he had to learn more technique. I don’t think we can fairly judge him until this season, and I don’t see us drafting an O-lineman with the first pick, with so many holes on defense, and the moves to fix the O-line in FA.

There once was a man from Nantucket......Nevermind.

by Racyman on Mar 23, 2010 2:00 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I agree about...

us having so many needs on def side of ball. Crap, we need NT, safety, ilb(s). Scary how bad we need those 3 positions. I think they have to draft nose tackle. That’s a must. Teams this off-season have shown the value of 3-4 NT’s by not letting ANY of them hit the market so dont expect any to be available in the summer when teams start cutting vets. But a vet ilb and/or a safety can be found after cuts begin.
But, I think the last 4-5 games our o-line playing well could be a mirage? We played Denver twice, cincy, buff and cleveland and went 1-4. Bottom line. I know J Charles did well. Not sure our pass protection was so great as Cassel played terrible! Just terrible! b4 yards and 2 ints vs Den, 4 ints vs Buff, 0 tds and 1 int vs Cincy and 1 td and 2 int vs Denver. 3 td’s and 9 ints last 5 games. That scares me JUST as much as the 31st ranked def. stats.

Mr J
KC Chiefs Fan

by Mr J on Mar 23, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well that was a downer :(

But an excellent thought Rec to both

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 23, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who exactly is making the argument...

…that the Chiefs shouldn’t draft a tackle simply because “you don’t move linemen”?

I mean, of all the reasons not to draft a tackle, that one doesn’t even crack the top 10.

by SlipperyPete on Mar 23, 2010 2:09 PM CDT reply actions  

Pete ... that argument has been made numerous times on AP ... I agree it's not really legit

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
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5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the basic idea is that it CAN work, not that it will or won't

For every “good” move there is a “bad” move. I remember McIntosh was a “fair” LT and was moved to RT and became Sackintosh. I for one think Albert is athletic enough to make the move succesfully so I have no issue drafting a LT. I honestly think we will be in great shape whomever we draft at #5 unless Pioli takes a chance on a “reach” . . .

by Dallas Chief on Mar 23, 2010 2:09 PM CDT reply actions  

agreed, Dallas ... well stated

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

agreed

but a reach scares me! Dan Williams at #5? Cody? McClain? Those 3 reaches scare me.

Mr J
KC Chiefs Fan

by Mr J on Mar 23, 2010 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then just take Dez Bryant and everything will be awesome.

Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

by BigRedChief on Mar 23, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

excuse me, don't you have work to do?

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good point. ( =

Fact. Bears eat beets. Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

by BigRedChief on Mar 23, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

An OLB fits

Brian Graham, Hi motor, a year of internship under Vrabel.
Just my Man-Crush of the moment. I might move on again :)

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 23, 2010 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

some players can be moved around .. some cant

if anyone can do it .. its probably albert… but i didnt think mcintosh was that bad of a LT but when he moved to RT.. he was horrible!

"WIth the 5th pick in the 2010 NFL draft the Kansas City Chiefs select... Eric Berry Safety Tennesee... "

by BEEf_CHIEF on Mar 23, 2010 2:42 PM CDT reply actions  

and Haley was just quoted by Joel in a post a bit ago about how versatile Albert is

not that I’d read too much into it … they do like to keep options open

Pioli: yeah, we love Clausen as a player and person and we’re watching him
Gailey: we’d love to trade up to get Clausen
Holmgren: we have no interest in Clausen whatsoever
Belichick:

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 23, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yes, What is Bellichick going to do?

When does a QB turn south? Again, Will Bellichick hold on to Brady tooo long?
Never thought of the NE connection on the QB question :) Rec Mountain Man

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 23, 2010 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

ask the coach that released Favre...lol

Official Member: Eric Berry Fan Club
Tweet me @GiftNate
N. Gift

by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 23, 2010 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

One point that surprisingly no one has made

Brandon Albert was a stud LG in college. Him movng back to that position would be an easy adjustment. He played both LT & LG in college, he is used to making that adjustment.

Waters to C is an upgrade and a position he has experience in. A former probowler at C to groom the next one we will surely be drafting in round 2 or 3 would be huge.

Lilja to RG and O Cal holding down the RT. Behind them we have Niswanger, Brown and Indukwe who can come in immediately and fill in if anyone goes down. We now have a very flexible and deep line.

Of course all of this means nothing if Okung doesn’t miraculously fall into our laps with the #5 pick. I agree with previous commentors that he is the ONLY one worth taking with the #5 pick as far as LT are conscerned that could replace AND be an upgrade over Albert.

by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Mar 23, 2010 3:16 PM CDT reply actions  

My preference however

Concentrate on the D with the 1st pick and 2a, then get a C with pick 2b then BPA with all the rest. BPA including (in no specific order) WR, LG, RG, LB, SS, CB, TE.

by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Mar 23, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Waters barely played C in the NFL, and that was over a decade ago. I really think moving him to C is off the table with the signing of Casey, if it was even ever on the table.

by dablueguy on Mar 23, 2010 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok...so someone tell me where the weakness is on the OL....

LT – Albert
LG – Waters
C – Weigmann
RG – Lilja
RT – O’Cal

Reserves: Brown, Ndukwe, Niswanger, Porter, Richardson
1-3 of those reserves will not be making the final cut this fall.

Official Member: Eric Berry Fan Club
Tweet me @GiftNate
N. Gift

by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 23, 2010 3:39 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't...

think we have a leak, but that doesn’t mean some positions could not be upgraded. I don’t think we will go offensive line. I do not think we will go with Berry. The pick is either going to be Suh or McCoy.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Mar 23, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was agreeing with you right up to "suh or mccoy"

change that to “McClain, Williams, Haden or even Cody”

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* KC will NOT draft a LT in the first round, and the draft WILL be heavy on defense

by stagdsp on Mar 23, 2010 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Suh or mcCoy

Will be top 3. Right it down. Ink.

by kcsno56 on Mar 23, 2010 4:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I agree that this looks like a good lineup on paper...

but we need to get adequate competition at almost every position. Not reserves or grooming projects, but real competition.

by NW on Mar 23, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

But where and who?

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 23, 2010 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

reply to giftedchiefsfan

I would say the O-line roster is a helluva improvement from the one we started with at the start of the season, and I think it is actually pretty good, with the additions we made. I’m not saying ignore it in the draft, but I just don’t see spending a number one pick on a different LT, that likely wouldn’t be an upgrade over Albert. Remember, we were the leading rushing team in the AFC, the last 6 games, and finished 11th overall. Cassel was sacked one time, the last 4 games, so his struggles weren’t all due to the O-line. He needs some weapons, that can hang onto the ball and move the chains. I think Weis will also work with him, and he will display alot of improvement next season, especially with his work ethic. I don’t like drafting a WR early in the draft, as I have stated, they generally take more time to develop than other positions, and there are more bust QB’s and WR’s than any other position in the draft. They are becomming a dime a dozen, just like RB’s, and alot of gems are found later in the draft. I really think Cottam is going to be a good tight end, He displayed promise, in some limited playing time. I hope Urban is productive, but I still wouldn’t mind nabbing another , younger, veteran WR, maybe when some other players are released by some team that needs to free up some money before the draft, with a trade, or maybe a RFA, that doesn’t have a real high tender.(Lance Moore/Saints?). I was disappointed with Lance Long. I hope he can contribute this season. We not only have limited weapons as starters, but little depth. Why the hell I started talking about receivers, I have no idea! Sorry bud!

There once was a man from Nantucket......Nevermind.

by Racyman on Mar 23, 2010 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rec

Train of thought is an awesome thing on good thought.
It will come to a complete thought for you or someone else on the Train :)

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 23, 2010 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

yep I agree Racyman

I think our O gelled nicely the last few games…Everyone was playing better. Eliminate a few drops and bump our run after the catch stats and wow…the ’10 season will be an exciting one.

It was the D that was still suspect horrendous overall last year. But improvements at maybe 3 positions and adding better depth will make a huge difference.

Special teams were fantastic most of the year with the exception of our return game (need replacement for JC).

But in all areas we need to push the starters to keep improving their game. As we continue to do this, our wins will increase to the top of the NFL.

Official Member: Eric Berry Fan Club
Tweet me @GiftNate
N. Gift

by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 23, 2010 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Case In Point

Harris Barton for the 49ers. He played every position on the offensive line and had an outstanding career on championship teams. It’s a myth that you can’t move offensive linemen.

Also, Larry Allen, Dan Dierdorf, and Jackie Slater got moved around. Two of them are in the Hall of Fame and one’s on his way.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Mar 23, 2010 6:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Most of us are not saying that moving linemen is completely taboo...

but only that it is risky business. The risk/benefit of that kind of gamble does not seem warranted given KC’s current situation. Regardless, what we say here has absolutely no bearing on what will happen on draft day. I just I hope I can look back three years from now and really like what KC did with 2010’s #5.

by whoadog on Mar 23, 2010 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

There was a post or fanshot earlier on not Busts so much as players that failed to live up to 1st round picks.

Who do you say that is a prime candidate for not living up to the expectations? AP?
Not directed at you Bewsaf.
I would say either Dez Bryant, Claussen, or Dan Williams.
WR’s and QB’s bust, Someone expecting that Williams will be a decent 3-4 NT are projecting to much. He might be a good 4-3 DT.
Now on the same thought Who is going to live up to 1st round expectations?
Suh, McCoy the DT, Berry cause he will be picked in the 10-20 range, Haden will be a very good corner, Spoon cause he will be picked by a high-caliber team, Iupati and Pouncey for the same reasons. Solid teams can turn solid players into solid contributors.
Any thoughts?

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 23, 2010 9:12 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Berry won't make it to #10

If we don’t take him, he’ll probably go Seattle.

I agree with you on the Coaching aspect though Steve. It’s why some players don’t add up to much, but get traded or picked up in FA and within a year or two begin to shine. We can’t underestimate the influence of opportunity for some players to improve because they are put into a starting role before they are ready…and more attention is given to them by the coaches and they improve because of that…(that last part is just a guess on my part though)

Official Member: Eric Berry Fan Club
Tweet me @GiftNate
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by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 23, 2010 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

well said and agreed, Steve ... and rec's back atcha

I can definitely see Bryant as a bust … a few others too, depending on where they land

excellent point on some of the successes being with the better teams and being surrounded by better players and/or having better coaches

two-shay

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 24, 2010 2:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

you know i have been against moving albert all offseason but if okung is there we take him and say thank you.

Look at the stats for Offensive Tackles: Rankings

Albert and Ocally are both towards the bottom and i think a change would greatly help. I do understand that Matt Cassel held the ball way too long and did surrender a lot of unnecessary sacks but i also believe that a starting offensive line of:
Okung
Waters
Wiegmann
Lilja
Albert

Would be a very good offensive line especially if we got a young center whether its walton or tennant to learn behind Weigman.

The first 3 picks of the draft will be defense. Pioli loves him some defense.

by ChiefsfanJon on Mar 24, 2010 2:25 AM CDT reply actions  

Ocally gave up 24 pressures in only starting 12 games

That is too many Second most is Albert with 16 QB pressures.

The first 3 picks of the draft will be defense. Pioli loves him some defense.

by ChiefsfanJon on Mar 24, 2010 2:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are we actually saying that O-Linmen cannot switch positions, and still be effective at a new position along the O-Line?

OR are we debating that the only position in the O-Line that you would consider taking at 5 is a LT?

Because the debate for me is not whether or not O-Linemen can be moved along the line (provided they have the feet to play the required position), but rather IF we have the GUY (BA) who can play the LT position, why would you take another guy to play that same position? To me that is the greater debate.

Opinions are like A--holes, everyones got one.

by aPacificChief on Mar 24, 2010 3:59 AM CDT reply actions  

Honestly, whether you agree with Bewsaf or not, I don't understand how you can't rec his work.

Seriously, the amount of effort and the graphs and such that Bew puts into every single one of his posts is deserving. I imagine at times we take it for granted because we’re used to it. Who else gives us crosswords and backwards posts? NO ONE!! Great job as always Bew!

by krayfish on Mar 24, 2010 7:33 AM CDT reply actions  

He sets the bar too high...

What, am I supposed to rec him everytime? I’ll admit, I don’t always get through all the “facts” ( short lunch ), but I trust his opinion anyway. The debate is simple… if they are an athlete it doesn’t matter what side they are on, and if not, they don’t belong in the NFL.

by 12t on Mar 24, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes, as a matter of fact you ARE supposed to rec him every time

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whitlock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Mar 24, 2010 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree brew,

They could move Alberts if they wanted. He’s still really young and light on his feet, he could move over to the right side. I’ll spare you the #5 pick talk, and say this: there are some impressive offensive lineman that may fall to our 2A pick, they could get a real masher for the right side at the right pick. I don’t really care though, were going to get a hadn’t full of good players, though. Just can’t wait to see the end of who the Chiefs should draft at #5 stuff.

by tenacious rdc on Mar 25, 2010 1:12 PM CDT reply actions  

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