Saturday Night Open Thread
by Chris Thorman on Mar 20, 2010 5:36 PM CDT
in 2010 Kansas City Chiefs Season
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PrintJoel and I are both in and tonight (I'm off to Ruth Chris actually) so here's a thread to chat Chiefs.
Hope everyone is doing well. What's everyone up to tonight?
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Some say a strong secondary gives the defense time to get to QB, and some say that a defense that gets to the QB allows the secondary to get more interception.
Which do you think is more important for us? If the secondary is more important should we get Berry at pick 5? If defense is more important than should we take Suh (in the slim chance that he is still there?)
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pass rush
is more important if we can hit the qb or hurry throws then those lead to int’s we could cover all day and it doesnt mean that were gonna get to the qb
The better DB is so you can single-up. Singling-up allows you to attack the QB/RB with an extra hats.
The key is to get the extra hat to the QB before the single-cover guy(s) is(are) beaten. The more guys you have who can single-up, the more guys there are free to finish the play on the ball at its point of origin. Most defenses don’t have corners they can trust to single-up. And I would argue that there are more than a couple corners in the league, such as Brandon Carr, who could be real beasts, if they could play every down like it would be decided in 3 seconds.
Any secondary is going to break down, eventually, so the idea is to expose them for as little time as possible. Adding extra hats coverage doesn’t do you much good, if the remaining hats can’t finish the deal on the other end (at the QB).
Berry’s only important enough at #5 if he can play man-to-man press at the next level. If he’s DOMINANT in doing that one thing, you have the makings of a championship D. If he can’t, then even I think he’s a reach at #5. If he’s just a good ball-hawking safety, you might do yourself about as much good quite a bit later in the draft, and not be afraid to throw the rookie DB into the special teams fray.
A ball-hawking safety can buy a second or two
if he makes the QB hesitate. Can also screw up pre-snaps if the QB has to find him plus the mike.
I just think safeties and zone corners are going to be more and more important as the NFL continues to jack up the scoring and make QBs and WRs more untouchable. Defense is becoming more tactical and less physical, at least outside the trenches.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
It's becoming more and more zone-oriented (except for a handful of GOOD defenses)
as the athletic gap between corners and receivers continues to widen and people try to counter with extra bodies and quicker LBs.
I think it's more because of new rules than an athletic gap.
And when I say new, I mean going back a few years to the 5-yard press zone, and then the legalized intentional grounding, etc. It takes several years for the league to really adapt to new rules.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
The 5-yard chuck rule's been in place for a long time, now.
But what’s really noticeable to me is the long-term trend of bigger and faster WRs, without much happening on the defensive side, to match. And the more they can’t match up and the more zone that is run, the more the quick little zone-type corners are wanted, and the more you NEED to run zone, ad infinitum. But in spots around the league, you see a Charles Woodson or a Champ Bailey, who are as big, strong, and fast as their offensive counterparts make a HUGE difference for their teams.
Zone defense was more or less invented as a solution to the problem of not having DBs who could match up, PERIOD, around about the time it was discovered that track star WRs could score touchdowns at will against the corners of the day (in the ‘70s) and that’s the heart of the matter, with or without a 5-yard chuck rule.
Yeah, the 5-yard rule's been around for awhile. Shows my age that I think of it as one of the newer rules.
I think that there would be more big, athletic corners if they could be as successful as the smaller quicker ones. But the league now mandates that corners basically dance around WRs without touching them, ergo smaller quicker CBs. There’s only a very few elite corners who can succeed in today’s no-touch passing game without being MUCH quicker than the WRs.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
I think it's as much cultural as it is anything else.
I think the bigger kid who can win the 1-on-1 and make the catch in Pop Warner wants and gets more glory as a WR, and none of these guys wants to play CB, and the smaller, scrappy kid, who just wants to PLAY gets tabbed as a DB. I don’t think that dominant DBs are as valued by GMs or the fans as they should be.
I’m dubious about your theory, there, although it’s a more conventional theory than my crackpot BS.
DBs are WRs who Drop Balls :)
So yeah, there’s some playground culture there. Though kids usually play both ways on the playground… GMs value corners, though, cuz the franchise tags are about the same dollar value currently.
And yeah, my theory does have a tinge of bitterness in it. I don’t like all the rules that blatantly favor more scoring. Makes me think the NFL was starting to see the arena league as a threat.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
a name
that hasn’t been mentioned here much is jason paul pierre we all know we need a pass rush and maybe it’s time for vrable to move inside….
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 6:04 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
I think it would be too early for you to give up on Vrable where he is. And plus who know I like JPP but he could be a bust and for sure is going to be Raw
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Very true
He has shot up the board with not a lott of stats in 2009 to warrant it
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
i agree he's raw.. but this fifth pick seems to be kind if a weird one if pioli seems not to have interest in berry. why not go for a pass rusher... my default picks will always be oline and pass rushers
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 6:51 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes
Okung would be the pick at Tackle
Graham is intrigueing me at Vrabels spot
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions
i agree on okung and i think graham would have to fall for us to get him i keep hearing mid to late first
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 7:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Drafttek
has Graham at # 9 for a pick
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I like Graham, and pass rushers in general
Thing is, I started listing out possible KC draftees (yeah, I’m that hard up), and there was like 37 OLB prospects up and down the draft. This draft is VERY deep at hybrid pass rushers, with NO clear top prospects. Pass rusher is always one of the most dangerous high picks, anyway, and even more so this year.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
And Graham is one of the best of 'em, especially because he's a beast pass-rusher you can't run at.
That’s the great appeal, here. He’s not just a gap-shooter, but an overpowering presence. I sometimes speak a different language than Steve_Chiefs, but going for this particular ’tweener has its merits.
Yeah, Graham looks real good
But he looked awesome at the Senior Bowl, and that scares me. End of season phenoms have scared me ever since Blackledge.
I do think an OLB needs to be got somewhere in the first three rounds, though. And no matter what, I’d love to see us take a flyer on a prospect like Schofield or somebody in the fifth. Somebody good almost has to fall.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
As a general rule, dominant CB, WR, OT, DL are harder to come by.
They’re generally more attractive to me than ANY LB, no matter how shiny and new.
‘Tweeners like Graham aren’t all THAT rare, with all the DEs who aren’t really big enough to be NFL widebodies in ‘most every draft. But this isn’t a guy who JUST out-quicks people, but is also overpowering AND quick enough to finish the play. But ‘tweeners who are known as pass-rushers usually aren’t all that great against the run, and Graham is.
So he’s a special player. That doesn’t mean it’s necessarily SMART to get a gold-plated LB, while the team is still in rebuild. I just think that kind of player can have a profoundly positive impact on the style of D KC can run – more of a dictating scheme, rather than a read-and-react scheme.
Last year, our smartest LB was mostly playing SOLB, with nobody on the roster better for the job. I’d rather see Vrabel playing mostly inside and behind bigger, more dominant SOLB, NT and (a more experienced) Jackson at LDE. I think Vrabel would be able to direct traffic better, not get tied up in the trash as often (let a younger, bigger player do that), and be closer to the action, with a free step to go where he wants.
I agree with all that, except for WR.
Never could get too excited about an offensive skill player who only touches the ball about six times per game, IF he’s real good. I dunno, maybe Marty brainwashed me in my sleep or something.
Vrabel’s listed height/weight is fairly big, a little bigger than a typical 3-4 ILB. But it seems like I’ve heard he played ILB before, and I don’t pretend to be a linebackers coach. Anyway, I’d be interested in seeing that experiment, especially if it meant getting a dynamic Lamar Woodley type on the line.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
For the same reason that a dominant corner frees up other players for other duties,
a dominant WR is a threat that must be countered, either by spending YOUR best DB to stop him, or commit extra hats to help in coverage. If the defense dare not come up and press you at the line, your receivers are getting off the line untouched more often (usually the receiver Manning will hit, on any give play, is one who does NOT get jammed), and there’re more guys deep, which opens up what you want to do on the ground.
The dominant WR is essentially blocking TWO guys, if two guys are devoted to nothing else but chasing HIM. You or I might only notice that the RB is having a big day, and might only notice the WR when he misses a block, but drawing two in coverage is as good as blocking two, and it opens up a lot of underneath stuff, if the one guy is dragging two defenders 20+ yards down the field on every passing play.
Yeah, I guess, it's a team sport blah blah blah
I just don’t put much priority on finding a “dominant” WR because so many really good ones come from later in the draft. A “dominant” WR isn’t a physical specimen, he’s just somebody who makes catches, and that depends on the QB and the rest of the offense. So, I guess I tend to credit the QB and the o-line and the scheme more than the WR.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
Just making catches. Heh.
It entails beating your guy(s), 1-on-1 or 2-on-1 in space. One of the reasons they’re so cocky is because of how they can change the entire landscape of a game.
Still, on the “team sport” front, an offense that can’t get it done in the trenches is going to squander a lot of situations where the WR is wide open. I think that characterizes about half of Terrell Owens’s career and about half of his troubles. WR without team is futile. But team without WR is generally futile. You need at least one guy to legitimately stretch the field, or your offense is fighting all its battles inside of 10 yards from the LOS, and losing most of ’em.
Bah, a WR with any ability should beat one on one coverage 75% of the time
because he knows where he’s going, and the DB is just guessing. The offense has all the initiative unless the defense can redirect the WR. The trick is that the QB also has to know where ALL his WRs are going, and be able to get the ball to the spot he wants. And, the routes can’t be predictable to the DBs. So, QB>scheme>WR. That’s why the Colts have such great WRs you never heard of.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
I'm ready to move Vrabel to the inside yesterday.
I think the Chiefs could use more of a beast where Vrabel was last season, and they could use a higher football IQ at the ILB spots. So while I really like Hali as designated “rush LB,” I think I want something similar, maybe even BIGGER, attacking the same way from the STRONG side.
Would be cool
But they’d lose a lot of savvy covering the TEs and RBs on the strong side. Guess they have to bite that bullet sooner or later, though.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
It's not a question of covering these guys in the pattern with a LB.
And that’s where I disagree with the majority of conventional thinkers, here.
To me it’s more that the offense will fear running at your guy, and your guy typically smacks the TE in the mouth on every play. Playing the OLB off the ball and trying to run with an unjammed TE in the pattern cedes the initiative to the offense, and is a mismatch against about 80% of the league’s TEs, even by the best LBs.
If you want guys who can cover TEs and RBs down the field, then run nickel all day. And if you plan to run nickel all day, you better have extra stout in your front 5, which brings us back to someone like Graham at OLB. Heh.
I guess I didn't really mean "covering" when I said, uh, "covering..."
I meant more like dealing with the extra guy on the strong side, reading whether it’s run or pass, what kind of run or pass, and deciding what to do, whether that means rushing or covering or smacking somebody upside the head. Where weakside just reads run or pass, and either rushes or contains on most plays. Strongside takes some smarts and, preferably, experience. That’s gonna be lacking in most any rookie, but like I said, that’s something that has to be dealt with sooner or later. You can’t draft a vet, I don’t think.
The path to Victory is made of losers.
The more dominant he is, the less he has to think and the more the offense has to think about stopping him.
Run or pass, it pretty much entails attacking in the QB’s direction, and running over any TEs or RBs you meet along the way. If one of ‘em happens to have the ball, it’s a TFL, but I really want to see that SOLB transacting his business on the offense’s side of the line, and we didn’t see enough of that last year, even though Vrabel and Studebaker were pretty smart about their assignments.
Haven't seen you much lately
everything well?
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions
i've been good...
still lurking… just been super busy with work try to validate a bunch of point of care testing for dr’s offices
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 6:48 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
good
I thought maybe AP pissed you off.
You always have a valid take on stuff:)
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Pass Rush
I agree pass rush is important, but I am not ready to give up on the guys we have now. With that being said I dont think we can pass up on Berry. With Flowers, Carr, Paige, and Berry back there, that will be a secondary that will be feard by all passers.
maybe Flowers, Berry, Page and another draft pick for SS :)
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The draft could help provide both
Berry in the first to help the secondary and Jerry Hughes in the 2nd to help the pass rush.
Chiefs draft wishlist:
Berry, then a combo of BPA and NEED
Time to take back the AFC West
Go Chiefs
by King of the Cassel on Mar 20, 2010 6:26 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Situational rusher?
subbing in for Studebaker?
I don’t want Hali off the field
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions
i just can't buy studebaker as an nfl starter
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 6:53 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Just maybe a backup
but Stude trucking down the field is a need we have.
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions
If we're gonna drop that much coin
the only player in the Top 10 I could justify that on is Suh. Not a player on the board who is as freakishly athletic as he. He’s the Julius Peppers of DT’s and as sure a bet as Orlando Pace was. The thought he could fall into Gunther’s hands is a god damn shame.
D.J. #56 - Pay The Man & Play The Man
The only thing more lame than mock draft's is the sarcasm font.
by KansasCityShuffle on Mar 20, 2010 6:37 PM CDT reply actions
yes
agreed
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions
What's happening bro?
I’m stuck in airport in Redding missing the game. Can’t find the scores either. Are the Hawks losing?
D.J. #56 - Pay The Man & Play The Man
The only thing more lame than mock draft's is the sarcasm font.
by KansasCityShuffle on Mar 20, 2010 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes by 4 with 18.1 left
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
now by 5
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok now a 3 point game with 6.2 seconds left
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Iowa just beat Kansas wow what an upset
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions
northern iowa…. wow what a game…. i gotta think tennesee comes out of that bracket
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 6:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
They did it!
What an upset
Official Member of the Draft Chuck Berry Fanclub
"What the world needs is more geniuses with humility, there are so few of us left."
i love the Chiefs
who is winning the Kansas game?
Are we the team to beat in 2010? I sure think so! Go Chiefs.
Right?
KU has mastered the art form of choking at the Big Dance. It’s a good thing Self stole one from Memphis otherwise it would be of epic proportion – where it borderlines now
D.J. #56 - Pay The Man & Play The Man
The only thing more lame than mock draft's is the sarcasm font.
by KansasCityShuffle on Mar 20, 2010 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions
good thing i didn’t fill out a bracket this year. it would be effed by now
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 7:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I bet there is not a single person with a perfect bracket now.
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions
i think after the first round espn said there were only 56 perfect brackets left out of about 4 million
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 7:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I heard 3 midway through friday
I think there are 0 Zero now
"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli
by Steve_Chiefs on Mar 20, 2010 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions
That was after the first DAY
Thought I heard there were no perfect ESPN brackets after round 1.
Are kids getting less consistent every year, or am I just getting grouchier?
The path to Victory is made of losers.
adios
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions
odds on the Chiefs in the Superbowl next year?
im going to just go ahead and call it a lock with us defeating the Vikings 35-0
Are we the team to beat in 2010? I sure think so! Go Chiefs.
Wow Kansas only one this game when they were up 2-0 that is crazy
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
Chiefs suck, Notre Dame sucks, Royals suck...
Mixing Drano-colada now.
Sometimes the best way to convince someone he is wrong is to let him have his way. --- Red O'Donnell
can i have your avatar pick on the way out gatsby?
Are we the team to beat in 2010? I sure think so! Go Chiefs.
and what do you mean the Royals suck
B. Anderson hit for the cycle yesterday and the Royals won 24-9 and would have been 24-4 if they hadnt put in Farnsaggedon
Are we the team to beat in 2010? I sure think so! Go Chiefs.
the royals are going to be awesome ankiel is going to hit 40 jacks…. notre dame is going to score 52.4 ppg and the chiefs will go 6-10 but make the playoffs by beating everyone in our dvision twice
by callmesir on Mar 20, 2010 7:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
and the world will end this year instead of 2012
right as Succop is about to kick the game winning field goal in the Superbowl!
Are we the team to beat in 2010? I sure think so! Go Chiefs.
im out
everyone have a good night! Hope to see some good Chiefs news in the morning!
Are we the team to beat in 2010? I sure think so! Go Chiefs.
Getting high off Chiefs vs Broncos II
To supplement the lack of Chiefs news.
The Chiefs will see a return to respectability in 2010, emerging as the front runner in the AFC West! ....And I'll quantify that however I choose. Ahem.
BYU vs Kansas St update...
BYU started strong, but K-State has a 10 point lead right now (31 -41 with 3.0 sec in the 1st).
KANSAS CITY CHIEFS 2010 DRAFT: (top 6 picks)
1.05) Eric Berry (S – Tennessee)
2.36) Jerry Hughes (DE/OLB – Texas Christian)
2.51) Terrence Codi or Cam Thomas (NT – Alabama / NC)
3.68) Jon Asamoah (OL – Illinois)
4.99) Jordan shipley (WR/PR – Texas)
5.133) Mitch Petrus (OL – Arkansas)
Not very exiting game
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions
sez who? Go State!!!!!!!!!!
Official Member: Eric Berry Fan Club
Tweet me @GiftNate
N. Gift
by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 20, 2010 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Says I :)
I want a close competitive game
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
watched it...lol too bad KU...no really
Official Member: Eric Berry Fan Club
Tweet me @GiftNate
N. Gift
by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 20, 2010 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Middle of a spring snowstorm here in the Ozarks...
Kickin back with some beer and watching the ’97 night game vs the Chargers at home. Damn I loved that D!
Virtus In Arduo
by carthagechief on Mar 20, 2010 8:25 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Thomas jones
Does anyone have a clue what his number is gonna be since Donald Washington already has the no. 20..or do you think they will make Washington just switch his jersey number
Nope Thomas jones probably changes his number I think
Co-Leader of the annual 7 round live mock draft at MtD
by TheAngelsColts on Mar 20, 2010 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I bet he does also.
The Chiefs will see a return to respectability in 2010, emerging as the front runner in the AFC West! ....And I'll quantify that however I choose. Ahem.
I went to Outback Steakhouse with the g/f
We ate an ungodly amount of food and it was good. I talked her into watching hurtlocker with me so we’re about to do that.
Cry Havoc! And let slip the Chiefs Defense of War!!!
by nateforchiefs on Mar 20, 2010 9:54 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
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