Chiefs CB Brandon Flowers Wonders If 40 Times Matter At The NFL Combine
by Joel Thorman on Mar 2, 2010 1:00 PM CST
in 2010 Kansas City Chiefs Draft
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PrintKansas City Chiefs CB Brandon Flowers has taken to his Twitter account to reflect on his experience at the NFL Combine. The NFL Combine for many teams is becoming a meet-and-greet with the league's agents and incoming prospects.
Teams have been criticized in the past for putting too much stock into 40-yard dash times and vertical leaps so this year I've heard that many teams have the basis for their draft board set heading into the Combine.
Flowers, however, feels his stock was hurt at the Combine two years ago. Flowers says he was the No. 1 corner heading into the NFL Combine but after his 40-yard dash time -- 4.56 -- he dropped to No. 6.
"[W]hy play college football these says when "experts" judge talent now by 40 times rather than film?" he asked.
It's a great question and the merits of which have been debated plenty of times.
The NFL Combine is good because it gets a lot of NFL folks under one roof but the actual drills are suited for track and field athletes, not necessarily NFL players.
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i like Brandon Flowers...
But the guy was never the #1 corner going into that draft.
He did fall a lot though.
Can’t find the video or article, but during the 2008 draft Mayock (or maybe Kiper) was talking about how Flowers fell pretty far because of his 40 time. He was widely regarded as one of the best corners in that draft, but was the 4th or 5th one to go. Aqib Talib, Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Mike Jenkins and Antoine Cason went before him. And Leodis McKelvin was the first corner taken.
I have a feeling that when all of the corners from that class are retired, we’ll have had the best corner in that draft.
My sentiments are likely to be summed up with one of these 2 quotes:
"Shut the f--- up."- Matt Cassel
"WHAT THE F---?!?!"- Todd Haley
by Red N Gold Beast on Mar 2, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
As much as I love Flowers
I don’t know that I’d be so bold as to consider him the best of that class, even after their careers have all played out. He may be more important to his team than any of the rest but I think in terms of production that’s a pretty damn strong class without much difference, up or down, between any of those 6 (Talib, DRC, Jenkins, Cason, Flowers, and McKelvin).
I think I remember him being projected, pre-Combine, around the 15-25 spots though so he did fall significantly if that’s correct.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
At the be
Mike Mayock released his Top 50 players available in that draft, and Flowers was #7 overall…and yes, he was the highest CB on that list.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
That subject should have read
“At the beginning of the draft”
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
Agree.
What was Jerry Rice’s time? Like 4.6 or something?
I love speed on the field, but there is straight line speed and field speed. I rather have field speed.
Man crush on Eric Berry.
Seriously?!
Tell me you had to look that up! I can hardly keep jersey numbers straight let alone 40times from 20 years ago!
Impressive
4.71
is what i read jerry rice 40 time was……but that was on wikipedia so take it for what its worth….but i remember hearing it was something slow
I'm pretty sure it was 4.54
I don’t believe that was his combine time, but the time he posted at school after the combine, and one of the reasons San Francisco moved up in front of us to take him. The rumor I remember is the 9ers moved up in front of us specifically to take him, because a few of our coaches had fallen in love with him.
I dunno that might have been Irvin’s or Sterling Sharpe’s time, but I’m pretty sure it was Rice’s.
Pathetically enough it was right off of the top of my head.
by mcclanahanman on Mar 7, 2010 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
I liken the Combine to the American Kennel Club dog shows.
“That dog sure does look pretty, but can it fight?”
It’s a distraction, smoke and mirrors for the NFL. Sure they are “testing” the prospects but there is so much else going on there in the background. Lots of wheeling and dealing going on that we know nothing about.
Yeah, let's just keep matriculatin' the ball down the field, boys! ...
disagree with this:
The NFL Combine is good because it gets a lot of NFL folks under one roof but the actual drills are suited for track and field athletes, not necessarily NFL players.
The 40, broad jump, vertical, etc. are certainly more relatable to track and field, but the drills? The shuttles? Those are pretty good stuff. The problem is that people get so wrapped up in the 40 because it’s easier for people to understand than the cone drill, and easier to quantify than the actual position drills (throwing for QBs, pickoff drills for DBs, etc.).
I have beat wholesale ass for a whole lot less.
I agree BOh....
….Watching the DBs run the “W” drills where they have to intercept the pass at the end. This drill made one thing VERY clear to me: If you can’t catch a ball at the end of a drill where they tell you the ball is going to be there then you will not be getting too many INTs in this league. It about made me sick to see some of those guys drop those ball.
My bold prediction and I think our best chance at moving down in the 1st. Bret Favre retires, Tavarris Jackson is not retained or leaves and the Vikings trade up, with our beloved Chiefs, for Jimmy Claussen.
WRITE IT DOWN!
Yes and...
The 40 time is actually 3 different tests: 10 yds 20yds and 40 yds
And the most important time to scouts is the 10yd time. It’s designed to see how quickly a guy gets up to full speed. It’s more about explosiveness than anything.
The future is ours KC Chiefs fans!!!!!
N. Gift
by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 2, 2010 1:31 PM CST up reply actions
I disagree
Your doing the drill in your underware, not in football pads.
Your range of motion and shoulder rotation in pads is completely different than in shirts and underarmor shirts.
Players that can catch a ball at the end of a drill by reaching full extention above their heads may not be able to reach like that in pads. The extra pads on your hips and legs can affect your ability to turn and rotate, and the extra weight of the pads will affect your acceleration and deceleration.
Drills in underware are almost meaningless as it applies to the NFL and game time. All you are really finding out is if the guy is horrible or not. They shouldt even take times, etc…
They should just get all the scouts and coaches together and decide what is “acceptable” at your position (some lowball number) and have the players come out and compete pass/fail agaisnt that min. required number. Cut out all the rising and falling that happens over players that are .12 seconds faster in their underware, or that jump .3 feet higher etc…
It’s mostly meaningless.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
if he
wouldnt have dropped,he would not be a chief.
by cainsbigonchiefs on Mar 2, 2010 1:15 PM CST reply actions
Exactly...
Stupid teams that focus on the combine (Raiders cough cough), give smart teams (us, Patriots) an opportunity to snatch quality players that otherwise would have gone higher.
The 40 yard dash is not a flaw its a feature haha.
On that note I like how Spikes is falling (maybe our 3rd rounder), and I like how Ciron Black is falling (maybe our 4th rounder). Although Petrus is giving me fits…45 bench…frickin mutant haha.
by MasterBlaster7 on Mar 2, 2010 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
Flowers is the guy I always use as an example
When I have a discussion about why 40 times don’t matter.
Does a CB cover a receiver by facing the wrong direction and starting from a 3 point stance? How many times does a defensive tackle run 40 yards in a straight line in his entire career?
These defensive players pursue or cover a guy and tackle them every play. Unless they’re playing special teams, they may not run 40 yards in a straight line the entire game.
hey Guys
Wasn’t Flowers sent down to workout with Haden (or some other DB prospect) in Florida recently?
What ever became of that?
by chiefsfan62 on Mar 2, 2010 1:15 PM CST via mobile reply actions
He was in Alabama yesterday getting his checkup on his shoulder surgery.
He’s suppost to be back in KC for a day.
Yeah, let's just keep matriculatin' the ball down the field, boys! ...
thought it was Berry
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
"We couldn't beat the Chiefs, but we damn near killed their horse."
-- Madden
It was Berry.
Legally at least though, he wasn’t sent, and as you can tell from his Twitter, he’s not talking about it.
Couple that with the fact that the few drills that actually do cater to NFL players versus track stars
don’t have much value if the top contenders in the draft refuse to participate in them. I think it’s stupid. I like the Combine. I enjoyed it. It was my first experience with it. But the drills that really mattered, for example the throwing drills for prospective QB’s, had very limited participation.
I don’t think they ought to allow you to pick and choose which drills you participate in. If you don’t do them all, you don’t do them at all.
What I don't understand is
why don’t they do the drills in full pads?
Predictions:
This year will be better
And why is there no Combine for Cheerleaders?
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Mar 2, 2010 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
haven't you seen the dallas cowboy cheerleaders on CMT?
The future is ours KC Chiefs fans!!!!!
N. Gift
by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 2, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
I've seen them a few timeseverythursdayat8 before.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius
Ahem
Sorry, got a lil bit of a cough.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius
LOL Spread
The future is ours KC Chiefs fans!!!!!
N. Gift
by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 2, 2010 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
There is
I used to be in charge of running the tip drill.
I have beat wholesale ass for a whole lot less.
by burntorangehorn on Mar 2, 2010 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
Must be yo ass cuz it aint yo face.
I need a tipdrill (what?) I need a tipdrill..
-Nelly
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius
why did my +1 play shoots n ladders...that was for the cheerleader comment
by MasterBlaster7 on Mar 2, 2010 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
it is on the cheerleaders comment.
Master the up button you will need to do.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
That's what game tape is for
The future is ours KC Chiefs fans!!!!!
N. Gift
by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 2, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
If you forced them to choose all or nothing
Most top prospects would choose nothing. Its just good business. The NFL needs these players just as much as the players need them.
by alakan81 on Mar 2, 2010 1:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Teams aren’t going to draft a guy in the top 10 thats slower than a grandma with a walker and give him 20 million guaranteed..
thee isn't a guy at the combine
that’s slower than a grandma with a walker.
And that still doesn’t begin to explain why a guy that runs the 40 in .12 LESS seconds than some other guy would rise up the board by 10 spots.
The time difference between the best at the combine and the worst at the combine is usually les than 1 second. You cannot possibly convince me that just because a guy is 1/2 a second faster in a straight line, starting from a 4 point sprinters stance that he is obviously the better player.
Great… yer faster….now what happen when I bump into you while yer running? —-Awwww you fell down and go boom… meanwhile….the just you leaped ahead of based on your 1/2 second faster 40 time is making the catch while you roll around onthe ground.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
The combine is a good place to have some coffee and chat
and in between coffee and bathroom breaks, you get out there and do some drills for the NFL talking heads…heck, what else does the NFL network have to do the other 6 months of the year?
But it’s mostly about scouts chatting it up with players and drinking coffee…LOL
The future is ours KC Chiefs fans!!!!!
N. Gift
List of CBs draft for 2008
2008 – CB
Rd Sel # Player Position School Team
1 11 Leodis McKelvin CB Troy Buffalo Bills
1 16 Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie CB Tennessee State Arizona Cardinals
1 20 Aqib Talib CB Kansas Tampa Bay Buccaneers
1 25 Mike Jenkins CB South Florida Dallas Cowboys
1 27 Antoine Cason CB Arizona San Diego Chargers
2 35 Brandon Flowers CB Virginia Tech Kansas City Chiefs
2 40 Tracy Porter CB Indiana New Orleans Saints
2 60 Pat Lee CB Auburn Green Bay Packers
2 62 Terrence Wheatley CB Colorado New England Patriots
2 63 Terrell Thomas CB USC New York Giants
3 68 Chevis Jackson CB Louisiana State Atlanta Falcons
3 75 Reggie Smith DB Oklahoma San Francisco 49ers
3 79 Antwaun Molden CB Eastern Kentucky Houston Texans
4 100 Tyvon Branch CB Connecticut Oakland Raiders
4 101 Justin King CB Penn State St. Louis Rams
4 113 Dwight Lowery CB San Jose State New York Jets
4 114 Reggie Corner DB Akron Buffalo Bills
4 119 Jack Williams CB Kent State Denver Broncos
4 120 Craig Steltz DB Louisiana State Chicago Bears
4 124 Justin Tryon CB Arizona State Washington Redskins
4 129 Jonathan Wilhite CB Auburn New England Patriots
4 131 Jack Ikegwuonu CB Wisconsin Philadelphia Eagles
5 140 Brandon Carr CB Grand Valley State Kansas City Chiefs
5 142 Zack Bowman CB Nebraska Chicago Bears
5 143 Orlando Scandrick CB Boise State Dallas Cowboys
5 159 Trae Williams CB South Florida Philadelphia Eagles
6 180 Kareem Moore DB Nicholls State Washington Redskins
6 192 DeJuan Tribble CB Boston College San Diego Chargers
7 212 Wilrey Fontenot CB Arizona Arizona Cardinals
7 218 Caleb Campbell DB Army Detroit Lions
7 220 Josh Barrett DB Arizona State Denver Broncos
7 229 Cary Williams CB Washburn Tennessee Titans
7 251 Kennard Cox CB Pittsburgh Jacksonville Jaguars
I wonder how Carr will stack up
by the end of his career. How many of those guys stack up to him now. It was a pretty good draft for DB’s.
Man...a lot of corners were taken in that draft
By the numbers…on Pro Football Focus…Flowers is ranked almost exactly with Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie. Say what you will about Herm…but the man could sure pick safeties and corners.
Ok, I will
Say what you will about Herm
Herm Edwards was a pasny ass ‘players coach’ that was not nearly the disiplinarian that a building team needs. His game time desicsions, play calls, and clock management were all in close contention for the worst in the league. As a ‘defensive’ coach he managed to field a lousy defense, and we got just what we expected to get out of an offense that hands it off tot he same tired, broken, mouthy asshole of a running back 416 times during the course of 1 season. On top of all that, his only success (if you wanna call 1 and done a successful season) as the coach of the Chiefs came off the back of a veteran lead Vermeil team that just barely squeeked into the playoffs out of sheer luck after a list of FIVE teams that all needed to lose in week 17 magically came true.
ok, I feel better now.
However, if you’d like to pat him ont he back for choosing Brandon Flowers for CB you go right ahead and do that. Even a blind squirrel gets a nut every now and then.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Times, bench press reps, and all that
stuff is fine. But, it does not answer the most pressing question about any potential player which is “Can he play football?” Heart. soul, desire, and love of the game cannot be timed or measured.
I dont see how anyone can say he "dropped"
Including himself. I remember most mock drafts having him going late 1st round to the Packers (30th overall). The Packers ended up trading that pick to the Jets (who took Dustin Keller) and Flowers went 35th overall.
The studs from the 2010 draft class will be: DT Ndamukong Suh, S Eric Berry, RB C.J. Spiller, RB Jahvid Best, WR Arrelious Benn, WR Golden Tate, WR Mardy Gilyard, OT Charles Brown, CB Kyle Wilson and S Chad Jones
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