Did Tyson Jackson Disappoint as a Rookie?
by bbear200 on Mar 10, 2010 9:11 PM CST
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PrintThe prevailing opinion is that Tyson Jackson was a big reach at #3 last year and had a disappointing season as a rookie. This is in spite of the fact that Jackson was named to the All-Rookie team (along with K Ryan Succop) as selected by the Pro Football Writers of America and Pro Football Weekly. But did Jackson really disappoint or did he have a good first year at a position that’s not very glamorous and is very difficult to master in the pros?
Here’s Tyson Jackson’s first year stats (playing for one of the worst defenses in the NFL in 2009 and, arguably, one of the worst of the entire decade):
Tackles Sacks
Tyson Jackson 38 0.0
Now let’s compare his first year to the first year of a few other 3-4 Defensive Ends (I’ve also included their second year to track their development). I’ve scoured the Internet for “best 3-4 defensive end lists” and the top 4 of the last 20 years seem to be:
Player Tackles Sacks
-First Year 44 3.0
-Second Year 56 5.5
-First Year 33 1.0
-Second Year 48 3.5
-First Year 42 4.0
-Second Year 28 8.0
-First Year 53 8.5
-Second Year 39 5.0
As you can see, only Shaun Ellis was stud in his first year.
Here’s a handful of younger 3-4 defensive ends that are mentioned as strong or near-elite players:
Player Tackles Sacks
-First Year 28 0.0
-Second Year 48 7.0
-First Year 31 1.5
-Second Year 45 1.0
-First Year 24 0.5
-Second Year 25 1.0
By the way, just for fun, here’s Glenn Dorsey’s second year as a pro, first year as a 3-4 defensive end (and he missed 1 game):
Tackles Sacks
Glenn Dorsey 54 1.0
bbear200's analysis: Trust in Scott Pioli. Both Jackson and Dorsey performed at a promising level for their first year as 3-4 defensive ends in the National Football League. In spite of the fact that they were weakly coached and had a NT in the middle that wouldn’t even make many other rosters in the NFL as a backup.
Can’t wait to see what Crennel can do when he coaches these guys in the nuances of the 3-4 defense and when Pioli adds an NFL caliber NT (maybe the newly arrived Shaun Smith) through free agency or draft. 2010 may not be the breakout year, but feel good about 2011.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Most Defenseive Linemen Take Time
Give him another year or two and he will be in pro form. It’s a tough transition, especially so for DL. We’ll see what the case is. He’ll be just fine I believe.
Toby Gerhart: The Thunder to Jamaal Charles' Lightning.
True and Valuable Quotes:
"Charles In Charge"
"Defense Wins Championships"
"The Battle is Won and Lost in the Trenches"
(which for the most part we are currently loosing).
Agreed
But to answers the authos question…yes. How could you not be disappointed in Jacksons play? His “numbers” may be somewhat comprable to other rookie D lineman but…just watching Jackson get dominated at the line of scrimmage all year was pretty disappointing.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Mar 10, 2010 9:26 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
Hate to see any chief get dominated and disappointed in his play. I’m hoping it’s just the rookie DL season and he rebounds greatly this year. if he does, Dorsey stays solid and we get a decent NT for long term we could have one of the best DL in the league.
Toby Gerhart: The Thunder to Jamaal Charles' Lightning.
True and Valuable Quotes:
"Charles In Charge"
"Defense Wins Championships"
"The Battle is Won and Lost in the Trenches"
(which for the most part we are currently loosing).
Well we should
I don’t know that any team in the 3-4 has two starters on the line drafted in the top 5. These guys are making an absurd amount of cash so the expectations are set pretty high. But all in all…as hard as I’ve been on Jackson, I won’t rule out a breakout second season…but speaking only of his rookie season…the guy struggled more than the Chiefs expected…they’ve said so themselves.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Mar 10, 2010 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
Yea Agreed, it was rather disappointing.
They know they didn’t expect a complete monster from him, but they want a sold performance.
Toby Gerhart: The Thunder to Jamaal Charles' Lightning.
True and Valuable Quotes:
"Charles In Charge"
"Defense Wins Championships"
"The Battle is Won and Lost in the Trenches"
(which for the most part we are currently loosing).
2 Words
Romeo Crennel
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Mar 11, 2010 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
it was a sad sight
The problem that irks me most about it was that he didn’t seem to improve through the year. The “it takes dline a couple years” argument is valid but there must be improvement!
Yes but one season isn't a couple years, give time my friend
Toby Gerhart: The Thunder to Jamaal Charles' Lightning.
True and Valuable Quotes:
"Charles In Charge"
"Defense Wins Championships"
"The Battle is Won and Lost in the Trenches"
(which for the most part we are currently loosing).
I disagree
Jackson started coming along nicely towards the end of the year IMO. I think TJax will be a fine 34 DE.
Don't blame me, I voted for content of character.
definitely He can be very good DL for us,
The last 8 games he played, he shown positive improvement in his play
You're even ignoring the fact that most of his numbers came in the second half of the season
He’s progressing quite nicely. Throw a good NT in the mix and I think we’re gonna be alright on d line until someone leaves
True that
Jackson only had 5 total tackles through the first 7 games
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/gamelog?playerId=12435
The studs from the 2010 draft class will be: DT Ndamukong Suh, S Eric Berry, RB C.J. Spiller, RB Jahvid Best, WR Arrelious Benn, WR Golden Tate, WR Mardy Gilyard, OT Charles Brown, CB Kyle Wilson and S Chad Jones
And Dorsey
The studs from the 2010 draft class will be: DT Ndamukong Suh, S Eric Berry, RB C.J. Spiller, RB Jahvid Best, WR Arrelious Benn, WR Golden Tate, WR Mardy Gilyard, OT Charles Brown, CB Kyle Wilson and S Chad Jones
And his overall quality of play isn't measured by tackles.
But he does bear responsibility for the performance of the D as a whole. Or he will, once NT is fixed. This is going to be a team built around the trenches, and the guys in the trenches are there as facilitators, more than finishers.
I think that NT makes a big difference.
I don’t know about all those guys, but I would be willing to be that there was a bit more support from the NT demanding double teams and a stout pass rush that made a difference. How do you think all those guys would do lining up to ron edwards 40 minutes a game all season during their rookie year?
Give it time. By it, I mean Tjax, the rest of the defensive front, and crennel.
NOPE
noone expected him to come in and make 70 tackles and ten sacks……give him time
Can't be too hard on Edwards...
In spite of the fact that they were weakly coached and had a NT in the middle that wouldn’t even make many other rosters in the NFL as a backup.
….at that position.
We were in a tight spot last year and were trying to fit many 4-3 DT’s into a 3-4 hybrid at OLB, DE or NT position. The only one who was drafted to play on a 3-4 DL position was T-Jax. Give them time…
Tweet me @GiftNate
N. Gift
by giftedchiefsfan on Mar 10, 2010 9:54 PM CST reply actions
Edwards did fine when he was fresh
He just started fading late in games and we didn’t have Tank Tyler to come in and help out after we traded him.
Edwards is going to make a good rotational guy to have around.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Mar 11, 2010 12:03 AM CST up reply actions
I think...
Crennel is going to throw some 4-3 looks if we get a premere ILB.
RE Hali
UT Dorsey
NT Smith/Thomas/Troup (pick 2b/3rd)
LE Jackson
WLB Williams
MLB McClain (pick 2a)
SLB Vrabel/Studebaker???
This could help with Dorsey’s biggest weakness, getting consistent pressure by putting him in a three technique.
1. Suh will fall to us at 5
2. McClain will fall to us at 2a
3. The Chiefs will trade DJ and Dorsey
Just curious...
But how do Jackson and Corsey’s numbers stack up against the first year numbers of 3-4 DEs that sucked?
Predictions:
1) Fans will feel just scads better from mid-to-end of the 2010 season.
2) During the 2021 season, Ryan Succop will become the Chiefs’ all-time leading scorer with 1469 points.
.
if you look at jackson’s stats, he really stepped up his game towards the end of the year
TJax’s tackles by week:
w1-1
w2-1
w3-0
w4-0
w5-1
w6-2
w7-0
w8-bye
w9-7
w10-1
w11-1
w12-0
w13-3
w14-8
w15-4
w16-6
w17-3
there was obvious improvement in the 4th quarter of the season. i think he will have a very solid, run-stuffing sophmore year, picking up where he left off.
dhalsim, beat the game
level 8, hella geat
Answer is easy
No, Tyson Jackson was a rookie defensive lineman, and rookie defensive lineman do not dominate. They take time to develop, and as others have already mentioned he got better as the season went on.
I think Tyson will be just fine
for all the reasons most everyone has already stated. Jackson is never going to probably put up huge stats, but he will start eating up blockers for our LB’s. I’m guessing year 2 will see a huge improvment.
www.reverbnation.com/myfairweatherfriends
T-Jax had a better rookie year than Dorsey did. If he can advance as much as Dorsey did in year 2, he’ll be a premier 3-4 DE.
Apples to oranges since they were in different schemes
Not a fair comparison.
Different schemes and different positions
but the comparison is valid because he wasn’t comparing stats or production but saying Dorsey struggled as a rookie but started playing very nicely in his second year. I think TJAX will suprise some people this coming year, especially if we get a real NT. Our D just may suprise some people around the NFL and AP for that matter.
Don't blame me, I voted for content of character.
my problem with this is the last sentence....
thats what everyone said last year…“maybe not 09 but 2010 will be real good”
Fair(er) Comparisons
Alright, first off, before you even look at the stats you have to consider the philosophy of the 3-4 defensive linemen. Traditionally, 3-4 DL are primarily space eaters. They are taught to essentially hold their ground at a spot and not let anyone through. If the RB wants to run to your side, they have to go around you, because you aren’t budging. This is why the 3-4 is so hard to block, because you will never have a DL take himself out of the play because he is overpursing. They are also taught to defend the run first. So unlike Jared Allen in a 43 defense, who takes off from the snap like a bat out of hell, the DE is content staying engaged with the blocker and preventing the run from going to his side.
Now that we have that out of the way, lets take a look at the stats you posted. While all of the players you listed are or have been 3-4 DEs, they play in slight different schemes. Aaron Smith plays in a very aggressive zone blitz 3-4 that Dick LeBeau has perfected. Thus, he is asked to rush the passer more, so not a great comparison. Also you mention Shaun Ellis. While New York ran the 3-4 while Mangini was there and they now run a 46 defense under Rex Ryan, those numbers you posted of Ellis were actually when Ellis was playing in a 4-3 defense under Herm Edwards, so not a fair comparison there.
The fairest comparisons are to Seymour and Warren, because New England runs the same defense that we do (obviously). Keep in mind that RDE and LDE have slightly different roles in the 3-4 defense that Pioli/Crennel/Belichick run. The RDE is asked to rush the passer more than the LDE and the LDE is more focused on run support. For us, Glenn Dorsey plays RDE and T-Jax plays LDE. For New England, Seymour manned the right side, and Ty Warren plays LDE. Thus, the fairest comparisons would be comparing Seymour’s rookie season with Dorsey’s second season (this year; first year in a new scheme, essentially another rookie year) and comparing Warren’s first year with Jackson’s season this year.
When you make this comparison, the seasons were pretty close. Yes, I realize you came to the same conclusion as me, but I just wanted to make some additional clarification. That took way longer than I wanted it to…
And thats why i only read the first and last sentence....
Naw jk… good info!!
Don't blame me, I voted for content of character.
Tyson Jackson didn't disappoint me as a rookie.
Granted, my expectations were pretty low based on his collegiate play, so his mediocre performance wasn’t a disappointment to how I had figured he’d do.
Boycott Facebook. It's lame. Inform your real friends that you're going to communicate with them like a normal human being, and then delete your account. Seriously.
by burntorangehorn on Mar 11, 2010 6:31 AM CST reply actions
YES
If the draft was held after the season based on performance, Mr. Jackson would have to wait several hours on the second day of the draft before he would hear his name called. I’m one that also believe it takes time for O/D lineman to develope because of the techniques used in the trenches. But Tyson really did not show anything to justify his draft position, now that is not his fault, its Pioli’s fault. But like they say, “whats the best thing about rookies, they become second year players.” Hopefully this will apply to our young D-linemen Alex Mcgee(will have the better career) and Jackson.
Va4Luv606
Disagree.
Magee will not have the better career. As Jackson develops he will take over permanently and not give up much time to anyone. Magee won’t get the playing time over Jackson. If he does, what was the point of taking Jackson. You take your 1st rd pick to become a starter an impact player for the team. Not to draft another 3rd round DE and let him be better and better career.
Toby Gerhart: The Thunder to Jamaal Charles' Lightning.
True and Valuable Quotes:
"Charles In Charge"
"Defense Wins Championships"
"The Battle is Won and Lost in the Trenches"
(which for the most part we are currently loosing).
I don't think playing time should be justified by draft position by this point
Well, not at 5-tech lineman, anyway. In other words, if Magee were to outplay Jackson, I would fully expect him to get the reps.
Boycott Facebook. It's lame. Inform your real friends that you're going to communicate with them like a normal human being, and then delete your account. Seriously.
by burntorangehorn on Mar 11, 2010 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
Magee is our RDE situational guy
Playing a similar role that Jarvis Green played in NE. I think he will excel in that role.
I like Tyson. The one thing I really appreciate about him is his motor.
For that alone I can understand Piolis urgency in picking him up. I would never judge a rookie learning the NFL version of a 34 with the Chiefs of 09. Horrible situation to arrive in as a rookie. I think in most cases, a rookie like that would NEVER have started for any team.
He would have been gradually worked in and given time to learn what he needed to be successful. Talk about throwing someone to the wolves. But not the KC wolves. That’s even worse. Now he will have some real coaching. They guy NEVER gives up on a play.
He misses a lot of assignments which is to be expected, but every time they show a defensive highlight reel, he’s in the picture. He’s motoring. He never quits until the whistle is blown. I love that about him. He will be fine when he’s not surrounded by players who were drafted for a 43 defense.
Offenses had the luxury of throwing 2 or 3 bodies at him every play, and usually did just that.
No question in my mind that he’s a long-term asset.
tyson jackson
had a good career at LSU ,he had 10 sacks one year and deflected 10 passes in another as well as being a major run stuffer.
He never had 10 in a year...at least not according to the ESPN
This shows that he had 16 in his career including an 8 sack season his sophomore year.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Mar 11, 2010 7:43 PM CST up reply actions
Cesaire
Was a UDFA and played in a 43 his rookie year, as a rotational scrub. You should take him off the list.
Jackson's stats aren't going to show much, until the team around him gets better.
Doesn’t mean he wasn’t doing his job in ‘09. A 3-4 DL getting sacks mainly says to me that the other 8 guys are causing so many problems off of what the DL gives ’em, that the offense is having breakdowns and SOMEbody on the offensive front was blockin’ air and lettin’ the DL get away from ’em. Humiliating, when it happens, but humiliation that is built off LBs and Ss coming free, because, first and foremost, the DL is neutralizing the front 5 of the offense.
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