Why 3-4 Nose Tackle is the Second Most Important Position in the NFL
by Matt Conner on Feb 25, 2010 10:18 AM CST
in 2010 Kansas City Chiefs Draft
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PrintAt this morning's initial press conference at the 2010 NFL Scouting Combine, the subject largely turned to a topic that's central to the needs of the Kansas City Chiefs: acquiring and keeping a good-to-great 3-4 nose tackle. San Francisco 49ers GM Scot McCloughan took the podium just a few minutes ago for questions regarding the Niners' draft plans, roster changes, quarterback situation and much more. But one thing that kept coming back around were the decisions regarding NT Aubrayo Franklin.
The buzz surrounding Franklin -- who we've discussed from time to time on AP -- concentrated on what is perhaps the second most important position in the NFL today. Right after the quarterback position, it seems the 3-4 NT is the prime position to secure in one way or another. And even if you have depth at the position, you don't make a move that would negate your ability to properly man the position with quality players.
In today's NFL, the left tackle position is often noted as the second-most important (i.e. the theories espoused in The Blind Side by Michael Lewis), however the Saints just won the Super Bowl with their back-up left tackle. The Steelers won the Super Bowl with Max Starks, who was often taken to task for being sub par and football writers like Peter King wrote that the o-line would prohibit the Steelers in the end. The Indianapolis Colts traded up to draft Tony Ugoh to be the future left tackle a couple years ago, only to turn to reserve OT Charlie Johnson who was a sixth round choice four seasons ago. In other words, it's really not the rarity its made out to be.
More after the jump:
Instead, McCloughan took several moments to state just how valuable Franklin is and, even without a cap, the Niners were happy to pay the franchise price to at least secure one more year of Franklin's services and the hopes of working out a long-term deal. Unless you're in the Peppersphere when it comes to salary, it seems teams are willing to pony up to keep the nose tackle properly manned.
For the Chiefs, this becomes a real position of importance. The acquisition of highly talented linebackers will surely help some things, but those guys are only released if the defensive line adequately handles the interior offensive line and frees up those athletic ability and pass rushing abilities that you drafted the LB for in the first place. And even though the Chiefs have drafted defensive linemen early the last two seasons, it stands to reason that perhaps this year deserves one more -- a significant body in the middle to team with the guys you already have.
If the Chiefs go elsewhere with their first round pick, don't be surprised to see them grab a nose tackle with their next couple picks, and also expect to see the Chiefs tied to any significant additions at the position. It's the rarity that everyone's already buzzing about here at the combine as names like Ndamukong Suh and Gerald McCoy figure to make life easier for some lucky franchises.
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Clearly the Chiefs need BEEF at that position
But is there really a “must-have” NT player to draft at #5? How deep is the draft at that position? What’s the “value” of a 3-4 NT in the draft?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Needs for 2010:
O-line
D-line
Linebacker
Safety
by Bleedingredandgold on Feb 25, 2010 10:31 AM CST reply actions
Forget about the draft position
If NT is the biggest immediate need on the team, and one guy is clearly better than the rest, it doesn’t matter if you pick him at #5 or #15. Even if we could get him at #15, the fact is that we don’t have a pick that low so barring a trade down (or trade up from the 2nd round) you have to take him at whatever position you are picking. It is what it is, as they say…
Predictions:
This year will be better
Yep
Pioli suspected Tyson Jackson would be available a little later, so he tried to trade down. He couldn’t so he picked him at #3.
I can see the same thing happening with Williams or Cody or whoever Pioli and Crennel think is our franchise NT…except Seattle’s position behind us might make it slightly easier to trade down this year…
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 25, 2010 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
With Picket, Wilfork and now Casey Hampton off the market
we are going to need to spend a high draft pick on a NT, probably in the first or second round.
Predictions:
This year will be better
No panic moves... no reaches.
They will draft a NT. But not necessarily in the first or second round. It’s just crazy the value that teams are placing on the NT. Every good one is being franchised or locked up long term. Is NT now the most important position on the field for a 3-4? I think so.
We are building a fighting force of extwaordinary magnitude.
It just depends on how top-heavy the draft is at NT
I really don’t know what the answer is to that question. If Dan Williams is clearly a much better prospect than the rest of them, then it would probably be wise to consider him…even at #5 overall.
Predictions:
This year will be better
I'm not sure he's so far ahead of the rest, at all
I think Williams, Cody, Troup, Thomas… those are the 4 names that will be in play.
I could see Pioli reaching for Williams if they love him, like they did TJax…
Otherwise, I think they wait until the 2nd round and see where they are
* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* keep Albert at LT, upgrade the positions that NEED upgrading.C, RG, NT, S, LB
Someone brought it up the other day
I like the idea of trading for Shaun Rogers (Romeo connection)
He’s still young(ish) at 30 and we can take a NT in the 4th or 5th round and use our higher draft picks on the other 200 holes this team has.
I wonder what it would take?
"I've only been in love with a beer bottle and a mirror" - Sid Vicious.
by craig in calgary on Feb 25, 2010 10:39 AM CST reply actions
Swap our first rounders? Maybe toss in a late rounder?
They’d be a close to ideal trade partner.
by HIV 2 Elway on Feb 25, 2010 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
I think we can land a starting NT after the 1st.
With all the good NT staying with their teams….they obviously wont need one in the draft.
Personally I would take Terrence Cody with one of our 2nd round picks. They guy is huge but athletic. He is very strong and could take on double/triple teams.
I dont think Dan Williams is a prototypical NT at the NFL level. I think Cody would be just as good if not much better with a later pick.
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
I'd love Cody in the second, just don't think he'll be there.
by HIV 2 Elway on Feb 25, 2010 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
Really?
You think Dan Williams and Cody will be gone in the 1st? I dont know…..especially after Suh and McCoy are gone not that many teams will be targeting the dline in the 1st
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
If any of the teams in front of us pass on a d-lineman for a QB...
I could see them snatching up Cody before we pick in round 2.
by HIV 2 Elway on Feb 25, 2010 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah
or I could see the Chargers taking Cody in Round 1 – they need to start thinking about replacing Jammal Williams.
If Pioli and Crennel are convinced Cody is our guy (not saying they are), Pioli won’t hesitate to grab him at #5
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 25, 2010 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Why didn't Pioli draft NT Raji last year at #3
Instead of Jackson? Raji was rated higher and NT are harder to find than 3-4 DE. If Pioli reaches for Williams or Cody at #5 he has a worse draft strategy than Matt Millen on how to use a top 5 draft pick.
by Chiefs_KC on Feb 25, 2010 10:51 AM CST via mobile reply actions
If he took Raji we would be saying "why didnt Pioli take Jackson"
It takes time to fill all these important positions. We got our DE set and now we can focus on other areas
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
I wouldn't. There are atleast 4 DL with 1st rd grades that could play 3-4 DE in this year's draft
But only one (Williams) maybe two NT if Cody is considered a rd 1 talent
by Chiefs_KC on Feb 25, 2010 10:59 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
There are atleast 4 DL with 1st rd grades that could play 3-4 DE in this year’s draft
Who are they, and who says they could play 3-4 DE?
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 25, 2010 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
McCoy
Suh
Ordrick
That’s it in my opinion and I say they can play a 3-4 DE.
Draft prediction top 10 - 1. Bradford 2. Suh (Chiefs trade up) 3. McCoy 4. Claussen (trade Campbell to Carolina, trade for J Brown) 5. Okung (Detroit) 6. Berry 7. Hayden 8. Campbell 9. Davis (Bills trade for Vick) 10. Morgan (Jags draft Tebow in 2nd round) 2/23/09
by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 25, 2010 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
McCoy at 3-4 DE
would be almost exactly what we have with Dorsey at 3-4 DE.
A prototypical fast 3-tech DT, who happens to be strong enough to demand a double team from a tackle and guard.
We did that because we already had Dorsey when we changed to the 3-4…teams that KNOW they are running the 3-4 would probably not use a 1st round pick on a 4-3 DT in the hopes he could transition to the 3-4 DE.
You have a similar problem with Suh, who is a stellar 3-tech DT, but he does rely on strength more than quickness like Dorsey and McCoy, so it may work, but it’s still a gamble that I don’t think 3-4 teams will take.
Finally, I’m a bit confused about Ordrick - this scouting report says
Odrick is definitely at his best on obvious passing downs, when he can pin his ears back and get up-field. He’s a solid run defender, but this is an area of his game that could use some work. He’s not the type of tackle that requires constant double teams in the run game.
His job as a DE in a 3-4 will be to demand double teams in the run game, especially if he were to play LDE, where the tackle and TE will be on his ass all the time.
But then that same scouting report says
His best fit as a professional may be in a cover 2 defense, or as a defensive end in a 3-4 alignment.
With his pass-rushing abilities and less than fantastic run-stopping, it sounds to me he would be better suited as a LDE in a 4-3, or maybe, if he shed 10-15 pounds, as a RDE. If he dropped 15 pounds he’d be about Jared Allen-sized.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Feb 25, 2010 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
McCoy Suh are both 6'4" while Dorsey is only 6'
They can get their arms up to disrupt passing lanes.
In a 3-4, I want linemen who can consistently command a double team
and we saw Dorsey start to do that this year – Many times Hali was able to run right by the LT, who had to at least pay a little attention to Dorsey.
If the 3 D-linemen can knock down a pass, great. If the 3 d-linemen can occupy six blockers, better than great.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
Cody...
ain’t going 5th overall. As for Raji, he had some serious character concerns. A lot of people believed Raji was an overweight 3 technique and thats what they are saying about Dan Williams this year.
Draft prediction top 10 - 1. Bradford 2. Suh (Chiefs trade up) 3. McCoy 4. Claussen (trade Campbell to Carolina, trade for J Brown) 5. Okung (Detroit) 6. Berry 7. Hayden 8. Campbell 9. Davis (Bills trade for Vick) 10. Morgan (Jags draft Tebow in 2nd round) 2/23/09
by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 25, 2010 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
I think Raji was lacking in the work ethic/character department
And Pioli would have been pretty familiar with Raji considering that he was at Boston College. Jackson has much better intangibles.
Predictions:
This year will be better
NT news is depressing
I was really hoping to land any of the 4-5 free agent NT’s. I see that Hampton just signed a 3 yr 21 mil deal. wilfork will be next. I really thought Packer’s Pickett was our best hope since they drafted Raji but I’m now seeing how important teams see NT’s. I’m feeling like the Shaun Rogers route and drafting a NT in rd 3-5 is the way to go. I’d like the vet prescence with young rookie bringing energy every other series. Troup in the 3rd? This would be fine for me.
On another note I just saw Bo Scaife got restricted free agent tag. Damn, I wanted him! Pickings are slim! This uncapped crap/change of rules sucks butt! There’s nothing out there.
Mr J
KC Chiefs Fan
I like that idea for NT also. There are going to be some good players cut soon
When the uncapped season starts which I think is March 5.
by Chiefs_KC on Feb 25, 2010 11:06 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Were going to...
have to reach at some point in the draft for a capable NT. Would you guys rather reach for Williams at 5, reach for Cody at 2a, reach for Cam Thomas at 2a, or reach for Troup at 2b? This situation sucks. I’m thinking we should roll the dice on Cody. Yeah, the kid is fucking fat, but nobody ran up the middle on Bama. If Troup fall to us at the top of the 3rd, I believe it would be quite a rotation.
Draft prediction top 10 - 1. Bradford 2. Suh (Chiefs trade up) 3. McCoy 4. Claussen (trade Campbell to Carolina, trade for J Brown) 5. Okung (Detroit) 6. Berry 7. Hayden 8. Campbell 9. Davis (Bills trade for Vick) 10. Morgan (Jags draft Tebow in 2nd round) 2/23/09
I'd rather they draft a NT in rd 2 then again in rd 5
Need a rotation and only have one average NT on the roster right now. Lokey isn’t a NT
by Chiefs_KC on Feb 25, 2010 11:03 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ron Edwards could be in the rotation
So drafting one NT would be sufficient
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
Fuck that
Draft prediction top 10 - 1. Bradford 2. Suh (Chiefs trade up) 3. McCoy 4. Claussen (trade Campbell to Carolina, trade for J Brown) 5. Okung (Detroit) 6. Berry 7. Hayden 8. Campbell 9. Davis (Bills trade for Vick) 10. Morgan (Jags draft Tebow in 2nd round) 2/23/09
by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 25, 2010 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
DTs can be found later on
What would be interesting is what happens if one of the 2 big boys at DT are available? Because I cant imagine a top 5 without QBs involved. I dont care, I really dont. We have choices of having the “best” at their position (DT, LB, DB, LT, etc) I think and would be fine with any of the options, although I would prefer LT cuz then we can slide Albert over which helps out positions with 1 move. But I wouldn’t be upset if we go with one of the others. GO CHIEFS. COME BACK. I CANT BE AROUND THIS CHICAGO BASEBALL NONSENSE ITS BRUTAL!! 2 TEAMS!
i think pioli has a plan to get a good NT
why else would we trade tank tyler away when he was improving so much. lets hope we don’t have to worry about drafting one and we just pick up wilfork. or if we dont trust edwards we can draft dan williams and have wilfork
You're a goddamn quarterback! You know what that means? It's the top spot, kid. It's the guy who takes the fall. It's the guy everybody's looking at first - the leader of a team - who will support you when they understand you. Who will break their ribs and their noses and their necks for you, because they believe. 'Cause you make them believe. That's a quarterback.
--- Any given sunday
Cassel can lead us.
There are 4 good NT prospects and this is where they project.
Dan Williams NT Tennessee 6’3 – 327 lbs. Mid First (12-18)
Rates like B.J. Raji he is “the best NT prospect” but really he is this high because he is the NT that is best at penetrating the pocket. He is a penetrating DT with a NT body not sure if i like him but i feel he is the pick at 5.
Terrence Cody NT Alabama 6’5 – 360 lbs Late First to Early Second (18-36)
The best run stuffer in this draft, Cody dominates the middle against 2 defenders. He isn’t moved from his spot and almost always commands a double team if not triple team. Cody needs to lose 15 lbs or so down to 355 and then he will be truly great at NT.
Cam Thomas NT North Carolina 6-3 – 330 lbs Early Second to late second (36-64)
Cam is my favorite NT prospect. He showed at the Senior Bowl he is able to stand up the top Centers and Guards during practice and he demands a double team at his position. He holds his spot well and isn’t easily moved. I think he develops well into a very good NT.
Torrell Troup NT UCF 6’3 – 314 lbs Late second to Early third. (50-73)
Troup needs to put on about 15 lbs to be a dominant NT but if he can bulk up while also keeping his agility and being able to command a double team he could become a very good NT. Really the last NT prospect in this draft and he will be gone by the end of the second imo.
The first 3 picks of the draft will be defense. Pioli loves him some defense.
if NT is so i,portant, then why all the posts and comments about grabbing Berry and him being such a "game changer" and "impact player" at Safety?
just wonderin’
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whilock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
It is important. It's vital.
I can even see the Chiefs drafting two this year. Take Cody, Thomas or Troup in round 2 and then go for someone like linval Joseph in round 4 or 5. We need a pair of these fat bodies for depth and FA NT prospects are non-existent at this point.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
I don't think one will be enough
Edwards is a fail at NT
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
but, I am not sure that TWO rookies is a good idea
there might be a mid-level FA prospect available…
Gabe Watson, RFA from AZ…6’4" 329
Jimmy Kennedy, UFA from Minn…6’5" 320
one of these guys along with one of the top 4 NTs in the draft should do the trick
* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* keep Albert at LT, upgrade the positions that NEED upgrading.C, RG, NT, S, LB
I hope so
but the way FA played out last year for us (not being an ideal destination for most FA’s) and the increased competition for the services of solid NT’s leaves me with doubt. Also, take last years draft into consideration when Pioli saw DE as a weakness and he drafted two for adequate depth. Problem solved. Nobody sees it as an issue any more. I’m just saying that if we don’t strike NT gold early in FA, I can see it happening.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Just one more example
The 1996 Packers won the Super Bowl with a backup left tackle, after Ken Reuttgers retired mid-season.
-
The glass is more than half-full.
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