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Market For Tackles In 2010 NFL Draft May Get Tighter

According to the Washington Post's Redskins Insider, the Redskins' current right tackle Chris Samuels may be hanging up his cleats this offseason due to neck and spinal issues, meaning that the market for quality offensive tackles in the top five picks may have picked up.

Several people familiar with Samuels's thinking, however, say they still expect him to retire because of the injury he suffered early in the Oct. 11 loss at Carolina. Samuels, who also has stenosis (or a narrowing) of the spinal column, has consulted with many specialists, several of whom warned him about the possibility of no longer being able to walk if he attempted to prolong his career, league sources said.

In terms of their draft preparations, the Redskins are expected to proceed as if Samuels will retire. He was the best lineman on one of the league's worst units last season, and it would appear that Allen and Coach Mike Shanahan must overhaul the ineffective group regardless of whether Samuels plays next season.

Star-divide

The Redskins, based on their record, currently have the number four pick in the 2010 NFL draft, one spot ahead of the Kansas City Chiefs.  The Chiefs, whose offensive line woes have been a defining part of their struggles for the last few years, will likely also be interested in an offensive tackle, possibly Oklahoma State's Russell Okung, to shore up what was a terrible offensive line in 2009.  In years past this was less of a concern, since Redskins owner Daniel Snyder could usually be counted on to go after the highest-profile player in the draft or free agency, regardless of whether that player fit with the other pieces in place, which would have indicated the drafting of a quarterback after Jason Campbell was widely considered to have flopped last year. 

For the 2010 season, however, Snyder has hired an actual general manager, Bruce Allen, to run his team.  Allen, formerly of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, has put a fairly high emphasis on drafting offensive linemen, selecting five of them in the third round or higher during his four years in Tampa Bay.  Allen also showed little interest in drafting quarterbacks with early selections (highest one drafted, Josh Johnson, 5th round of 2008) and considering that the top two QBs in the 2010 draft class (Sam Bradford, Jimmy Claussen) are considered by many to be gambles for a pick that high, Washington may opt to shore up their wretched line situation and keep Campbell for one more season or see what they've already got in 2008 draft pick Colt Brennan.

In short, it's looking like the Redskins (or the Detroit Lions) will take Russell Okung off the board before the Chiefs get a shot at him, meaning Tennessee safety Eric Berry could very possibly be the the Chiefs' top pick of 2010.  Which isn't a bad consolation prize.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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This draft is really getting interesting

I know FA hasn’t even started yet, but I could see the Redskins trying to sign every O-line FA on the market. I think Shanahan will try to get the QB of the future in WAS and they will use that pick on one. Either way all this talk of trading out of the #5 pick for us is something i really dont want to do. We will get a very good player at 5 and we will have to pay them. Hopefully we can turn this ship around so we arent picking in the 1-10’s anymore.

Regardless of who the Chiefs pick at #5 overall, Whitlock will call it the worst pick in the history of the Chiefs. Heres to hoping that #5 pick runs Whitlock out of town.....

by jrcnc on Feb 22, 2010 10:29 AM CST reply actions  

In reference to your first sentence...

I’m pretty sure he was their Left Tackle…but that means even more

Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...

by woodman212 on Feb 22, 2010 10:42 AM CST reply actions  

You're Correct

I thought he was at first too, but the Insider said he was their right tackle and I took them at their word. Oopsy…turns out the WaPo gets it wrong on occasion. :)

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by UCrawford on Feb 22, 2010 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

10-4

Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...

by woodman212 on Feb 22, 2010 11:38 PM CST up reply actions  

So

Redskins pick Okung. Or the best LT on their board.

I don’t see us picking at 5 with the depth of draftable talent. Too many team will have to reach for that QB like Clausen or Bradford because next years QB class will not be as deep.

"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden

by Matt_Grbac on Feb 22, 2010 10:43 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

It's gonna be a wild ride for sure.

This will be a fun draft to see. i don’t like speculating too much because honestly, last year indicated to me that we really have no clue what Pioli is going to do but, I have a feeling we will have an incredible offseason. I believe we will trade out of the 5th spot. I don’t know what the circumstances will be but, I think we will have 3 2nd round picks by the time it’s all said and done.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Feb 22, 2010 10:51 AM CST reply actions  

1st round and 3 2nd rounders

Equals potentially 4 new starters.

"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden

by Matt_Grbac on Feb 22, 2010 10:53 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

i could live with that

3 2nd rounders is awesome. And your right Matt, 4 new starters and we all know we need that. Those 4 new starters would gel together and over the next 5-6 years are going to be mainstays in KC.

Regardless of who the Chiefs pick at #5 overall, Whitlock will call it the worst pick in the history of the Chiefs. Heres to hoping that #5 pick runs Whitlock out of town.....

by jrcnc on Feb 22, 2010 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

4 new starters and a couple of good free agents...

could be enough to get us started down the right track. That with our new coordinators and we really could take the West next year…Obviously, we have to over the san Diego hump.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Feb 22, 2010 10:58 AM CST reply actions  

SD is soon to be dead again

They have what 5 or 6 URFA’s? They are going to be able to sign them all, and I just feel that we are going to be back on top sooner than later. Watching SD last year yeah they are good, but that team is going to crumble when they start losing guys.

Regardless of who the Chiefs pick at #5 overall, Whitlock will call it the worst pick in the history of the Chiefs. Heres to hoping that #5 pick runs Whitlock out of town.....

by jrcnc on Feb 22, 2010 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

*they are NOT going to be able to resign them all

Regardless of who the Chiefs pick at #5 overall, Whitlock will call it the worst pick in the history of the Chiefs. Heres to hoping that #5 pick runs Whitlock out of town.....

by jrcnc on Feb 22, 2010 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

I really hope you are right.

They will be the #1 obstacle in our way in the future as far as getting into the playoffs goes…especially as long as Rivers is there. As much as I hate him, I have to give him his props. He really is a very good QB.

I agree though. I think they just blew the best opportunity they have ever had and I think it’s downhill from here for the Chargers. Nowhere to go but up for our Chiefs.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Feb 22, 2010 11:04 AM CST reply actions  

I think within 3 years SD will be an afterthought

I could see them doing okay next year but i really think they are going to start to slide downhill after next year. Losing alot of key players, and having a horrible rotten fanbase that cant even support them when they are winning games by 100 points will just continue their implosion.

Regardless of who the Chiefs pick at #5 overall, Whitlock will call it the worst pick in the history of the Chiefs. Heres to hoping that #5 pick runs Whitlock out of town.....

by jrcnc on Feb 22, 2010 11:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for the insight UC :)

Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!

I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.

by Lanier63 on Feb 22, 2010 12:11 PM CST reply actions  

I think its stupid...

to draft an offensive tackle top 5 if isn’t comparable to Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden. Look at the last 5 SB champs LT:

1. New Orleans – J Bushrod (4th round)
2. Pittsburgh – M Starks (3rd round)
3. NYG – D Deil (5th round)
4. Colts – Tarik Glenn (1st round, pick 19)
5. Patriots – Matt Light (2nd round)

Doesn’t look like you even need a top 15 pick at LT. You have go back to Baltimore and St. Louis to find a top 5 LT in the two guys I stated above.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 22, 2010 12:45 PM CST reply actions  

I like to see those stats!

Interesting. It changes my mind about drafting LT rd 1 but man it makes me nervousr drafting a LT project hoping he pans out.

Mr J
KC Chiefs Fan

by Mr J on Feb 22, 2010 1:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Yup

Especially considering that Max Starks sucks and Bushrod is actually a backup to Jamaal Brown (who went on IR during the season).

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 22, 2010 1:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Their...

respected teams still won the superbowl. And J Brown didn’t play at all this year.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 22, 2010 1:17 PM CST up reply actions  

You're Correct

Thought he got hurt mid-season but he got hurt before the first game.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 22, 2010 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

No Props To Starks, Though

I don’t care if his team won a Super Bowl, he’s been a constant weak link on a bad o-line.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 22, 2010 1:24 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree...

he sucks. But, doesn’t that dispell the myth that you need a top tier LT to win a SB? Everyone says you need a franchise QB (duh), franchise LT, pass rusher, and a shut down corner. Well, I would venture to say that you don’t need a franchise LT. But, that is just my opinion. It probably greatly depends on who your signal caller is. Ours might need one.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 22, 2010 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Having A Top-Notch Defense Makes Up For A Problematic Offense

The Chiefs don’t have that much leeway with their o-line. Plus, there’s the obvious consequence of neglecting your line that results in your QB’s career getting shortened…I suspect that Roethlisberger’s going to have a fairly short career if the Steelers don’t get someone better than Starks to protect his blind side. I’d hate to see the same thing happen to Cassel.

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by UCrawford on Feb 22, 2010 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, but...

wouldn’t at least admit that maybe Branden Albert could be that guy. I mean he is athletic enough. I guess the question with him this year was his comfort level playing at a new weight and his technical skills with the new scheme change. It seemed like he got the hang of both toward the end of the season.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 22, 2010 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I Think Albert Could Be A Really Good LT

(Emphasis on “could be”) But I also think that he could be a very good right tackle or left guard. And if drafting Okung means having really good bookend tackles, I think you have to say that’s a pretty smart move if you’ve got quite a bit of money and faith invested in your QB.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 22, 2010 2:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Precisely

Why people would pass up a chance to upgrade two positions with one pick is beyond me.

by Pantherhare on Feb 22, 2010 6:12 PM CST up reply actions  

because there's no guarantee that it does "upgrade 2 positions"

You could have the same effect with a lower cost by keeping Albert in place, and drafting a good Center

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 22, 2010 6:15 PM CST up reply actions  

+1

Not sure why people think it is a guaranteed upgrade

by badassz1987 on Feb 22, 2010 11:26 PM CST up reply actions  

And What Top Center Prospect Is Likely To Be There When We Pick In The Second Round?

There are certainly none who are worth a top five pick.

I don’t understand this constant “he’d be too expensive” non-sequitur. Anyone we draft with pick 5 is going to have to be paid a large contract. Left tackle tends to be the position that gives the best value that high.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 7:19 AM CST up reply actions  

The Top Two Center Prospects Could Easily Be Gone By Our First 2nd Round Pick

And after that, the talent level at center drops off a lot.

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by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 7:22 AM CST up reply actions  

its not that a top 5 pick is too expensive

we are paying one, regardless

but a center in the 2nd or 3rd is way cheaper than a LT in the 1st

and I would bet money that Walton is there at 2b or later

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 8:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Assuming That A Center Is Available

Which is a pretty big assumption to make. The best centers usually go by the end of the first round, even if they’re projected as 2nd round picks. Teams will reach for a great center prospect.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 9:36 AM CST up reply actions  

great point, IBR

Not to mention that the Pats drafter ANOTHER LT in the 2nd or 3rd (vollmer) and Matt Light might very well be a Chief in 2010

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 22, 2010 1:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

I’m all for as many LT’s being taken ahead of us as pssible, so a player we can actually use (Berry, McClain) drops down, since LT would be an insanely dumb pick for the Chiefs, when we just drafted a franchise LT 2 years ago, who has shown the ability Albert has.

by dablueguy on Feb 22, 2010 1:19 PM CST reply actions  

The ability to give up 9 sacks?

Insanely dumb to upgrade your O-line in two spots with one pick? Does anyone remember when the Chiefs had Roaf and Waters on the left side? Why wouldn’t you want a return to that?

by Pantherhare on Feb 22, 2010 6:16 PM CST up reply actions  

How many...

playoff games did we win with Roaf (hall of famer), Waters (in his prime), Weigman (solid player), Shields (hall of famer), and Tait (pro-bowl RT)? If we invest all of our fire power into the offensive line it means we are neglecting other areas. The offensive line, in my humble opinion, is a unit that can be built without expensive free agents or multiple 1st rounders. Our defense was god awful last year, we need an upgrade. Albert has proven enough for us to at least give a 3rd year to start again. Everyone wants to get a LT to fill our LG and C spots by moving Albert and Waters. But, Waters would be a one year stop-gap and I haven’t seen anything to suggest that Okung is this elite prospect people are making him out to be. Same goes for Anthony Davis who just all of a sudden came on strong during is Senior year. So, in my opinion, we would stay at par with the LT position and greatly upgrade the LG position. So we used a top 5 pick to have an upgrade at LG and a stop-gap solution for C? No thanks. I guarantee you that Pioli will not draft an offensive tackle. I can’t see him doing it even if the best one is on the board at 5.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 22, 2010 8:59 PM CST up reply actions  

The offensive line ranked 30th in the league last year....

Addressing the O line should be a priority….We didn’t win any playoff games with that O line, somehow….but that doesn’t mean you can’t win playoff games with a great offensive line….obviously. And we are far from a having a great offensive line….improvement will be made through the draft, thats guaranteed.

Don't Fuccop Succop

by chicks_love_chiefs on Feb 22, 2010 9:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, but my point is that...

I’m not saying we shouldn’t upgrade the offensive line. I’m just saying we shouldn’t use the 5th overall pick in the draft to do it. Like I said, I see our solution w/ the offensive line with draft picks. Just mabye a 2nd (Pouncey), 4th (M Johnson, Alabama), and 5th (Beadles, Utah). It can be done:

LT – Albert, Beadles
LG – W Smith, Alleman
C – Pouncey, W Smith, Alleman
RG – M Johnson, Nudukwe
RT – O’Callaghan, C Brown

Not too shabby if you ask me.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 22, 2010 11:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree...but with some slightly different names

Albert, Waters, Walton, Ndukwe, O’Callaghan

or something like that

I’d draft Charles Brown if he’s there in the 2nd… if not, I’d target Pouncey or Walton, and look for John Jerry, Mike Johnson or Sergio Render later on.

I might consider Ciron Black or Sam Young or Jason Fox after the 2nd as well

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 8:53 AM CST up reply actions  

I Think These Lineups Are Attractive To You Only Because You're Attached To These Particular Players Because They're On The Roster

LT – Okung
LG – Waters
C – Pouncey
RG – Smith/Niswanger
RT – Albert

There…I can fill a lineup too based off of names I like. And I like the potential of this line a lot better than yours, mainly since O’Callaghan goes from being a mediocre starter to a high quality backup.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 9:41 AM CST up reply actions  

I hear what you're saying

but, I respectfully disagree

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

stag, it's ok .. we love ya it's ok to disagree and be wrong ... honest

I’m with UC and Bewsaf all the way … Oline, Oline, Oline … Berry? sure, great talent and we could use a S like him (if he falls that far) but even at that … damn I want Okung … and Ducasse or Iupati in 2nd, along with … sure, Cody at NT in 2nd works …

but people, you NEED a dominant OLine because everyone else’s DLine is better than the OLine we have right now, that’s a proven fact

you want your billion dollar baby (QB) upright nost of the time, yes? then protect him, and you can’t do that with 3rd and 4th round so-called “talent” (if those guys taken then were all that good, they’d have been gone a whole lot earlier, guaranteed)

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whilock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Feb 23, 2010 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I like it

does that lineup come with a can of kick ass?

Bewsaf

by Bewsaf on Feb 23, 2010 7:12 PM CST up reply actions  

How Many Games Did We Win With The Roaf Line Compared To The Albert Line

I think you’ll find that we tended to do just a little better with Roaf.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 7:20 AM CST up reply actions  

First of all...

Okung is no Willie Roaf. 2nd of all the “Roaf line” had another hall of famer, and two legit pro bowlers. “Albert’s line” has the worst center in the NFL (sorry Rudy), an aging vet (Waters), and multiple shakeups on the right side. Last, the whole point of my argument is that I want rare defensive talent with that 5th pick. Why? Because its rare and it is my belief that offensive line talent isn’t as much.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 23, 2010 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Willie Roaf Was No Willie Roaf Until He Was Willie Roaf

Roaf was just the best player from perennial doormat Louisiana Tech (aka Nowhere U) until he ended up being a great NFL tackle. You (and I) have no idea what Okung’s ceiling is for his ability…all I know is that he’s rated as being the top tackle in the draft, that he dominated competition in college, that most of the scouts appear to believe he’s perfectly capable of being a dominant offensive tackle in the NFL, and that linemen generally end up being the best value picks in the top five draft selections.

Last, the whole point of my argument is that I want rare defensive talent with that 5th pick.

What’s so rare about Berry? He’s a great player and I won’t be unhappy if the Chiefs draft him, but he’s a safety and quality safety prospects are usually available all through the first round (which is why they’re never drafted in the top five).

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

And None Of The Other Defensive Talent Likely To Be Available At Pick Five Is Rare Either

Most of them, in fact, would be reaches at pick five. Except for Haden and Berry, most of the defensive talent is projected outside of the top 10.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 12:26 PM CST up reply actions  

except for Okung most LT prospects would be reaches

And Shanny will draft Okung to man his LT spot. Washington’s biggest need is LT and the BPA is also LT perfect fit.

The first 3 picks of the draft will be defense. Pioli loves him some defense.

by ChiefsfanJon on Feb 23, 2010 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

And If Washington Drafts Okung

I’m fine with grabbing Berry. I would agree at that point he’s BPA if we can’t trade down.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

What so rare about Berry?

There are only two guys in the NFL that can do what Berry is projected as. Polomalu, Reed, and Bob Sanders when healthy. These players have the ability to completely to change the dynamic of an entire defense because of the muliple assests they bring each play. They have the ability to cover a large area of the field, help in run support (almost as an extra linebacker), make game changing turnovers, and from time to time get the QB on his ass. So yeah my vote is for Berry or Hayden.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 23, 2010 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

And Yet

Only two of those guys have won Super Bowls, none of them were drafted higher than 16th, and plenty of teams have won Super Bowls without a dominant safety. Sanders, in fact, was drafted #44. So I’d say that they’re not really that rare or hard to find outside of the top five picks. A top left tackle, on the other hand, is a lot harder to find outside of the top ten picks, it’s tough to keep your QB healthy and productive without a good o-line and it’s very tough to win a Super Bowl without a good QB.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

agreed 100% UC ...

then too …

it’s very tough to win a Super Bowl without a good QB

it’s hard even if you DO have one, and I’m not so sure we do … which means even MORE falls on the OLine (that we don’t have enough parts for yet)

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whilock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Feb 23, 2010 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

if Berry is such a rare talent ...

then why mention Hayden?

and what about Suh and McClain? those guys are getting rave reviews as well … this draft is DEEP on the Defensive side, and I won’t argue that we DON’T need help there, but how many OLinemen are worth what Okung is projected to do? right … not many at all, that’s even more rare, IMNSHO … we have a chance here to build a DOMINANT Oline that will last for the next decade … that’s an opportunity I hope we don’t pass up

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whilock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Feb 23, 2010 2:31 PM CST up reply actions  

I mentioned...

Hayden because Berry might not there. And shut down corners are extremely rare as well. I would argue that elite, elite mind you, defensive backs are the rarest talent in the NFL. Call me crazy, its just what I believe. I would love to trade up for Suh or McCoy. And don’t start saying I’m a hypocrite. Even though DBS are the rarest elite that doesn’t mean there is a higher positional value for QBs and pass rushers. LT is 4th on my list and considering we have Albert, I don’t think its a priority.

Draft prediction top 10 - 1. Bradford 2. Suh (Chiefs trade up) 3. McCoy 4. Claussen (trade Campbell to Carolina, trade for J Brown) 5. Okung (Detroit) 6. Spiller 7. Hayden 8. Campbell 9. Davis (Bills trade for Vick) 10. Morgan (Jags draft Tebow in 2nd round) 2/23/09

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 23, 2010 5:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I would not consider trading up at all in the first

trading back to the bottom of the first from pick 2a, in order to get iupati or Charles Brown… yeah, I’d consider that for sure.

Stay put at 5 or trade down…take the best defender available

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* keep Albert at LT, upgrade the positions that NEED upgrading.C, RG, NT, S, LB

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 5:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Teams don't let good corners go to FA

see Asoumaga and many others.
They are always tradable value.
I see the point and I agree in that Berry and Haden are worth the 5th pick. To the Chiefs in 2010 draft.
We have Cassel for at least the mid-term
We have Albert
We have Hali who I think is just going to explode with a little help from his friends in 2010 :)

"For what we are about to see next, we must enter quietly into the realm of genius." Scott "Young Frankenstein" Pioli

by Steve_Chiefs on Feb 23, 2010 8:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Can we at least give Branden Albert one more season?

I mean, Okung should just be called the “least worst” of the offensive tackles this year. You don’t draft a guy top 5 just because he’s the “best one this year”, if it’s a weak class at the position.

There will be a draft next, hopefully. And the year after that.

And unless Albert just completly craps in his hat, I think he will do a good job going forward.

by alakan81 on Feb 22, 2010 2:03 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

I agree.

This is Alberts 3rd year in the league and he now has a full year in this system. Before we dump him, lets try to upgrade the interior of the line starting in the second round. First round pick needs to be a playmaker like Berry, Haden, Bryant, or McClain.

Don't blame me, I voted for content of character.

by paratrooper on Feb 22, 2010 2:10 PM CST up reply actions  

No one is saying dump Albert

Move him to the position where he excelled at in college, which is left guard. He’d be a HUGE upgrade over Waters at this point.

by Pantherhare on Feb 22, 2010 6:18 PM CST up reply actions  

How do you know that for sure

he hasnt played LG in the NFL so how do you know he will be an upgrade. Just cuz he played good there in college doesnt mean he would play good there in the NFL

by badassz1987 on Feb 22, 2010 11:28 PM CST up reply actions  

I Know For Certain He'll Have A Longer Career Than Waters, Since He's 10 Years Younger
How do you know that for sure

You probably want to avoid going down that route with your debate, since your own arguments are no less susceptible to that question.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 7:23 AM CST up reply actions  

you said he'll play LONGER... not BETTER

there is no certainty that Okung or Davis would be BETTER than Albert,
OR that Albert would be BETTER than Waters
or that Waters would be BETTER than Niswanger or a Rookie Center

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 8:55 AM CST up reply actions  

There Is Also No Certainty That Albert Will Be Better Than Okung

Sorry, but Albert’s not a known quantity. He had a solid rookie season and an up-and-down second year. He’s not dominant. Okung might be. You’re arguing a matter of personal opinion (as am I) but your argument is no more proveable than mine.

I do believe, however, that Okung will be a good left tackle at least and possibly a great one. I believe Albert could be a good-to-great left tackle as well, but that he could also be a good-to-great right tackle (which we also need) so by upgrading left tackle we also upgrade right tackle (which I’d prefer). Or if he got moved to left guard and Waters got moved to right guard we’d upgrade the interior line. Whether or not Okung is better than Albert isn’t necessarily the question…whether or not Okung will upgrade our overall line is. And I think it’s pretty obvious that adding him would.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 9:26 AM CST up reply actions  

if you think RT or the interior line needs upgrading...

why not upgrade RT or the interior line directly, instead of replacing the best young player on the OL?

My point is you can get a defensive star… AND upgrade the weakness in the line… by taking Berry/McClain/Haden THEN addressing RT or C or G starting in the 2nd.

I believe it would improve this team MORE than trying to replace Albert at this point

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

stag ... maybe, maybe not
it would improve this team MORE than trying to replace Albert

that’s ONLY if you buy the line that the defense is more important than the offense … and/or that the defense has bigger or more holes to fill, and/or that you have no problem with a QB who’s on his back half the time and throwing too many interceptions because he’s been hurried too much and then he gets “gun shy” of holding the ball OR has been ragged out so often by his none-too0mellow coach NOT to throw it away or whatever

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whilock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Feb 23, 2010 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

actually

I don’t believe that Defense is “more important than offense”

I DO want to improve the OL, AND the defense… I just think drafting specific players for specific positions is smarter than drafting one player to take the place of another good player, and hoping that 3 players can change positions effectively and all be better.

I would certainly spend 2-3 draft picks on the OL… but I would use the first round pick on a rare talent, a defensive playmaker….

just my humble opinion…

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* keep Albert at LT, upgrade the positions that NEED upgrading.C, RG, NT, S, LB

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 3:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed

This isn’t freaking Madden. You can’t just change an o-line position and only has his “overall rating” drop 2 pts. :P

by alakan81 on Feb 24, 2010 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

wow, stag, you're RIGHT! absolutely correct all the way ...

yup, no question,l you got it right, stag, when you said …

there is no certainty that Okung or Davis would be BETTER than Albert,
OR that Albert would be BETTER than Waters
or that Waters would be BETTER than Niswanger or a Rookie Center

just remember, there’s NO guarantee that McClain would be BETTER than DJ or Vrabel or Brown, and there’s NO guarantee that Suh would be BETTER than (whoever) or that Berry would be BETTER than (who cares, right?) …

there ARE no guarantees … not on ANY player, ever

remember, that’s your own argument

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whilock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Feb 23, 2010 2:39 PM CST up reply actions  

take a deep breath

of course I know that… but I think people are taking a bigger leap of faith saying “one pick ‘upgrades’ 3 positions”…. you’re betting that 3 players are better than the three incumbents… which, to me, is a bigger risk than choosing ONE player at ONE position that appears to be a clear upgrade.

I’m concerned about the effects of shifting the entire line around… I don’t think the results would be as dreamy as people think

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* keep Albert at LT, upgrade the positions that NEED upgrading.C, RG, NT, S, LB

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 3:56 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm all for drafting a LT

IMO a good LT will upgrade your entire line, especially when you have versatile linemen like Waters, Wade, and Albert, and as far as the #5 pick goes I don’t see a safety or linebacker returning as much value as a LT..

I’m not saying draft a LT and move Albert to LG, I’m saying draft a LT and use the talent somewhere.. Tackles like Michael Oher, who have played LT their entire football careers are good evidence that a LT can switch to RT.. Also Tackles tend to be dominant when kicked inside to the guard positions..

KRRRAKATAWAA

by 808NaNz808 on Feb 22, 2010 2:21 PM CST reply actions  

Michael Oher was drafted in the 20’s, a proper spot to look to draft a RT, G, or C. It’s nuts to draft one of those positions at #5, which would be what we are basically doing. Draft a player of need at #5(if we can’t trade down), and then concentrate on fixing the OL INTERIOR, which is what needs fixing, starting with round 2. We can get the best or 2nd best G and C, rather than start moving people around, experimenting, putting people in unfamiliar positions.

by dablueguy on Feb 22, 2010 2:36 PM CST reply actions  

I'll bet you Okung plays a better LG than any other prospect in the draft

and we drafted Albert at 15.. Not too far out of reach of 20.. So getting a LT there was a steal then huh??

KRRRAKATAWAA

by 808NaNz808 on Feb 22, 2010 2:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, Albert was a very good pick at #15. Don’t forget, we were at #17, and traded up to get him, when it appeared there was going to be a run on LT’s. Albert was mocked to go as high as #5 to us, and i think would have, if Dorsey had been taken, or #7 to NE.
AFAIK, Okung hasn’t played LG, and doesn’t seem to have the body type to be a good NFL G. But drafting him at #5, and asking him to play G, or RT, is as nuts as moving Albert to one of those positions. IOW drafting a LT at #5 is nuts for us to consider.

by dablueguy on Feb 22, 2010 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

agreed...

take your defender at #5 or trade down
start looking at the 2a pick for an OT that could eventually start at LT or immediately start at RT… if you don’t see one… skip the OT, and draft the REAL need… a Center

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 22, 2010 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree

Im all for upgrading the OL but I would prefer it not to be in the 1st round

by banshee_01 on Feb 22, 2010 8:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Okung- 6'6" 314. Now lets go down a list of the best guards in the game

Logan Mankins- 6’4" 310
Alan Faneca- 6’5" 305
Kris Dielman- 6’4" 310
Steve Hutchinson- 6’5" 313
Leonard Davis 6’6" 318
Chris Snee- 6’4" 325
Jahri Evans- 6’4" 318

Tell me why an average of about 4 pounds spread over an average of two inches makes Okung not seem to have the body type to play guard..

As for this little scrap of genius

drafting him at #5, and asking him to play G, or RT, is as nuts as moving Albert to one of those positions.

except that he played both of those positions in college.. He actually started his entire freshman season at RT, and played some guard and RT in his sophmore campaign before ultimately being moved to LT before the end of the season..

Drafting a LT at 5 happens to be the best we’re going to get out of that pick… We won’t be getting an anchor for either side of the ball unless we go with a D lineman (Dan Williams), WR (Dez Bryant), or QB (Clausen), all of which seem highly unlikely.

Drafting a position like Safety or Linebacker and paying #5 money to that player is crazy.

KRRRAKATAWAA

by 808NaNz808 on Feb 22, 2010 6:04 PM CST up reply actions  

i disagre... a lot

tell me why, again, that KC should draft a RT or Guard with the #5 overall pick, when the BEST ones usually come off the board at the end of the 1st, beginning of the 2nd… AND KC happens to hold a high 2nd round pick/?

Seriously, unless the guy is a HUGE upgrade over Albert at LT… there is NO WAY the Chiefs should consider ANY OT at #5 overall. period.

I’m all for OL upgrades… STARTING IN THE 2nd ROUND!!!!

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 22, 2010 6:10 PM CST up reply actions  

I could swing the same argument

D line, OT, and QB are the only positions that belong in the top five.. Facing facts if we have to take a position way out of position if we’re at #5

You say guard and tackle aren’t worth the #5 pick because of the influx of talent starting in the second round.. I say the same applies to Ronaldo McClain and Eric Berry.

McClain and Berry upgrade a single position.. Okung upgrades three.. Seems your argument may be flawed

KRRRAKATAWAA

by 808NaNz808 on Feb 22, 2010 7:56 PM CST up reply actions  

well... I think the "upgrades 3" arugment is flawed, personally.

And, I don’t disagree that there are other talented Safeties and LBs in the draft… there aren’t any on the same level as McClain and Berry.

Safety and LB are often picked in the first round RTs and Gs are rarely ever picked in the first half of the first round, and the guy you’re arguing for isn’t even a standout at the position you want him to learn…

IF KC determines that there isn’t a player on the same level as Okung, then fine.. take him, and shake up the whole OL, and hope for the best…

I just dont’ see it… and I’d bet a small amount of money that it won’t happen.

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 22, 2010 8:03 PM CST up reply actions  

You forgot CB's and Pass rushing LB'ers

You know two very important positions that are top 5 worthy. Also i believe the NFL is changing to where you want a good ILB and a good Safety if you want a chance. I still don’t know why the Chiefs didn’t pick up Jonathan Vilma when he was available a few years back.

The first 3 picks of the draft will be defense. Pioli loves him some defense.

by ChiefsfanJon on Feb 23, 2010 5:27 AM CST up reply actions  

There is...

a lot more that goes into examining a position body type than height and weight. Okung is top heavy, like Joe Thomas. Guards have to have those tree trunk legs in order to move the big ass DTs during run blocking. Okung would be a waste at G.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 22, 2010 9:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Hopefully...

that will be M Pouncey the C out of Florida. He is really the only “sexy” interior lineman that might fall to the top of the 2nd. I think Iupati is gone in the 1st, that guy is sky rocketing.

by I_Bleed_Red. on Feb 22, 2010 5:25 PM CST up reply actions  

yeah, he'd be a fine choice in the 2nd

and I think he’ll be there.

Walton would be a great pick, IMO… and he may be there in the 3rd or later.

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 22, 2010 6:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I know how we can upgrade three positions guys and it makes just as much since as LT

Draft Haden and move Carr to FS and move Page to SS nevermind the fact that Carr and Page haven’t played those positions in the NFL it will work and we will be so improved at THREE positions.

Btw this is how you LT folks actually sound when you suggest drafting Okung who won’t even fall to us at #5. So now the argument is do you draft the second best LT in a bad LT class at #5. Albert is fine at LT he will be great give him one more year. Everyone always says don’t judge a draft class for 3 years but people are ready to throw Albert under the bus because he lost 40 lbs and had to learn Zone Blocking. The last 6 games Albert was dominant and he can do that all year if you give Cassell a pocket to step into by drafting a Center. We also need Tackle depth and a possible eventual starter over O’Callaghan.

The first 3 picks of the draft will be defense. Pioli loves him some defense.

by ChiefsfanJon on Feb 23, 2010 5:34 AM CST reply actions  

According to this chart....

Albert certainly did improve over the last 6 weeks….but calling him dominate in downright criminal…link.

Don't Fuccop Succop

by chicks_love_chiefs on Feb 23, 2010 8:31 AM CST reply actions  

I don't think anyone is saying he was "dominant" in 2009

I’m saying that Albert is solid enough that a draft pick should be spent elsewhere… NOT on “fixing” what’s NOT broken

Albert, Cassel, Charles, Flowers, Hali, Dorsey, Jackson, Waters, Succop, Colquitt, Bowe…
These are the guys that we shouldn’t be trying to “upgrade”…. we should be building AROUND them!

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 8:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Why?

Why should a pick be spent elsewhere? Who else merits a pick that high that would add as much to the team? Most of the best defensive linemen are projected to be reaches at pick five and drafting for need instead of talent is a constant error of bad teams. Eric Berry is the best player who fits a need, and I’m fine with grabbing him, but he’s about the only one who would make as much sense. Joe Haden would be a great player at that pick, but he’s not really a need. Dez Bryant would probably offer the least value to upgrade the offense while presenting the highest risk (as WRs do), plus good WR prospects can usually be found in the 2nd to 3rd rounds of any draft.

These are the guys that we shouldn’t be trying to "upgrade"…. we should be building AROUND them!

You know, this straw man argument is getting really tired. NO ONE has said that we should dump Albert. Even if Okung was drafted, you can still build around Albert at right tackle or left guard, or right guard, or wherever he gets moved. In fact, because of his relatively low salary, he’s probably the best player to move.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 9:34 AM CST up reply actions  

my question is WHY MOVE ALBERT???

improve the line to the right of him…

Draft a Center, RG or RT… in the 2nd or later.

Let Albert continue to develop as a LT

that way you can “fix” the OL… AND get one of the top defensive playmakers in the draft

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

but, I digress

we’ll have to agree to disagree, UC

there is more than one way to upgrade the OL.

* KC now has the best coaching staff in the league
* Pioli will make at least one trade in the offseason, and 2 trades during the draft
* I'd prefer "lightning and lightning" as opposed to "lightning and thunder" when it comes to RBs
* 9-7 is a real possibility in 2010 IF the Chiefs get 4 new starters
* keep Albert at LT, upgrade the positions that NEED upgrading.C, RG, NT, S, LB

by stagdsp on Feb 23, 2010 10:00 AM CST up reply actions  

We Do Agree On That

I’m just saying that it’s an ultimately irresolvable conflict because it’s based entirely on opinion. I believe that offensive are the best selections for a top five pick because they offer the best value. You want to try and grab the top player at another position because you think we’re set at LT. I can understand and respect why you hold your position, I just disagree with it.

That and the people who say “we can’t dump Albert” just annoy me because frankly nobody’s seriously claiming that Albert should be dumped, only moved. I’d say the overwhelming majority of people who want Okung still see Albert as a vital building block on the o-line, wherever he were to end up.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

by UCrawford on Feb 23, 2010 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

precisely!

"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whilock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!

by upamtn on Feb 23, 2010 2:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, as one of the people who suggested we stick with Albert

Let me clarify for you:

I don’t think anyone is suggesting we jettison Albert from the team via giant-sized slingshot.

I merely feel that, for one, Albert has shown potential is his current role and should be allowed at least another off-season and season in that role to show consistent improvement, before we try to replace him. Secondly, I believe the argument that we can “improve 3 positions with one draft pick” is fallacious, because it assumes that moving offensive lineman to different positions will result in either zero dropoff in performance or an improvement.

I think projecting one-to-one replacements as being an upgrade is difficult enough, requiring major guesswork, and yes, based for the most part of opinion. Supposing that one pick would improve three positions, the likelihood of being correct is slim and none.

by alakan81 on Feb 24, 2010 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

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