Whether or not you like Haley, this is some pretty good stuff!
by krayfish on Jan 31, 2010 12:18 PM CST
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PrintWhat I was really hoping to accomplish in this post, was to dissect some of the negative aspects of Haley being our HC. To be able to clearly identify some points of contention regarding Coach Haley, and explore the potential negative impacts, if any, they could have on our team.
What I found was really cool. And I promise, by the end of this post, you will more than likely learn some pretty cool stuff about Haley you didn't already know.
I have read quite a few negative things about Haley on AP. I have also written many. But it was the following objection to Haley being our HC, that prompted all this research and subsequently, this post. I really hope you enjoy the information.
The Arizona Cardinals had Kurt Warner, Anquan Boldin and Larry Fitzgerald. They didn't need Todd Haley to be great. That kind of talent would make any offensive coordinator look good. In fact, Ken Whisenhunt called all the plays for the first season Haley was there.
That argument is very solid. You do not have to agree with it, but it is a solid argument, none the less. But I think you could make a solid argument the other way too. Consider this;
Before we can even make a fair case for or against that argument, we would first need to establish that something significantly praiseworthy even happened in Az. that could be attributed to Haley. Let's start with our usual "the year before" confabulation.
The year before Haley arrived in Az. (2006) the Cardinals were the 19th ranked scoring offense. They were also coached by Dennis Green (hey, isn't he going to be our new DC?). By the end of 2007 the Cardinals were the 7th ranked scoring offense. Of course, I should mention, they were now being coached by Ken Whisenhunt. Or were they? Here are some facts you may or may not know. First and foremost. Ken Whisenhunt did not call ALL the plays. He began by allowing Haley limited play calling opportunities. Much like Derrick Johnson's opportunities were limited this past season. And much like Derrick Johnson, he made the most of each and every chance he was given.
So much so, that Ken Whisenhunt gave almost exclusive control of the offense to Haley sooner than he had expected to before the season started. Why is that important? Because first & foremost, we were able to establish that Haley was running that offense during the second half of the 2007 season. So next, in the interest of fair play, we would need to see how the offense fared in the first half of the season, when compared to the second half. And I did just that.
Through 9 weeks of play under, with Whisenhunt running the offense, the Cardinals amassed 2,531 total yards, scored 157 points and won 3 games.
Enter Todd Haley, and thru the final 7 games, the Cardinals now amass a whopping 2,951 total yards, scored 247 points and won 5 of their last 7 regular season games. Haley did a much better job and ended with much better stats than Ken Whisenhunt, and he did it with one less game.
Still not sold? How about this then? In 2008, with Haley in full control of the offense, from game one of the regular season, the Cardinals finished with the 3rd ranked scoring offense in the NFL. You already know the rest, so I won't bore you with a recap.
Here's few extra morsels about Mr. Haley I dug up, that I thought you might find pretty interesting.
He was offered the Miami Dolphins HC'ing job in 2008. He turned it down because he believed in his offense and did not yet feel he had completed the job he signed on for. Huh? Loyalty before royalty? I'm impressed.
And from January 13th of this year - "The Cardinals had a good thing going on the offensive staff when coordinator Todd Haley left to coach the Chiefs. I think Arizona is still sorting through the aftermath of that one. Haley and Warner were tight. Haley knew how to push players' buttons. He called the plays and the offense was in a rhythm. The offense is still finding its identity a little bit" - Mike Sando and Pat Yasinskas of ESPN.com.
Like him or not, the guy is a winner. He has EARNED his reputation. I have to believe that Haley will view the 2009 season as a personal challenge to himself to do a better job in 2010. There is nothing in his career history that would indicate otherwise.
I did not set out to make Haley look good through my research. He did that himself. Now, I'm more excited than ever to see what the Chiefs look like in 2010. GO CHIEFS!!
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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I think Haley will prove to be a great hire. His coaching philosophy is very sound.
My favorite thing Haley’s done so far was waiting until the first preseason game to go out onto the Arrowhead field.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Wasn't your last post about Haley?
This isn’t a boys club! Name dropper! Haha jk
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
by Matt_Grbac on Jan 31, 2010 1:05 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Better for him to suck up to the chicks than go down on the guys, yes?
Unless that is your preference Kray, in which case I support you fully.
Predictions:
1) Fans will feel just scads better from mid-to-end of the 2010 season.
2) During the 2021 season, Ryan Succop will become the Chiefs’ all-time leading scorer with 1469 points.
Haley should prove to be a good head coach.
I am even less concerned with his ability to succeed with the addition of Romeo and Charliette. With the addition of some talent, this team should be a force to be reckoned with.
Yeah...but we beat the donkeys like a rented mule.
Agreed
I’m anxious for the coming year. With a softer schedule and a year of the system under their belt, I think that it’ll be fun to watch.
Arizona also went from 3rd in scoring offense in 2008 to 11th in 2009
so I would say Haley had a little to do with their offense because they had pretty much the same weapons on offense this year as last year. They also went from 4th in yards/game in 2008 to 14th in 2009.
curious ... how did their schedule change from 2009 to 2009?
were they playing higher rated (esp defensively) teams in 2009? I think that’s something you need to consider … level of opposition from one year to the next
"I shall conquer untruth by truth" - Mahatma Gandhi
Whilock Rocks!
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
cardinals strength of schedule
2008- 21st
2009- 27th
2009 they actually had overall an easier schedule and their numbers were still down on offense
This time last year...
i was very undecided about Haley. I knew the H.O.F. HC’s were going to be ready to come back to coach this year, and (believe it or not) I thought Germ couldnt hurt us any worse so let him coach the last season. Who know’s i still could have been right. You cant say we couldnt have grabbed a B. Bellick (sp) or maybe Shanahan this year. But it is what it is, and i feel happy with our coach. I think he will be a Chief the rest of his life. You always remember the first time you drove your own car…
I still wonder about the same things. He's still a question mark as a HC. He's yet to prove he can handle this one last hurdle.
Either way you feel about the guys is not wrong. It’s just that the more I research about him, the more impressive he becomes. He’s a very, very smart guy.
Kray, Good post as usual.
It also reafirms my belief that we have the right guy in charge. I’ve been on board with Haley since day one, I liked the way he got everybody in shape including the veterans. and I didnt have a problem with how he did iit. also I liked the way he made everyone accountable, even the so called stars of the team. making it more about the team instead of individuals . yes he’s made some mistakes, but who hasen’t.. I really believe that there will be a different feel and look to this team in another year under Haley’s guidence. but alot can happen between now and this time next year.
Great post
And a great example of how a well researched, concise post can convey or affirm a point. You stated that you did not go in to this looking to prove something or fault someone else. You went on a fact finding mission, found truth, and shared it with us. For that I am grateful.
Krayfish
I am still waiting for your email to come.
rogersmattr@yahoo.com
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
just a general bit of advice
Avoid posting an e-mail address in searchable context. There are list generating searches that look through pages to find e-mail address just like this. if you remove the @ and enter “at” it may benefit you.
by jakethesnake27 on Jan 31, 2010 6:47 PM CST up reply actions
One thing I found out
about him a few months ago was that when he was with Dallas, his wife went to McDonalds to get a salad and when she got it home, there was a rat in it. They sued.
most of what you posted here is stuff i've been arguing to those who haven't bothered to look deeper than "he yells at people"
I’m glad you posted this. You and I have gone back a forth a time or two about this very subject and I’m glad that you can at least see he’s been very successful to this point and his past certainly would appear to be an indicator of future success. Well done, Kray. (I’ve been saying this way too much lately)
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
Good work
That was an interesting read. I agree the jury is still out on his HC’ing ability, but we are stuck with him for some time anyway so we may as well hope for the best.
You may be right, but how much of the improvement in 2007 came from Warner starting full time and how much came from Haley calling plays? Leinert started the first four games until he went on IR and Warner took over for good.
What really makes me wonder about where the credit goes is that Arizona really only won 4 of their last 7 games and one of those (Cincy) was from 2 Int’s returned for TD’s. Their other 3 wins were against some pretty bad teams.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
They didn’t make the playoffs in 2007, which is what I was adressing.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
how good was warner in new york before joining up with haley? also it was haley who pushed to bench leinhart and start warner...just sayin'
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
Warner was 7-5 as a starter in New York but was benched to play Manning, New York’s QBOTF. I’m sure it wasn’t just Haley pushing for Leinert’s benching, but when you take a QB that high in the draft you have to give him multiple opportunities.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Also, before Haley, Warner (Once Super Bowl MVP and 2-time NFL MVP) was the leader of some of the best offenses in the history of the game.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
he was 7-5 but clearly wasn't the same as he was in st louis.
also, were those offenses due to dick vermeil? he left st louis and implemented the same thing in kc while st louis steadily declined. which proves my point that it takes good players and good coaches. this “was it warner or was it haley?” question is stupid because the truth is it’s like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg? arizona picked warner up off the scrap heap where he couldn’t beat out matt leinhart until haley went to whisenhunt and made a case for trying warner out. the rest is history.
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
and he was actually 5-4 not 7-5 in new york
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
Warner had injury problems in the middle years of his career, including the first part of the ’07 season.
which proves my point that it takes good players and good coaches. this "was it warner or was it haley?" question is stupid because the truth is it’s like asking which came first, the chicken or the egg?
That is actually my point. There are so many variables ( e.g., injuries, new players, strength of schedule, performance of the defense, etc.) that the credit for the upswing in the offense and the wins can’t really be given to any one person, including Haley. So just because the numbers went up doesn’t mean it was from Haley’s playcalling.
And sorry, my math was a little off this morning on Warner’s NY record.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
i just get tired of people giving no credit to haley for any of his accomplishments
every coach who leads a top ranked offensive or defensive unit is going to have loads of talent on the roster but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have a hand in the greatness. that’s all i am trying to say. other than that, it seems like we pretty much agree
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
Yeah, trust me, I’ve defended Haley and Cassel until I was blue in the face. I don’t think he had no part in it, I’m just saying there are many more things that went on with that (and every) team. I’m in no way a Haley-hater, but I’m also not ready to anoint him the next great coach.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Sources
This isn’t meant to cast doubt on anything in the post, but when you’re citing things that admittedly aren’t well-known, posting links that verify the information would probably be handy.
For example, there’s a statement made about Arizona that’s clearly shown to be taken from ESPN, but the timeframe of Haley calling plays and the MIA coaching tidbit are just thrown out there with no mention of where the stories came from.
I believe in Haley for his play calling since JC is the running back...but....
what was haley thinking when he calls LJ to run to the middle most of the times. Even, he knew that LJ consistently bad in YPC. What is the reason behind that? That is still a mistery to me.
72 Chiefs,
Please take a look at my post, Zero Flood Slot Hat Seventy-Eight Shout Tosser that is currently sitting at the bottom of the rec list on Arrowhead prides home page. I believe that I made a compelling arguement that explains why Haley used LJ during the first half of last season.
Good Job Kray.
You are rec’d. This is what I have been talking about concerning Haley for some time, both here and elsewhere. It seems that so many Chiefs fans have been disappointed for so long that they are predisposed to be anti-anything that is new to the Chiefs. They will not simply ‘believe’ in any moves the team has made without proof of the positive. In fact, they not only don’t believe it, in some cases they project the worst and continually snipe at things because Ownership, management and coaches have been unable to simply hit the reset button and begin playing championship football. It just doesn’t work that way and time is the investment that must be made in order to reap rewards.
I understand that attitude, given our problems over the last several years, but by the same token, we have never seen this grand of a change in our midst. Chiefs fans should be encouraged by Haley’s presence for so many reasons, yet the focus has been and will continue to be “What have you done for me lately”. Here’s hoping that they can get a bit of that answer in the 2010 season.
BTW,
The Cardinals went from 4th in total yardage in 2008 (with Haley) to 14th in 2009 (without Haley)
Mostly the same players in 2009 as 2008, but a different OC. Hmmmm…………
My sentiments are likely to be summed up with one of these 2 quotes:
"Shut the f--- up."- Matt Cassel
"WHAT THE F---?!?!"- Todd Haley
by Red N Gold Beast on Feb 1, 2010 10:30 AM CST reply actions
Wasn’t talking about 2008. I’ll give him credit for the 2008 offense and even for part of the 2007 offense. I’m just saying there are many other variables. Upamtn alluded to SOS earlier, and I was just pointing out others, especially in ’07.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Great post Kray
Kind of funny when you go out to prove something and then find the reality is much different. You don’t go from golf pro to SB offensive coordinator unless you have something going for you. This guy is a whole lot more than a “yeller”.
OK...the Koolaid buzz is gone now. I'm forced to admit that the state of the team had deteriorated far beyond what I had realized. The good news is I get to start mixing up a fresh batch of koolaid for next year. Oh Yeah!
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