It's more than stats, sometimes it's common sense!
Good morning AP. As is usual on AP, we have the most amazing fanposts of any sports site anywhere. It shows doesn't it? So, let me take two seconds to throw something out there that I feel is important and then we'll get right back into the meat and potatoes of this post. I have been consumed by researching other sports site's since approximately, October 2009. Not for my reading pleasure but for comparison with our own beloved AP.
The end conclusion with regards to the fans, is still that somehow we really did assemble a far superior group of people here. But this site itself continues to impress me beyond belief. It's everything, from the layout forward. This site is absolutely nothing short of revolutionary. I dare anyone to find a more user friendly, well managed site of ANY genre anywhere on the net. It's simply incredible when compared to just about anything else out there.
I imagine this site will set a trend that will be copied by other sites in the future and will not get the credit it deserves for being the site that did it "first".
RDO's latest post with the stats on dropped passes is just more proof of what I'm talking about. But RDO's post, while certainly one of the very best of it's kind ever posted on AP, is still only one in a galaxy of posts about stats.
We are apparently, and rightfully so, obsessed with stats. But do stats always tell the truth or can they be completely misleading? Let's take a look shall we?
I promised no more Cassel discussion from me for the rest of 2009 only, so I've kept my word. My time is come again.
Statistically, Matt Cassel did a better job in NE last year. So the obvious answer is that he was surrounded by better talent. His receivers could actually catch the ball over there. His HC coach was arguably the very best to ever grace the NFL sidelines. His QB coach was considered to be so talented he went from QB coach to HC in a single bound. That is very impressive in and of itself.
While that is certainly a huge contributing factor and statistically all that can be validated, is that the only reason he did better in NE? Well certainly from a direct impact standpoint, the answer is yes. But what about the not so "apparent" factors that could have led Cassel to be better in NE than in KC? Are there factors in his case that you can't capture with a statistic? I believe so.
As most of you probably already know, I'm a huge Tom Landry fan. SO I will start with a Landry quote. "Leadership is a matter of having people look at you and gain confidence, seeing how you react. If you're in control, they're in control." Or how about this one from the grandfather of all NFL great coaches, Vince Lombardi. "Confidence is contagious. So is lack of confidence." And this one also. "Life's battles don't always go to the stronger or faster man. But sooner or later the man who wins, is the man who thinks he can."
I've looked but believe me there are no stats for confidence and it's effects on a team in the NFL. But that does not mean it's not just as big of a factor as anything else you can gleem from a statistic. I have no doubt in my mind that Cassel'sbelief in his coaches and his receivers in NE went a long way in contributing to his continued improvement last year.
I would say that has everything to do with Orton's success in Denver as opposed to Chicago. Throwing to Eddie Royal, Scheffler and especially BM cerainly could only serve to boost one's confidence.
In the game, I believe it was against Cleveland, Matt Cassel threw a sloppy lob to Chambers on the left sideline, which Chambers mercifully grabbed out of thin air. We applauded the play because it was a success. But the throw itself was an all day interception waiting to happen on any other Chiefs football Sunday. But he threw that ball with confidence in Chambers ability to catch if he could just get the pass inside a certain window. And guess what ? Chambers responded with a confident almost miraculous snag for a long competion. It worked. Confidence led to confidence which led to a successful play. That is the same thing you see Manning and Brady and Brees do every week. Those QB's throw completions that could just as easily be int's. But their recievers catch the ball. They break a tackle. They get the first down. They keep the chains moving. And IMO every one of those QB's is on a TEAM which is part of an ORGANIZATION that exudes confidence. From the ownership down to the GM, to the coaches to the play of the team on Sunday's to the fans.
So, what's the problem here in KC REALLY? I believe it has to start at the very top here too. It's the same food chain in KC as in Indy, Pittsburgh or NE. It always seems to start at the VERY top and works it's way down from there. After not winning a SB since the 60's, I think it's fair you start to doubt your ownership.Yes, problems like our's here in KC all stem from an organizational problem IMO.
This is deeper than talent. This organization has lost confidence in itself and it's really beginning to show. Look, it's not just Peyton Manning that makes that team great. It's the whole thing. There's a quiet calm over there. A steady confidence. It's a look in their eyes. It's in their facial expressions. It's not a stat thing. It's a human thing. Yes, I know the obvious answer is that their loaded with talent so it's easy to have confidence when you have that. But many of you are nodding your heads in agreement because you can see where I'm going with this.
NE, Indy and PIttsburgh are ORGANIZATIONS that win. Not just TEAMS. They can change coaches, staff, GM's QB's HC's players, it doesn't matter. They win anyway. There's something to be said for that. Something no stat will ever answer.
Those teams have consistently proven that it doesn't matter which piece of the puzzle changes, they still find a way to succeed. They do it all the time. For example, who is Garcon and how did he become great? Really? Who is he? NE is the same thing exactly. They can bring in a pro wrestler and convert him to NFL greatness. Those teams could bring in the local Ice Cream Truck driver and he would look great. Those teams really could win with any 22 guys off the street. It's something that goes far beyond any raw talent on the part of the players.
Tell me, do you think NE or Indy or Pittsburgh would have traded Jared Allen away because of a DUI and little off field trouble? If that was the way of the NFL in general, we wouldn't have an NFL. There aren't many choir boys playing pro ball. IMO, we seem to have our priorities screwed up here in KC. It's more about image than winning.
Which is why I believe that in the end, it will fall squarely on the shoulders of Scott Pioli to change the entire perception of our organization. He must find a way to change our culture here in KC. He must find a way to instill a system that will work no matter the individual pieces of the puzzle.
The cycle must be broken and confidence must once again pulsate thru the Chiefs organziation like it once did. It's not something you can point to in a stat. It's not something you can touch. It's something you and I as fans can sense. Something we can feel. It's something we can see in our players eyes when they take the field. It's that confidence that we ARE going to win each game we play. And that may not have any statistical backing but I think it's just common sense.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Very nice kray!!!
Slow clap…turning into an applaus!
You hit the nail on the head kray. You got it right on the money. After Herm and Carl started the rebuild our confidence got flushed down the toilet….along with talent.
No one respects the Chiefs anymore…not the media, not the rest of the NFL, and not even most of our fans.
You are right, this has to end! This will be an offseason for the ages….the most important one in our lifetime….possibly.
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
by Matt_Grbac on Jan 3, 2010 9:28 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Pioli and Haley have talked all along
about a “winning culture” on the team, and that’s certainly part of it. But nothing generates that culture more than actually winning some games. That has to happen on the field.
My very first post here was about how the new zone blocking scheme was contributing to the offensive line taking a step backward – and that Larry Johnson wasn’t the right guy to run behind it. I personally think that Jamaal Charles’ immediate success upon Johnson’s departure has mostly to do with the fact that he’s better suited for the zone blocking scheme than Johnson.
You can make a strong case that a zone blocking scheme on offense is more effective – just as you can make a strong case that a 3-4 defense is preferable to a 4-3. But both require the linemen to radically change how they do things, and it’s inescapable that while you’re transitioning to these new schemes, you’re going to lose a lot of games.
If I understand you correctly, Krayfish, you’re saying that confidence begins at the top of the organization – and you clearly have confidence in the guys at the top. But for the players to have confidence in those guys, they have to see that what they’re being coached to do actually works.
Personally… I would have preferred that Pioli and Haley waited a season before making such radical scheme changes. (I’m not talking about retaining ArrowSpread, BTW – that was wholly about Thipgen and his abilities) I don’t have a problem with eventually transitioning to new schemes, but I think P&H could have inspired a lot more confidence within the team by not blowing everything up. It could have resulted in two or three more wins this season. That’s the kind of progress that really builds a winning culture… and the confidence of which you speak.
John
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
I don't agree
If they don’t immediately change the schemes it just prolongs the inevitable. Say they kept the oline and defense schemes to the basic and 43. How do u draft TJ for the 34 and make him play 43 for one season. Even if the other way produced 3 to 4 more wins your still taking a major step back when you change and they learn a whole new system the next year.
The changes needed to be made and now year one of transition phase 34 is over…now it’s here and we can build off this season.
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
by Matt_Grbac on Jan 3, 2010 9:45 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yes...
there would indeed be a transition to live through whenever you switch to a new scheme. The question is whether the transition would be easier if the team had won more games in the previous season, and whether the team would buy in to the changes more readily if they had first tasted a little bit more success. We don’t know, and we never will – that’s the very nature of these kinds of questions.
John
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
A Crucible?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Jan 3, 2010 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
Yah that's a very good observation RDO. I think again, it's like a dog chasing it's tail
here in KC now. Our players do not seem to have confidence in their coaches and the coaches would appear not to have confidence in each other as they are all getting fired and moved around as well on a regular basis. I just didn’t want my post to be 5 pages long so I didn’t throw all the obvious stuff out there. But your are right on that this winning confidence comes from the top down. And back again really. You have to actually win to get confidence, but you need confidence to win.
I agree that some gradual progressive changes might have served us better.
I daresay it’s good for any of our players and coaches to do their jobs under diress, for fear of their jobs, than because they love the game.
We’ve lost our focus. There’s been too much ping pong going on. We need some stability. Some familiarity. Not all this crazy switching of players and coaches all year long. It’s crazy. No one will ever gain confidence like this.
This next year needs a drastic change. We need a calm steady hand at the helm whoever it is. Haley or Spongebob, I don’t care, but we need stop all the distractions and commotion and get settled down and concentrate on football and winning.
Tks Rdo
Now about waiting to switch to the 3-4, well I need to add that I don't agree about that specifically
I think you can’t draft and FA properly if you don’t know what you need. And you won’t know what you need if you don’t get right to it. But I’m talking more about the constant shuffling of players AND COACHES.
You hire a coach and tell the players to TRUST their coach implicitly. So they do. Then you fire him. Then they don’t. Then you bring this coach from his current position and have him take over where that one was. Now they are supposed to trust him implicitly. Then he’s gone. Now what?
You tell your QB to trust your recievers…then you fire them. NOw what? You can’t be this inconsistent and crazy all the time with moving people around so much. It’s time for us to chill and work with one group of guys all the time so they can relax and learn their jobs and do them instead of looking over their shoulders right?
I agree, Krayfish
that you have to draft based on your long-term plans. And to use Matt’s example, it certainly doesn’t seem sensible to play Tyson Jackson in a 4-3 if he’s really better suited to a 3-4.
But Tyson Jackson is just one guy. The whole defense had been built as a 4-3. The question then becomes whether you switch now because you have one or two guys who are suited for it, or switch when you have two or three more who are suited to it. Seems to me that you have a better chance for a successful transition in the latter case – and a better chance to win a few more games in the first season.
I agree wholeheartedly with you, though, that the constant change this season hasn’t been good for the team. The firing of Gailey so close to the start of the season was the biggest part of that.
John
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
They already brought the 34 coaches in I think
They were already head strong for the 34….seems like a Pioli decision since Haley is not a defensive guy.
They were changing over regardless so they figured why not start right away….especially when u use the 3rd pick on a 34 DE….,although personally I would have been ecstatic with Aaron Curry and stuck with 43….
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
by Matt_Grbac on Jan 3, 2010 12:31 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
That's exactly right, Matt -
headstrong is precisely the right word for it!
But, you see… this is exactly my issue with it. We all understand that a given coach will have a way to do things that he believes brings the best chance of success. That’s perfectly OK.
My issue, however, has to do with being a successful NFL head coach. The very best of the bunch – Shula comes to mind – are the ones who figure out how to best use the tools on hand. Miami was undefeated in 1972 with a great defense and an incredible running game. But when Shula had Marino to work with, he did what worked best with him.
John
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
Right
Its all about strategy and what the coach believes is the “right way”. Haley was a Parcells apprentice so he probably believes he will try and emulate Parcells in a lot of his ways. Having never been a HC at any point and having never played I could see it being very difficult to learn on the job in the NFL. Yeah he has worked under some good coaches but that is not always an indicator of success.
Haley has a belief that he will impliment his “system” and find players who will work best in it…..Gaily and Herm were quite the opposite at the end of their tenure. We built the system around the players we had.
My personal opinion is you can have immediate success with building the system around your current talent but that will be short lived. You wont always have those guys you built your entire philosphy around. Having a system in place allows you to stand the test of time by always being able to find different guys who can continue your success and ways of doing things.
I think the way to do it is set the system in place….and Haley has done that. Now hire great DC and OC and positional coaches. Keep them as long as possible to develop continuation and success. That is how you become a Colts, Patriots, or Steelers organization. Continuation of the system in place. Always having a guy ready to step up and fill a spot. Bill Belichick always has very young up and coming assistants on his staff….they always get promoted and he hires new ones…..its a continuation….a cycle, if you will.
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
Also....
That way of continuation allows you to never even utter the words “Rebuild”….
When is the last time the Pats, Colts, or Steelers rebuilt like we are doing? I dont even know.
Get the Cycle started and never let your foot off of it like Carl did. After Marty left the Cycle was broken.
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
Well, we're not that far apart here, Matt.
I readily acknowledge that a given head coach has the best chance of success over the long term by doing it the way he knows best. I also agree with you that generally speaking, sticking to that serves you well over the long term.
But my point is that believing, for example, that a 3-4 defense is the way to go doesn’t automatically mean you have the right people to run it. I don’t see what’s wrong with making the transition a bit more slowly.
But hey… it’s water under the bridge now. We’re going to be a 3-4 team as long as these guys are running it. Whether it might have been smarter to do it more slowly no longer matters – we’re committed to it now.
John
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
excellent Matt...that's exactly what I was aluding to in my post
It’s the SYSTEM of winning organizations that keeps them at the top. So that no matter who comes along they just have to step in and continue in the path that has been laid out for them.
Yah to you and Matty's point (Happy New Year Matty)
I am not sure we needed to switch to a 3-4 at all period. This whole defense was drafted for a 4-3. It’s easier to find guys that can play in a 4-3 for sure too. It’s just that if your going to do it, they decided let’s get right to it and get the painful growing stage out of the way.
Continuity
Kray, I agree completely with the importance of developing some consistency with who is on the field, and what roles are filled by each player. I hope this year was about Pioli and Haley getting to know every aspect of their team and the organization, and that next year players, coaches, and other members of the organization know the PLAN and can implement it with a firm belief in what is going on.
What can I say
I’m not sure what I was expecting when I clicked on this to read, but what I found was a long blame Cassel for everything post with a bit of fire Pioli as an after thought. Yes in a way you are right the team lost it’s winning ways and took a step backwards, that was why Peterson was fired, and now after 1 season your ready to fire Pioli.
Come on Man give me a break, You want to win now, Hell we all do. The thing is most of us understand that it’s going to take 2-3 years to get back to where we are a playoff team again. The team as a whole is being remade from top to bottom just as you demanded, but your not willing to give them the time to make it work.
As far as Cassel goes, I’m willing to wait and see what he’s like when he has a line to protect him and receivers that can catch a ball. Once again it’s too early to rush to any judgements, there’s a very busy off season starting tomorrow. Why do you think this team should turn into a playoff team in one season? This team is closer to an expansion team than a contender but yet the moment something doesn’t go right there’s always someone willing to call for another’s head. I really wonder if the roles were reversed and you were in their positions with people calling for your head how you would react, they have all acted very professional in my opinion
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
This Chiefs team is closer to a new expansion team than it is a playoff contender, your expectations should match that.
You should read it again...
I think you may have missed the message.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
Agreed
I’m confident he did
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Jan 3, 2010 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Yah you must have read the wrong post. I am fully confident in Pioli. As I clearly stated
he is going to have to be our savior. No one else can. I do not trust the Hunt’s to do it. Their too concerned with image over winning. Lamar should have stepped in and refused to let Jared Allen go. That was a bonehead move and the owner is directly responsible for that.
Plus I am saying it’s tough on Cassel because we are not giving him the tools he needs and one scheme and one group of guys to trust. That builds conifidence. Not a different reciever every week and a different coach every month.
Try reading it again from that view point. I was actually defending cassel and cheerleading for Pioli. I never said anything about winning now at all. Never. Not anywhere in the entire post. So maybe put the weed down for sec and re read. BTW
This reminds me of the old days….ahhhhh. memories…allright dukes up fanatic…it’s on ding ding!!
Nice post
Kray! I do agree that the chiefs need that swagger back. We need to have that feeling that when its overtime and we have the ball at midfield, then we are going to find a way to get those 15 yards for a fieldgoal try and not find a way to give the game away. I think this all starts with management getting the right mix of guys in the lockerroom and it seems like we’re starting to do this (Cassel, Charles, Chambers, Vrabel, Hali, etc…), but there’s a long way to go, that’s why I think this years draft will be the most important draft for KC in the last 10 years.
Now isnt the time to draft that kid who is a project player and could turn out to be great, we need players who can come in their first year and make an impact. If you think back to the start of this past decade the New England Patriiots were like the Oakland Raiders and the Raiders were like the Pats are now, pretty crazy. But how did NE change that, they got good management to get the right mix of guys on the same squad and play smart, tough, calculated football and bring back confidence.
REC
rec Kray
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Great post and rec'd
The times when I’ve been most disappointed in the Chiefs was when it seemed the ownership and the rest of the organization didn’t really care. Which translated to disrespecting the fans. If the organization didn’t care, why should I.
Although we and the team have had a bad year, the organization has changed and now cares as much as the fans. We finally seem to be headed in the right direction.
yah breederI think your right. I think clark realized he was outleagued.
If he followed in his fathers steps we would simply be the same loser team for the next 50 years. He handed the keys to Pioli and seems to have disappeared. Which is what needs to happen.
Pioli can do this. He just needs some time.
re
As fans of the Chiefs we have to realize the difficulty of winning in the NFL. Were playing against teams that often have a group of players that have played together for years. All the springs, OTAs, two a days, practices, games – that produces a cohesion you just can’t replace. If this team actually had the draft and FA offseason beyond even the stupidest mock drafters wildest dreams they would still be a league average unit because this league is TOUGH to win in.
I agree with your post. They need more time. I think Haley needs to figure some things out. I’ve seen coaches take over teams and have decent years and i think i can give Haley a C, maybe even a D. All the groundwork for confidence, leadership, cohesion, cultural change….. you know what – all they really did was fire people, release players, and trade for players that won’t be on our roster next year. I call this year a wash.

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