In Defense of Coach Haley's "Attitude"
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 7, 2009 1:23 AM CDT
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I was writing a response to another fan post and it was getting pretty wordy, so I am posting it here. I have been reading some readers bashing Haley's demeanor and his "my way or the highway" attitude. I want to defend the way that Haley has handled the Chiefs so far; I think he's done a pretty remarkable job and I expect the team to win between 5 and 7 games (which would put Haley on the same level as Vermeil and Schottenheimer in their first seasons in KC). With the exception of not dismissing Chan Gailey during the winter, I think Haley's made all the right moves.
I was wondering how many readers on AP are coaches? I am not meaning to say that people who have never coached are not entitled to an opinion, but I have some insight into this. I coached high school football and wrestling for ten years. I have been a head coach and run my own program. I also taught a class on sport psychology. I never approached coaching at the pro level, but ultimately the psychology of it is the same. You have a group of people you are trying to motivate, teach and get to maximize their abilities. I coached wrestling but had never wrestled in school (I only played football). If you know your shit, nobody will care that you didn't play the game.
Toddy Haley is taking over a program that was a loser. Mediocrity was acceptable. Lack of discipline was the norm. The reason Haley made the team lose weight was when watching game film from last season, the players were noticeably getting fatter as the season went along. The Chiefs were losing games due to conditioning, they lost games as professionals because they were fat and out of shape. As a high school coach, that's just mind-boggling. You never lose because of conditioning because it's too easy of a factor to control. That Herm's team couldn't finish games because of too many trips to Krispy Kreme and not enough time running and lifting is simply an embarrassment to the Kansas City Chiefs organization. We were lucky to win 2 games last year.
The head coach of a team runs a program. That's the job, if it's high school or the NFL. The head coach of a team has a philosophy about how he thinks teams win. When Marty was in KC, he believed in ball control, defense and protecting the football. The games were boring as hell, but the Chiefs were in a position to win in the 4th quarter almost every game. Herm's philosophy was pretry similar to Marty's. A coach's philosophy isn't up for a committee to vote on. It is truly his way or the highway. It's up to the head coach to tweak his philosophy if it fails. And if that doesn't happen, then the coach should be terminated -- if his way doesn't work then you gotta find the guys whose way does work. Example: If a coach believes in running the football, then that's the way it is. If everybody isn't on board that and buying into it, then the team will fail. I think the Raiders are a fantastic example of allowing the inmates to run the asylum. That's their deal, that's their "mystique." And in the modern age it's a complete and utter failure. Literally, Al Davis can't get anybody to take his head coaching job. Three years ago Art Shell took it as a favor to Davis because no one else would take it. Davis had to hire Lane Kiffin (who had never coached in the pros or been a head coach at any level in college or high school) because nobody would take the job. It has to be the head coach's way or the highway. A good coach learns from his mistakes. If he's wrong then fire him.
Haley has a pretty daunting task in front of him -- he has to change the culture of a losing organization. He has to take a bunch of fat (they lost almost 800 pounds in the offseason) undisciplined players and make them into a disciplined unit, also called a "team." And he is trying to do this in as fast a period of time as possible. I don't think he gives a shit if he's hurting anybody's feelings. As fans we'd better hope he doesn't care if he's hurting anybody's feelings or this boat ain't every going to turn around. His job is to win games, not be a guidance counselor. His job isn't to make sure Brian Waters is comfortable. If Haley puts being likable above winning, well,then he's Herm Edwards and we all know how well that movie ends. I think we will see Haley start to dial back on the attitude as he gets his guys in and as the current guys start to buy into the program. Mike Tomlin did the same thing in Pittsburgh. Right now he is trying to change the culture as fast as he can. And the Chiefs culture sucked.
Coaches have to work within the parameters of their personalities. I haven't met Todd Haley. But, it's highly possible that his personality is that of a hardass. Tony Dungy is a nice guy and he was able to make his nice guy personality work as a coach. However, I do tend to think that coaching is a career field in which nice guys do normally finish last. Dungy is the exception rather than the rule. Most head coaches are taskmasters. That's their job and I can tell you it isn't always fun.
I noticed somebody mentioning Herm had won more games than Haley. Well, no shit Sherlock. A guy with 8 years head coaching experience has won more games than a guy who has yet to coach a regular season game. Following that logic we can report that Herm has also won more games than Liza Minelli and R2D2. I think Haley will have a higher win percentage than Herm (.422) after 8 years.
And one last thing, we are only privy to about 10% of what's going on at One Arrowhead Drive. We have no idea what Haley's demeanor is like in meetings. We know he gave the team a day off and took them bowling because he was so pleased with their efforts during OTAs. Brian Waters appears to have gotten with the program.
As a guy with a coaching background, I like what I have seen from Haley so far.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Im onboard wth hailey
I think we as fans will come to appreciate what he is doing
I agree 100%
I went back and read your post twice.
Let me add, that in New England, Pioli bought the grocieries, and Belichick made the dinner.
And that’s a proven formula because, when you are Pioli’s coach, the man has your back, all the way. He’s proved it with Belichick. He doesn’t have to prove it again, it’s going to happen. You can have the luxury of knowing, 100%, that that part of the business is going to be run the right way, and focus on coaching.
And sure there are going to be doubters, like Whitlock, etc. But, if you are familiar with book 1. If you’ve read that book, you have a good idea how book 2 is going to end. And it will be the same way with books 3 and 4.
As I read your post, it reminded me of a book I read by Bill Parcels, where he says many of the same things.
Haley doesn’t have all the answers. But, he has a plan, and he’s surrounded himself with people of like mind, and people he can count on. He’s not as green as one might think. He’s been in the business awhile, and he’s seen what works and what doesn’t.
It’s not going to happen overnight, but I think you will see flashes of the team of the future, this very season. Maybe for entire halves of football games at a time, maybe in the not too distant future.
never thought
My fanpost would incite people to write entire fanposts of their own… ha..
I understand all the catch words that people want to use, I just have a hard time with someone acting like a hard ass and public berating and cussing at grown men in any situation, never the less while teaching something he’s never experienced.
Yes, the culture of complacency needs to change, dismissing players, and cutting players/coaches that can help the chiefs win, simply to stroke you’re own ego (my opnion, obviously not fact)… is not okay.
Too many people are missing the idea of what that post was. It was just meant to be a talking point. Can someone really respect a guy that is yelling and screaming and cussing at another grown men when he hasn’t been in the trenches? Can I respect a guy that cuts productive players and coaches because of a powertrip, and generally acts unprofessinally. Frankly, I hope he’s the best coach KC has ever had because it means we’re winning ball games. But the post was never meant to be a review of his abilitites, Just a talking point about his demeanor, and whether or not people could really respect that kind of behavior/attitude from a guy that was a golfer in college. Don’t act hard if you haven’t been there.
It would be tantamount to a veteren going to a combat school after spending years in combat and having some beauracrat that has never been to combat yell and scream and cuss him out and tell him how to fight a war. At least that’s the way I see it.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion
Just don’t expect many people to agree with it.
That last paragraph draws images of “Men of Honor” where the pencil pushing geek tries unsuccessfully to thwart Robert Denaro and Cuba Gooding Jr.
It’s really not like that and definitely not “tantamount” to that.
Not everything is on par to what takes place in the military. The NFL is a business at heart. You have a boss, and you have the employees. Someone hires the boss. That could be the CEO, the President, or the Board of Executives. Then that person is responsible for running said business. That’s what this is “tantamount” to.
Employees who don’t respect the boss, don’t last. Not in a well run company anyhow.
That comment by Rev. Slappy about Oakland being an assylum run by inmates, is what happens when you keep dissidents around who undermine their employers. That message really hits home.
The Tuna may have played a little LB in college, but that’s not what made him a great coach. He was a great coach for the same reason that other great coaches are great coaches. He commanded respect, because he had the power to hire and fire as he saw fit. When Krafty tried to take that power away, he fled the Patriots, and cried foul. And he was right, because Kraft came to understand the error of his ways, and 3 SB’s later…
I never saw the original post in question, but I really hope this wasn’t about Pollard getting cut. Hell, if he mouthed off to one of my assistant coaches or went after the legs of my starting QB I would have fired him a long time ago.
by jcru on Sep 7, 2009 4:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What you are missing
Is that he also publicly compliments and rewards the guys when they do it the way he wants. I’m not a coach but I have spent close to 20 years in front line supervisory management and I will tell you that the positive feedback is what people crave and when you have both positive and negative feedback coming at people it doesn’t take long for them to adjust what they do so they just hear the good stuff. Nobody likes to be yelled at, but if people aren’t doing what you require you have no choice.
I get the impression that you’re biggest problem is more a matter of it not being politically correct to yell at someone in public. In a private business I agree with that and believe you should always take someone aside and berate them privately and compliment them publicly. That gives the best results. But the NFL is hardly a private business and everything is done right out there in the open for all to view. So the yelling and everything is there for a horde of reporters to report on. But how often do they bother to report the attaboys and pats on the back? Almost never. So we get a skewed impression of what is going on.
I also have had lots of experience putting together teams of people to work together. In watching who is being cut I have not gotten the impression at all that these are being done to stroke the boss’s ego. I’m not sure what vantage point you are looking from.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
by Zodeman on Sep 7, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well said Zodeman!
Yell at 1 or 2 guys & you’ll end up complimenting all of them at some point in time because the others will strive not to be yelled at & the one’s yelled at will do it right the next time. It is just human nature. The only one’s that would complain would be the malcontents whom are looking for something to complain about anyway. Haley has already shown glimpses of letting up once things are going right (bowling once & one practice rather than 2 & other small signs)!
I'm not trying to say everything is on par with the military
I was using an analogy. One that I thought could be easily understood by many people. The NFL is no more like the military, than it is a real job. I absoloutely agree that haley is the boss, but in the real world a Boss wouldn’t be too successful/around long if he were constantly berating and cussing at employees, and firing productive members of a team for personality conflicts. At some point that boss needs to come in and earn some respect. Rather than showing an iron fist (covered by a golf glove) and being a hardass. We’ve all had a boss come in to a new job and try to be a dictator and generally dismissive of the ideas of others, and how long do they last? not long? Oakland is effed up because Al davis uses the team as his own personal circus.
The reason the tuna was able to get away with acting the way he did was because he produced results, he was a winner, it’s amazing what people put up with to win… Haley hasn’t done squat to earn that kind of demeanor.
Parcells and Haley are not two people that can be measured on an equal plane. Parcells earned his coaching stripes over man years and at some difficult institutions. If you do want to compare the two, look at the pigheaded decision he made to bench phil sims all of 83 based on personal bias. The team went 3-12, that’s where we’re headed. … and again, please don’t compare parcells to haley, they’re not in the same coaching universe, regardless of what tree he falls from.
that last point...
There are a lot of parallels to Parcells, Belichick, and Haley. I’m not saying that Haley’s success is automatic, a given, or written in stone.
But, once upon a time, someone in the NY Giants uppercrust decided to take a chance on the linebackers coach during a team shakeup and elevate him to head coach. He didn’t have that winning pedigree, not yet, but he was exactly the same as the guy who went on to win 2 SB’s with that team. Same personality, same everything. At least he’s true to what he is.
That’s all I’m saying. No one knows the future of Haley or this franchise. But, I’ve seen a lot of “players coaches” who want to be the player’s buddies and I’ve seen the alternative. It’s a more difficult road to do what Parcells has done and what Haley is trying to accomplish, because there is no job security in being the bad guy, unless you win.
I'm not making this stuff up
When Parcells left the Patriots, he quoted this famous poem:
He read it out loud to the press when he resigned. It is self explanatory. You have to be true to yourself. You can’t expect Haley to come in here and be soft, until he has his first winning season, and then all of a sudden he has license to be as hard as he wants.
That’s apparently your theory. But, first and foremost, you have to be true to yourself. You have to be “in character” at all times. This is who he is.
Excellent point. To be successful, you must be yourself and I believe that Haley...
is his own guy……….that is why he will be successful.
To be fair, and just because my specialty is in Shakespeare,
I would have cited Hamlet:
From Polonius to his son Laertes before he leaves for travel on his own:
This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell; my blessing season this in thee!
by DThomasReigns on Sep 7, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Respect
agreed that is what it comes to. I will say this much from what I’ve learned from the world:
It’s way easier to take Haley’s approach and then be a nice guy than it is the other way around. If you have earned the respect of the people you work with, THEN you don’t have to yell.
Exactly
A new manager/coach always has to come in and be the hard ass first and the nice guy later. If you come in as a nice guy, no one will respect you when you try to yell at them for fucking up.
You earn the respect by going in and not worrying about being liked. When your employees/players finally get praise from you, it gives a positive reinforcement rather than maintaining status quo. It also clearly seperates those who work from those who don’t, which is motivating by recognition.
I can relate to what callmesir is saying.
There has to be a happy medium. I am currently unemployed (after 8+ years with the company) because they promoted a part-time employee into management and he decided to fire the entire team below him (I was the last to go, so I know…it took 10 months to fire me, but he got there). He just wanted his own hand picked crew and was threatened by anyone who had been there longer than him. Although I don’t know, I would be surprised if he still held the position now. And with the bad economy, the company may be gone as well (I suspect the reason they promoted him was because he shared the same religious/political views as those promoting him…that’s no way to run a company).
With all that said, I am not yet ready to believe this is the case with the new KC regime. I think Haley is just trying to turn things around ASAP. Extreme circumstances require extreme measures, and this team was BAD.
To give an opposing example, when I was a teenager I had a job stocking shelves at a local grocery store. I was working in my aisle and a new kid (less than a week) was working in the next aisle over. I heard the bossman walk down the new kid’s aisle and say, “This is all you’ve got done?!? Get out of here, you’re fired!” You can bet your ass, I picked up my pace.
This got kind of long winded here, but my basic point is that I see what you are saying, I just think it is a little premature at this point to think moves are being based on an over-inflated ego on Haley’s part.
Rectal Froth
Three points I'd like to make:
1. I think the NFL is more like the military than, say, working in an office. While the things that happen during a game are not life or death, a game is violent and intense. A coach who doesn’t bring an intensity to match the level of the game is going to lose. Every single time.
2. I’m not sure what you mean by Al Davis using the Raiders as his “personal circus,” but the problem the Raiders have is an extreme lack of discipline. It used to work for them in the days before free agency but it’s dreadful now. The head coach recently punched out an assistant coach, for God’s sake. Haley only fired Gailey.
3. You say that Parcells is allowed to be a hardass because he is a winner and has the right to be a hardass. OK, but explain to me how Parcells got to be a winner. Did he do it by serving tea and crumpets? No. He got to be a winner by being a hardass! Parcells wasn’t a nice guy until he won the Superbowl and then thought," Hey, I’m a winner now. I can yell at my players! Won’t they be in for a surprise!" And I think Haley has earned the right to be a hardass, This is is first HC gig, but his offense was good enough the win the Superbowl last year. He’s been a proven winner at every coaching stop he has had or he wouldn’t have been promoted.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
man I just can't catch a break
When I use a military analogy I get told off, then I say the nfl isn’t really like the military and I get corrected… geesh…
Al davis uses the raiders for his own personal entertainment, I think he’s so old and on the verge of death he doesn’t give a shit what happens so long as he’s the puppetmaster…
Parcells learned to win and to be a hardass under someone elses tuitilage during several college stints… However, the one thing that keeps getting missed is that the problme I have with haley is his attitude coupled with his lack of experience. It’s hard to look at a guy that’s screaming at you and cussing at you to do something differently when you know he hasn’t/can’t do it… Parcells has…. Please please please stop comparing Haley to Parcells, they are worlds away, If Todd Haley wins a superbowl in the next 5 years, I swear on everything I hold holy, I’ll retract every negative thing I ever said about him… it obviously won’t matter… but he hasn’t won anything yet.
Al Davis is fiercely competitive and deeply wants to win.
But the game has passed him by.
Also, I am not missing your point about Haley never having played the game. I just don’t think there’s any relevance to it. I coached a sport I didn’t play and I coached a sport I did. I knew my shit and worked hard and nobody cared. Let’s use Larry Fritzgerald as an example. Did Fitzgerald look at Haley and say, “Fuck you, dude. You never played. You have nothing of value to teach me. And stop yelling at me!” Nope. Fitzgerald let Haley coach him and LF’s game got even better and now he credtis Haley’s hardassness (that’s a word a just made up) with helping him get to the next level.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
I haven't seen anything yet
that shows fitz crediting haley with anything. I don’t know that either issue I keep bringing up is a problem independently… but becomes a problem when put together as a headcoach… And I think fitz’s attitude is more a testamant to him as an individual. I can tell you that Last year I coached my nephew’s legion ball team then coached my little boy’s soccer team. I never played soccer, I had much less info to pass on about soccer than baseball, but our situations aren’t the same, obviously he’s on a different level, when you’re being paid millions to be a coach you put in a little more time and effort… Just wonder if he’ll end up having a mutiny on his hands.
Zodeman has numerous links posted to the Haley/Fitz stuff.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
and it didn't say anthing about fitz giving him credit
it only said that haley made fun of fitz, and fitz stepped up his game.
CNNSI
and it’s also here in AP
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/jim_trotter/07/16/wrs/index.html?eref=sihp
again... nothing about crediting him...
just a statement about haley having a convo with him… I can tell fitz to not be complacent but it doesn’t mean i did anything for him… People… haley didn’t make fitz…. FITZ made fitz the best reciever in the nfl
You're right
“Complacency is a terrible thing to have in our business,” says Fitzgerald. “Todd Haley talked to me about that our first year together [in Arizona]. It’s kind of the worst thing you can ever have in sports — complacency in losing, complacency in winning. You must never forget the hard work that it takes to be successful out there.”
that doesn’t sound like Fitz is giving Haley any credit at all.
Haley coached, instill, beat, whatever you want to call it, that mentality into Fitz’s head which then has caused Fitz to go nuts in training, practice, and game time. If he didn’t Fitz wouldn’t have mentioned his name. Why would he if he didn’t appreciate Haley’s coaching or used it as motivation.
This is just getting silly now. How would you define the word "credit."
You’ve decided you don’t like Haley and no logic or reason or actual evidence will change your mind. You can hate the guy if you want to, but I think people are offering up some pretty valid counterpoints to your arguments.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
maybe it is just
semantics, but I don’t see that as him giving him credit for any success on the football field. I absoloutely agree that people have had some great arguments. The only issue is this thing has branched off into 5 or 6 different issues, when the main question I wanted people to talk about was whether or not haley’s credibility suffers with his hardass attitude and his lack of experience.
To be fair, without fitz already having that drive to defeat complacency then he wouldn’t have gotten to the point his is.
Coaches get entirely too much credit for success, and too much blame for failure.
As an example, this last year I had an interview with a local paper about a kid that played well for our ball club. The kid didn’t get to play much 2 years ago but went crazy this summer putting up .790 on base percentage over 33 games. The paper tried to give me credit for teaching the kid to hit. All I did was tell him that kids at this level don’t have breaking stuff they can throw for strikes. Don’t guess. See fastball, hit fastball. I don’t deserve credit for instilling an idea in his head, he did all the work. Untill I see fitz come out and say Haley taught me to be a better wide reciever, I’m discrediting the idea that he had much to do with his development.
If I were a player I wouldn't care if he played or not. He coached in the Superbowl last year.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
That's not speculation. That is what I really think. I would rather have Haley than Herm as my coach.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
no it doesn't
the main question I wanted people to talk about was whether or not haley’s credibility suffers with his hardass attitude and his lack of experience
It’s a very simple answer and you won’t listen to it. Apparently you hate it when you get yelled at and have projected that feeling onto all the players on the Chiefs.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
it's not a simple answer because
neither of us are players i just want to hear the opinions, My goal isn’t to get people to turn against haley, I just wanted to hear what other people had to say.
Everyone that has posted
has said NO his credibility doesn’t suffer in countless various ways & yet that differs from your opinion so on & on we go for the better part of this day!
how about we give kurt warner some credit
without throwing him the ball he wouldn’t be anything…. kurt warner has a history of working with good recievers…. was he great because of the wideouts or was it the other way around? frankly it’s a combination of the two…. so lets get it out of our heads that Haley really did all that much for fitz…
like you say
It is a combination of the two so lets get it out of our heads that Haley had nothing to do with making Fitz better.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
And when St. Louis started deteriorating, suddenly Warner's beaten-out by Bulger.
Packs his things, lands in AZ, where they seem to understand offense, and slings his way to the SB.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
anyone can motivate.
Not everyone can teach/coach… There’s a huge difference… I can tell d bowe, hey work that fat off your lazy ass, and run harder every play, He may work harder and have better stats, but it doesn’t mean he should get credit for that.
what is your
definition of coach/coaching teacher/teaching? because i think that’s where i’m getting lost. i think we (you and I) and others aren’t on the same page in that aspect.
to me, motivation is a MAJOR part of coaching, in fact, at the pro level, probably the most important.
I don't think
saying to a pro athlete, hey don’t be complacent is motivation, or even good coaching, every coach says dumb crap like that.
To me coaching/teaching is the physcial act of showing a kid what route to run or how to place his hands, or how to move his feet… Frankly very little of that is actually done at the pro level, but if someone were to show you how to create seperation by moving your body some way, I could see that as a tangible effect on someone’s development.
The way I took it when the articles were all coming out around superbowl time
Is that this was not one conversation where Haley just said this. It was a culmination of Haley riding his ass like he is riding asses on this team now, and that this was the epiphany point of the relationship. I think maybe that is the difference in how you are seeing it and how I interpreted it.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
If that's the way you read it
I absoloutely understand how you could see him giving haley credit for his development… but it’s certainly not the way I read it.
I don't even see it as Haley ridin' Bowe's ass so much as the ACT of demoting him
from 1st string. Haley said nothing bad about Bowe that I can remember. Just kept saying that the guys who do it the way it’s supposed to be done will be starting, and stuck by it. And I did see key changes in D-Bowe’s performance. He was alREADY a beast, but NOW he’s catching everything and doing some decent blocking.
I’m not giving Haley credit for that, but I’m sure not bringing up D-Bowe as an example of how Haley’s mishandling things!!!
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
You have an opinion that will not be changed no matter what evidence we present
If you won’t take the time to read the articles…I can’t help you. I read a lot about this back when the superbowl hype was going on and Fitz most certainly did credit Haley with raising his game. Do your research before you speak.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
you're getting a little
pissy, I think I’ve done more than my fair share of research. I don’t think I’ve said anything that is “wrong” yet. How about you stop being such a homer.
I’ve read the articles, I just don’t see that as a situation where Todd Haley deserves the credit for telling a guy, hey make sure to keep trying hard… every coach says crap like that… Don’t question my knowledge or my ability to research because you don’t agree with an opinion. Especially when it is an informed opinion
right...and apologize
I think this has been a great debate. I do respect your opinion, but certainly don’t agree with it. From how I read it Fitz says he gives Haley credit. I just don’t see how you read it that he had no effect.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
sir not to pick a fight
but when u were serving in im guessing the army did u baby and cottle your soldiers, and if so how did that work for you?? i know as an NCO currently in Iraq that most troops i deal with will try and walk all over you if you are too nice to them i yell and cuss when its needed and recieve positive resullts, and i only have lead a squad of 8, i could imagine how much yelling i would have to do with 80 guys under my leadership espicially if they performedas poorly as the 2008 Chiefs
Sounds like picking a fight to me.
I guess that is to be expected from anything that begins with, “not to pick a fight, but”.
And I think the word you were looking for was “coddle”. “Cottle” is not a word, unless you were referring to Major Sherman Cottle, M.D. of Battlestar Galactica. With all the military references…one never knows.
Damn people, can we not respectfully agree to disagree?
Rectal Froth
i dont think i was disrespectful at all
i just didnt want it to be taken the wrong way. oh and thanks for being my dictionary…..jk
kewl
I was referring to the comment “serving in im guessing the army”.
If I were in the army, I would take offense.
If I were not in the army, I would take offense.
Seems like a lose-lose.
Anyway, you seem to have a sense of humor, and I am not here to fight even my own battles, much less anyone else’s. Just making a point. So, to keep things in a good mood, I leave with a joke:
It was a beautiful, sunny Sunday afternoon while Moses, Jesus, and another guy were out playing golf. On the first tee-box, Moses pulls out his driver and blisters a shot up the right side of the fairway, rolling fast towards a water hazard. Moses quickly raised his club, parting the water while his ball rolls through to the other side safely.
Next up on the tee, Jesus hits a really long drive right towards the very same water hazard. His ball came to rest dead center of the pond, hovering just over the surface of the water. Jesus casually walks out onto the pond, and chips it up onto the green within a couple feet of the flagstick.
Not impressed, the third guy steps up to the tee without taking any time and just randomly whacks at the ball. Rightfully so, the ball is hit with a nasty hook that clears the left OB markers and goes over a fence into oncoming traffic. It bounces off a truck’s windshield hitting a nearby tree, bounces onto the roof of the greenkeeper’s shed, back out onto the fairway and towards the same pond that Moses and Jesus hit. Before it gets wet, the ball ricochets off a small rock and bounces onto a lily pad on over the water when a bullfrog jumped up and ate the ball. Right at that moment, a bald eagle swoops down and grabs the frog, flying away. As it flew over the green, the frog squeals with fright and drops the ball right next to the flagstick, taking one bounce and landing in the cup for an astounding hole in one.
In disgust, Moses then turns to Jesus and says, "I hate playing with your Dad."
Rectal Froth
by The Donger on Sep 8, 2009 2:44 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I also think we are forgetting that
coaching football is light years away from playing football. How many ex-nfl players have you seen try to make the jump and failed (my favorite example: Herm Edwards). True, many of today’s coaches were on the field at some point in their career (even Pioli the personnel man lined up in the trenches), but how many were superstars? Most of them simply did not have the talent level to be highly successful. However, they did have the intangibles to become great offensive co., def co., and head coaches. Botom line: playing the game does not mean you can coach the game.
Also, it’s not like Haley stopped playing golf last week and came straight to the Chiefs. He has been engrossed in football his entire life. And the comment “Parcells learned to win and to be a hardass under someone elses tuitilage during several college stints…”? Doesn’t Haley’s time under Parcells qualify as the same thing? I can’t think of a bigger hardass to study under than Parcells
Finally, I think it is a lack of knowledge, and not so much a lack of playing experience that will alienate players from head coaches. After all, no one likes a dumbass! :)
Herm Edwards, donut eater
You and your post are about as valuable as Tyler Thipen
[img]http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eTH2sm73rf3u/610x.jpg[/img]
either you're a Thigpen fan, and that was meant to be a compliment,
or you need to make sure when you comment you don’t include personal attacks…lets all play nice
Agreed
Leave out the personal attacks, peterman
by DThomasReigns on Sep 7, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Pretty harsh comment
For someone that doesn’t back up their opinion with anything. Care to explain why this post (and the poster in particular) garner such hatred?
Seems to me your comment is the one that lacks any real value here.
Agreed I love Hailey and Your a thinker
Lets just hope you didn’t scare off the Hailey Haters by writing full paragraphs, with complete thoughts and managed your emotions while writing.
Touchdown
Kan..Sa...CITY
-Mitch Holthus
Excellent Post Coach
I’ve never been a coach, but I’ve been a supervisor and manager of people for many years and there are so many similarities. You have to make it your own. Dungy was a nice guy and didn’t yell, but I guarantee you the nice guy part went away when it was time to make the hard decisions about who was doing the job and who wasn’t. Here is what is expected and you either do it or don’t, no yelling, but no Mr Nice Guy sentimentality about it either.
Loved the post..
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
As a Coach~
of 20 years of H.S. Baseball, I can say one thing about this post~
AGREED 100%, and to you callmesir~ you seem like you may need some yelling at yourself~ just to get you over the , I CAN NOT BELIEVE you’d yell at me COMPLEX, you seem to have.
I would say, you liked the way HERM coached~ letting grown men be grown men, the problemn is simply this: if you let GROWN MEN who play a sport for a living be accountable, then what in the hell would the coach have to do in the first place?
be like herm and say,, ITS OK!~ I just cant handle that anymore! YELL AT EM COACH, TELL THEM LIKE IT IS and LETS WIN SOME MFn BALL GAMES!
TY COACH HAILEY for making grown men be accountable~
TY VM!~
What do LAWYERS and SPERM have in common?
One in TEN MILLION make a HUMAN!
Off-topic!
Do you guys still have the “deuces wild” announcer for your games? Played for El Dorado Elks & American Legion & still remember when playing in Chanute the announcer stating: “the deuces are wild! 2 balls, 2 strikes on the batter with 2outs & 2 on base!” It made us laugh every time!
That was back in the day
IF I have it right, his name was Dick West!~ Came up with a few slogans, and announced the game like he was doing live radio~ Dueces wild, ducks on the pond, foul by a whisker, and when playing at santa fe he would say~ right down santa fe for a strike call.
Am I having the right scorekeep/announcer?
I remember those days well!
What do LAWYERS and SPERM have in common?
One in TEN MILLION make a HUMAN!
by Kansan_Chief on Sep 7, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I never knew the name
but those were some of the sayings. I had forgotten “right down Santa Fe” but I chuckled just now as you reminded me. I played there 30+ years ago & he’s probably the one announcer that I remember his commentating! Thanks for the feedback & geaux chiefs!
Topanga > callmesir
Just because Topanga freaking rocks!
“You can’t yell at me, I’m Topanga!”
That and Topanga is a fictional character
I'm a grown man
That has done something far more important than playing football, and only been yelled at a handful of times. There’s a difference between doing in contructively and doing it to berate a player, and again, as a high school coach there are instances where you need to do that with a young man but These men aren’t children, and this is their job, how long would your boss last if he acted that way?
Comparing a coach to a boss in an office setting is not an apt comparison.
I would agree with you that as players get older and more mature they should (emphasis on the word “should”) require less yelling. However, football is a pretty intense game. Sometimes yelling is the exact right thing for a coach to do. Yelling gets a guy’s blood flowing and his adrenaline pumping? Ever see guys in warm-up head-butting each other or slapping each other? That’s why they do it. Most athletes don’t enjoy being dressed down but the understand it and accept it as part of the game.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Wait and see.
I’m taking the wait and see with Coach Haley. I see pros and cons to the way he has handled things although I do like what I have seen in terms of how he deals with the players. They have a job to do and they get paid millions of dollars to do it right so, he is entitled to make them do it right. If he has to yell, so be it.
On the other hand, I have not been as impressed with some of the personnel decisions they have made since taking over. Some have actually been pretty stupid if you ask me but, hey, I’m just a fan. What do I know?
If Haley wins all the games we should win this year, I will be okay with him. If we manage to pull off some upsets along the way I’ll be riding the Haleywagon. However, if this season is abyssmal like the last 2, I will be the first one calling for his head.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 7, 2009 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions
I obviously
Do a poor job of trying to get an idea across. My thoughts have been interpreted about a million different ways yet, I think very few people actually get what I’m trying to say. They get to a point where they think I’m hating on haley, and close their eyes and minds and say blah blah blah I can’t hear you.
I’ll try to make my thoughts about the situation as concise as possible.
What I see, is a guy with no real credibility, coming in and acting like a hard ass, and potentially making personel decisions based personal conflict or ego as oppossed to what is best for the team. You can’t tell me firing chan gailey two weeks before the season was a good move, motivated by anthing other his own ego. Bill Parcells earned his stripes through college coaching, at some difficult places like west point and the AF academy. He was also promoted to DC before being a head coach he didn’t go from linebackers coach to HC.
It’s not a matter of whether I think he is a nice guy, or is politically correct, It’s a matter of me wondering one thing. Does he lose credibility with players for acting like a hard ass without having earned his stripes? Once you lose credibility or have lost the confidence of the team leaders, you’ve lost the team. It only takes crossing the line a few times to lose a team. I wonder if his approach, is what will ultimately be successful in building a super bowl champion. I have an issue with haley’s tactics because I want to see the chiefs win. You can’t win if there is a mutiny. Hopefully, this clears up my position a little bit, and will keep the personal attacks at bay.
There are entirely too many people here that can’t have a open conversation about something if they don’t agree with the premise of a question. No need to dismiss the ideas of others just because you can’t seem to understand someone else’s point of view.
But he does have credibility
Coaching Fitzgerald to be one of the best players in the league is not an easy task. For that matter being the O Coordinator of a superbowl team is no easy task. But i definately do agree with you on some points. Firing Gailet this close to the Regular season is a piss poor move, period, no matter who you are.
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Gailey*
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
if we're going to give someone credit for fitz...
let’s give it to walt harris, he has a pretty good history with talented wideouts… but frankly, I don’t think you can give a ton of credit to a guy for coaching up an uber talented guy like fitz. Arizona would have had a pretty good O regardless of who the coordinator was. I really think he was just the hot name at the time, and the chiefs wanted to get the fanbase excited about chiefs football after a horrible year.
funny
Fitz gave Haley credit for coaching him up. The old one-trick pony story.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
I'd have to see
That in writing beofre I accepted that as fact. I just don’t see it… He was dominant way before haley got ahold of him.
OK...read
Kent Somers of the Arizona Republic says Larry Fitzgerald has emerged as a Cardinals leader. The way former offensive coordinator Todd Haley challenged Fitzgerald at camp one year ago resonated with the star receiver. Haley mocked Fitzgerald as a “one-trick pony” who needed to diversify his game. Fitzgerald responded in a big way.
Found it here
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
Oh, and if that wasn't enough
Do this google search and read all you want.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
to be fair..
all that article says is that he made fun of a supremely talented athletes ability, anf fitz got better no mention of fitz saying haley did anything. if that’s all it takes i’d be the best oc ever.
But you have to know
WHEN to make those comments. And yes, it is just fine tuning a good player. Hell, nobody could take Jeff Webb and turn him into Larry Fitzgerald. But you also to be fair have to give the coach some credit.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
I agree that coaches should get some credit...
Poor coaches may miss a chance to correct a route, or tell someone to be more aware of something. But like the old adage goes, Coaches get entirely too much credit when things go well, and entirely too much blame when things go poorly. You couldn’t take the Rams as is and give them the best of each coach in the NFL and make them the patriots. Talent is the single most important aspect of a good football team.
A bad coach would lose with the Patriots talent.
If I were a GM I would spend huge money on my coaching staff. I would spare no expense to have the best coaching staff in the NFL. There isn’t a salary cap for coaches and with the parity in the league being what it is, coaching is gigantically important.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
you give me
Adrian peterson, randy moss ,fitz, peyton manning, the chiefs offensive line from a few years back, the ravens defense when they won their superbowl, and there isn’t much I can do to screw it up, Talent is by far the most important thing on a football team
Email me your play book.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
So you don't think any coaching went into developing any of that talent?
The Ravens’ D had nothing to do with the scheme being run or the stunts being called by the DC? A good OC calling the plays has nothing to do with an offense doing well?
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Talent's big.
And that’s why GM is so important, because getting an edge on talent is deliberately made difficult, in order to bring parity.
The fact is, ‘most ALL the guys you see on the field are “all-world athletes.” I would argue that in today’s NFL, the coach is more important than ever. Look at that first SB by New England. Look at Pittsburgh from last year. The worst SB-winning O-Line in HISTORY. If it’s just talent, the ’93 – ’96 Chiefs make it at least to the AFC Championship every time.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Marty Booker
with the Bears, seemed to appear with Haley’s arrival & then disappear after he left! Hmmmh
so you're telling me he coached him up
while he was there, and booker suddenly forgot how to catch a football as soon he left. He forgot everything haley taught him because Haley wasn’t there to hold his hand?
does that really make alot of sense?
we could also attribute his success to the fact that his 2001 season corresponded with the mythical third year bump in ability. And his drop off in production could never be attributed to a horrible miami offense could it?
Perhaps
but quite a coincidence that his best 3 years corresponded with when Haley was his wide receivers coach.
What I see
Is a guy who doesn’t like Haley because he didn’t play the game. You say Parcells earned his stripes. So Haley starting out as a personnel guy with the Jets under Parcells, being promoted to WR coach, moving to WR coach under Jauron and coaching a guy to the very first back to back 1000 yd seasons in Bears history, moving to passing game coordinator in Dallas under Parcells and Homo becoming a Pro Bowler under him, and then going to AZ as OC and the team making it to the Superbowl gives him no cred whatsoever? Have you read his bio?
I totally disagree with you on him making all his decisions based on ego and not the good of the team. My life’s experience of being around very successful managers tells me everything he is doing is for the good of the team. We will have to agree to disagree on that point.
And yes, I contend that bouncing Gailey was a good move. The fact is I really like Gailey, and I think he is the real deal and knows his shit better than most OCs you could find. Once again, I don’t see this as an ego move as one to make the team better. We will never know the exact reasons for the change, but I feel it was a difference in attack concept. I think Haley will be a more aggressive play caller and we’ll see less R2P2 going on than we saw last year and in preseason. I think Haley has great respect for Gailey but it just wasn’t going to happen that they would be able to coexist peacefully. It was adding a tension to the room that is unacceptable if you want to have a smooth operation.
I think I can see your point of view, but I disagree with it almost entirely. My question…is can you see my point of view?
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
Chiefs went from 3 current or former OCs to only 2.
Might’ve been too many cooks spoiling the broth, with Haley preferring Muir to Gailey in terms of working relationship.
What little the players have said since Haley took over as OC is that the pace of practice is markedly faster. None of this lollygagging at the pace of the slowest guy. More of a hustle-hustle, and the slowest guy isn’t on the roster, tomorrow (Ashley Lelie).
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Simple answer. No
Haley has not lost more players with his attitude than he has gained.
Vrabel and Thomas never said one thing and more importantly seconded Haley in chewing out those that didn’t do it right.
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
Part of my issue...
is that it’s alright for a guy like thomas or vrabel to say these things because they are warriors that hve been through it before. They’ve also had a ton of success as football players. You can respect a guy like that getting in your face because you know he understands what it takes to be a success.
Please take into consideration that all of these players are now Pros.
They have had nearly a dozen different coaches or more and every one of them had a different approach. Some Coaches they love and some they despise yet they played well and became pro NFL players. They know, at least the ones smart enough, that do what your told get along and like a soldier keep your head down. Too many players, can’t keep their head down or their mouths shut.
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
I can see your point of view
I appreciate that you obviously love the chiefs and want to support the HC. I don’t hate the guy because he didn’t play, I just wonder if he loses credibility when he couples that lack of experience with a brash attitude. In my book, he does, Although I understand where you’re coming from. I am a ND fan and love me some charlie weiss. Even though he had no playing experience and hasn’t produced for a couple of years. I really do get where you’re coming from.
As far as comparing him to parcells, haley got his first job because of dad. Parcells was all on his own merits. Also, He gets entirely too much credit for being around at the same time as some super talented guys like fitz and boldin and TO and keyshawn. at the professional level, a position like wr coach or quality control, is more about watching film and correcting small errors, like making a cut a yard too soon, There is alot more Teaching involved at the college level, and Parcells proved his knowledge by teaching.
Mark Mangino at Kansas
Never played ball, nor did Mike Leach at Texas Tech. I just don’t think it’s as big a deal as you make it.
And I think the thing you are missing about the brash attitude is that there is also positive reinforcement happening too. If it as all yelling, I would agree with you 100%.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
I'm sure
I just wonder if he loses credibility when he couples that lack of experience with a brash attitude.
I’m sure there are some people with whom he would loose credibility. But as Haley has said…at this point he wants guys who can tolerate his style. He doesn’t expect to connect with everyone and that’s ok. If you don’t like it we will find someone who can handle it. Early on, Jon McGraw made the comment that being yelled at didn’t motivate him, but guess what…he seems to be “getting it” and is listed first team. Results are what counts, not hurt feelings.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
he's "getting it"
because he wants to earn a paycheck. It’s the ole fake it till you make it, if you don’t respond to that kind of attitude you’re not learning anything. Anyone can fake it to prevent being yelled at.
and that's a point
They are all pro’s and they all want a paycheck so they are going to keep at it. And maybe you can fake whether or not you like it but you can’t fake on field performance…and I think that will improve overall.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
mangino and leach are college coaches.
There’s a difference between instilling discipline and yelling at bit at an 18 or 19 year old kid to help him grow into a man, and berating and being dismissive of the ideas of a grown man who is a professional making lots of money to do a job. I’m sure it’s not all negative, but I think it’s entirely too much negative considering these are all grown ass men and not kids.
I believe that you missed Zodeman's point.
He was stating that neither of them played football in reference to your remarks that Haley couldn’t demand respect because he had played golf instead of football. You don’t have to be in pads to “earn your stripes”. He has been around football since he was born. He was the ball boy for the Steelers when Chuck Noll was the coach. This is his 14th year as a coach in some capacity.
Granted, his was a shorter route than some due to who his father is but obviously Pioli thought enough of him to make him his choice as head coach of the Chiefs! Not having the physical tools to play football & choosing to play golf instead, really has nothing to do with anything. Lots of the most successful coaches weren’t ever players.
Or played different sports than the ones the ultimately wound up coaching.
I can’t imagine Lou Holtz was a very intimidating football player.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
I got the point...
Several times I’ve stated that it’s more a combination of his lack of playing experience and his attitude that is a problem. How can you berate a guy without knowing what it’s like to actually do it? I have to think he’s just going to continue to alienate people, and at some point it will be the wrong. guy. I said I don’t have an issue with a guy that hasn’t played… I love me some charlie weiss, it’s a coupling of the two issues that I see as a bigger issue.
LOL
I don’t know if he has alienated any of his players…but he has certainly alienated you! :-)
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
by Zodeman on Sep 7, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm gonna rec that because...
it’s so true… I have no idea what the players think of him, I just wanted a conversation about it. … but you’re right he has alienated me. If I was a guy the size of brian waters I would have squished his little head… ha
I get you, callmesir.
Taken in isolation, just catching a 20-second soundbite that the reporter thought was worth serving up to me, I thought Haley sounded pretty negative in the way he was talking to the players, and as a teacher, singling out people for punishment and public ridicule is a no-no (especially when I have the red pen that silently arbitrates every disagreement between the student and the knowledge). But I also know that a group of guys who care more about the finished product than the short-term ego will SOUND very disparaging in the way they talk to one another, to an outsider, especially. If they care about winning, and they’re workin’ hard at it, there’s an honesty there that’s hard to beat.
I think the bottom line with Haley is if what he’s saying is right and pushes everything in the direction of success. And I tend to have confidence that that is what’s happening, based on everything I’ve seen, taken in toto. I’ve seen enough of his wit and lurking sense of (dry) humor, that this is exactly the way a guy doing the right things is going to come across. He has the wit and he uses it in the moment. And most of the guys he’s working with take each other to task in pretty much the same ways, using pretty much the same language. It’s something they understand, and something that Haley totally “gets.”
I still think that Dungy shows that it can be done successfully without throwing barbs. Not sure I could do that. I know I couldn’t lead a prayer very convincingly at halftime, though.
Now that the cut-down to 53 has been made, though, ANY player’s failure on the field DIRECTLY affects the whole team. And, in spite of an intention to re-work the roster every day for the next decade, it’s more about winning with the guys you have than it’s about winning the job in the first place. The relationship between coaches and players has just changed. Haley’s invested in them doing well, now. Haley’s not seeing if they will break down, but trying to see that they’re all rested UP.
I’m looking for news stories about the extra day off after victory. The little things the organization doesn’t have to do but DOES, because it makes life easier for the players they now treasure. The one shot where Haley uncharacteristically puts his arm around Lawrence after a tough drop, in a game where Lawrence goes on to catch 8 passes for 95 yards, including a TD grab… “He’s just blowin’ past those corners, Mitch, and Cassel’s delivering the ball. Chiefs are definitely putting the league on notice with this Lawrence kid.”
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I would really like to know
what you are basing your opinion on about his “attitude”.
Yeah, let's just keep matriculatin' the ball down the field, boys! ...
Wow...
we don’t know what we don’t know, but some day we’ll see. interesting post.
A couple o' things, maybe three.
After long years as the son of a drill-sergeant, I DO think there’s something to what callmesir’s saying, in the sense that sometimes the “mutual personal regard” is lost when you go beyond correcting something to verbal abuse. I thought that Cunningham was a prime case in point where seeing something wrong became an excuse to go on an ego-serving rant.
On the other hand, there’s a culture of tough talk in football and amongst men in general, wherein those who are part of that culture talk TOTAL shit to one another. It seems like there’s no respect, but there’s a LOT of respect, because the guys respect one another, and part of that respect is speaking roughly to one another. If the guy is one of the guys, and he knows his shit, he can clothe his remarks in abusive-sounding language to an outsider. And if the new coach doesn’t talk that way, you might lose some of that team identity.
I’ve been around guys who don’t “get” the “I like you is why I’m talkin’ shit to ya” thing. The guys who DO get it say some of the MEANEST things to me, and it’s funny as hell, because they get it, and I get it. There are unwritten rules in this sort of thing, and some guys, like callmesir, for instance, won’t take that from anybody who hasn’t been through the same kinds of fires he has. It’s a brand of arrogance that can be won over by proving yourself to such people, but you’re never going to get the benefit of any doubt until proving yourself.
Over history, the groups of men who have exceeded all expectations and done great things, have not been led by men who were particularly warm and fuzzy. Roman legionnaires were typically more afraid of their generals than they were of anything the enemy might do.
And I’m not sayin’ drill sergeants are necessarily outta line with their typically abusive behavior. They’re trying to weld a large group of very different people into a fighting unit, and while each guy has his own personal buttons to push, the drill sergeant needs to come up with one approach that, in a very short time, has these guys in shape mentally and physically to survive and prosper on the battlefield, and the guy aimin’ his gun at you isn’t contemplating your difficult upbringing, or your psychological state. He’s tryin’ ta KILL ya!
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I think drill Seargeant is the right analogy
but, unlike a drill seargeant that trains em up and passes them off. A sports coach has to do both. Weeding the players in some fashion of his choosing and Now training the chosen to accomplish the Mission
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
another difference is
in football you don’t risk courtmartial and imprisionment from not “getting it” (or when the shits really hitting it, firing squad).
If Haley is unsuccessful, he will have serious trouble holding his team together if he doesn’t have their respect. There is no real threat other than being cut (and likely going to a better team).
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Sep 7, 2009 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Nope. But by the same token, you CAN cut a guy 'cuz he ain't fast enough.
I agree that these guys are pro’s, and from my experience as a teacher, an honest evaluation of their work is MORE than ego-shattering enough. And losing a multimillion-dollar contract is a HUGE club to hold over a guy’s head. But I’m not trying to get these students of mine to risk life and limb in front of 70,000 screaming fans and millions of t.v. viewers. I’m not expecting them to engage in psychological warfare against a trash-talking WR.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I think you said that very well
I especially loved the gunther analogy… Maybe we do need a guy that is a hardass and maybe he’s super well respected. I don’t know… The whole idea of basica training with DS’s and new soldiers is to break a person down and rebuild them in the way you want them to be rebuilt… but is that appropriate for a bunch of grown men playing a game for a living? After all it’s not war…. But again, wanted to compliment you on how well you stated that.
I do hope you plan on sticking around regardless of this issue:)
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
Thing is, some guys can "get away with it" and some can't.
If Haley’s got what it takes to be a head coach, then he’s one of those guys who CAN, and coming across as a hard-ass in OTAs thru September as 1st-year coach on a 2-14 team is pretty much what you’d see from a guy who was gettin’ it right, especially with a Bowling Night and an early release mixed in there. Haley’s one of those guys, yes, like Parcells, whom you might HATE as his player, but you can’t HELP but get goosebumps if the guy says anything GOOD about you (in spite of yourself), because you KNOW it means you’re something pretty special. The guy that has you spending an extra hour a day on the jugs machine, when nobody’s around and nobody’s watching, ‘cuz you’re gonna SHOW HIM!
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I would like to commend callmesir for how he has handled all of this.
Over multiple posts, he has been soundly and calmly debating the topic (with a few exceptions) despite being outnumbered.
He is definitely doing his best to keep the discussion on the discussion, even as it evolves.
I am not taking either side at all.
I agree. The level of conversation on this site is generally miles ahead of what passes as "debate" on the internet.
Right now we are all just speculating. Based on my own experience I think Haley is going about things the right way. But I may be wrong and time will tell that out. I do think we all hope Haley is the best coach in Chiefs history.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
I would also like to thank most of everyone else
for also debating the topic.
Nice rebuttal in your FanPost too, Slappy.
by DThomasReigns on Sep 7, 2009 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I think this has been a great debate
This is the thing I love the most about AP…people able to lay down sentient arguments and get some knowledge out there. We most certainly don’t have to agree on everything…but so many sites I’ve seen its just personal attack and no substance. Kudos to all the posters for the quality.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
yeah it's been fun
But I think it’s about time to end all this, I think all has been said about it that can be, and frankly AP is great but there’s still a "hey you’re a noob so you don’t know anything feel… I think I’m done posting on AP but I’ll still lurk because I like that there is literally info about every possible detail of the chiefs… At least I’ll help traffic for ads… right??? ha
please
Stick around and continue to comment. Taking a position many disagree with can certainly bring out people’s dander, but you still have a voice as important as any of us. Don’t let it get to ya!
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
As both of you have stated,
it has been a lot of fun & I learned a lot from this post that I didn’t know when I got up this morning. You made many valid points, callmesir, I just wish that you hadn’t gotten so “bent out of shape” about Haley though. I want to wait & see how the players react to him throughout the season rather than jumping off of his bandwagon at this early stage. What has he done that caused you to make over 80 posts trying to get everyone else to get down on him also??
callmesir
If you haven’t already, read this.
At least it is a good laugh after all the tension. :)
by DThomasReigns on Sep 7, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Great Post
I don’t agree entirely but still think it’s a good post. Here are a few thoughts from my personal experience
I never liked being yelled at as a son by my father, and didn’t respond well to it, but that’s a different scenario alltogether. Haley’s not a father to the players so that doesn’t apply here.
I didn’t get yelled at much by my drill sergeants because I watched them yell at the screw ups and made sure I didn’t make the same mistakes. And it made me a better soldier. Haley’s not a DS either, but this does partially apply.
Whether my football coaches yelled (in disciplinary fashion) at other players or myself, I tried to apply what they were teaching others to my play at my own position. Fundamentals are the same. Attitude issues need to be publicly addressed so that it doesn’t become viral. As a college football coach I can say that yelling is something you have to do to be heard a lot of the time because of the noise on the field and in the stands, and because the guys are wearing helmets, and because some football players have hard heads; besides the fact that yelling comes from excitement and it does mimic the intensity on the field as one comment above said. While Haley is a football coach, he’s not a college football coach and so this only partially applies. At every level of football that I coached and played at there have been players who haven’t liked how things go and they chose to walk off the field permanently, often after a public and verbal altercation with a coach. I think it’s part of life…I’ve seen the same thing in the workplace, where people argue with a manager and leave because they don’t like the situation there. It’s their perrogative I guess.
HOWEVER, it’s important to remember that these men on the team are paid professionals who are expected to perform. If they don’t perform to the standard of the coaches and the team, they need to first be motivated. Certainly there are numerous ways to motivate people. We’ve seen Haley motivate people a number of different ways: run when they jump off sides; demoted them on depth charts; yelled at them; talked to them, coached/taught them; and he’s fired them. And from what I’ve seen on video of how Haley handles his players (don’t know how he speaks with his coaches in meetings and so forth) I think he uses a fair mix of approaches to communicating with his team what he wants and how he wants it. After all, that’s his job. I’d wonder about him if he only used one of these methods all the time. He said publicly that the coaches as well as the players will be held accountable for their performance. It’s possible that he wanted to give Gailey and many of the players (that he kept from the Herm era) the benefit of the doubt that they could conform to his style/philosophy of football before he just booted them off the field without much cause. I think Haley has been and will be successful in the NFL is because he is a good coach.
The future is ours KC Chiefs fans!!!!!
N. Gift
by giftedchiefsfan on Sep 7, 2009 8:49 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
Haley kind of reminds me of my coach in middle school.
He was a total hardass, and I remember several times he embarrassed me in front of everyone, but when he ripped my ass about not getting off the ball fast enough, you can bet your ass I was firing off like a shot after that. I’m from a small town, and I was in a class that was extremely low on football talent (and size) but thanks to the way we were coached, every game we played was pretty close, and we even won a few that we shouldn’t have… Just my poorly constructed (sentence-wise) 2 cents…
yes, very poor sintinces.
Just share what you have to share, and no need to apologize for your writing. And your writing gets better the more you just join in.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
QFT
And one last thing, we are only privy to about 10% of what’s going on at One Arrowhead Drive.
CNN = ABC = NBC = CBS = FOX = Chris Mortenson Journalism
play better pool - http://www.sticksandstonesbilliards.com
I guess the underlying question is simply this:
Do we want a coach who is going to build a winning team that competes each year for the title, or do we want a personality that will be well respected by the players the media and every fan of the organization?
For me I say this:
1) I don’t care what he does or says as long as he stays out of trouble with the law
2) He encourages each and every player to be the best that he can be on the field and off
3) He brings that winning competitive team to Kansas City that we have so desperately wanted for so long
4) Its impossible to please everyone so the notion that he will is ridiculous
5) I have found that some anger in your voice has a place in teaching men to be successful at sports. The lack of any emotion would just make a younger player eventually think it just doesn’t matter what he does as long as he is still on the team – see Herm Edwards 2008 Chiefs team.
"But what do I know, I'm AP's new assclown and I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Awesome post and awesome comments
My reaction to callmesir’s OP was just flat angry and I should know better than to post comments while angry. But Rev. Slappy, Zodeman, jcru, giftedchiefsfan, and Lanier63, you guys stepped up and made some great points and were very tactful as well. Sorry if I missed anyone.
There is one thing I appreciate about callmesir’s posts and it took me a while to figure this out. He thinks Haley’s a detriment to our team and it pisses him off. That much I can appreciate and can call him a fellow fan for it. Many of our positive opinions of Haley are only a projection of what we hope he does, not what we know he’ll do. At the end of the season, we’re going to have to evaluate him again by what his “right 53” were able to accomplish. In my opinion, 5 wins earns him my continued admiration given the lack of talent we have. Anything less and I’ll begin to be more critical of his abilities. But I’d much prefer to hope he does well and wish him well at this point.
by ChiefsDude on Sep 8, 2009 10:24 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Very balanced perspective on the differing viewpoints.
Thanks, ChiefsDude.
by DThomasReigns on Sep 8, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions
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