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Overvaluing Talent / Undervaluing Fit



Bernard Pollard gets cut and mass panic ensues from some Chiefs' fans. Before we get too far ahead of ourselves we need to ask this, "Could it be that we as fans get attached to a player for whatever reason and they might not be that good?"  Or do you keep a player who doesn't fit with your team's scheme and isn't coachable?

During the Rams preseason game, Pioli made mention during his interview with the Chiefs' TV crew that they would be keeping the best players for the team not necessarily the most talented. What good is talent if you don't have the Football IQ and willingness to do what the coaches want you to do?

Many people are stating that we should've kept Pollard for trade purposes. The problem is the Chiefs did attempt to trade Pollard but apparently they didn't receive any offers. You can't just keep Pollard around hoping that someone will come calling for your third string safety later in the year.

But let's go back to the assumption that maybe we as fans overvalue talent especially in regard to scheme. We think that McGraw, Brown and Morgan are a level below Pollard but look at what Haley said regarding the competition in the secondary:

The defensive backfield as a whole, I think, there’s excellent competition,’’ Haley said late last month when asked if Brown had pushed Pollard for the job. “I don’t think there’s anybody who feels real comfortable. Mike’s one of the reasons for that but I think that’s the way it is across the board there. Those guys know there is somebody right behind them that could be playing just as well as them. That’s how you get your team good.”

Biggs: Chiefs exploring trade options with Pollard

 Could it be that because we didn't watch all of the training camp sessions and weren't in the team meetings, we might have missed a few items regarding Pollard and for that matter the some of the others? Also doesn't this mesh with the underlining assumption of Coach Haley that when a team is 2-14 no one is safe? We fall in love with measurables but if they don't follow direction it will only lead to frustration. As Haley points out:

 I’ve got to go by what I see and not go by what I hope. I would never have fun with somebody not playing that I think can be a pretty good player or is kind of wasting our time and his. That would never be fun for me. I want us to be good and everything I do has to be thinking about that.”

Q&A with TODD HALEY - 9/1

It's also become painfully obvious that between the change in scheme and the poor drafting / FA pickups of Carl Petersen our football IQ level is what are record says it is. Pioli doesn't need the most talented player rather he needs those who fit the scheme and put team first. Now in an ideal world you get a mix of both (i.e Tom Brady, Mike Vrabel, etc). The next couple of days will be very interesting because I think you will see more cuts from our roster and you might even see a trade because I think it is safe to say that even the 55th best player on the Steelers, Ravens, Patriots, Chargers, etc could be a better fit than our 45th roster spot (as an example). It's all about finding the blend of talent, football IQ and scheme fit. If it's one thing we know, Pioli will be very active in trying to find the right fit but he won't panic and that something we need to remember when a player we really liked winds up somewhere else.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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I don't think most people are upset that Pollard isn't a Chief

They are upset he was cut instead of hanging on to him for some sort of compensation. He was a 2nd round pick and one of the leading tacklers on the team the last several seasons. There is value there at some point. Maybe not this last week, right before cuts, but during the season there is no question someone would be interested.

Even if they wanted to start one of the other Safetys over him, Pollard still has value on Special Teams whereas Brown does not and Morgan has yet to make an impact, so he would not be a wasted roster spot.

I think Pollard is a good player. Maybe not the best type of Safety for the new scheme, but he was an ASSET, and I think it was irresponsible to simply cut that asset without gaining some compensation in return just because you didn’t get any bites in a week.

There were several players I would have been happy to see cut to make room for Pollard, even if its just in waiting for a trade. Terrance Copper is a perfect example. As much as I like Dantrell Savage, I’m not clear how he will be contributing as the 4th RB that they apparently don’t intend to use in kickoff or punt returns.

http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com

by ChiefDJ on Sep 5, 2009 8:18 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I totally agree.

This was set in motion weeks ago when Pollard blew up at Pendy and also had to be repeatedly told to shut his mouth in training camp. There was plenty of time to posture and negotiate for at least a 7th (which we don’t have next year due to trading it away to move up for TE O’Connell).

If they don’t want him on the team, I am fine with that..but this wasn’t a spur of the moment decision in just the last few days. There was time, especially for a “master” like Pioli. They may have tried shopping him, per the reports, but that was only reported yesterday. If they waited that long, the blame does fall on them. No one is going to trade for someone they know is going to be cut.

At the very least he was one of the best special teamers we had. Aside from ST tackling, name 1 other Chief who has blocked a punt in the last 10 years. Pollard has more than 1 block, and many other nearly blocked kicks.

If he didn’t fit Haley’s way that is fine, but that was evident weeks ago. That is when we could have traded him for something, not 1 day before cuts.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

Future Mrs. DTR

"64-bit Snow Leopard Awesomesauce...I haz it."

by DThomasReigns on Sep 5, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And before anyone responds about his whiffs,

I am only talking about Special Teams, not his Defensive tackling. He was good at running down the field and blowing people up on Special Teams when he did that his first couple of years.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

Future Mrs. DTR

"64-bit Snow Leopard Awesomesauce...I haz it."

by DThomasReigns on Sep 5, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What we don't know

is how Pollard would of responded to being benched and openly shopped. Pioli and Haley probably have a better handle on how that would of went down. This team has enough to worry about without a possible distraction like that. I personally don’t see a guy with his type of agressive attitude being content to ride the bench and then go kill himself on special teams, as a rookie maybe, but not after being the leading tackeler on the team.

The Good: Hiring Pioli and Haley, Drafting Tyson Jackson
The Bad: The Offensive Line Play
The Ugly: Thigpen Trying to Play QB

by KCporkchop on Sep 5, 2009 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A missle made in the third world

As likely to bounce off the target as it is to blow it up

by mushin on Sep 5, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

my favorite

is when he would lower his shoulder without looking and the ball carrier would slide under him causing Pollard to tattoo one of our own guys who was behind him.

The Good: Finally cutting Sackintosh
The Bad: Not cutting Copper
The Ugly: People FREAKING OUT about Pollard

by KCporkchop on Sep 5, 2009 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he had value he would have been traded before

The Chiefs obviously place a higher value on roster spots for players they think fit than players that they think don’t.

As far as cutting him within a week, I believe they’ve been trying to move him for a while. It was several weeks ago that the Chiefs tried to move Morgan, don’t think they didn’t do the same for Pollard.

If there was any value there, the Chiefs would have done it. I think too many teams knew he wasn’t a fit and would be cut at some point.

by Joel Thorman on Sep 5, 2009 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A higher value on roster spots

For players like Terrance Copper, Tyler Thigpen, Quinten “I’m afraid to get hit and can’t return kicks” Lawrence, Ricardo Colcough, Pierre Walters, Demorrio Williams or Turk McBride? Even Dantrell Savage as much as I like him.

Morgan had ONE good game against the 3rd teamers in the 4th preseason game.

I simply don’t understand why they couldn’t have carried him on the roster, used him in special teams if they didn’t want to play him, until some teams safety got hurt or was looking to upgrade.

Pollard may not have been the best in the world, but he was a damn site better than what a lot of teams have back there. Considering the trash we still have on this roster, I think we could have waited.

http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com

by ChiefDJ on Sep 5, 2009 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to mention

that they tried to trade Morgan long before Pollard. They don’t think that highly of Morgan to justify having a Safety corps that is made up of 50% injury prone players.

Morgan’s one game, in which he nearly gave up a touchdown on the INT whiff while he blew his responsibility, instead of respecting the CB’s position.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

Future Mrs. DTR

"64-bit Snow Leopard Awesomesauce...I haz it."

by DThomasReigns on Sep 5, 2009 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think one thing that might be a bigger factor then we think

is the failure of Zach Thomas to make the team / the grear play of Mays. Thomas was going to be the guy to QB our new D, with him out of the picture having a veteran safety to call the shots becomes more important. I’m guessing that they are hoping Brown can stay healthy long enough to teach some of the young guys a thing or two and mentor Morgan.

The Good: Hiring Pioli and Haley, Drafting Tyson Jackson
The Bad: The Offensive Line Play
The Ugly: Thigpen Trying to Play QB

by KCporkchop on Sep 5, 2009 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

*great play of Mays

The Good: Hiring Pioli and Haley, Drafting Tyson Jackson
The Bad: The Offensive Line Play
The Ugly: Thigpen Trying to Play QB

by KCporkchop on Sep 5, 2009 8:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So how does this play out

We get to claim one youngster but everyone with 4 years exp is free game Now?

Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 5, 2009 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sort of

We get to claim as many youngsters as we want as long as the Lions or Rams don’t want them. KC will need to make a cut for every claimed player.

For players with more than 4 yrs, it’s a free for all. Whoever signs em, gets em.

by mushin on Sep 5, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 5, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are assuming the Copper will be on the roster come next week.

They will still have to cut a player for each one they add. Also, You’d actually keep a locker room cancer on the roster just so you could get a 7th round pick? I know it’s frustrating to lose a guy who was a decent player on a 2-14 squad for nothing but if he were worth something we would’ve gotten it.

by WesternChief on Sep 5, 2009 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If he is so valuable

Why is is Monday and he hasn’t been picked up? We’ve been binded by homerism.

Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.

by Zodeman on Sep 7, 2009 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We are (were) extremely deep at Safety. I don't know that we'll miss Pollard

Lelie however was the best deep threat this team had. To keep Copper and dump Lelie is ridiculously stupid IMO. I just lost faith in Haley as an evaluator of talent and as a smart person in general. Seriously, Copper fucking sucks and if we have to rely on him to save a game for us by making a big play, we will lose because he, is a loser…Period.

I thought a requirement of a WR was that you need to be able to catch. I guess thats the old NFL or something.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 5, 2009 8:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

With Haley's track record of developing WRs

you loose faith in him because he let Lelie go? And I hope that everyone soon realizes that Copper is not going to be on the final 53. He’s just keeping another player’s roster spot warm right now

by Fourstrike89 on Sep 5, 2009 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, I have lost faith...at the very least some.

Maybe we have only seen half the cards so far but, these have been some stupid fucking roster moves. Pollard being cut pisses me off but, Copper is the most horrendous wideout we have had since Samie Parker in fact, he’s worse than Samie. At least Parker would catch one out of ten balls that were thrown his way. Copper has dropped eveything that has been thrown at him. He is the Tyler Thigpen of Wide Receivers.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 5, 2009 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Being angry makes sense,

but losing all faith after cutting a guy that has also been cut by the Raiders and the Broncos in the past and hanging on to a temp wideout is a little out there. Especially being one week away from opening kick off and the waiver wires just opening up. Yeah, Copper sucks. But if we know that, don’t you think Haley does too?

by Fourstrike89 on Sep 5, 2009 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and lets try

too never mention S. Parker in a post ever again. :)

by Fourstrike89 on Sep 5, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you are just warming up a roster spot, wouldn't you do it with a guy who can play?

Seriously? I understand Haley’s background and that’s what makes this so frustrating.

Lelie was an upgrade to our receiver corps w/o a doubt. Yeah he has been on several teams but, they were shitty teams other than Denver and he got cut from there after an altercation w/management over his contract. He stretched the field better than anybody we have now and who will we replace him with? David Tyree? Dude’s not as good OR fast as Lelie. Our WR corps just went back to shit after we seemingly had some pretty good guy out there.

Terrence fuckin Copper…give me a break.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 5, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

First of all,

Copper is on very limited time right now, so enough with bad mouthing him as an argument. Yes he sucks! NO argument there. But whether they keep him, or Lelie, or sign some other dude off the street, it is still going to be Bowe, Bradley, and Engram as the top three. So you are essentially pissed off because of the 4th or 5th wideout spot on the team was not given to a guy who has had a lackluster career for many other teams and was a KC Chief for all of 3 weeks.

by Fourstrike89 on Sep 5, 2009 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Is Cooper playing special teams?

The TV is horrendous in showing who’s on the coverage team and it’s not like anyone outside the gunner has any stats worth mentioning. If so, could this be the reason they kept Copper over Lelie?

by mushin on Sep 5, 2009 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is exactly the reason

He was brought here as more of a ST guy than top flight receiver. He does everything the way they want it done. Except maybe catch passes as well as they would like. But at least he will run routes right and block every time.

Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.

by Zodeman on Sep 7, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Copper is still just an example

He is working his ass off and so the coach wants to keep him around for the rest of the team to see that busting butt pays. Eventually his lack of talent will catch up to him and we will make an exit.

All losses in the 2009 season will be Herm and Carls fault.

by Idahochief on Sep 5, 2009 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know how much credit you get to take

for supremely talented guys like TO and fitz and Boldin and keyshawn… it’s been in some pretty good situations in his career.

by callmesir on Sep 7, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

stupid move

brown has not proved to be durable. don’t like it. considering the other players that are still on the team, and not pollard-it is nothing short of baffling.

by KCWolfff on Sep 5, 2009 8:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Brown's football IQ is very high, can't say the same for Pollard.

Brown was a major player on the Bears Defense that went to the Super Bowl. Durability is a big question but placing Pollard on an all-pro / Pro-bowl, good player level is a little over the top. How many people said WTF when Petersen took Pollard in the second round? He wasn’t that highly rated and that’s another reason we’ve been in the basement the last few years.

by WesternChief on Sep 5, 2009 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Makes the new regime seem pretty stupid really. There is NO way this makes any sense.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 5, 2009 9:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I for one am not shocked

that any player left over from a 2 -14 team is cut. It takes a collective effort to be that bad in such a weak division.

by Fourstrike89 on Sep 5, 2009 9:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice perspective on the state of the NFL defenses

Rec

Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying

by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 5, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Depends on the scheme

Big safeties are very desirable in 4-3 schemes. Not so much in the 3-4.

Again, not surprised they didn’t keep Pollard because of the change in scheme. Surprised they didn’t try harder to get something for him.

http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com

by ChiefDJ on Sep 5, 2009 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We don't really.

We know that there were reports out there of him being shopped. Considering the tight lipped organization that can be read as Pioli was trying damn hard to find a taker.

But the other line of thought is that Haley wanted to make an example out of him. “There are no sacred cows.” I hope they didn’t cut him to make an example out of him. Its just childish.

Consistency is only a value if you are not a screw up.

by schraggyj on Sep 5, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Try harder in try for longer than a week

Just because nobody would give up something for him NOW doesn’t mean they wouldn’t in a couple weeks.

There are lots of guys on this roster that should have been cut long before they ever got to Pollard.

http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com

by ChiefDJ on Sep 5, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll agree with that.

Consistency is only a value if you are not a screw up.

by schraggyj on Sep 5, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You have no idea how long they tried.

Pioli has a way of keeping a lot of things quiet. (See Belicheck and the cutting of Alex Smith or O’Connell — nobody saw those cuts happening when they did).

by WesternChief on Sep 5, 2009 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You can't use that as a justification

You do not now that they did try harder, either. You are presenting a false argument.

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

Future Mrs. DTR

"64-bit Snow Leopard Awesomesauce...I haz it."

by DThomasReigns on Sep 5, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

*know

Moderator - Arrowhead Pride

Future Mrs. DTR

"64-bit Snow Leopard Awesomesauce...I haz it."

by DThomasReigns on Sep 5, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

As WesternChief pointed out though, the cut might have had to do with how Pollard would have reacted

If the Chiefs were just holding on to him to trade him there’s no way they keep that under wraps. If you don’t like the way he plays and you bench him, or don’t activate him while you try to find somebody to bite you have a potential locker room cancer on a team that is trying to change their attitude. If they were going to dump him and couldn’t find a taker for the trade, this was most likely the best thing to do

by mushin on Sep 5, 2009 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if I'm not allowed to speculate without getting blasted....

then no one else is allowed to either… ha… Again, I’ve never heard a negative thing about this guy till recently, and I have a hard time thinking he’d have a huge issue with playing special teams when he was a major special teams contributer his first two years on the team.

by callmesir on Sep 7, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not sure they are that valuable in any scheme now.

I am, however, like you surprised we didn’t get anything for him.

I heard the Bengal’s were also shopping a safety? Anybody heard anything else about other safeties on the open market?

Consistency is only a value if you are not a screw up.

by schraggyj on Sep 5, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let Gunther Cunningham use him like a LB.

Pollard’s the kind of ’tweener Cunningham seems to like on his teams.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Sep 5, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

agreed Westernchief

panic mode…. thats what we are good at. i think fit has to be the one of the most important aspects of evaluating a player. Does anyone really believe that if we traded for James harrison that he would even come close to his 16 sacks last year? I know, i know, he has better talent around him. But he was an undrafted free agent, he fits in perfectly with the steelers. His attitude, toughness, and his strengths all match up with pitt. needs and wants.

The chiefs are desperate for a cohesive unit. Pioli and haley have not waivered one bit from their statements before training camp started. the offseason has been filled with “we want players who play our way” statements. Piloi and haley are not weak individuals or pushovers like herm. They mean what they say. It’s not a code to crack. Your either in or your out. period.

by KC Masterpiece on Sep 6, 2009 1:37 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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