How The Chiefs Lost Focus In The Off-Season (And Why The Season Might Be Lost Because Of It)
by Matt Conner on Sep 28, 2009 2:23 PM CDT
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign
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PrintFootball is a team sport. And I wish the powers-that-be in the Chiefs organization would explain their personnel moves under this light.
Perhaps that seems a statement of the obvious sort, but I don't believe that's necessarily true. No other sport exhibits this truth as much as football (since hockey is not a real sport, as we all know). In basketball, you can win championships with one superstar and several other role players or marginal players who, at the very least, don't mess things up. Baseball is more individualistic than any of the majors. But football, you have to construct a team with the entire picture in mind.
I say this because it seems the Chiefs have lost sight of this. In baseball, a fire sale is perfectly okay - to blow the entire structure up and start over on the ground floor. You can start an entire roster of rookies, has-beens and question marks and you'll still uncover some gems and usable parts for the future. Someone will surprise you and play stellar defense, steal 20 bases or uncork 20 homers.
In other words, in baseball AND in basketball, you can have one good or great player and the lack of quality talent around that player doesn't necessarily change their ability to do their job to any great degree. Of course, a quality hitter behind Albert Pujols (like Matt Holiday) certainly helps him see better pitches, but the point is that he was Albert Pujols before Holiday arrived.
In football, the opposite is true. Every unit on the field affects every single other unit. You cannot add personnel at one position without thinking of what you'll do at every other spot on the field. You can't add a quarterback without making sure proper receiving outlets are in place and a offensive line is at least somewhat stable in front of him. You just can't. And if you attempt to do so, you will lose in the most embarrassing ways.
More after the jump...
So why did Scott Pioli and company believe this would be okay? How do you trade for your quarterback of the future, invest tens of millions in guaranteed cash, and then trade your primary receiving outlet - and best player - for a draft pick two drafts from now. I don't care if it sounds like the proverbial dead horse, the reality is that we're seeing the results of that now.
If Haley's main goal is to not have his quarterback hurt - which is what many are saying - then we were doomed from the outset. Football isn't a sport where you can blow things up, add one or two guys this year and then just wait for reinforcements and trade for future assets. Guys get hurt that way. Careers are ended that way. Players regress, morale is lost and a fan base becomes confused.
The bottom line is this: *IF* your plan is to acquire Matt Cassel and build around him, then you absolutely *have* to address the right side of the line and you *have* to keep Tony Gonzalez. Even if he wanted to go, you don't trade every player who murmurs. You have to think of the entire unit on the field, so if the offense is your focus, then you go that route.
And if our plan was to rebuild the defense, then we should have possibly kept Thigpen/Croyle and another FA quarterback off the street and used the second rounder on a LB or pass rusher of some kind. It's in that way that you consider the entire unit and how each affects the other.
Instead, we've added a couple decent options on each side and we're hoping that the glaring weaknesses on each side don't bring down the assets we've gained. Unfortunately, football is a team sport so we're seeing the fruit of that now - to the tune of an absolutely embarrassing early season.
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Not passing judgement after 3 games no matter how bad they were.
I still trust that they will get it right. I’ve always been one to say we needed to draft an OL 1st. Gonzalez trade is fine as far as I’m concerned. When he said there was a new sheriff in town and it is my way or the hiway he chose the hiway. If he can’t be part of the TEAM picture than good luck with your new team.
Do I think they are doing everything correct? Not bye any means, but I’m not giving up hope this early or even this year that they won’t get where they are heading.
I think the point is...
with this o-line we aren’t going anywhere. To completely ignore the obvious o-line problems was retarded.
In Pioli I Question.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Sep 28, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
ah, more silliness...
So here is my question/statement……
U have opportunites to fix certain elements of your team, but u know you cant fix them all. U notice that there is a great qb with potential to get better, hes mobile and smart, and hes a leader. So you trade for him because you dont want to miss the opp. too. Now, you realize your d is bad, and it all starts up front, so u draft high with those spots in mind. this fixes the issue. You trade someone who you know will retire for a future second, and start picking up your guys to help run your system (wade, vrabel, pendergast to name a couple.) you hope your mobile qb covers up some of the deficiences of the oline and gives you a year to help that spot. You dont lock up bad mediocre players at high prices because you know it solves nothing…..
I see no issues with what they have done. 3 games in and its all over? Give up? Just no patience from a fan base that needs to have some. Goes for the posters/commentators/admin on the site. Time must be given for this to work, we are doing it the right way, even if it looks rough. It will work, and this will look like a minor rough patch…
Chiefs FTW
by The_IT_Guy on Sep 28, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i agree, but
this is also what people were saying the last two years, as we dismantled the team to bring in young players and develop them. Patience is wearing thin. I actually believe that Pioli and Haley are doing things close to the right way, but it is very hard at this point to be patient. But then again, what choice do we have?? I really hope that they start winning some games by the end of the year, as the last of the schedule is much better.
You nailed it.
People have been saying this for 2 years, and now they have the group in here to do it.
Answer: first, you fix the O-line. That’s the most important facet of ANY offense. Even OK RBs can pick up some yardage if the holes are open. Even a mediocre NFL QB can find an open guy if he’s given enough time. Once you’ve got some protection, then you can see whether the “skill” talent you have needs improvement.
Putting a “great” QB behind a terrible line is like putting 22" alloys and a sparkly paint job on a Reliant K with a blown head gasket – that’s the wrong way. Pioli is not doing things the right way, he’s sacrificing QBs to save having to draft linemen. Your new mobile quarterback will only be mobile until his knee gets blown out. Wait, didn’t that already almost happen?
Seen a number of Heisman winners go bust and even get BLAMED for this sort of thing
Putting a "great" QB behind a terrible line is like putting 22" alloys and a sparkly paint job on a Reliant K with a blown head gasket
And I’d argue that Troy Aikman’s career was shortened (and his life after football affected) by this same cart-before-the-horse kind of move. But the tradition in the NFL is to start with the QB and improve the team around him. I think Rashan Salaam was a good player, who was broken down by beatings delivered by unblocked d-linemen. It’s the sort of thing you always see shitty teams do, either out of a wrong-headed team-building model or worse, just to fill seats.
The_IT_Guy (Is that Info-Tech or “IT” as in silent film star?) makes some decent points, but it’s hard to argue that you’re bringing in a 4th year player with 1 year of starting experience just to leave him on the bench.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I was thinking David Carr.
Dude set the NFL record for sacks in a season, right? Is there a job more certainly doomed to failure than “first starting QB for an NFL expansion team”? He would probably have been a decent QB if he’d ever been able to learn how to sit in the pocket. (I bet he literally soils himself if he hears “hut!” without expecting it, you know?)
The Chiefs did that during the 90s and had a QB by committee.
If Piloi thinks Cassell is the guy he was right to aquire him and keep him away from Denver.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
IT GUY
Have you considered moving to the land of Reality with us? We’d love to have you.
Very well put.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Sep 28, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Point well made--
If you have a decent O-line you have a chance to compete, without one you’re doomed. You can’t come from behind, you struggle to get points period, and even if you have a good defensive day they will get ground down from being on the field too much.
Some of u are clueless..weak options this year in free agency, 2-14 record last season…. Ever think maybe he tried and failed? Man I love this blog… But a few of u are unrealistic…
by Chieffan_Toby on Sep 28, 2009 4:31 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
There were great D-linemen as FAs
We could have kept a 4-3 and drafted for OL. Or kept the Arrowspread since the line is unimproved.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Sep 28, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Thank you.
I’m not sure what we would’ve done without you blessing us with that insight.
If you want to disagree, that’s fine. But, in doing so, state your case. Calling someone ‘silly’ serves absolutely no purpose and contributes nothing.
It's silly because the "Arrowspread" is a joke offense built for a limited-talent backup.
As far as keeping the 4-3, that argument can be made. I figure if they were going to make that transition they might as well do it now.
It’s possible that’s why they are calling this a hybrid for now, which is what this is, actually. Not a true 3-4, which we don’t have the personnel for.
Either way, this ridiculous meme that Thiggy and the pistol offense was worth a crap has go to go, no matter what cute names we tag it with.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
The craptacular line play
as much as anything else led to the use of a spread offense. I would submit that the line play has thus far not been any less craptacular.
With that offense I felt we could score often (and we did). I do not think the current offense has that ability.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Sep 28, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Why we ran it.
It wasn’t because it was what Thigpen could run (ie: ’a joke offense built for a limited-talent backup), it was because we had no O-line protection for the QB.
Starting in the pistol or the shotgun gave the QB anywhere from a 3- to 7-step advantage on the defenders, which gave him the protection and the time that our O-line couldn’t.
Last I checked, our O-line hasn’t improved — and, if anything, Albert’s and Waters’ play is actually declining a bit this year. “Joke offense” or not, I’m for doing whatever it takes to put points on the board and keep us competitive. Right now, unfortunately, it doesn’t seem like there’s much interest from the coaching staff in doing that.
Not sure it's any more silly
than what was done. Why do you think so?
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Sep 28, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I was thinking the same as you, NJ Chiefs Fan.
After TJackson and Magee in the draft, and looking at some game films from last year, I figured that was what they were thinking – Cassel could run Spread all day long; his mobility would give the Chiefs a guy who could run the spread like Thigpen; his accuracy would give the Chiefs a guy who could run the spread BETTER than Thigpen. And the Chiefs’ weaknesses on O-Line were very similar to those of last season’s Patriots.
And that might be the current thinking, with the elevation of O’Callaghan to starter. He’s known as a solid pass blocker, but not a great drive-blocker. That might also explain the elevation of O’Connell, who’s probably a better blocker than Cottam has shown himself to be.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
If we'd kept the 4-3, we'd STILL be trying to find decent DEs 2-deep.
And those kinds of players are TOUGH to find. And even using your #1 draft pick for one is no guarantee. The 3-4 DE we got has a higher probability of fulfilling his job description.
The one GOOD thing about just upgrading the front 4 would be McBride would still be a Chief (but Hali might not!?), and it would be a more natural evolution of things for the cover-2 secondary already in place. And there wouldn’t be quite as much premium on shut-down corner. They could just plug in DBs and run a mechanistic, by-the-numbers secondary.
I kinda prefer the current scenario (or near-future scenario) in which they just let the big men be big men, and let the other 8 guys make most of the plays. Donald Washington is the first (modest?) step in the direction I’d like to see the DBs go.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Thank you!
I made a post awhile back about this.
People are ridiculous to think that the only addition Pioli tried to make on the OL was Goff. Pioli isnt stupid..he wasnt just voted Executive of the DECADE for no reason.
The Chiefs were a 2-14 team. What do we have to offer to a FA? Not much. Playing in Arrowhead 8 times a year is about all we’ve got AND that experience isnt what it used to be considering we cant pack the stadium anymore. Thats all we have. That and money and Pioli isnt Al Davis. Hes not going to throw absurd amounts of money at players who clearly cant play. Cassel didnt sign a 100 million dollar contract like Rivers or Manning did. Cassel still has a big contract, but I think people tend to believe its more than what it actually is. Regardless, he was a 14 million dollar cap hit this season. If Cassel doesnt do well..most people are going to blame that on the OL (I think Cassel DOES have a problem holding the ball too long, but most of the time hes sacked its because nobody is open and nobody is blocking)
Next year will be Cassels judgement year. If he still falters, we’ll probably be looking to trade him for whatever we can to get rid of that contract. Hell, if Cassel bombs, we should send him to Oakland after Al Davis finally gives up on Jamarcus. ahahahha
Well
The Chiefs were a 2-14 team. What do we have to offer to a FA?
A starting job and a shitload of cap space for a big contract.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
For the bad players
that might seem good. But a good player (good players are what we need, no?) theyre going to be a starter wherever they go. So thats not really an incentive of coming to KC.
And like I said, We arent the Raiders. We’re not going to “buy” players to play for us. Like Haley and Pioli are doing, theyre getting guys who want to be here, not guys who want to collect a fat paycheck. Players should be paid based on their performance, not paid to not bitch about losing.
Sorry, But I Don't Buy That "Players Would Never Want To Play In KC" Line
And if Pioli and Haley can’t convince good players to come here, why would we think Pioli and Haley are the right people for the job anyway? Hell, Pioli’s success in New England was largely tied to free agents…in fact, his success the last three years there was almost exclusively free agents (because his drafts were terrible). So if he can’t convince good (not necessarily great, but good) free agents to come here to at the very least supplement drafted players, what good is he?
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Apparently
you read too deep into what I meant by that. I’m not saying players would NEVER want to play in KC. I’m saying there are more factors. Some guys want to go to a winning team. Some guys want to go wherever is warm. Some guys want outrageous contracts. There are 31 other teams in the league that we compete with. Do you think we should get every FA we want? Thats unrealistic.
If I were a good player, and a free agent, why would I choose to go to a losing team thats rebuilding, when I could go to a team thats a favorite to make it to the playoffs? If I’m going to be a starter regardless, the next thing I want is to WIN. Its TOUGH to get FA’s to a losing team and generally has some sort of reasoning behind it. Whether its the contract, the location, or something personal (for instance, Larry Foote went to Detroit bc its his hometown or something), the front office, or the coaching staff, there is GENERALLY a reason for a FA to go to a team that loses as much as we do.
Let me put it this way. If players WANTED to come to KC, dont you think Pioli would have gotten them? I dont think the “Executive of the Decade” or whatever he was named would be that stupid to pass up on a good C/RG/RT.
Uh. They'll definitely get where they're heading.
But I know whatcha meant, Helmets. ;o/
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
In the words of James Hetfield
Sad but true.
biggest offseason moves were to Invest $60M in the QB and switch to the 3-4 yet they draft no O-linemen or linebackers. Sigh.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 2:34 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
$60M
I am so sick of these comments about how we invested $60M. Cassel only gets 60M if he meets all the incentives. If he doesn’t meet the incentives it is around the $38M mark. Would you have rather paid him $15M this season and end up paying him more on a no cap year? Player contracts are going to continue to rise. I htink we got a steal in Cassel. If we can get him an O-line in the next year or two he will be a Pro Bowl QB. The guy doesn’t look bad playing with 0 sec to throw. Imagine if we give him some time in the pocket. Your probably one of those guys who wishes we would have drafted Sanchez.
by groundedchevy on Sep 28, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Whoa, settle down there buddy
All i said was signing a Quarterback for $60M or $38 or whatever then ignoring the O-Line is like buying a new Audi R8 then driving around drunk without insurance. What the hell does Sanchez have do do with anything?
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
he has a valid point. These contracts rarely go to the full amount.
It’s a good contract for a proven starting QB.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
For the 3rd and final time
I never poo-poo’ed the contract. I poo-pooed the fundamental problem of paying him that amount of money and then not giving him the time to succeed with a bunch of FA scrubs and 3rd string Miami Dolphins.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
That's just not true, craig!
I think one of ’em was 4th string.
The one thing that makes a lotta sense with these O-Line moves, though, was these “dregs” they picked up were from teams that were looking at a lot of players for their right sides, and so there was a decent shot at getting a decent player, and I think Pioli has a good relationship with both those front offices.
This is something I tend to forget to factor in or to mention in this post-Peterson era, and that is, despite the “Don Pioli” moniker, I get a very strong sense that Pioli is a square dealer, and over time will probably benefit more from the transactions he makes than Peterson, who always seemed to want too much, and be willing to stick it to somebody, if he could get away with it. I get a definite “enlightened self-interest” feeling from Pioli, and part of his winning formula is generating good will.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Man...
you only get 7 draft picks a year. Pioli understands that defense wins championships and he laid the first stone with a good prospect in Tyson Jackson. Drafting a right tackle 3 overall would have been the retarded move. The best offensive lineman in this years draft seems to be Micheal Oher. I think he is a great right tackle, but he would be mediocre on the other side of the line. Pioli will have this line fixed come next season. He knows what he has to do and he will get it done. However, he has a far better perspective in that he has a long term plan.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Sep 28, 2009 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Keeping TG was not the answer.
I guess if the overall goal was to be just below average it would have been okay, or to keep the score closer. He wanted to leave, we got a draft pick (instead of nothing), and the Hunts paid him back by getting him a chance at a title. He was not going to be a difference maker on this team.
You get your QB when you can. They felt Cassel was the man they wanted and moved. To improve the line, they needed to have quality O-lineman who were available AND who wanted to sign with KC. A lot of variables. Add to that the fact that the new regime was put in place after the best FA’s were signed, and we were left with a stiinking mess. The coaches didn’t even know what they had until the draft rolled around.
Defense has been a weakness for years. Drafting those players was an easy call. We have complained for years that we could score, but couldn’t stop anyone. Gotta start somewhere and they chose the D (with the exception of Cassel). I suspect they will bring in a few choice FA o-lineman during the next FA period and draft a couple.
I remember Dawson to Taylor, Kenney to Carson, and Blackledge catching the snap in his facemask. Seen it all...
agreed
when Cassel was available, they had to move on him.
when they got a good offer for TG, they had to take it.
no one could argue that the defense needed upgrades, and they did that (to a certain extent)
They tried a couple of OL upgrades (drafting Brown, signing Goff) but neither has worked out to date.
They brought in 3 other new OL (Ndukwe, Alleman, O’Callaghan) and the jury is still out on all 3. You can’t say that none of these guys are good enough, because they simply haven’t had enough of a chance to play yet.
Offensive lines aren’t fixed overnight.
There were moves made, but they have yet to pay off.
That doesn’t mean that they won’t pan out.. they just haven’t YET.
Until they do, it may be painful.
It’s incorrect to say that Pioli did NOTHING to upgrade the OL… he did plenty… it just hasn’t worked YET.
Should he have made a bigger move, or moved sooner? probably.
But, he didn’t ignore the OL.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Offensive lines aren’t fixed overnight.
No, but how many nights are they going to wait? Besides drafting Albert, there has been zero drafts/aquisitions the past 5 years to address the O-line so how can anyone be suprised the line is horrible?
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Colin Brown?
I think he was drafted last year. You can’t draft an entire team in one draft.
I remember Dawson to Taylor, Kenney to Carson, and Blackledge catching the snap in his facemask. Seen it all...
He Was Drafted This Year
And now he’s on IR.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I meant last draft.
Being on IR has no relevance to the point that they didn’t attempt to address the problem. We used one of our draft picks on the OL. We have many holes. To say they haven’t addressed the OL is incorrect. Players haven’t worked out, but they have attempted to fix it.
I remember Dawson to Taylor, Kenney to Carson, and Blackledge catching the snap in his facemask. Seen it all...
He Was A Second Day Pick
That’s not really trying to address the o-line.
Neither is making no apparent attempt to sign Jason Brown or Derrick Dockery (both of whom are better than what they have at C and RG right now).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Our starting safety is a second day pick.
As far as Brown and Dockery go, you make the same assumption as most people, that 1) we didn’t try to sign them, and 2) they were interested in coming to a rebuilding team.
I remember Dawson to Taylor, Kenney to Carson, and Blackledge catching the snap in his facemask. Seen it all...
That's irrelevant
Players drafted in the 5th round are expected to be average players at best. If you are
drafting a person that position is typically nit considered a priority.
Obviously there are exceptions, but they are just that exceptions.
Check out my blog on software development:
http://www.turnleafdesign.com/
by Scaryclouds on Sep 28, 2009 4:37 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Dockery...
is an overrated piece of crap of player that the redskins overpaid. Look where that has gotten them. They bought fucking Haynesworth for 100M dollars and they lost to the Lions. Its so easy to say spend, spend, spend. Jason Brown was made the highest paid center in the league. Are you telling me that Jason Brown is the best center in the league? The Rams just like us are 0 and 3. The offensive line is going take more than just a high draft pick and a high dollar FA signing. It needs to be fundamentally transformed and I guarantee you Pioli will get the job done.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Sep 28, 2009 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I'll Say Brown Is One Of The Better Centers In The League
And is a lot better than Niswanger.
As for the Rams, their problems stem from Marc Bulger being washed up for three years and the team having no receivers.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
there did attempt to address it... it wasn't ignored
the new additions just haven’t panned out YET
They tried a couple of OL upgrades (drafting Brown, signing Goff) but neither has worked out to date.
They brought in 3 other new OL (Ndukwe, Alleman, O’Callaghan) and the jury is still out on all 3. You can’t say that none of these guys are good enough, because they simply haven’t had enough of a chance to play yet.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
I don't consider signing free agent scrubs or 3rd string Dolphins addressing anything.
NFL teams are built through the draft. I didn’t like it this spring, and I hate it now.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
This isn't all Pioli's fault
Pioli has been here for one off-season and one draft. O-Line has been the problem of the Chiefs for the past three seasons and the old management and coaching made one move towards helping the O-line= Branden Albert.
Good start but a little too late. Pioli took over when everything was already in shreds. Saying that Pioli blew everything up, look at the key players lost.
Tony G- Debate that will go on until he retires or the Chiefs use that draft pick.
Pollard- No one picked him up until the Texans had injuries at Safety to take a look at him.
Really, the only move that anyone can say that we gave away talent was Jared Allen. Peterson move. Peterson also had a chance to trade Larry Johhson for multiple picks. Instead Peterson re-signed him. The only questionable move Pioli has made all off-season was choosing Haley as head coach, but everyone saw the potential in Haley and no one should pass judgment on him after just three games. Give Pioli more time than three games into the season.
by theaxeeffect4721 on Sep 28, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Makes me wonder
Who is our HC if Arizona doesn’t go on that Cinderella run last year?
That Kirk Ferentz guy looks like a damn good football coach…what ever happened to him? I thought him in Pioli were BFF’s?
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I was actually wondered why I did not see Leslie Frazier on any of the rumors for interviewing HC in KC. You know, if we are talking about first time head coaches because that seems to be the fad in football right now. Don’t hire someone who has already done it before.
by theaxeeffect4721 on Sep 28, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought he did interview and was the required minority candidate?
I also thought he is still the DC for the Vikings?
I remember Dawson to Taylor, Kenney to Carson, and Blackledge catching the snap in his facemask. Seen it all...
I hate the Rooney Rule
What an insult it is to a tallent like Frazier that all he was, was a token black candidate.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree. Stupid rule. Demeans coaching prospects.
I remember Dawson to Taylor, Kenney to Carson, and Blackledge catching the snap in his facemask. Seen it all...
Bring on Bill Cowher.
HE’s the guy we need. I don’t give a shit what they do with Haley after that fiasco yesterday. Maybe Pioli will bring in some of his wiseguys to take Haley ’for a ride".
by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 28, 2009 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Because Retread Head Coaches Always Do So Great at Their 2nd Stop
Oh wait….I’ll see if I can find the stats on a coach at their second stop reaching/winning the Super Bowl.
Overreactions are just that. You sir might as well get into hookers and crack because the Mayan Calendar ends on Dec 21, 2012 and the world ends. I’m sure Chicken Little has just seen the sky fall.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Bill Belichick
I've contracted a particularly virulent form of the R2D2 asshat virus. Please wash eyeballs & keyboard after contact.
by chiefstatnut on Sep 28, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Mike Shananhan
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Sep 28, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Would you consider Shanahan a re-tread? I mean Oakland doesn’t really count. Dungy yes, Vermeil yes, Belichick yes, and let’s now review the nos. I’ll see if I can some stats/list.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Tom Coughlin
just to name a few off the top of my head. Im sure theres more
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Sep 28, 2009 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok I need to Qualify My Comment on Re-treads
Re-treads that won a Super Bowl at their previous stop. The stats on those guys even making it back to the Super Bowl are sooo low. Holmgren, Vermeil….did I miss one?
I’m sorry my first post wasnt more specific.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
You, my friend, are a moron
You do realize how long it took Cowher to win a Super Bowl or create a respectable team right?… You people want to run Haley/Pioli out of town after 3 games and inheriting a god-awful team.
You realize in his first 6 season he won...
11, 9, 12, 11, 10, 11 games? Doesn’t seem like it took him long.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Sep 28, 2009 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions
oh, but that's like just, you know ... going to the playoffs year after year
not actually winning championships, you know, that kind of stuff
sheeeeesh, get on board, willya
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
haha oh yea i forgot...
theres only 1 respectable team per year….the team that wins the SB….all others are failures.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Sep 28, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Different strokes, I suppose
But I’m not happy with winning 9,10,13 games a year and getting knocked out of the playoffs in the first round. Thats what we should aspire too? Really?
It would make you happy to win 12 games this year in our cupcake division, only to get embarrassed? Really?
I would be positively elated if won 12 games and the division
win or lose in the playoff – but het, you have to GET there first, right? right!
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Yes,
But if you don’t have a complete team, all of your success will have been a mirage…which is what it was in the late 90’s and 2000’s with great teams and no balls in the playoffs. we were the perfect definition of underachievers.
considering what these guys are getting paid, I'd say THEY'RE the underachievers
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Big deal. A winning team that wins 10 games a season at least gives us a chance in the playoffs then maybe you get lucky like the Giants. I do not know of one head coach who is considered a great playoff coach. There are coaches who lead their teams every year to the playoffs and lose. Does that make them bad coaches?
by theaxeeffect4721 on Sep 28, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
You know, at this point ...
I’d be alright with consistently making it to the playoffs and failing there.
I mean, sure, it might be a “mirage.”
But I’d take a mirage that’s helluva lot more fun to watch and cheer for than the cesspool of a performance we put on in Philly week in and week out.
And Here's The Thing
What makes anyone think that losing is automatically going to lead to a Super Bowl winner?
Most of the time, when teams lose as much as the Chiefs have the last three years, that just leads to more losing. Where are the signs that there’s actually progress being made? Because aside from changing QBs and some players, I don’t see any change in the results. The team looks just as hopeless and poorly coached as it did last year.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Or To Quote Despair.Com
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Ferentz...
is happy in Iowa. His son is playing there. He wasn’t going to leave that program. I’m so sick of you guys questioning whether Haley was a good hire three games into a freaking season. My eyeballs are going to pop out of my head. All of you are bunch of ignorant whiners who have never had a job in football, coached, or probably even played football at a high level.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Sep 28, 2009 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I’ve never played Pro QB either, but I can still tell you JaMarcus Russell is one of the worst to ever take the field (right up there with Ryan Leaf).
Sometimes you can take a look at something (like, say, how someone is performing at their job), compare it to something similar, and make a determination if it’s better or worse.
That doesn’t take personaly experience. That just takes the ability to honestly assess a situation. I don’t have to have been a pro coach to tell you that, right now, what Haley has put together here is actually starting to look worse than what Herm Edwards put together here and he damn sure wasn’t hired to come in and be worse.
Rec
You hit the nail on the head IMO. Moving Tony for a pick next year tells me they didn’t believe we could contend this season. Who cares if he wanted to go, this is business.
So...
they were planning for the future? I am down with that. It is a new regime, and I feel it will take some time to see the fruits of their decisions.
Do you...
think it was possible to put a superbowl contending team on the field this year? This team is too freaking young to expect they will become something completely different overnight. Tony was a 33 year old TE, mind you greatest of all time, who doesn’t fit in the long term plans. If I have a 33+ vet that doesn’t fit into the long term plans and I’m offered a 2nd rounder for him, I am freaking taking it.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Sep 28, 2009 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Absolutely Nailed It
That was my impression of the Chiefs’ offseason…patchwork additions without a lot of building blocks for the future. I liked the Cassel trade, but I don’t get their reasoning behind not supporting him. Tyson Jackson’s probably going to be a fine player, but he was a reach and Curry, Monroe, Raji or even Oher would have been a much better choice. Or if they had to have Jackson, why not go after the o-line FAs who were available? There were several out there
It’s like you said, Matt…you can’t just add bits and pieces and hope someday it all falls into place if you’re lucky.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Oher looks like a stud
How come “other teams rookies” can step up and have dominant Rookie seasons but when Chiefs’ rookies struggle they claim its the “Rookie Learning Curve”?
Hindsight is 20/20, but Oher would have been a great 3rd pick…he would be a reach, but so was TJ.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Tyson Jackson wasnt much of a reach...
If we don’t take him then Green Bay or Denver do for sure.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 28, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
And More Importantly
Oher would have helped keep Cassel upright and maybe helped him to succeed.
As for why Chiefs’ rookies don’t develop, under Peterson I think it was mainly poor player selection. Also his last coach did him no favors on getting the most talent out of those guys…most of the young players saw their development stagnate.
It’s still early for the Pioli/Haley players, but if they don’t develop I think that it’s fair to question why they can’t get better performances out of the guys who were already here. I don’t think Carr, Flowers, and Albert are bad players (but they’ve sure looked like it).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
The DBs aren't a good fit for anything other than Tampon-2.
Much as I like to criticize Pendergast, he’s actually shown more courage in trying to get the CBs we have to play the way they should. But yeah, they don’t seem to fit the current scheme/philosophy.
This team is built to blitz, except for the apparent lack of any 1-on-1 coverage ability.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Flowers...
is still looking like a stud with the exception of the dropped INT.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Sep 28, 2009 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Oher was the 4the best OL in the Draft!
Just becuase he looks the best so far doesnt mean that he was EVEN close to being selected with the 3rd pick! We would have looked worse than the Raiders.
Also you have to look at where you put Albert then. He isnt a RT in the NFL! LG and Waters to C? I could see that but you never know!
by flyin_squirl on Sep 28, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Only because LT's are considered more valuable.
And Monroe, et. al. were projecting as true LTs (mostly).
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Oher is playing...
on the right side of the offensive line in Baltimore. You make him seem like he’s freaking Jonathan Ogden all of sudden. In fact, none of you can name me an offensive tackle taken this year that is starting at left tackle currently and excelling! Raji hasn’t cracked the lineup in Greenbay yet! Curry would of been one hell of an ILB in our 3-4 system.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Sep 28, 2009 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions
So You're Saying
That Oher wouldn’t have been a major upgrade over what we have at RT? Because he pretty clearly would have been…in fact he might have been an upgrade this year over what we have at LT.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
No, No, No...
drafting a right tackle 3 overall is stupid. You don’t have many opportunities to get highly talented players. For the sake of argument since they are both still young prospects. Would you rather have Ty Warren or John Runyan (in his prime) on your team? For me, it is a no brainer. I’m taking Warren in a heartbeat because his skills and talent level is far more rare in the NFL.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Sep 28, 2009 11:12 PM CDT up reply actions
You Know What's Even Dumber?
Paying $60 million to a QB who led the league in sacks last year because of his propensity to hang onto the ball and putting no protection around him.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
May seem dumb...
right now, but when he is lighting it up in year 2, 3, 4, and 5 it will be genius. I was impressed with Cassel last year. He had a few “moments”. That freaking Jets game when he won it at the end of the game. He threw it on his back leg under pressure, a straight laser beam to Moss. I like this kid. We were joined at the hips with him when we traded the 2nd round pick. I mean, what do we do after this offseason? Let him walk? Get in a bidding war? Franchise him again? You let your QB know that he is your guy and the guy you want. We saw him start 15 games. When you draft a QB in the first round you get to seem them for zero games!
by I_Bleed_Red. on Sep 28, 2009 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions
If The Chiefs Don't Seriously Bolster That Line
He won’t be functional for five years.
And I think you’re misinterpreting my point. I wasn’t bagging on Cassel. Heck, I loved the Cassel trade. It was Pioli not fixing the o-line that I hated.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Really?
Curry is a 4-3 LB at best and isnt exactly proving to be the “stud” everyone made him out to be, Monroe is getting eaten alive in Jacksonville and Raji can’t cut it at NT and can’t even hold down a DE job in a 3-4. Jackson wasn’t that much of a reach because Green Bay would’ve taken him or Denver if GB passes.
In the first offseason where you’re replacing 31 players sometimes you have to settle for bits here and there because of whats available. Cassel was available so they got him because thats the QB they wanted. This offseason wasn’t exactly rich in OL to fit around him.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 28, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Building blocks for the future?
2 d-line, 1 o-line, a CB, a QB of the future with their first 5 picks. Plus a kicker with the irrelevant pick. All seem like building blocks (except maybe kicker, who’s barely a football player).
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
1) Maybe they did not know how bad some of the players were.
2) They got a late start. If I remember correctly, Pioli and Haley were the last GM and coaches hired. That makes it hard. Maybe some of the problems are due to some of the assistant coaches.
3) It takes time and it’s not fair to be second guessing at this point. No mater what they have done or do, they are always going to be second guessed.
That's Still Their Job To Know How Good Or Bad Those Players Were
They’re the ones who are supposed to be the experts at divining talent and figuring out how it fits together. Pioli was a late hire, but he still had months before the draft to do his due diligence, so he doesn’t get a pass on not upgrading.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
They could have read any Chiefs blog and known how shitty the line was.
That or maybe watched some film from last year…?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Sep 28, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
it was at A position that needed a huge upgrade...
it just wasn’t the ONLY position that needed it.
IF they wanted to win THIS year, they would have traded back into the 1st or 2nd and drafted an OT
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
I think that's why I was so pissed, yesterday.
It just became crystal clear that they weren’t really serious about this season. You knew the situation was hopeless by or before halftime. Hope my moment of clarity was bullshit, but that’s what really got my goat, watching all the guys who did NOT fit what they were trying to do, on offense or defense.
Sure, ya wanna run the pro set, Haley, but the only chance this team has short-term is the spread.
But the one guy I’ve been MOST critical of is Pendergast, and the more I reflect on what we’ve been seeing, the more I get the sense that he’s trying to get SOMEthing to work. That 64-yard TD had EXACTLY the right call in, like Pendergast KNEW where that ball was going. The LB and DB just didn’t execute it, even though the DB channelled the WR toward the LB and the LB, with no hesitation, went to break up that pass the instant the ball was snapped. Failure in execution, but not in concept.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
... although I'd want my corner to make it more of a struggle to get to the middle.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Yep
I’d said a few times that the pressure was off this year. It certainly seems to me that they’re taking that sentiment to heart. Long run, drafting for the 3-4 D-line will probably produce, but it was done as a major sacrifice to the W-column this year.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
and...
FA that were not good enough to be a drastic upgrade
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Still, with all that cap room,
takin’ a flyer on MORE FA OLs than they DID would’ve made me feel better, the last few weeks.
Seeing the problems AND seeing the unspent $$$ floating around and I can’t help but feel they should’ve been more aggressive.
I was (and still am) willing to give ‘em the push, if I had seen (get to see) a real upgrade, because I figured that all things being equal, Cassel could put up points if that occurred, projecting from Thigpen’s success. If things go on the up-tick, now that the GREAT front 7’s are in the rearview, maybe I’ll actually regain my sunny disposition. After a great Game 1, I’m not sure I’d rank Oakland’s among the great front 7’s going, and I think the Chiefs will match up pretty well against the rest of the division. Only team I’m not totally certain of is the Broncos, who are generating a lot more pressure and playing better defense (and offense) than I projected.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Speaking of "due diligence," UC, it's not like Pioli wasn't doing talent searches
as head of NWE personnel. He just needed to tweak his priorities, or should I say ’Piolities," when he got the new job.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Damn Skippy
That’s why he was hired…because he was supposed to already be able to judge the talent that was out there and assemble a team. So far, though, I’ve seen a guy who hasn’t been much better than Peterson. That o-line neglect of his irritates me more and more the longer the season goes on.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
It's more than just the players, though
I remember the talk around the “Forgotten Five”, and how it was emphasized that the stability of that O-line was one of the reasons they were an elite unit.
It also doesn’t help that Haley fired Gailey when he did – I suspect that’s a major factor in play here.
But sure, it’s not hard to see that the new regime didn’t hit the ground running. Pioli probably could have played safer by bringing in an experienced head coach to cover his ass while he was getting up to speed as GM, et cetera.
Trouble is, it’s the hand we’ve got, now. I don’t see anything earth-shattering that can be done to improve things, at least during the season.
Cassel vs. Thigpen in Camp should improve the play of both.
Linebackers: looking better
D-lineL slight improvement
O-line: WTF?!?
by Bleedingredandgold on Sep 28, 2009 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
There's Not Much The Chiefs Can Do Now For Bringing In Personnel
But the Chiefs also look really poorly coached and Haley’s playcalling in the second half looked an awful lot like he was throwing the game to make some kind of point to the team. And if that’s what he was doing, and if he does it again, I think Pioli definitely needs to make coaching changes next year because a coach like that, who puts his personal pissing contests over trying to win the game and who can’t get along with competent subordinates, is not somebody who needs to be coaching in Kansas City.
This isn’t college…nobody cares about “building character” and his only job here is to win football games. If that’s not his top priority at all times, then he’s a crap coach.
I completely agree with you about line stability by the way (although I think with the Chiefs it’s also a big question of talent…outside of Waters and Albert I don’t think the Chiefs have any).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Guess I wasn't clear
about stability. Specifically, that the reverse is also true – instability has a negative effect.
I won’t claim stellar talent here, what I’m saying is that the musical-chairs approach is making all of them look worse than they are.
As for coaching, it’s beginning to look like Pioli didn’t do himself any favors by elevating an inexperienced HC his first season as a GM.
Cassel vs. Thigpen in Camp should improve the play of both.
Linebackers: looking better
D-lineL slight improvement
O-line: WTF?!?
by Bleedingredandgold on Sep 28, 2009 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Careful UC
you’re flirting with that Cowher bandwagon there ;)
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
I'd Rather Have Cowher Than Haley
I’ll say that now. Even though I think Cowher was overrated his last few years in the league.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I'll say this
If the Chiefs only win 2 or 3 games this year, I’ll be screaming bloody murder for Haley’s pink-slip.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
I Won't Be Calling For Haley's Head If They Win Three...Or Even Two Or One
If they go 0 for the season, though, his useless ass had better be on the way out…along with Pioli’s.
Nobody deserves to survive an 0-16 season.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Although
If I see him quit on another game like he did against Philadelphia, my beliefs on that will change very quickly.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Sorry.....
but you can’t fix all the problems this team had in one offseason. Just not possible. Come on guys…..we need to stop railing on our new head coach and GM, I will take what these guys give me over what we have had in the past.
Tell that to Baltimore, Atlanta, Miami etc etc etc
It does not take 3 years to rebuild a football team.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
The Miami argument
is stale. Everyone keeps bringing it up. Miami is 0-3. Last year they had a historically easy schedule. Miami won the AFC East but only after the Patriots were without Tom Brady and the Jets collapsed and ended up with an injured Brett Favre. The Dolphins did not beat a single team outside their division with a winning record. Five of their wins were against teams with top-10 draft picks. Eight of them were against teams with top 12-picks. They faced three playoff teams and went 1-3 (lost to the Ravens twice, including the playoffs). All three losses were by two touchdowns or more. In other words, they beat the bad teams and lost to the good ones.
Perhaps Miami isn’t exactly the miracle 1 season turn around that everyone keeps saying the Chiefs need to emulate. What Miami did last year DOESN’T happen on a regular basis. We need to relax.
by LClarkson on Sep 28, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe so
But they had a freaking 10 win turnaround in one offseason. I don’t care if they are playing the Winnipeg Bluebombers, that is a remarkable turnaround. Everyone here keeps saying it takes years to turn it around and I gave you 3 examples in the past couple of years of terrible teams who made the playoffs following a disasterous year.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
ahh the old "just make the playoffs and see what happens"
argument. Herm? Is that you? The idea isn’t to make the playoffs because of some miracle turn around. The idea is to make the playoffs and win playoff games consistently.
Or Vermeil
taking us to the playoffs with a 13-3 team with a nearly-league-worst defense. By the time we played good defensive teams, it showed the emperor had no clothes…
You're really buggerin' the discussion with all your fancy-schmancy facts, LClarkson.
The Miami argument
is stale.
Wrecked. Looks pretty encyclopaedic – like you’ve just been WAITIN’ ta lay this one down.
The planets do have to align, somewhat, but fact is Miami won the games they were supposed to win, and the fact that 3 teams are at the tip of our tongues as examples of fantastic turnarounds says it CAN happen. The fact is that the rules of the NFL are made to keep teams in the 10-6, 6-10 window, so we’re all a little disappointed to see that we’ll be lucky to hit that window…
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Uhhh. You might be new, here...
I just want you to know that “Wrecked” means I LIKED your post, and recommended it. I’ve been misunderstood with this kind of thing, before.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I agree
on the bright side at least JaMarcus Russell is not our quarterback. Give the new regime some more time. It will take more than one offseason and three games to break two solid years of being a loser.
.
It's Not That
but you can’t fix all the problems this team had in one offseason.
It’s that they don’t appear to have fixed any of the problems from last year and in some situations (handling the offense) made them worse.
I never expected a playoff performance from this team. I do expect them to get markedly better than 2-14 and right now they don’t look like a team that can do that. If anything, they actually look worse than last year.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Thats quite the judgement call..
After three games where they played two of the top five teams in the league. If you didnt expect playoff bound performance from this team how do you then judge that they arent better then last year when they played two teams who are clearly playoff contenders.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 28, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Assume that was directed at me.
I’m refering to the 1-15 Miami team that won the AFC East last year.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Schedule is not the reason...to win the superbowl you have to be able to beat anyone
here we go again with excuses. I don’t want a team that only has a good season because they play only crap teams. I want a Patriots type dynasty. What the hell are we saying if we’re ok with all we want this year is a team that plays crappy teams so we can win by default because everyone we play sucks worse than us.
That’s no way to view things. We should be able to play against anyone anywhere at anytime. Great teams don’t make excuses and hide behind schedules. That’s pathetic. I don’t want to win that way. Then we’ll just be Miami next year again.
Wouldn’t it be nice to be like the Steelers or Pats?? Or even the Ravens…EVERY year you have a chance. Man no way am I settling for a team that can only win against other pathetic teams. That’s a silly thing to say. I don’t care who we play…we’re either good or we’re not. It shouldn’t be about schedule…
What about teams in Divisions that are tough every year?? Do you only want to be a playoff contender because our division sucks so bad that we lose the first round of playoffs every year?? Aren’t you guys sick of that already?? How many more years of that crap are we gonna tolerate??
Missing the point
I don’t think anyone is saying we should play a crappy schedule. The point I was poorly making is that with a virtually new team, it would have been ideal to start off the season with an easier crop of games. There are very few bad teams in the NFL, so sooner or later we have to beat or be competitive with good teams. I just wish it had been later as opposed to sooner; things might have been different. Nothing motivates like winning, and nothing destroys a team like losing.
Did you Ever See Vermeil's Stats On This?
This isn’t verbatim but basically schedule DOES matter…big time. Basically even good teams will go .500 against playoff calibre talent and win most of the rest. If you get too many playoff calibre teams on your schedule guess what?
You dont make the playoffs. I wish I could recall the post that shows all the work Vermeil put into that but he had stats for all the years of the NFL to back that up. Schedule DOES matter. If you think not ask the 2009 Chiefs how the taste of Baltimore and the NFC East tastes right now.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Makes Sense
I never saw that but it intuitively makes sense. As a coach it would make my job a lot easier to start off with some cup cakes and build some confidence. Getting hammered out of the box is something a veteran team can overcome, but isn’t something a team already reeling from years of losing can deal with. That’s why bringing in veterans like Vrabel is so important to this team. If anything makes a difference this year, I think it will be having the proper leadership on the field to get some late season wins.
The Denver Analogy is Perfect
They are 3-0 and have played 1 team even worth its salt and that was against a Rusty Carson Palmer….I think Palmer as we saw him vs Pitt would have been a different game.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm reserving judgement on Denver until I see more.
I’m thinking that Cincy’s offensive struggles against them weren’t just Carson Palmer’s ring rust.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
The Bengals Had That Game Won, Though
They defended the final pass play and the ball just took a freakish bounce into Stokely’s hands for an 80 yard score.
What I’ve seen from Denver so far, though, is a decent defense and a middling offense with a good running game but subpar QB play. They look for all the world like an 8-8 team.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
We'll see.
I’m thinking that they’re going to lose their next 8 and I doubt that they win 5 in a row to close out the season.
Good Point
Would our opinion be different if we started out with Denver’s schedule? I sure would have liked to get a shot at Cincinnati and Cleveland instead of Baltimore and Philly in the first 3 weeks with this new team. Maybe we’d be 2-1 instead of 0-3 and the tone here would be very different.
Not much point in dealing with what if’s, but did anyone think we would be anything better than 1-2 at this point in the season with our schedule? A terrible showing with Oakland where we still should have won is the only reason we are 0-3 right now. I totally expected to lose to Philly and probably could have guessed it would be a bad loss.
I Don't Think We'd Beat Cincinnati
If it hadn’t been for that fluke bounce at the end of the Denver game, Cincinnati would be 3-0 right now. They’ve got a pretty good defense and a solid offense.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Probably Not
I had actually assumed we lost to Cinci in my totally hypothetical and groundless opinion. I had figured if we had managed to beat Cleveland early we would have built enough team confidence to easily beat Oakland (like we should have done with our actual schedule). Making up what might have happened is a lot more fun that dealing with stupid reality.
lol your awesome mis21...agreed
let’s just pretend Cassel has been great and we’re 3-0. Our defense is the best in the league and our offensive line has made all our running backs look amazing. The price of hot dogs at games will go down to $1 and while we’re at it…beer will be 25 cents.
Quarter Draw
Quarter draw day at Arrowhead would probably eliminate the threat of a TV blackout. I’m sure most of the opinions stated here would then be voiced directly to the players and coaching staff at the game as opposed to these message boards.
Miami may not even make .500 this year so last year was mostly due to their schedue.
I’ll bet the Chief’s do a lot better next year……..because they won’t be playing this schedule.
I just don't like that argument
They won a VERY good AFC East with 11 wins. Its not like getting 8 wins and winning one of the western divisions.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
You don't really have to like it.
But that doesn’t make it any less true.
Yes, they won the AFC East. However, you can’t argue that they didn’t have an easy schedule and that that schedule wasn’t further aided by the Patriots losing Brady and the Jets late season collapse.
You can split hairs on this, but I think y'all are spinnin' yer wheels @ this point...
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Absolutely
and there are no excuses for our record and piss poor play. If Mark Sanchez can play at that level with a new head coach so could we. If Stafford can win a game with the Lions why can’t we? It’s because of what you just said. We didn’t build a solid “TEAM”.
Sanchez didn't inherit a losing franchise.
He joined a franchise that was pissed off at missing the playoffs. Lots of pieces in place. Biggest “issue” was a whiny RB coming off a strong year. They got Buddy – I mean Rex – Ryan, and he inherited some great talent for Ryan-style defense.
I will grant, though, that Sanchez has some sick skills – great feet, great release. It’s almost like looking at a young Dan Marino, who can run a little better. Still has a LOT to prove with his arm before a REAL comparison with the greatest passer of all time can really be made, but MAN.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I like the post.
If they wanted Cassel and knew the money they would pay him, then they should have made sure with FA or the draft they got players to help him.
Yes Pioli/Haley did things to all sides of the ball, but when you are as bad as we were you can’t just do a little to every side and expect it to be good enough. If Piioli would have gotten better players for the right side of the line, we still might not be able to stop teams on defense but at least our offense could put up some points and keep up with the other team.
Cassel has something to prove 3TD's against Eagles
by bringbacktheglory on Sep 28, 2009 3:09 PM CDT reply actions
Vermiel tried that
The Kansas City Chief's 2009 record will be 5-11.
yes and almost all of his drafts went to defense after that
the problem was he wasn’t very good at drafting for defense.
Cassel has something to prove 3TD's against Eagles
by bringbacktheglory on Sep 28, 2009 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Starting with defense is probably more pleasing to KC fans, as a general proposition.
We’d be happy with handing the ball off all day long behind 7 O-linemen if the D were dominant. We’d get a kick out of seeing our starting DT in at fullback, and a LB filling-in at TE, time to time…
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Hey I've got an idea...
Why don’t we just petition the commissioner to allow us only to play against college teams next year…then we could win most of our games if not all of them…would that make you feel better?
While we’re at it…why don’t we ask also that we start out every game 7-0. Is that we’ve become in KC?? Are we soooooo bad that we’ve begun to welcome anything as an excuse to win?
I want a team that is the pride of the NFL. I want other teams to hate us because we’re a threat to them every year. I want a Peyton Manning, I want a Ray Lewis type defense and a Belichek type coach/GM…
If you guys wonna settle for a half ass team that needs a pee wee schedule to compete go right ahead but I want my Chiefs to be for real. I want my Chiefs to be awesome.
by krayfish on Sep 28, 2009 3:11 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
um
1) I dont think any Chief fan that comes to this site wishes our team would suck (exception would be before to Carl getting fired)
2) Reality of the situation is only 2 games are determined by record T-W-O, if you are lucky to get the NFC West on your schedule during your 4 year rotation, good for you. My point being that easy/hard schedules are moot because only 2 games depend on your record while the rest is set in stone
3) This post is what is annoying me about our fans. We’re 0-3, yes it sucks, yes I wish we were better but we need to take a step off the ledge and let the season progress. The season is just like a football game, 4 quarters, its not how you start its how you finish.
JUST RELAX everyone please…..
"I will fight you!"
"What is your weapon?"
"My bare hands!"
"That is stupid. I will use a sword and I will cut off your bare hands."
by CT Chief Fan on Sep 28, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
NFL teams are good, and especially good at making each other look "BAD."
From NFL.com. : Falling Star? How can Tony Romo look so good one day and so mediocre the nest? Well, it depends on who you ask.
My point: This happens to most teams and it takes time to turn things around.
Dallas lost in the playoffs...we lost all season long..
we can’t even spell playoffs…we suck….we won 6 games in 2 years…and zero already this season…once again we’re basement dwellers the jokes of the nfl….I say enough is enough already…let’s win for real and play for real…
Playoff futility is just as frustrating.
Face it. We all want a SB, and we won’t be happy ‘til we win one. One championship and I’m good for another 30 years. I’m just at the end of my rope.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Miami started 2-4...
… last year. Early in the season they lost to Baltimore by 14, lost a close home game to divisional opponent early, and were blown out by the eventual NFC Champions by twenty (-one). Sound familiar?
I bring this up not to infer that the Chiefs can still be last year’s Miami. I don’t think they’re that good, nor does their hellacious schedule give them a chance to reach 11-5. I would like to make a point that when systems and personnel are blown up on both sides of the ball, the new systems and new personnel take time to gel. A turnaround of this magnitude does not happen overnight (paraphrasing Parcells’ regular message to Pioli via 810).
I think the current adminstration is doing the right things. I like that the team plays hard and I think Haley will coach the stupid out of them. It’s been three games, which is hardly a decent sample size from which to judge. I’m going to give them more time; I expect a good (.500+) record after the bye.
I've contracted a particularly virulent form of the R2D2 asshat virus. Please wash eyeballs & keyboard after contact.
You guys are just being negative. I hope the Chief players don't read this.
They need to get their spirits up, and so do we. These attitudes sure don’t help anyone.
I guess some of you just want to get rid of everyone and start over. Good luck.
yeah, that's the ticket ... everone kdeep "winning thoughts" and the team will ... win
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Prove It Won't Work
You can’t prove it won’t :) Good luck getting the whole fan base to think positive to support this experiment. I’m willing to bet that if all fans did think positive, we would actually win.
hey mis21...dont' be a hypocrite
your the one who said making stuff up was better than dealing with reality..so get on board…we’re having a delusional moment….enjoy it…it’s our fantasy and we’re going to stick to it.
Sensing Optimism
I am sensing new found optimism.
I predict a total domination of the hapless Giants coupled with our first victory this weekend. The players reading this site will credit Krayfish alone for instilling them with the confidence necessary to overwhelm their opponents.
prove it will
sure, there’s something to be said for The Power Of Positive Thinking – but you can run into a brick wall all you want, the fact is: it’s still a brick wall and it’s still gonna hurt like hell
calling something “green” when it’s red doesn’t MAKE it green … it makes the person calling it “green” delusional (or anti-societal)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Mmm.
Forget reading the playbook, the team just needs to go grab a copy of “The Secret.”
The Secret reveals the most powerful law in the universe. The knowledge of this law has run like a golden thread through the lives and the teachings of all the prophets, seers, sages and saviors in the world’s history, and through the lives of all truly great men and women. All that they have ever accomplished or attained has been done in full accordance with this most powerful law.
Without exception, every human being has the ability to transform any weakness or suffering into strength, power, perfect peace, health, and abundance.
Screw practicing. Let’s just think happy thoughts and let the universe give to use what we believe we deserve.
Even Better
Is this review of “The Secret”.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
"Ari Brouilette"
Has written a few reviews of other products on Amazon. They’re all worth checking out. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
your probably right jcox...I think we're just so disappointed
all the off season hype…all the changes…all the newness…we actually had hope and then this again….but your right…starting with me…. a better attitude would be better than this.
Its not even that, its that the season is three weeks old.
I think we all thought we’d see improvement this year and maybe we will or wont but you have to remember before the season started what were the expectations of this team through the first 5-6 games?
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 28, 2009 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions
okay upamtn and jcox....here I go...I'm smiling and forcing myself to be sincere when I say this
GO CHIEFS!!
Thanks - all you positve guys. It would be nice to think of how this team would have felt
if they had beaten the Raiders. Now, maybe their next best chance is probably Washington………….but on a positive note…..let’s upset the Giants. :)
Cassel was the right move
But we should’ve just traded a 2010 1st-round pick instead of the 2009 2nd. We could’ve drafted Rey Maualuga, who is having a nice season already in Cincy. Would’ve really solved some of our problems at inside linebacker.
As for the offensive line, we really need to sign an entire new line aside from Albert. Waters is washed up. Niswanger is still terrible. Goff has been a washed up bust, and Ndukwe is not the answer. Honestly, when you’re starting the former 3rd string T from 0-3 Miami, you’ve gotta be willing to do something else. Start O’Callaghan or sign Jon Runyan. I’m not sure why Runyan is not a Chief, especially before this game.
We have that extra 2nd round pick sitting in our laps. It’s time to trade for a body up front or a playmaking wide receiver. Do a deal for Boldin and sign Runyan. There’s gotta be better solutions out there than what we have now. Scott Pioli – that’s your job.
Unemployed,
after trying out for at least 3 teams including the one that cut him and needs a tackle. Stay away…
I remember Dawson to Taylor, Kenney to Carson, and Blackledge catching the snap in his facemask. Seen it all...
Has to be something wrong with him I'd imagine
or he would be signed somewhere. We have an obvious need and brought his in to workout but didn’t take him so thats the only thing I can come up with.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 28, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Additionally, I don't like the Magee pick in the 3rd round
Louis Vasquez could’ve been drafted here. He replaced Mike Goff in San Diego. Magee was an unnecessary pick.
Or James Laurinaitis
Would’ve really made me happy.
The Chiefs weren't going to solve all their problems in ONE offseason
If you didn’t think the Chiefs were in for the long haul here, you weren’t paying attention.
No they won't - you're right BUT
They could have traded down to picks 8-12 and drafted T Michael Oher and then kept that 2nd RD pick (Cassel trade) + Tony G to trade up to Round 1 (picks 18-22) to draft C Alex Mack.
Imagine the difference with the O-line of
LT B. Alberts
LG B. Waters
C A. Mack
RG M. Goff
LT M. Oher
We would have smack the Raiders and possible won the game at Baltimore, who knows if that line could have held up against Philly’s rush and given the team a shot to compete in Game 3 too. But …. its all a big IF
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I think its funny
That people have this attitude like Pioli is sitting in his office and is just ignoring things or “lost focus” like this post suggests and that we have all the answers and we’re baffled he hasn’t thought of these things. Chances are if the fans know and see the problems maybe he does too? Executive of the year….twice…
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
I've mock drafted a super bowl caliber chiefs team several times--
sadly they don’t listen. I really wanted WR Mike Wallace in the 4th this year, sadly that asst GM spot never came.
What you really need to do is barge into Pioli's office with a list of names, your list of demands that need to be addressed
but remember, that only works if you’re someone with some clout, like if you’re a Pro Bowler …
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
+1
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions
I think its funny...
some of us get all upset sayin “its only week 3”, well guess what,…..it gets worse. Starting with the Giants, Cowboys, Redskins the next three weeks….lol we are in for a long season…
Giants likely..
Dallas maybe, redskins I’m no so sure. Thats alot of credit for a team that barely beat the Rams without scoring a TD and lost to th 0-19 lions.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 28, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Not a long season
The moment we hired Todd Haley – it was game over in my mind!
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Skins?
I like our chances against the Redskins. I’m actually attending that game, so if things go wrong I’ll make sure to mention it directly to the coaching staff for you all.
Here's a poll to start...
Which week will Haley blow a circuit? I know weve had the extreme body language, but iam guessing we get a full fledge Shit Fit……What week? …..hmmm week 6???
Oh REALLY!!!!!
You can give Todd Haley a FREE PASS because????
I thought that Herm was resigned to the fact the team sucked too the last 2 years, thats why they gave him time to rebuild through the draft. That’s why, Gailey install the offense for Thigpen to make our O-line looked somewhat mediocre. But when Pioli and Haley took over, they refuse to acknowledge our o-line suck, and points the losses to lack of coaching and effort from the players – I think Haley knows now that you can’t coach players who don’t belong – lack of talent!
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions
We'll see this week.
I think Week 2 was bad, but Week 3 was an embarrassment for the coach. They looked like a poorly coached team on offense, especially, and that goes directly to Haley, himself. On D, I think they’re still trying to find something that the secondary can do well, but they haven’t found it. I think we’ll see a lot more Washington, not because he’s done all that great, but because he’s their best chance of getting SOMEthing going.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
too late, he had his chance
he actually seems rather humble now … the NFL has a way of doing that to people
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
I think this article misses the point.
1. Most great teams get the QB before the line. See: Manning, Aikman, Brady.
2. Tony’s maximum value to Pioli was this off season. His salary plus his attitude provided a nice opportunity to gain that value back.
3. Not sure if it was mentioned, but the picks for Tony were for 2010. http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/4/23/850884/breaking-down-the-tony-gonzalez
4. There are only 7 or 8 players a team can draft per year, depending on what they’ve traded away. The prevailing thought, agreed by 31 other football teams, is that half of our starting roster wasn’t worth a backup role on any of theirs. What exactly do you expect? 7 Starters when the average is 1.6 (?) starters out of a draft? It will take time to replace this whole thing. I know it’s a hard thing to hear right now, after hearing it for a decade with the Royals and the past half decade with the Chiefs, but at some point we have to let our guard back down and trust this regime. It’s going to take time.
5. It is possible they knew exactly what they were getting with this line and chose not to address it on purpose. I would never say that we’ve tanked on purpose, but this is a perfect opportunity for Albert to prove his worth at LT, which he’s not. We move him to LG in the off season and draft a real LT with another top-3 pick.
6. The Tyson Jackson pick was good.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
t is possible they knew exactly what they were getting with this line and chose not to address it
and that’s what happened … this is an “evaluation year” and was blown off long, long ago
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
The Tony Gonzales trade was the red flag, there.
And everybody should have known it.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
everyone on this site knew McIntosh was atrocious ... Goff is yet another retread
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Responding to point 1, the Colts did NOT get the QB before the line. They drafted Tarik Glenn and Adam Meadows the season before taking Manning, and they already had some other key personnel in place ahead of time as well. They also happened to have Marvin Harrison in place, and of course there’s no target even in the same zip code as Harrison on the Chiefs today.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions
but it was clearly before the line had developed.
See: 1-15?
(can’t remember the exact record)
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
That record didn’t hinge on the line. Manning had a very productive season, too. The defense was absolutely terrible, while the line—including the rookie Steve McKinney—was actually pretty decent. They took Scioli the next draft, too.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Peyton's Rookie Year
326 Comp 575 ATT 56.7Comp % 3739Yard 26TD 4.5INT% 28INT
He also took 22 sacks. I don’t know how you define “very productive” but 28 Interceptions…yuck
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
That’s still very productive. He threw tons of interceptions, but when your defense’s lameness is of such epic proportions (seriously, can you think of a worse defense in those years?), you spend all day trying to come back, and that means desperate passes, which result in more interceptions. I thought he handled it pretty well, and the line was actually pretty solid for being as young as it was.
Either way, the point stands: Indy did, in fact, work to build the line before they drafted Manning, and also did so in the same draft they took him and the year after.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
So Indy Built a Line with the Thought
“Hey we’ll really really suck this year drafting an o-line and then we’ll draft Peyton Manning”?
Cart or Horse …
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions
keep the philosopher in the wagon
never put Descartes before da horse
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
I’m not sure how you reached that interpretation. Indianapolis thought it needed to address the offensive line, so it started drafting on the offensive line, and when the time came to pick a player, they thought, Hey, there’s a great prospect on the board, and we have the basic framework of success (at least three solid linemen, decent stopgaps at the other two spots, and picks they eventually turned into McKinney and Scioli), so pull the trigger. Oh, and of course they’d also recently drafted Dilger and Marvin Harrison.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok But Listen To Yourself
You’re admitting that the team with a decent o-line, drafted a WR before a QB (M. Harrison), and lost 15 games with said team and lucked into Peyton Manning.
If they win two more games for instance and pick third in that year’s draft they don’t get him. I know about the “ifs” and “butts” but not for a second do I believe they built and o-line with Manning in mind. They might have built o-line first and then with it in place drafted a QB but you can’t convince me they were planning on Manning.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions
No, they didn’t build it with Manning in particular in mind, but I’m 100% convinced they weren’t counting on, say, Jim Harbaugh.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry, didn't finish...
In other words, they worked to fix the line, and they knew they had to do so for the eventual QB to have much success. I think Ryan Leaf or, had they waited, even Tim Couch might’ve done okay had either ended up in Manning’s place.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions
You better stop sounding like me.
Nice points, burntorangehorn.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Sure
But with Cassel falling to use for a 2nd with Vrable thrown in I’m sure Pioli felt inclined to pull the trigger. There is not “1 way” to build a team and if we had taken an olineman with the 1st and 2nd round picks and let’s say Brodie/Thigpen sucked major donkey with rumors swirling that we could have had Cassel and Vrabel for a 2nd ….then what would you guys be saying? Rome wasn’t built in a day.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions
“You guys”?
Well, I don’t know about everyone else, but I’m almost always in favor of building up other positions, THEN bringing in the QB. Oh, and I don’t like the idea of trading picks for veteran QBs. It’s ludicrous that KC hasn’t developed a starting-quality QB in-house since…well, can anyone finish my sentence?
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Todd Blackledge
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Blackledge > Marino
Duh
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Sep 28, 2009 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
And Jim Kelly.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 28, 2009 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
To Be Fair to Matt C
He isn’t a “veteran” like the traditional sense of the word. He is just 26 with only 17 starts under his belt. It’s not like they picked up Steve DeBerg again :)
My question still stands …if we skipped on Cassel and drafted 2 o-lineman in rounds 1 and 2 this year. First who do you take? Second if we started the season with Croyle, Thigpen, Gutierrez and they were horrendous what do you think people would be saying in KC? Here we go again…bad QBs these guys are terrible, no pocket presence, “Brokie Croyle” etc ….
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t think the world’s best search engine would ever find anything supportive that I’ve said about Brodie Croyle. He was a bum at ‘Bama, and he’s a bum now. Thigpen’s not a great talent or anything, but he’s serviceable and scrappy enough that he wouldn’t actually hinder the development of the surrounding personnel. He could fill the spot while building the framework into which the QBOTF, when found, would be inserted.
As for whom I would have drafted, I’ve already listed a number of guys I would have gladly drafted over Tyson Jackson. Jackson, IMO, had no business in the top 15, and probably shouldn’t have been a first-rounder.
As for what people would have been saying in KC had the Chiefs gone with Croyle, Thigpen, etc., I don’t think I could care much less. What has to be done, has to be done, and I don’t live anywhere near KC (I’m in the DC ‘burbs), so I can’t hear the ignorant bellyaching from here. The emo reactions to three losses just further betray the unrealistic expectations many had coming into the 2009 season. Herm did what was necessary, which was to blow up the aging, let’s-take-one-last-shot-at-winning-it team Peterson had cobbled with Vermeil, but of course Herm’s a bad coach, and he had a bad GM/prez above him. I can’t believe people went into 2008 OR 2009 expecting more than about five wins.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
All true.
Except I’m still mathematically in the running with my “.500 team” prediction.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Apparently the blog admin doesn’t agree with me, because I was officially warned by the content nazis for the use of the word “bellyaching.”
If I were the type to use the word “lol,” right now would be when I would use it.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the sort of thing I usually say, burntorangehorn.
But it carries more weight when a grownup says it.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Grownup?
You obviously have me confused with someone else!
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
you assumed payton manning what about Eli?
if i remember right the giants line was pretty terrible when they got him.
by ChiefsfanJon on Sep 28, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions
You really think he was talking about Eli Manning? He hasn’t been all that impressive, so I’m pretty sure Jon was talking about Peyton.
As for the Jints’ line, I think they had O’Hara, Pettigout, and Snee in place ahead of Manning’s arrival, and I could be forgetting someone else, but the points is that the line wasn’t exactly the major weakness at the time.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions
well I did mean Peyton, but the point with Eli stands as well.
The QB always comes before the line, but not necessarily on purpose. The bad teams usually that can draft that good of a QB usually have horrible lines.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
Yep takes a top 15 pick
to get a franchise QB normally we possibly got one for a 2nd rounder along with a Veteran Defensive leader
by ChiefsfanJon on Sep 28, 2009 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Bull
Thats what happen to a #1 overall pick – David Carr. get your QB first??? If he’s lucky he’d survive a season or two without major injury, and if it continues – it may take down the QB’s self esteem that he is any good.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Using an expansion franchise as a counter example is probably not the best idea.
But go on about QB’s “self esteem.” That’s a worthwhile discussion.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
It actually IS a worthwhile discussion. Many a QB talent has been unnecessarily ruined by traumatic experiences behind crappy lines with crappy coaches, and Carr is definitely one of them.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Tim Couch Was Another
Cleveland absolutely wrecked him by never putting a line around him.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Guys like you are in the minority around here.
But I’m with you.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
toss in Ryan Leaf
San diego did well with him at the helm
by Ren on Sep 28, 2009 8:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
They Had An Okay Line, Though
Leaf’s problem was more that he was a colossal asshole, and apparently a drug addict.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
ok good point
But you can’t bet the farm soley on the QB none the less
by Ren on Sep 28, 2009 8:25 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I Won't Dispute That
There isn’t a single player in the NFL who carry a team on his own.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
1. Most great teams get the QB before the line. See: Manning, Aikman, Brady.
Most teams get the QB first, PERIOD. If that’s what everybody does, then of course most of the teams that win (and most that lose) got their QB first. Aikman’s early concussions shortened his career. And Brady wasn’t exactly a high-dollar acquisition.
2. Tony’s maximum value to Pioli was this off season. His salary plus his attitude provided a nice opportunity to gain that value back.
Actually, other than team chemistry issues, Tony was a player this team could easily have afforded. I think part of the “right side of the O-Line” plan was getting more of a blocking TE (which we mysteriously haven’t seen).
5. It is possible they knew exactly what they were getting with this line and chose not to address it on purpose. I would never say that we’ve tanked on purpose, but this is a perfect opportunity for Albert to prove his worth at LT, which he’s not. We move him to LG in the off season and draft a real LT with another top-3 pick.
In light of your #6, below, one sees why maybe O-Line wasn’t #1 priority. But ya gotta take the Magee pick in the 3rd on faith. I’m still hopeful for Albert, but that’s a position you just can’t make any compromises on.
6. The Tyson Jackson pick was good.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
You're completely overlooking Pioli's general strategy of trading players
EXACTLY like Tony G (with his years and contract). Even a year late, the long-term value of the 2nd round pick is greater than what Tony could provide for this year and the next.
Or at least that’s the way Pioli was thinking. If Tony G goes onto play for another 5 years at the same productive level he was last, then it was a mistake. But no matter how the pick turns out (bust or otherwise), it was a shrewd move maximizing value when the team had little.
It’s called selling high, kids.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
by Justin Bopp on Sep 28, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I was one of the ones that thought we were good on the left side.
but I watched a show that broke down 5 plays of the left side of our offense. and 4 of those plays Albert was bad, Waters couldn’t do his job because Albert wasn’t where he was supposed to be. There was even a play where the Eagles only rushed 4 and we had 7 and still couldn’t block them, that is just horrible.
Cassel has something to prove 3TD's against Eagles
by bringbacktheglory on Sep 28, 2009 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I definitely thought it was folly to trade for Cassel. Even if he was worth a second-round pick (which I vocally contested at the time), he definitely wasn’t worth a second-round pick as long as the line remained poor.
I also will continue to question the decision to draft Tyson Jackson. Even assuming Pioli couldn’t find a decent trading partner for the early pick, even at a serious discount from traditional point values, I definitely think Jackson was the wrong decision of the remaining players on the board. There are numerous guys I would’ve taken there long before Jackson.
That said, I do think Pioli has things on at least a decent course. Not all personnel decisions will be perfect or even good, but they don’t have to be. Just enough of them have to be good for the team to come together and become a cohesive organization, and I do think they’re on that track. What’s ridiculous, in my opinion, is the disappointment that so many people are expressing about the 0-3 record. There were many people here who were in complete denial this summer about the imminent rebuilding year, and now they’re being disillusioned. This team was NOT going to be the 9-7 that many predicted, or even the 7-9 that more reasonable people predicted. I said 5-11 or 6-10, and even if that proves to have been a bit too optimistic, I’ll be very satisfied if this team just makes this year into a good platform for future success. After three games, the opportunity to do just that with a whole cast of new players still remains.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 3:44 PM CDT reply actions
D-Line Tough for Rookies
I heard the same thing here in Houston when they drafted Mario Williams. D-Line rookies rarely perform in their rookie year. I’ll hold off my judgement this season due to lessons learned.
Mario Williams was a freakish prospect, as showed leading up to the draft. He accomplished a lot in college as well as the workouts. Jackson…didn’t.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Tough Crowd
I’m glad you’re not my boss. I’m sure you’d be disappointed with my performance on this message board :) Actually my boss probably would be disappointed…
Demanding perfection will only lead to disappointment; that I can guarantee. You may end up right about Jackson. My point was that he deserves judgement until next season whether you think he was a smart pick or not.
Where did I demand perfection?
I sure as heck would want a lot more than Jackson has to offer if I’m selecting at #3, but I sure never demanded perfection.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
On Me
100% on me for the perfection comment. I just felt like saying it because it sounded so philosophical when I was typing it.
An inferred comment will be challenged at every instance on a sports message board.
Most thought that was rather high, and you mentioned the speculation that the #3 was untradeable.
I think Jackson was more about “You better not miss,” and Magee was insurance on top of that.
I’m still willing to give the push on a lot of decisions, because I’m on the outside lookin’ in, but it sure looked like a lot of little moves, without many really big ones. The biggest move of all was the modesty of the moves, if that makes sense.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Cassell not worth 2nd rounder
Cassell + Vrabel is worth a 2nd Rounder. What guys would you have taken ahead of Jackson with the pick. A LT when we thought we had a LT of the future? A 4-3 LB with 0 blitzing ability, Raji to play NT when he can’t even play DE in a 3-4 atm. How bout a WR cuz that is where we should start building. Jackson was the best player for our team at that position not to mention that he has a the work ethic to become a great DE and hopefully get Dorsey working just as hard
by ChiefsfanJon on Sep 28, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What indication of his work ethic did you have leading up to the draft?
I was against keeping the #3, but I definitely would’ve rather picking Curry, Monroe, Smith, Jenkins, Raji, or Orakpo.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Jon is right
Jackson had a great combine and workout, NFL execs were all impressed with him, and he did fit a need for a building block in the defense.
I would NOT rather have Jenkins, Raji or Orakpo
Smith? burnt, did you mean Jason or Andre… Jason would have been nice, but he was gone, Andre is a joke, no way I wanted him.
So, really it’s down to Curry, Monroe or Jackson.
Of those three, Monroe and Jackson fit the biggest need… and you can’t get BOTH!!!
I would have liked to see a trade down, etc… but it didn’t happen, and they got a solid building block for the defense.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
What did Jackson do in workouts that was anything resembling impressive? He looked extremely clumsy to me in drills, he’s not very quick, and his push was good, but not great. I’d expect more of the #3. And during the season he showed that he’s a non-factor when it comes to creating pressure on the quarterback. He couldn’t even do it against collegiate competition, so why expect him to be able to do it in the NFL? Orakpo was a beast, a far better athlete, and far more productive. Raji is big, strong, and my only real concern with him was the marijuana “problem” (of course, I think weed shouldn’t be tested at ALL by the NFL in the first place, so I’m biased).
Andre Smith is bad at everything except being a damn good offensive tackle.
What did you not like about Jenkins? That guy is big, strong, fast, and has great coverage and tackling (for a corner) skills. What else could one want in a corner?
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Sure enough, you hit my weak spot: great cornerback.
But I thought Jackson looked damn good at the combine. VERY quick for a true big man. Compared to all the ‘tweener prospects hoping to play 4-3 DE in the pros, I’d imagine Jackson looked slow by comparison.
Jenkins eventually went to New Orleans at #14, so he’d’ve been considered a reach, but you can NEVER understimate the importance of a lockdown corner, which he showed every sign of being, PLUS able to come in a make a wicked TFL against the run, now and then. One guy like that, and you suddenly have an instant extra hat to play with somewhere else on the field.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
But Pioli - uh, YOU - would've been lynched for heresy by going CB when virtually everyone other than you, me, 'n' maybe Stagdsp
was CERTAIN CB was the one position where KC was set…
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I'm with that, stagdsp.
Now to read burntorangehorn’s answer and change my mind, again. :o)
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I didn't like the Cassel thing at the time, for all the same reasons.
But I gave Pioli the benefit of the doubt, after I looked at Cassel playing like a taller, more accurate passer (than Thigpen) who could prosper in the spread behind a shitty o-line. What I’ve seen Haley trying to do with the offense is not in line with that, which would’ve been fine, if KC had drafted Michael Oher. But they didn’t. And I’m wondering now, after all tonight’s talk, if maybe he DID jump the gun with Gailey, who at least fielded an offense with LAST year’s crew that gave defenses something to worry about.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I’m still scratching my head about the Gailey firing. I didn’t come by AP to read up on it, so I’m sure I missed some inside dirt on the situation, but I really just can’t figure out what happened. I didn’t think Gailey was some all-world OC or anything, but right before the season opener seems like one of the least likely times for a coordinator or head coach to be fired.
Anyone have any inside knowledge?
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I think they just weren't sharp, and were practicing slower than he expected an offense to practice.
He apparently installed quite a bit of new stuff, too, but the main thing at the time was the PACE of practice accelerated on offense.
After watching him try some of the same things he did in Arizona since taking over OC, I’m thinking it possible that he’s experiencing some buyer’s remorse. It may be that he’s being forced to accept that this is still spread offense personnel.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I have been thinking about the Gailey firing
I think Your right about the spread offense, I think Gailey tried telling Haley the we would have to run the spread a lot this year,that we didn’t have the players to run the offense he wants. and that got him fired.
It seems so far that Haley wants to be old school and run to establish the pass and those passes are going to be from a pure pocket passer.
Cassel has something to prove 3TD's against Eagles
by bringbacktheglory on Sep 28, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Ego of Hailey
I read all of the post and I must say every side in this post have valid points; but the thing that perturbs me most of all of this is the famous Todd Haley quote ‘He can get 12 guys from off the streets and win 2 games" well he got the quarterback he wanted; paying him big money in fact and Cassel is not off the streets; Hailey has let go almost half of last year’s chiefs and brought in big names like Vrable; he played with the idea of Asley Lalee and other well known wide recievers. Hailey who thinks he is god almighty has even fired the offensive co-ordinator and all we have to show for all of this is us loosign to the team who is worse than us the raiders a week ago and being himiliated LIKE EVERYBODY THAT PLAYED FOR THE CHIEFS WERE REALLY FROM THE STREETS AND NEVER PLAYED PROFESSINAL FOOTBALL yesterday. So mr. geni-ass Hailey has proven wrong again; along with everything he has done so far for the chiefs; Maybe he should know that we can probably pick up any coach from the streets and beat the freaking raiders.
it was 22 guys
and I’m not 100% convinced that Haley actually wanted Cassel as much as Pioli wanted him
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
I suspect Croyle's more Haley's speed. He can throw darts and has a quick release like Warner.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
and apparantly we CAN'T pick up any coach from the streets and beat the Raiders
so I guess you’re just a little off base there, huh
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Ego of Haley or EGO of PIOLI?
If we go 0-16, and Scott holds on to Todd Haley – its not just Haley, its about Don Pioli’s ego.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions
take a deep breath, man ... and then another
I too was a “Haley Hater” (not in love with the guy, but I do appreciate that’s been humbled over the weekend
fact is, I think Pioli’s more responsible for most of the lingering issues than Haley (with the exception of tossing Gailey just prior to season opener, that was ludicrous)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
I'd Agree With That
Plus, Pioli is the one who hired Haley and signed off on the hirings of all of Haley’s mediocre-to-poor coaching buddies. Ultimately he bears the most responsibility for what happens with this team.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I think it's still too early to talk about lingering ANYthing...
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Everybody calm down.
Belichick’s first year 5-11, accidentally won the Tom Brady lottery, let’s not forget Bledsoe got injured which allowed Brady to start.
Cowher, took 12 years to win the superbowl
Tomlin took over Cowher’s ESTABLISHED SUCCESSFUL program, won a superbowl asap.
Johnson took over Cowboys 1-15, next year 7-9 got the HOF roster that allowed Switzer to win a superbowl for crying out loud!!!
Dungy 6-10 regression from 7-9 as Bucs coach, coached for 6 years, had to go to Indy and coach for another 6 years before winning the superbowl. Gruden was able to take the team over the top, and then immediately flopped.
Coughlin 6-10, team was practically revolting after 3 years, then caught lightning in a bottle.
Everybody just needs to calm the freak down. Last year’s team was terrible, they were 2-14. Do you have any idea how much needs to be fixed on a 2-14 team? It is not reasonable to assume the picks last year were going to push this team over the top. Rookies take time to develop.
And for all of the Sanchez fan boys out there, the guy is obviously talented, but he also has all day to throw the ball. The line he is behind was formed 3 years ago with the draft of DFerguson & Nick Mangold; looks like it took a couple of years for those guys to gell; WEIRD.
Does it suck to be a Chiefs fan now, hell yes. Will it get better with the right personel moves, yes it will. The thing we need to realize is that there are too many moves to make right now.
Drafting TJ was not moving deck chairs on the sinking Titanic, its a good move, a quality player at an important spot. If we had a stud Olineman right now our offense would still suck. When the ship has as many holes as the Chiefs does, you just have to put your head down and start plugging them. Eventually we’ll get them all filled and it will be clear sailing from then on.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Sep 28, 2009 4:00 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Sanchez has made some solid throws under pressure.
It’s not ALL the supporting cast. But your main point is still good.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Cassel has made good throws as well
And Sanchez has a run game to fall back on should his composure under-center go south.
There is much more pressure on Cassel, IMO.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
+1
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm So Sick of This Quote
Here the Whinney? That’s the dead horse you’re beating. This quote is tired. It’s like the old “Five Year Plan” Quote that no one could verify with Carl Peterson. Sometimes I’m ashamed to be a Chiefs fan as wishy-washy as they are. Three weeks ago it was GIVE EM HELL HALEY and now he’s just "angry and “out of control”.
Get a grip, take a breath, go for a jog, or if you’re in your mom’s basement I heard McDonalds is hiring.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
the fans have a heart
i won’t call us whinney becuase we are complaining; and it doesn’t make our love for the chiefs any less; otherwise we wouldn’t be here using our precious time to talk about the chiefs; it’s not whinney when we are hoping for a win; it’s call being a true fan; I am from the Bahamas and every week i am in front of the tube watching our team; even when we are down by 20 in the fourth quarter; is that wishy-washy? every year i travel for 9 hours from the bahamas to kansas city to watch a 3 hour game and then back again to the bahamas for a next 9 hours; is that wishy washy? no; i think what this tread proves is that chiefs fans are the most passionate fans out there; why else would we be here? if we were wishy washy all of us would be pooling for the super bowl champs or some other team that looks better than ours… this proves our love for our team.
I meant Whinney like a Horse ..not Whiney like a child
I’m talking wishy-washy on the team and its direction. People assume just because Herm tried to rebuild and it failed that we shouldn’t have to rebuild now. Tough, we do, live with it or find something else to watch on Sunday. I was as pissed as you can imagine yesterday. We looked like a team that layed down and quit. But to think after 3 games that somehow this was going to be a movie script and all would “fall into place” is optimistic at best and foolish at worst. I’m glad to see we have fans all over and my “wishy washy” statement wasnt about people jumping from the Chiefs per se…but more jumping off the direction of the team.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Alert the media! Dead horse resurrected! Medical Miracle!
Certain contributors here were talking about “angry Haley” long before this and right along.
Things got ugly here after the Philly game because of HOW they lost. Oakland was one they should’ve won. Baltimore was a definite underdog situation, where the little dog showed plenty of fight. Philly game was just ugly.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I want Haley on the HOT SEAT
A hot head like his deserve to be on the HOT SEAT out.
We’ll see if Pioli is all about his EGO – if we go 0-16, will Haley get the boot? I never like the Haley hiring. Schwatz was the guy I wanted but Pioli might have gotten screwed when Den grabbed McDaniels before he was ready to come on board. Either way, we’re stuck with freaing hot head Haley –
The thing with Haley is – with his ways of, benching guys and punishing veteran players for making little mistakes – his ways of demeaning and degrading players – a way of embarrasing them MIGHT WORK if KC was winning. The way I see now – if this losing continues – those negative approach will back-fire big time. We’re very much looking at 0-6 with the 3 NFC East opponents coming.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
but 1-15 would be ok , huh
Haley’s calmed down quite a bit of late – even some people like myself are off the “Can Haley Now” bandwagon – you seem pretty hot-headed yourself
relax, take it easy … have some iced tea
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Hey 58, Do you Recite Whitlock's Articles
Because you spew out his tidbits like they’re your own. Do yourself a favor and watch the games and form your own opinions. You are a Whitlock clone.
Wrack Me I’m out.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think we should start a new SBN-only meme
REC ME I’M OUT!
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
More like Whitlock recites mine
If you’ve seen any of my postings in 2009, I have always called Don Pioli to be about ego. I think Jason read some of my comments and perhaps one or two of my posts.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I like the way he's handled the benchings, generally.
He hasn’t aired dirty laundry or called out any players publicly. More was made of the player position on the depth chart by Shitlock and his disciples than by most of us. Always been frustrated by DBowe’s inconsistency. Lo and behold, DBowe drops a lot of catchable balls in practice and he finds himself demoted. No ego. Just “You dropped more balls than this other guy.” Lo and behold, DBowe fine-tunes his fundamentals and hasn’t dropped a single catchable ball in ’09 that I can recall.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Ive lost all faith in the chiefs organazation...
your moms boyfriend, Those are all drastic comparrisions, This team has had 4 years to re build, dont forget that, new regime doesnt mean shake the roster up again, not cool
Ummm when the team is 2-14, a new regime DOES mean shake up the roster
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Sep 28, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
generally a negime means shake up the roster regardless of record
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
I can see Whitlock's parrots have really taken root.
Has anybody, ever corroborated the “22 guys off the street” comment?
Has anybody, ever, heard of “Scott Egoli” before Mr. Whitlock started his shenanigans?
I realize that he is doing his job and ensuring his career as KC-critic a la mode, but some of your need to think for yourself.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
+1
LOL Justin I just typed that to 58. That guy was probably a huge Limbaugh parrot back in the late 90s.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions
sorry,
Pioli and Haley’s first draft was allmost like a dare for somebody to ask them WTF they were thinking. The I told you so’s havn’t even warmed up so it’ll be interesting to see if anybody can get under their skin….
Ok Tenacious You Give Me your Dream Draft
You have the third overall, no second rounder (assuming you get Vrabel and Cassel) and the rest of the draft. Based on 3 whole games of play how do you draft it in your dream scenario?
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Curry
Any O-line with a pulse for the next two picks and who cares about the rest.
Sign Haynesworth or Jason Taylor.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Sep 28, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Because Haynesworth and Taylor
Have really vaulted their teams to an impressive 1-5 record thus far. “Any O-line with a pulse” wow so some 5th round hack in the first round? Wow why didnt we just take the Heyward-Bay of o-line at 3rd overall…pure genius NJ …pure genius
Curry? I seem to recall Curry being on the field when Seattle got shredded by Frank Gore to the tune of 200 yards. He’s really been an impact.
by Ryan in Nixa on Sep 28, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions
You're absolutley right.
Pioli made every offseason move in the best possible fashion, and missed no opportunity. I was wrong to think otherwise.
Curry would have been pick number three by the way, not an o-lineman.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Sep 28, 2009 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Why is it all or nothing? Isn't that a bit of an immature stance to take?
Can’t he have made some good decisions and some bad ones? Is anybody really saying he hasn’t missed ANY opportunities?
Also, is not possible that those opportunities actually were considered? Would you really want Face-Stomping Haynesworth and his $80-$100 MILLION contract on our team?
Are you really serious? You can’t be trusted with intelligent commentary if you keep posting like that.
"What we do in life, echoes in eternity!"
The biggest problem of last season was the o-line.
Pioli and Haley have stated that they intend to in now. They failed to improve the o-line to a degree that can be noticed.
I would take Haynesworth and his contract. It’s not like he isn’t a good player, or that we don’t have the money to spend.
Curry did have a forced fumble yesterday. He also has a sack and 15 tackles (more than Mays). That would make him more of an impact than Mays or Vrabel.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Sep 28, 2009 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
The people that would WTF, have no concept how to draft/build a team
Everyone wants splashy free agent signings, ask Dan Snyder how that’s working out. A team that is built around being solid/unsexy is one that is built to last, that is true in sports and many other walks of life.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Sep 28, 2009 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I still think....
The Chiefs are 2-1 right now with the #1 UFA last off season….Ray Lewis. If every other offseason move went down the exact same except you sign Lewis instead of Thomas to man the ILB spot and things are turned around on D. We all love Mays because he was 1. Better than Thomas 2. Made a few plays 3. Was a nobody
But if you have Lewis and DJ at ILB this is a different D. And yes DJ would be starting. Haley wouldnt have to do crap because Ray-Ray would straighten his ass up.
Predictions for 2009:
LJ runs for 1800 yards
Bowe in the pro bowl
Chiefs D finishes in the top 10 in points allowed
Chiefs 10-6
We could have thrown 100 mil at Lewis and he wouldn't have taken it....
well maybe he would…point is he wasn’t going to play for the Chiefs. He’d probably kill someone (literally) if he was on this team.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Sep 28, 2009 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Chiefs are 2-1 now if
they’ve focused on the O-Line say..by drafting some guy names Michael Oher instead of Jackson. Watch game 1 where Oher man-handled Jackson.
I am going to have a post coming soon that compares what Herm’s regime did knowing that their O-line sucks and that they have limited talent on the roster. The thing that pisses me off is that Pioli/Haley’s regime refuse to acknowledge that talent makes a difference, you can coach a bunch of guys who can’t play up to the level of the true-pros.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Sep 28, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
This team was just flat out horrible...
…After the Herm/Peterson era. We had problems everywhere after they left Kansas City. There is only so much Haley/Pioli could have done in the offseason. If we would have addressed the o-line during the offseason; than it would have been the QB or d-line that would not have been addressed during the offseason. For crying out loud, it is only 3 games into the Pioli/Haley Era, and already the majority of our fanbase is calling the two heads. Why not just become the Oakland Raiders? Where after a rookie HC fails after his rookie season; we fire him, and have expect our next rookie HC to build a championship in 1 offseason. Yes, we are starving for a win, but there is a reason why Pioli is the GM, Haley is the HC, and we are fans. Pioli realises this team cannot be fixed over night, and a lot of the fanbase is calling for heads after a 0-3 start.
Baltimore was just a better team than us, and we were able to stay with them until the very end.
We should have won the Oakland game, but that game just proved that it takes time to get rid of a team’s “losing ways”.
Philadelphia was better than us in every single way. Was it frustrating watching us getting killed out there. YES!!! However, it was at Philadelphia against a team that was lightyears ahead of us in talent, and chemistry.
That exact same Eagles team that destroyed us yesterday was just like our team 10 years ago with a rookie HC named Andy Reid taking over for the overrated Ray Rhodes who had just led the Eagles to a 3-13 season. It took Reid 5 games to win his first game as a HC; after being killed in his first 4 games. The Eagles ended 5-11. The Eagles became a surprise team in 2000 with their up-and-coming franchise QB Donovan McNabb who had been embrasses in 1999.
I am not saying it is going to happen, but if we let Pioli/Haley do what they came here to do. We could be the next Philadelphia Eagles (+ some Super Bowl Championships, hopefully.), but if we his push them aside after 3 games/1 season. Then we are just asking for the impossible to happen.
I am curious about what people's expectations were with this "lost season."
Didn’t most people think this wasn’t a playoff team? How can the season be lost? The only way the season is a loss is if no player development goes on at all and we have 13 more weeks to see where that goes.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Agree
This is a lost season as far as making the playoffs are concern, but who saw the 2009 Kansas City Chiefs doing that?
I understand people are upset, and want to point the finger at someone for causing this mess. However, point it at the right people. Noone likes being falsely accused, or being made into a scapegoat.
The real problem has left town, and they are now out of the NFL. Now, we need to give their seccesssors a chance to rebuild this thing. There is no guarantee that their plan will work, or not work. However, we gave that last guy 20 years to get it right; we need to give the current game more than 3 games.
by ChiefsFan90s on Sep 28, 2009 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions
In the summer people were saying 5-6 wins would be what we should expect.
I am curious why people are so upset when it was largely believed the Chiefs might very well start this season with a series of losses.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
In my case, it's because I give a damn, and hated the Philly game.
It wasn’t just losing. It was losing ugly at every turn.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Some predicted 5-6 wins; others predicted eight or even more. I definitely hope to see five wins, mostly back-loaded toward the end of the season.
by burntorangehorn on Sep 28, 2009 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
An interesting thread...
I don’t particularly agree with you on the point that we shouldn’t have gotten a QB without first focusing on our O-Line. All the time, draft picks are made on people for many positions and they end up as busts. Same thing for free agents. If you don’t get the right fits for your offense/defense, it will not work. The particular problem for the Chiefs is that Vermeil/Peterson made terrible draft picks and free agent decisions for several years and Herm’s Cover-2 system was one we wanted to move away from. It’s difficult to make such a huge jump without having a year or two of transition. I agree we should have made more of an effort to specifically shore up our WR core and the right side of our OLine. It’s not especially hopeful that we’ve made so many moves after the season has started at these spots.
by Kristospherein on Sep 28, 2009 10:28 PM CDT reply actions
I don't agree with all of what you said,
but this is an excellent point:
No other sport exhibits this truth as much as football (since hockey is not a real sport, as we all know). In basketball, you can win championships with one superstar and several other role players or marginal players who, at the very least, don’t mess things up. Baseball is more individualistic than any of the majors. But football, you have to construct a team with the entire picture in mind.
Soccer and hockey have more passing, and so it may be even moreso for those sports. But in general, billiards and golf develop the individual; football uniquely develops individuals’ ability to operate in groups.
CNN = ABC = NBC = CBS = FOX = Chris Mortenson Journalism
play better pool - http://www.sticksandstonesbilliards.com
It's called rebuilding
Did you really think the team would be good after 1 off season? It’s going to take a while to correct all of the poor personnel decisions made before Pioli and Haley arrived.
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