Herm Is Gone. It's Time To Let Him Go.
by ChiefDJ on Sep 25, 2009 10:54 PM CDT
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During my daily perusals of high quality content here at Arrowhead Pride over the last week, I have noticed a fascinating trend regarding the fanbase's transition from the previous head coach to the new one.
As often happens when there is change, the fanbase is polarized between those who are mired in the past and those who are interested in the present and future of our team.
Some of us are having a hard time letting Herm go, and for the most part, its not those who were once his supporters...
We are at the very beginning of a change to a new head coach which I think it is safe to say that none of us really know anything about. Oh sure, we know that he was a student of Parcells. We know he was the wide receivers coach for the Jets, Bears and Cowboys before becoming Offensive Coordinator for the Arizona Cardinals.
But we don't really know if Todd Haley will be a succesful head coach or not. We don't really know if all of the "conditioning" he is so obsessed with is going to help the Chiefs win in the 4th quarter or be so exhausted by the end of the season that they won't be able to play in the postseason if they got there. We don't really know if his seemingly merciless expectations will end up with rolling of players eyes and alienating him from his team or if they will give this squad that only won six games in the last two seasons just what they need to find their way out of the losers rut.
We all have opinions on these things, but in reality only time will give us definitive answers and there hasn't been enough time yet.
What I would like to address though, is our expectations of Todd Haley as a fanbase. I have noticed a recurring theme in responses to those who question Haley's harshness. It typically goes something like this:
Fan A: "Haley is a raving lunatic on the sideline. He always looks pissed and is screaming at guys over the smallest mistake. The players are so afraid of being screamed at that they can't think for themselves!"
Fan B: "We got nowhere with Herm's coddling!"
Now there is nothing inherently wrong with either statment. Both are opinions and as the old joke goes, everyone has one.
What I would like to caution against, however, is that we do not delude ourselves into accepting inferior performance just because it's different, though not necessarily better, than what we had previously. In thisexample, the insinuation being that no matter what is happening now, it MUST be better because Herm isn't here any longer.
Now I'm in no way saying Haley is going to be a failure. As I said above, its far too early to know this. But we need to realize that just because one extreme failed, doesn't mean the opposite extreme must automatically be better. In this instance, just because Herm Edwards player friendly practices contributed to a horrible record the past few seasons does not mean that we should accept just as poor performance out of the team under Haley just because he is doing things differently. And let's face it, in many aspects, this team looks just as poor so far in 2009 as it did in 2008.
Hopefully that changes as the players get used to the new schemes and new coaching styles and new players are brought in to upgrade talent deficient areas.
But if it doesn't, and considering the schedule for the next month and a half it might not, we need to not fool ourselves into being happy with more of the same but in a different flavor. Perhaps it is satisfying to some that players that screw up are made to pay for it, but in the end if we still are a bad team with a horrible record, what good does it do?
This doesn't mean that we don't discuss mistakes that were made in the past. But rather that we do not let the memory of Herm Edwards become an excuse for underperformance today.
Once and for all, let us banish the specter of Herm Edwards from Arrowhead Pride. He's gone. He can't hurt you anymore. Gauge your expectations of the new regime not on simply being better than what was before, but by what we honestly see with our own eyes and hear with our own ears every Sunday.
Let's hope that Pioli and Haley are doing the same.
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I still love you guys!!
Just please always, always remember, you play to win the game.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
Not To Kick Off A Huge Political Debate
But it’s kind of like Obama for me…I liked the guy for about 10 minutes mainly because he wasn’t Bush, only to recognize rather quickly he was just as terrible in only slightly different ways. Doesn’t mean I’m not happy that Bush is gone…just that “not Bush” doesn’t automatically equate to “good”.
Oh, Bob Barr…where are you when we need you most?
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
by UCrawford on Sep 25, 2009 11:27 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Of Course
I’d say that the same thing re: Herm got brought up repeatedly in regards to Vermeil. I think everyone’s got their preferences for what they want to see in a coach and everyone’s going to be biased towards their preferential qualities that each coach displays. That’s why I agree with DJ’s assertion that it’s important to focus on results first and foremost instead of the coach’s “style” except in how it achieves results.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
great couple of posts, Crawford - I too detested Dubya so much (not to mention Palin) that almost anyone was preferable
… but Obama has been rather a disappointment thus far – typical politics, etc – but then, we all should know better anyway, after all, DC is DC … it is what it is, with lobbyists and corporations, etc
money talks
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
My Philosophy On It
Is that all politicians are crooks and liars until proven otherwise and I don’t trust a single one of them with an iota of power beyond what the Constitution allows.
Which is rather ironic, considering I’m a contractor for the government. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Well
I am a libertarian, and I’ve had a problem with authority since I was a toddler according to my folks. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Young At Heart :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
That's an easy out to excuse a mistake of a vote.
Saying all politicians are crooks and liars is a rather broad statement. Broad sweeping generalizations are not a good thing in any debate whether politics, religion, football, etc. The reality is that no person is perfect and is capable of letting you down. For example, it didn’t take some people very long to hop off the Haley / Pioli bandwagon and why? Because they haven’t won a game yet. That however, doesn’t mean they won’t win, it just means there are some people who want an instant fix and they want the solution to happen their way immediately or they won’t be happy.
by WesternChief on Sep 26, 2009 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions
for what it's worth, I was never ON the bandwagon for these guys ... ever
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
UCrawford
I know what you mean. I don’t work directly for the government, but my paycheck comes from the State budget that gets passed each year. I can’t stand the current system and what it has brought us, but I receive my pay check through them.
I Actually Work For A Private Company
We’re under a contract to train soldiers (although I was in the military for 10 years). I see a lot of inefficiency, but at least with my job it’s for a government function that’s allowed by the Constitution (national defense) and I work with a lot of people who are as, or more, libertarian than I am. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
People think he's a little fringy
But I think he’s got a great grasp of financial concepts. I bet if we gave that guy 8 years in office our national defecit would be significantly lower.
It's too late for that now.
Obama will have our great grandchildren paying back the debts he has racked up in the last 9 months.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 26, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
so true sir so true
Too many people looking for handouts…
They say that a democracy will only work, untill people start voting themselves money from the treasury…. looks like that may be happening.
great post, DJ, and well thought out
I’m pretty new here, and already many APers know I’ve been fairly well planted on the Fan A side of things … that said, I do think the team is better right now than they have been the past few years
does that mean I “like” Haley’s style/methods? nope! but I’m willing to see how it goes … that said, as DJ noted, we really DON’T know yet if Haley’s way will work – it might turn the team around, or it might drive the team right into the ground – time will tell
my last words on (and defense of Herm) – I’ll be the first to admit he was NOT a good gameday/sideline coach, not even close to good – but he did have the team playing damn hard for him last year, under crappy circumstances, and it really was his first and only year with HIS players (first two yrs he had King Carl’s players, not his) so in that sense, who knows what MIGHT have happened with more time, a good draft, TonyG and Gailey on board, etc etc – but as it is, yeah, Herm’s gone …
so please, people, stop trashing the guy now, ok? let’s all focus on NOW (and the rest of the year) and hope and pray this team DOES turn it around and win some games
nuff said
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
And I'll Say This In A Final Criticism Of Herm
I’ll be the first to admit he was NOT a good gameday/sideline coach, not even close to good – but he did have the team playing damn hard for him last year, under crappy circumstances
He may have been a really nice guy and a decent man, but he was one of the most clueless football coaches I ever saw and he was one of the biggest reasons last year that the circumstances were so crappy. His players were out of shape (which I noted during the season last year), they played undisciplined football, and few of the young players he kept touting showed an ounce of improvement under his coaching…in addition to him being a horrible gameday coach.
He had a coaching career of decent length…which probably ran about 3-4 years longer than it should have.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
and here I thought "we" were going to be nice from now on ;-)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Oh, And
I had serious doubts that he could have named the lineup of several of the teams he faced last year. Really…his teams showed up so woefully and obviously unprepared for games that I wondered if he watched much film at all during the week. I know for a fact that he didn’t do any preparation for the Tennessee game during the bye week last year (because he said so…he gave the team the week off after they got blown out). Clueless at every level.
Okay…now I’m done.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Wow! Did he really do that?
Didn’t prepare the team for what was the best team in the league at that time? No practice…nothing???
by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 26, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
He Started Doing Game Prep On The Saturday Following The Blowout By Carolina
Aside from (I assume) his team’s standard conditioning, he said in his press conference that he didn’t plan on watching any film or preparing for the Tennessee game until the following week. I was absolutely floored when I heard that…especially when teams love to use the bye week to get that extra edge on their next opponent by getting an extra week of prep (which has translated to bye week teams having better performanceS). He basically gave his team time off for getting humiliated on the field. And unsurprisingly the Chiefs got blown out by Tennessee too.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I remember that
That statement alone was when I lost the last shred hope and respect for him as HC. Not that I had much left at that point anyway. I was so pissed.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Mine Was The Raider Game
When you get 300 yards rushing run up on you by a team that can’t pass the ball, at home, then your coach didn’t prepare your team properly.
I meant it last year when I said that I didn’t think Herm could name the starting lineups of most of the teams the Chiefs faced…I think he really paid that little attention to game prep.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
yeah they played hard for him
because they knew when he got fired they would be out of work, which is where most of them are at now, the unemployment agency. face it herm and all his teams suck, and they sucked bad
I am ok with comparing to previous guys...
That is just what happens…
The thing that hurts more is tony being gone…
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
Matt Ryan is one lucky QB
TonyG – simply The Best – watch Falcons win tomorrow and TonyG scoring twice
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Tony was going to be gone someday anyway
At least we got something for him while we could.
Tony will always be a Chief.
Well yes...
I am not trying to re-hash the issue…just saying I could not care less about Herm….But seeing Tony play so far has actually been sucky…I cry on the inside…
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
I actually kinda like it (Tony G)
I must say the only reason I root for Atlanta at all is because Tony’s there. I’m glad he’s going to get a shot at a Championship, and I’m happy to see him off to a good start this season.
I would, of course, love it if Tony were still here – but part of me would hurt (just like it did the last two seasons) to watch him continue to be our Barry Sanders – an absolute stud at his position on a hapless team.
Like DJ said above – he will always be a Chief
by Ochophosphate on Sep 26, 2009 3:24 AM CDT up reply actions
"he will always be a Chief" X 2
No . . . guys, now he’s a Falcon. What he will “always be” will be decided in Canton. And if his plan works, and the Falcons take him (or vice versa) to the SB, then I’m guessing he’ll always be a Falcon . . .
To will be a Falcon
in the same way Joe Montana was a Chief.
You wear the uniform; you carry yourself like a professional; and when your career ends, you go back to the team you spent your best years with.
The Kansas City Chief's 2009 record will be 5-11.
I seem to remember
reading in another post on here that players are not inducted “on” a team. They are inducted as individuals.
At first I hated the Tony trade.
Then After I thought about it I was OK with it, because like you said at least we got something. Now that I see how good Atlanta is I hate the trade again, It is going to be a very late 2nd round pick and unless you get lucky those picks aren’t game changers in their first year. Also we are last in the league on 3rd down conversions. Just think how many drives Tony would have kept alive.
Cassel has something to prove 3TD's against Eagles
by bringbacktheglory on Sep 26, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
My prime reason for being ok with trady TG
was that I figured he was going to be a pissy complainer (I don’t like it but also don’t blame him much) like LJ. It was time to get rid of anyone that would do that. I’m still amazed at LJ apparent transformation – hope it lasts.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
I would've traded Tony years ago.
This was one year when his price tag wasn’t limiting the team in any regard.
But he’d’ve been a likely source of cancer, especially with Haley in his ear, wanting more YAC.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I wonder how many people would be in Haley's corner if...
It was Haley vs TG instead of Haley vs waters… I can’t imagine too many people giving him a pass if he pissed a guy off that had been the face of KC for years.
That would be true
Haley loses if it is vs Gonzalez
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 26, 2009 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Herm
Was a disgrace of a coach. And Peterson did him no favors. What this is about is Herm is a nice man. No one wants to criticize such a nice guy. Herm hurt careers with his poor coaching staff, no discipline, no conditioning and no accountability.
He was on his way to ruining Glenn Dorsey just like he was ruining D. Bowe.
But, he’s a nice man.
Herm won’t coach again in the NFL. I let Herm go a long time ago. But I can’t get back all the times I watched and attended games when he was the coach. That makes me angry at him and the media. The KC media likes nice men. I like demanding coaches who set the bar high…….in high school, college and the pros.
I have been calling for Herm's head ever since the playoff game vs the Colts.
That was the most pathetic display I have ever seen from any “playoff” team ever. That game was a disgrace to all things Chiefs.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 26, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
No, Herm
You can’t get away.
To the last, I will grapple with thee… from Hell’s heart, I stab at thee! For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee!
/Wrath of Khan
Excellent Post!
What I would like to caution against, however, is that we do not delude ourselves into accepting inferior performance just because it’s different, though not necessarily better, than what we had previously.
Most of AP would have died from an aneurysm if Herm had allowed a half to expire without a FG attempt, or they had witnessed Time Out fiasco from game 1. I haven’t witnessed Haley being a better game manager than Edwards.
As I’ve said before, if you think anyone is an improvement over Herm, ask Jets fans about Mangini. Haley has potential and hs’s fighting an uphill battle, but his success is not preordained, nor is he infallible.
Haley's game managment
Right now I’m willing to blame that partially on him being a rookie head coach and partially on his taking on too much responsibility as the offensive coordinator.
HOPEFULLY that will improve in time once he gets settled into everything, but we’ll just have to wait and see.
I wanted to blame the OC for the call...
or the QB coach for not teaching Cassel to throw it away…
Nevermind.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Sep 26, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Cassel should have known better.
I like him but, that was a bonehead mistake.
In regards to Haley, I think this team appears to be better. No, we haven’t won a game yet but the appearance of the team is much better on both sides of the ball. Especially on defense. I think the offense will come around and I already think the overall style of offense will be more balanced and effective. We looked a lot better last week against a decent Oakland defense (not great but, pretty good) and we will only get better as the year goes on.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 26, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I got the sense, for the first time in years, that 3rd and 8 wasn't utterly impossible.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Yet Haley does the same thing Herm and nearly every other NFL coach does on 3rd and long
Either run a draw or a screen pass.
It amazes me how much people let their feelings about coaches or player cloud their perception of reality.
The Chiefs are the worst team in the league in converting 3rd downs and yet you have “the sense” that 3rd and long isn’t impossible.
Hopefully
Haley will realize that coaching is a team effort that requires an individual to overcome the desire for control and delegate authority.
Case in point, Bill Parcells’ greatest years came when he had Bill Belichick working for him. Do you think Belichick is the kind of guy who blindly followed the head coach’s every decision and didn’t think for himself? And quite a few of Parcells’ assistants ended up being head coaches elsewhere…going off their pre-Chiefs results, how many of the guys Haley picked do people think are even going to be considered for head coaching positions? Because I don’t see a single viable candidate on the list. Pendergast? No. Gibbs? No. Carthon? No. Muir? No. Ward? No. It looks more like a roster assembled for loyalty to the coach than for anything they bring to the table football-wise.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
We do have to remember
That Haley was an EXTREMELY late hire because of the Super Bowl and that he had a very limited pool of assistants to choose from.
Do we really believe Tim Krumrie deserved to stay on as Defensive Line Coach after the lack of results we’ve seen the past few years?
I’m sure that there were a lot of better qualified coaching candidates out there that Haley would have liked to have had on his team but that had already taken jobs elsewhere.
Honestly I’m not totally convinced that Haley himself would have been really considered “ready” to be a head coach if he hadn’t been one of the few guys still available by the time Pioli came on board and decided he was ready to hire someone.
Maybe but, I don't think so.
Pioli and Haley know each other VERY well. I think Pioli believes that Haley is the right guy for this job as of right now. At this point, I don’t see any reason to believe otherwise other than a couple of rookie mistakes.
This team was TERRIBLE and had been utterly destroyed by the last regime. Our team is playing much better overall on both sides of the ball and I feel like all the changes that have occurred will lead to a winning team.
As of right now, we are EXACTLY where any realistic person would expect us to be.(other than the game we SHOULD have won last week) We are a team with middle of the road talent and some GLARING holes that need to be filled. I still believe that by mid-season, we will be kicking the crap out of teams and making them look bad. By next season, we will be a playoff contender. By the season after that, we will be a legit contender for a Super Bowl berth.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 26, 2009 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
That's His Mulligan
And if the Chiefs stink all year and he upgrades the staff, I’ll be willing to give him a pass on it.
But removing Gailey as OC right before the season just so he could take on three full-time jobs tells me that a lot of his hiring choices were more about control than results.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Disagree.
But your BS is in alignment with most of the available facts.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
It's Certainly Speculative
But that’s my analysis and I’m sticking to it. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
What what!?!?! Herm isn't our coach... WHY WASNT I INFORMED!!!
I thought Herm just had his skin bleached to confuse us.
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
by averagegatsby on Sep 26, 2009 7:51 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
2 Seasons
That’s how long I’m willing to wait and see what Haley is like as a HC. I gave Herm 3 and he didn’t make it that far. Herm was what His record said he was it is just that simple. As far as style of coaching goes yes I would rather work for a herm type because I wouldn’t be worried about my job as much if I messed up. On the other hand when I’m in charge I’m more like Haley is I don’t accept mistakes that keep happening and I get pissed when my crew doesn’t seem to give a shit.
As for the President issue goes it seems to me that if you can get yourself elected to the office you probably are not the best person for the job. I greatly dislike that the media has more to do with the elections than real people do. Personally I think it would be interesting as hell to see Ted Nugent as President just to scare the hell out of the rest of the world. But I’m strange that way I like the way he honors our Vets.
Before making blanket statements on the Coach, put yourself in his place and think what you would be like with players that make more than you do and not by just a little, the press all in your shit second guessing everything you do, and a fan base that wants to win it all NOW. I’m guessing you would not be all Zen like all the time. Just something to think about as I wait and see what really happens and not trying to see the future. Give Haley a chance nothing worth while happens over night.
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!
As A Football Fan, I Tend To Favor The High-Pressure Coaches
Mainly because they keep players on edge and constantly competing to improve.
There is, however, a difference between a hard-nosed coach who pushes his players to get better or he’ll dump them (e.g. Belichick, Parcells, Jimmy Johnson, Don Shula, Vince Lombardi) and an abusive coach that the players write off as an insufferable, incompetent prick (e.g. Mike Nolan, Scott Linehan). Haley so far seems to butting right up against that line. I’d say that his story was a bit similar to Jimmy Johnson’s, but then at least Johnson had some very successful years of being a head coach elsewhere and showed he knew how to identify NFL-caliber talent (at Miami). Haley doesn’t even have that to fall back on. Plus, Johnson fired assistant coaches who didn’t get him results…he held everyone’s feet to the fire.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
not gonna miss my chance to throw a shot at Germ...
He successfully gutted our offense, which was top 5 at one time, he traded away our best return guy for a 5th round pick, then drafted a kicker (i believe) which is no longer on the team….matter of fact, how many of his draft picks ever worked out? Oh, yeah…and cant forget he traded away our best pass rusher since DDT just to grab Albert when they could have gotten Clady which has proven to be better…after all that, we get the enjoyment of listening to his opinion on ESPN…..
Not defending Herm
but there are some things wrong with what you said. He didn’t really gut the offense. It was pretty much done for anyway. He had a back up Qb when Trent went down, no real receivers other than Tony. He rode Larry to the playoffs and I have to hand it to him, given how bad things could have gone that year, he did alright. He should have stuck with Huard though, he had the hot hand.
Dante was finished and hadn’t done anything in 2 years or since for that matter. It sucks we still don’t have a returner but getting a 5th for Hall at that point wasn’t a terrible move. The mistake was that they didn’t have a replacement.
I hate the Allen trade. Always have and always will. But didn’t Clady go before Albert? I remember that he Ciefs liked Clady but weren’t able to get him. Of course they could have taken him instead of Dorsey but that would have been considered an insane reach at the time, however if Dorsey continues to improve he may even things out.
Tynes wasn’t a great kicker but he wasn’t terrible…probably should have stuck with him.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Sep 26, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah I checked
Clady was taken 12th overall.
I wonder what would have happened if the Chiefs traded back and passed on Dorsey and had taken Clady for LT and then Albert for RT…
I’d give up Dorsey for that line in a second.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Sep 26, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Bottom Line
almost every coach fails. It is what it is. The ultimate goal is the Super Bowl, and 97% of teams fail to reach that goal. Herm had excuses for his poor performance, as Vermiel did before him. Going into a season we must realize just how rare it is for us, as fans, to get what we want. I’m sure that the lifelong KC fans realize this more than most. Right now, I simply dream of respectability. I want KC to be relevant. But once that happens, I’m going to thirst for playoffs, then a Super Bowl. Hopefully it will happen soon, but as a fan I’m never truly satisfied unless my team wins the big game.
On a side note, I believe that the bigger change for our team is the Peterson to Pioli transfer of power. I feel that our biggest problem was the way our team was run, not necessarily the way they play.
No Question!
We are so much better & well positioned than any Herm team. It irritates me to death that there is so much criticism of Haley. Haley is already head & shoulders better, he will be an excellent HC. Herm is gone…cross the bridge. Chiefs are going to surprise the Birds this weekend. Look at the offense & def. improvement since the Ravens. Not a fluke.
by casselreadychiefs on Sep 26, 2009 9:29 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
My Final Word on Herm
I thought he would suck from day 1 because of this:
1. Jets fans hated him and wanted to run him out of town anyway – we already knew all his shortcomings from this record.
2. We gave up a draft pick to take him from NY which is incredibly stupid (on King Carl)
3. He was mostly hired because he was a buddy of King Carl – not on any kind of record of success.
4. He believed the offense should be rooted in schemes from the 1930s.
Good riddance. Done.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
Herm and Haley
I wanted Herm gone so bad I could taste it, he was inept. That said I believe Haley is inept and an ass and an ego manic. Rookie head coach is enough without HC/OC/QBC. He should have stripped Gailey of playcalling and retained as QB coach. I thought he would fail from game two
Give Haley a chance
I lived in Cleveland when Belichick coached the Browns. The media and fans couldn’t wait to get rid of the guy. I would imagine that any Browns backer would like to have him back now, given the current state of affairs on the banks of the Cuyahoga. Other than the raspy voice I hear, Haley sounds a LOT like Belichick did at the time. I was not sure Herm was doing such a bad job given his situation until I started to read some of the comments about conditioning and related that to what I saw in the 4th quarter all year long last year.
I think we need to give this guy a chance, and let him grow into the job. He’s coached all of two regular season games at this point, and he has a really good football background. We were tied with the Ravens with two minutes to go. We mostly outplayed the Raiders last week. Yeah we lost them both, but how many of us were experts in our careers two weeks after we started?
I for one think some patience is in order with the guy. If he doesn’t learn from those mistakes (I think most would agree Belichick seems to have learned from the mistakes he made in Cleveland) then be rightfully critical. But let’s give this guy a chance.
Belichick And The Browns
The primary reason for his failure in Cleveland was Art Modell, who did an excellent job of running that team into the ground. And Belichick quit when the Browns decided to move to Baltimore…he wasn’t fired.
I think we need to give this guy a chance, and let him grow into the job.
I think that most of the people on these boards are willing to do that. I’ve seen very few people calling for him to be fired and most seem willing to give him a couple of years to get on track. What they’re not willing to do is give him a couple of criticism/scrutiny-free years…nor is he (or any other coach) entitled to that. That’s just part of being a football coach, fans voicing their opinions on what the coach does.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Long-time Chiefs fan, devoted cynic, merciless enemy of mediocrity
Wow, I only just now realized that you are also the most interesting man in the world!
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
I Love Those Commercials
He is my personal god. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Pity That His Beer Sucks
I’ve tried to develop a taste for it, but I think Dos Equis is swill.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Dos Equis or Nego Modelo is exactly the beer if you're having a HOT Tex-Mex meal.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I Had Tex-Mex And Dos Equis Last Week
It was still horrible. I had a different Mexican beer on my next go and that was much more enjoyable. Can’t remember the name off the top of my head.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I like that I can basically drink dos equis
like water because well… I think it is just water, although it is nice to have something like that sitting on a beach in mexico instead of something heavier.
That's About The Only Scenario I Can Envision Liking It
But even then I’d rather have a Corona.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Belichick
I agree that Modell ran the team into the ground, but Belichick did quite a bit himself to create issues, even absent Modell. The Belichick that was in Cleveland was even LESS communicative than now, and was even more abrasive to practically everyone. He was under fire from fans and the media even before the announcment the team was moving. If you look at what he said in public back then I think it’s pretty similar to the way Haley expresses himself now. My main point was that we shouldn’t expect miracle changes after a couple of games, as the guy is still learning how to be a head coach. I’m not willing to give him two years of free time either.
I never said he was fired (but he actually was fired). His team gave up on him after the announcement. It was pretty ugly.
Belichick Fired By Modell
15-Feb-1996, Associated Press
“Art Modell needs to find a new coach. Modell, owner of the Baltimore NFL franchise formerly known as the Cleveland Browns, fired coach Bill Belichick on Wednesday…. The Browns went 5-11 last season, losing seven of their final eight games after Modell announced his intention to take the franchise to Baltimore…. In a statement, Belichick, 43, expressed his gratitude to the Browns organization. ‘This team has an excellent future and I wish them well,’ Belichick said. ‘I will review my options with regard to my future in the NFL.’”
I think its pretty typical of coaches to start the job out with one idea of how things should be and how they should be done based on theory when he’s not a head coach and then to change that philosophy after he has spent time in the reality.
Haley is being an over the top, impossible to please hardass control freak right now because that is how he has thought a head coach should be before he was one.
If Haley is still head coaching in three or four years, however, I would expect to see that attitude mellow out a bit and be adjusted. He likely will still be a hardass, but he will have learned not to roll his eyes and scream at every little mistake. He will HAVE to learn to delegate.
These are just some of the realities of being a head coach that differ from the theory thought up by someone who hadn’t been one before.
If Haley is not able to compromise and adjust his philosophy to meet reality, he will not last long.
Well Stated
I suspect that Haley’s first season as head coach will be imparting some very harsh lessons to him on his expectations and approach. Hopefully he will learn from it and grow.
And if not…well, plenty of other fish in the sea who want to be head coaches in the NFL.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
And You May Be Right
I remember the Cleveland years but didn’t follow the team that closely. Belichick may have softened or changed his approach quite a bit the second time around.
But that Cleveland job was just a no-win situation for any coach I suspect. Couldn’t believe they ran Schottenheimer out of town (not that it didn’t make me happy, since he ended up in KC).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Can't forget Herm yet
Too much of this team is still a product of his failures. I will be glad in a year or two when we can truly forget Herm.
Isn't that the quandry for the people that blame Herm for everything though?
If a new coach comes in and has no more success with the team than Herm did because there is a lack of talent, that suddenly throws into question the “Herm is the worst coach in the world” theory because if there was no talent there (which I maintain was the reason we were going 2-14 with Herm instead of 8-8 or 9-7 that he did with better teams) and a coach with a different philosophy can’t get anymore out of them then how can you legitimately say Herm was the worst coach we ever had and “destroyed the team”?
On the other hand, if Haley takes the building blocks that were laid while Herm was here (Bowe, Flowers, Albert, Hali, Carr, Page, Leggett, etc.) and they succeed, then that again leads us back to Herm not being such a terrible talent evaluator after all and that talent was brought onto the team but needed time to evaluate.
Of course I don’t expect any of the hardcore anti-Herm guys to ever admit to any of this.
talent was brought onto the team but needed time to evaluate.
Meant to say:
“needed time to develop”
maybe Herm is good at talent evaluation (maybe only on defense side)
but that doesn’t at all make him a good coach – he was horrific in every way it seems to me
oops, I thought I had said my last word on this fellow
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
I Think Last Year Was A Case Of Young Talent Being Egregiously Misused
So far this year, I think it’s been a case of young talent being written off by arrogance and discarded because the current coaching staff isn’t interested in trying to be successful with “someone else’s” players. Also, I think the head coach is in over his head because he couldn’t keep his tendencies to micromanage under control so now he’s got three full time jobs.
Herm was still a horrible head coach, though, and this team should have been much better last year than what he got out of them.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
It's Not Necessarily An Either Or Proposition
Both coaching regimes can be handling things incompetently…Haley failing with the players Herm had does not necessarily mean that Herm got the most out of the talent he had. Haley could simply be screwing the pooch in different ways.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Has anybody even talked to Herm?
I mean, shouldn’t somebody at least call him and see where he’s at?
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