Todd Haley and sport psychology
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 22, 2009 8:51 PM CDT
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I really loved Paddy's "Damn Todd Haley" post (especially the ending: "kiss my ass"). But in the comments there was that usual complaining about how Haley is a mean man and yells too much. This was way too long to post there, so here it is.
I used to coach sports and I used to teach a class on sport psychology, so allow me to defend Haley's intensity with a little bit of information about arousal. First of all I am not talking about sexual arousal, thought that would be fun to talk about. In sport psych, "arousal" refers to a person's readiness to perform physically in competition. Sorry to disappoint.
According to arousal theory, increased levels of arousal lead to greater performance in competition and there is an optimal level or arousal that equates optimal performance*. The level of arousal needed to compete at the highest level depends on the intensity level of the sport. Football is a very physically intense game so it requires a very high level of physical arousal to achieve optimal performance. Conversely, playing a game of golf does not require the same level of arousal to achieve ultimate performance.
This is why in warm-ups you will see football players butt heads or slap each other around -- they get to the place they need to be in order to perform at the highest level. And, yes, this is why coaches will yell at players. You know what happens when you get yelled at? It affects the body, it causes your body to release adrenalin which leads to a higher level of arousal which leads to greater performance. It induces fight or flight syndrome.
Coaches yell. They have for centuries and it turns out there is a scientifically provable positive on-field result from it.
Do people not watch other sports? Or other football coaches? I am not sure how people how arrive at this place of delusion where they think Todd Haley is the only coach (or supervisor, for that matter) who yells.
I went to Chiefs training camp in River Falls back in the early 90s and heard Al Saunders call a player a "son of a fuck" loud enough everybody in the stand could hear it. First of all, I'm not sure I know what a son of a fuck even is. Second, he yelled. He swore. In public. Loud enough spectators could hear it. Third, does anybody really want to debate Al Saunders' value as a football coach?
When Marty coached the Redskins for a season, the players bitched that he was way too intense with them. Anybody want to argue Marty's value as a football coach? Also, Dan Snyder fired Marty so he could hire Steve Spurrier. Dan Snyder is the stupidest man in the NFL.
Anybody remember Hal MacRae's locker room tirade? If I remember correctly he invented swear words and threw a telephone. Anybody remember that right after that incident the Royals went on the longest winning streak in franchise history? And of course the Royals did one of the long line of recent stupid decisions by firing MacRae because he wasn't liked by the fans.
One of the coaches I used to work with would tell players to worry if he stopped yelling at them. He said if he stopped yelling it meant he had given up on them and wasn't going to waste the energy on them. By yelling he was showing that he cared about them being the best they could be.
Coaches yell. Get used to it, folks.
*There is also a drop off. If an athlete is overly aroused, performance decreases. Coaches and players must be wary of this. And I think Haley has shown he will turn the dial down when he needs to and take the team bowling.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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When I played,
if the coaches were not yelling, I thought I was not liked.:)
We have to run the gauntlet over the next few weeks, we will be better for it. Pioli is not done with the roster, he will improve it. LJ is getting ready to start whining again.
Same here
my philosophy in high school and now in college is, if the coach isn’t yelling at you he thinks you’ve either peaked or not worth the time
Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.
Well thank all three of you
My coach never said a word to me and I sat on the bench. Now I know :(
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 22, 2009 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions
hahah
unless your not joking then :(
Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.
i don't know about anything you just said but
i pointed out in the game day thread that haley may be the first to yell at you for messing up but he is also the first guy to tell you when you do a good job. players recognize that. i promise
Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day.
Harry S. Truman
Yes they do. And the scientific research backs it up
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Does that keep the Arousal up or just normal everyone likes to be Stroked :)
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 22, 2009 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions
they say...
Those you can’t…. coach….. Anyway, if at this level of football, you’re not able to get up on your own, you don’t deserve to be making a paycheck playing football. Football is a physcially demanding games, but it’s also a game that requires thought processes beyond a fight or flight response when you get “hyped.” Above all else we need to remember that these Men are professionals and not boys. It’s a completely different level. It’s a job.
Either way, we’ll see how well that crap works through the rest of the season. Yelling and cussing and flipping out can work if you’re winning, but players just look at you like you’re stupid if you’re not winning
If I were coaching adults I would have much less of a filter than I would if I were working with kids.
Yes, these guys are pros, they should be able to get themselves where they need to be physically and psychologically for to compete. But that’s why teams have coaches at the pro level — because no matter how long you’ve done it you still need somebody to put their foot in your ass from time to time.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 22, 2009 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
rec
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 22, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
rec from me too
Just think how dead AP would be if every job had a coach watching your every move, you all know who you are that spend time on here when you should be working.
Herm is gone things are better with that one move!!
by bringbacktheglory on Sep 22, 2009 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions
very true
and honesty with how America idolizes football players a lot of these kids have ridden their talent to get everything in life easy and expect it to continue in the NFL. They get a shocker when they realize talent isn’t enough at this level, these are usually the ones who run their mouths off.
Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.
That’s all fine and dandy but Haley came to a place that needed a 100% turn around in culture. For the most part, the players are all in the beginning of their careers and had gotten used to Herm’s way of playing paddy cake and hugging it out.
Haley comes from the Parcell’s coaching tree. He has seen first hand how to be successful using this approach. Give it a while before you continually bash the man for his coaching style.
You wouldn't make it in my world
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Didn't Herm used to talk
about how pro football players should know what they need to do to get in shape for the season, and study for each weeks opponents, etc., etc.? That obviously didn’t work out too well since all of them were over-weight, out of shape, and not mentally prepared to compete at the professional level.
I’ll admit that there definitely are some individuals that are extremely driven and don’t need someone to hype them up when it comes time to compete (Peyton Manning, Tony G, Ray Lewis). But for the other 99% of the league, if there isn’t someone there to push them, coach them, and rip into them whenever they need it, then they’re going to slack off and not perform to their potential.
Pioli says the team got fatter as the season progressed last year.
He said that if you watch film you can see the players getting fatter game to game.
By this logic, why does any of us need a boss or supervisor at your job? Do we really need somebody to tell us what to do? We are grown men. We are professionals in our work place.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
The reasons for needing a boss are numerous
but some my personal favorites are:
- most people are not self starters
- people naturally want something for nothing
- people typically over-inflate their sense of self worth and develop a false/unwarranted sense of entitlement
- someone has to remember the plan
If you don’t think a bunch of millionaire athletes don’t need a fire lit under their asses you’re nuts.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Do you really believe all this horshit
Or just like to stir the pot and see what comes out?
I think you actually prove Slappys’ point.
You arouse the commenters to respond to YOU.
Yet , Get mad when we prove your’e wrong and try to just outlast the return fire.
Wearing out the competition on an evening only gets you another AP member that will not respond to you anymore. Thank God, This is the largest community to pick on so you can play for another month before you have to find another team to grouse on.
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 22, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions
The thing that becomes a problem is
That people extrapolate ideas, then that’s when I feel the need to defend myself. This time, people have expanded the idea so far that people believe I’ve said there’s no need for a boss. That’s ridiculous.
It isn’t a matter of just a yelling coach or a chill coach…. it’s introducing this kind of crap into a losing ballclub. Players will quit on you. That was the only point I ever wanted to get across, I have no idea how anyone can prove an opinion wrong, There are no stats either way to back up whether or not Todd Haley can be successful in this culture using his methods.
I tried to let all this crap die a week or so ago, but posts keep popping up anatagonizing me. Yet you don’t want to hear what I have to say. Steve, you’re obviously someone that doesn’t understand how to have an intellegent conversation. If you have an opinion, it’s right, or if you agree with the majority, you must be right… you’re pathetic
If these players quit on Haley then they should be replaced.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 22, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
you can only replace so many players
At some point you look at a series of confrontations and problems and ask yourself what the common demnominator is.
IF WE ARE WINNING I DON’T GIVE A SHIT IF HE WHIPS PLAYERS. HE JUST HAD TO DEMONSTRATE THE ABILITY TO WIN FOR ME TO GET OFF HIS BACK.
Winning cures everything. I don’t see that the culture in KC has changed all that much winning or not winning will be the only way to prove or disprove any of my theories
If these player quit because he yells at them they are pussies.
How can they compete in a game if getting yelled at bugs them so much?
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 22, 2009 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
so wait...
first you say it’s not professional for him to yell and drop F-bombs, you complain that you have young kids watching. and then you say if he wins you don’t care about it
which is it? I’m confused
by midmochieffan on Sep 22, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions
There is no logic. Callmesir is arguing from a point of subjectivity and facts won't change his mind.
He doesn’t like Haley’s demeanor. It’s his right to not like Haley’s demeanor. But his arguments are all based on the premise of “I wouldn’t want Haley to yell at me” and not in any kind of actual fact. Like take this fact, for instance. Kurt Warner says Haley’s absence has been a hindrance to Arizona’s offense so far this year. Now I will quote Mr. Warner:
“He was very much a vocal, in-your-face, challenging type coach that would really push guys,” Warner said. “Sometimes that would show itself in anger and frustration, guys yelling at each other on the sidelines, but the one thing I appreciated about Todd was, he pushed us to be great …. I’m sure all of this is going to get worked out. But it has only been a few weeks in game-type situations as these new coaches have taken over and it is a bit of a feeling-out process. We have to work through that.”
Six words stand out: “He pushed us to be great.”
That’s a fact. Warner says Haley pushed them to be great and they are struggling to find their footing without him there.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 22, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
not to mention...
Warner is about a Christian as they come and he seems to understad that words are just words
seriously these are grown men…not children
by midmochieffan on Sep 22, 2009 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions
That's the first time
I’ve seen that quote and by god if that’s not a ringing endorsment of his coaching style I don’t know what is… Hey maybe it works….
But it’s a time tested method that you praise in public and discipline in private. that’s managment 101, because when you publicly humiliate someone they lose respect for you, and will not work as hard as they could for you.
It's hard not to publicly humiliate somebody when 80,000 people are watching, with millions more watching on TV.
What’s Haley supposed to do? Call time out, take the player into the locker room, yell at him there, and then go back to the game?
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 23, 2009 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions
In this world there are dicks, pussies, and assholes. Which one are you?
I think you are way off. I know when i got yelled at in front of a bunch of people i damn well made sure i didn’t fuck up again. I didn’t quit like a pussy. Your managment 101 is way off base.
Don't blame me, I voted for content of character.
It's absoloutly not.
I think you need to go back to pldc if you don’t understand fundemental leadership skills.
People argue that they’re professionals so they should suck it up.
I say they’re professionals, treat them as such.
You are comparing cubicle life of office drones to professional football? Wow.
They are apples and oranges. Seriously, dude, to compare football to working in an office is just ridiculous.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Just because
someone doesn’t work in an office doesn’t mean fudemental ideas on functionality don’t apply. not everyone is hardwired like a soldier, it took alot of years of undoing and alot of failed relationships, public and private to realize it’s not the way to go.
Either it’s a buisness or it isn’t…. basic managment priciples don’t change based on where you work.
another fucktard
That can’t seem to get the point… quit nitpicking words…..
I may be more sensitive to cussing because I have a small child. My issue with his cussing isn’t so much that it happens, but that it isn’t something that will contribute to the chiefs winning, If you’re losing and your coach is berating you on national television, then you’re going to quit on him, or at the very least, everything he’s saying is going to go in one ear and out the other.
Prove it. You make a statement and then have no evidence or example to back it up.
“If you’re losing and your coach is berating you on national television, then you’re going to quit on him, or at the very least, everything he’s saying is going to go in one ear and out the other.”
Those are your words. Defend them. Give me an example of when this happened? Did the Arizona offense quit on Haley? They lost until last season. If you’re going to make a point then offer up some facts to prove it.
Just because you would quit on Haley if he yelled at you doesn’t mean everybody else would quit on him.
How are there even players in the NFL? They ALL get berated on national television. It’s a wonder any of these poor sensitive men are able to not break down into weeping girls during games.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 23, 2009 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions
It's
pretty simple managment 101, people don’t work hard for someone they don’t respect, especially if they have guarenteed money.
in the same vein...
you want me to prove that this happens, but you can’t disprove that it happens either.
But you're the one whose saying it's true!
Jesus Christ, man. It’s your argument! The burden of proof falls on you!
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 23, 2009 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions
How about you disprove it....
I don’t need a whole lot more than his disrespectful attitude toward brian waters and that stupid ass comment about 22 players off the street to know todd haley is an arrogant prick.
Debate 101
Here’s how a debate works: you have a point. And then it’s your responsibility to prove your position. It’s not my job to prove you wrong. You are saying Haley’s yelling and cursing at this players will cause them to quit on him. Okay. Fine. That’s your point. Now it’s up to you to prove it. Have Haley coached units or teams quit on him before? Are there any examples of that? Did the Cowboys receivers quit on him? No. In fact Jerry Jones interviewed Haley for the head coaching position. Did the Cardinals offense quit on him? No. And they used to be a losing team when he started there. He yelled at them when they were losing and they didn’t quit. Hell the offense played well enough to win the fucking Superbowl.
This is really your point: for whatever reason you think Haley is an asshole. That’s fine. He may be an asshole. I don’t know. I’ve never met him. I have met Herm Edwards and from what I can tell Herm is a consummate gentleman. Herm also has a career winning percentage that is well below .500.
So you can say you think Haley is a prick and you wouldn’t want to play for him despite endorsements from Warner, Boldin and Fitzgerald. That’s ultimately your point.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Would an arrogant prick take so much responsibility for the losses...
I watched all of Haley’s press conferences concerning the last two games and he took full responsiblity for time outs being called early, the last play of the the first half, and the penalties that plagued the offense.
Don’t see how everyone thinks this guy is so arrogant. Nobody close to him has ever accused him of that. Only the fat reporter and his followers. And even fat man is changing his tune.
And if you'll recall, Herm never took any responsibility for anything.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
I am not taking any side in this debate but I want to propose a couple of points to consider.
Sir, you mention being more sensitive to cussing since you have a young child. I can understand that but to be honest that is a moot point. You cannot keep that child in a bubble because the ‘F’ word and more is a part of our vernacular. If they do not hear it from adults around them they will from television/movies/music and most definitely hear it from other children once they begin to go to school. It is all around us and it will not go away.
Let me add that another reason that I am putting this up. Though maybe upset, you went against your own doctrine.
“I may be more sensitive to cussing …”
“when you publicly humiliate someone they lose respect for you…”
“another fucktard”
From an outside observer, well, me anyway, it comes across as hypocritical and that negates your stance and message.
You have a right to your opinion but there must be consistency for it to be taken seriously by others.
"There are few secrets in football. So execute." ~Coach Stram
"I think it's the fans. The place is crazy. It's a good crazy, if you're Kansas City." ~Coach Schottenheimer
by Bad Medicine on Sep 23, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
At some point you look at a series of confrontations and problems and ask yourself what the common demnominator is.
What problems? How many players have complained about Haley?
You’ve given him two games and said the culture hasn’t changed. Shouldn’t you wait at least a few more weeks before you come to a conclusion?
Why do you give a shit if Haley cusses and yells at his players?
If the result is an improvement, aren’t you satisfied with that as a fan? Or is it that you don’t see improvement? Hell man, did you think we’d come out swingin’ and be on top of the world? This team has been so bad for so long, the improvements are only going to come incrementally. If the coach has to yell and scream to make his point, so what? I agree that there is a certain level of urgency to produce some wins. If we go 0-6 or 7, no amount of yelling or good guy talk will save the morale of this team. I don’t think one approach is better than the other. What matters is the team improves enough to net a few W’s. In two weeks, we’ve seen some improvements, but we’re also watching a team that is so raw and inexperience that they haven’t pulled one out. They will… eventually. Give it a little time.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
What kind of coach do you want?
We all know how the buddy type coach turned out for us. So it’s time for the hard ass coach, but it’s not like he is a hard ass all the time. When DJ made that int, Haley was the one waiting for him on the side lines to give him his props. And I have seen that a lot, when someone does something good Haley is always the first one to tell them.
Herm is gone things are better with that one move!!
by bringbacktheglory on Sep 22, 2009 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Yup
I think Haley has some refinements to make, but overall, he looks to be a promising HC.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
And I think Haley's owning up to his mistakes Sunday means he will make those refinements.
Couldn’t agree more.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Sep 23, 2009 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
admission = acknowledgement
no shit sherlock. At least he knows it, admits it and will work on fixing it. WTF do you want? Jesus at the helm?
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
If Jesus was the coach
and got the team to walk on water, people would then complain that they didn’t know how to swim.
It’s a no win, even for Buddy Christ.
by bansky on Sep 23, 2009 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What happened to us???
There was a time when people used to be able to argue different opinions without reverting to childish personal attacks. People making coments that will only fuel the fire, and then others return fire by calling someone “pathetic”. We are supposed to be on the same team here. This is low, we are/should be better than this.
This site is a wonderful place and it deserves to be treated with respect. This includes respecting each other.
by BeijingKCfan on Sep 23, 2009 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions
This is not intelligent conversation, callmesir. It's antagonistic b.s.
Steve, you’re obviously someone that doesn’t understand how to have an intellegent conversation.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I can think of numerous things that will support the fact that his style is working.
Bowe has shown HUGE improvement since his “demotion”
Croyle played a very good game after haley chewed his ass on the sideline.
DJ is playing better since his “demotion”
Waters has not made any more statements regarding his unhappiness with the new regime.
The entire team has lost weight and seems to be in much better shape.
The entire receiving corp has improved immensely.
All those things are facts that can support my opinion. the only support in the other direction is speculation that has NOT occurred at this point. haley will not lose this team. They will play harder and do their jobs and become the winning franchise their fans deserve.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Sep 23, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm constantly reffered to as the antagonist, yet...
I’m the one that tried to let all of this go a couple of weeks ago, yet posts keep popping up reffering back to original principles that I brought up in an old fanpost, obviously trying to bait someone into a conversation, I think I’m just taking the brunt of it. I’m sure other people feel similar to the way I do concerning haley, but would rather not be talked to the way the majority of AP posters have talked to me. There are other people that obviously still want to talk about the subject, otherwise they’d let it die, and move on to posting something more worthwhile. We won’t know if any of my arguments have any merit untill he wins or loses so we continue to hash out the same crap.
Let me see if I am getting this straight:
You think people are writing fanposts simply as a means of baiting you into a conversation and yet you think Todd Haley is arrogant?
“yet posts keep popping up reffering back to original principles that I brought up in an old fanpost, obviously trying to bait someone into a conversation”
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Do you really want to keep going with this?
The only thing I’m saying is that people are calling me a troll or an antagonist but I was willing to drop it a long time ago… yet people… like yourself feel the need to continue the conversation… obviously someone wants to talk about it…. Maybe I am arrogant, but that arrogance isn’t something that seeps into my professional life. I run a system of labs for the mercy health system and supervise a much larger group of people than he does, and my job means lfe and death for some people, yet, I’ve never looked at someone in the eye while they are working at said what the fuck is wrong with you… especially if I couldn’t do the job myself… Let’s not forget, he couldn’t ever do the job himself.
"Yelling" Coaches.
There is defininetly only 2 types of coaches. Chill coaches, and screaming coaches. Chill Coach = Tony Dungy. Screaming coach = Bill Cowher. For people that are only Chiefs fans and don’t watch football, Chill Coach = Herm, Yelling Coach = Marty.
Lets look at the last 10 SB winning coaches which will undoubtedly prove my hypothesis that Yelling coaches are better than Chill coaches.
Mike Tomlin = Chill
Tom Coughlin = Yeller
Tony Dungy = Chill
Hoodie = Chill
Jon Gruden = Yeller, but inherited a Chill Coaches team
Brian Billick = Yeller
Dick Vermeil = Yeller
Mike Shanahan = Yeller
Mike Holmgren = Yeller
Barry Switzer = Yeller
This means without a shadow of a doubt that yelling coaches are 70% more likely to win a superbowl (discounting the fact the Hoodie won 3 SB’s as a chill coach because he is a cheating rat bastard)
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 22, 2009 9:13 PM CDT reply actions
I forgot Bill Cowher which is the biggest screamer of them all.
RIP Bodhi - Not tragic to die doing what you love. You want the ultimate thrill, you gotta be willing to pay the ultimate price.
by craig in calgary on Sep 22, 2009 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions
And when did Chill Bill come into being?
When he had the players he wanted. Bill was no Chill earlier in his career.
More Kill Bill :)
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 22, 2009 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Coach Haley
“There’s some quiet-leader coaches that are the best coaches that there are, then there’s some fiery guys you see year in and year out. I think it’s staying true to who you are and doing your best to get guys to respond.”
“I am who I am.”
"There are few secrets in football. So execute." ~Coach Stram
"I think it's the fans. The place is crazy. It's a good crazy, if you're Kansas City." ~Coach Schottenheimer
Parcells was a yeller too
"There are few secrets in football. So execute." ~Coach Stram
"I think it's the fans. The place is crazy. It's a good crazy, if you're Kansas City." ~Coach Schottenheimer
Sticks and stones...
I learned that when I was four years old and starting kindergarden.
See, like J-man, I have CP and when I was four I started public school. Nowadays thats not that unusual, but in 1979 in a small Mo town that was unheard of. From the first day I had to deal with taunts, teasing, name calling and other abuse. I don’t say this for sympathy or to say “I’ve had it so bad boo hoo”. In fact I cosider myself to be quite lucky. Anyway, I say this because in the end a word is just a word, yelling is just loud talking, and all the verbal abuse in the world only has what meaning you give it.
I’m pretty sure if i can figure that out at four,then these grown men should be able to handle it If they can’t then should they really be playing a game as violent as football?
There ya go!
They get their brains beat in week in and week out and we’re concerned that they’ll cave in mentally because someone yelled at them? For God’s sake! Guys like you and j-man get it, why can’t guys like Croyle and Bowe be expected to handle it? Hat’s off to you and j-man for being a tough-as-nails MEN. I sure hope the members of my favorite sports team can stand tall and be your equals!!
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
I'm used to the yelling myself
being in the military and all…if you are out of line you are WRONG!! Maybe we should have boot camp with Marine Drill Instructors. That should be entertaining.
I’m used to having to be in fight or flight myself…you dont fight you are dead…
as my senile grandfather once told me
it’s ok to argue with yourself that’s called wise decision making. It’s when you start losing the argument that you have to worry your insane :)
Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.
good article
Personally, having been in the military and having been yelled at by bosses and having yelled at subordinates and survived, I think people are too touchy these days. Strife is part of life and the sooner you get used to it the better off you’ll be.
When my boss never gives me any correction I think they either have too many other problems to deal with (I know the feeling after having managed a few things in my lifetime) or they no longer care. I’d rather be yelled at then written off.
And football is unique in the pressures of the game.
If you can’t take the heat in practice, what about your tender feeling when you near the Dog Pound in Cleveland, or the Black Hole in Chokeland.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Look at it like this....
When you was a child and you wanted to do something you wasnt supposed to…like for example, play with your mom’s antiques. Okay if you messed with them the first time and your mom says “Ok Billy, now dont mess with mommys stuff…ok thank you honey”…..guess what your little ass is gonna go mess with them again……ok different scenerio….You go mess with mommy’s antiques and she comes running in there and spanks your ass “Billy dont touch my shit!!! That is mommy’s stuff you go play with your own toys and be good or you get your ass whipped again!!!”…….ok do you go mess with the antiques after that..hell no.
Coaching is like parenting….the players will do what they can get away with…every time. Herm let them get away with losing every single week….and they did. Haley is the parent who wants to nip shit in the bud. and I love him for it……all adults respect and thank parents who were hard on them. The guys who had wimpy parents are probably sitting in jail right now.
"Hell yes I love my truck, but I want you to know, honey I love your love the most" - Eric Church
The fundemental difference I seem to have with people here...
Is that I don’t see coaching at this level as parenting, I see it as a managment job, and I’ve seen too many people like Todd Haley come and go in buisness management to count. When you have a fundemental disagreement about something like this, no amount of discussion on an internet board will change that.
Well
You cant compare Haley to a business manager either. Managing guys who work 9-5 is a whole new ballgame. My boss doesnt scream or cuss at me but I am also not making millions or if I suck its not going to cost him his job.
Todd Haley grew up around the NFL. I think he would know a thing or two about how things go. He is not just some OC from the Cardinals. He has seen more first hand then most actual coaches in the NFL right now. I think he learned a lot from Bill Parcells. I read where Bill Parcells once made Todd Haley run laps in practice for screwing up as his ast. coach….now that is hardcore. Typically if you learn your craft under a guy who is hardcore….guess what…when its your turn you will also be hardcore….especially if that way was successful.
Callmesir……you cant have your cake and eat it too…..you cant have a mild tempered coach and win every game….Herm was mild tempered and lost….why not try a new way? If you keep doing what you have been doing you will keep getting what you have been getting! Its simple. You cant change the culture of a team by keeping the same attitude as the guy before you.
"Hell yes I love my truck, but I want you to know, honey I love your love the most" - Eric Church
like I said
With a fundemental difference in beliefs nothing will be hashed out. There are different schools of though on managment an each of them CAN be effective I just don’t see his methodologies as the most effective. You can be a nice guy and win too by the way… You know who gets credit for the praise in public and discipline in private quote….??? Vince Lombardi… That guy knows a thing or two about winning football games.
Right
Coaches can win by screaming or being nice. Most nice coaches have very good players and have a system in place that excells. Todd Haley is trying to implement his style of play to a bunch of guys that make too many mistakes right now. It will take a little while and he will cool off. He wont be screaming and yelling 100% of the time…..although I think Bill Cowher did.
Just dont judge Haley by his coaching style. He is a cool dude. He knows a lot about football. He will win some games with us no doubt. Just be patient with him…he is a 1st year Head Coach and he will get better along with everyone else.
"Hell yes I love my truck, but I want you to know, honey I love your love the most" - Eric Church
When Haley was a kid he was a ball boy for the Steelers when Chuck Knoll was the head coach.
Parcells made Haley run laps as a coach?!? How humiliating! And in public, too! Why, the players might see the guy with authority over them being disciplined! Honestly, I don’t know how Haley was able to survive such an assault. That Bill Parcells is a mean, mean man.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
And to stay in coaching and strive to be a Head Coach one day...
That really taught Haley a lesson. Instead of packing up his bags like any guy with a brain would do….he took that as a wake up call and put in the hard work and effort so he wouldnt have to run laps again…..crazy dude. I hope Haley knows he is wrong for that…he should be at home crying his little eyes out making voodoo dolls of Parcells. Haley better wake up and remember that day and have a mental breakdown….or else he is not normal.
"Hell yes I love my truck, but I want you to know, honey I love your love the most" - Eric Church
You're looking at extrememe....
Todd Haley is on the far left of extreme…. because people see that I disagree with his methodologies, They assume I’m the far right antithesis of a hard nose guy. I’ve played sports at a higher level than many people here, I’ve been to war, I’m a big dude that power cleans more than 350…. I’m not some kind of scared pussy, it’s just a matter of not having to yell and scream to get across a point. I’m a man because I know I could beat the shit out of some asshole for disagreeing with me, but I don’t have to, I don’t have to yell at employees to get my point across because I know that I’ve trained them well.
Have you yourself ever been in management?
If so, are you any good at it?
I own my own business and I’ll tell you what, I have to manage each and every one of my employees in the way that gets the most out of them. I have certain employees that, quite frankly I had ten of. They’re self starters, they’re detail oriented and they bust their asses. Aside from the frequent complements I give them on their work, they fly under the radar because there is no reason to put them front and center. That’s what “the right 53” means to me. Unfortunately there just aren’t many people out there that are like this. Any argument that they’re “professionals” and they should be like this because they’re “professionals” is complete bullshit, because very few people in this world are like this.
So the bulk of my staff is full of people with incredible talent who need varying forms of motivation. Because they’re all different, they have to be dealt with in the way that nets the best results. Some I get vocal with. Others I take off of certain accounts as an object lesson and others I’ve just had to let go. But the one constant is that when they do a good job, I tell them so without hesitation. Furthermore, if I make a bad decision that affects their job, I make it clear that it’s on me and I step up to rectify it.
There has been nothing about Todd Haley that I’ve seen that leads me to believe that he’s not a good manager. Nor has he been given an appropriate amount of time to prove himself one way or the other. The focus of your criticism is extremely narrow and inflammatory. You feign self defense, but you’re going above and beyond to keep the argument going. We’re all waiting for you to substantiate your argument.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
quite frankly I had ten of
= I wish I had ten of :-\
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
I would love to be one of the ten :)
Buck
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 23, 2009 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions
ain't you though?
:)
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
yeah,
As I said earlier, I’m a former military officer, so I was directly responsible for the lives of a bunch of men, I treated them all with respect and treated them as professional soldiers, I’m currently the Mercy health networks director of satellite labs, I’m directly responsible for about 1000 employees and indirectly responsible for about about another 1000 more, yeah, I get it… I have a degree in cellular and molecular biology and an MHA. I think I know a thing or two about managment styles, and what does and doesn’t work.
So can you give us some examples as to why you think Haley's approach is so wrong?
Give us something anecdotal to substantiate your claim. I mean, sure, we’re hearing your argument, and we understand that you disagree with the approach, but why this conversation doesn’t seem to be going anywhere on so many different threads is a little baffling.
To be honest, I think there’s something to what you’re saying, but the argument hasn’t really been fleshed out. I’m sorta hoping it gets there before we run completely up against mob mentality.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
We've all had managers
That come into a new situation, that may or may not be qualified for a job, and they think they have to make a statement, and be a hardass, They think they need to micromanage and have to make examples out of people for others to respect them.
We’ve also seen those same people be the first to exit their jobs, It just isn’t an effective way to manage people.
The very first job I had in management, I was that dick. I was a lab supervisor for a blood donor center and came in and though I was there to clean the place up, I got fired because I had a hardass military point of view. We forget that all of these players have gone to college, the majority have earned degrees, and aren’t stupid, they’re able to think and speak rationally and don’t need a babysitter, a parent, or drill instructor. They need someone to give them a schematic advantage
Haley might fit yet he has managed and his approach (peter principle)
has worked so far. We will find out if he has attained too much :) Heaven knows it happens in the NFL 20 times every year!
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 23, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions
That's fine and dandy
but you know nothing about managing an NFL franchise or coaching young men ages 21-40, who many make more in a year than we will make in a lifetime. While not only managing those young men, but managing and dealing with their agents, local and national media, and a coaching staff.
none of us have any NFL coaching experience. maybe you have while fighting wars, lifting 350 lbs, getting degrees in cellular and molecular biology, saving lives, and spending a lot of time on Arrowhead Pride…if so, i apologize.
Managment principles are the same across the board
regardless of what industry you’re in. I’ve dealt with young men in that age group and people’s wiring doesn’t change simply because they are football players…
hey thanks for that second paragraph, it makes it easier for me to tell you’re juvenile jackass, that probably works at McDonalds, It’s alot easier for me to dismiss anything you have to say.
I think the mob mentality has already happened.
The problem that I have is I present things like the old saying discipline in private and praise in public and it’s immediately dismissed because this is football… Regardless of what buisness you’re in, wiring in people doesn’t change. There’s alot you can get away with if you’re making a ton of money in sales, or alot that you can get away with if you’re winning, or have proven yourself capable of winning or making money, Yet if you come in without the background and act like a hardass without results, you’ll generally fail, regardless of what industry you’re in, basic management principles apply universally.
hey, manager with all this experience
a lot…it’s two words, not alot. just something i learned working the counter at McDonalds.
I'm glad you learned something....
knowing that will certainly help when you’re making minimum wage. like I said earlier, I was a science major
we know
you have blanketed this board with all of your skills and accolades. the lifting of 350 lbs, that was the best, we needed to know that, i’m glad you “learned” us.
what else have you done? did you invent “soft rock”? what about snow tires, those are scientific, was that your idea as well? i know, what about Twilight, did you write those? because honestly, you’ve done everything. bravo.
I think maybe I needed to give a little background...
People questioned where I was coming from, they questioned my managment experience… They called me a pussy, they questioned if I had played organized sports, My giving my history was in response to direct questions I’m sorry you fail to be impressed.
well sir
In 1986 i graduated with an BS/MT from ISU. I worked for Mercy Med center in Des Moines, Iowa. I quit that job because the MANAGEMENT wouldn’t allow tests on kids w/o insurance and let them die. So….. I went to construction. I now have a 10 man crew who work high above the ground….starting at 100 ft……if you think for 1 sec I see a kid doing something stupid that would get him killed I dont yell, cuss and then scream somemore you are wrong, SIR! Then I go to curch and confess my indescretions. Hoping all the while I might have saved a life someday.
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 23, 2009 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions
come on SIR
we both know at Mercy health systems the MANAGEMENT is life or death if thay get payed..
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 23, 2009 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Is this what all of this is going to come down to?
I have no problem with people questioning my ideas about the chiefs, on a chiefs forum, but dont’ attack my value set… I will not have my service to my country, or my motives for working at my current job questioned. I was simply stating that I have managment experience.
One more thing, it's best not to talk out of your ass
The mercy system gave away more charity care than any organization not named st. judes, in the entire country last year. They gave more to local charities than any other single organization in the state of missouri, and on a local level, There is something called the kitchen clinic here in Springfield, It’s a free clininc Run by another catholic organization, that gave away 1.5 million in free testing. So don’t bash an organization that does more for a communities than you could ever fathom.
your right sir
but i worked in one of there labs for 2 years never again
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
My guess is that you work in construction...
because you either didn’t pass the ascp test, or you just couldn’t hack it… it wasn’t some idealistic reason…. and There has never been a mercy policy to disallow testing on children without insurance. Don’t smear the name of a great organization.
your guess
it takes more brains and guts to swing a 360’ beam 235’ in the air w/o anyone geting hurt . Than any papper shufeler…lol
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions
is managment w/o responsibalty really managment?
if one of my guys f!@k up thay or someone else DIES so i cuss just like my jr high coach and high school coach …..just like Hailey
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 12:33 AM CDT reply actions
He yells, just like your jr high and high school coach....
Sounds a little amteurish for the NFL… doesn’t it?
so i guess you played in the nfl also?
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 12:40 AM CDT up reply actions
I've already given my whole history....
Got offered a few baseball scholarships… Went to George Washington University instead, they only had club baseball at the time and no football, An no I didn’t play in the NFL, The whole scream at you till I feel better bit is a bit amatuerish…
BTW I made a comment or Two That was out of line… I just got extrememly pissed when you attacked my job… I promise to stay on the topic of haley and the chiefs if you do.
ok then
Im sorry also but damn at least give the new team a chance,,,,,,,,PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Man...
Like, I’ve said before… The only real argument I’ve had all along is I don’t THINK his managment style will ultimately succeed, based off of my own personal experience… I’d love to see the chiefs do well, and on these non haley related links, I’ve made actual football comments… And again, I’ll say, I feel about him the same way I feel about obama, I may not like his policies but utlimately I don’t want him to fail because his failure is a failure for all of us. I hope I’m wrong about him, I just wanted to present an opinion about not getting your hopes up too high for this guy because of a few things I percieve as negative traits in a leader.
i agree on Obama but
he is not the HC of the CHIEFS its not a pc job its freaking football like i tell my guys (8 have been with me 12 years or longer) if your scaerd get down go home dont come back
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not that I don't agree with his
Methodologies because I’m personally offended by them, I don’t really care, it’s just a matter of me thinking they won’t work in the long run. The losing culture still exists in KC and when you’re losing and you’re down and a coach is yelling in your face, anything useful he has to say will get lost in the yelling… in one ear and out the other.
so how do we change it
in your opionon?
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:06 AM CDT up reply actions
i say you get your foot in there ass
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:07 AM CDT up reply actions
If i had the answer....
I’d be the chiefs head coach. I just think it’s important to remind these grown men that it’s a buisness, and alot of money is on the line, you do your job, no need for amateur head games, What did demoting bowe to third string when everyone in the world knew he’d be a first teamer come opening day prove? You make consequenses but public beration doesn’t have to be one of them.
yes it did
im sorry you feel that way BUT have YOU ever seen bowe block like he did sunday? i watch my team closely…..thay looked better in these 2 losses than thay have any game the last 2 years IMHO
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:15 AM CDT up reply actions
This thing has also devolved into
A stupid thread dedicated to nitpicking words and small ideas and people’s refusal to look at the main theory objectively. This thing has branched off, and I’ve been made to sound like a bandwagon fan, I’ve been called a pussy because I think you can be civil, even in football, And yeah eventually I broke down and joined the masses in simple name calling and argued everything because I got pissed because I didn’t believe people understood the point, they just wanted to jump in and berate the new guy, who must know nothing because I’ve onlly been on AP a few weeks.
we understand your point
but at least I dont agree Hailey has done great things compaired to what we had give them a chance
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions
It's all good,
Some people are content with percieved improvement, I just want to see the guy win a few ball games, I’ll absouloutely admit I’ve been sour on him since the 22 guys off the street comment, and it’ll take a lot to change my mind (alot of wins), Has he really done that much? you turn over 1/3 of your roster, so you suppossedly have better talent, but he still can’t win a ballgame, I realize it’s a small sample size, but I’m not too sure it’ll get better any time in the near future. Maybe I am being impatient, but the chiefs have been bad long enough, and if you’re going to have the cojones to say you can take 22 guys off the street and win more than two games, you’d better deliver.
how do YOU know he said that? Whitlock?
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:16 AM CDT up reply actions
I think it's pretty well established he said it...
It was reported by more than one media outlet, and haley never denied it….
how do you know
as a man of science you must recongise this scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses……..not whitlock
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:51 AM CDT up reply actions
are you calling my guys amatures?
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions
we are pros at what we do
and we holler and cuss at each other how about you come ride a beam with us?
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions
oops they sorry
Len Dawson:
"Lamar Hunt had a dream and, the thing is, we had dreams, too. Just imagine the number of people that he has touched because he said, 'I'm going after this dream."'
by smokin iowa chief on Sep 24, 2009 12:35 AM CDT reply actions
environments
I think what has been missed by some people here is that the environment you coach (or manage in) has an influence on the management or coaching style. Like lots of people here I have some management experience and in several different environments from manual labor to IT and one major lesson I’ve learned is that different environments call for different styles of management. Most office workers don’t respond well to yelling, a gross generalization to be certain but generally true. Other environments and others types of workers call for different methods.
And then different groups of people in the exact same environment and type of work need different types of management. Tony Dungy was very mild mannered and won a Super Bowl so that worked for him (although personally I think having Peyton manning and Marvin harrison on the team helped more than a little too). Bill Parcells yelled a lot and it undoubtedly worked. One size does not fit all.
Will Haley’s style work? I think so but the real answer will only be determined by results and that will take time.
Not only that
We’re not seeing what isn’t caught on camera either so we don’t get the entire picture by any means.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
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