Debunking Myths and Superlatives from the Ravens Game
by stagdsp on Sep 19, 2009 2:22 PM CDT
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by Rob Carr - AP
5 days ago: Baltimore Ravens wide receiver Mark Clayton pulls down a touchdown pass under pressure from Kansas City Chiefs cornerback Brandon Carr during the fourth quarter in the NFL football game Sunday, Sept. 13, 2009 in Baltimore. (AP Photo/Rob Carr)
Ok, so I decided to watch the Chiefs Week 1 game vs Baltimore one more time.
I kept reading all of these superlatives on AP like:
"Mays was TERRIBLE in coverage, got burned all day" "Dorsey didn't do anything" "there was NO pressure from the Chiefs D" "Croyle was running for his life, had no protection" "There were NO running lanes" "Niswanger is the weakest link on the OL, he gets pushed into the QB on every play"
I watched play by play, again with the DVR so I could pause and rewind as needed to see what I could see.
Just as I expected, the AP comments are often overreactions and generalizations (with all due respect, of course).
My overall impression:
- The Chiefs were NOT outmatched vs the Ravens. They were in the game the whole time.
- 2 or 3 plays decided the game, and coaching decisions were partly to blame: both Haley and Clancy
- KC is looking at new CB because of Colclough and Leggett, but for different reasons
- the OL played OK- Goff is the weak link.
- the DL played OK- Dorsey and Jackson are going to be good players.
- The run defense was solid, only gave up so many yards because there were just that many plays run by Baltimore
- the pass rush was OK, but was blocked well by the Ravens
- Corey Mays and Niswanger are not as bad as people are saying they are after this game
Details after the jump.
On Dorsey: Generally was where he was supposed to me, got penetration on 2 or 3 plays, one QB pressure, one RB stuffed in the backfield, one tackle on Flacco when he scrambled
On Tyson Jackson: Was well blocked all day long... often double and triple teamed as was Dorsey. I think he'll be fine, was just beaten by a good OL in his first NFL game.
On Wallace Gillberry: He was flat out overmatched, and got run over.
On Ron Edwards: He was outplayed by Tank... Edwards got little push, and didn't make many plays... except for that one QB pressure where he got the sack but not the credit.
* On the Chiefs Pass Rush: there was a consistantly good push and effort being given by the front 7... but they just couldn't get off of their blocks. There were several tipped passes that nearly led to INTs... One sack by Hali, one by Edwards that he didn't get credit for.
* On the Chiefs Run Defense: Most of the time, they stopped Baltimore on less than 4yds. Baltimore is a great running team, but the run defense held up way better than the numbers suggest. I only saw 2 or 3 "big" runs of 10yds or more. Again, when an offense gets to run 85 plays in one game, even at 3-4yds per run, 200yds is a likely outcome. But, don't be surprised if this ends up being a very good run defense in 09.
On Colclough: Not good in coverage... he was burned at least 5 times that I counted.
On Leggett: Played poorly to start the game, but finished very strong. But, he's not a punt returner.
* The Chiefs are looking at CB because Colclough can't be relied upon, and Leggett needs to stay at nickel. Wade was brought in largely to return punts, because Leggett muffs too much.
Mike Brown was EVERYWHERE making tackles. His coverage was OK, not spectacular... but he's a sure tackler. I can see why Pollard was cut, Brown is a complete safety, where Pollard was a big hit guy only.
Page looked very good, making hits and deflections. Nearly had at least 2 INTs. I think the safety position is in good hands with Page and Brown. Morgan made plays on special teams, and seems to be a very vocal guy... could develop into a leader.
On Vrabel: He had several good pressures on the QB, and was involved in LOTS of tackles in the run game. He did miss 2 tackles, but overall, he had a good game.
On Hali: Great motor, was getting a good push into the backfield on EVERY play. Sometimes was well blocked, sometimes overran the play, but overall, played well.
On DJ: He was involved in a lot of tackles in the run game, and a couple of QB pressures. He was fast enough to take that INT to the house, just needed to cut back sooner or catch one more block. He also didn't seem to be running full speed. When he's playing in coverage or blitzing, the Chiefs are a better defense. NO way is he 3rd string, or in jeopardy.
On Corey Mays: He had 2 good QB pressures, 2 good RB hits. Other than that, he did miss one tackle that I saw. Everyone was ranting about how bad he was in coverage... really it was only about 2 plays to Heap... one he was out of position, but on the TD, he was right there, but Heap just made the play. Don't give up on Mays yet.
* On the Chiefs LB unit: Each guy brings something to the table. If they are in the right positions to do what they do best, they will be a good group. DJ is at his best in coverage, Mays can stop the run and hit the QB, Hali is a pure pass rusher, Vrabel is always around the ball and does a little of everything.
On Ndukwe: Most of his missed blocks were in space. Didn't do well on a screen play, whiffed on a pass block. I think he is ok, but not the true answer at RT.
On Niswanger: Yes, he missed a couple of blocks... but he certainly wasn't overwhelmed on every play, as some on AP have said. I saw him whiff a couple of times, and pushed back on passing plays sometimes... but that's pretty normal in pass blocking, you give up some ground but stay between your guy and the QB. He's not the biggest problem on this team.
On Waters: Played OK, but did miss several blocks that I saw.
On Mike Goff: He's still the weakest link on the OL, IMO. He got pushed around, and missed blocks. I really hope that the plan is to get O'Callaghan to start at RT, and push Ndukwe to RG. That would be a big upgrade for this OL.
* On the Offensive Line as a unit: Croyle DID have time to throw, contrary to popular belief. Against a fierce defense, this unit pass protected fairly well. Each guy missed a few blocks, Albert and Waters included, but they did a decent job. The running game never really got going, and there were a few times LJ/Charles got hit in the backfield... but there were also several plays where they gained decent yardage... the bottom line is that the team didn't run the ball on enough plays to really get going.
On Baltimore's OL: they held a LOT, especially on Vrabel and Hali. Other than that, they played VERY well, and did an amazing job of picking up blitzes, no matter how many Chiefs got there
* On Haley's Playcalling: I thought he was too conservative at times... called several draws and dumps to RBs in passing situations. When he opened things up and threw the ball... good things happened. I hope he mixes it up more this week.
* On LJ and the running game: I thought LJ had a couple of decent runs, and several OK ones (2-4 yds) But, 11 carries isn't enough to get him going. I think the Chiefs can and will run the ball with more success this year. Against the Ravens, they are very stout against the run, and the Chiefs were only really able to move the ball through the air.
On Sean Ryan: He still sucks in pass blocking, was mediocre in run blocking, but had a great effort on that TD. The job is still his, though, as I didn't even see Cottam on the field.
On Mark Bradley: He showed the hands and ability to get open that we want in a #2 receiver, he's in no jeopardy of being cut, IMO. On the first 3rd down he came up short... that was a bad decision to run out just short of the marker. On the 2nd 3rd down that he didn't convert... he made a good effort, but was hit by 2 guys. Yes, he should have been a little deeper on his route... but it wasn't that bad of a play.
* On the Chiefs WR corps: Bowe will be great this year, Bradley will be very good. Engram quietly contributes. Wade is brought in for punt returns, but starts to take catches away from Engram. This is a solid group of WR. If they can get Lawrence on the field and contributing, it could be fun to watch.
* On Heap's TD: Everyone is blaming Mays, but he had decent coverage... Heap just made a good play. I think the coaches are partially to blame here... DJ and Vrabel applied good pressure but didn't get to Flacco. IF it was DJ in coverage, Mays on the blitz... I think Johnson makes the play on Heap.
* On the 2nd to last Baltimore TD: This was the game sealing TD... and it was another bad call by Clancy. The Chiefs blitzed EVERYONE, leaving NO safety help for Carr. IF they had left Page deep, and blitzed one less... I think he makes that play, and forces a FG.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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great post
I 98% agree with your opinions. I do think an upgrade is needed at center though he is not our weakest link I havn’t had to watch Goff get run over for two years. Wade Smith will do.
so
i guess next week. you are going to analyse the raiders game and figure out how we could of lost…
hope so!
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Damn I love your posts stag
Either you are single or have the best lady in the world to let you spend that time looking into this for us. Either way. I thank you. I dont have a DVR. YES…stcuk in the 80’s, BUT my VCR goes slow Mo too, and I seen the same for the most part. Thank you for a great post!!
Can't wait to put my pads on a Raider, My Helmet on a Hater. I'm the Arrowhead Gladiator!!
by ArrowheadGladiator on Sep 19, 2009 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks, haha
I do have a girlfriend, but she doesn’t live with me, so I don’t have to ask for permission… and you can be assured that even if we do get married, I’ll still take some time for the Chiefs!
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Dang Bro thats quite the post..
Rec for the work you put in alone.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
One thing on Mays...
And it happened at least three times including the Heap TD. When he shows blitz and drops he overshows the blitz or does it too late and then gets caught out of position. On the Heap TD I knew it was going to be a TD the second he snapped the ball because Mays was moving toward the line and didnt have enough time to recover.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 19, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Good stuff, Stag
Rec’d to the fullest.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
Good post
but I totally disagree on Mays. I’ve watched the game twice since Sunday. FIrst time I focused on the D and the second time the offensive line.
Mays was beat a lot more than twice on pass coverage. He wasn’t just responsible for covering Heap. There were plays when he was supposed to pick up the HB coming out of the backfield and he got smoked. He also seemed to give up on plays a little earlier than I would like…this may have been because he was tired. I would say he was beat at least 6 or 7 times that I can remember. He also missed a couple tackles, one on rice that I can remember where he had him by the ankles and whiffed.
Newsinger got pushed into the backfield way too much. There is supposed to be a pocket for the QB to step into. When Rudy got pushed back this made it impossible for Croyle to escape the rush coming off the sides. Take a look at the play near the end where the ball gets batted out of Croyle’s hand before he could throw. Albert got pushed back and there was no where for Croyle to step up because Newsinger was right in front of him. There was another time I saw when Croyle completed a pass but had to step AROUND Rudy and his rusher to do it. Rudy is terrible.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
Also
on the post that Carr got beat on, the one that gave the Ravens a 7 point lead, both CB were beat. Leggett also got beat. Flacco just took the deep man. That was something else I noticed.
Very good post though! I agree about the defensive line. I think they will be ok. Great push by Tank, Hali and Dorsey got a little. I thought Jackson was pretty much stonewalled.
Also did anyone else notice that Vrabel should have gotten a sack as well? He shoved a running Flacco out of bounds before he got back to the line but they spotted it a yard forward.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Sep 19, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions
I think that was the same play I was referring to with Edwards?
the Chiefs also should have gotten 2 Safeties on that one drive.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Not talking about the massive amount of holding
Im surprised Hali or Vrabel still had jerseys on at the end of the game it seemed like every time i looked at the screen their jerseys were a foot away from thier pad and no calls. I hope Haley sent that film to the commish.
I agree about the pocket
ideally, there’s a good pocket and your QB can just hang out and pick apart a defense.
Well… this was against a defense known for applying a TON of pressure, and blitzing all the time.
You’re not going to get an ideal pocket on every play, and you’re not going to be able to sit back and pick them apart.
I’m not saying Rudy was great, he did make some mistakes… I’m just saying on the majority of snaps I watched Rudy closely… he didn’t get crushed.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Big agreement on the Clancy jailbreak blitz
I really thought we shouldve kept some safety help over the top there. Can’t stand sending 8 to blitz on a clear passing situation.
For justice we must go to Don Pioli
Yeah
but if he didn’t do it and played zone or something everyone would be bitching he didn’t pressure.
I agree though, maybe just 1 safety. Those corners were gassed.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Sep 19, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I definitely think you send a blitz in that situation
just not an 8 man blitz. Blitzing was the right idea there, you get a sack, and you knock them out of FG range. But I just felt like a six man blitz, keeping man on the outside with both safeties over the top was the best way to do it. It wouldve been enough pressure to force an early throw and limit Flacco’s reads but not so much pressure that you leave the CBs on an island and exposed.
For justice we must go to Don Pioli
Flaco threw a perfect pass on that play
I doubt keeping the safeties back would have made a difference on that particular throw. The blitz obviously didn’t work out, but I think it was the right call. Flacco was having no trouble at all moving the ball on us, and combine that with the fact that the D was exhausted, it would have probably been even worse had he completed a 10 yard pass & been allowed to eat the rest of the clock & getting a chip-in field goal attempt. At least giving up the big play allowed KC to have the ball again with 2 minutes to go…and if he misses the deep pass then they’re looking at a 45+ yard field goal attempt with a new kicker (who’d already missed in the game).
on a prior "almost TD"
Flacco threw a perfect ball, Leggett had good coverage, but it with Page back there in coverage, they got a deflection and forced a FG.
That’s the kind of play you expect, even when a good ball is thrown, when you have safety help.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
If I Recall Correctly
the blitz was not executed as well as it could have been. It appeared that every man ran right up the gut, and some right into each other, creating a wall for Flacco to throw from behind…
Put this in your pipe and smoke it:
1. Chiefs will be at least 8-8 and vie for division champs
2. DJ will break out and finally have his year
3. LJ returns to form
4. DBowe drops will reduce
by kcchiefsfan72 on Sep 19, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions
That's my take.
I’m more OK with an 8-man blitz, but it has to strike home. In preseason, against the Lambs, I think, the D-Line was successful in opening up lanes for blitzers up the middle. They didn’t get that against what looked to me like great zone blocking by the Ravens’ O-Line.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
The two LB lined up on the right were very slow off the ball too.
No way the safeties should be beating them to the line of scrimmage.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 19, 2009 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
They shouldve checked out of that play...
Baltimore lined up with a three back set. It was a moronic call.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Sep 19, 2009 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice write up
I do have some nits to pick though:
•The run defense was solid, only gave up so many yards because there were just that many plays run by Baltimore
Thats like saying JaMarcus Russell is accurate, he just doesn’t complete many passes. The reason the Ravens ran so many plays was because the defense didn’t stop them. I keep hearing people say that our defense played really well and the reason the Ravens scored so many points was because the D was tired. Well thats partially true, but if our defense really played well, they would have been able to get the Ravens off the field just like the Ravens D got our offense off the field.
There is just no way to slice it and say our defense played well. They gave up yards and scores because they played poorly. The Ravens had so many plays because the Chiefs Defense simply could not stop them the majority of the time.
* On the Chiefs Run Defense: Most of the time, they stopped Baltimore on less than 4yds. Baltimore is a great running team, but the run defense held up way better than the numbers suggest. I only saw 2 or 3 “big” runs of 10yds or more. Again, when an offense gets to run 85 plays in one game, even at 3-4yds per run, 200yds is a likely outcome. But, don’t be surprised if this ends up being a very good run defense in 09.
But they didn’t just give up 3-4 yds per run. They gave up 5/yds per rush average. The fact that there weren’t a ton of “big runs” means they were consistently giving up 4 or 5 yards a run, which is horrible in run defense.
On Niswanger: Yes, he missed a couple of blocks… but he certainly wasn’t overwhelmed on every play, as some on AP have said. I saw him whiff a couple of times, and pushed back on passing plays sometimes… but that’s pretty normal in pass blocking, you give up some ground but stay between your guy and the QB. He’s not the biggest problem on this team.
Niswangers problem is that he either gets no push in run blocking or is pushed back. This becomes a big problem with all the traps Haley likes to run because when Waters pulls, he ends up either getting tangled up in Niswanger or has to run around behind him which makes him late to the hole. This happens a lot.
* On Haley’s Playcalling: I thought he was too conservative at times… called several draws and dumps to RBs in passing situations. When he opened things up and threw the ball… good things happened. I hope he mixes it up more this week
I’m going to defend Haley on this just like I defended Herm. We have a poor team. We were playing against a MUCH better team. We showed very little ability to convert on third down and they couldn’t afford to make mistakes. They were in the game because they got lucky with the blocked punt and big INT return. If not for those two things, it would have been a blow out.
When you’re a bad team and you get a little luck that puts you in the game, you can’t beat yourself. Haley was conservative because we were in a game we honestly had no business being in and he wanted them to have every opportunity to pull it out.
http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com
by ChiefDJ on Sep 19, 2009 3:05 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree w you about Niswanger and Haleys playcalling to an extent
but I have to take issue with your characterization of our run defense. There were no big running plays in the first half and we held them to 40 yards on 11 RB carries by my count (a couple of Flacco scrambles would skew those numbers slighty, but I chose not to include those in the analysis). thats 3.63 ypc, not bad at all IMO
For justice we must go to Don Pioli
except
the worst part of the D was that it seemed like they NEVER held them on a 3rd down. I haven’t looked at the stats but it sure seemed like Bawlimore was easily able to convert 3rd downs regardless of the yards they needed.
Chiefs roll. 'nuf said.
baltimore was 10/17 on 3rd down
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Bawl'more. Been wondering what to call them.
I’d like to see a lot more contact at the line. I feel like if you’re goin’ blitz-heavy, you need to disrupt things at the line. I also feel that you don’t want to send very much 3- or 4-man rush against a mobile QB. Those agonizing scrambles, where our 3 bigs were barely missing Flacco are a credit to the big men, ironically. Another hat with some speed and quickness, and Flacco’s kaput. But Flacco has the presence of mind to KNOW he can beat 3 bigs with the help of 5 blockers and his feet, and does NOT force the ball out too quickly against 7 or 8 in coverage.
I think that you can steal a few sacks or cheap LB INTs with the 3- and 4-man rush, but you have to get some hurries, knock-downs, blocked passes and, yes, sacks, off the blitz, to get the offense off-balance and jumping at shadows.
Against the Faders, I don’t think JaMarcus has as good a pair of feet as Flacco, so the big men should have a little more success against him in space. But I still want to see a blitz-heavy scheme.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
the Run D.
Baltimore had 41 runs, for a 4.8 yard average.
Yes, that average is a little high, but if you pull out the 3 10yd runs, and the last drive for the crap TD, it’s not that bad.
Again, just my observations that, on the bulk of the plays, especially in the first half… the run defense was solid, but the Ravens converted on every passing play when it counted.
Baltimore ran 41 times, the Chiefs only had 45 offensive plays, 17 of which were runs. If the Chiefs were able to run 41 times, I would bet money that they’d have 200+ yards
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
the "long runs"
Rice had a 22yd run, McGahee had a 16yd run
Just taking out those 2 runs drops the average to 4yds/run.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
My point is that none of those runs even came in the first half.
the first half we didnt allow a single double digit run. Granted, there were only 11 RB carries by the Baltimorons in the first half, a testament to our vulnerable secondary, but the runs they did have weren’t big and weren’t dominating. First half YPC was only 3.63…. not bad.
For justice we must go to Don Pioli
Chiefs were playing stout, and even getting some TFL off LB penetration.
To the ‘morons’ credit, they were willing and able to convert with the pass. This was exactly what I was afraid would happen to a D that was DAMNED if they were gonna be beaten on the ground, early. This is still mostly a cover-2 secondary that prob’ly needs a little more Donald Washington, before that jailhouse stuff, especially, is going to be a world-beater.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Bottom line
Leggett is a nickel and colclough is not that good. We missed Flowers dearly in game one lets hope he is healthy. Baltimore took advantage of the only thing they could no flowers. With Flowers healthy are D has NO holes and enough depth to win games if we can just eat clock on O.
I hope that is realistic and will solve a lot of problems :)
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 19, 2009 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly...
Flowers could make all the difference in the world.
I’m still hoping Colclough gets cut for Justin Miller… not that he’ll help in the secondary, but at least he brings a dynamic return game
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
I've got to
disagree with you partially here..
“There is just no way to slice it and say our defense played well. They gave up yards and scores because they played poorly. The Ravens had so many plays because the Chiefs Defense simply could not stop them the majority of the time.”
Before the 4th quarter, our D had held them to 17 points. Our D was also solely responsible for 1 TD, and mostly responsible for another TD. Meanwhile, our offense was responsible for NOTHING. Again this is prior to the 4th quarter.
Our offense had 6 3 and outs. 1 of those were in the 4th quarter. We didnt get a first down until 2 and a half minutes before halftime. We had 11 total. Thats 10 first downs coming in the 2nd half. So, not only did the offense play poor and put the D back on the field consistantly, but when the D made a good play, (punt block, 70 yard INT), they actually hurt themselves because they still had no time to rest. It was a losing situation. The offense couldnt keep the D off the field, and when the D made a good play, they had to go right back out on the field.
We allowed 0 points in the 2nd quarter. Our D gave up 10 points in the first, bounced back and played well. Our D got us back in the game. It wasnt pretty, and alot of mistakes were made, but things happen and because of that, we were in the game. BUT, what killed us, was our defense was on the field for 40 minutes.
Going back to my post 4th quarter remarks, the 4th quarter is where we started to show fatigue. The offense actually got a few first downs in the 4th, but it was too late. The D was gassed and gave up 21 points. 17 points in 3 quarters of football, 21 in the fourth.
IMO, I believe that had Brodie been able to move the ball more (not blaming him completely, there were some line issues and Bradley had 2 catches that should have been first downs), our defense would have been better rested. In that scenario, I dont think we give up 21 4th quarter points and maybe even get a score. I strongly believe we could have won this game that you say “we had no business being in”. I think this game was lost more so by the offense than the defense. Defense doesnt affect the Offense as much as the Offense affects the Defense. Sure, the Defense is trying to stop the other team early and get good field position for the offense, but if the offense chokes, the defense will fatigue and make mistakes and that is what happened last week.
Our 3rd down conversions – 2/11. Balt’s 3rd down conversions – 10/17. Our D did a good job of forcing Baltimore into 3rd down situations. But they cant hold anybody on 3rd down. This has been a problem for the last 2 seasons and needs to be corrected badly. The inability to convert 3rd downs on offense and stop 3rd downs on defense only contributes to the fatigue of our defense.
Baltimore is better than us in nearly every positional category except WR, IMO. Yet we found ourselves in the game. We werent outmatched, we were simply outplayed. In spite of the issues we saw in the game (and some that are recurring from the last 2 seasons), I’m pretty optimistic that we’ll win atleast 6 games. Week 1, new HC, a backup QB, a patchwork OL, possibly the youngest starting DL in the league, a whole new scheme on both sides of the ball, and what experts say is a “lack of talent” (which I disagree with), we played hard, we never gave up, and we had an opportunity to win. Thats what I like to see. Last year and the season before, we got pushed around too easy, we gave up too quickly, and with the exception of last year, didnt have a chance to win many games. Last season we lost 7 by 7 or less so I cant say we didnt have chances to win last season.
I too defend Herm in certain situations. But playing conservative allows the defense to play aggressive and apparently some people dont understand that. You’ve got to take shots downfield. I dont think we took enough shots. Bradley had a nice 50 yarder, but if we could have had a few 20+ yard plays, maybe the Safeties backup, the LB’s dont blitz as much, and we can run the ball. Once you get the running game going, that opens the door for playaction which opens up the downfield game even more. I’m a firm believer in “taking shots to keep them honest” because it opens the door for so many different possibilities
by Petey14 on Sep 19, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
We're talking about the Defense, not the offense
You seem to want to blame it all on the offense. Yes, they hurt the defense by not being able to stay on the field and give the D rest.
But guess what? If our defense was half as good as people want to give them credit for in that game, they would have kept the Ravens offense off the field too. But that didn’t happen. The Ravens had 32 First Downs.
That is ludicrous. That tells us the Ravens walked up and down the Chiefs defense and had their way with it.
By way of comparison, the New Orleans Saints, who walked all up and down the Detroit Lions and scored 6 TDs only had 28 First Downs.
In fact, the only time the Chiefs defense really had any success in stopping the Ravens offense was when our PUNTER pinned them within the 10 yard line.
How about # of plays per drive for Baltimore in the 1st half?
1st drive – 9 plays
2nd drive – 13 plays
3rd drive – 3 plays (Ravens started at the 8 yd line)
4th drive – 3 plays (Ravens started at the 9 yd line)
5th drive – 13 plays
Thats in the 1st half. 43 plays for the Ravens. That pretty much blows the whole “the defense played bad because they were tired” theory.
Its going to be a growing process for this team. Its a new defensive scheme and we have a lot of players that don’t really fit it.
I’m just saying that you cannot sit there and tell me to my face that a defense that gave up 200 yds rushing, 300 yds passing, only had 1 sack and ZERO QB Hurries did a good job. You’re kidding yourself.
Like Parcells said, you are what your record says you are. In this case, you are what your stats say you are. A bad defense.
http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com
Mostly agree. Same as last year, it's like the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing, at times.
As I feared, coming into this season, the secondary isn’t shutdown-caliber. Worse than I expected, the front 7 isn’t striking home with the blitz. I expected to see the big men playing in such a way as to open lanes for the LBs and DBs to come free, and instead, what I seemed to see was the same old big men falling down trying to finish the sack in space against a quicker-footed QB.
I’m OK with the big men gettin’ tied up, as long as it takes two or more blockers per d-lineman to achieve that tying-up. That gives the other 8 guys a numerical advantage against the rest of the offense. But one or more of those other 8 guys (and I really should count Hali as one of the front 4, frankly, so let’s call it the “other 7 guys”) oughta be able to anticipate where the seams are going to be and attack those seams. The front 3 should just get up the field, make it fairly tough for the QB to get outside of ‘em, but above all, don’t let him step up. Simple, powerful, and disciplined – gives the other 8 guys something predictable to feed off of and something predictable (in a BAD way) for the offense.
It’s OK if Hali tries to finish off with the sack. He has the speed to finish against a QB in space. But there oughta be another hat coming free, especially when you send 6 or more, and it looked to me like the D-Line was trying (and ineffectively) to make the sack on their own, and not playing as much to facilitate their teammates as I had hoped.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
that def does not blow it.
They amount of time we had to catch are breath after the 9 play drive matters and then the 13 matters see the pic. If Philly played like we did on Offense they would have the same result a tired D getting run over. I think are defence played very good.
Also
Are first real game in 3/4 front and I was very impressed I still say KC figures out how to move the ball on O through faith in HALEY and the rest of are staff,although I do put the blame on them for week 1 loss. Play Baltimore again with Flowers healthy we win after what I saw.
Except
that as previously noted, if the defense did their job, they get a three-and-out and get to rest. Giving up long drives early in the game has everything to do with D and nothing to do with the Offense.
The Kansas City Chief's 2009 record will be 5-11.
true
but, there were a few good stops by the defense, notably the very first scoring drive for Baltimore. They weren’t able to run much at all, but completed a few passes and got into the redzone… then the pressure came and the coverage was there… and they held the Ravens to a FG.
But, yeah, you can’t “edit” a football game, keeping only the parts you want… the team has to execute on all three phases, and for the whole time. I think the first game of the year shows that the Chiefs can be competitive even when things aren’t going their way.
I can’t wait to see what they are able to do when things DO go their way!
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Disagree
on the luck aspect of your statement. Okay, may be a little bit of luck because it doesn’t happen every time, but it takes skill and talent to be able to block a punt. The INT by DJ was being in the right place by reading the QB’s eyes. I’ll give you a bit of luck on ST, but not DJ’s pick. We’ll have a lot more picks this year than we will blocked punts. In either case, I can say with confidence that the more the defense playes together, the more turnovers we will force…
Put this in your pipe and smoke it:
1. Chiefs will be at least 8-8 and vie for division champs
2. DJ will break out and finally have his year
3. LJ returns to form
4. DBowe drops will reduce
by kcchiefsfan72 on Sep 19, 2009 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions
DJ had 4 picks in 4 seasons + 1 game this season
That tells me you can’t count on that every game.
http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com
Or it may mean that DJ may be coming into his own.
1 INT, 1 game. If you want to play a numbers game, he’s on pace for 16 in a season.
I’m not saying that’s where this is going, but for similar reasons, I don’t think 4 picks in 4 seasons is predictive of this season, either.
DJ looked like the real deal to me, Sunday.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
We've been waiting for DJ to "come into his own" for four seasons already
I think what we’ve seen from him is all we can expect.
He was in the right place at the right time for the INT and thats good. But there needs to be a trend of that type of thing happening before I put much faith in him.
Unlike the Bowe situation, I completely agree with benching DJ. He has been hand fed every opportunity since he was drafted to live up to his potential and its never happened.
He’s the perennial underachiever and for the first time in his career, he needs to EARN his spot on the field.
http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com
Agree to an Extent...
but I was not merely focusing on DJ. My whole argument was that we will get more picks as the defense plays together longer. I wasn’t honing in on DJ alone as my reference was in regard to the entire defense. DJ will have his best year though, and not because of the defense suiting him. He will have a better year from the knowledge he has gained and continues to gain from ZT (no longer), Vrabel, and Mike Brown…
Put this in your pipe and smoke it:
1. Chiefs will be at least 8-8 and vie for division champs
2. DJ will break out and finally have his year
3. LJ returns to form
4. DBowe drops will reduce
by kcchiefsfan72 on Sep 19, 2009 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope you're right
But we’ve said the same thing about DJ for 3 years now. “This is the year he finally puts it all together”.
At some point you just have to realize that horse isn’t coming home.
http://ajax-dj.mybrute.com
Hear Ya Chief
but as long as the man is in a Chiefs uniform, I’ll ride that horse until it keels over and dies or we have to put it out of its misery. Here’s to hoping this horse gets a little giddy-up in its getalong…
Put this in your pipe and smoke it:
1. Chiefs will be at least 8-8 and vie for division champs
2. DJ will break out and finally have his year
3. LJ returns to form
4. DBowe drops will reduce
by kcchiefsfan72 on Sep 20, 2009 4:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Good post, liked it a lot.
I only have one issue.
the pass rush was OK, but was blocked well by the Ravens
The pass rush was decent but our blitz was not working. Most of the extra rushers on the blitz were picked up seemingly effortlessly by the Ravens Oline. We have GOT to get to the QB when we blitz or we will get burned down the field for more than just 1 td.
I don’t know if there are different types of blitzes that would be more effective?
I just know we must get to the QB when we are risking coverage like that and last game that wasn’t happening.
There RB's
were above average on picking us up when we blitzed imo.
The difference between a good and bad day, isn't what changes in your day...It's what changes in you.
Home Cooked
We should of had atleast five sacks or multiple holding calls Vrabel and Hali were consistantly beating thier man only to get grabbed from the side or even a couple times in the back and no Yellow flags it was really disgusting. I wonder how much money was up for grabs on the tables!!!!!!!
When it comes to our pass rush alot of people are quick to say it wasnt good enough...
And not enough credit is being given to how good that oline in Baltimore is and how well their RBs pick up blitzers. I think the same effort against most other teams and you would get different results.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
"Croyle DID have time to throw, contrary to popular belief."
I’ve watched the game again, too. Recommend doing that before commenting too extensively. There’s so much to pick up the second time. Good job.
But, Croyle was throwing off his back foot and getting whacked just as he was releasing the ball. He was under HEAVY pressure and there’s no way to deny that.
The play-calling was fine and will only get better. Look for three step drops. The OL can’t make a pocket.
Mays had big troubles. I would not be surprised to see DJ replace him instead of Williams.
Kevin Harlan said the Chiefs would be “tweaking personnel” this week (he had his meetings with Haley/Pioli which are off the record to help him prepare). That will be interesting. I would not be surprised to see DJ and O’Callahagn starting. Maybe Goff is replaced? We’ll see.
I’d like to see Savage replace either LJ or J. Charles. Neither one is an instinctive runner. They can’t make people miss and the Chiefs line isn’t opening holes on a regular basis. I don’t expect that ,but we need a guy back there who can make people miss and is a better pass blocker. Savage is a better pass blocker than LJ or Charles.
The Chiefs played much better than what most people are saying and watching the game two or three times really helps. Trent Green did that this week and commented the Chiefs looked pretty good.
gotta disagree
Croyle was able to get rid of the ball cleanly on most plays. That’s the best you can hope for vs Baltimore. I watched the game at least twice, and closely, rewinding most every play.
DJ is NOT replacing Mays, it’s a different position. DJ and Williams are the WILL LB, Mays and Belcher are the Mike LB…Mays won’t get replaced until the Chiefs sign/draft a new LB… he just needs to stay in the box more. The Safeties have to come up and cover the TE more, and DJ should be dropped into coverage more.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
DJ needs to play more...
Don’t have a lot of insight into whats behind the scenes but the Chiefs D needs DJ on the field.
I think Mays oughta deliver a serious blow to the TE, shake him off his route, and then let somebody else cover the TE
But on the TD reception, Heap was actually lined up on the left side, and I THINK he got a free release from DJ, and Mays had middle-of-the-field responsibility, but just couldn’t wrench the ball outta heaps two hands with his one hand.
As to your remark about Croyle, I think it was two games in one, with absolutely NO time in the first half. And that 50-yarder to Bradley was delivered off-balance as he was being hit. Says a lot about Croyle’s arm strength that he managed to only slightly underthrow that pass, but he DID get the ball PAST the defender. But, yes, the protections really solidified in the 2nd half.
I thought Croyle looked like the real deal in terms of footwork and natural throwing ability. He still needs a little more development in the mental aspect, to get the most out of his very very good mechanics.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
You say back foot and then Very Very good mechanics?
I say 2nd string while we work out the Sybil thing :)
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 19, 2009 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm still waiting for LJ to do something...
They won’t replace him but we all know he doesn’t play every down because he won’t block.
I think Charles has a lot of potential but he hasn’t shown me much at all. He is really holding off Savage off with pure talent, not effort. That being said, realistically speaking, I doubt he gets replaced unless Charles goes on another fumble spree.
Its a shame though I like Savage a lot. I guess we should be happy he is on the team.
I think, especially against the Ravens, Haley was a bit concerned about turnovers.
I do expect to see Savage get more and more touches as the season wears on, at the expense of LJ and Charles. Right now, he looks like a double-edged sword, who might give something great to the defense trying to do something great on his own. But he’s the ONE guy who looks like an all-around HB, like Edgerrin James or LaDanian Tomlinson. Very quick outta the blocks, good balance and strength on a low center of gravity. If he can jack up a LB in protections and protect the ball consistently, I think he’s likely the best all-around RB talent currently on the squad.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I dont think
Savage is the answer. Yes, he’s a decent back but LJ/Charles give us the best chance to win. Savage is much like LJ in a sense that if he gets hit in the backfield, hes probably going down. I know he had that nice run in preseason but I dont think that makes him the answer. Savage doesnt go from trying to make the team permenently for what..2 or 3 years now? You don’t go from trying to stay on the team to being a starter just like that. And Charles is the best blocking RB we have. And he’s pretty good blocker. LJ’s power (and speed in the open field) mixed with Charles agility, speed and acceleration is a deadly combo. We just need to open some running lanes for them.
I dont like all this LJ talk. LJ cant do much if he’s getting hit in the backfield or at the LOS on almost every play.
It's not fair to diss the RB when that's happening.
OTOH, when that’s happening, LJ mightn’t be the best back for the situation.
But don’t let general observations mislead you on specifics. I don’t think there’s a blind faith in LJ. He’s good, but if Savage has a big game or two, he’ll get more minutes.
But EVERYthing we’re saying about these backs is against an o-line-in-flux backdrop. At the very least, even if we see the O’Callaghan-Ndukwe takeover on the right side and it IS an upgrade, there are likely to be some rough spots, especially in the 1st half of tomorrow’s game.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I love Savage as a Chief
would love to see Savage start he has vision, heart, strength, blocking ability and he came from the same school as Barry. Got to love it.
I agree
with most everything that you said. Great post. And Im so glad someone brought up Goff. He is by FAR the weakest link on the line. 99% of the time if there is strong pressure in the qb’s face, he ran by Goff. And why is a blocked punt, or an interception called luck? When the Ravens do it, it’s great D. A muffed snap is luck. A blocked punt is earned.
This is the best game breakdown I have EVER seen
I signed up for an account on this site just to make this post! Really, it was that good. Very good analysis and I almost absolutely agree – Really objective, Why can’t I see more of this!!!!
thanks for the compliment!
There’s lots of good posts on AP… and you won’t find it on any other Chiefs site
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
AP
Yeah, I’ve come to this site daily for almost 5 months, just never felt a need to sign up. Enjoying this community a lot!
by Skanky Yankee on Sep 19, 2009 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions
i agree
that we were in the game
I agree that it was a few plays, mostly 3rd down plays.
But, I will say those plays early on that killed KC, were coverage issues with mays
I dont think saying mays had a bad game is an overreaction…
I watched it and we looked good on pass rush and other aspects, but Mays flat out got beat by Heap on 3 key plays in 1 on 1 coverage.
Help me out
I always hear how the D was tired from being on the field so long…How come the O doesn’t get tired as well?
by idahochieffan on Sep 19, 2009 3:55 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Couple of reasons
and someone correct me if I am wrong.
OLine – When blocking, you are pretty much standing your ground and trying to move your guy around to either form a pocket or create a hole
DLine – On most every play you have to try and get around or through your blocker and try to chase whoever has the ball.
LBs – pretty self explanatory. These guys run all over the field on most every play.
CBs – Have to react to whatever the receiver does. WRs know where they are going and DBs usually have to play catchup.
Go outside with a friend and spend a half hour a day playing each position on offense and defense and you will understand why defenses get tired quicker than offenses.
For us we were not on the field
As far as Balt they use THREE running backs in the Second half thier O-Line was wearing down notice that with multiple uncalled holdings, plus RBs were fresh and NO ONE on D was if you watch you can see players are in position even on thier big plays fresh legs were just moving faster with more leverage so it goes both ways but advantage Offense.
nice post bro +1 and rec
I have a question though, How many times did you see our D-Line put there hands up when Joe was throwing? I felt in the game they didn’t have there hands up nearly enough.
The difference between a good and bad day, isn't what changes in your day...It's what changes in you.
Great analysis and post
I appreciate you taking the time to fill us in with the details. I didn’t see any of the game, so this is almost like watching it. Also, after reading so much about who doesn’t do their job and who sucks, it is very refreshing to read some of the positives.
I have great hope for the Chiefs this year, even though we are playing against many of the most solid teams. Keep up the good work.
I noticed how quick Hali got to the Blockers on his rushes but then, (like Jared Allen),
he did not seem to have that special move to get around, under or just by the blocker. I agree that he and Vrabel were being held on almost every play.
You took the words right out of my mouth...
…must have been while you were kissin’ me.
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
Thanks
Stags, for your time and input. Wrecked…
Put this in your pipe and smoke it:
1. Chiefs will be at least 8-8 and vie for division champs
2. DJ will break out and finally have his year
3. LJ returns to form
4. DBowe drops will reduce
Very good post
Unless someone else can come up with a better idea, or someone is willing to do a different view of a post like this I personally would love to see you break down every Chiefs game like this. I know it took an Ass load of work and I thank you, but this is exactly what I think we are looking for here at AP. I love the fact that so many voiced their thought’s and opinions and were answered and No one got ugly about it. This is the AP I signed up for. again Thank you for all the hard work. Yes Rec’ed yet again
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!
thanks
I’ll do my best to do this for as many games as I can…
I agree that there’s been some great discussion on here, which make it worth putting together a FanPost!
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
On Waters: Played OK, but did miss several blocks that I saw.
Waters missed big time on the Thigpen run. Would have went for 15-20 yards and the first first down of the game
Predictions for 2009:
LJ runs for 1800 yards
Bowe in the pro bowl
Chiefs D finishes in the top 10 in points allowed
Chiefs 10-6
yeah...
I was surprised to see him whiff on that run and on at least two of the plays where the Ravens got to Croyle.
Overall, though… he’s probably still the best OL on the team, but I’m hoping this shows that each guy on the line can elevate his play.
I think they’ll handle the Raiders a little better… but the Chiefs play against good defensive fronts most of the year, so it’ll be interesting to see if the OL can step up to keep this team competitive
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
very very goodpost
People exaggerate, and the score doesnt say anything. If we had forced them to kick a FG on that last passing TD, We would have had a good opportunity to kick with Succop. But I thought you broke the game down well.
Excellent post
And thank you for the fine work in putting this together.
Bottom line for me is it was ugly. It was planned to be ugly and we can expect a lot of ugly this year. If we can hang with a team until two minutes left that was in the AFC championship game and got better, we are going to put up some ugly wins before it’s all over with. We have to play error free, turnover free and execute the game plan. We don’t have much margin for error so when a couple of guys miss acouple of plays it really hurts. I think we are going to be a better team this week , and hope we just continue to be a little better every week. Not every team on the schedule will be the caliber of the Ravens.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
That is the Haley Process :)
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 19, 2009 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions
It was UGLY and also NOT a blowout
So it is what we are and we will build week to week on the Baltimore game.
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Sep 19, 2009 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Gilberry.
Didn’t expect to see him on the field as much as I did. I think he played more than Jackson.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Coaching and the apparent blown coverage by Mays.
Is it me, or was that only a 3-man pass rush in the red zone? I thought this D would be able to play big in the red zone, bring the blitz, and get guys like Washington and Leggett denying the pass on the short field…
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Wow,
Great post. I am pretty impressed. I think i overreacted on some occasions when Mays missed 2 big plays and same with the DL. But if i were to look back im pretty sure that they had a good game. I think the Raider game will be a good one. Just some less conservative play calling. Can’t wait till tomorrow!
Very good post
I agree with all points of your post and will you plese do this for every game this year. You clearly understand the game and your points are accurate. Thank you and keep it comming I will try to give my share.
Great Post
Thanks for taking the time and effort to review the game and write up your observations.
Personally I think the team as a whole is on the right track and will soon (within a couple years) be a great team again.
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