So its near 5am

by Petey14 on Aug 16, 2009 5:08 AM CDT

I haven't gone to sleep yet, I'm tired, and ready to actually get some sleep. And no, unfortunately, I was not out partying all night :-P I just got back from out of town and I had a very interesting arguement about Todd Haley and I wanna see what most people think about the subject.

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE what Todd Haley has brought to the table in KC. I like how he whipped everyone into shape and hes a no nonsense coach. But when he first came to KC...I hated him. I didnt even know him really. I knew about his previous run-in's with players but thats not what had me so pissed off about him.

I was furious when I read what he said to Brian Waters. The whole 22 guys off the street coulda won more than 2 games comment. Now, some people say it needed to be done and look at the results. Waters is doing well and this and that. But does he really wanna be here? Last I knew, he didnt, but even if he came out and said he was happy here, him being a person of character, I would take that with a grain of salt. He's outspoken, but not enough to be a distraction.

Now heres why it pissed me off. Football is a very emotional game. Most players are very passionate about what they do. Brian Waters is a very emotional, passionate player. He not only suffered through the season, but played his ass off and got back into the pro bowl. He was the BEST linemen we had last season, on a shitty OL. When a new head coach comes in and says something like that, its not only disrespectful to Waters, but its disrespectful to his teammates that he suffered with through the season. If I were working at my job, doing better than anyone else on my position, and someone came and told me someone off the street could do my job better, id probably beat his ass. If Brian Waters would have went to jail for assulting Todd Haley, I would not only take Waters side, but I would commend him for sticking up for himself and his team. Sure, maybe the team wasnt that good, but all Haley had to do was say HEY. This is how it is, thats how its going to be, and if you dont like it, dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. He didnt have to insult the guy.

The biggest thing, going back to the best linemen thing, what would be have done if we woulda lost Waters? We'd be in a world of hurt. After todays game, I'm not real excited about the improvement of our OL because it doenst seem too much better. It IS better, but not by much. McIntosh has been "improving" since week 7 of last season, yet hes still getting beat around the edge consistantly. Without Waters, our OL would be in shambles.

We lost Shields, Roaf, Weigman, and Richardson, with NOONE to replace them. We cant afford to lose Waters.

But, theres my arguement. So heres the question. Was Todd Haley crossing the line by saying what he said to Waters?

Poll

Did Todd Haley cross the line?

Yes.

7 votes

No.

27 votes

34 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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Oh

And I realize Richardson was a FB not an OL. But he was a dominant blocker and helped contribute to the OL and offensive success.

by Petey14 on Aug 16, 2009 5:11 AM CDT reply actions

i voted yes

but wanted to vote no,,, on one side I can understand how Waters could feel insulted after busting his ass to make the pro bowl but i also understand haley pointing out how bad this team was and if you are so big on team you have to detach your own ego from haleys comment and realize that hes not dissing you personally

by dgoddard on Aug 16, 2009 5:40 AM CDT reply actions

I'm sure Waters had a chip on his shoulder goin' into his 1st meeting with Haley.

Waters had no intention of going to OTAs. Haley really wanted everybody to be there. Obvious conflict, right there. Haley has no authority to force Waters to attend OTAs. Waters didn’t. Waters will make the team. Both men appear to have handled the whole thing like men.

It’s no surprise that you should write a 5 a.m. Post like this, goddard, coming off the loss in Haley’s debut. Haley hasn’t proved ANYthing in the NFL as a HC, yet, other than that he can organize a practice, and, apparently, get D-Bowe to make the most of every opportunity (even though he tried to bury this fact in the brouhaha about depth chart). Until he gets 3 wins, and depending on how long THAT takes, his way of doing things is in question.

If Haley’s way gets results, we’ll be liking him plenty, and his little tiff with Waters will be seen as the tempest in a teapot it probably is in reality. Reporting on that whole thing was pretty sketch, as I recall, and NEITHER Waters NOR Haley showed any inclination to air what went on between them in public.

But whether or not these little things are actually signs of a larger problem, we’ll never know. We’ll know that it’s all bullshit if Haley’s guys win for him. If they just never DO win for him, we won’t really be sure if things like this are why, or if the players just aren’t very good. But if they don’t do significantly better this year, Haley will be put on a very short leash.

It certainly isn’t all about being tough, well-conditioned and well-coached, if the players don’t respond to your methods and win games. If what haley’s doing is outta line, the team won’t win, and the “media blackout” won’t mean a thing. The papers and websites would be filled with anonymous player sources whispering about how nobody on the team wants to play for Haley.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Aug 16, 2009 6:48 AM CDT reply actions

i didnt write the post just commented an

abbreviated oppionion

by dgoddard on Aug 16, 2009 6:54 AM CDT up reply actions

I saw your other Post in the "Recently Posted" window.

I just realized my mistake, when I noticed (just this second) Petey’s name on the FanPost and remembered calling you by name in my mesg. Time to go do some more math class preps.

Sorry, dgoddard.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Aug 16, 2009 7:09 AM CDT up reply actions

First of all

What “chip on his shoulder” did Brian Waters have before he even met Haley? Brian Waters hadn’t even talked to Haley yet. He just wanted to talk to his coach and find the direction of the team. Waters hadnt said he wouldnt be attending OTA’s yet, he didnt say he wanted to be traded yet. None of that happened until AFTER his meeting with Haley. Is there a single NFL team that ever has ALL of its players at OTA’s? If so, its not very often. If you read what I said, I back Haley 100% and like what hes done, but his handling of Waters was unacceptable, disrespectful, and outright insulting.

As for your comment that is no surprise I wrote that at 5am after we lost, I think youre reading into this way too much. This has nothing to do with Haleys first loss in a preseason game. I could care less about that. I’ve watched us lose all but 6 regular season games in 2 years. 1 preseason loss doesnt bother me. Again, if you read what I said, " I had a very interesting arguement about Todd Haley and I wanna see what most people think about the subject."

The more I read your post, the more I realize you are doing nothing but talking about Haleys coaching. You failed to even answer my question.

Bottom line: Haley treated Brian Waters like garbage the 1st time they met. I know Haley wanted to instill the whole “nobody is above the team” attitude, but he could have done that in other ways than what he did. I like Haley. But that was not a good start to turning around a 6-26 team. If Brian Waters would have left over it, people would have been extremely upset. We have nobody to replace Waters (except MAYBE Herb Taylor) and that would have been ANOTHER hole in our already swiss cheese OL.

by Petey14 on Aug 16, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions

That's fine.

I still think Waters had a chip on his shoulder. The year before, he attended OTAs for the first time in many years, to help Albert develop and to help the team. The result was 2-14, and a lot of offseason work Waters didn’t typically do. So yeah, I think he had jaundiced views on OTAs before ever seeing Haley. Not aimed at Haley, per se, but at the Chiefs and the NFL.

Waters is KC’s player rep to the NFLPA, and feels strongly about voluntary OTAs being VOLUNTARY. He’s probably tired of losing. So, yeah, I bet he had a chip on his shoulder.

The facts on what was said EXACTLY between Haley and Waters are actually quite thin, and come mostly from Jason Shitlock’s column. When asked about Shitlock’s column, Waters denied remarks Shitlock attributed to Waters. So, NEITHER you nor I have many facts about the specific incident, and to say more about it is to give credence to an unconfirmed, pot-stirring diatribe by Shitlock. I based what I said on observable, confirmable fact, rather than speculation.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Aug 16, 2009 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions

its fine im not mad

just didnt wanna steal petey’s thunder

by dgoddard on Aug 16, 2009 7:11 AM CDT reply actions

Haley vs Waters

!st of all Haley has never been a head coach at any level,except for maybe a tennis team.What could possibly give him the right to talk to a pro bowl player that way.In any business you never try to alienate your best people,especially when they have a great folowing.This is a fan based business & the fans love B.W.Waters was showed a mountain of disrespect by Pioli & Haley.With 2 new guys like that taking over an organization you would think that the common sense thing to do is make him your biggest supporter.I am still not sure that either 1 can do what’s needed.If you want to bring the chiefs back,stop making us the patriots.

John Soellner

by chiefs63 on Aug 16, 2009 8:12 AM CDT reply actions

To an extent..

I agree. I understand Pioli. I get that. Pioli is the GM who had bigger things to worry about and Brian Waters expected to walk in unannounced and meet Pioli after he talked to Haley.

As a Coach, when your probowl OL wants to meet with you about the team, then you meet with him, you tell him how it is, and if he doesnt like it, well..thats his problem. He can leave. But to completely disrespect the guy was uncalled for. I think that Haley could have made the same message with different words AND had Waters backing him. If Waters backs him, more people will follow because Waters is a team leader. Now, I think players are buying into Haley anyway, but it was a rough start.

The main thing I disagree with is “bring the chiefs back, stop making us the patriots”. What exactly is Patriot-like? If we win 3 superbowls in the next 5 years, I’m sure you wont be saying that. The Patriots did exactly what you are supposed to do. You build our DL and OL and the rest will fall into place. Who knew that Trent Green, Priest Holmes, Johnnie Morton, Eddie Kennison and Dante Hall would formulate the best offense in the league for like 3 years? Nobody. But our OL is amazing and because of that, our offense BEASTED. Put Tom Brady behind our OL and I bet he doesnt make the pro bowl. Okay, maybe thats not true, he MIGHT make it, but he might get killed while trying.

by Petey14 on Aug 16, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions

A reminder

Waters showed up out of the blue demanding to talk with the HC and GM, Just as they were trying to figure out what they had to work with. Not just players but staff as well. I know I don’t go into work making demands of my bosses and expect them to make nice to me, why should he have expected otherwise? I agree that both sides handled this both good and bad, the off hand comment did not help but the not taking it to the press was good. Overall I see this a soon to be non-issue, I think both sides have talked and have come to see each others position and that both want the somethings. Personally I think a few things went wrong on the O line last night and not because someone didn’t want to be there. I saw a new unit trying to learn how to work together with limited talent, the longer they play together the better they will get.

This morning I got up for no other reason than to read AP and see what real Chiefs fans thought about the game, and here I find Haley bashing and the Thigpen cheer leaders. Not really what I was hoping to find, I guess I was looking for bright spots from a dark night. I saw lots of things that I consider as growth, when you look at the team as a whole. Basically a new team from top to bottom all trying to learn how each other wants to play the game, was it prefect… Oh hell no, it wasn’t pretty either but it was a start, a place to look at in real game time against a team that’s not just us on the other side. I guess all I’m saying is let’s give the people that are getting paid to put together this team a chance to look at things from whatever angle they need to and make the Chiefs better than they were. Yes I wanted a win bad last night, but it’s pre-season with a brand new team let’s not go off the deep end over it.

is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?

I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!

by KC Fanatic on Aug 16, 2009 10:58 AM CDT reply actions

Like I said in a comment up above

This has NOTHING to do with our Loss last night. What part of " I had a very interesting arguement about Todd Haley and I wanna see what most people think about the subject." do you all not understand?

Yes, it was good that it was mostly kept from the media. But Waters showing up to meet with the HC for 20-30 mins is not something worth the “22 guys off the street” comment. If a new Owner and Manager took over at my job, I would go to their office and ask about alot of things too. I wouldnt expect a ton of answers, but I wouldnt expect to be disrespected like that.

Again, this has NOTHING to do with last nights game!! Our OL looked terrible, yes, but most of the pressure came from the right side of the line. Albert and Waters looked fairly well. Goff on the other hand, didnt look so swell and D-Mac looked like the same old D-mac.

SERIOUSLY this is starting to piss me off. All you guys had to do was read the post and answer the question. Instead, you all want to over analyze it, and tell ME that I’m pissed off because we lost last night. NO..IM NOT! Its a fucking preseason game. I’m not bashing Haley. I said IN THE ORIGINAL POST that I LIKE Haley. My god.

by Petey14 on Aug 16, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions

Was Todd Haley crossing the line by saying what he said to Waters?

I was trying to say I think that the line was more of a misunderstanding and bad timing rather than some crossing the line type thing. However due to the anger in your replies I’ll just leave it as a Dead Horse issue. there doesn’t seem to be any acceptable middle ground with you on this and I refuse to try to convince you of any. do not bother with a reply, I’m not checking back on it, you sir have closed your mind and set your stance, and it is a waste of effort to try to reason with you on this point.

is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?

I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!

by KC Fanatic on Aug 16, 2009 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions

+1 KC Fanatic

Haley bashing – Not guilty.

Thigpen Booster – Guilty. Still haven’t looked at the 4th quarter very closely, but I’m prepared to join the “Not an NFL QB” club after I do, based on the things I’ve heard from some good heads.

I’d forgotten that Waters was the one who called the meeting. Supports my “Chip on his shoulder” impression. I took away the impression, but forgot that it all started when Waters called a meeting outta the blue. I think he wanted out of KC before he even met Haley, and didn’t get the answers he wanted.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Aug 16, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions