Football Outsiders on Glenn Dorsey
by Matt Conner on Aug 14, 2009 12:00 PM CDT
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Training Camp
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PrintAaron Schatz from Football Outsiders recently put together a write-up on the Chiefs. He praises Jamaal Charles as one to watch and targets Damion MacIntosh as one he's down on (believing Colin Brown will eventually get the job perhaps). But he had several words on Glenn Dorsey that seem rather interesting:
"Many scouts considered defensive tackle Glenn Dorsey the best player available in the 2008 draft, and the Chiefs were considered lucky when he fell to them at the fifth spot. A lot has changed in a year.
"Dorsey struggled in his rookie season, but so do a lot of highly drafted defensive linemen. In fact, Dorsey's struggles might have been overstated, at least when it comes to playing the run. Dorsey made his average run tackle last season after a gain of just 1.5 yards, the best figure of any of the Chiefs' defensive linemen. However, he had problems on pass plays and was unable to get consistent penetration.
"Now, Kansas City's decision to shift to a 3-4 defensive scheme leaves Dorsey without a position. The plan is to move him to defensive end, but the role of a 3-4 end is generally to soak up blockers, and that's not Dorsey's strength. In college, he was a player whose specialty was getting upfield and disrupting the quarterback. There's also a size problem; at 6-foot-1, he's smaller than other 3-4 ends. (The starting ends for both New England and Pittsburgh, for example, are 6-foot-5 or taller.)
"Dorsey compounded his problems because, like McIntosh, he failed conditioning tests at the start of Chiefs training camp. Right now, he doesn't seem to be a starter on the Chiefs' depth chart. In camp, he's been getting second-string snaps at right defensive end, behind third-round rookie Alex Magee."
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He was coddled his rookie year
which I don’t think has helped his work ethic. Hopefully with TJ on the other end working his tail off, he’ll have someone to set the bar for him. I’ll make no bones about it though, I’m worried about Dorsey.
by KansasCityShuffle on Aug 14, 2009 12:06 PM CDT reply actions
He has the same Defensive Line coach this year that he had last year
Dorsey was doomed in KC the moment they decided to switch to the 3-4.
He simply does not fit in that scheme and no amount of wishful thinking will change that fact.
That means Dorsey is going to be a situational player for the Chiefs. Thats a WHOLE lot of money to be paying a guy thats not going to be on the field half the time.
Herm also ran Club Med
Herm and his coaching staff failed to bring out a lot of the potential of phenomenal draft class. I don’t think it’s fair to evaluate one way or the other any of these guys until this team is in a position to compete for an entire four quarters. Then you can see what kind of talent you really have.
I could get more sacks with my sack
by ArrowSpread on Aug 14, 2009 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree he had the same Defensive Line Coach last year, however allow me to make an analogy
You work for a middle size company. You are a young talented grad student. You have a lot of potential. Your direct manager is very good and knows his staff. However the CEO, who your manager reports to, is very laid back, and does not have a clear idea about where the company is headed and he is not pushing anyone hard or in the right direction. No matter how good you and your manager are – if the culture within a company is set in a manner that does not encourage growth, innovation or any improvement – after a while you’ll be part of the system. Not to mention that as soon as you get your first real paycheck you will start loving life and forget you ever wanted to work hard.
Theres no question that Herm ran a bad camp
His early season record makes that abundently clear.
However that doesn’t change the fact that Dorsey is a complete misfit in the 3-4 and is most likely going to turn out to be a bust, not because he doesn’t have talent, but because he won’t be used properly.
"His early season record makes that abundently clear."
How about
“His two-year record makes that abundantly clear.”
Herm Edwards: "There's FOUR quarters in football?!"
Not So Fast...
I initially thought the same thing…Dorsey in the 3-4? Not going to work.
But than I decided to look around the league over a number of years even going back to the 80’s.
The 3-4 can be run many different ways and be successful. They can use the 3-4 DE to disrupt in the back field just like the 3 technique does in the 4-3. Its all a matter of having all areas covered as a unit. Look at Bruce Smith whom had 200 sacks as a DE. He played in a 3-4, 4-3, and other variations, and had over 10 sacks in 14 out of 19 seasons.
If Dorsey really is the player we thought he was when he was drafted…he will be successful in any scheme. If he is not the player we thought he was…well you are absolutely right about what you said.
by ChiefsFan79 on Aug 14, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
+1
And rec’d. Excellent reference back to Bruce.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 14, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
good stuff. +1
that would be great and ideal. If it is this kind of fit then they will keep him, no question about it. This staff is looking to get the most out of anyone they can.
One difference I will point out though:
smith 6’4", 262 LBS
Dorsey, 6’1" (sometimes, i’ve heard between 5’11" and 6’1") 297 (and heavier sometimes)
by jakethesnake27 on Aug 14, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Bigger wingspan than expected, though.
Part of the reason he succeeded in college is his quick first step and long arms. People complain about his height often, but most of that is attributed to the guy across the line having a reach advantage. Because of his over-large wingspan, the height argument is less important than some make it.
And Bruce bulked up a bit when he played inside the line, I’d guess those figures are more akin to when he played 4-3 DE.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 14, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
true
and that is the more important figure.
by jakethesnake27 on Aug 14, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
It’s nothing against Dorsey really, but I’m skeptical he’ll make the transition and be anything more than average at best. I think they’ll give him a shot, but if he doesn’t pan out in the next year or two they’ll be shopping him. I do hope he can make the transition to DE, though…I just don’t have high expectations that he’ll do so.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
4. Larry Johnson has already played his last meaningful game for the Kansas City Chiefs. He's gone before the 2009 season starts.
5. Larry Johnson will gain 0 yards rushing for the 2009 Kansas City Chiefs.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
I Agree
The thing to remember as well is that in many respects this is Dorsey’s second rookie year with a new position etc. But you don’t stop being an explosive defensive lineman just because you are in a different defensive scheme. The question is whether he was ever an explosive NFL lineman. And it is way too early to tell.
Consistency is only a value if you are not a screw up.
Fair Assessment
Guess we’ll find out this year just how much explosiveness Dorsey’s got. What worries me most, however, is that he has the same line coach he had last year…the same line coach who’s developed exactly one pass rusher in over a decade of coaching defensive line.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
4. Larry Johnson has already played his last meaningful game for the Kansas City Chiefs. He's gone before the 2009 season starts.
5. Larry Johnson will gain 0 yards rushing for the 2009 Kansas City Chiefs.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
It doesn't sound like he's a good fit as a DE for the 3-4 defense....
….simply based on his size. If that proves correct then hopefully he’ll do well playing in some of the hybrid formations and he’ll be good trade bait for a 4-3 based team. Atlanta is going to struggle defensively this year, maybe they would make a good offer.
dead horse
that’s the same argument everyone was making all offseason.
He’ll be fine…he’s not getting traded
"I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
Why would we do that when we could easily get a first rounder for Dorsey right now?
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Aug 14, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I love
when people say “hes not a good fit because of his size”. How many guys have been “too big” or “too small” and still played well? “Oh hes 2-3 inches too short and 10lbs too light”
Thats bullshit. Either you can play, or you cant play. Size is an advantage, but it doesnt make the player, and doesnt dictate talent. Steve Smith is 5’9, 185lbs. Thats tiny for a WR. But hes a beast.
Dorsey has a large wingspan and long arms are important for a linemen. Will he be a pro bowl allstar? I dont think so. Not this year, and maybe not ever. But does he have a chance to succeed? Definately.
I hate the size arguement because theres always a player who is deemed too big or too small and proves people wrong. I hope Dorsey proves everyone wrong.
something to consider...
As mentioned in a previous post, he will be playing between tackle & guard in the 34/43 under scheme. If he has a decent year or at least shows some signs of quality play it could help his value
by jakethesnake27 on Aug 14, 2009 12:11 PM CDT reply actions
I'd much rather wait and see with Dorsey
He was solid last year but wasn’t used correctly. It remains to be seen if we’ll do any better with this system in utilizing his natural abilities. Counting him out at this point doesn’t make much sense.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Has Schatz been in camp?
Or is he just basing this off of the same information that we all are? Because if he’s been reading the reports (or even just showed up for a practice or two), he’s got the same info we have…and I wouldn’t draw those conclusions about Dorsey from that.
Magee’s been getting some reps, sure. Right now, Dorsey’s running with the first team, though. In fact, it’s Boone/Edwards/Dorsey!
He didn’t fail last year, he’s statistically right up there with some of the elites in their rookie years. He was utilized incorrectly and was coddled.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
I stand corrected with respect to where Boone is lining up, at the moment..
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I'm just pulling that from the 1st team defense over the past couple of days...
They could show up tomorrow with Jackson-Tank-Magee for all we really know. Boone might be who pushes him as the regular season gets closer, though.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 14, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
You're very kind.
I had to hop in my truck and see what lane the oncoming traffic was in, so I could label my left and right hands with a sharpie.
Oh, and then I had to change lanes. People are SOOOoooooo uptight, sometimes.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Oh ye of little faith.
You sound like the same guys who threw a party for the Golden Calf whilst I communed with the Big Guy up on top of Mt. Sinai.
If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, surely you would move mountains.
Nice article, for reminding us that Dorsey WAS thought to be the best NFL prospect in last year’s draft. Started every game in his rookie year.
And while Magee is gonna push EVERYbody on that d-line, Dorsey’s biggest competition right now is Alphonso Boone.
And jakethesnake27, while you’re contemplating how his having a successful year will help his trade value, perhaps you should consider the possibility that he will do well, and remain a Chief for years to come.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
that's always the assumption
If he fit well in to the system we run, of course we should keep him. However, if his individual skill set varies from our team’s direction then the two should part ways.
by jakethesnake27 on Aug 14, 2009 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
while I understand your faith
I would encourage you to think past the idealistic approach that everything will go perfect and consider alternatives scenarios
by jakethesnake27 on Aug 14, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
If you follow my posts (No one does), you'll know that I don't hesitate to raise doubts.
My issue with Dorsey is the apparently chronic left leg injury. My concerns revolve around his health. If healthy, I think he’ll be more than OK. If not, I don’t see much trade value in him.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
sure
but you have to admit that it is a distinct possibility if it ends up being a less than ideal fit.
by jakethesnake27 on Aug 14, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
but
I understand being tired of hearing about it.
by jakethesnake27 on Aug 14, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Dorsey made his average run tackle last season after a gain of just 1.5 yards, the best figure of any of the Chiefs’ defensive linemen. However, he had problems on pass plays and was unable to get consistent penetration.
Gee, do you think that might be related to the fact that he was in a 2-tech most of the time, and wasn’t supposed to get penetration?
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Aug 14, 2009 12:47 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Hey now
He did have 10% of our sack total last year. =)
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Aug 14, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions
You're right
They played directly over the Guard a lot of the time. You can’t utilize the short-burst explosiveness he has if his first step to penetration has to be lateral.
“The first step to penetration… must not be lateral”
-Confucius
"This aint Club Med, baby!"
"The pain train is comin!!!"
"WOOOOoooooo!"
-The Terrible Terry Tate
by ArrowSpread on Aug 14, 2009 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Man, I wish I could rec myself for that
Pure gold.
"This aint Club Med, baby!"
"The pain train is comin!!!"
"WOOOOoooooo!"
-The Terrible Terry Tate
by ArrowSpread on Aug 14, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
The amazing thing, ArrowSpread, is your humble modesty.
You’re a lot like I’m.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Then I'm glad to be amongst like company :-)
"This aint Club Med, baby!"
"The pain train is comin!!!"
"WOOOOoooooo!"
-The Terrible Terry Tate
Yeah, but ...
I think Confucius was talking sex, not football.
by JacinB on Aug 14, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What ever happend to being loyal to tour players?!
Dorsey had an ok rookie year with a shity team, big deal, get over it. I hate all these so called chiefs fans that bash Dorsey for the team suckin so damn bad last year, it wasn’t his fault! And i’ll feel even more bad for him if he doesn’t have 5+ sacks and 40+ tackles this year, because you know the bashers will be at it again. Give this guy a chance and show him some support this year and hope to god our Chiefs kick ass this year.
It's no secret
That it takes linemen, especially interior linemen, a few years to develop.
I’m hardly worried.
"This aint Club Med, baby!"
"The pain train is comin!!!"
"WOOOOoooooo!"
-The Terrible Terry Tate
Nobody is bashing Dorsey
He had a decent rookie year as far as Defensive Tackles go.
The problem is he’s not a defensive tackle anymore. They’re squeezing him into a role he’s not suited for and its a damn shame.
Sorry, but you don't know. They might have a scheme that fit's him perfectly. At least, let's
wait and see before throwing the guy under a bus.
I'm not throwing Dorsey under the bus
Wish people would quit saying that.
I think if he played DT he could be one of the great ones.
Warren Sapp was a great DT. But when he went to the Raiders and they started using him in places other than the 3 technique, he wasn’t nearly as effective.
Theres nothing wrong with a player that plays best at a certain position. The problem comes up if the coaching doesn’t PUT him in that position and forces him into another that he will not succeed in.
Theres nothing wrong with a player that plays best at a certain position. The problem comes up if the coaching doesn’t PUT him in that position and forces him into another that he will not succeed in.
But you can’t know that…
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
He Can't, But
He can make an educated guess based on the traits that successful 3-4 DEs on other teams possess. Dorsey seems to come up short in relation to them.
That’s not to say he won’t succeed, but the odds don’t really favor it. He’s a DT who is best suited for that position, not DE…that’s not a recipe for success.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
4. Larry Johnson has already played his last meaningful game for the Kansas City Chiefs. He's gone before the 2009 season starts.
5. Larry Johnson will gain 0 yards rushing for the 2009 Kansas City Chiefs.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
And he will be deployed and employed
pretty much as a defensive tackle. In fact, Dorsey’s body type and skill set are perfectly suited for the under tackle position in the 4-3 under. If he can’t be effective in 5-tech – even as a changeup, after the offense is funnelled away from the middle – it will limit the things the Chiefs can do defensively with him in there.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
sure
I don’t mean to come accross as bashing. I like him. I liked the pick, but I didn’t like the way we utilized him. And if he’s not a good fit for what they want him to do, then I think we need to look elsewhere.
by jakethesnake27 on Aug 14, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
For sure
Heavens forbid somebody doesn’t instantly become the best player in the world the moment he takes his first NFL snaps. What ever happened to believing in player developement.
by Chieffan_Toby on Aug 14, 2009 7:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
High 1st-rounders, especially those scouted as "the best player in the draft,"
SHOULD come right in and START, dammit!
Oh. He did. And he made it thru the whole season, fighting thru some significant nicks along the way.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
And I agree with that… I just meant don’t expect them to have the best numbers in the league at the position. I thought he did a pretty solid job for what he was asked to do.
by Chieffan_Toby on Aug 14, 2009 8:43 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I think he's agreeing with you
"This aint Club Med, baby!"
"The pain train is comin!!!"
"WOOOOoooooo!"
-The Terrible Terry Tate
Yeah
Noticed that after I looked at again. That’s what happens when u try to comment and work at the same time. What’s more important… Chiefs or sick people.. Hmm close… Haha
by Chieffan_Toby on Aug 14, 2009 9:51 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I think he'll be fine, good coaching should know how to use him no matter what
his size is or how much experience he has. He’s shown he could be monster when he’s on, let’s hope this year is the start of something beautiful.
Hmmmm.....
Any more dead horses we want to dig up and beat on for awhile? Isn’t it about time for another Cassel vs Thigpen debate?
Dorsey will be fine.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
by Zodeman on Aug 14, 2009 1:41 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Or how about...
Should we have traded Gonzo for next years second pick?
by Chiefsfan1970 on Aug 14, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Lol
dead horse alert
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
That explains the smell.
Oh. Never mind. The wind shifted, and I’m living in Greeley, CO – Stockyard Central.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Dorsey's only going to get better with age
The guy is a talented athlete. He’s a strong compact man that plays with leverage and his long arms. He’s got a great base and he rates high on the quick twitch muscles. Very good reflexes and is flexible for a man his size. He just needs to keep his weight down and get the injury bug behind him.
He can play in this league, he’s jut in his 2nd year the DT position is one of the hardest positions to transition into. Your going from the toughest guy on the block in college to arguably becoming one of the weaker players in the NFL. These D-line and O-line are marauders, bigger and veterans and can out muscle and out technique most rookies. Dorsey needs to get in condition and it sounds and already looks like he’s in much better shape now than at any point last year.
by cameltoeuchdowns on Aug 14, 2009 1:46 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
+1
Very good comment
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Aug 14, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd be more concerned if they were trying to play Glen Dorsey...
at Nose Tackle(even though he played a similar role last year in the 4-3). He would be wasted talent at the position. A 3-4 DE is more like the 4-3 DT position Dorsey played in college.
Also to compare Dorsey to Bruce Smith is not a good analogy as Bruce Smith never was an interior lineman. Neil Smith played both the 3-4 DE, and 4-3 DE too… The similarity between Neil Smith, and Glen Dorsey is their realitive wingspans. Granted Neil Smith dwarves Dorsey on his massive 7 foot wingspan.
The big difference between Neil and Bruce Smith compared to Dorsey is both Smiths were leaner.
I think the point was that he succeeded as a 3-4 DE.
161 of his sacks came as a 3-4 DE, which (under a traditional system) tends to highlight the OLB. Bruce used to come in around 300 pounds when he first started in the NFL. They cut him back to 275. It was a different time, and while a 275 pound DE could still succeed, the sheer amount of weight given up would be difficult to overcome.
Bruce was quick, agile, and powerful. He beat many guys with his first step. In that, they are similar.
He’s also a Hall of Famer with the sack record. He’s got a bigger wingspan, and no he never played inside as a DT in a 4-3, so he had a little different mentality than a guy like Dorsey. I’m not about to crown Dorsey as the next Bruce Smith, but there’s potential for penetration there. If Dorsey can utilize it (and the coaches utilize HIM) correctly will be the true test.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
Bruce Smith was a beast with like 4 percent body fat....
The best analogy would probably be another 4-3 DT transitioning into a 3-4 DE… I can’t think of any that have been successful, and maybe Glen will be the first.
I think that this has said it best about Dorsey.
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/8/13/987556/glenn-dorsey-from-tradable-asset
Hmmm interesting...
Neil Smith had 4 interceptions in his career… Bruce Smith had 2. Derrick Thomas only had 1.
I never think about defensive linemen making interceptions. LOL
no doubt...
but at the same time that’s the way Marty wanted him.
I don't disagree.
Hence, the counterpoint to my own argument was two of those three things.
The argument up above (which I may have incorrectly assumed you were referring to) is that Dorsey won’t be able to get penetration because 3-4 DE’s aren’t supposed to do that. ChiefsFan79 brought up Bruce Smith as a penetrating linesman who played the 3-4 DE, just as a reference to show that it can happen.
We’ll just have to see how he’s utilized. Since he’s really run the 4-3 his entire career, there could be something there that we haven’t seen.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
Nope I wasn't argueing that he couldn't be a penetrating linesman.
Sorry to be confusing…
The whole thing on the Bruce Smith has me thinking about Glen Dorsey as a 4-3 end. I can’t wait for us to start playing games so we can see what our defensive line can do….
Before you say he doesn't fit maybe we should do something like, oh i don't know play a game.
Pro football coaches seem to think he can do it. I’ll take there evaluation over yours.
David Logue
The size card
of being too short is being way over-played, in my opinion! In the 3-4 his primary responsibility will be to plug-up the run, in which case the leverage battle is usually the key & it will be much harder to get under his pads to move him than it would be if he were taller. Maybe I’m missing something but I believe that the advantage of being taller is in rushing the qb & getting your arms in the passing lane; whereas, he will be shooting the gap, plugging the run & then rushing the qb. I don’t see his size being anything other than an advantage!
And fortunately, this argument will begin to be answered on the field in “short” fashion!
I agree...
This whole size thing is stupid. There have been all kinds of football players in all positions who weren’t “prototype” body types and were very successful. As long as Dorsey keeps working hard and learning, he will do a good job. He definitely has the physical skills and can get off the snap very quickly.
Can we please just stop talking about this now??? Seriously.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Aug 14, 2009 4:18 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
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