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Around SBN: Ohio State And Florida Target 2013 Receiver Recruits

The Case for More Than One Kicker in Camp

We've had some surprising debate over the release of Connor Barth this week.  I personally have taken the position that this was a mistake.  Many have expressed their surprise at the high level of debate (drama) this has sparked here at AP.  I'll try to keep it short enough, but I wanted to make the case as to why this is a critical position and getting it right is so important.

In defense of Barth's release by the Chiefs, many here are of the opinion that if Succop sucks, we'll get rid of him and bring in the next kicker.  It's not a big deal because they don't have to learn the playbook.  Well, true, they don't but...

Star-divide

KICKERS ARE HEAD CASES.

If we have to replace Succop, who is an unproven rookie with mediocre college statistics, at mid-season then we have a compound problem.  For starters, the best kickers are already on teams.  It takes practice to be consistently good.  If a guy is just hanging around at mid season waiting for a spot to open up, he's there hanging around for a reason.  :-\ He's also not likely to have been practicing as though he were on a team. :-\ That tends to make a guy rusty.  As far as the mechanics of kicking go, I have a bit of a frame of reference here because I played competitive soccer for nearly 30 years and I also did some kicking in highschool football.  Any golfers here?  Yeah, the level of difficulty is similar to driving a golf ball straight down the fairway.  The only way to get good is to practice.  Let me tell you, kicking and oblong ball with power and accuracy under variable wind conditions is an art.  It's more difficult than you might think.

The really weird thing about a kicker on a football team is that they often exist on the fringe in the locker room.  What they do requires a ton of practice and technique. On the field, it's probably the single most individualistic function in the game.  Kickers often practice pretty much by themselves and yet they bear the responsibility for putting a large number of points on the board for the team.  If they get into a rut, it can be a massive head trip for them.  They have to battle with themselves mentally and physically to correct their mechanics, not to mention their shaken confidence which can also be a tough to overcome.  Fans boo at them.  They have 52 of the biggest meanest toughest hombre's on earth looking at them in disappointment because they're costing the team wins.  Coaches start closing in on them to see what they can do to correct the problem.  Rightfully so to all of these things, but in many ways this all feeds on itself and makes everything more difficult on the kicker.

If the Chiefs were to just release Succop because he's not doing well after five or six weeks and they bring in the next kicker, the odds are stacked against him.  He has to  come in when everybody's (fans, players and coaches) confidence in the kicking game is already dammaged and knock the rust off in a hurry.  That's a couple of strikes against the guy already.  Like I said, kickers are head cases.  Their game is incredibly mental.  That's why you have to be sure about who your kicker is going into the start of the season.   It's a far more critical and difficult position to get right than most people realize. 

Not having Barth in camp in my opinion is a mistake whether he would have won the job over Succop or not.  The only way to have known would to have them compete for the job.  OTA's don't equate game scenarios where pre-season games do.

Poll
Are the Chiefs making the right move by only bringing Succop into camp?
Yes
34 votes
No
20 votes
Dead Horse
34 votes

88 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

Comment 42 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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I'm definetely in your camp Bucko

But OMG, thats just about enough Kicker debate.

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM CDT reply actions  

Lol

I know. What’s done is done. All we can do is hope they got this one right at this point. It was still mildly raging on as the AP conveyor moved things further towards the bottom of the heap. I just had to!

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 30, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dude

The release of Barth was horrible! How are you going to encourage competition at every position..except kicker? Thats ridiculous. There easily could have been another player cut. Lets take a look..

RB’s. Battle, Charles, LJ, Savage, Smith, and Williams. 6 runningbacks? Seriously? Battle, Savage and Smith have had their flashes but if I had to choose one of them to keep, it’d have to be Kolby Smith. LJ and Charles should be automatic. That leaves Smith and Williams. How many RB’s are we gunna keep?

CB’s. Jackie Bates, Ricardo Colclough, Travis Daniels, Londen Fryer, Flowers, Carr, Leggett, and Washington. 8 CB’s. I’m almost POSITIVE that Bates, Daniels, or Fryer could have been cut.

LB’s. Jovan Belcher, Dacus, Beisel, Hali, DJ, Corey Mays, McBride, Corey Smith, Studebaker, Z. Thomas, Mike Vrabel, Pierre Walters, Demarrio Williams. 13 LB’s?! Thats enough for 3 teams and an extra reserve! Belcher, Dacus, Mays, Smith, Studebaker, Walters..not one of them could have been cut?

Heres the player that I think should have been cut if 1 were needed to be to make room for barth. WR RODNEY WRIGHT #11. The guy is 5’9 181lbs. Hes 30 years old, drafted 7th round in 2002 by the bills. Never played a game in the NFL. What could he possibly have now, that he never had before. Hes tiny for a WR. Sure, hes about the same size as Steve Smith, but if he had anywhere near Smiths talents, I’m sure he would have played atleast somewhere in the NFL. We kept this guy but cut Barth?

We NEED competition at EVERY position. I dont care how good your track record is with kickers. Barth did a good job last year, the only 2 kicks he missed were in the same game (every kicker has a bad game) and one of those was a 50 yarder. Not sure how long the other kick was.

Anyways, I agree. We need to go to camp with 2 kickers ATLEAST for a week. IMO, you keep 2 kickers until atleast the 2nd cut. If they both make the first cut, that gives them more motivation to push themselves to beat out the other. I dont see why people are so content with going to camp with one kicker.

by Petey14 on Jul 30, 2009 12:38 PM CDT reply actions  

It's not about whether guys will make the final roster

It’s about having bodies for training camp. Coaches constantly stress that if they do not have enough bodies at each position they can’t get as much done in terms of reps, and resting starters. Rodney Wright may not be a candidate to make the team, but he can play on kick return and kickoff coverage while regulars like Charles, Bradley, Webb (who would normally be ST players on the 53 man roster) are working with the offense or resting.

Looking through NFL rosters, only a handful of teams have 1 Kicker and 1 Punter on the roster going into training camp (as of today). I’ve listed the teams with the kicker they have on their roster:

Miami Dan Carpenter
NE Stephen Gostowski
Cincy Shayne Graham
Houston Kris Brown
NYG Larry Tynes
Chicago Robbie Gould
Cardinals Neil Rackers
St. Louis Josh Brown

All of these guys are proven kickers, but it’s also interesting that Pioli, Haley, and ST Coach Steve Hoffman’s old teams all carry just 2 kickers heading into TC

It should be noted that about half of the remaining teams are carrying 2 punters and not 2 kickers. Also, a lot of teams that have incumbant kickers are carry an extra for whatever reason. (Carolina w/John Kasay, Indy w/ Vinatieri, Atlanta w/Jason Elam to name a few).

What does all of this mean? Probably nothing, but it’s interesting to see what other teams are doing. It seems like a philosophical approach more than anything else.

by RedNose on Jul 30, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

that should've read

All of these guys are proven kickers, but it’s also interesting that Pioli, Haley, and ST Coach Steve Hoffman’s old teams all carry just 1 kicker and 1 punter heading into TC.

by RedNose on Jul 30, 2009 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting, Kasay, Vinatieri, Elam

Are all veterans and don’t need to be doing all the kicking duties in training camp so that’s maybe why those teams have a 2nd kicker in camp. The 2nd kicker is of no threat to those guys. The other teams with a 2nd kicker may have them for kick-off duties only.

2009-10 Predictions:
1. Chiefs will win ATLEAST 6 games, which is a big improvement over 6 wins in 2 seasons
2. Succop will bring stability to the K position for the first time in years
3. Chiefs D will record more than 10 sacks
4. Cassel will be a top 15 QB
5. Todd Haley won't make a poster and jump around holding it up welcoming the Chiefs players to summer camp, I mean TRAINING camp

by Chiefs_KC on Jul 30, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

That’s what I’m talking about! Dump one of the guys who’s not gonna make it anyway.

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 30, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

you said kickers sitting at home waiting for a team to call

are sitting there for a reason. Did you forget that Barth was sitting last year waiting for a team to call last year? Nothing wrong with having two kickers in camp but Barth is not that good.

Herm is gone things are better with that one move!!

by bringbacktheglory on Jul 30, 2009 12:52 PM CDT reply actions  

"Barth is not that good"

But Ryan Succop is? HES UNTESTED!

Barth went 10/12, the only kicks he missed were in the San Diego game where he missed 2. One of them was a 50 yarder. 24/24 on extra points. 83.3 FG Percentage. I think that deserves a chance to compete in camp. Barth was cut and brought back AFTER Novak hung himself. And Barth gave us a sign of stability. From week 8 until week 15, we didnt miss a single FG. That was the most stability we’ve had at the position in a long time.

Kickers sitting at home “are sitting there for a reason”…really? So don’t you think it would be better to have an untested rookie battle it out in camp with a somewhat experienced 2nd year player?

by Petey14 on Jul 30, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

you are the one that said (Kickers sitting at home are sitting there for a reason)

Why do you think Barth was sitting last season till we called, because a kicker not only needs to have a good FG percentage but also be able to kick off. Chiefs opponents started at the 30 or better every time they got the ball. Kickoffs are just as important as kicking a FG, if you give the other team a short field every time they will score a lot of points.
Bring in another kicker, Competition is good. Also the coaches have seen what both kickers can do at the OTA’s and they have last years games to look at for Barth, I think they know more about him than any of us ever will. That is the reason he was let go.

Herm is gone things are better with that one move!!

by bringbacktheglory on Jul 30, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yea

maybe he was sitting at home b/c he was an undrafted rookie kicker….they dont get too many calls or opportunities like a Vet. would…..like Novak…who by the way blew it!

Great players dont win championships.....Great TEAMS win championships

by DT58forever on Jul 30, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

P.S.

I could care less about 5 to 10 yards the D has to make the stop regardless! I would rather have my 3 points then give up 5-10 yards on a kickoff

Great players dont win championships.....Great TEAMS win championships

by DT58forever on Jul 30, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I mean

I would rather have my 3 points and give up 5-10 yards on a kickoff

Great players dont win championships.....Great TEAMS win championships

by DT58forever on Jul 30, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your 3 points

Are worthless when field position allows the other team to easily score an equal 3 if not more. Special teams need to help out the defense by NOT allowing the opposition to gain field advantage. If the opposition is going to score they need to work for it instead of us handing them yards and making it easier for them.

by Spiderwomn69 on Jul 30, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's nuts

when kickers often lead a team in scoring. How about we get better team play on the kick-off unit to prevent the opponent from running that extra 5 – 10 yards back. If the individual can put up points keep him and let the team (TEAM!) work as a unit to save the yards.

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 30, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Isnt

I thought Colquitt was a good Kick Off Specialist but he was hurt last year so he wasnt able to do it.

I guess I could be wrong.

by Petey14 on Jul 30, 2009 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I want it all

Better special teams, a kicker who can make 50 yd FGs AND better field position starting with the kicker.

Conner Barth has already proved he is NOT that guy.

Mediocrity is no longer acceptable on this team.

Alright, that’s all I’m saying. I’m over it like a rainbow.

by Spiderwomn69 on Jul 30, 2009 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

It wouldn't be an issue for me

if Succop didn’t have a mediocre track record. I’m with you. I want it all too! I dropped another 4 bills on NFL Sunday Ticket so I can watch these guys dammit. I’m tired of seein’em loose!

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 30, 2009 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Buck'O, If you close one eye when looking at Succop's track record

It’s not as mediocre as some are making it out to be. Prior to last season, when the story is Succop was dealing with an abdominal strain for part of the season, Succop inside of 40 yds in his college career was 16/17 (94%). He also was good on 22 of his last 26 attempts inside of 47 yds (84.6%).

Season by season analysis: Was 80% in 2006 (16/20). In 2007 was 13/17 (76.4%) so he missed 4 FGs that year. However, if you look at the 4 he missed, 3 of the 4 misses were from 47 yds or beyond. He was dealing with the ab. strain in 2008, and went 20/30 overall, but finished the year going 6/7 (85.7%). If you take out a 4 game stretch from 10/4-10/18 when he went 3/9, (I can only assume that this is when he was hurting) the season numbers are 17/21 (81%). I think his career college long FG is 55 yds. He’s pretty accurate inside of 47 yds. He gets opportunities to try 50+ yd field goals due to his leg strength so it brings down his overall % a bit.

I’m tired of debating the topic of whether Barth should have been cut or not, but he has been so I’m just trying to make those that don’t like the move to feel a little better about what Succop’s bringing to the team.

2009-10 Predictions:
1. Chiefs will win ATLEAST 6 games, which is a big improvement over 6 wins in 2 seasons
2. Succop will bring stability to the K position for the first time in years
3. Chiefs D will record more than 10 sacks
4. Cassel will be a top 15 QB
5. Todd Haley won't make a poster and jump around holding it up welcoming the Chiefs players to summer camp, I mean TRAINING camp

by Chiefs_KC on Jul 30, 2009 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Nice effort Chiefs_KC

unfortunately this is one I’m going to have reservations about for awhile. Until it’s proven that there’s no need for concern. Whether it’s Barth or some other Kicker, I’m of the opinion that a healthy competition at each position is the best way to maximize our chances.

If Pioli is the genius we all hope him to be and he has indeed found the second coming of Adam Vinatieri, I’ll be one happy man.

As for debating about kickers, I think it’s a healthy debate. At least it’s about the Chiefs. We could always go back to discussing what the best Real Men of Genius ad is! :)

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 30, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Because of course

What I really wanted was a guy coming off a serious injury as our one and only option placekicking option.

After the Croyle experiment, you’d think we’d shy away from big red flags on players physicals.

by Druful on Jul 30, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please people

Note my comment about who is coaching our kicker.

Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.

by Zodeman on Jul 30, 2009 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

2009-10 Predictions:
1. Chiefs will win ATLEAST 6 games, which is a big improvement over 6 wins in 2 seasons
2. Succop will bring stability to the K position for the first time in years
3. Chiefs D will record more than 10 sacks
4. Cassel will be a top 15 QB
5. Todd Haley won't make a poster and jump around holding it up welcoming the Chiefs players to summer camp, I mean TRAINING camp

by Chiefs_KC on Jul 30, 2009 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, Succop is that good

If he’s not and missing FGs in pre-season, then Pioli and Haley will bring in someone else to evaluate. There are two veteran FAs still out there, Stover and Carney and both were better than Barth last year.

2009-10 Predictions:
1. Chiefs will win ATLEAST 6 games, which is a big improvement over 6 wins in 2 seasons
2. Succop will bring stability to the K position for the first time in years
3. Chiefs D will record more than 10 sacks
4. Cassel will be a top 15 QB
5. Todd Haley won't make a poster and jump around holding it up welcoming the Chiefs players to summer camp, I mean TRAINING camp

by Chiefs_KC on Jul 30, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your sack prediction is "More than 10"?

Reach for the stars!

Happiness is a long walk with a putter in your hand.

by craig in calgary on Jul 30, 2009 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd like to get atleast 2 predictions right so I don't look like a total hack with the predictions

2009-10 Predictions:
1. Chiefs will win ATLEAST 6 games, which is a big improvement over 6 wins in 2 seasons
2. Succop will bring stability to the K position for the first time in years
3. Chiefs D will record more than 10 sacks
4. Cassel will be a top 15 QB
5. Todd Haley won't make a poster and jump around holding it up welcoming the Chiefs players to summer camp, I mean TRAINING camp

by Chiefs_KC on Jul 30, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Since they only got 10 last year....

and the sports writers have been complaining that they didn’t add a pass rusher in the draft offseason they make it sound like they’re going to get fewer this year. Anything over ten is better than last year. I’d like to think they can average atleast 2/game. 50 might be reaching for the stars

2009-10 Predictions:
1. Chiefs will win ATLEAST 6 games, which is a big improvement over 6 wins in 2 seasons
2. Succop will bring stability to the K position for the first time in years
3. Chiefs D will record more than 10 sacks
4. Cassel will be a top 15 QB
5. Todd Haley won't make a poster and jump around holding it up welcoming the Chiefs players to summer camp, I mean TRAINING camp

by Chiefs_KC on Jul 30, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's a dead horse

Please stop kicking the bloated carcass.

The move took me by surprise, but I think they must have had good reason. Possible reasons? They just didn’t like Barth either because of attitude, talent, physical abilty, or not listening to coaches. We out here will never know. Succop us bigger, stronger, and apparently they believe he can work out. Before you freak out too much about his college stats, remember who our kicking coach is and review his history with bringing along other kickers. I think we’ll be OK.

Oops…sorry. Didn’t mean to kick the poor dead animal again.

Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.

by Zodeman on Jul 30, 2009 1:57 PM CDT reply actions  

Just to fill you in on Hoffman a little

From the mothership

Hoffman’s latest star pupil was Dolphins rookie K Dan Carpenter. Under Hoffman’s guidance in 2008, Carpenter connected on 21 of 25 FG tries, including a streak of 14 straight makes, the longest string by a Miami rookie. In fact, eight of those FGs during that streak came from 40 yards or longer.

Now was Dan Carpenter a major player in college? From wikipedia

In his four years at Montana, Carpenter converted on 54 of 75 field goals (72.8 percent)

This is by no means the first kicker that has excelled under Hoffman. Let’s let the boys do their jobs and let the maggots have the horse.

Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.

by Zodeman on Jul 30, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Man

I could see the horrible name calling of this guy if hes not making the FG’s

Great players dont win championships.....Great TEAMS win championships

by DT58forever on Jul 30, 2009 2:01 PM CDT reply actions  

succop says...

he’s heard them all growing up….lol Let’s just hope none of us are chanting the foul names from our seats while watching the games…..I think he’ll do just fine. Now on to the next topic…..

by HeatherChiefsLvr on Jul 30, 2009 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh no you didn't

Let’s just wait and see how many teams are fighting to sign Barth. If any do at all (which I expect none will), it will be just another camp body and he’ll be released before start of the season. He was there waiting in free agency last year he’ll be there again waiting this year. As pointed out already by countless others we have a crowded backfield, defensive secondary, and LB corps. Each roster spot is valuable. What amazes me how people actually think Barth stood a chance after Pioli used a draft a select a kicker. Hello, isn’t that what you call writing on the wall?

by KansasCityShuffle on Jul 30, 2009 2:47 PM CDT reply actions  

+100

"I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"

by stagdsp on Jul 30, 2009 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are we really still talking about kickers?

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Jul 30, 2009 3:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Time to move onto another topic

Camp needs to hurry up and start so people can’t stop debating the importance of 2 kickers in training camp so there’s more news to disect.

2009-10 Predictions:
1. Chiefs will win ATLEAST 6 games, which is a big improvement over 6 wins in 2 seasons
2. Succop will bring stability to the K position for the first time in years
3. Chiefs D will record more than 10 sacks
4. Cassel will be a top 15 QB
5. Todd Haley won't make a poster and jump around holding it up welcoming the Chiefs players to summer camp, I mean TRAINING camp

by Chiefs_KC on Jul 30, 2009 3:48 PM CDT reply actions  

nice one!

LOL

Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!

by Buck'O on Jul 30, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've been waiting so long

for an opportunity to link to that GIF :D

by Tadpui on Jul 30, 2009 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

good timing, tadpui

made me laugh, although the debate is fine…

by sunny D on Jul 31, 2009 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it was the right move for a couple of reasons

It shows Succop that they have confidence in him (just because the same move didn’t work with Medlock doesn’t mean it won’t boost the confidence of this young kicker), and losing Barth is not like we cut Stenerud or something! Succop may suck, but until we have more to go on, he gets a pass.

Viva La Training Camp.

by TheQ on Jul 30, 2009 6:21 PM CDT reply actions  

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