The Chiefs Have a Plethora of Linebackers (Fourteen to be Exact)
by Chris Thorman on Jun 2, 2009 7:53 AM CDT
in 2009 Offseason
45 comments
And before we start, the movie scene that I always think of when I hear the word "plethora":
Jefe: I have put many beautiful pinatas in the storeroom, each of them filled with little suprises.
El Guapo: Many pinatas?
Jefe: Oh yes, many!
El Guapo: Would you say I have a plethora of pinatas?
Jefe: A what?
El Guapo: A *plethora*.
Jefe: Oh yes, you have a plethora.
El Guapo: Jefe, what is a plethora?
Jefe: Why, El Guapo?
El Guapo: Well, you told me I have a plethora. And I just would like to know if you know what a plethora is. I would not like to think that a person would tell someone he has a plethora, and then find out that that person has *no idea* what it means to have a plethora.
Jefe: Forgive me, El Guapo. I know that I, Jefe, do not have your superior intellect and education. But could it be that once again, you are angry at something else, and are looking to take it out on me?
Carrying on....
On a simple level, a switch from the 4-3 defense to the 3-4 defense is going to require more linebackers on your team, if only because you now have four guys standing up behind the defensive line instead of three. Unfortunately, it's a little more complicated than that. The Chiefs are trying to figure exactly who fits where during these OTAs.
Let's review our linebacker situation this morning to see exactly what we've got going on.
Where Did They Come From?
The Kansas City Chiefs currently have fourteen linebackers on their active roster. Of those fourteen linebackers, three were listed as linebackers on the roster during the 2008 season:
- Derrick Johnson
- Wes Dacus
- Demorrio Williams
The Chiefs added three more linebackers as college undrafted free agents in the weeks following the 2009 NFL draft:
- Jovan Belcher
- Corey Smith
- Pierre Walters
And the team added five more linebackers this off season through free agency and one trade:
Where did the next three linebackers come from? Well, as Kent Babb noted today (Welcome back by the way Kent), former defensive linemen Turk McBride, Tamba Hali and Andy Studebaker are now listed as linebackers on the active roster. We've known about a possible (probable) switch by these guys to the linebacker position but recently it's become official.
Hali at least played linebacker in college. McBride said that, other than a handful of situations, he hasn’t played enough of the position at any level to claim any real experience. Regardless, that’s his position now, and he knows that coaches won’t wait while he adjusts to a learning curve.
So the Chiefs bring in eight guys this off season that are listed as linebackers (those UDFAs are almost assuredly not competing for a starting spot; just special teams) and then convert three more current d-linemen to the same position.
Think that linebacker is an important position in the 3-4? Important enough to switch three players' positions? Todd Haley does.
"Well, it’s such a big change for a couple of those guys. I don’t think you can judge them too quick on anything that they’re doing. But, there’s nobody that we look at and say, ‘no chance,’ so far to this point. The dropping and those guys that have been defensive ends that are now stand-up and dropping and doing those things, that’s a big change for them. But, again, I think we’re seeing progress every day and that’s good."
The conversion from defensive line to linebacker for these guys appears to be permanent, judging by Turk McBride's comments:
"Definitely right now," McBride said, "I can’t say I’m a good linebacker. But the more repetitions I take, I think I should do well at it. I tell myself: You have to start thinking like a linebacker. I can’t think like a defensive lineman anymore.
Derrick Johnson's Role
Where does 2005 first round pick Derrick Johnson fit in all of this? As DJ himself noted a couple of weeks ago on the Red Zone podcast, he's going to be playing inside linebacker in the Chiefs' new 3-4 defense. Zach Thomas says that is the best position for DJ:
"This is going to be his best scheme," Thomas said. "It’s definitely weakside linebacker-friendly. It can exploit the talent that he has. Everybody knows how talented and fast he is. If he gets this down where he’s not thinking, just rolling around and just having fun and he knows what to do, he’ll be a great player in this scheme."
Todd Haley chimed in on DJ yesterday:
"I’m not going to get in to where he was drafted because that doesn’t really matter to me now. What matters to me is that I’ve got guys that can help us win and I would say the position he’s playing gives him a chance to excel. Derrick’s been following Zach around and you can see that there’s some chemistry building between that group in general. I like the way that he’s worked this off-season. He’s been a consistent guy, always here, always working, up in the room studying and trying to get better. I think he has a chance to get better this year."
It's a do or die year for Derrick Johnson. Then again, I thought last year was too...
Who is Playing Where?
New faces. New positions. Where do they all fit in? In the 4-3 we called the linebackers nicknames, based on position, from weakside to strong side "WILL, MIKE, SAM" (for strong, middle, weak). But in the 3-4 they are named (in the same order weak to strong) WILL, MIKE, TED, and SAM. We haven't gotten much info on who's playing where
As Kent Babb noted, yesterday during OTAs, the first team linebackers lined up with Tamba Hali and Monty Beisel lined up on the outside and Zach Thomas and Derrick Johnson playing inside. Once Mike Vrabel comes to camp though, Beisel will likely be relegated to the second team and Vrabel will take his place on the outside.
That leaves Turk McBride, Corey Mays, Darrell Robertson and Demorrio Williams as the possible backups to the starting crew. Belcher, Walters, Smith and Dacus are likely the guys who are more concerned with standing out on special teams as their chance to make the Chiefs' roster.
More 3-4 Reading
One place I have to recommend for clear analysis on the 3-4 defensive is hoosierteacher's MHR University posts on the topic. I highly recommend you check some of those stories out. TheQ also had a FanPost last month that started a great conversation about the depth chart.
There's really a lot of info I left out here because this could be just a massive post. Chime in with your thoughts below.
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Does anyone think McBride can lose enough weight
to succeed at this position, and would he take Vrabel’s place if/when Mike retires?
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Jun 2, 2009 8:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
6'2", 278 lbs
Is what he’s listed at. What do you think he needs to get down to? Vrabel is 6’4", 260 lbs.
by Joel Thorman on Jun 2, 2009 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking more around 260-265
278 lbs is a BIG LB, even if the guy is mostly a pass rusher..even when juicing I don’t think Merriman got up around 280.
At 265 I think Turk would be pretty fast, and I’ve always liked his motor. I could be a good weight for him.
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Jun 2, 2009 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I think it is great that the coaches have that much
talent to choose from. They will be able to determine who fits best (the right 53 people) into the scheme. Let the competition begin and may the best men win. I am hoping we have some studs emerge from this contest, ready and willing to do battle in the NFL.
by G.L. on Jun 2, 2009 8:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
maybe LB isn't a problem
It’s very early to tell just how these guys will transition. I would be willing to bet at least 2 out of three make it ok.
We’ve had lots of discussion about us not picking up impact edge rushers. However, when you see it broken down this way, maybe we have made a serious improvement here. I think Hali is the biggest key here, playing at a lighter weight and off the OL may turn him into a real force. Is he playing the weakside or strongside?
Looks to me like we may have enough talent in-house at LB to quit worrying about why we haven’t made any big FA moves.
by Zodeman on Jun 2, 2009 8:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Welcome by the way Zodeman
I know you’ve been around for a little while but I haven’t said hello yet.
by Chris Thorman on Jun 2, 2009 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thank you
Finally decided to quit just reading and start writing too. I LOVE this site.
by Zodeman on Jun 2, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ya welcome
I too have been reading for a long while, and decided to throw in my 2 cents every now and then
by ravenhawk on Jun 2, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Running this defense through my head.....
The combinations and looks that these coaches will be able to throw at offenses could be mind boggling. I really think the talent is close to in place on defense. This year we will have some tweeners that can’t hack it, and some elder statesmen that need replaced, but there is alot of bodies out there with nfl talkent in my opinion.
If the coaches can get these guys playing and not thinking, something that never happened in the cover 2, this defense could get scary. Especially if they can switch to a 4-3 under look really quick. Bring in Mcbride line him up hand down over the tackle with dorsey 1 one 1 over a guard with Tank and Jackson hopefully collapsing the pocket….to me that looks like an effective pass rush,and its just one of many combinations. Bring DJ and Flowers off the corner blitz. The only thing that worries me is not getting too many schemes too fast for these guys so they are thinking and reacting like they did last year. We end up being a jack of all trades and a master of none instead of really good at 2 or maybe 3 base defensive looks. Call me an optimist, but I really think the talent is close and if the coaches succeed this defense could really improve.
by Zimmy on Jun 2, 2009 9:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You're an optimist
I hope our defense plays a lot better than last year, and I do think we have talent. But realistically, we added to old LBs and two rookie DEs, and the rest of our defense is the same as last year. Those old LBs will be productive, but may start to have injury issues, and won’t be here long. The rookie DEs may play admirably, but will make a lot of rookie mistakes. And the coaches we brought in are the same bunch that coached a mediocre defense in Arizona. I am excited about shifting to a 3-4 defense and hope it works out, but am not going to be overly optimistic.
by Chiefs4Life on Jun 2, 2009 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is a lot of first day draft
talent on this “D”. Those “old” linebackers may do much better than many will give them credit for before the season starts. The Dorsey/Jackson chemistry will be an interesting factor to watch. Hali and Derrick Johnson know that it is do or die for them and will thus be very motivated. As far as coaching goes, it is a vast, vast, vast improvement over what we had last year. Maybe those coaches of that mediocre defense in Arizona got everything they could out of the players they had. I will reserve my judgment on this “D” until about halfway through the season. I think this defense may surprise a lot of folks, maybe even the coaches themselves.
by G.L. on Jun 2, 2009 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I expect
Thomas and Vrabel to play well, I just am slightly concerned their age (in football terms) may make them more prone to injury and our backups won’t be as good as they are. I am excited to see Dorsey play this year if he spends a lot of time in the 3-technique, which I believe suits his talents very well. Hali is going to be playing a new position that I believe may help his pas rush abilities but he has limited experience in pass coverage and hasn’t shown to be the best at run-stopping, so his value as an OLB will be limited. And, like Dorsey, I believe this defense can help DJ become a better player. So while I expect our defense to be better than last year, I don’t hold out much hope for a huge improvement.
by Chiefs4Life on Jun 2, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do share your concern
about Hali’s ability to drop and cover. But I guess I am just an optimist at heart. I think the defense will make huge strides this year. Some will undoubtedly fall by the wayside in the process, but so be it. I hope Hali can adjust and make the transition. If he doesn’t someone else will. It will be an interesting year to watch.
by G.L. on Jun 2, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
About the mediocre defense of the Cardinals
If I could see the chiefs defense look like the cardinals defense next year that would be quite the upgrade.
It’s sad but we need to realize that mediocre is ab out 10 times better than we have been the last 2 years.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
by Jux on Jun 2, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our defense is much improved with better conditioning alone
Not even the most talented players can make plays when their dog tired mentally and physically. I think the added emphasis on getting stronger and conditioning in the offseason will play a big role in our defense, and our team in general, being able to compete.
I could get more sacks with my sack
by ArrowSpread on Jun 2, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
And who is it that knows that we need to be conditioning? The coaches of a “mediocre” arizona cardnials.
I agree that we are much better off already than last year, but I’m tired of hearing about Arizona’s defense. They were leaps and bounds over what we did last year and if we could see the same success they had, we will be doing awesome.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
by Jux on Jun 2, 2009 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may be tired of hearing about AZ’s defense, but the fact is that most on AP overrate the defense that team played last year. It was mediocre at best, and it was not “leaps and bounds over what we did last year.” In fact, they averaged just 0.9 fewer points per game. How many additional games would a single point have helped KC add to the win total?
by burntorangehorn on Jun 2, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that will help a lot
I went to the Cardinal preseason game last year, and there was a notable difference in the two teams even in the pregame. Arizona looked faster, leaner, etc. I remember thinking (no B.S.) that Arizona had the look of a playoff team and Warner looked particulary sharp.
by TheQ on Jun 2, 2009 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is kinda my point though.....
I think the talent was there on defense, but the scheme and coaching was just horrible. You are right, there are too many ?‘s to be confident we will see a “good” defense on the field……but I can’t help but think that being good is a possibility for us if some things fall into place. By things I mean we will have to have some guys work out in spots, Hali or McBride or both need to make the transition, or we need to find places and sets for them to play where they will impact the game. Dorsey has to establish himself as a force, Tank has a new role as well, and one of our two first draft pics has to become a consistant player in his first year. Will all these things happen? nope. But I find myself thinking some guys are gonna fall into place, and some will be cast by the wayside. There is talent there is all I am saying, and I am excited to see what the new staff will do with the talent.
by Zimmy on Jun 2, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Running this defense through my mind....
I love the optimism Zimmy – THANK you!
I think you’re right about the talent being there. But I think the biggest difference we’re going to see in the defense this year is both our GM and our Coaching staff are trying to do the same thing — marching to the beat of the same drummer if you will.
King Carl and Herm were not pulling the team in the same direction. And their differences in philosophy created holes in our D that were not so obvious on paper — but were blinding on game day. I just really believe Pioli and Haley are working from the same wizzard handbook, and FINALLY we have a GM really trying to get his coach the kind of talent he needs.
I think a lot of fans view KC’s mgmt and coaching staff with a jaundiced eye – and rightfully so. It’s been so long since we’ve had a relevant team in the front office working together, many of us have forgotten what it looks like. But I really believe Clark Hunt has us back in the game with these guys. So I’m right there next to you on the band wagon, sippin the kool-aid and singing the happy song!
by CurtMerzFan on Jun 2, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Especially if they can switch to a 4-3 under look really quick. "
Oh, for crying out loud!
by Dagda on Jun 2, 2009 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ohhh here we go again...lol
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
by Jux on Jun 2, 2009 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Healthy
Can Thomas and Vrable stay healthy? Thirty something bodies break down. Donnie edwards is a good example. Having the ability to rotate bodies will help this IMO.
David Logue
by dklogue1 on Jun 2, 2009 9:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Plethora of knowledge
Hmm… If I admit that the Chiefs’ coaching staff knows more than me (such as Brian Johnston’s ability to play), how will I ever be able to continue making blog comments criticizing their choices? A dilemma.
It sounds like they expect Vrabal and Thomas have enough left in the tank to actually play and not just be “mentors” this year? However… How will the LBs ever be motivated to play well this year without an earful of obscenities being thrown at them like it was amateur night at the comedy club?
It will be very interesting to watch the development of the front seven this year. I’m growing increasingly excited that the coaches will ultimately put the defensive players in the best position to make plays this year, much like the offense in the second half of last year.
Regardless of how the team plays, I am also excited to shout things during NFL Ticket broadcasts that show off the plethora of knowledge that this site gives me…
- “Isn’t it great to have Vrabel this year, so that Derrick can be Mike, since Mike is Will, Zach is a super Ted and who knew Tamba could be Sam?!?!”
- “I TOLD you Tank could do the 3 technique!”
- “Aww! Phil Simms – Even though that was such a Guppy comment by your sidekick in the booth, you didn’t have to go all El Guapo on him!”
by sunny D on Jun 2, 2009 9:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A few corrections
Hali will likely play Will and Vrabel will likely play Sam. That would put Hali in the “Predator” position.
We expect Tank to play NT, so he will usually line up in a 0 or 1 technique (unless we shift to a 4-man front).
by Chiefs4Life on Jun 2, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to
the position names given in the post, DJ will play Mike (the weakside inside LB).
by Chiefs4Life on Jun 2, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Positions seem to change day to day
But based on this post, it seemed to line up this way…
Strong/Left/TE ………..Weak/Right/Non-TE
LOLB …… LILB …… RILB …… ROLB
SAM ……. TED ……. MIKE ……. WILL
Tamba ….. Zach ….. Derrick ….. Vrabel
I agree that different scenarios have been discussed in the past. So feel free to suggest corrections from this. Just thought I’d clarify both the terms and positions as I currently understand them. Thanks.
by sunny D on Jun 2, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see any possible way Hali plays over the TE on a regular basis
The Chiefs aren’t likely to give their best pass-rusher large responsibilities for covering the TE.
by Dagda on Jun 2, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really hope...
that by the time the season starts, Hali will not be our best pass rusher.
But I still agree.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
by Jux on Jun 2, 2009 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points C4L
Haley does talk openly about moving to a 3-4. I just think with our personnel, we will only see a “pure” 5-0-5 arrangement by the front 3 at the snap about 50% of the time.
by sunny D on Jun 2, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not to mention under, over, around, through, etc.
Just paint little x’s on the field for their starting places. Say “go!” First one to the ball wins.
Actually, it sounds like Zach has high hopes that DJ will get this down and be able to stop “thinking” by the time the season starts and start playing instinctively again.
Everybody knows how talented and fast he is. If he gets this down where he’s not thinking, just rolling around and just having fun and he knows what to do, he’ll be a great player in this scheme.
by sunny D on Jun 2, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Studebaker
I really want this kid to get on the field. I’m biased but he always seems to get sacks wherever he’s played, even with limited snaps. I think he will make a great 3-4 pass rusher
by BucktheFroncos on Jun 2, 2009 11:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Shame McBride Won't Be A Starter
I’m big on McBride, both as a player and a person, nicest guy you’ll ever meet. Turk is down around 260, he’s stayed in KC all offseason to rehab his injury and has admitted he’s down to around there. I posted awhile back (with current roster as of February, long time since last post) that our front 3 should be Dorsey (le) Tank (nt) and drafted player (re), and our linebackers would be McBride, Williams, Johnson, and Hali with Johnston rotating to keep the outside backers fresh. Of course, all this has changed now, but yeh, I feel confident that Turk will do well as an outside ’backer. He got a couple late hits last year, but he was always in the back field on all the passing plays, just could never turn that corner or get close enough for a sack.
Also, in my former job, I got the pleasure of meeting McBride and other Chiefs in a one-on-one basis and (beating a dead horse, again, long time since last post) how Herm and that staff had no idea Michael Merritt is a pot head is beyond me. All you had to do was look at the guy or talk to him and it’d be painfully obvious within seconds. Any guy that wears a button down shirt and slippers and refers to himself as ‘the chestershire cat’ in the third person is definately on something.
by 8k1c6 on Jun 2, 2009 11:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You don't have to start....
to have a huge impact on games. Plus we are a long ways out from seeing exactly what Mcbride can do. I either see us finding a place for McBride to have an impact this year and keeping him, or possibly moving him in a trade next offseason. I agree though I was impressed last year before he got hurt, I think there is some pash rush ability there and I think he will see alot of field time outside of the base 3-4 looks.
by Zimmy on Jun 2, 2009 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think McBride will succeed as a LB
I remember one play against Denver where I think it was Eddie Royal he chased down the field and stripped the ball away. Fast as hell for a guy that big.
by Vince D on Jun 2, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
and that was when he weighed 285
I can’t wait to see him at 260.
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Jun 2, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have always maintained Merritt's selection didn't merit
I said it immediately after he was drafted. This is 1) an injured guy that 2) didn’t believe himself that he’d end up playing football (he was preparing to be a firefighter instead of a training camp). Everyone said, what’s there to lose, he’s the best blocking TE in the draft. What’s there to lose? The Chiefs threw away their draft choice because they were sloppy. That more than anything told me last season would be a waste. You can’t compete with teams if you prepare at 3/4 of the breadth and depth of your opponents. This is what Herm’s teams did. They didn’t prepare well enough for the draft, and they always came out of camp with too many problems (they spotted the AFC West a 2-game lead each year).
by Dagda on Jun 2, 2009 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will and Sam are weak and strong, respectively
The ‘article’ suggests that the WILL is a strong-side backer. It is not. The genesis of the positional names comes from their orientation: Will for Weak, Sam for Strong.
by Dagda on Jun 2, 2009 3:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I thought that was off when i read it.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
by Jux on Jun 2, 2009 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
14 linebackers…let’s hope there’s some quality to be found amidst the quantity.
As for the poll, I’m uncertain McBride has the stuff to move to a standup linebacker spot. He could come in for four-man fronts on occasion, but that’s all I see for him right now. I didn’t think he was very good at Tennessee, and while I’m really, really sick and tired of the “does _ fit the new scheme?” and “is ____ a Pioli type of player?” talk, I don’t think McBride fits anywhere in this defense.
KC has a lot of linebackers, and if four of them can be found who can form a baseline for the future of the defense, that’s great. I’m guessing KC ends up with no pass rush and ends up going after Kindle or someone like that next April.
by burntorangehorn on Jun 2, 2009 4:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
for some
a lack of a decent linebacking corps is their el guapo
oh baby, what a pants design!
by zubaz pants revival on Jun 2, 2009 4:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post. Rec'd.
Definitely one of the more interesting off season subjects. I am fascinated by who fits and where in the new D.
by TheQ on Jun 2, 2009 7:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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