T-Pen Vs. Cassel
by Chiefsfan2012 on Jun 17, 2009 6:19 PM CDT
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I really think Tyler Thigpen is the best QB on the roster. Consider this: Thigpen had to step into an incredibly difficult situation last year (we all know the story) and truly flourished. No, he did not put up incredible numbers, but he did put up very, very good numbers, without a top offense. All this happened as Matt Cassel put up slightly better numbers with all the targets in the world to throw to and a better offensive line and overall organization. How can you tell me that Thigpen is not as good as Cassel? Put Thigpin in the Patriots offense last year and I bet he would have lit it up.
The thing that really bothers me about this whole situation is that we traded away our best target in Tony G, and are putting an immobile quarterback into the offense. Even with Tony G, T-Pin still had to scramble his butt off (pretty effectively), but now Tony's gone, which will put Bowe in constant double coverage, leaving no targets for Cassel to throw to, and Cassel, without an effective scrambling ability, wont be able to pick up yards and TD's on the ground himself, like Thigpen can.
I feel that Thigpen would be more effective this year.
Any thoughts?
I really respect this platform and have appreciated your posts over the last few months. I have been a Chiefs fan since I was three and have been one to this day (I am now nineteen...I guess it hasn't been quite as long as some). I am new to Arrowhead Pride and subsequently, this is my first post...
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Completion percentage tells it all
63.4% (Cassel) vs. 54.8% (Thigpen). The quarterback’s job is to throw the ball and I’m going to take the most accurate one.
Cassel averaged 17 yards rushing per game, while Thigpen topped him by only ten yards per game. If we’re getting into a position where we need our QB to run the ball a lot, it’s probably not the best thing.
(Also…easy mistake but it’s Thigpen with an E)
Those paltry numbers put both QBs into the top 5 (6?) among all QBs.
One of the reasons that Cassel made SO much sense is his ability to move around. Thigpen brings something more as a scrambler, but not as much as folks seem to think. I think Cassel scored a few TDs from 5+ yards out, pulling the ball down and motoring up the middle.
Sorry, but there's no question
Thigpen did an admiral job stepping in, but Cassel is the guy.
Cassel has all the tools of a classic NFL QB, he was Pioli’s guy in NE, and they traded a 2nd round pick for him.
Not to mention, he’s getting top, Franchise QB money.
I like Thigpen, it was fun to see him scrap last year… but he’s the #2 QB on this roster, no doubt about it.
Cassel has the intangibles
Guys like Pollard, Albert, the HC have all mentioned that Cassel has a leadership presence both on the field and in the weight room. “Its hard to outwork this guy,” Haley has said. He’s bugging the coaches, sticking around after practice working on timing with his receivers… He’s doing all the right things a leader should do. I believe Thigpen lacks in these qualities.
Cassel also performed as a top 5 QB towards the end of last season, often showing off Brady-esque footwork in the pocket. And to say he’s not very mobile is a farce. He can extend the play just fine if he needs to, but his job is to stay in the pocket and make throws. And just as primetime put it, its the completion % that tells it all. Couple that with his top 10 passer rating last season (top 11 in completion %), and you’ve got yourself a starter.
To put it into perspective, Thigpen was 27th in passer rating and 30th in completion %.
I could get more sacks with my sack
I think that leadership aspect definitely opened Thigpen's eyes.
It wouldn’t be remarkable that Cassel was doing the things he was doing, except that Thigpen, apparently, was not. I don’t think Thigpen had any idea all the things that Cassel would immediately start doing OFF the field.
For all we know, however, Thigpen STILL might win it ON the field. But it definitely sounds like there was some slack in the line that he didn’t even know about, until Cassel stepped into the harness. The latest interview with Thiggy also sounded like Cassel’s getting the #1s snaps at Thiggy’s expense. It’s not clear that Thigpen is stepping up as a leader the way Cassel is, or if he ever will. Now that Cassel’s done it, it might still be tough for Thigpen to start acting that way. This offseason is his first real taste of preparations Tom Brady style. I’m not sure if he overlapped Trent Green’s tenure or not. Green was similar in terms of meticulousness.
We’ll see how the two compare. One thing Cassel never lost was confidence in his receivers. I saw too many instances where the receiver didn’t step up for Thigpen, or just flat dropped the pass, to where it was tough for him to look their way. I know there’d be a twitch of hesitation from ME when it came to throwing Webb’s way or even Bowe’s way. I discounted his Tony G. tunnel-vision accordingly.
What do you all think about Cassel’s contract sitch? In my best of worlds, I’d probably want my highest paid guy to wait until the dust settled on the team-building project. I can easily imagine Cassel’s deal being contingent on what the team needs are. That’s another thing a team leader does. One thing for sure (ok, in MY mind) is he won’t be holding-out in training camp, deal or no deal.
He learned it from one of the best.
He has been watching Bradt for all those years and now he is doing those same things.
Thigpin is a backup at best!
I don’t like thigpen at starting QB. One of the reasons that Tony had a huge catch total last year was because Thiggy does not have the arm or vision to pass to the WR’s, & could only find Tony. On the deep ball it seems like EVERY time he under throws his receiver, & they have to comeback to make a great catch. I think Thiggy played well last year because my expectations were so low?
I think Thiggy threw to play keep-away.
If it’s over the DB is the main thing. But I know what you mean. That’s a big part of why Cassel has the early lead. He threw some nice pinpoint passes down the field last season. Thigpen might be a better red zone QB.
I wanted to Vote but None of them Deserves to start
One will win the starting spot and then he will have Deserved it.
Competition :)
Nice Post
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
+1
However, I did vote…for Brodie lol. Of course, he lost his position to injury so if he comes back he should be number one. LMAO!!!
This is a good bunch we have to work with here, but truthfully, Cassel has had several years to back up one of the best ever and learn a lot from him. I think it showed last year. Reality is Thiggy needs a couple more years before he would in my eyes be on the same development level with Cassel. But I"m going to take Haley at his word and say there are no number ones at this point, nor do there deserve to be yet. Let the best man win!
I don’t think Thigpen’s going to get a fair shake at all, and I really think he should start camp as the starting QB, but I’m thinking Cassel is likely to start the season.
by burntorangehorn on Jun 17, 2009 7:03 PM CDT reply actions
anyone that voted brodie
probably supports Ralph Nader in every election, and is hoping the Cubs will win the World Series.
They probably also bet against Rocky everytime they watch the movies.
HEY!
Rocky doesn’t win EVERY time. He spilt a series with Apollo Creed and Clubber Lang and he lost to Mason “The Line” Dixon. I made my money back.
by thejesuslizard on Jun 17, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmmm....
Athleticism? Thigpen
Arm strength? Croyle
Decision making, Leadership, Presence, everything else important? Cassel
Please don't even try to bring Brodie Croyle into the equation
You can go ahead and add athleticism to Cassel..Watch this last season’s highlights on youtube and come back here and let us know about Cassel’s athleticism..The guy can scramble very well..Very athletic..
I think we can be certain that either Cassel or Thigpen can be the QB we need..I’m just happy we have two good prospects who have the tools to start..If Cassel goes down, I know Thigpen can lead this team
by CALIFAN1986 on Jun 18, 2009 1:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Thigpen
is as athletic as anyone on the offense. Scrambling is one thing, but making plays with pure athleticism is different. I didn’t bring Brodie in to this equation, he was on the poll. For that matter, the roster, too. Croyle can launch the ball a mile and as many people have said before, has all the talent in the world. Durability is his problem.
Thank You
Im tired of people dogging Brodie like he sucks…..his body never gave him a fair shot. I bet he still has more experience under center then Cassel and Thigpen combined.
"You can live for Nothing or die for Something, it's your call" - John Rambo
I'll take a QB that can stay on the field any day
Brodie may have the stronger arm but if he can’t stay on the field what does it matter. If Brodie really wanted to be an NFL QB he would of hired someone a long time ago to solve his durability problem.
Herm is gone things are better with that one move!!
by bringbacktheglory on Jun 18, 2009 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions
And if durability problem couldn't be solved.
Then he is worthless.
Brodie does suck, show me ANYTHING he has done in the NFL to prove that he doesn’t. You can’t claim that someone is good because of their potential.
Someone could literally have a cannon homing device attached to his torso and still be a crappy qb if they can’t stay in the game.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
I've come to look at it like this
#1 priority for the new regime was to change the losing culture that had developed. Hard as he tried, Thiggy was part of that team that lost a lot. That, I think in the eyes of the coaches was very important.
I look at it like this. These guys are being paid a lot of money to make these calls. They know WAY more about football than I probably ever will. If they think Cassel is a better QB right now he probably is. Sure, coaches are wrong all the time. Cassel could turn out to be a total bust and Thigpen could blossom and turn into the QB we have been looking for. I think Haley knows that and THAT is why he told Thigpen not to just throw in the towel
There are a ton of reasons for Thigpen to keep working hard and trying to improve. He is an injury away from taking over the job. He is also constantly auditioning for other teams. By having a good attitude, working hard and improving he increases his chances of getting another shot.
Doesn’t it feel nice to have a back up with some talent, some wheels and with the right attitude instead of some ass moaning about how he should be the starter?
Paddy
I loved watching Tyler, but Matt is the starter.
What scares me is if Brodie gets off the bike and appears healthy he will move into #2. I think he fits the style that Haley is going after.
Why does that scare you?
He is not gonna get injured every freaking play…although his past says different. He has a rocket arm and always reminded me of Brett Favre. He wasnt scared to take a chance down the field by throwing a deep bomb. Brodie is a way better QB than Thigpen….just not as durable….and yes that is very important for a QB.
"You can live for Nothing or die for Something, it's your call" - John Rambo
What are you basing that on?
Potential? Throwing the deep ball?
Brokie hasn’t done anything in the league. Thigpen hasn’t done a whole lot more in terms of wins but his stats and mobility really make up for it. I think the Cassel v thigpen debate is a good one, but don’t kid about Brokie. Until he can stay on the field he isn’t a better QB than anyone.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
Also
I never heard any reports of any other coaches calling the Chiefs about Tyler Thigpen. That isn’t to say those calls didn’t happen but it is curous. There are teams out there with major QB issues.
It is telling that McDaniels, stupid as the move was considering he already had a QB, went after Cassel is well. And I am sure there were plenty of other calls to the Pats for him.
Paddy
This is a really tired discussion...
Thiggy was fun to watch and he really helped keep last season interesting (even though we still sucked) but, there is no way, I repeat, NO WAY he will win the starting job over Matt Cassel.
This has nothing to do with my opinion of Thigpen because I think he will be a very good QB in this league SOMEDAY. Right now is not his time. This is Matt Cassels (well deserved) time to shine and I do not think Thiggy has the tools to take that from him at this point.
Agreed
Thigpen will find this time very busy.
Learning all those things that Brodie and Huard and Herm and Carl never knew.
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 18, 2009 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions
I have
watched all the 08 NE games and I am in the process of re-watching them and recording them.
Here are some thoughts.
Cassel looked good most of the time but there were some pretty ugly moments.
NE offensive line looked bad at times.
NE defense looked really bad at times.
I wouldn’t want Randy Moss on my team.
Wes Welker is a one heck of a football player.
As to who deserves to be the #1 QB, well in my opinion its should be the guy that proves he is the best for the team, but I also feel that when you pay a guy the kind of money that Cassel is going to end up with then chances are pretty high he will be the starter.
Watching
the games, I came to the conclusion he is a lackadaisical receiver.
It seems like he will not make any extra effort to make the catch.
Some long balls that were on the money he either let go through his hands or would allow the defender to knock them out after they were in hands.
Yeah, I can see that.
Didn’t he more or less admit to playing like that while in Oakland?
by thejesuslizard on Jun 18, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Not sure
If that was said or not.
Maybe he played great for Brady, I really never watched NE before so maybe he played this way just last season.
I bought Game Rewind to check out Cassel and see what he was like.
Moss had a couple bad games, and was up-front about it afterwards.
He’s deceptive to watch because of his height and long strides. Half the time you wouldn’t know he’s runnin’ hard, except nobody’s catchin’ ‘im. I think he’s made the transition to solid team player, but if the team struggles, he will lose focus, most likely.
Did you notice...
That Cassel threw out of the shotgun about every play. I noticed that watching NFL Network games of last year. I was thinking about everyone saying Thigpen couldnt work under center…well I hope Cassel gets used to it quick cause he played a lot like Thigpen. Cassel also held on the ball way too long and went down for sacks.
Not downing Cassel…just pointing out that he has flaws just like Thigpen.
"You can live for Nothing or die for Something, it's your call" - John Rambo
That's what I've been saying, usually when people diss Thigpen because of the shotgun.
Most, and I’m one, think Cassel’s decisions got much better as the season progressed. His O-Line had more good moments later in the season, too. Both NE and KC were tough offenses to do anything BUT shotgun with. It takes away from some of the quick-hitting run plays, but it gives the QB a better chance of seeing who’s coming free to kill him THIS down.
Thigpen was much better at that than Croyle and Huard!
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on Jun 18, 2009 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
The dolphins game
made me so excited for Cassel. That guy has something speacial. I just hope he can hone it in and improve all around.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
Trust Me Man
This is a Quagmire….
"There are two armpits in America. Oakland and New Jersey."- Warren Sapp
What the hell would this have looked like with Gannon vs Bono/Grbac?
Can’t remember which probably a self healing mind block. 400 posts for/against IMO.
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
bf
regarding Thigpen’s accuracy…go back & look at the Jets’ game. Particularly at the TD passes to Gonzo & Bradley. On each, Thigpen squeezed the ball into a 2’ window (maybe smaller on Bradley’s). Yeah, he can throw the ball. However, the job’s gotta be Cassel’s ’til he loses it.
A couple accurate passes doesn't make you an accurate passer.
His completion % was still way to low. I’ve said this before, but hey what’s one more time. Thigpen never really showed the ability to read a defense and hit a receiver in their route. He would scramble around and then either force it in to TG or throw it up in the air for Bowe to go get. It was fun to watch at times and at least moved the ball some, but you have to do more then that if you want to be the franchixe QB. He’s a perfect #2 QB.
Ten sacks in a season! For crying out loud that's what I used to average per game using DT in Tecmo Bowl!
SERIOUSLY,
Stop beating it to your spank bank pic of Tyler freakin Thigpen, there isnt really a debate here, even TT knows this. My god where is Sexassasin with his great post with beautiful women. This is seriously garbage, and a garbage post.
One thing you Chiefs fans havent thought about is what your going to think if Cassell struggles in his debut. He no longer has a pro bowl offensive line and randy moss and wes welker to throw the ball to. The things he had in N.E.. Lets also not forget that that team went 18-0 the year before not to shabby either, Thigpen posted beeter overall production numbers on a much worse team.
I was going to look up links,
But someone who creates an account to post on another blog isn’t worth that time.
So quite simply, trust me. We have thought about it.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
Heh. You'd think J Ray would find out what's been said
before making claims about what we haven’t thought about. The “… pro bowl offensive line…” remark made me chuckle. I think he got all his NWE information from Mike Martz’s 2-minute sound bite on NFLN.
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