The 2009 Chiefs; Life After Death?
by Patrick Allen on May 8, 2009 1:57 PM CDT
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PrintThis post started out as a comment about Tyler Thigpen and how he got worse as games went on last year. I was sick of hearing it and I was sick of hearing everyone talk about how the bottom line between Cassel and Thiggy was that Cassel won games and Thiggy did not. I don’t believe that is the bottom line. I think Cassel PLAYED better than Thigpen, but Thigpen, by no stretch played poorly. I think Cassel is a better QB. I was just trying to argue that Thigpen wasn’t really responsible for much of our pain and loss last year. In fact, without him things could have been really, really REALLY bad. Just go back and watch the Tenn. And Carolina games if you don’t believe me. Please note that this post is not an endorsement of Thiggy over Cassel. In this post I try to explain that the reason for almost all of our losses last year was bad defense and why I think we are about to turn it around.
Thiggy may have failed to make some 2nd half adjustments but our defense sucked ass in the 2nd half. The coaches weren't making adjustments either. I am not saying Thiggy is free from blame but I am saying he isn't the only reason we lost games.
He is one of the only reasons we were IN games. I'm sorry but we were a peewee offense before the Arrowspread.
Remember during the Charger game when Thiggy lead us on a 4th quarter drive and gave us the lead? And then our D screwed it up and D Bowe dropped the ball?Then didn't Thiggy complete a pass to get us back into field goal range where we still could have won the game? Yes our offense declined as the game went on but you simply can't prove that this was all Thiggy and didn't have something to do with the D making adjustments that our coaches didn't have an answer to.
Thigpen scored us enough points to WIN football games. FFS we gave up 100 more points last year than we did in 2007.
Look at it like this:
2007 the Chiefs Offense scored 226
2008 the Chiefs Offense scored 291.
So even with the crazy ass start to the season with a billion QB's, Thiggy IMPROVED our offense. In face, had he played the entire season like he did from the Jets game on we would have scored well over 300 points.
It wouldn't have mattered though.
Chiefs 2007 D, points allowed: 335
In 2008? 440 points allowed.
Jesus!!
So every time you want to whine about how Cassel won 11 games and Thiggy won one, look and see that New England only game up 309. That still isn't great and Cassel had to lead them to over 400 points to make them playoff contenders, which is what makes his season so extraordinary.
The only teams to give up more points than the Chiefs?
The Lions the Doneys and the Rams.
The Lions gave up a ridiculous 516 points. 0-16.
And in Denver Jay Cutler had to freak out and throw for a billion yards and make the pro bowl JUST to get Denver to finish 8-8. You know what happened to the Rams and they scored FEWER points than the Chiefs.
Thiggy was essentially a rookie. He was remarkable. He had no, let me repeat, NO chance to win games with that defense. Amazingly, and you know this is true, we SHOULD have won the 2nd Charger game BECAUSE of Thigpen’s 4th quarter drive. We should have won that damn Jets game. We lost to Tampa Bay in OT when Thiggy went out and put up 27 points. The Dolphins game? Thiggy put up 31 and the D gives up 38.
Thigpen did enough to win us 6 or 7 games in what was basically a rookie season with a terrible coach. Do you think Ryan and Flaco would have been worth a damn if their teams gave up 440 points?
This is why I am so impressed with what Pioli has done this off-season. I have been worried that the Chiefs have not added enough pieces on offense. I still would like them to add another receiver but consider what we have just learned.
I figure Pioli looks at it like this. He HAS to do something about the D. He has to. Period. If he can knock 100 points off our allowed total, down to 330 or 340 or so and add, say 74 to 100 to the offense, he has a team that can win some games. Also, if he improves the defensive play he gives his offense more chances to score points. He secures himself a QB who he knows can play. Now he has 2 good QB’s for his offense. One he knows can put up about 300 points on a terrible team and another he knows can put up over 400 points on a great team. He brings in a coach that is all offense! There is no reason the Chiefs, no longer under Herm, with Chan Gaily and Todd Haley can’t score at least 350 points. Then Pioli spends most of his time upgrading the D. Bringing in Vets. Focusing on stopping the run. Changing the mindset.
When it boils down to it, football is simple. Score more points then you give up and you will win. I think that is where Pioli is starting with this team. If he can add 100 points of offense and subtract 100 points from the defense…he may be looking at a winning record.
Think of it like this. If we can get the D to give up 300 or so points this year instead of 400…Cassel won’t have to freak out and play like Drew Brees or Jay Cutler. He’ll just have to play a little better than Thiggy did last year.
I am a firm believer that in pro sports the line between good teams and bad teams is pretty thin.
Let’s hope Pioli and the Chiefs are about to cross that line.
P.S. I got the idea for the post title from the Arrowhead Addict T Shirt "Thiggy Smalls, Life After Death." One of the funniest things I have ever seen. If we use him at all in the offense next year I am buying one.
via skreened.com
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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This post made me smile. :)
rec’d
I'm currently reading "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" and it feels like we got ourselves a McMurphy on our hands....wheelin' and dealin'
So we could have gone from 2-14 to 0-16? Yeah, I could see that
I’ll credit Huard for 1 game and Thigpen for 1 game.
And no one is blaming Thigpen for all the loses. That would be absurd. What people are pointing out is that there are better QB’s than Thigpen, just like thsoe of us who supported Grbac came to realize he wasn’t the end-all be-all.
There are better options and I think we’ll see if the better option we acquired wins the pre-season spot. Odds anyone?
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
A lot of people say
Thigpen won 2 games. Cassel won 11 games.
As if either of them did it by themselves.
Anyway, the post isn;t about that. I said at the beginnign I agree Cassel is a better option. I just don’t think he’’d have done too much better than Thigpen. Not with that defense.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on May 8, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Well I can see your point...but, NE didn't have to change the Offense for Cassell either.
I can only compare Huard to Thigpen since they both played behind the same line. Do I think Huard could have won more games….yeah, but not much. Maybe a couple more and we would have gone 4-12. Again, speculating.
But keep in mind as well that had we had Cassell (or even Huard) we wouldn’t have played the same formation, so it’s hard to say HOW MANY MORE games to be precise.
Since Huard played 1/3 of the games and had 1 win, than the math would be 4 wins. But again, there’s a lot of factors in that as well.
Do I think the better QB will be the starter this year? Yeah. Will it be fair? Yeah (since Pioli didn’t commit to a large contract with Cassell).
Do I think the O will change back from a spread? Yes. And I don’t think Thigpen is comfortable with that. Again, we’ll just have to see and let the better QB win.
I’ll be curious to see the results from River Falls.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
Oh, one more thing
I’m not saying that Thigpen shouldn’t be a part of this team in ’09. So no one should read into thinking we should release him.
Now, if someone wanted to trade him (since he’s at his highest value), post playing most of last season, than if Pioli can wing a deal, than go for it. Course, I think that about any player. Regardless.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
The only thing I disagree with
is your saying “But keep in mind as well that had we had Cassell (or even Huard) we wouldn’t have played the same formation, so it’s hard to say HOW MANY MORE games to be precise.”
Pocket passing was not working for ANY of our QB’s. Nor Croyle, not Huard and not Thiggy. I don’t think Cassel would have survived back there.
The Chiefs came in trying to run the O how Herm wanted it. Pocket passer and power running game. We had neither. We had to make an adjustment no matter who was back there. Once we did we scored and it opened up for the running game.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on May 8, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually...
If you go back and look at the Pats last year, they did adjust their offense as the year went on to more of a spread formation. As the season progressed, Cassel was in the shotgun a lot more than he was in a pro-set style offense. In both of the games where he put up over 400 yards, the Pats were playing a lot of spread formations. Not exclusive like the Chiefs but still, more than usual.
by Chiefsfan1970 on May 8, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Wrong
didnt N.E go to the gun for awhile to help cassel out? I dont think Cassel could have done any better here at K.C than Bones did………. for instance he was sacked 49 time in N.E…………..what would that have been in K.C 100?
Imo their is no way you can compare the QB’s by wins or stats unless they played on the same team! Cassel came in on a team that has ruled the last decade, and went 18-0 the yr before!
Tyler came in as a 3rd string QB on a team that won 4 games the yr before, and had no o-line or running game, so it was all on him to win!!
Everyone acts like if Tyler was still our starting QB we would still have to run the spread……..do you guys think that he cant learn to play from under center? How old is Cassel 26? Tyler is like 24 in 2 yrs he would have been the better QB, but now he will never have the chance to prove it!
I hope Cassel does a good job, but im pullin for Tyler to win the starting role!
Imo their is no way you can compare the QB’s by wins or stats unless they played on the same team!
Exactly, that’s why comparing Thigpen and Huard is more accurate, which is what I did.
..do you guys think that he cant learn to play from under center?
No, unless he proves me wrong in the offseason and does it in the pre-season games.
Tyler is like 24 in 2 yrs he would have been the better QB, but now he will never have the chance to prove it!
Actually he has a great chance, although I don’t agree about him being a starter (or more precisely a QBOTF). Cassell hasn’t signed a long term contract. That tells me that Thigpen has as much as chance to win the starting spot as anyone else. Haley commented on the QB situation in particular. When this was brought up he said that when he was in AZ., the better QB played (Warner). He won the spot.
The same will happen here. IF Thigpen wins it outright, I’ll tip my hat. I don’t think he can or will…but we’ll see in a few months.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
QB comparison
You cant compare QBs just by playing them on the same team. Each QB has their own strength, and fit under a different system.
by Red and Gold on May 12, 2009 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, screw the stats...it's bad enough people compare QB's between teams
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
This is an odd comment
On the defensive side of the ball we lambaste Herm and Gunther for trying to force their players into a scheme that doesn’t fit. Then when we switch a scheme to fit the players we have on offense we still criticize?! I’m sorry but that is ridiculous. Does it really matter what scheme you are using to play offense as long as you are scoring points? Prior to the Arrowspread as Patrick Allen indicated our offense was terrible. After we implemented the Arrowspread our offense improved substantially.
For our team to have won (consistently) last year with our defense we would have had to been ranked ~2nd in ppg. Using the win column to compare QB’s is horribly superficial, because even being extremely generous they make up between 1/4 and 1/3 of a team. Like Casey Printers said “You can’t make chicken salad from chicken sh*t.”
by Scaryclouds on May 10, 2009 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
And to those who say that Thigpen can’t play under center? How do you know? Because he sucked in the Atlantra game? His real start? From what I understand he never played under center. He ran the spread in college. There is no way you can judge him as a regular pro set QB if you have one game of evidence. Vince Lombardi’s ghost wouldn’t know.
Am I saying Thiggy can do it? No. I have no idea. But neither does anyone else.
I think Cassel will be a better QB at this point because when I saw him play he seemed to be more accurate than Thigpen. He seemed to make better choices with the football and I seemed to me he read the field better and did not panic. I also think he improved faster than Thigpen, which is a good sign.
I still feel,however, that Thigpen, with an even DECENT defense, would have won at least 5 games last year.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on May 11, 2009 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions
And to those who say that Thigpen can’t play under center? How do you know? Because he sucked in the Atlantra game? His real start? From what I understand he never played under center.
I’ll argue that the coaching staff knew what he could and couldn’t do after the game as well as during the practice’s. We can’t base it on one game, but the coaching staff isn’t basing it on one game either.
Now I know, I know the argument. Could-a, should-a, would-a…we don’t know and I’m tired of speculating on how good Thigpen WAS,IS and EVER WILL BE, because unless he wins the starting spot, none of his fans will know.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
Does it really matter what scheme you are using to play offense as long as you are scoring points?
What points? You mean all the ones we scored in the second half? Yes, the scheme matters, because the one we used last year was horrible.
After we implemented the Arrowspread our offense improved substantially.
Prove it. The Offensive numbers STILL showed we were near the bottom in the league. That’s not an improvement, which reflected on the wins as well.
Using the win column to compare QB’s is horribly superficial,
I’ll use the “W” column over any other column. After all it’s the one that counts with the Lombardi.
People wanted an accurate assessment and argued comparing Cassell to Thigpen wasn’t fair/accurate, fine. People then compare Thigpen to Huard on the same team/same year, that’s not fair either to his fans either.
Thigpen “as starter material” fans need to get a grip. You just refuse to see that the kid is/was and has been backup material. You don’t like any comparisions that actually don’t show him in a positive light…so be it. I know where your coming from. I was a Grbac fan as well and didn’t listen. If he wins the spot, he wins it…but it won’t happen and he’ll be riding the bench. Just a gut feeling onj my part, but I could be wrong.
Like Casey Printers said "You can’t make chicken salad from chicken sh*t."
“And I can take 22 guys off the street to win two games”……I think Haley meant the QB was one of the 22 too :)
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
I’ll argue that the coaching staff knew what he could and couldn’t do after the game as well as during the practice’s. We can’t base it on one game, but the coaching staff isn’t basing it on one game either.
Herm? I know you must mean Chan. I don’t think Herm knew we had an offense. What I think happened was they noticed NONE of the QB’s could play under center because they were spending too much time on their backs. Their entire offensive game plan for the season was flushed down the crapper along with Croyle’s career.
They decided to go with Thigpen for the Atlanta game because he came in previously when Huard was hurt and actually scored a touchdown. Something we were having trouble doing. We all know how that worked out. Thigpen looked terrible.
Huard came in an picked apart a terrible Denver defense but then the Carolina and Titan games showed just how terrible our blocking was. It is why Croyle was in the hospital wing. Then Huard got hurt, or begged Herm not to let him get killed and they HAD to use Thiggy. No other options.
Chan noticed that in the beginning of the season, when Thigpen came in for Huard or for mop up time, that he seemed very comfortable playing out of the shotgun. This makes sense for a 3rd string guy who got no snaps in preseason due to his depth chart position and his history with the spread. Maybe Thigpen wouldn’t have been as good under center but going to the spread had just as much to do with our teams blocking weakness as it did with playing to Thigpen’s strengths. Which is smart.
Prove it. The Offensive numbers STILL showed we were near the bottom in the league. That’s not an improvement, which reflected on the wins as well.
Here is your proof;
Chiefs points from the Pro Set Offense:
10
8
14
33
0
10
Pitiful. The 33 came against Denver and was mainly because LJ freaked out and remembered how to play running back for an afternoon.
Points scored in the first 6 games of the Arrowspread?
24
27
19
20
31
20
I would say that is a marked improvement.
To recap;
6 Weeks of Proset = 75 points
6 Weeks of Arrowspread: = 141 points.
So yes. The Arrowspread nearly DOUBLED our offense. Thosnumbers also held up the rest of the year with the exception of the Cinci game where everyone was preparing for vacation.
Or how about a projection;
Based on 6 games playing the proset, forecast over a 16 game season the Chiefs would have scored 200 points ALL YEAR and averaged 12.5 points per game.
The Arrowspread, in its 10 games averaged 21.6 points per game. Over the course of 16 games it would have averaged to around 345.6 points per game. 345-point average? I think that would improve our offensive numbers a little bit.
What about the defense? Part of the argument is that Thigpen would have won more games if not for our God-Awful defense. Did they give Thigpen a decent effort?
In the 6 Pro Set games our D gave up 165 points! That is 27.5 points per game. Project those numbers over a 16 game season? Guess how many points that is? 440.
Guess how many points the Chiefs defense gave up through 16 games last year? 440 points! I was amazed when I found this out. The defense, whether we were playing in the Pro-Set or the Arrowspread was going to be terrible. Their fate was sealed after 6 games. They were remarkably consistent. They also did not get any better.
Thus Thigpen never had a chance. The offense would have had to average 28 points a game to win most of their contests. 28 points a game? That would be good for 448 points over 16 games. That would have been the #1 offense in the NF last year, putting Thigpen in the same ranks as Kurt Warner, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers and Eli Manning to name a few. Thigpen would have had to put up numbers similar to these guys to get the job done.
The Chiefs were going to give up 440 points last year no matter what happened. Thigpen did a spectacular job giving us a chance to win those games. Cassel put up 410 points with the NE offense. Can he do that here? Let’s hope so. If not, our defense better improve dramatically and quickly or, like Thigpen found out, it won’t matter who is playing QB or what formation they are in.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on May 11, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
What I think happened was they noticed NONE of the QB’s could play under center because they were spending too much time on their backs. Their entire offensive game plan for the season was flushed down the crapper along with Croyle’s career….
…They decided to go with Thigpen for the Atlanta game because he came in previously when Huard was hurt and actually scored a touchdown. Something we were having trouble doing. We all know how that worked out. Thigpen looked terrible.
Maybe Thigpen wouldn’t have been as good under center but going to the spread had just as much to do with our teams blocking weakness as it did with playing to Thigpen’s strengths.
All that’s pure speculation and innuendo and unless you were on the staff, you don’t know for sure.
6 Weeks of Proset = 75 points
6 Weeks of Arrowspread: = 141 points.
So yes. The Arrowspread nearly DOUBLED our offense.
And resulted in the same W/L record…pitiful either way you look at it.
Thus Thigpen never had a chance.
He had a chance and he continues to have one in the offseason. It’s OK to blame the rest of the team but the fact remains that if he was so “fantastic” and “a game saver” then we wouldn’t have gotten Cassell at $14Mil. to compete for the spot. We would have taken a late round backup.
The fact remains he didn’t put games on his shoulders to try to win them, ergo he’s not a QBOTF, nor did I see him as being a standout last season. To me, he was a fill-in and continues to be so until proven otherwise. I have to go with comments made by the coaching staff…22 guys and he was 1 of them.
We can go on and on about Thigpen and not change each others mind. Honestly, come season start, he won’t matter (unless he starts or Cassell gets hurt and starts, or actually gets the 3rd string position which is possible but unlikely) so I’m done talking about him. Until he actually put’s "W"’s in the column and shows he’s a QBOTF and can carry a football team and lead the franchise to SB’s, he’s just…..ordinary and a respectable backup. No more, no less.
Frankly, I view him in the same range as another backup we had….Vlasic, aka “The Pickle”. Nothing outstanding, a decent backup.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
If the defense gives up 27.5 points a game....
you just simply cannot blame the win loss record on the QB.
The problem was the defense, plain and simple.
Yes, Thiggy is a project. No, Bones move from 4th string to starter and become a thing of grace and beauty. No, Bones did not show himself to be particualrly adept at reading his check down progressions and looking off defenders. Yes, Bones used TG as a complete crutch. But, It was Bones’ mobility in the pocket, and ability to buy himself time that allowed the offense to put points on the board.
Bones’ legs made the Chiefs competative. Yes, they lost a lot of games in the 4th quarter, but at least they were in the game in the 4th quarter. With how bad the defense was it’s a freeking miracle to even be in the game.
Give Bones this year (as a real back-up QB that actually gets snaps in the pro-set) and I think a lot of people are going to be supprized at what he becomes. He didn’t panic under pressure (a la Tony Romo), and his mobility was a drive extended (reminded me of a young Randell Cunningham). Croyle, Huard, and Ingle Martin got played at QB for the Chiefs last season. Thigpen PLAYED QB for the Chiefs last season.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on May 11, 2009 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions
you just simply cannot blame the win loss record on the QB.
See, this is EXACTLY what I’m talking about. Some on here actually don’t take the time to READ posts. Who said it’s all the QB’s fault? NOONE.
Some people just cannot read a comment without totally blowing it out of proportion. What’s next? You going to claim I called Thigpen a bum?
I’m done talking about a 2nd/3rd stringer. Right now he’s just as good as Huard because he’ll be palying just as much.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
and yes, I know Huard's riding the bench in SF
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
I read every word of the comments, kthx
I’ll use the "W" column over any other column. After all it’s the one that counts with the Lombardi.
People wanted an accurate assessment and argued comparing Cassell to Thigpen wasn’t fair/accurate, fine. People then compare Thigpen to Huard on the same team/same year, that’s not fair either to his fans either.
You have stated that you would use the “W” stat over any other statistic to evaluate Thigpen, because it’s the only one that counts.
That is my only point. You cannot judge a QB’s play based on the win/loss record. (Not specifically Bones, ANY QB). The team wins or loses games, not the QB.
There is no way to accurately compare Thigpen and Cassel from last year. I don’t claim that there is. I’m not calling for Thigpen to be the starter, or Cassel for that matter. I have my doubts about both of them. Thigpen hasn’t done well at reading progressins, and Cassel spent a lot of time laying on his back eating a football that he didn’t bother to throw away. They both threw some ugly balls, especially when they tried to go long.
The Pat’s team scooped up Cassel and made him look pretty good. (not in win/loss, in visually measured performance). On the other hand, Bones scooped up the Chiefs and managed to keep them in the games.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on May 12, 2009 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
on the D point
you don't have to win and you don't need to fight. Supertramp
by Steve_Chiefs on May 11, 2009 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm of the opinion 22 guys of the street wouldn't make it back on field after halftime.
Haley said it (or was reported) and I think he knows that it’s not true either.
In the NFL 22 guys of the street would win ZERO games.
Can we put that quote to bed NOW, please
you don't have to win and you don't need to fight. Supertramp
by Steve_Chiefs on May 11, 2009 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions
The Lions didn't have a camp or practives? .....
That was just 22 guys off the street? Hell, that explains a lot =P
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on May 11, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions
The point about 22 guys off the street wasn't to be taken literally
…if you actually read into it you understand that winning 2 friggin measley games should be a given.
Yes, 22 guys off the second string or from the practice squad, or from lesser known colleges brought in as scrubs, could’ve won 2 games.
2 games isn’t a big deal.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
There is a "=P" (smiley with a tognue sticking out giving a raspberry)
at the end of that post for a reason.
Steve said
In the NFL 22 guys of the street would win ZERO games
I thought: Gee, there was a team that managed to do just that last year. Maybe they sucked so bad because they were just 22 guys off the street.
Then I posted what I considered a smart ass comment as a joke, and put a =P on it so it would not be taken seriously.
I understood the point. The point is that the 22 guys off the street comment grew legs and needs to go away now. People are reading way too much into it, and it’s time to let it die. It was a snap arguement ment to illustrate how bad the team was last year, and to show that the players aren’t going to be allowed to use the fact that they played pro football for the Chiefs before Haley every got there as a leverage chip within his system.
Which makes the comment all the more smart ass because not only do I poke fun at the Lions (one of the few teams worse than us that I can actually make fun of), but I also bring the “22 guys” quote back instead of letting it die.
Remind me never to try to explain a joke / ironic statement / witty comment / pithy observation again.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on May 12, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
NFL Game Rewind and Thigpen
Just broke down and bought it. Still wish I could get better view of the field and not the angles chosen by the networks. But it’s a step in the right direction.
Anyway, as it relates to the current conversation, EVERY time McIntosh was asked to stop a speed-rusher, he whiffed. The right guard was pretty worthless, giving no help in the B-gap (and the A-gap was there for the MLB). But when it was McIntosh’s job to push his man out of the way or up the field, he usually dominated his man. In a blocking scheme in which McIntosh’s job is to seal from the inside out, with a blocking TE to blunt the outside speed rush, and Mike Goff at RG, the right side might already be fixed, with Colin Brown working his way into the rotation at RT next to the veteran Goff and with TE insurance on the edge.
Thiggy wasn’t perfect, but a big part of his problem was calling to protect him, instead of letting him play the regular offense without restriction. He was also hindered by some tight passes in Jeff Webb’s direction, where Webb didn’t meet him halfway. When the pass was thrown to keep it away from the defender and give the WR a shot at it, Webb didn’t come down with the ball. He kept looking for a flag, instead of flat bein’ better than the defender at chasing after a ball the QB gave him a better than 50-50 shot at, relative to the DB. Thiggy was also criticized for throwing in the vicinity of Asomugha, but Webb and Bowe were both there, and if they played with any chemistry, the 2-on-1 should’ve been in the receivers’ favor.
Anyhoo, it’s tough to tell just what Thiggy might be able to do in the regular offense, with no gimmickry to either mask o-line failures or (stupid) limit the QB’s responsibilities (which makes the QB’s job HARDER!). Protecting the QB by limiting his playbook is WHY (in large part) young QBs struggle early on. The D knows the o-coordinator’s trying to “protect the rookie from mistakes” so they pin their ears back and make his life miserable – and what people see is pretty much in agreement with the (bass-ackwards) theory that the inexperienced kid is going to struggle. Give him the whole playbook, ditch the gimmicks, and let him learn from his mistakes. If the team is fundamentally sound It wasn’t last year), and the kid is fundamentally a good player, he’ll get it.
Also, from NFL Rewind: LJ isn’t very good at reading holes. Pretty awesome when his plans coincide with exactly what happens on the field, but looks pretty poor at reading where the play should go based on what happens AFTER the snap. Could HURT people behind the right line, but isn’t going to make the most of what happens if things turn even a little bit “turtle.”
+1
but overall the donkey game, it just seemd like everyone was playng hard. That’s something the whole team didn’t do much of last season.
There's always next week,,, and when we run out of weeks, there's always next year!
I actually rewatched that game yesterday.
Also the Bucs and Raiders games.
They wer ethe only thing that kept me going last year.
In case anyone missed it you can watch archived games here (from woodman’s fanpost)
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
Originally from another post....lol...
I reposted it to remind people…You should do that again. Make a post giving credit to the original guy, I dont remember his SN right now…In the interest of surviving the off-season.
LJ and the Broncos defense for 1 win….
And Huard not throwing 3 INT’s. People forget that the large portion of games are lost with 3+ INT’s.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
Huard reminds me of Neil O'Donnell
A football man’s football man, with SOME of the tools. A liability in the long game, though. Totally underthrew Charles in a go route versus a LB. Charles had 2 steps on the guy. All Huard had to do was throw it over the LB’s head, and he couldn’t. Kinda bummed, because I always thought Huard was underrated.
You know it is a slow news day
when “what if” and “Croyle” is being thrown around and you can’t find the words “Kelly” “Naked” or “my bed” anywhere.
Paddy
Also
Look at the sacks allowed by NE and the sacks allowed by us:
NE: 48 sacks given up
KC: 37 sacks given up
I love how the “winning 11 games” thing also gets thrown around without this stat. Moss/Welker are better than Bowe/Gonzalez, yes. Thigpen is a little bit less afraid of putting his wheels on and running for the first down. To tie into your post: less sacks, more yards, with a couple of pretty good receivers last year. I think Cassel (starting from day 1) could’ve won us 5-6 last year, even with that defense.
However, you’ve got to get a little bit excited to see us improve the o-line (Goff), play out of the spread (Haley/Galey), have a more accurate QB, and make some much needed changes to the defense.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
I just hope
he wins us more than 5 or 6 games this year. I need at least nine wins. I can’t take it anymore.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on May 8, 2009 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions
i'm pretty sure you'll have to take it
because this turd won’t be polished to shine like that this year imo..i hope i’m wrong
Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day.
Harry S. Truman
I dont think
Cassel would have made it thru the season without getting hurt! No matter how you look at it N.E was a far better team than the Chiefs! Just about any QB in the league could have went to N.E and won 11 games! So saying he won 11 games mean nothing to me considering who he played for! Given the chance to play behind a better o-line and with better coaching………… Tyler with his ability to scramble would be a better QB, than Cassel! Thats just how i feel, and that is considering that Tyler can improve his deep ball and take snaps from under center!
Peewee offense
We ran a peewee offense and it was called the arrowspread, thiggy couldnt play without the spread and this eliminated are running game which is crucial to success in the NFL. Cassel deffinatly is alot better pure passer and i think thigpen still is a solid backup and can run the wildcat.
solid backup
How can you deem Thigpen a solid backup if he was only able to run a peewee offense and come into a game running the pro set and still suceed
by chief believer on May 8, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions
If cassel goes down
we can transition back to a spread offense until cassel came back. But theres a reason why the spread dosent work in the NFL, because i eliminates the run game. But i think we can run some more of the spread if cassel goes down.
lol
Peewee offense come on…………..we had a Peewee o-line, and Cassel would have been killed too! Cassel is not the second coming!!! We had no running game because of our o-line and L.J had nothing to prove after signing his long term contract! Besides that L.J is not a great running back, if you get to him in the back field he is average if not poor at running the ball!
You say Tyler cant play without the spead……….Lmao ……………i say he wouldnt need to play the spead offense with our new o-line! With the new G.M and coaches Tyler will be much improved and will challenge Cassel for the starting role! You also say a running game is crucial to success in the NFL …………….. I agree its nice to be able to pound the ball, but have you not been paying attention, we arent that type of offense now with T.Haley, our running backs will be lucky to get 25 carries a game now!
I dunno, CPT.Caveman
Looks like an initial-push kind of o-line they’re building. And where are the WRs to match Boldin-Fitz?
I don’t think either Cassel OR Thigpen stand out in practice as much as a big-armed kid like Croyle in a game of 2-hand touch. But they both have that extra something that says “Gamer” to me, when they’re in a tough situation, and BOTH of these guys deserve a fair shot at starting, on a team that’s BOUND to be more solid than last year’s…
Nothing I’ve seen puts Cassel in front of Thigpen in a fair competition. Can’t make a 1-to-1 correspondence between the situations they faced, but there ARE common themes. BOTH of these guys played out the string in a situation that felled their predecessors. BOTH scored a lot of points, threw for a lot of yards, and ran for a lot of yards in both broken plays and planned draws. BOTH are durable and have a good set of wheels.
by the way
I am new to this site been reading it a couple of times a day for months . Love the articles and the debate this place definately increases my knowledge on the team we all love and I am grateful to all
I agree about Thiggy but...
If you have ever watched peewee league football or mighty mites like they call it around here, they don’t run a spread offense. In fact, they rarely ever throw a pass.
I would hardly call the Arrowspread a peewee offense. We gave some decent defenses fits last year with the Arrowspread. We may not have won those games but, it was hard to stop. Thiggy did well enough to generate some support and thats about it. He kept the season interesting and made it bearable to watch. I am looking forward to seeing Matt Cassel in the red and gold. The Chiefs will be a better team with him at the helm.
I agree
I have never been this excited about a season in along time from the moment we got pioli to the singing of cassel . the draft was alitle bit of a let down, all hyped to see some magic but in the aftermath i am still optimistic for this season
by chief believer on May 8, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Let down
I felt the draft was a little anti climatic myself. But the more i think about the more im on board with it. I think we will all be pleasantly suprised with our first two picks. Im hoping that Jackson will be a beast! The other kid im excited about is that WR. That kid sure can fly. Hopefully we found ourselves a return man and maybe Engram will be able to mentor him into a decent slot guy.
Don't blame me, I voted for content of character.
We had an exciting draft last year
and finished 2-14.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on May 8, 2009 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
yes good draft poor results
but we knew it was going to be tough that many rookies starting and the injuries we sustained were a hard blow but we still have those guys and the ones this year should put us into an exciting position with the new leadership and staff
by chief believer on May 8, 2009 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions
my point was that peewee offenses and the arrowspread are both gimmick offense, which is very diffrent from the Pro style offense that is ran in the NFL. And i agree that we gace some D some fits but we were to unbalanced at running the ball to win the games, i know the D was terrible but i think to win you have to have a good running game, with exception to the cardinals last year.
running game is important
this takes us back to other posts in regards to who are running backs are going to be. is lj going to be here so on but if cassel goes down we go to the spread again running game gone. i just wish we had the caliber of a backup that gannon was
by chief believer on May 8, 2009 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions
They'd also be better...
… with Thigpen. Even a SMALL improvement in the o-line ratchets up his performance.
thanks
in my opinion thiggy has skills to play but definately needs so mentoring and it is hard to learn behind the likes of Huard and Brokie
Oh Good.
A chance to link a couple of my favorite things together.
1) Mocking of the church
2) Kevin Smith’s genius
3) George Carlin
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
+1 for listing the things I love the most.
You should see Kevin Smith’s Zack and Miri. I’ve never laughed so hard in my life.
by SupremeChief on May 9, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Zack and Miri
is great! She frosted me like a cake!
Don't blame me, I voted for content of character.
Her name' Bubbles
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on May 11, 2009 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Thiggy did a hell of a job last year
He made games fun to watch. My only real problem with Thiggy is that he isnt a very accurate passer. Alot of throws were one-hoppers or passes that went sailing over heads. I know given time he can improve but he wont be the starter. IMO there wont even be a TRUE QB compition in training-camp. I just dont see the Chiefs let alone any other team paying a back-up QB almost $15 million, even if it is for one year.
Zack Greinke for Cy Young!!!!!
Well the Cards
benched leinart for Warner. Not sure what Leinarts contract is but he was a top ten pick so i know hes getting paid. Not saying the situation is the same here and im not saying i want Cassel over thiggy or vice versa all I am saying is that Haley doesnt seem like the type who cares what a player is making. All he cares about is results and if Thiggy can produce those results then he will start.
Don't blame me, I voted for content of character.
I've seen McNabb struggle, too.
When the QB has no comfort zone, there’s a tendency to try to force the ball into coverage, because the internal alarm clock goes off, even when it shouldn’t. I think Thiggy’s W-L record is enough to give Cassel a clear edge, but I don’t think the o-line/WRs/coaches ever let Thigpen develop a real rhythm or any real confidence in his all-around game.
I feel it’s pretty likely that Cassel will start and that Thigpen will be a high-quality #2.
Haley might not care about the amount of money
a player is making but Im sure at some point in time Mr. Hunt will have a problem with it. I just cant see a scenario were we give up a 2nd round draft pick, pay the QB we traded for almost $15 million and he doesnt start. I would almost be dissapointed if Cassel doesnt start. We then would have traded a 2nd round draftpick for a back up QB and a 1 maybe 2 year starting LB. IMO a serious waste and a terrible trade by the “Don”.
Zack Greinke for Cy Young!!!!!
Life after Death
I think to compare Thiggy with Matt is so wrong. I think we all know it takes more than one guy to win. The new Chiefs will have to prove themselves and that includes the front office all the way down to the trainers.
Our new staff wanted a QB for their style of game and Matt seams to fit that more than Thiggy. It is that simple.
Welcome to AP and come back and post often.
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on May 18, 2009 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, they're VERY comparable.
That’s why I liked the acquisition and scratch my head when people talk like they’re these vastly different players. They both faced VERY similar difficulties last year, although Cassel had the better of the wideout situation. If I’d been Herm last year, I’d’ve put Tony G on the opposite edge from Bowe all day long, and brought in a mauler at TE. But that’s another topic.
Chiefs now have two QBs who’ve been tested by fire behind very questionable o-line play on the right side. Both are mobile. Both can mix it up with their feet if they need to. To me, the signing of Cassel actually HELPS Thiggy’s case, because he is so similar to Cassel in terms of skill-set – arm strength, durability, mobility. The playbook doesn’t need to change because either of ’em’s ridin’ the pine. Thigpen was very close to winning games with what he had LAST year, and there was little/no confidence in the #2 wideout. Patch that up, and both Cassel and Thigpen should be in pretty good position to win a lot of games.
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