King Carl Vs. Pioli
by doriang03 on May 6, 2009 11:19 AM CDT
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PrintTake a moment and think, what if King Carl had made all the moves that Scott Pioli has made up till this point in the off season?
Would you still be in favor of the moves?
I was recently thinking about a "what If" scenario in which Carl was never fired but he fired Herm, brought in an unproven head coach, traded away a hall of fame TE, traded a 2nd round pick for a starting QB & LB, singed some cast offs at LB, WR, CB and OL. All the while being more then 30mil. Under the salary cap.
In my opinion Pioli has gotten a free ride up until this point because he is the new guy in town, he treats the local media like step children and disrespects team leaders (Brain Waters). I have a feeling that if Carl were at the helm of this ship fans would be burning down that pretty new office building due to the lack of moves and arogance.
Lets not forget Pioli has never won without Bill and Haliey has never been a head coach & only called plays for one season. The one season Haliey called plays the Cardinals had argubly the two best recievers in the league and the worst running game.
Am I saying that I disagree with the hiring of Pioli No not at all I think he is one of the best young minds in the game but I don't want fans to become blinded to the facts just because he ISN'T CARL.
We have dreamed of the day that carl was kicked out of that office and his trench coats burned and now that we have seen that day come & go we are stuck with a guy who is just as arrogant as Carl but unlike the "King" Pioli has shown that he can find young talent.
As I said when the Roayls hired Dayton Moore "pray for the best but expect the worse and we will probally fall in between."
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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hell no
We would be finishing up our stadium making sure the seats are filled . we might of had a better draft under herm. WE would have gotten curry and try to improve our d . The only thing would have been diff is that we wouldent have cassel no way we make that move with king carl . Broken croyle would be challenging thig for the starting qb . I like what has pioli has done so far except for the off season season signing I wish we could have been a little more force full with our money .
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
Broken Croyle
Would be challenging Thiggy for a starting position if carl was still here! I would have been very optimistic about thiggy playing this year, but no matter how you look at it, i’d rather have Cassel, than Stafford, or Sanchez, so in my eyes, picking him up was like drafting a somewhat proven QB in the 2nd round. Cassel is low milage, and has spent his career backing up a future HOF QB.
....I'm drinkin hot tee b!tch, feel me.... - Lil' Wayne
by Undaunted_Fish on May 6, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Arrogance
isn’t a bad thing if you can back it up. Carl proved he couldn’t, but I think Pioli will be able to. I may be singing a different tune in 3 years, but until then I have complete faith in his ability to bring a championship to KC.
You know what I like the arrogance
Its like you know what we are good and fuck you if you dont like it . Its kind of like a band thing . Like what separates good bands is good tunes of course . But on top of that what puts you over the top is playing like your shit dont stink you get on stage you tell everyone fuck off and rock your ass off like you have been doing it for a million years. Thats kind of how i see pioli he has been their done that and he acts as if like this is what I do . I create winning teams. Im confident in what I do and my shit dont stink and if you think it does check out the rings biaaach
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
Track record
Peterson would be getting killed for these moves because he had proven conclusively that he couldn’t win anything, even when given decades of control to do so. He was wrong again and again, so why wouldn’t his latest moves also be wrong?
Pioli on the other hand had a big part in multiple Super Bowl championships. He’s proven that he can at least be an important part of the brain trust that wins again and again. That earns the benefit of the doubt.
Peterson never earned that. His track record showed that he did not deserve that. Pioli has earned the benefit of the doubt and has the rings to prove it, it’s that simple.
by Offense of the 70s on May 6, 2009 11:54 AM CDT reply actions
Peterson turned the chiefs from one of the worst football franchises to one of the best
quit acting like he destroyed the chiefs..he didn’t..he 100% turned this team around in the 90’s and the player personnel side as well as the business side was under his control and he made the chiefs a lot of money..The guy is a great gm in my opinion..
His downfall was hiring herm edwards..
If carl was such a horrible gm, then why aren’t you earning 3 million a year..Have some respect for people who have performed respectably at a level that isn’t easy..
by CALIFAN1986 on May 6, 2009 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Hold it
I don’t think anyone is really knocking Peterson, He did turn the team around, yes overall the Chiefs during his tenure, the Chiefs were a winning team. All I think he is saying, there have been a lot of GM’s accomplish A LOT more that Peterson did. I.E. Playoff wins, maybe a championship? Peterson should not be bashed, but he sure should not be considered a great GM, Probably not even considered a good GM.
....I'm drinkin hot tee b!tch, feel me.... - Lil' Wayne
by Undaunted_Fish on May 6, 2009 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions
he had 20 years to win a championship.
....I'm drinkin hot tee b!tch, feel me.... - Lil' Wayne
by Undaunted_Fish on May 6, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Marty had as much to do
with the Chief’s turnaround as Carl…in fact, minus Marty, how much success has the franchise really had?
by thejesuslizard on May 6, 2009 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree with Fish.
And just because someone isn’t in the position of GM, or earning a similar salary, is no means to justify the worth of anyone who does.
I don't have religion. I have Baduizm...and Billie Holiday...and Janet. Actually, just Janet.
by DThomasReigns on May 6, 2009 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Peterson was a crappy GM for the whole 20 years.
He was great at selling tickets and putting asses in the seats, but he only made 1 “great” move in reguards to the product that was actually on the field. He hired Marty Schottenheimer. Marty is the reason the Chiefs went from the gutter to the playoffs. Marty is the driving force behind the turn around of the Chiefs, not Carl.
His downfall came way before Herm Edwards. His player personnel moves over the 20 year term as GM were downright awful. Sure, he hit a gem now and again but even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile. Carl should never have been in charge of anything in reguards to the team on the field. He’s good with the marketing and ticket sales and that’s as far as his authority should have ever extended. 12 out of his 20 years were a joke. The first 8 years are the “success” story and those belong to Schottenheimer.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Your argument isn't fair
Peterson was a crappy GM for the whole 20 years.
He was great at selling tickets and putting asses in the seats, but he only made 1 "great" move in reguards to the product that was actually on the field. He hired Marty Schottenheimer.
Drafting Derrick Thomas was a “great move”…drafting Neil Smith was a “great move”
if we hold Carl Peterson ultimately responsible for the horrible personnel decisions of this decade (Siavii, Sims, et al.) then we must also hold him ultimately responsible for the personnel decisions of the 1990’s (Derrick Thomas, Neil Smith, Dale Carter, James Hasty, et al.)
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
Keep reading
Sure, he hit a gem now and again but even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile
And consider the entire post by Offense of the 70’s from below.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
If that's the case (assuming hitting a "gem" is a "great" thing)
then your post was self-contradictory.
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
Picking up 1 player is not a "great" thing
Picking the coach that can design a scheme that highlights the abilities of your “gems” and puts them in the best positions to do what they do best, resulting in a winning team is a great thing.
Carl should have stuck to selling tickets. He was really good at that.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Picking up 1 player is not a “great” thing
Even if that player becomes a hall of famer?
Belichick / Pioli drafting Brady wasn’t a “great” thing?
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
nope. It's a luck thing.
If they really thought he was going to be that great they never would have left him on the board until the 6th round. Having a 6th round player become one of the greatest players at his position in the league has very very little to do with the coaches/gm seeing the “it” factor in him. It has to do with the players work ethic and sheer will to succeed and prove their worth.
If you want to attribute the genius of the gm/coaches with taking Brady then you also need to smack them in the face with a shovel for allowing that player to sit there all the way to the 6th round and giving 31 other teams the chance to take someone they knew was going to be so great 5 or 6 chances to take them.
Give Tom Brady his credit. He put in the work and the time to become something no one expected him to become. Give the coaches some of the credit for showing a young kid the ropes and providing him with all the knowledge and tools he would need to become something special. Give Bledsoe some of the credit for taking a young guy under his with and encouraging him to succeed, even when it ment Bledoe would lose his job to him.
The GM that drafted him in the 6th round didn’t do anything “great”. Nothing at all.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
with = wing
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Hope so
If you are a GM for 20 years , I hope you draft a few decent players. Me and NFL Total Access’s draft coverage is all you need to draft a couple good players over 20 years. Montana? How smart do you have to be to trade for the best QB of all time when he becomes available.
....I'm drinkin hot tea b!tch, feel me.... - Lil' Wayne
by Undaunted_Fish on May 7, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
Hi Carl
Peterson had control for 20 years and won nothing, never even got to one Super Bowl. That is his bottom line in a very bottom line business. Make excuses for him all you want, but he got far more control and opportunity than pretty much any other GM in the game and won nothing.
He turned the Chiefs from a terrible team into a decent team that never got anywhere, and then back into a terrible team. That’s all we have to show for his 20 years. It’s an embarrassment to Carl to compare his accomplishments to Scott Pioli’s. Luckily, we have Piloi now. We’ll see if he can win in KC but whether it works out or not, we know two things: Pioli won and won big many times in New England, and Carl Peterson never won anything important in 20 freaking years in KC. No playoff wins in a decade and a half? No GM gets that much time to do absolutely nothing, but Peterson did.
20 years without a Super Bowl appearance. Not 5 years, not 7 years, like most GMs get at the most. Not 10 years, not 12 years, not 16 years, but 20. 20! This year’s rookies could barely walk when Peterson started as our GM. Enough is enough at long last.
Peterson is gone now and there’s no need to talk about him anymore, but the poster who started this thread brought it up, so now we have to go over the last 2 painful decades again.
by Offense of the 70s on May 7, 2009 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Even Al Davis went to the Super Bowl.
….and that man is bat shiiitt crazy.
by KCChiefs on May 7, 2009 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree...
You have too look at the track record. It has been 15 years since this franchise has accomplished anything of significance (no going 13-3 is not significant if you can’t win a playoff game). So if Peterson made these moves, I and other wouldn’t have confidence that the moves he is making is going to help make this team better.
Furthermore, Pioli is saying the right things. He is saying how it’s not about getting the right 53 not the best 53. He wants to build a new dynasty in Kansas City not just get us to the Superbowl once two, three, five years from now. What he says along with his track record makes me trust the moves he is making, because they have worked in the past.
Plus he probably doesn't make these moves...
Especially in the draft. He would have just taken Mel Kipers draft board off espn.com and picked best available player according to the “experts.”
I love how people rant and rave about “good” drafts and “bad” drafts before the players ever take the field. For all we know this goes down as one of the best drafts in Chiefs history…or one of the worst.
Nope
Carl most certainly did not just take the best players on Mel Kiper’s or anyone else’s board, I’ll give you a list if you want. If he had, we may well have done better.
I do agree with you that we have no idea right now if this will have been a good draft or a bad draft, and won’t for about 3 years, its a good thing, b/c I’m not real excited about it.
It all has to do with record, man...
We are ok with a guy signing veterans and drafting the less flashy guys if he has a fistful of Super Bowl rings in that capacity….
Carl – Zero Playoff wins in this decade, Zero Super Bowls in this decade
Pioli – eleventy playoff wins in this decade, Three Super Bowl victories out of Four Appearances in this decade
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
You can't compare the two
Pioli was never a GM with new england..Sorry
by CALIFAN1986 on May 6, 2009 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions
NE
Belongs to Belicheck. No real GM calling the shots there… The Kraft family, and Bellicheck. (however the @#$ you spell his name). From what I understand, Pioli and Bellicheck have been really the only people making decisions there, so maybe Pioli was never called “GM”, He sure had a taste of the roll there.
....I'm drinkin hot tee b!tch, feel me.... - Lil' Wayne
by Undaunted_Fish on May 6, 2009 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions
ever seen a video of a NE practice? Who is that guy standing next to Bellicheck most of the time looking intently at everyone there? I’ll give you a hint… Hes the same guy doing the same thing, standing next to Todd Haley during any minicamp video you see haley in.
....I'm drinkin hot tee b!tch, feel me.... - Lil' Wayne
by Undaunted_Fish on May 6, 2009 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Pioli's quote on Red Zone today...
….I had the role of GM
Talking about his title and job in New England….hmmmmmm…timely
Hey CALIFAN1986
check that out…
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
And I think Haley called the plays for Arizona for more than one season
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
Barely more
I think he took over midway through the previous season.
by Joel Thorman on May 6, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe
I think he took over mid way through last or started at the begining of this past season.
The bottom line is that when he got to Arizona the HC didn’t have enough confidence in him to allow him to call plays
South Side D
Flip side.
It may speak a lot to Haley’s ability that he wasn’t ‘trusted’ at first but it only took him half a seasons to get the respect to call the plays.
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
by Jux on May 6, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
it wasn't a trust issue
so much as a control issue by a head coach fresh off of being an offensive coordinator. he quickly learned he had someone very capable of calling a good game and relinquished that control to haley
Never kick a fresh turd on a hot day.
Harry S. Truman
i hope so.
....I'm drinkin hot tee b!tch, feel me.... - Lil' Wayne
by Undaunted_Fish on May 6, 2009 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions
It's all about winning
Carl and Herm did not wiin over past 2 and 3 years doing it their way. Pioli has the track record of making these kinds of moves and building a team in this fashion…to back it up. So, it is different. We should give him the benefit of the doubt at this point, unitl proven otherwise. It’s part of his plan, a winning plan.
doriang, you may be right, but it had to happen to move forward.
The gap between the best teams and the worst teams in the NFL is narrower than it is in any other major sport. I believe its a winning mentality that keeps teams on top while others habitually lose. Even if Carl had done every possible good move to this point we would still have trouble believing there is a new “winning” mentality in Kansas City. Didn’t everyone say we had a great draft last year? What good would have come if Carl had orchestrated another great draft this year only to again fail to change the mindset of the team.
There may be cause to say Scott Pioli hasn’t made every possible move so far to improve the team, but there is certainly no doubt that the cancer has been all but removed and there is a new attitude in KC, time will tell us whether its a winning one or not, but it certainly is new. As a twenty year incumbent King Carl was way beyond his window of change.
just keep matriculating the ball down the field !
its definatly reflected in the fandom
look at all the people on arrowhead pride.
how many 2 win teams get this kind of fan attention? We are all excited for next year. Even if you disagree with everything Pioli is doing he is definatly bringing a winning attitude and we are excited for it
"...Said he couldn't go on the American way"
by Jux on May 6, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Any kind of CHANGE
is good, when your 2-14, agree with it, or not. I was impartial to releasing, or retaining Herm Edwards, thinking to myself “maybe just give him one more year, things looked better 2nd half of the season.” Its just optimism for the team you love, and its a great thing. Things changed here, now I can look at it like someone who don’t love the chiefs: “We were 2-14 !?!?!?!?!” You think of the classically crappy teams in football like the Browns, Bengals, Texans, Lions, the ones you’ll most likely pick to loose, no matter what. Guys, all of those teams you used to think of like that, (exception: Lions) outperformed the Chiefs in 08. 10 years ago, I would have NEVER thought the Chiefs would ever have this rough of a season. Anything we change, to me, its only progress.
....I'm drinkin hot tee b!tch, feel me.... - Lil' Wayne
by Undaunted_Fish on May 6, 2009 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Here's my take
Carl wouldn’t have made the moves that Pioli did. Not even close. Besides, Peterson had 20 years to get us to the Super Bowl. He always deflected blame from himself. He was arrogant. And while I do believe that he DID care about winning, he cared more about profits than anything else. Peterson was a hell of a businessman, but he hardly knew shit about football.
Pioli gets a pass because he was an important component in helping the Patriots getting to 4 Super Bowls this past decade. But Pioli has an actual plan when it comes to building a contender. He’s not arrogant – he never said “look at what I accomplished”. He is a football guy, which is what the Chiefs need!
I don't have a girlfriend. I just know a lady who would be really mad if she heard me say that. -Mitch Hedberg
I'm curious about the arrogance thing....
I’ve never met Pioli nor have I met Peterson. My only way to judge their character is by what the media tells me and what I see on television. My judgement of Peterson came during the John Tait rookie contract negotiation. It takes someone truly arrogant or completely out of touch to think he can get away with talking to a staunchly religious man the way Peterson did to Tait. Peterson was also constantly concerned with his physical appearance. Even on the practice fields he was in a suit and tie. I haven’t developed my opinion of Pioli yet. On the surface, the Waters’ deal would seem a little iffy. However, it became obvious later that Pioli was in the middle of negotiating for Cassel and might have been truly unable to see Waters. Also, a good manager usually finds it necessary to publicly support his subordinate managers’ decisions even if he may not agree with them and corrects them later privately to ensure the chain of command remains intact. Otherwise, the big boss is inundated with trivial business his subordinates should be handling because he allowed someone to supercede the system. So, I don’t believe Pioli’s handling of Waters was a sign of arrogance, rather, it was good management. For those of you who believe Pioli is an arrogant man, on what, besides the Waters’ incident, do you base you opinion?
Starting new
Until it is proven that he has made bad decisions then give him a break. He is not Carl nor should he be compared as such. Anyone who can make us better deserves at minimum a chance so let him do his thing and sit back and watch us win!
It will be interesting
We are both (denver and KC) in the same boat, we have the devil you don’t know versus the devil you do know. I think this whole Patroits way BS gets so overblown, to my recollection, I have not seen the Patroit way run successfully outside New England.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Everyone needs to
remember 20 years ago Carl was the savior of the Chiefs. Granted his last few years he has made some bad decisions, but when he first got here he bought a new life to the Chiefs. We were the door mat of the NFL the attendance was way worse than the last few years.When you went out on sundays you would see more stuff from other teams than you did chiefs stuff. I am glad we hired Pioli we don’t know how good he is but it is a change we needed. But you have to give Carl Credit for making the Chiefs great for many years he just stayed to long and lost the edge he once had.
by bringbacktheglory on May 6, 2009 8:26 PM CDT reply actions
I give him credit for Hiring Marty Schottenheimer, and selling tickets. That's all
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
Carl would never had traded for Cassel.
It was pretty obvious that Carl under-valued the QB position. He never developed one in 20 years.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
read the Media Watch column on the Chiefs website
Talks about Mark Hatley, hired as a scout in ‘88 and was Pro Personnel director until ’96. He is the one who found the good players. He was probably Carl’s best hire other than Marty. The Chiefs excelled during his tenure, and then collapsed through poor draft after poor draft and not finding the free agents after this guy left. Carl had it going on for a little while, but after Marty left, I never did agree with Gun as head coach, and trying to throw a team together under Vermiel was a joke. Great offense won’t win championships. I think Carl screwed Herm over by not going with a youth movement immediately and then making the playoffs and putting it off for another year. Looks to me like Herm left us stocked with some talent but had kind of given up on the mental side of it. If Carl hadn’t had Mark Hatley bringing in good players, we wouldn’t be arguing about whether Carl was good because he would have been exposed as not so good years earlier.
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