Why the Chiefs Must Trade Glenn Dorsey
by KU2010 on May 24, 2009 12:38 AM CDT
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PrintScott Pioli, like Bill Belichick, chooses his words carefully. He speaks delicately to ensure his message is not misconstrued.
Pioli had a very distinct message following this year's draft: The future of the 3-4 DL for the Chiefs lies in his first two draft picks—Tyson Jackson and Alex Magee.
Jackson will start immediately at one of the DE spots, and Tank Tyler will in all likelihood start at NT, but the other DE spot is up for grabs. The main competitors will be Magee, Glenn Dorsey, and Alphonso Boone.
Jackson, at 6'4", 296 lbs., is the ideal size for playing DE in the 3-4 and was a dominating presence at LSU.
Magee, who is 6'3", 298 lbs., was known as a great run stopper at Purdue. Magee is also very versatile, as he played both DE and DT while in college. These attributes will translate well when learning the new 3-4 DE position, where the main concern is containing OL.
Glenn Dorsey, while at LSU, had very few two-gap responsibilities. His main focus was getting to the quarterback; this is how most DTs in a 4-3 defense operate.
Dorsey was very good at getting upfield and being a disruptor. He was a force to be reckoned with while he was on the field.
These kinds of talents are coveted by defensive coaches, especially those who play a form of the Cover 2 defense, and this is exactly why the Chiefs are paying Dorsey $51 million.
Unfortunately, there is no place for a one-gap, disrupting defensive lineman in a 3-4 defense. The responsibilities for these players completely change, and Dorsey doesn't have the body for this.
Just as a reference:
Dallas DEs
Igor Olshansky: 6'6", 310 lbs.
Marcus Spears: 6'4", 305 lbs.
Pittsburgh DEs
Aaron Smith: 6'5", 300 lbs.
Brett Keisel: 6'5", 285 lbs.
New England DEs
Richard Seymour: 6'6", 310 lbs.
Ty Warren: 6'5", 300 lbs.
Glenn Dorsey: 6'1", 300 lbs.
Just doesn't look right, does it?
Jackson and Magee fit in perfectly at 6'4" and 6'3" respectively, with both weighing in at 300 lbs. Not only this, but they were both proficient at stopping the run in college, while Dorsey didn't shoulder much of that responsibility.
Now, you know why Dorsey won't fit in a 3-4 scheme, but finding a trade partner is the hard part.
In Kansas City's defense last year, he was lined up head-up on the offensive guard and asked to try to control him, which didn't allow him to use his lightning-quick first step to try to fly into the backfield. This was much of the reason he didn't perform to expectations.
People around the league saw this bad coaching and still have a lot of faith in Dorsey's ability to be a star in this league. Reports from April were that Atlanta was offering a first and fourth for Dorsey.
The Falcons ended up selecting Peria Jerry, DT from Mississippi, who does a lot of what Dorsey does—disrupt the quarterback. Because of this, they are most likely out of the running for Dorsey.
There are several teams that would be interested, and when trade talks surfaced before the draft, these teams no doubt came out of the woodwork and showed themselves.
Tampa Bay is probably the most likely candidate, as a Cover 2 scheme relies heavily on DTs that rush the passer.
Carolina is another possibility—Julius Peppers wants out and wants to play in a 3-4. They already have a huge run-stuffing DT in Maake Kemoeatu, who is 6'5" and tips the scales at around 350 lbs., and Dorsey would compliment him nicely.
This would be a great trade for both teams, as this would fill the void in pass rushers the Chiefs have as well. Player-player trades rarely happen in the NFL, though, so I'm not getting my hopes up on this one.
The point isn't where Dorsey will go though; it's that he needs to go. He has no place in a 3-4 defense, he is eating away at the salary cap, and he may be riding the pine come Week One this year.
Pioli, before the draft, started the rumors about moving Dorsey, and after the draft started them again with his choice in draft picks.
The question in Kansas City is not if Dorsey is traded, but when.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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I think you missed this quote from Dorsey a few days back...
“A lot of people are thinking this is a straight 3-4 defense and it’s not,” said Dorsey. "Being at an end is a new place for me, but it’s not going to be a classic 3-4 end on every snap. I think I can do it. It’s something new to get used too. I’m trying to get better with it and trying to improve one day at a time.
“There’s a place for me in this defense.”
I just mean that to say...
That I think he will be fine and if not he may be traded next year…but his value of course will probably be less…but who knows…
I agree
I believe he will be very productive for the Chiefs this season and beyond. This defense is being built around the talent on the roster, not trying to force square pegs into round holes. Earlier this off-season Haley stated they were lining up the majority of the time in the under formation, which Dorsey makes a perfect under defensive tackle in this scheme. Whether they line up in the under package or a different scheme, I believe they will do it according to the talent level they have. You can be they know what Dorsey brings to the table, and will do everything possible to utilize those talents. I can’t wait for the season to start so all these people lamenting the change to the 3-4 and how Dorsey supposedly does not fit in can see how they Chiefs will actually be lining up on D. I myself am very excited, and think a ton of people will be surprised. Will we be a top ten defense this year? Probably not. It usually takes a couple seasons for everyone to click, but I do think it will be a very good defense in the end.
Also, 3-4 under suits Dorsey, IMO.
I think most of the lamenting is from people trying to fit Dorsey in at NT, which really isn’t how he sizes up. But with 4-3 ‘tweener DEs making the shift to OLB, thx to Jackson at LDE, I’d think there’s quite a bit of 4-3 flavor in the 3-4 the Chiefs appear to be aiming toward, especially if a Peppers or Ellis or LaBoy shows up in training camp, all unexpected-like.
The big issue is the learning curve for players and possibly moreso for coaches. Pendergast’s success in the playoffs suggests he’s pretty good at coming up with an aggressive scheme that fits the players he has. He’ll probably benefit from more of a smash-mouth style of offense than the quick-strike style that Haley ran in the regular season in AZ. I didn’t track it, but my sense is that AZ didn’t win a whole lot of time-of-possession battles in the regular season. Part of their success in the playoffs was unveiling a pretty convincing running attack, and a swarming defense.
Part of the square-peg/round-hole thing might be getting your square pegs in pairs, so the players’ job descriptions are (generally) the same. Ya gotta come up with a scheme that doesn’t fall apart because you’re rotating another player onto the field, and the #2 guy has to be able to handle the basic job. I think that was something that was missing from previous KC coaching. Seemed like the whole thing was based on the starters being 100% for the defense to do what it was designed to do, and a head cold by one player wrecked the (too-)carefully laid plan. I’m no coach, but I’d rather see Dorsey bringing something extra to a basic scheme that Boone can handle. And there’s no doubt in my mind that Dorsey can fulfill the basic job description of RDE in a 3-4/4-3 hybrid.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but I think a big factor that is overlooked by many in this whole Dorsey discussion is the fact that Dorsey is going to be part of a front that will in all likelihood be significantly BIGGER than the front of which he was a part last season. If anything, this front looks better-designed to give Dorsey some help.
Tyler will come with more mass and less ballerina in HIS new job description, and let’s face it – none of us want to see him in tights. Jackson is a true 300 pounder on the left side, so in a 4-3 or a 3-4 look, Dorsey will have more power in the players around him. The smallest guy “up front” would be 250 lbs if Hali gets the nod, there, and makes it down to that target. Not sure where McBride will end up (weight-wise anywhere from 250 to 280 or position-wise – could end up at either OLB or DE or FA). Vrabel may want to drop 10 pounds, to squeeze another year or two out of his career, and that’d put him at 251. I’m discounting all the promising UDFA, and haven’t even mentioned Magee (but I see Magee as the guy who’ll be in a rotation with Dorsey – although 4-3 looks with Magee and Dorsey sharing the middle might be worth a look).
If anything, the hole I see is who’s playing behind the rookie playing 5-tech on the left side? Do the Chiefs have another guy who can hold down that side while Jackson’s on the bench? Flipping thru the possibilities in my dain-bramaged mind, Dorsey is the guy I come up with as the closest thing to the job description.
Steve_Chiefs – this is a learning post – not a teaching post! :o) Almost didn’t post it, but I figger that’s kinda what these threads are for, especially in the offseason with non-football geeks who love the game. Guys can ban me or threaten to, if I become TOO tiresome! :o)
I liked it
Tex and others bring the D, you bring it Mills :)
Aside, Say what you want and how you want around here, I was out of line with the Critique.
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on May 24, 2009 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Thx, Steve_chiefs, but
I’m contradicting myself on the Magee thing. If you read more than one of my posts, you see Magee on both sides of the line, depending on what point I’m making at the time. sigh My recent learning is telling me that Magee is, as you say, projecting for the left side.
But maybe my crappy reasoning has some basis in fact. Magee might very well play both sides in one game. But I think that conventional wisdom is penciling-in Boone as Dorsey’s backup, with either Boone or Magee playing RDT next to Dorsey in 4-3 looks, and Magee mainly penciled-in as Jackson’s backup for the near term.
Heh. Playin' both sides.
Stretched out on the ground with arms over his head, parallel to the line of scrimmage.
give the man a chance...
atleast see how he does……why trade him away before you ever get to see him take a snap. I dont think Haley or Pioli are that stupid.
I really don’t think Magee at 6’ 3" is any more well suited than Dorsey at 6’ 1"
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
sure confused me
Magee wasn’t even on my radar
Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.
Not on mine, either, 808
If you read his negatives in his NFL.com scouting report, you’re thinking “downside potential.”
DE/DT ’tweener, who, at 298, is said to have the frame to handle at least another 10 lbs. Hard to pigeonhole him. But the things they said in his profile about how he lead the defense in college, and the way he came across in his interview is very encouraging. In a re-tooling year, the Chiefs are especially hungry for versatility (I think versatility will always be a plus for Pioli, but even more so, short-term).
Maybe Magee is your backup 5-tech
And call him 808, Nanz, Chuck, JIm but don’t call him Nancy :)
Let's Kick some ASS in 09 or Die trying
by Steve_Chiefs on May 24, 2009 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Could be, Steve_Chiefs
In the new job last year, I think he racked-up 3.5 sacks and 6 TFLs.
A strong admixture of DT attitude and expectations should be right up Magee’s alley. He might become the ultimate utility player for the Chiefs, able to give quality minutes at both DE spots. But that’s a lot to ask of a rookie, even one with the mental toughness and attitude that he projects my way. But there are height and armspan issues with him at the 5-technique, from what others say, at any rate.
Myself, I see this 3-4 shift as more of a 5-2 sort of thing. … skimming sites… Wow! Never thought much of Fantasy Football, until I found
Alex Magee lowered his 40 yard dash time to an impressive 4.82 seconds at his Pro Day workout. He has been quietly making his case as the second best 3-4 end prospect in the draft behind Tyson Jackson. Magee will likely be selected in the early third round.
Supposing Magee DID make his case, it might be considered a coup for the Chiefs to grab the top two prospects at the position!
Hats off to FF people everywhere! I usually hate hearing people speculate about statistics for runningbacks more than wins for teams, but the better FF GMs ARE successful at predicting who’s going to rack up the stats, based on good analysis of teams and players. I’ll rarely engage in FF-type conversations, but some pretty good stuff.
a coup indeed
I actually liked the picks when they made them. reading a comment like this makes me think the picks were even better. If we actually did get the top two DE prospects in this draft, we may have just put the pieces in place for a dominant D-line for years to come. I think Dorsey will improve and become an animal and fit in well. Hats off to Pioli/Haley for building for a solid future.
Here's one for ya, Zodeman.
Adam Schein, who’s a FOXSports.com NFL Contributor, gives his rants on all the teams’ 2009 draft selections. He’s actually quite deferential toward Pioli, and says the master plan is to contend in 2010 and beyond.
I think the first step is to be respectable in 2009. I think they’ll do that, at least, and will be legit contenders for the divisional crown in a relatively weak AFC West. And if both starting wideouts can create CONSISTENT threats, the Chiefs could even go on a tear in the playoffs.
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