Setting the Story Straight on Larry Johnson, Part 1
From the FanPosts -PT
So we've been talking a lot about the Chiefs Larry Johnson around here lately and after reading and talking with a lot of the contributors to this site that one thing we're all curiously missing is hard numbers on LJ's true effectiveness in the 2008 season. To do this, I'm using numbers provided by Football Outsiders to give us stats that have been adjusted for the circumstances (ie: the difference between running on Denver versus running on Carolina last year) as opposed to the easily misleading, conventional "yds/carries/etc..." stats we see so often.
That said, the numbers aren't looking too great for LJ once they've been adjusted properly. Figures are after the break.
First thing's first, definitions. I'm going to be using some terms that aren't quite household terms just yet, even around here. Take a second and familiarize yourself with these terms (the explanations are pretty detailed, which is nice): DYAR, DVOA, and Success Rate (RB's only). EYds translate DVOA into yards per attempt figures, that means a positive differential between standard yards and effective yards shows a better RB than their stats indicate, a negative differential is the opposite.
All the following ranks and numbers are in relation to the top 49 RB's in the league for 2008 with 100 carries minimum. We'll look at LJ's numbers first and then we'll compare with those of other notable backs around the league.
Important: DYAR means a running back with more total value. DVOA means a running back with more value per play.
DYAR: For the 2008 season LJ had a DYAR of -37, ranking him 46 out of 49. That means that of the top 49 RB's in the NFL last year with 100 or more carries, 45 of them have more total value to their respective team than LJ to KC. The only 3 backs to turn out lower numbers were Justin Fargas (-78), Tim Hightower (-79) and Chris Perry at a whopping -137 DYAR.
Aside from Hightower, who proved he's not a feature back but a good complimentary split-back, that's pretty horrible company for a power back in the NFL. Johnson's numbers were in fact so bad that he was still 4 yards behind the average replacement (see Replacement Level) before being adjusted for opposing defenses (good for 42nd place).
DVOA: Larry's DVOA of -12.7% is good for 45th place out of the same 49. He was supplanted at 46 by Fred Taylor with Fargas, Hightower, and Perry all holding their ground at the bottom of the list.
EYds and Success Rate: Larry pulled down 874 all-purpose yards and 5 TDs in the 2008 season. Once that's been adjusted for circumstances we see LJ's yards drop by nearly 200 to 699. His success rate for 2008 was only 45%, which drops him in at 29th, worse than a full 59% of RB's listed.
Here's what these numbers mean when you look at the bigger picture: Larry's DYAR numbers give him an adjusted total value lower than all but 3 backs, two of which aren't exactly starting-quality (and never really have been for that matter) and the third was a rookie in a pass-heavy offense that shared carries with Edge James. His DVOA is almost as bad and shows virtually no marked compensation on a play-by-play basis over his total value but rather someone else managed to just barely edge out LJ in terms of value per play.
For comparison, take a look at the numbers turned out by backs around the league last year:
| Player | Team | DYAR | Rk | YAR | Rk | DVOA | Rk | VOA | Runs | Yards | EYds | TD | FUM | Suc Rate |
Rk |
| 34-D.Williams | CAR | 385 | 1 | 442 | 1 | 28.3% | 1 | 33.7% | 273 | 1,515 | 1,523 | 18 | 0 | 47% | 19 |
| 27-B.Jacobs | NYG | 300 | 2 | 247 | 4 | 22.4% | 3 | 16.9% | 219 | 1,090 | 1,319 | 15 | 3 | 51% | 7 |
| 26-C.Portis | WAS | 286 | 3 | 233 | 5 | 11.7% | 8 | 7.9% | 342 | 1,487 | 1,675 | 9 | 3 | 48% | 15 |
| 34-D.Ward | NYG | 265 | 4 | 214 | 6 | 25.9% | 2 | 19.2% | 182 | 1,027 | 1,092 | 2 | 2 | 51% | 8 |
| 20-T.Jones | NYJ | 252 | 5 | 262 | 2 | 11.9% | 7 | 12.7% | 290 | 1,312 | 1,469 | 13 | 2 | 54% | 3 |
| 21-L.Tomlinson | SD | 88 | 20 | 107 | 16 | -1.4% | 27 | 0.2% | 292 | 1,110 | 1,193 | 11 | 0 | 45% | 32 |
| 32-E.James | ARI | 46 | 29 | 39 | 31 | 0.0% | 21 | -1.3% | 133 | 515 | 535 | 3 | 1 | 44% | 33 |
| 27-L.Johnson | KC | -37 | 46 | -4 | 42 | -12.7% | 45 | -9.0% | 193 | 874 | 699 | 5 | 5 | 45% | 29 |
I included the top 5 backs by DYAR and then included LT and Edge because we see LT and the Chargers twice a year and just restructured his contract and Edge because he was the "power back" in Haley's last offense and has been a source of much comparison for a lot of people on both sides of the LJ battle. Notice how all of these backs were significantly better than their replacements (Ward and Jacobs skew that to some extent by being each other's replacements which is why they're both here) in DYAR and DVOA?
If one were to only look at only Success Rates for the 7 backs listed LJ's 45% doesn't look so shabby compared to the 47% posted by Williams. Williams, however, was in an offense led by Jake Delhomme (not exactly Dan Marino) that focused on the ground game heavily. He posted that 47% SR with 5 fewer fumbles (0) double the EYds, and 13 more TDs (18) as well as top marks in both overall and play-by-play value.
Now, despite his horrible numbers could he still be the best option on the roster at the moment? Probably not. If you look at Jamaal Charles' figures (his 67 carries didn't break the 100 needed to equalize comparisons so take this portion with a grain of salt) he turned in a far better season.
| Player | Team | DYAR | YAR | DVOA | VOA | Runs | Yards | EYds | TD | FUM |
| 33-K.Faulk | NE | 178 | 193 | 46.5% | 51.1% | 83 | 507 | 565 | 3 | 0 |
| 23-T.Choice | DAL | 157 | 105 | 32.0% | 18.5% | 93 | 471 | 587 | 2 | 1 |
| 25-J.Charles | KC | 63 | 66 | 15.3% | 16.5% | 67 | 361 | 330 | 0 | 1 |
JC's DVOA was almost a full 30% better and his DYAR was 100 points better. That doesn't mean he's at the level of a feature-back but rather a good barometer of what could be done behind our O-line's piss-poor excuse for blocking.
That in mind, what are everyone's thoughts on LJ's value to the Chiefs? I'm withholding a final verdict til I've had a better chance to look at our Line's adjusted performance in tomorrow's post but do these numbers sway anyone from one side to the other? Is LJ still the "lesser of two three evils" when it comes to our ball-carriers?
In Part 2 of this post, which should be posted tomorrow evening, I'm going to examine the numbers relating to our O-line for 2008 as well as comparing LJ, Kolby, and our O-line to their 2007 stats to see if we can get a better feeling for what to expect in 2009 should LJ be retained and/or Kolby stays healthy. Before you make the argument that the numbers were skewed by the line, remember, all our RB's had to deal with the same porous blocking.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Comments
Nice work
FYI JHWK…I slightly edited the title (“Larry Johnson” instead of “LJ”).
by Joel Thorman on Apr 9, 2009 1:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
There’s more coming tomorrow, the majority of the info is from Football Outsiders who have similar stats all the back through the 1997 season.
by JHWK on Apr 9, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome. Thanks for this post.
Very detailed and a great reference point for his 2008 season.
The downside is that I’m so worn out on LJ talk I can’t read all the way through. lol
"...said he could'nt go on the American way"
by The Steel City on Apr 9, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nice post
but charles fumbled twice not once
Thank you Carl for realizing that we are better off with you at home fingering your ass!
by afc west champs 2009 on Apr 9, 2009 1:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Only one was on a carry though
the 2nd fumble was after a catch out of the backfield. I’ll cover the receiving numbers by our RB’s in my next post.
by JHWK on Apr 9, 2009 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good stuff man
Thank you Carl for realizing that we are better off with you at home fingering your ass!
by afc west champs 2009 on Apr 9, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd be interested to see
the stats before and after LJ’s record breaking 416 carries in the 2006 season. Everybody says that once a running back carries that many times, they go downhill quickly.
by Reno_Chief on Apr 9, 2009 1:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll include those in my next post but
This is how his rank in DYAR and DVOA changed over the last few years in regards to 2006:
DYAR 2005: #1 overall
DVOA 2005: #2 overall
DYAR 2006: #5 overall
DVOA 2006: #5 overall
DYAR 2007: #42 overall
DVOA 2007: #41 overall
Sexy aint it?
by JHWK on Apr 9, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so we had a top 5 RB for two out of the last three years?
Beat the Donkeys!!
by schraggyj on Apr 9, 2009 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.nfl.com/players/larryjohnson/profile?id=JOH399484
That’s where you can check the LJ stats
Thank you Carl for realizing that we are better off with you at home fingering your ass!
by afc west champs 2009 on Apr 9, 2009 1:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Does this take into account that he was 4 games less than almost all of those other RB’s?
by EyePod on Apr 9, 2009 1:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That matters more
when looking at standard, unadjusted stats because you don’t take into account any other factors or distribute the value on a play-by-play basis like DYAR and DVOA do. So yes, these do account for him only playing 12/16 games.
by JHWK on Apr 9, 2009 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Must be nice to be Cassel
Looking at the site where these stats were compiled, Cassel ranked as #20 for QBs in terms of DVOA but since he was franchised he’ll get paid the average of the top 5 QB salaries this year. It was also interesting to note that he ranked higher than Thigpen in terms of QBs running the ball.
by Chiefs4Life on Apr 9, 2009 2:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Though in terms of DYAR
Thigpen was the #1 QB for rushing.
by Chiefs4Life on Apr 9, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
stupid........ if
you put last seasons stats into play with the suspensions, worse lines in the game, wildcat/spread offsense. how many starting QBs did we lose last year?
Since when did chiefs fans turn into Yankees fans?
by LeaveLJalone419 on Apr 9, 2009 2:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
All of those reasons
Are reasons why these stats are actually more telling and informative than standard, unadjusted stats.
The way things are adjusted by FO comes as close as possible to leveling the playing field so comparisons between athletes can be made more easily and with less need to consider things like offensive schemes, and O-line play.
by JHWK on Apr 9, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
im looking for to the future with out larry.
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
by sexassassin on Apr 9, 2009 2:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice but....
First, I must admit that while I am not a big fan of LJ’s behavior I would hate to see him given away without getting trade value. That said I was fascinated by a new concept of rating success of playmakers. So much so that I went to take a look at the Football Outsiders site to see a better explanation. After reading the explanation I came away dissatisfied with the concept. The problem is that success or “Hits” ultimately are highly dependent on game management decisions. While it is true that it is essential for players to perform well to win, it is also true that it is the coaches responsibility to come up with game plans which take full advantage of team strengths and opponents weaknesses and create schemes which keep the opponent guessing. If early in the game Team A predictably runs on first down in order to “establish the run”, is the lack of success the running backs fault? the OL’s fault? the teams fault? or the coaches fault? and how do I put all that into a table??
Clearly LJ is probably not as good as some of us think and not as bad as others believe. He had great numbers in 2005 and 2006 when running behind an offensive line with a number of years experience working TOGETHER. It’s unlikely LJ would have been near as good with a less proficient line in front of him (he is not Barry Sanders).
On the other hand while his production has really been down in 2007 and 2008 surely, part of that relatively poor production can be attributed to injury, new less experienced linemen and game management., all of which we hope will improve this year.
by BigRedCadillac on Apr 9, 2009 2:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Granted
there are some mitigating circumstances that simply cannot be adjusted for, you’re right. But that’s a big part of why I included Jamaal’s numbers for 2008, because he was working with the same O-line (as a rookie with much less bulk and “power” than LJ) and managed to show a DVOA (value per play) that was 30 percentage points higher than any Larry has posted since 2006.
Success rate is the big number here. It shows that LJ has lost a LOT of the power he relied on in 05 and 06 to get him through the line and into space. LJ is a one-cut-and-go style of back and he his 45% SR indicates that that first cut just isn’t getting him to space like it used to, lending strength to the argument that he has lost a step due to physical wear and tear.
by JHWK on Apr 9, 2009 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I was wondering if it can be broken down by game.
I’ll look, but in the mean time:
What about considering that when Jamaal was in, he was pretty well known to be our passing situation back. When LJ’s in, it was NO SECRET we were trying to run. He was the defense’s main focus ( which also probably made Thigpen so effective). I just mean comparing him to Charles isn’t concrete because it really wasn’t the same scenario. (good or bad, I guess)
BTW, I looked @ his numbers on Outsiders a few months ago too, and was pretty disappointed.
As far as “playmakers” though, No matter what, It’s never entirely on the RB as far as production. But w/ that being said, I was really sick of seeing LJ dive across the line of scrimmage.
I’m not disagreeing w/ anything you’ve said. You’ve made great points I’m just trying to throw in new questions.
"There are two armpits in America. Oakland and New Jersey."- Warren Sapp
by Dustin SLO,CA on Apr 9, 2009 10:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
None the less, which back stepped up to the plate in LJ’s absence last season??
I like Charles & Smith, but where is their production??
In the NFL, there is always a feature back, a back-up and a 3rd down back, each RB compliments the other, so in a since, we need everybody we got!!
Also, Charles should be our KR/PR & 3rd down back(Darren Sproles/Leon Washington)………………..in my opinion!!
by T MO 5 on Apr 9, 2009 3:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Dantrell Savage
is a better PR/KR man than Charles. Too much risk that Charles gets blown up on a return and we lose our speed-back, besides, Dantrell is shiftier and can hit smaller holes on returns plus just being harder to see because he is able to “hide” behind his wedges more easily than JC can (a few inches makes a BIG difference). Kolby was slowed by an injury last year and was at least as productive as LJ in 07, those numbers will be tomorrow though.
I’ve got more stats coming up tomorrow (part 2) to fill in the holes. I’m going to be finishing up comparisons of our RBs from the last few years to show the difference our O-line has made since 2005. I’ll also have O-line efficiency and all that jazz by the time it’s done tomorrow night and I’ll have finished analyzing all of it (that’s why it’s taking til tomorrow, there’s just so much damn information to sort out) so that it’s organized into the big picture.
by JHWK on Apr 9, 2009 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agreed
Savage runs like a Beast too! (or should i say…Savage????)
Charles scares me on returns too, I feel like he’s a little too brittle. Returning is an entirely different animal.
"There are two armpits in America. Oakland and New Jersey."- Warren Sapp
by Dustin SLO,CA on Apr 9, 2009 10:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What where the numbers for our other backs?
Larry has decline but this is also a complete measure of the running game. Part of the blame for this drop is poor offensive line play.
by saskwatch on Apr 9, 2009 5:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Comparing him to Kolby Smith would be more accurate although...
still flawed. Defenses stacked 8 in the box all the time against Larry. The do not respect the others as much. I know I am sounding like I am defensding Larry, but I am not. He is on the decline, and I think we should cut him, but just beware of stats. You can find stats to support almost any theory.
by saskwatch on Apr 9, 2009 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
good point
i ve seen people use stats to support some pretty stupid ideas.
by mgarc3000 on Apr 9, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where is Peterson on the list,
He is clearly the best running back in football, and I do not think he is in the top 10?
by saskwatch on Apr 9, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not REALLY the best rb in football
He just gets the most national publicity and is more fun to watch because he’s got a lot of big-play ability. AP was 17th among RBs in DYAR and 22 in DVOA last year. Remember, these stats are about analyzing value from many different angles to negate the bias of a RB in an offense that never passes or some RB corps gets stuck trying to run against 10 of the stoutest run defenses in the league one season, shit like that.
The point of this post and Part 2 tomorrow is to provide a more concrete foundation for evaluating LJ’s spot on this roster (and thus all the RBs and the starting O-linemen on the roster). And the more I look at these numbers the more I think some people might be surprised at how little the abysmal performance of our starting line the last few years had to do with LJ’s drop-off in production.
by JHWK on Apr 9, 2009 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thing w/ AP though,
He has A LOT have little runs and losses but always breaks a few HUGE gains. I’d like to see AP’s median #’s.
"There are two armpits in America. Oakland and New Jersey."- Warren Sapp
by Dustin SLO,CA on Apr 9, 2009 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry
should have read your post before I made mine. I agree with you, besides the cutting him part.
"There are two armpits in America. Oakland and New Jersey."- Warren Sapp
by Dustin SLO,CA on Apr 9, 2009 10:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very nice work
But, I’d be interested to know how each RB stats compared to their teams overall offensive ranking?
"But what do I know, I'm AP's new assclown and I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Apr 9, 2009 8:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I watch players play football to decide whether or not they are good...
No offense to JHWK at all, I apreciate any information I get about the Chiefs and football in general but I just feel like this type of stat analysis is better suited for baseball due to the one on one nature of that sport. Football, more than any other sport in the world, is a team sport. For that reason alone we care less about stats in football than any other sport and stats tend to mean less in football than any other sport.
I’m not sure if you’ve watched Adrian Peterson play, but he is by far the best running back in the league no matter what these statistical equations claim to prove.
And Jamal Charles is simply not a better running back, even now, than Larry Johnson, He’s a different kind of running back who gets more space to make plays because he’s always in on third downs….
But none the less, good work. The post is well thought out and obviously you put a lot of work into it…
I’m just not ready to put much stock in it.
by Chief Crazy on Apr 9, 2009 10:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Have to disagree
What Football Outsiders does is adjust against the situation and the team and compair the running back to the average results in the same situation.
So if it is 3rd and 1 and the average running back gets 3 yards in that situation that is the base. Then you look at how individual running backs did in that same situation, did they perform better or worse than the average. So if the RB only gets 1 yard he is below average.
FO does this for every situation and adjusts it for if you are playing a soft or hard defense. When you keep up with their stats all season you will find that the it truly shows what teams and players are best in the league without media bias. Peterson is a great break away back and ends up with huge yards for the game and year, he is a highlight back. That doesn’t mean that he is the best all around back in every situation.
by tevans96 on Apr 10, 2009 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Money
Nailed it right on the head.
I never said JC was a better RB than LJ. He’s not. End of story. What I said was, JC is probably more valuable as a back to us right now than LJ is based on their real-world performances after adjusting for variables. These stats don’t evaluate talent, they indicate objective value.
As for calling AP the best back in football: did you watch him play? He put the ball on the ground with breathtaking consistency.
by JHWK on Apr 10, 2009 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd disagree with AP being "by far the best rb in the league"
I may be mincing words here, but If you had said AP was the best “pure runner” in the game I may not have bothered to make a comment. However, AP has the same issue that LJ has. He isn’t a complete back. To be the “best RB in the league” you have to have ALL the tools, not just 1 of them.
AP comes out of the game on 3rd down too, because he’s a poor blocker and not built for abuse. His size lends to fast cutsbacks and explosive gains. It does not lend itself to punishing runs or banging it through a team that sells out to play the run. In that regard LJ USED to be a more complete back. Not only was he a bruiser of a runner in his prime, but he also broke plays for big gains.
Priest Holmes is the last all around RB the Chiefs have had on the team. He was a guy that was really good at every aspect of the position: bruising, cut-backs, blocking, route running, and pass catching.
If you are talking about pure big play ability while running the ball I would agree that AP is at the top of the heap, but Sproles isn’t that far behind him and Sproles has better value as a kick returner and pass catcher. Sproles is also not a bruiser, and not much of a blocker but he’s right up there with AP in big play ability.
I’d have to dive into some game tape and grind out some numbers to really give an educated opnion about who is the “best [complete] running back in the league”, but just off the top of my head I’d rank Westbrook and Forte above AP for their combined running, pass catching, blocking, and route running abilities.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Apr 10, 2009 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love FO's info
Their information is what convinced me that LJ will never be the back he was before Herm ruined him. Backs that carry the rock that much never have the production again that they did before. They either loose ability or fall to injury and both have happened to LJ.
Love the post, so glad to see more FO fans out there. Rec’d
by tevans96 on Apr 10, 2009 8:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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