Same Old Chiefs Defense
"Same Old Chiefs" was kind of the theme of last season between Chris and I. It seemed like we were blogging about the same thing over and over again, week after week, game after game. The season dragged on and the defense continued to do the same things over and over again to little avail. The team would play a decent first half, only to inevitably collapse in the 3rd and 4th quarters.
So what has really changed with the Chiefs' defense?
| Players Lost |
Players Gained |
| DE Jason Babin (UFA) | LB Mike Vrabel |
| LB Rocky Boiman (UFA) | LB Corey Mays |
| S Oliver Celestin (UFA) | CB Travis Daniels |
| LB Pat Thomas (UFA) | LB Monty Beisel |
| CB David Macklin (Released) | |
| CB Patrick Surtain (Released) | |
| LB Donnie Edwards (Released) |
The Chiefs re-signed S Jon McGraw and tendered S Jarrad Page with a second round tender as a restricted free agent. I think most of us will agree that both these players warranted being re-signed (especially considering the poor state of the Chiefs defense).
So what have we really done? Are you telling me a semi-scheme change in the defense will be that much of a boost?
Sorry. I don't buy it.
Let's say the Chiefs ignore the offensive line and go defense with their first two picks in April's draft. Are these draft picks (only two of which can likely be depended upon to start) going to have a bigger impact than Jason Babin and Rocky Boiman and Donnie Edwards (when healthy) and Patrick Surtain (when healthy)?
As someone who's firmly entrenched in the mindset that it's easier to win consistently for years with a great defense and mediocre offense (vs. a great offense and mediocre defense) I'm coming to grips with the fact that the Chiefs defense has a very good chance of being almost as terrible as they were last year.
The acquisitions during free agency, while definitely upgrades in certain spots (Vrabel and Beisel), aren't nearly enough to warrant any game-changing predictions about the Chiefs defense.
With all that said, I know I'm being impatient. As Chris blogged in early March, the Chiefs shouldn't expect more than an 11 spot defensive ranking boost on average over the course of the next season. But, in most of those cases, the offseason acquisitions have been more than a 34 year old linebacker.
Only the Lions would do the same thing over and over again and expect different results.
1 recs |
76 comments
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Comments
I don't think the defense is going to improve by leaps and bounds
but this article completely ignores one big change – the coaching staff.
the new defensive staff and the new head coach may improve the defense, they may make it worse (though I fail to see how that is even possible).
But one thing is certain, the coaches have changed. let’s hope that helps.
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Apr 8, 2009 7:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
One of the biggest problems last year
the defensive line, still has it’s coach.
by Chris Thorman on Apr 8, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right
And it all starts with the defensive line.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 8, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was a reason Pioli, Hunt, and Haley chose to keep Krumrie
I don’t pretend to know what that was, but as bad as our d-line was last year, they still chose to keep him…there has to be something to that.
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Apr 8, 2009 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Todd Haley...
just likes asshole coaches who scream at players, regardless of whether they get results from it.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
b/c then we would have kept gun.
by DT58forever on Apr 8, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
And not to sound like you-know-who here, but players gotta play. I don’t think a change in the scheme will revive this defense. Maybe you can put me in the believe it when I see it boat.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 8, 2009 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe the
“Show-me state” of mind? :)
and you forgot to close your parentheses.
My crystal ball says Jay Cutler cries himself to sleep every night.
by IISaiNtII on Apr 8, 2009 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There are two other things it ignores.
The first is “(when healthy)”. Those guys weren’t healthy and chances are they are going to get hurt again this year. The second is another year of experience. It’s been said many times before that it takes a good 3-4 years for D linemen to develop and we’re just starting to get into that territory.
by JComp11 on Apr 8, 2009 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Experience
The biggest improvement should come from the players now having been there for a year. I look for the D-line to have a big jump in production, Hali was out of position last year and should be better, Dorsey – DTs always take time to get better. Our secondary is set for years. LB is where I see the largest need for new talent and with the chance to get the best player in the draft two years in a row we should see improvement next year.
Also killing the cover 2 should help.
by tevans96 on Apr 8, 2009 8:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
The defense would be better with the exact same guys. Carr, Flowers, Pollard, Page, Dorsey, Tyler, McBride are all still young guys who will continue to improve. If we can get a decent pass rush this defense will be a lot better. Also the leadership of Vrabel will help.
by saskwatch on Apr 8, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bring them back for what?
They obviously didnt pan out last year. Our defense was terrible, especially in clutch situations. The players that were on the defense last year just didnt get it done, so lets replace them and see what happens. New coach, new scheme, new players.
by davidhusker on Apr 8, 2009 8:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Cover 2
I really think the scheme makes a big difference.
There is more young talent on this team, especially on defense, than we’ve seen in years.
Dorsey, Hali, Johnson, Flowers and Curry? that is a core of a defense that CAN be great for years to come.
I firmly believe the Chiefs are one ILB, and one DE away from being a top 10 defense.
They also need to find more depth at LB and DB, so the whole season isn’t screwed when injuries happen.
by stagdsp on Apr 8, 2009 8:19 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice Response
My rebuttal:
Dorsey, Hali, Johnson, Flowers and Curry?
At this point, that’s just wishful thinking. Dorsey has shown nothing (not a knock on him), Hali has regressed every year, Johnson’s been average to above avg at best, Flowers is the man and you want Curry to produce in his first year?
I believe that core can be good, but they haven’t shown squat. Besides, we’ve railed on our d-line coach for a while now (Tim Krumrie) and he’s still there. So not much has changed in that area.
by Joel Thorman on Apr 8, 2009 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Dorsey has shown nothing"
Other than having the most tackles for a rookie D Linemen and among the top for first and second years….
by JComp11 on Apr 8, 2009 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah why do people keep saying Dorsey showed nothing?
He stuffed the run and racked up the tackles. You just say he showed nothing because we expected him to be a pass rusher and the Chiefs didn’t use him that way.
by Vince D on Apr 8, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1 I am so sick of hearing this crap about Dorsey.
He did exactly what was expected of him last year. He drew double teams play after play and did a nice job against the run. people are already talking about him like he is a bust and I think he did a nice job for a rookie.
i am going to give Hali the benefit of the doubt as well. We found out with certainty that he cannot play on the right side but, when he moved back to LDE, he looked pretty good. he was out of position most of the year so what we know about him is, he is productive, as long as you dont move him around.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Apr 8, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's all potential at this point
I’m not saying they’ve lived up to their potential YET
I’m not voting for any of them for the Pro Bowl YET
All I am saying is that they are all 1st/2nd round picks with loads of talent, and have the potential to be a great core IF used properly.
Dorsey had a solid year, not spectacular. He was misused… same with Hali
I think and hope that the new coaching staff will find a way to use all of these guys in ways that highlight their strengths.
Hali is athletic and has a great motor, same with Dorsey. I think Curry CAN produce in his first year… he’s an incredible talent.
by stagdsp on Apr 8, 2009 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great motor is that the equivalent of calling a white basketball player scrappy?
by HIV 2 Elway on Apr 8, 2009 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll take a scrappy or great motor over lazy superstar anyday.
If this team is run the “patriot way” they will get more production out of these guys than prior coaching staffs… and they will build a system that you can plug in just about any player and they can keep rolling along.
by stagdsp on Apr 8, 2009 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meh
I’m not sure Hali’s motor is good enough to expect more than what we’ve seen out of him. When I think of good motors I think of a certain unheralded second-day draft pick who now plays D-line for the ViQueens and outsacked the entire Chiefs team last year. That is a good example of a guy who didn’t have the best measurables, but used a great motor to become pretty good at his position. It also helps that JA’s batshit insane (in a good way).
Maybe Hali just needs some more crazy.
by chiefstatnut on Apr 8, 2009 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't "unheralded"
He was a dominating pass-rusher (albeit from a I-AA school)…he fell to the fourth because of concerns with his"extracurricular activities"…
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Apr 8, 2009 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Defense should be better...
without Sperm Edwards and his Tampon 2, bend dont break bullshit
by ArrowDread on Apr 8, 2009 8:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
With The News That His Drug Test Failure Was B.S.
I wonder if maybe B.J. Raji hasn’t worked his way back into the Chiefs’ possible draft plans? If they’re running a 3-4, they’ll need a nose tackle and he looks like a good one. And they could probably live with Dorsey as a DE until they’re ready to trade him away.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 8:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
not sure
I’m not sold on Raji.
and
I’m not sure that a NT is really the missing piece at this point.
It is about the LB and DE, in my mind.
by stagdsp on Apr 8, 2009 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's be realistic
The move to a 3-4 is not going to be in full swing this year.
It may have been different if there was a solid NT prospect or even a top 5 3-4 LB. But Raji smells like problems, and i think the new staff has a good nose
"...said he could'nt go on the American way"
by The Steel City on Apr 8, 2009 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't discount coaching vs the old coaching
Personally I always saw the Chiefs second half collapses as a result of Herm’s bad coaching. Good coaches/the rest of the nfl made half time adjustments where the Chiefs always failed to adjust in the second half to the other team’s changes from half time. This wasn’t just the D either. How many 3rd quarter points did we score last year??? I believe Haley will change this (reference this year’s super bowl)
by AK_47 on Apr 8, 2009 9:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Right Scheme for the Players Available
This is where coaching is important and I believe it is where Herm Edwards failed miserably.
Herm was a system guy and he forced his system down the throats of his team. The only time I can remember Herm making an adjustment for the players he had was when we went to the Arrowspread for Thiggy. This didn’t produce any wins but it did produce points and if you remember how terrible our offense looked after the Carolina and Titans games you will agree that it improved our offense.
This was a smart move and could have produced more wins than it did with better coaching. You have to admit that there were at least four games we should have won. The Chargers game jumps to mind, so does the Jets game.
The problem here is Herm never budged on his fing Tampa Two. It wasn’t working. There should have been a massive scheme change to fit the players we had.
Scheme change can help dramatically. Of course you still have to have the talent but you can’t back yourself into a corner by asking guys to do things they aren’t capable of doing.
It goes along with "the right 53, attitude. Get the team playing on the same page and mazimize the players talents. We don’t have to have a top 10 D this year. We just need a capable one. I think we have enough talent, especially if we draft Curry to have a capable D.
I believe our strength lies in the offense right now. If the team is managed correctly we should be able to compete and win some games.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on Apr 8, 2009 9:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree....
I remember before the Denver game, Derrick Johnson went into Guns office and told him to let him play freely. He said basically “just let me do my thing” so Gunther did. That was the best game I have ever seen DJ have. the next week, it was the same old shit. I believe that herm told Gun that he wanted things done a certain way and made them go back to his scheme. DJ did not look as good for the rest of the season.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Apr 8, 2009 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
This was a smart move and could have produced more wins than it did with better coaching. You have to admit that there were at least four games we should have won. The Chargers game jumps to mind, so does the Jets game.
All of the really close games didn’t seem to come down to the players. With the exception of Bowe and the onside kick, most of the close game losses can be directly placed on the back of the coaching staff.
"...said he could'nt go on the American way"
by The Steel City on Apr 8, 2009 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the draft
I think we should take a defensive player that we know can make an imeediate impact on improving our D. By all the accounts I hear, Curry is that guy.
Jared Allen didn’t blow up for a few years. We don’t have time to wait. If we keep losing like we have been the last two years we could fall into a tail spin from which we may never recover. Everything is new and it is time to start winning again.
If a player can’t step in right away and impact the team I say they are a waste of a first round pick. We aren’t in the position, like say the Patriots, where we can draft a guy like that.
Take Curry and get your defensive leader. He will come in and make the players around him better, like all stars do. This is very, VERY important. DJ may not be playing to his expected potential but he is certainly no bum. If Vrabel holds up and Curry is the star he is supposed to be I bet you our D line will look a lot better this year.
It has just been my understanding that D linemen take a few years. We good drafing of D lineman in the later rounds that we can groom over a couple of years. We have all these young D lineman we drafted already. Hopefully they should be developing.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on Apr 8, 2009 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We were very poor defensively last year
And there are some things that really need worked on. My biggest concern in the line play, especially with the same line coach in there. Hopefully there will be something to mix it up.
2nd concern is getting to the quarterback. I don’t care how we are ranked next year, if we don’t produce some sacks it will be another very poor season.
But when I think about all these things I have to remember back to watching the games. The defense was forced to be on the field A LOT in the chiefs games. Unlike the offense, where the more your on the field the better chance you have of upping your stats, the defense ends up with better stats the less they are on the field. (okay i guess sacks and INT don’t count. But yrds allowed, etc)
So I really think if we can keep the defensive off the field, put some points on the board early to take some pressure off, and finish out the second half we could really improve next year.
How many of last years games did it seem we lost by just a few plays?
"...said he could'nt go on the American way"
by The Steel City on Apr 8, 2009 9:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Scheme is huge
Porter, LB in Miami looked like crap a season ago, then last season he comes back and lights up the league. He wasn’t being used properly until last season.
The Chiefs have talent on the D, Herm just didn’t know how to move his pieces on the NFL chessboard, hopefully, this coaching staff does.
by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Apr 8, 2009 9:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There's only one player the Chiefs could take first round that would make our defense better.
10 sacks last year. 10. We need a DE. Not only do we need a DE, we need a DE that can drop into coverage as a linebacker if we are using a hybrid defense. The guy we need is Everette Brown.
Aaron Curry is a very solid player but he does not immediately make our defense better. Our defense won’t be better until we can get penetration on the line. Our secondary is already solid. Tamba Hali has proven he can get SOME pressure on the left. Tank Tyler and Glenn Dorsey aren’t superstars but they are still extremely young. You better believe both of them are working hard this offseason because they don’t want to be man-handled this year. We need our Jared Allen back, but we need someone who can also drop back as a linebacker. Everette Brown is the only option that makes sense for us.
Fortunately, since he’s rated below Orakpo for some crazy reason, even if we drop back a few spots we can still pick him up. Does anyone else here think Everette Brown is the only player that can immediately make our defense better?
by Vince D on Apr 8, 2009 9:26 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If we can trade out of #3 and pick our second back up
OR any other combination to be in a spot to pick up brown, then he is our man. I really like Rey too (I’ve heard great 3-4 prospect??)
But if not, then its curry.
"...said he could'nt go on the American way"
by The Steel City on Apr 8, 2009 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am most impressed
with the comments about Everette Brown’s work ethic, attitude, and how seriously he takes his health and conditioning. Those things added to solid (not necessarily super) athletic ability usually result in great football players
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Apr 8, 2009 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For all you arm chair coach’s…………I don’t care how much talent you have, if you don’t have the right coaches nor the right scheme , it won’t work!
I played football for 20 yrs and have been coaching for 15 yrs, I played LB, and I am a defensive coordinator, and I’ll be the 1st to say, if your LB’s are not the best athletes on the field, then you have nothing!!
I say this because scheme means everything, I run a 4/3 base look, with 3/4 personnel, basically 3 DL’s & 4 LB’s. I attack from the weak side, and I confuse offenses with my array of blitzes & coverages! I never run the same defense 2 times in a row(confusion)!
But my point is, over the years, I have recruited kids that played on other teams during the regular season for tournament play, and let me tell you…………………I’ve beaten those teams 50-0, saw talent on their team playing out of position, or being coached wrong. Once I got them, I put them in a position to excell……………….to me, that makes all the difference in the world!
The right coaching & scheme!!
by T MO 5 on Apr 8, 2009 9:27 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic Drafting
Think of it like this. Jared Allen was drafted in the 4th round.
If he were in the draft today he’d be a top 5 pick. The dude had 9 sacks his first season. Pretty damn good.
Then in 2005 he had 11 sacks and a sick 7 forced fumbles.
2006 was a bit of a step back with only 7.5 sacks. Although his did have his highest tackle total ever at 77.
Then in 2007 he freaked out and blew up. He is arguably the best defensive end in football. He is now good for about 13-16 sacks and around 3 forced fumbles a season.
He came from the 4th round.
I think if Curry is the safest bet in the draft to be a good NFL linebacker for us for 7-10 years I say take his ass.
If Pioli lives up the his billing, he should be able to find us a Jared Allen in rounds 3 or 4.
all our hopes don’t lie in the first round. If we get Curry and he delivers and we find a guy good for 9 sacks like Allen was in 2004 and put Halli back where he belongs….we might just be ok.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on Apr 8, 2009 9:44 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Again
Just to keep things in perspective, Jared Allen would probably have been a first day draft pick had he not been Drunky McGee in college
Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.
by PVChiefsfan on Apr 8, 2009 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
We need to find a player in the later rounds that is valued lower because of non-football issues.
Hell now that i think about it, I wouldn’t mind Raji if the powers that be decided he was athletically worth it and he dropped low for us. (I know he won’t, just an idea)
"...said he could'nt go on the American way"
by The Steel City on Apr 8, 2009 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he was
drafted as a long-snapper i thought
by DT58forever on Apr 8, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
scheme scheme scheme
If pioli brings the new england scheme over here its over. Like I stated before new england ran a machine they made old players look like stars and were able to throw in new players in the mix and they would be just fine. I think we are just a line backer and a pass rusher away after that everything will be down hill. Getting pressure on the qb can go a long way it makes everyone better .
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
by sexassassin on Apr 8, 2009 9:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
I agree completely this team is 4or 5 player’s away from being complete! IMO we need to put these young guy’s in and see if they can play or not(OFFENSE & DEFENSE)! If we are going to the 3-4 we have no choice, especially since the last 2 yrs we have drafted guy’s that fit the 4-3 scheme! On the Offensive side of the ball we need to draft a Center with our third pick (unless we get a second rd pick) and then look for a RT later on,IMO that would give us a good Offense (not great-but good)! It wouldnt hurt my feelings any if we traded about 3 or 4 of our WR’S for another good one either! On the defensive side of the ball we need a good LB and pass rushing DE! IMO this team need’s a good MLB, will Curry be a good MLB only time will tell, but i really think if we can trade down that it would help this team more than hurt it! I know curry is a stud, but ill take 2 good player’s over 1 great player anytime! I wanted to ask what you guy’s think about T.Hali playing OLB in the 3-4, do you guy’s think he could pull that off?
by CPT.Caveman on Apr 8, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, to answer the Everette Brown question, Conner Barwin(DE/OLB) 4.47 forty, had 11 sacks and 3 blocked punts last yr and can drop back into coverage, as well as catch a TD pass as a TE!
I wouldn’t take him with #3 pick, projected to go in 2nd round but he’s a guy we need as well!!
So if any team is offering a trade that would allow us to drop down in the draft, and pick up a 2nd rounder, thats the way I would go!!
by T MO 5 on Apr 8, 2009 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree
Getting another team to trade picks with is the issue.
by Mac'sSon on Apr 8, 2009 10:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
More premature than twelve year old fat kid PT...
Overall, we think the position coach argument is garbage. It’s like trying to evaluate the painters at a VW plant: “Do they all turn into rust buckets after ten years? Yeah, but you don’t just assume its all the painters’ fault when that type of micro evaluation is impossible.”
As for Gunther, we don’t know, the lack of cohesion between the different defensive units was so terrible last year we’ll be interested to see what happens in Detroit.
We do know one thing, our HC was a former defensive back and last year our defensive backfield made up of primarily rookies looked like a pack of six year veterans. The AP was hollering to can Gunther and make Gibbs DC. Not to knock Gibbs, but he was immediately hired by his dad’s (Alex) team to be the Texans DB coach after Pioli & Co. didn’t see fit to retain him.
As for Krumrie, the fact he got invited to the combine a year ago to work out DL’s tell us whatever Pete Carroll and Hard Knocks have led us to believe, the rest of league respects him if for no other reason than he’s been around a long time and had an impressive playing career.
So here’s our prediction (which is vastly premature pre-draft, take note PT) it’d be damn near impossible to break top 15 (don’t discount Pioli’s ability Bruschi and Jarvis Green were 3rd & 4th rnd picks) but we expect to see better front seven play probably at the expense of seeing Carr and Flowers fall off their respective pedestals a bit.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Apr 8, 2009 10:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A Couple Of Your Arguments Don't Hold Water
The AP was hollering to can Gunther and make Gibbs DC. Not to knock Gibbs, but he was immediately hired by his dad’s (Alex) team to be the Texans DB coach after Pioli & Co. didn’t see fit to retain him.
Monte Kiffin was immediately hired by his son for a college team in Tennessee…does that mean that Monte Kiffin wasn’t a capable defensive coordinator who could find a good job elsewhere in the NFL? Just because there’s an appearance of nepotism, it does automatically follow that the hiring was done simply because of nepotism.
As for Krumrie, the fact he got invited to the combine a year ago to work out DL’s tell us whatever Pete Carroll and Hard Knocks have led us to believe, the rest of league respects him if for no other reason than he’s been around a long time and had an impressive playing career.
Where does it tell us this? Krumrie’s worked for three different teams…Cincinnati, Buffalo and the Chiefs. None of them were premier jobs when he took them and nobody was knocking down his door to hire him after last year’s debacle. Probably because his career in the NFL has usually had him working on mediocre-to-bad defenses (the exception being the time he spent working for defensive guru Gregg Williams in Buffalo). And “been around a long time” also does not equate to him being competent at his job of coaching d-line…there are plenty of coaches who are inept and stay in the league because of who they know.
If you want to figure out whether Krumrie’s a good coach or not, then you should ask this question…“How many good defensive linemen have been developed under his tutelage as a defensive line coach?” I’m suspecting that the list will be a short one.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction
Just because there’s an appearance of nepotism, it doesn’t automatically follow that the hiring was done simply because of nepotism.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Gregg Williams, Paul Zimmerman, and Joe Gibbs apparently think Krumrie earned some respect. Run a google new search on the guy and you’ll see that Buffalo denied the ‘Skins even an opportunity to interview him, and the Dr. Z article is pretty flattering. Anyway, all we’re saying is that the guy has a reputation in league that’s a lot longer than since most of us got acquainted to him in hard knocks. If you think that the respect is undeserved so be it, but you gotta consider your sample size and relative information.
As for Gibbs, sure, no one’s saying the Shulas and Shottenheimers and even Todd Haley got where they were because of nepotism and aren’t talented. We’re just saying HC coach who’s a former defensive back then a lateral move to a team where his dad is a hero, he’s probably gonna be a great coach, but it sure looks like he’s still being groomed. Let him do something on his own and we’ll say letting him go was a mistake.
Ultimately, on the coaching personnel point, we’d just say that as fans we’re too far removed from the information to make intelligent evaluations of position coaches because of the massive amount of variables between the head coach and the results on the field.
Still, it doesn’t change the substance of our main point = the front seven will improve slightly at the cost of our DB play. No more Herm db coddling = freeing up some more blitz packages and more 1 on 1 coverage.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Apr 8, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Don't hold water," well let us unleash this aquaduct of truth...
"How many good defensive linemen have been developed under his tutelage as a defensive line coach?" I’m suspecting that the list will be a short one.
Well, we’ll start at Jared Allen and start counting backwards then?
*We have absolutely no proof Krumrie still is or ever was a good coach, see the too little info on pos. coaches, but we enjoy debunking the argument that he sucks just because he yells a lot and we had shitty penetration last year.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Apr 8, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So
Are we then giving Krumrie credit for the 20 sacks Allen got in the two years before Krumrie worked for the Chiefs?
Allen was already a good pass-rusher before Krumrie showed up. So where are his other success stories? How about Tamba Hali, who’s gone backwards every year since he got here? How about Tank Tyler and Turk McBride…two first day picks who’ve done nothing in two years. I’m assuming that those players sufficiently weather Krumrie’s evaluative slap-drill since the Chiefs saw fit to spend high draft picks on them while Krumrie was here…how have they worked out so far?
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
As For Coaches
Gregg Williams, Paul Zimmerman, and Joe Gibbs apparently think Krumrie earned some respect.
And everyone thinks that Wade Phillips is a hell of a guy, even though his team came down around his ears last year when he wouldn’t say boo to Terrell Owens.
Nice words by other coaches mean dick…how many of those guys brought Krumrie back for a second go-around on their staffs? If they didn’t see fit to take him on-staff again, I’d say that’s a pretty good indication of what they really think of his skills.
sure, no one’s saying the Shulas and Shottenheimers and even Todd Haley got where they were because of nepotism and aren’t talented.
I’m saying that. :) All Schottenheimers except Marty got to where they are through nepotism (although Brian has capitalized on it). All Shulas except Don are untalented head coaches and got their jobs largely through nepotism. Haley got his job through cronyism more than nepotism, but we’ll see soon enough whether he’s talented or untalented.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
how many of those guys brought Krumrie back for a second go-around on their staffs?
That’s precisely what Gregg Williams was trying to do when he went from Buffalo to the Redskins, but apparently Buffalo thought highly enough of Krumrie to deny Washington the right to contact him, and that, good sir, would mean “dick” by this criterion.
Also, not to pile on but, your – sometimes – boy (that’s a fair description, no?), Whitlock fell into the same trap – as probably a lot of the sports writers we came across – of writing a puff character piece praising his intensity (apologies for the incomplete archive version).
*Still maintaining that we’re not in the tank for Krumrie AT ALL, just advancing the point he apparently has a good rep around the league.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Apr 8, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also...
Buffalo was #2 overall defensively for 2 of the 3 years he was there and had Pat Williams. Can’t say much about Cinci other than there weren’t many defensive picks and Bruce Coslet and Ki-Jana Carter probably didn’t make things easier.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Apr 8, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Krumrie's History As Line Coach
Bengals ‘96-’02 Drafting History & Performance of Defensive Linemen
1996 DE Jevon Langford (4th round)…3.5 sacks in 6 seasons
1997 DE Reinard Wilson (1st round)…24 sacks in 6 seasons, best season 9 sacks (2001)
1997 DT Andre Purvis (5th round)…1 sack in 3 seasons
1997 DT William Carr (7th round)…no stats found
1998 DT Glen Steele (5th round)…3 sacks in 6 seasons
1999 DT Kelly Gregg (6th round)…dumped to practice squad in rookie year, signed by Eagles, 16.5 sacks in 8 seasons for Eagles and Ravens, never played for Bengals or Krumrie
2001 DE Justin Smith (1st round)…15 sacks in 2 years playing for Krumrie
2002 DE Joey Evans (7th round)…no stats found
So it appears that Krumrie turned out exactly one good defensive lineman during his time with the Bengals (Justin Smith) and never accomplished much else in seven years there.
Buffalo Bills 2003-2005
2003 DE Chris Kelsay (2nd round)…7 sacks in three seasons with Krumrie, 10 in three seasons without
2003 DT Lauvale Sape (6th round)…0 sacks and 7 tackles in 3 seasons with Krumrie
2004 DT Tim Anderson (3rd round)…1 sack, 42 tackles in 2 seasons with Krumrie
Pat Williams, by the way, had only 2.5 sacks in the 2 years he worked with Krumrie…his numbers were almost indistinguishable from the years before he worked with Krumrie. And he didn’t make any Pro Bowls until he left Buffalo.
Kansas City Chiefs 2006-current
Tamba Hali, Tank Tyler, Turk McBride, Glenn Dorsey, Brian Johnston…how many of these guys looked anything like good starters in their time under Krumrie’s tutelage? Hali comes closest and he’s gone backwards every year he’s played for Krumrie. Dorsey comes second closest and while he “led all rookie DTs in tackles”, 46 tackles and 1 sack on a porous defensive line that’s historically bad at pass defense is hardly anything to write home about. None of the others even looks like starting material at this point…at least not on an average defense.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well by your logic let's check out some DL geniuses
Tom Pratt. Never heard of him? Probably because he was last heard from coaching DL in Europe, but hey he drafter Warren Sapp (and was fired the next year).
Earl Leggett (1933-2008). Drafted Howie Long and Chester McGlockton, but being a raider plus the first part kinda rule him out.
Let’s see the Pat’s DL coach was basically birthed into coaching in the league through Belichick’s “summer coaching fellowship.”
The Titan’s DL coach, arguably the best track record in the league, bummed around 2nd tier schools (with the exception of Arkansas), the arena leagues and NFL Europe.
Ron Meeks just got fired as the Panther’s DL coach, yet their line looked fine to say the least last year, and the hired Brian Barker, who was last with Rams where he did squat.
Are these guys really getting their druthers on draft picks? Do you think if we drafted B.J. Raji (doubtful) and he blew the competition away (more doubtful) that Krumrie would deserve the credit or Pioli?
We’re just sayin, you’re out of your element Donnie. The only credible (pro mind you, yours is very credible on the AP of course) opinion criticizing Krumrie is Pete Carroll, and he’s pretty well demonstrated he can’t cut it at the NFL level.
As for the picks, we’ll give him a gimme on Wilson as a second year coach (not to mention this is Cinci in the ‘90s we’re talking about), after that he’s got one sub 5th rounder, who lo and behold goes on to be a pretty good DL. Move on to Buffalo, that 2nd rounder would look pretty bad if Buffalo didn’t have the second best D in the league in ’03 and ran a 3-4 slightly hampering those sack numbers, no?
Since then Hali’s a serviceable starter (admittedly a little disappointing for a 1st rounder), McBride actually looked like he was improving a lot until the injury last year (at least compared to tyler), and after watching Dorsey get double teamed all season we’re pretty dismissive of those calling him a bust.
Also, we’d like to point out that Scott Pioli played DEFENSIVE TACKLE and was a DEFENSIVE LINE COACH.
The all caps are because “I’m not going stop yelling because that would mean I lost the fight.”
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Apr 9, 2009 1:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just A Few Points
The only credible (pro mind you, yours is very credible on the AP of course) opinion criticizing Krumrie is Pete Carroll, and he’s pretty well demonstrated he can’t cut it at the NFL level.
As a head coach, yes he was a flop…but as a defensive coordinator he had three top ten defenses (in both points and yardage) in seven years with both the 49ers and the Jets. So while you wouldn’t want him in charge of your pro team, he’s quite capable of figuring out what is and isn’t a useful evaluative drill for defensive linemen by a coach and which is just stupidity. Speaking of which, exactly how well would you say his slap drill has worked as an evaluative tool in finding good linemen?
Are these guys really getting their druthers on draft picks? Do you think if we drafted B.J. Raji (doubtful) and he blew the competition away (more doubtful) that Krumrie would deserve the credit or Pioli?
If the Chiefs drafted Raji and he turned into a beast to end all beasts, I’d give Krumrie credit. And that would make two good linemen he’s developed in the pros in 14 years as a d-line coach.
As for drafting, all I know is that the Chiefs had Krumrie slapping people around for a reason, so they were apparently asking for his feedback on who was and wasn’t a capable lineman. Then they drafted a defensive lineman with a top 5 pick. A defensive lineman who got 1 sack and less than 50 tackles on a historically bad d-line. Which isn’t to say that he won’t someday become the beast we all hope he could be, but is to say that he hasn’t achieved anything yet in the pros to indicate we should hope to see him enshrined in Canton.
As for the picks, we’ll give him a gimme on Wilson as a second year coach (not to mention this is Cinci in the ‘90s we’re talking about), after that he’s got one sub 5th rounder, who lo and behold goes on to be a pretty good DL. Move on to Buffalo, that 2nd rounder would look pretty bad if Buffalo didn’t have the second best D in the league in ’03 and ran a 3-4 slightly hampering those sack numbers, no?
Since then Hali’s a serviceable starter (admittedly a little disappointing for a 1st rounder), McBride actually looked like he was improving a lot until the injury last year (at least compared to tyler), and after watching Dorsey get double teamed all season we’re pretty dismissive of those calling him a bust.
Actually Wilson was in Krumrie’s third year coaching defense…he just didn’t become the official line coach until after he did a year as an assistant in Cincinnati. And since his qualifications for being a line coach seem to stem almost entirely from his playing career, I’m not giving him a gimme in his third year on the job. And wouldn’t you think that Krumrie, as defensive line coach, would be able to tell that Kelly Gregg was capable of being a good starter and figure that maybe they could use the guy on the active roster instead of the practice squad…especially on a rushing defense that gave up 1700 yards and 22 TDs that year (and ranked near the bottom of the league in overall defense)?
As for Hali, he was a serviceable starter his rookie year, then he regressed every year thereafter. His performance last year wasn’t remotely acceptable for a third year pro drafted in the first round. Whatever improvements McBride may have showed last year were reflected in neither the stats nor the team’s performance. The Chiefs were a bad defensive team to start the year, they were bad in the middle and they were bad when they finished and McBride was a much a non-factor in their pass rush as everyone else (0 sacks), which is a problem when you put him in the RDE position.
A
lso, we’d like to point out that Scott Pioli played DEFENSIVE TACKLE and was a DEFENSIVE LINE COACH
Great…I wish he was coaching this year’s line too. :) Pioli pulling double duty with that job and GM would sit better with me than leaving Krumrie there.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 9, 2009 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're still arguing from the negative and lack of information
The strongest argument we have is that he was brought in to work our DL’s at the combine last year. Meaning 32 teams and now Scott Pioli have found him to be an effective evaluator of talent.
Still waiting for any opinion other than Pete Carroll’s (who was originally a defensive backs coach).
As to the drafts, we still think it’s ludicrous that you want to put responsiblity for every DL player chosen solely on the DL coach. They’re not the one ultimately pulling the trigger and you know that. Even so, Dorsey and Hali beat the hell out of whoever drafted Ryan Sims and Junior Siavii.
As for Dorsey, he put up almost twice as many tackles as Warren Sapp’s rookie year. Our defense was ridiculously conservative last year, there were times we looked like we were in a prevent defense in the first half… trailing! If your LB corp sucks and are spending most downs in coverage and at least one of your front four is woefully inadequate: Edwards or Boone, and you’ve shown zero blitzes for a whole quarter, yeah, your D-line is gonna look rough.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Apr 9, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What the KC defense lacks...
It’s more about desire, attitude, leadership, and a mean streak than it is about ability. I do not doubt Dorsey, McBride, Tank, Flowers, Carr, DJ, or Pollard’s ability. They are physically gifted players that are more than capable of handling the individual tasks that are assigned to them.
The defense, however, severly lacks in attitude, fire, and leadership. There were times last season when the defense looked GREAT for a quarter here or there. During those flashes the defense always looked energetic, fired up, and just plain mean. Unfortunitly, most of the time they looked flat, lazy, and bored. They were individually goinig through the motions with no accountability to the rest of the defense.
There was NO leadership on the field lighting a fire in the belly of the unit. There was no mean streak. The defense didn’t look energetic and didn’t play with attitude. They played like a team that was hoping not to get beat instead of playing like a team trying to physically dominate the opponent.
The LB position was the obvious glaring hole on the unit. Stuffing the run game through the middle is just as much about desire and fire as it is about ability. You have to WANT it. You have to meet the RB straight up across the middle KNOWING that you aren’t going to give an inch. You have to have attitude and the desire to PUNISH the runner for even daring to try to run it through your gap. The team needs physically domionating LB’s that take it personally when anyone tries to push the ball through their territory.
You just simply cannot stop the run without the fire and desire to want to physically dominate the runner. It’s not enough to play your gap, read the play and bounce it to the inside, and put youself in position to make a tackle. You have to have a killer instinct on the field. You have to scream and yell and fire up your defense. You have to plant your feet in the dirt and refuse to give a single inch.
It takes a special kind of player to play with that fire and to make that attitude contagious. If you get beat you have step back up to the line the next play and hit the next guy even harder. A smart player that can read and call the defense will never be enough to dominate a run game. Without fire, attitude, physical explosiveness, and yes – the kind of mean streak that makes you want to hurt anyone that tries to make a fool of you the defense will never be anything more than average.
The team NEEDS a Ray Lewis, a Junior Seau, a Dick Budkis, a Mike Singletary, a player of that mold. No matter who is on your coaching staff they will never be able to give a defense that kind of attitude on the field. You’ve got to have a player that takes it pesonal every time he gives up even one yard through his gap. You’ve got to have a guy ON THE FIELD with that kind of fire that motivates the rest of the squad.
It all starts with dominating the run game at the point of attack. The entire defense’s production branches out from that point. If the Chiefs ever want to get back to being a squad that the other team fears they simply MUST find the guy that can anchor the middle of the field and proclaim, “This is MY field. No one gains an inch unless I say so.” Or for the LotR fans out there, “You Shall Not Pass!”
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Apr 8, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I Doubt Tyler's And McBride's Abilities
After two years in the league, they’ve displayed exactly dick for production in games that count. As for DJ, I think he’s a solid linebacker, but “above average” is probably his ceiling. He hasn’t produced like a star in four years and I don’t think he’ll start now no matter how high “Madden” rates him.
Jury’s out on Dorsey, but I don’t like his chances of thriving with the switch in scheme. The secondary players are all fine, though…although there are certainly flaws in Pollard’s game that need correcting (and, to his credit, he’s shown improvement every year on many of his weaknesses).
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This year is DJ
"...said he could'nt go on the American way"
by The Steel City on Apr 8, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
Seems like only last year I was hearing that…oh right, because it was last year. :)
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree with individual your "star power" or "dominate production" assessment
However, having a star at every position is not what makes a good defense. Having a leader that pulls 11 guys together and lights a fire under their asses encouraging them to hold themselves accountable for their own individual role is what give a defense the attitude that breeds production. That leader has to emerge from a “run stopping” position, because stopping the run game means physical dominance and a smash mouth, hard hitting, refuse to give an inch is exactly what give the defense the attitude it needs to win.
As long as they play as 11 guys with no fire, no attitude, and no accountability to the rest of the team it doesn’t matter which 11 guys you put on the field. Without the leader they will remain lost.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Apr 8, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leaders Are Nice
Leaders + talent are even nicer, because even the best leader probably isn’t going to turn a scrub into an All-Pro. Unfortunately I think the Chiefs D is short in both departments.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed Crawford......
Those guys were fun to watch on Hard Knocks, but that is not gettin it done on the field. I watched half of last season’s games yesterday, Tank and Turk are both getting pushed around the majority of the time they are onscreen.
by Hail2DaChiefs on Apr 8, 2009 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When The Chiefs Get Dominated On Both Rushing And Passing Defense
And fans keep talking about the “talent” the players have, that’s a pretty good sign that the fans are looking at those players’ talent through rose-colored glasses.
Personally, I’d love to see Tank and Turk take off and dominate this year. The fan in me hopes it will happen. The realist in me, however, looks at their production, sees that they have the same line coach as last year and says that it ain’t gonna happen.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.
by UCrawford on Apr 8, 2009 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ooopes** THis year is DJ's last year to prove himself.
The last couple years can be blamed on a number of things, but now that he is where he is, and there is a new and very competent regime in town, Its make or break time.
"...said he could'nt go on the American way"
by The Steel City on Apr 8, 2009 12:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Its hard to sack the QB when he hands it off everytime!
If you stop the run the QB will have no other choice but try to pass. But if you can run all over a team then why not. I say run stopping outweighs trying to get a pass rusher….because no matter how good the pass rusher is he will be ineffective trying to run down the RB every play.
Go Chiefs!!
by Matt_Grbac on Apr 8, 2009 12:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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