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Some News on the Chiefs Defensive Scheme, Personnel

Nfl_dorsey_580_medium T_tyler_070823_ia_medium Tambahalirun_medium_medium

 

Yesterday we told you about some rumors floating around that the Kansas City Chiefs were ready to tentatively pencil in Tank Tyler as the nose tackle in the new 3-4 defense.  Those rumors were confirmed by DeMarcus "Tank" Tyler in an interview on Sirius Satellite Radio yesterday.

The Chiefs are holding a meeting today where they'll discuss schemes and personnel so stay tuned for more information.  Here are a few things Tank talked about in his interview.

Tank as the Nose and Dorsey in a Three Technique

Tyler said the Chiefs were indeed looking at him to be the nose tackle.  However, in a sign that a hybrid 3-4/4-3 will be utilized he also mentioned that Glenn Dorsey will continue to play the three technique on the defensive line.  This means that Dorsey wouldn't be lining up straight over center like Tank would.

This isn't necessarily set in stone either.  But remember, just a few short weeks ago Todd Haley said he sees Dorsey in an "attacking" role (ala three technique).

A three technique is expected to be more athletic and get into the backfield whereas a nose tackle is expected to take on the center and the strong side guard and essentially clog the middle.

(Note: Maybe some of you better versed in the technical aspects of the defensive line can help explain how Tyler and Dorsey would coexist in a scheme like this)

Defensive Ends Moving to Linebacker

In a move that we expected, he also said the defensive ends would be moving to linebacker.  The question is, however, which defensive ends?

Todd Haley has already said Tamba Hali (6'2", 265 pounds) would likely be utilized exclusively as a rusher on passing downs meaning he'll be an outside linebacker.

Brian Johnston (6'5", 276 pounds) can provide depth on the line as well.  His 40-yard dash time (4.66) would have been 4th best for ends over 260 pounds had he been invited to the NFL Combine so the athleticism is there to give him a look see as an outside linebacker.  In my view, however, he's an end in the 3-4 defense.

The future of Turk McBride is unclear.  He played end and tackle while at the University of Tennessee (Go Vols!) but has played end in his brief, injury riddled career in the pros.  At 6'4" and 285 pounds he seems to have the size to be an end in the 3-4 but not necessarily the speed as an outside 'backer (though these numbers are from the NFL Combine two years ago).  He'll be an interesting project this offseason.

***

Not much in the way of new news with Tyler's interview.  More of a vague reference by a player on things we've been speculating on for some time now.

The Chiefs will have meetings to discuss personnel and scheme today so make sure you check back today.

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Not gonna lie

I’ve had a mancrush on Brian Johnston since we drafted him. I want him to be the next Jared Allen so badly. I really hope he steps up this year because it would save us a lot of DE searching.

by Vince D on Apr 14, 2009 10:08 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Yeah

Click that link on him. He woulda been a top performer at the Combine if he were invited.

by Joel Thorman on Apr 14, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Ahh I want him to start so badly

Why do you torture me like this, Brian Johnston?

by Vince D on Apr 14, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was really excited we drafted him too, although I thought he was going to be a better 3-4 prospect. Maybe Pioli was making Herm draft Johnston back then… mailing CP/Herm news clippings about Johnston anonymously….

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

That article sounded great.

by Reno_Chief on Apr 14, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He is the man

I saw him in OP over the holidays and he was looking crazy skinny. I had the balls to go talk to him and he explained the very odd injury that put him on IR, even showed me his scar from surgery (something to do with his calf). Anyway, he said he would be ready and was looking forward competing for a spot next season.

"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week."

by bigbe on Apr 14, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

By the way, he should be a fan favorite

Talked with me and a friend for at least 20 min when he really didn’t have to. Very professional yet down to earth guy, hope he does well.

"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week."

by bigbe on Apr 14, 2009 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sounds Good

Well here’s how I see the “D” thus far

DE-Turk McBride NT- Tank Tyler DE- Boone

LB- Hali LB-Vrabel LB- Curry??? LB- Johnson

CB- Flowers CB- Carr

SS- Pollard FS – Paige

I LIKE IT A LOT!!!!!

South Side D

by doriang03 on Apr 14, 2009 10:19 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Zack Thomas instead of Curry. I’m excited to see Pollard as a blitzing type SS. Hopefully Haley remembers how Zona uses Adrian Wilson and starts doing that with Pollard…

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and Dorsey as a DE. Then you bring one of the OLB’s down to the line and blitz them

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I do agree

But using copyrighted photos from Gizmodo is a felony.lol just kidding i saw it on there yesterday thought it was funny it was on here too

by brandon181062 on Apr 14, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

AGREE

Boone at anything but backup NT = dumb

"A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week."

by bigbe on Apr 14, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I say no to

Boone on the DE…id just keep him at DT as a backup or for special situations.

by DT58forever on Apr 14, 2009 10:30 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think you are wrong about the DEs and LBs

I think Johnston will get the nod over Boone and Zach Thomas will be a starter at LB.
I don’t think we can speculate about Curry at this time. I am not ruling it out but, he is not on the roster yet.
Also, Hali may come in as a pass rush specialist on obvious passing downs so, if we do draft curry, he would be penciled in as a starter and Hali would come in for special situations.
Either way, our defense is starting to look a little better.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Apr 14, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I've Got To Say That This Sounds Promising

Looks like the coaching staff is trying to tailor the gameplan to the skill sets of their players…which is a lot better than what Herm did last year and what’s been speculated on.

And if Tyler can be productive in that role, then we’re not in horrible shape on defense for the year. But that’s still a big if, especially with the same line coach from last year in charge.

Predictions for 2009

1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.
3. Maurice Carthon will be the most hated man on the Chiefs' coaching staff within two years.

by UCrawford on Apr 14, 2009 10:34 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If Hali can successfully become a rush linebacker

that would be huge for us. Hali wouldn’t be a bust and we’d fill a huge need. Here’s hoping. That said, Hali-Vrabel-Thomas-Johnson eliminates the need to draft Curry although we should still take a linebacker later.

Also, Dorsey-Tyler-Johnston could be huge. McBride-Edwards-Boone would be solid depth. I really think we could make the 3-4 work.

by Vince D on Apr 14, 2009 10:38 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hali is not an every down OLB.

He doens’t have the coverage skills. He would be a 3rd down/obvious passing situation pure pass rusher at OLB. Although I do hope he can fill that role, nothing about his pass rush skills that he has shown so far leads me to believe he would be a superstar in that position.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's what I said pretty much...

I agree with you Tex. I still think there has to be a strong rush from the right side to make Hali effective.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Apr 14, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I keep forgetting about him. Maybe we won’t be drafting Curry after all. I mean, we have Thomas, Johnson, Hali, Williams, Beisel at LB right now… how many LB’s do 3-4 teams carry on their roster?

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In most cases

you want to have a backup for every position. We would need at least 6 LBs for a 3-4 scheme. 4 starters, 1 reserve ILB, and 1 reserve OLB. That number increases if you want to have pure pass-rush players since they can’t necessarily be trusted to fill in if a starter at OLB goes down. So, keeping 1 pass-rush LB pushes our needs up to 7 total.

by Chiefs4Life on Apr 14, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Missed some (but some of these guys are scrubs):

Vrabel, Weston Dacus, Curtis Gatewood (who?), Corey Mays, Darrell Robertson

That’s a total of 10 LB’s on our team right now. Miami (a 3-4 team) has 11. Do we really draft Curry to even out to 11?

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That makes it look a lot less like we will be taking Curry.

With haleys obsession with WRs I am thinking more and more like we will either get Crabtree ( I hope not) or trade down a few spots and get Maclin ( I hope so)
Especially if they find a way to trade Gonzo.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Apr 14, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maclin is terrible

He is glass. He will get destroyed in the NFL. Crabtree is the real deal. I would be really upset if we took Maclin. The only thing that would make me hesitate on Crabtree is the injury, but if he’s healthy, he’d be a perfect receiver to put opposite Bowe.

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude, now you are hurting me...

I would be okay with Crabtree if there werent so many question marks regarding his attitude. He looks like another TO to me.
Maclin on the other hand is the MAN! I have watched him for the last few years playing with Mizzou. He has the best hands of any WR in the draft this year. Solid routes, great hands, and his contribution on special teams are HUGE.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Apr 14, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not exactly the place for it...

…but I’d rather have Heyward-Bey. Late round (read: cheaper), physical specimen, and ridiculously fast for his size.

"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris

by KaloPhoenix on Apr 14, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Heyward-Bey is going to be awesome. Maclin is going to get broken in the NFL.

2006: Knee Injury
2008: Ankle Injury
2009: Knee Injury at the freaking COMBINE!

Maclin=Glass

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's predraft, precamp, preseason

The number of LB’s or any onther position on the roster atm is meaningless. We’re allowed 80 players on the roster, and 30 of those are nothing but camp fodder. We haven’t even started mandatory team work outs yet. All the Chiefs have done is lift some weights and have a couple meetings. After everyone reports to camp you will see that some of those guys are just on the roster to act as tackling dummies.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, good point.

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

We need 12-14 LB's to start camp

and the LB’s fill well on special teams

you don't have to win and you don't need to fight. Supertramp

by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 14, 2009 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would hope for at least 2 lb's in draft

and 2 -3 more as UDFA

you don't have to win and you don't need to fight. Supertramp

by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 14, 2009 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even if it's not a huge impact

It’s still probably an upgrade over what we had.

by Joel Thorman on Apr 14, 2009 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey wait a second....

Dorsey will be a defensive end for sure in place of McBride or Johnston in the 3/4. I see it more like this.

D-line: Dorsey DE- Tyler NT- Mcbride or Johnston DE

LBs: Vrabel, Thomas, DJ, Hali or Curry

CBs: Flowers and Carr

Safeties: Page and Pollard

Chiefs D is looking better all the time.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Apr 14, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's how I see it too

Of course, that’s before the draft too :D

by Vince D on Apr 14, 2009 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about Demorrio Williams? He has that huge speed (but not the size) for our LB position. Is his pass rushing any good? I can’t remember the Chiefs sending him blitzing at all last year…

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No Dorsey will play the DT

That would give him the most chance of making an impact in the 3-4 under/4-3 under

you don't have to win and you don't need to fight. Supertramp

by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 14, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

COOOORRRRRNNNN

Who else believes that Sirius radio payed Tank in corn to interview with them?

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

hahaha

Hard Knocks reference ftw!

by stag on Apr 14, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Man, how exciting was that season before the actual season…Hard Knocks was so sweet….

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A lot of people forget

when Babin was drafted by the Texans he played LOLB in their 3-4. While I’m skeptical Hali can make the transition, I think Babin (providing he’s retained) & Johnston would be good depth at OLB

by KansasCityShuffle on Apr 14, 2009 10:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I am probably the lone wolf on this one but...

I thought Babin had some pretty good flashes last year. I have no problem with the Chiefs retaining him.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Apr 14, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You are the lone wolf.

Remember when he had two hands on Chad Pennington and didn’t get a tackle somehow?

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Babin is overrated (and he’s considered a bust by most). He was terrible last year for us, and I don’t want him to make it past spring training (unless, of course, he somehow plays better for once)

by EyePod on Apr 14, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you seriously watch Chiefs football last season?

I would say Babin was one of our top FA acquisitions last season. He played very well and the fact you say “terrible” leaves me to believe

A)you didn’t watch many games

or

B)you have a personal vindetta against him

by KansasCityShuffle on Apr 14, 2009 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Tyler is right

we most definitely are NOT going full blown 3-4 next season (with the acquisition of Vrabel and then Thomas, I thought we might just bite the bullet and go 3-4, period)

But this

Tyler said the Chiefs were indeed looking at him to be the nose tackle. However, in a sign that a hybrid 3-4/4-3 he also mentioned that Glenn Dorsey will continue to play the three technique on the defensive line. This means that Dorsey wouldn’t be lining up straight over center like Tank would.

means there are going to be times when we have 4 linemen – it’s the only way to have Tank in the 1-tech and Dorsey in the 3-tech at the same time.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 11:22 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'll add

I’ve been rooting for Tank since we drafted him – I really hope playing nose tackle allows him to show his strengths (one of which, amazingly, is his strength =) )

He’s built like a Pro-Bowl Nose Tackle…now let’s see if he can grow into one.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um. Running Clancy Penderghast's 43 under hybrid would put Tank in a 1 tech and Dorsey in a 3 at the same time.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not exactly.

in a 3-4 you can have:

the NT line up over center as a 2-gap player
to the strongside (usually) you have a 5 technique end who lines head up over the tackle .
to the weakside (usually) you have a 3 technique tackle who plays over the guards outside shoulder.

This give you an unbalanced three man line, which is where the linebackers come in. the weakside OLB is your rusher (where Tamba Hali fits in). Because you don’t have an end on that side, the outside linebacker is 1-on-1 with t the OT and is like a stand-up end.

If your 3 technique tackle is penetrating, he is occupying the OG, Leaving the WILB free to chase and tackle. This allows you to have rush the OLB like an end because the WILB is flowing to the ball and will help with contain. The SILB is like an extra lineman, if your NT isn’t occupying two blockers, the SILB will have to take on the other OG on running downs. (this is the Larry Foote role with the Steelers, or Levon Kirkland back in the day).

On the strong side, if your 5 technique end is a beast he’ll require attention from the tackle and tight end, and allow the outside OLB more flexibility in the scheme.

That’s my long way of saying that an NT and 3 Tech DT can be in the formation.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes!

Thanks for the info…I’m not up on the technical aspects of the positions like you (and PVC) so I appreciate the info.

by Joel Thorman on Apr 14, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hey primetime

How can I upload pictures? I have a diagram of what an unbalanced 3-4 looks like.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Upload it to a free imagine hosting site

Like image shack or something like that. Then copy the URL in the image and click the tree looking thing above this comment box and paste the URL there. Make sense? Let me know.

by Joel Thorman on Apr 14, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you.... but I'd just like to point out...
the NT line up over center as a 2-gap player

That would be a 0 technique NT, not a 1 tech. You could do the exact same thing and run a 1 tech strong side or weak side in the A gap, see: “the 43 under” but gonna get nitpicky (which apparently I am) lining straight up on the center as a 2 gapper makes the NT a 0 tech. You line the NT up in a 1 teach (one of the A gaps) and leave the other A gap to be squashed smaller by your 3 tech taking on a double pushing tword the nose and giving the gap responcibility of that A gap to the ILB.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think I said the NT was a 1 tech?

I see what your saying with the NT filling an A gap and the DT crashing down on the guard on the other side, but that wasn’t what I was saying.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Then I must have read it wrong...

PVC said :

it’s the only way to have Tank in the 1-tech and Dorsey in the 3-tech at the same time.

And you responded with:

in a 3-4 you can have:
the NT line up over center as a 2-gap player
to the strongside (usually) you have a 5 technique end who lines head up over the tackle .
to the weakside (usually) you have a 3 technique tackle who plays over the guards outside shoulder.

It’s obvious that you know your tech’s and your gap responcibilities. I was just being a nitpicky ass be pointing out that your outline didn’t refute PVC’s statement. =P

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

TC, PVC and RN

You all need to get together and write a FanPost on this. Thanks for the good info.

by Joel Thorman on Apr 14, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm really adding more confusion than help

but I’d be glad to contribute.

TC and RN, you can reach me at marleysdaddy@gmail.com

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes!

I’ve gotta admit…any time people are talking technique this, or lining up here, etc I have to go look it up. It would be very helpful to have a nice reference page on what all this means and how it affects the Chiefs and their personnel.

by Joel Thorman on Apr 14, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

No, I read it wrong, I missed the part at the bottom or PVCs

Post that put Tank in the 1 tech. I just red it too fast.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the NT is over center as a 2-gap player

he wouldn’t be a 1-tech, would he? (he’d be a zero, right?)

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

right

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

However

Running Clancy Penderghast’s 43 under hybrid would put Tank in a 1 tech and Dorsey in a 3 at the same time.

And that’s pretty much what RedNose described in his example of running an offset line to one side, while the LB’s offset the other direction. That double offset with a pure rusher to one side (Predator) is the 43 under. It puts the NT in a 1 tech and one of the DE’s in a 3 tech on the field at the same time.

That’s what RedNose was driving at.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Danke!

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see a weakness in that drawing

if the DT doesn’t command a double team, then the LT can deal with the OLB and that leaves a HUGE hole on the weakside (especially if it is a counter play, and the ILB on the left gets pulled too far inside (to the right)

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That is correct

If the DT doesn’t do his job, AND the Predator is ineffective, AND the ILB over persues the inside there is a hole. hehe
But you could say that about any defensive system in one way or another.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly

That’s why the DT and OLB need to be penetrators and the ILB has to have some speed and a really good nose for the ball. That’s why they say great players make great schemes.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

typos are good for the soul.

they keep you humble

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

3 technique

It goes along with what I’ve read about the Cards version on the 3-4. Then too a team may be in their base defense half the time. They will have nickel and dime situations, pass rush linemen, short yardage, some 4-3…

by FrankPitts on Apr 14, 2009 11:55 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think Dorsey fits

the bill for a 3-technique. He would line up between the guard and tackle and primarily be responsible for crashing into the backfield and causing havoc. I think that fits the Dorsey we saw at LSU much better than the cover 2 scheme Herm used.

by Chiefs4Life on Apr 14, 2009 12:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The cover 2 didn't affect Dorsey

putting him in a 2-tech position on the guard, so he could keep the guard off of our ridiculously horrible linebacking corp is what affected Dorsey last season – I don’t know how many times I saw Dorsey lined up directly over the guard, and just sit there and eat G/C or G/T double-teams all freakin’ day.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

THe problem was never Dorsey or Tank playing DT’s it was the god awful disasters that we kept putting on the field at MLB and Will Backer that were never able to gap protect where they were supposed to. The LB’s over pursued and were out of position at least 60% of the time, and the rest of the time they just plain got beat at the point of attack because they had no fire in their belly. Matter of fact, the whole defense had no fire. The 2008 Chiefs LB’s were one of the most lackadazical, confuse looking, and just plain lousy group of LB’s i’ve ever seen on a pro football team.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I think that made our d-line look less productive than it truly was

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No doubt

I’ve argued that our front four weren’t all that bad last year (contrary to the stats), its just they had zero help from our linebackers. That was suppose to be Gunther’s deparment thats why I’m not buying he’s going turn around Detroit’s D.

by KansasCityShuffle on Apr 14, 2009 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It looks like Pioli and Haley saw the same thing

Considering our signing of LB’s this off-season and our lack of movement on DL.
Curry at Mike or Everette/Jackson at RDE would be an improvement.
Pair up a strong outside rush with Dorsey at 3 Tech should drive a LT crazy.
If Curry is drafted and plays Mike LB who do you propose other than Robinson/Babin as
that RDE or as the Predator that we can staff the Right side with to prevent them running at the Right and killing us?

you don't have to win and you don't need to fight. Supertramp

by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 14, 2009 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Paul Kruger

if he’s there in the 3rd… done…. RDE/OLB

by stagdsp on Apr 15, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It was my understanding that

he lined up in the 2-tech for a 2-gap responsibility to free the linebackers up to play the cover 2 (that was a silly amount of 2s in one sentence). So the cover 2 scheme placed Dorsey in the wrong position.

by Chiefs4Life on Apr 14, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that's the case

I thought the Cover 2 referred only to the 2-deep zone of the safeties (i.e. each safety is responsible for one half of the field from a point X yards from the line of scrimmage all the way to the endzone)

Within that Cover 2 shell, the CB’s and LB’s could be in zone coverage, man coverage, a blend of both, blitzing here or there, etc.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What I mean

is that in Herm’s particular brand of a Cover 2 scheme, the LBs had a heavy burden of responsibility. They were considered the primary play-makers so it was necessary for the D linemen to eat double-teams as much as possible to leave the LBs free to roam the field. That put Dorsey in the 2-tech, which didn’t fit his skill set very well, or justify paying a guy top 5 money to be a hole-plugger.

by Chiefs4Life on Apr 14, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ah

I understand

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

THe cover 2 didn't place Dorsey in the wrong position..

Gunthar Cunningham did.
Gunthar took the responcibility as the LB coach as well as the DC precisely because the LB’s he put on the field we so poor. Gunthar was smart enough to realize that they were not going to be able to play a classic cover 2 because the cover 2 puts such high demand on the MLB. In a classic cover 2 the MLB has to float around a HUGE area in the center of the field as well as play gap protection on the line. The Chiefs had been searching for a true cover 2 MLB defensive leader for YEARS. They have not found one yet. There was no player on the Chiefs D with the brains to call the defense, the athletic ability to cover such a large area of the field in space, and the sheer power at the point of attack to stuff the run all rolled into one package.

So, Gunthar did the only thing he really could given the talent he had on the team. Herm Edewards was NOT going to let GUnny run a defense that played to the strengths of the players because he was going to run the cover 2, period. Given that GUnny could not change the scheme, he tried to hide/cover the obvious holes. He slid Dorsey over to a 2 gap player to try and take the run coverage responcibility away from the MLB and shift it outside to the WIll/Sam backers.

I can only assume that he did this to try to ease the pressure on the MLB. After doing that the MLB could concentrate on playing coverage. At the same time the safeties tried to help out the MLB by sliding providing about 5-7 yards of additional coverage. Without getting too deep into coveragte responcibilites I’ll just say that the safeteis were sliding up closer to the line in their zone coverage than a classic cover 2 would call for.

Moving the Tackles and sliding the safeteis zone coverage area were all supposed to do one thing….. shrink the vast amount of responcibility that a cover 2 MLB actually has. The problem is, it didn’t work. The Sam and WIll backers had to play more run support and couldn’t drop back into coverage as soon as they would have liked to, and they failed to contain the gaps at the point of attack. The safeties, in trying to protect the MLB, were not free to play any “confusing” blitzing schemes that could have kept the offense off balance, and by forcing the safeties into more center of the field coverage at least 1 of them had to delay going to the aid of a CB in zone coverage until the MLB (and his slow ass, no coverage skills feet and hips) could get back into position to guard the underneath routes.

In short… Our LB’s sucked, especially in the middle. They didn’t have the athleticism to play the cover 2, and Gunthars’ dumb ass excuse for a band-aid did more harm than good.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When Pat Thomas is your starting MLB

something is seriously wrong.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

When Pat Thomas is on your opening day roster

instead of your practive squad… there is something wrong

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nothing was wrong with Pat Thomas

he was a weakside LB being forced to play Mike. Unsurprisingly he didn’t excel, like many of his predeccesors. After so many reoccurences I don’t fault the tools I begin to fault the carpenter

by KansasCityShuffle on Apr 14, 2009 7:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not buying it

I refuse to believe Gunther had zero say in what linebackers were on our team. In fact, its outright false because Boiman was a mid-season signing that was hailed as one of Gun’s boys. Gunther had plenty of time in KC and plenty of draft picks to get his shit together but he squandered nearly every opportunity. Look at Beisel, Fox, Fujita, & Mitchell who all under different coaching have achieved success. It’s no surprise DJ is a chronic underachiever in many fan’s eyes because look who has been his coach his entire career? I think our draft history is embarassing but I’m more of the mind nowadays that our scouting wasn’t so bad as much as it was our coaching. We’ve had talent just for the most part have been unable to develop it. I think Gunther is the worst offender of this and all his little ‘pet projects’ like Nap Harris, Pat Thomas, and even Mitchell were jokes. Your cutting Gun’s senile ass a little too much credit. Our LB’s sucked because their coaching sucked.

(And sorry to be the asshole, but ‘responibilities’ has no ‘C’ in it)

by KansasCityShuffle on Apr 14, 2009 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Just to be clear, in case you don't remember my history on AP...

I have never been shy of saying the Gunny Episode 2 (the re-hire) was the absolute worst defensive coaching mistake ever made by the Chiefs. I’m not at all sold on his ability as a DC. The league has changed a lot since his glory days of Episode 1, and he has not kept up with the shifting times. I blame Gunny for the awful state of our Defense the last few years as the #1 cause.

However, in what tiny amount of defense I will lay out for him:
Herm Edwards walked in the door with a 43 Cover 2 system and jammed it down Gunny’s throat. There was no getting around it. No matter what the abilities of our players were, we were going to run the 43 Cover 2.
Carl / Thurm / Vermeil / Herm / Gunny never managed to draft a single player with the skill, smarts , and ability to be a defensive leader at the MLB position. That fault does not sit squarely on Gunny’s shoulders, but he certainly shares the blame. He was, after all, the head coach at one point.

My point about Pat Thomas was not about him playing Will, it was that he started the season as the Mike. He never belonged as the Mike and it was a horrible move. Of course, to this day we still don’t have an every down Mike on the roster, and that can’t be blamed wholey on Gunny.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 15, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bravo

Sometimes you have to cover your flaws.
Was IT Gunthers fault? No
Peterson and Herm decided on players and scheme.
Did Gunther Bitch not in public!
Sometimes Mgmt screws the pooch.
I hope Pioli gets it right this time.
Now I see why you have such a like for Curry :)
I could not Imagine watching game after game seeing the same FUps.
It would make watch Ice Skating. LOL

you don't have to win and you don't need to fight. Supertramp

by Steve_Chiefs on Apr 14, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But you are right

he does need to be a 3-tech guy.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RedNose

I have a question about your long response earlier – if we did run the 3-4 like you schemed it, what would be the glaring weakness (every defense has one)?

It looks to me like on side of the line (weakside) is going to have a puny (relatively speaking) OLB at the point of attack on the line (since the guy who is technically the “DE” in that 3-4 is way inside in a 3-tech (Dorsey in our case)).

Wouldn’t that kind of unbalanced line be very wimpy against weakside runs, or god forbid, a counter trap? I’d hate to see what DJ would look like after the guard from the strongside of the line pulled weakside and steamrolled him.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 12:23 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Well, TexasChief might also have a good answer for this

but that’s where the role of the inside players is so important. If the 3 tech is hitting the gap, his sole purpose is backfield penetration without giving up that single gap. The WOLB is taking the outside shoulder of the OT and protecting outside contain. If he’s holding his ground, the WILB is either free to the ball carrier, taking on a lead back, or taking on a pulling guard. And if the guards pulling, that means the SILB is moving latterly to the weakside to pursue. The name of the game is someone has to beat their block or get upfield penetration fast.

If your NT is good, they can’t pull a guard because your NT is blowing up the Center and they need that guard to double team. If your 3 tech DT is penetrating all the time, they have to help him out with the centre or tackle, either way your WOLB or WILB will have a mismatch or a free shot at the ball carrier.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

RedNose is on point with his responce to you but...

Let me point out that in a 43 under hybrid (offset line, offset LB’s + a predator/jack) your LB’s are not really playing the standard roles of ILB/OLB. The scheme sets up a “predator/free floating jack” backer that actually has very little responcibility to the run game (Aside from the outside run to his side) and very little pass coverage responcibility (again, only that which comes through his gap). That OLB/Predator is basically a 43DE that plays 2-4 yards off the line of scrimmage. He plays tighter to the line than the rest of the LB’s, but further back than the linemen. His only real job is to rush the QB/RB in the backfield. (unless the defense calls for trickery by having him gap/cover while the CB/Safety plays the blitz). He’s a pass rusher.

The rest of the LB’s may as well change their position names from ILB/ILB/OLB to Will/Mike/Sam. They are going to play classice 43 LB roles. They will beplaying in the same kind of roles a cover 2 back plays in when the backfield is playing zone coverage, and more aggressivly when the backfield plays man to man. So you still need a beast of a player at MLB if you’re going to run a base-zone defense, even though you technically have 4 LB’s on the field.

Try to rethink your question taking into account RedNose’s points about the size/2 gap responcibility of the Linemen and with the knowledge that the roles of the LB’s are not classic 34 roles. Instead they are 43 roles. That should help you envision it.

P.S. : We still need a beast of a MLB that can play a large area of the field, handle the point of attack, call the defense, and play in coverage using a 43 under. - Zach Thomas is a nice transitional guy to teach, but we haven’t reduced our need for a Curry / Maleluga by a long shot.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So with our roster as of today

Would you see DJ as the WLB, Thomas/Beisel as the MLB, Vrabel as the SLB? With Hali in the Predator role that Bertrand Berry and Travis Laboy played for the Cards?

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, we've already tried everything we have a MLB with no success...

So Thomas would really have to be it. I’m SURE he has the smarts to call the D, and I think he has the fire in his belly to play the run, but I’m concerned about how much his legs have left in them to cover a large area of the field as an every down player.

Taking into account ONLY what we have on the team at this exact moment I’d probably say:

Will: DJ/Hali in obvious passing downs
MLB: Thomas/DJ in obvious passing downs
SLB: Vrabel
Predator: Robenson

But that set up worries me a bit. I wouldn’t want to count on Vrabel or Thomas to be every down players, and I don’t have a lot of faith in Hali. I believe we need a new young stud at MLB to share snaps and learn from Thomas so that Hali can share time with Vrabel and DJ can play as an every down LB. I’m also not sold on Robenson as Predator yet. I’d like to see more of him, so another young LB pass rusher specialist would be good to have there too.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crap, I did that backwards

SLB: Vrabel/Hali in passing downs
MLB: Thomas/DJ passing downs
WLB: DJ
Predator: Robertson

Still want a MLB so DJ can play every down at Weak
Still want a pure pass rusher to play preadator

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Would have to play Beisel or Demario Williams at WLB in passing situations

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Simple

trade our #3 to Philly, draft Everette Brown at 21 to be the predator, and James Laurainitis at 28 to be the MLB

If only it were that easy, right? =)

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like that trade

but don’t think Brown will be there at 21. How about OT Eben Britton at 21 and Connor Barwin at 28?

That leaves Z Thomas and Beisel at MLB for another year, or maybe you pick up a guy like Jasper Brinkley in the 3rd round with the idea that he’ll at least step into a 3rd down role as a rookie and full-time starter in his 2nd year.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think Hali could play anywhere but Predator in that DE

The Will backer will lineup mostly inside the tackles and has to be a sideline-sideline guy. That’s the role DJ will excel in. Vrabel is an over-tightend guy, no problem there for a couple of years. If Everette Brown or Orakpo was drafted as the predator then Hali might stay at strong side end, but that might be pushing him too much. I would love to see us trade down and get Mauluaga to play MLB and go with Hali as Predator, and Robinson as Strong End.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yea that wwas kind of the point of my alignment

DJ at the Will
Vrabel at teh Sam, but Hali comming in ONLY on passing downs to act as a pure rusher
DJ sliding to MLB on obvious passing downs purely for his speed as a coverage guy
Vrabel and Thomas off the field on obvious passing downs just due to age and lack of speed.

I’m really not sold on Hali at all in a 34./43under. Hell, im not even sold on Hali in a 43 but if im only allowed to use guys we already have on the roster then Hali gets put in to do one thing, and one thing only… move foreward and rush the QB.

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Apr 14, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Going by the Cardinals model (Which isn't nessarily a great model)

Hali is as good or better than Laboy and Berry who filled that role for them. They combined for 9 sacks which a Hali/Johston/Rookie? combo at predator should be able to fill.

DJ should be every bit the player that Dansby was when he got 5 sacks, 2 picks and a boat-load of tackles from the WLB spot. Dorsey should be every bit the player Darnell Dockett was from at the 3 technique. My biggest concerns for that front would be:

Can Tyler actually hold down the NT?
Who plays the 5 technique? Boone?

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

your concerns

Can Tyler actually hold down the NT? if he can’t, I don’t know who can.
Hopefully the Chiefs find out before the draft, and maybe pick up Sammie Lee Hill to come in and do it.

Who plays the 5 technique? Boone? I think this is Turk’s job to lose… all he has to do is bulk back up, set the edge and let the other guys make the big plays.

by stagdsp on Apr 14, 2009 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and yeah, Thomas/Beisel is not the answer on the inside.

Having a nice young thumper in the middle would be great.

by RedNose on Apr 14, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does

anyone else think that Jackson showed a lot of promise up front last year? The few times I saw him he was pushing the o-line at will.

by REMWHEN on Apr 14, 2009 2:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I liked him

in fact, I think I liked him at the Arby’s mini-camp last summer and was like “Who is this fat kid?”

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Apr 14, 2009 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Brian Johnston

He would be better as a LB in a 3-4 rather than a DE. He has speed and is more of a pass rusher rather than someone that demands the double team with strength . I think he can be a great LB with his speed he just needs playing time since he came from a small college.

I hope we trade down and get either 2 first from Philly or the donkies or trade with the Pats and get a 1st and some seconds. I hope we draft Everette Brown as OLB and RT Eben Britten and in the second we get DE Jarron Gilbert who would play the 5 technique.

Our starting D would look like this:
DE Gilbert and
DE Turk or Dorsey
NT Tank
OLB Brown and Vrabel
ILB would be Thomas and Johnson
Secondary would stay the same.

by Biggest Chiefs Fan on Apr 14, 2009 3:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I Called it!

Watch the Cards from last year and you will see how the Chiefs D is ran as a base. I wrote a post on 04/02/09 in which I explain why the Chiefs will run a 4-3 with a nose tackle as Arizona did last year. Read the post and understand.

How The (AFC) West Can Be Won

by bonesjackson on Apr 14, 2009 5:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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