Cassel a bigger risk than Stafford or Sanchez?

by PVChiefsfan on Mar 16, 2009 8:05 AM CDT Comment 68 comments

Michael Ash over at Warpaint Illustrated has written a very good article that makes an interesting case -

There’s no guarantee he’ll succeed outside New England. Cassel may be nothing but a flash in the pan. Maybe he was just the flavor of the month, a one-year wonder, a fluke.

But none of that is news to Pioli. By trading for Cassel when the Chiefs were in position to draft a top-rated quarterback, our new general manager hasn’t wasted any time putting himself in the line of fire.

By pulling the trigger on the trade, Pioli made it clear he believes Cassel is the Chiefs’ best option. Pioli is telling us that Cassel is better than Tyler Thigpen. More importantly, he’s telling us that no matter how good Matt Stafford or Mark Sanchez may turn out to be, Cassel will be better.

Pioli had a chance to draft a QB with a Top Five pick, and barring anything crazy happening in just over a month, he chose against that.

In terms of Pioli’s credibility, trading for Cassel may actually be a riskier move than taking a quarterback in the draft. It sounds silly to say adding a quarterback who’s faced real NFL defenses might be more of a gamble than adding a rookie, but consider everything Pioli has invested in this decision.

If Pioli can’t properly evaluate Cassel, a player he’s been around for the last four years, what does that say about his ability to judge NFL talent? If Cassel struggles at the start of the season, it’ll be no time at all before the usual suspects are out to declare Pioli a fraud and assert that Bill Belichick was the reason for all New England’s success.

While Cassel struggles, what if the one of the rookie quarterbacks starts for his team and plays the way Matt Ryan did last year? Hellfire and brimstone will be falling from the skies in Kansas City in no time.

When Ash puts it the way he does in this article, I see his point about Pioli and the choice of Cassel. And the more I think about it, the more I get excited

But none of that is news to Pioli either. So considering what he’s putting on the line with this move, how can you not at least be a little excited by the obvious confidence he has in Cassel? Pioli clearly believes Cassel was more than just a lucky system quarterback who was throwing to Randy Moss, and he’s practically staking his reputation on it.

The article also contains a brief discussion of the Broncos' descent into self-destruction, Raider-style (though it was written before Cutler requested a trade) followed by a short analysis of the Chiefs' new veteran leader - Mike Vrabel.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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Pioli's not

risking anything. He’s not even saying Cassel is going to be the starter. The fact is, this is a weak class of QB’s in this years draft. If Cassel pans out, great. If he doesn’t we’ve got Thigpen and I wouldn’t count Brodie Croyle out.

Maybe a FA will surface(not likely) but there’s always next year.

by choirboy on Mar 16, 2009 9:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

umn

if we gave up our first it would be a risk. But considering we got Mike Vrabel out of the trade, if Cassel doesn’t pan out we at least have some guaranteed value out of it.

Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.

by 808NaNz808 on Mar 16, 2009 9:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

+1

by Vince D on Mar 16, 2009 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cassel's A Risk

But not nearly the risk that Stafford or Sanchez are. Both have big question marks that haven’t gotten any smaller after the combines. Stafford’s inconsistency is an issue and Sanchez’s lack of experience as well (not to mention his coach’s very public reservations about his decision to leave early).

Predictions for 2009

1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
2. The Lions will draft Matt Stafford, the Rams will draft Jason Smith, and the Chiefs will draft either Aaron Curry or Eugene Monroe.

by UCrawford on Mar 16, 2009 10:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The Star has an article today

that claims that if Freeman had been surrounded by the talent that Stafford or Sanchez had, Freeman might be the #1 QB prospect…Mayock is now saying Freeman is a sure 1st rounder.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Mar 16, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not Sure About That

The kid made some really dumb decisions as QB and I’m not sure he’s a particularly mature player. I think he’s got good tools, but I think he’s a long way from being a pro starter. And that’s not what you want from a first round pick…you want a guy who’s less of a prospect who could start in a year or two.

Of course if the Jets draft him it won’t surprise me because, hey…it’s the Jets.

Predictions for 2009

by UCrawford on Mar 16, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Correction

you want a guy who’s less of a project who could start in a year or two.

Predictions for 2009

by UCrawford on Mar 16, 2009 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That STAR article seems silly

the level of talent he was surrounded with was less but the level of competition he had was not as severe as what USC or the SEC faces.

by Your_Moms_Boyfriend on Mar 16, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The rumor is if he is there for the Jets at 17 they will take him....

…but that sounds like draft deception really

by woodman212 on Mar 16, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Possibly

Though they are working him out. Who knows at this time of year.

by Joel Thorman on Mar 16, 2009 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yea...and everyone has begun saying deceptive crap...its a fun time lol

Especially if you hate the Broncs

by woodman212 on Mar 16, 2009 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+1

Pioli respects Pete Carrol a lot, as do I. If it looks like a bust, acts like a bust, and Carrol says it’s a bust… well then

Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.

by 808NaNz808 on Mar 16, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think Carroll was calling him a bust

I think it was more that he wanted a QB next season and thought he needed another year. I don’t think he was saying bust, but more that he’s a project at this point.

by Joel Thorman on Mar 16, 2009 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think .......

Coach Carrol just wanted another championship,and that’s the only reason he’s mad!

by CPT.Caveman on Mar 16, 2009 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

To clarify

I don’t think Pioli is taking a risk with Cassel…I think he knows exactly what he is getting, and I think he knows that what he is getting is better than Stafford or Sanchez will be in 3 years.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Mar 16, 2009 10:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

and right now for that matter

Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.

by 808NaNz808 on Mar 16, 2009 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Something just popped up in my thoughts

(actually that happens once or twice a week) anyways, with all the bloodshed being bandied about in Denver, what are the chances that Denver will try for Sanchez or Stafford in round 1 now? Better yet, trading up to get one of them?

"But what do I know, I'm AP's new assclown and I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"

by Lanier63 on Mar 16, 2009 10:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

If that does happen, I'll say this

when it comes to draft day wheelin’ and dealin’, we’ve got the equivalent of Yoda as our GM.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Mar 16, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lol

"But what do I know, I'm AP's new assclown and I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"

by Lanier63 on Mar 16, 2009 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think........

There’s a better chance they still go for cassel. Watch and see boys, McDaniels has a hard on for Cassel!

by CPT.Caveman on Mar 16, 2009 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no

by woodman212 on Mar 16, 2009 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cassel has already shown what he can do.

He also did it behind a suspect O-line. Pioli knows this kid and so does McDaniels and obviously, he wanted Cassel too cause he jeopardized the Donks realationship with their pro bowl QB to try to get Cassel. I am not worried about about Cassel, I am however worried about how we are going to improve the team around him. We need some help on the O-line and we are really bad on Defense. With some protection and a solid running game Cassel will be fine and he will only get better from here.
I know that I have been an advocate of focusing on the draft but, I would like to see some action in the FA market. I am kind of bummed about the Raiders signing Barnes.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Mar 16, 2009 10:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

My preference

I think if I have the choice of either:

A) Choosing a quarterback with one year of NFL starting experience + three additional years of tutelage under one of the smartest head coaches of our generation and a future HOF quarterback in Tom Brady, plus a veteran linebacker in Mike Vrabel, all at the cost of a high second round pick, or…

B) A kid coming straight out of college who could be costly with a #3 overall pick

I would choose A and view it as less of a risk.

by NESilver on Mar 16, 2009 10:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

haha

nicely put

Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.

by 808NaNz808 on Mar 16, 2009 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What about choice C..............

Trade cassel to denver for there 1st rd pick and cutler,then trade cutler to tampa for there 1st rd pick.Lets see that would give us #3-#12-#19 in the first round…………i like plan ©

by CPT.Caveman on Mar 16, 2009 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wishful thinking

Denver to give up a 1st round pick and Cutler, for Cassel? I can’t see that happening. Cutler can whine like a little girl all he wants to about a trade, but he’s still under contract. He’ll have to play eventually if Denver decides to keep him.

by NESilver on Mar 16, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A risk????

Cassel is not much of a risk here people…we had thigpen…don’t get me wrong he played great in the pistol…but he didn’t win games…cassel on the other hand was the most sacked QB last season…look it up…on the patriots where all this talk about a great OL…not so great…my point is he took the hits and they still won 11 games…if we can bolster our OL and offer some protection and build up the running game again…we have actually have a chance to make the playoffs…I know it’s way too early for predictions, but denver is imploding…the raiders are the raiders and the chargers are on a downhill swing…we could win the division by default…all we really need is another offensive weapon of choice…maybe they could move thigpen to slot receiver…with his athleticism he could be our “wes welker” plus he could throw the ball on some trick plays…I can’t wait to see this project put onto the field of play…bring on the season!!!!

by Mister Skatterbrain on Mar 16, 2009 10:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

ouch

the verbal beating thats coming your away is hurting me already

Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.

by 808NaNz808 on Mar 16, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thigpen has a good chance

of being our solid #2, and maybe someday being a #1.
Yes, he played in the pistol, but Cassel played 70% of his snaps from the shotgun.
Even in a full 7 yard drop shotgun Cassel was the most sacked QB in the league. Conversely, Thigpen in a 3-4 yard dropback with less receiver talent to throw to was able to make things happen with his legs. I wouldn’t be so quick to write off Thigpen. Last year was the first time he ever stepped on the field as an NFL QB and he had a terrible OL to protect him. I believe the change to the pistol offense was more about giving a young inexperienced kid a chance to look down field behind a terrible OL that could not block for him as it was about his “inability” to play in a traditional pro set offense.

With an offseason as waiver/practice squad player that got taught nothing, got almost zero snaps, and was not even an afterthought as a player that would be on the field in Minnesota he stepped into a trial by fire starting role for the Chiefs and managed to play better than Brodie Croyle, Damon Huard, and Ingle Martin. In fact, his stats (aside from total wins) were even respectable compared to the other 31 starting QB’s in the league.

Don’t write the kid off yet. Keep it in the back of your mind that he played for the 4-12/2-14 Chiefs under a head coach that has failed on both teams he tried to manage. Before I moved the guy to a slot receiver I’d be working my ass off to develop Thigpen into an asset as a #2 guy that has the potential to step into a #1 role if needed.

BTW… I was going to comment on the fact that your entire reply appears to be one giant sentence seperated by “…” , but then i looked at your name. =)

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Mar 16, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree on Thigpen

down the rad do you think he will net us a 3rd in a trade?

Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.

by 808NaNz808 on Mar 16, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

*road

Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.

by 808NaNz808 on Mar 16, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really, I don't know

In order to get any trade value out of him someone would have to want him.
The only way anyone is going to want him is if he’s on the field where someone can evaluate him.
So, hoping that we can get trade value out of him is akin to hoping we end up with a hurt starter =(

The NFL is a brutal league. Maybe he will get another chance to develop, and maybe Cassel can pass on some wisdom to Tyler. I certainly think he could be something special given time to develop and snaps under center. As a number 2 he would get at least some snaps, so the best thing for him right now would probably be to stay on as the #2 for the Chiefs.

I just hope we don’t do something stupid like put him behind Brodie Croyle in the line up. Croyle has no place in KC and probably not in the NFL. The Chiefs can hire his wife as a cheerleader if some of you guys want her, but thats about it for the Croyle family in my eyes. (Personally I don’t see what you guys see in Mrs. Brodie Croyle. I think she appears to be semi-above average looking at best.)

The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw

by Texas Chief on Mar 16, 2009 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well put

still I hold hope that we can make a Sage Rosenfields like trade, trading a backup (who once got some significant playing time) and getting a fourth

Time is a great teacher... unfortunately it kills all it's pupils.

by 808NaNz808 on Mar 16, 2009 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They ............

Also had the #10 ranked D, what was the chiefs again?

by CPT.Caveman on Mar 16, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

bring em on...

I am not scared…I will defend my opinion till death…if I have too lol

by Mister Skatterbrain on Mar 16, 2009 10:51 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Here's a post I made awhile ago.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/3/13/795867/is-cassel-the-man

There are some good articles linked there about the potential of Cassel, and how he needs to grow as a QB to be successful. I’m not saying he will or he won’t, but I think he an Tyler Thigpen are about on the same level as a quarterback. Both teams implemented spread offenses to give both of them the best chance to succeed, and Cassel came out the victor in the W-L column. But his supporting cast on offense and defense helped him achieve that. The Pats ranked 10th in total defense last season

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Mar 16, 2009 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There is Always a risk....... but i would rather go with the guy with the NFL Snaps.....ya Know

by Jclawd on Mar 16, 2009 11:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not writing him off

don’t get me wrong…I wasn’t writing thigpen off, he was picking it up, but I’m saying we should have the best players on the field when we play. Obviously Pioli and Josh McDaniels know something about Cassel or it wouldn’t stir up so many problems in Denver. We brought him in to be the starter, sure they won’t come right out and say it, but that’s the plan. Thigpen will get stuck on the bench, why not use his talents somewhere else? That’s where my slot receiver comment was coming from. I don’t understand why we would bury him and not utilize the abilities he has…he can move, he can catch(true it only happened on one play) but the kid can play and I don’t want to see him go to a different team and light up the scoreboard. We could develop him as a #2 and also as a receiver, like Kordell Stewert, he could fill that role perfectly…BTW what kind of chief is in Texas anyways? Steers and Queers right?

by Mister Skatterbrain on Mar 16, 2009 11:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

As our friend NESilver stated

Cassel took a little time to develop some “pocket presence” and his sacks went down later in the year. He is WAY less risky than the rookies, and I believe his upside is every bit as good. Most importantly, I have complete trust in Pioli. He hasn’t stacked up all those executive of the year trophies for nothing. Keep the faith, baby.

Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are more pliable. Mark Twain

by Chiefho on Mar 16, 2009 12:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Cassel never developed pocket presence

New Englands offensive coordinator implemented the spread to give Cassel the best chance to succeed, much like Edwards/Gailey did for Thigpen

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Mar 16, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's false.

Sorry, but the difference is night and day when it comes to Cassel’s pocket presence from the beginning of the season towards the end. The spread is something the Patriots run a lot anyway (see 2007), but when the Patriots saw how comfortable and successful Cassel was running the shotgun during the Jets game, they felt it would be best to keep him there.

But to say he never developed pocket presence is simply not true. If you can watch any Patriots games from last year, I would suggest watching the first few games up until the Rams game, which is where he began to show improvement, and then compare it to the second Jets game or any of our late-season games (except for the season-ender in Buffalo, which was a run game because of the wind).

by NESilver on Mar 16, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know that the spread is a common formation for you guys,

but it was the priamry formation after the 2nd Jets meeting. That says to me that Cassel isn’t good in the pocket with making decisions, feeling pressure on his blind side;ie – pocket presence.

That’s not to say it won’t get better with perhaps an upgrade at offensive line. But having had 8-9 games to get a feel for the pocket, then going pretty much all shotgun later in the season doesn’t exactly say he was excelling in the pocket. How much of that has to do with the offensive line? I don’t know.

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Mar 16, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He was showing improved pocket presence before then.

The Rams game occurred before the second Jets meeting, so regardless of the fact that we went shotgun later on in the season, it doesn’t change what Patriots fans saw – he was clearly improving.

And Cassel was a very good decision maker, or else the Patriots wouldn’t have stuck with him at quarterback.

by NESilver on Mar 16, 2009 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not saying he didn't improve

Cassel is a good game manager, much like Damon Huard was for us. He didn’t make too many stupid decisions, and was effective in the system in place there. Since our system is similar, I think he’ll be effective here as well, but I haven’t seen any idications that his pocket prescence is any better than Thigpens. The only thing Cassel has going for him there is his size, which is much more prototypical of an NFL QB. He can actually see over the linemen :)

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Mar 16, 2009 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay.

You said, “Cassel never developed pocket presence” which is a little contradictory towards your “I’m not saying he didn’t improve” comment. Either he did develop better pocket presence or he didn’t.

Also, the problem I have with the term “game manager” applied to Cassel is that it implies he was asked simply not to lose the game for us. While he certainly played like more of a game manager in the beginning of the season, this just wasn’t the case by the end. I’m not sure game managers lead game-tying drives with 1:04 remaining on the clock or throw back-to-back 400 yard games.

For all the talk about Cassel having a better surrounding staff (which I completely agree with), I think something that’s often overlooked around here is the fact that our offense was the strength of our team last year, not the defense. Our defense had major issues stopping teams on third down and in the red zone all year, which is why we had to make some comebacks (something I’ve read that Thigpen never really did), and Cassel played as big a part as anyone in our eleven victories.

by NESilver on Mar 16, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you 100%

Cassel improved a lot from the beginning of the season on. Those last several games he was far from a game manager. he looked like a seasoned, confident veteran by the end of the year.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Mar 16, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also...

think givin time tyler thigpen would be good with a good offensive line and he can scramble alot better than cassel .NESilver we know you like cassel you being a PATS guy but i say trade him and get more picks.If we are going to rebuild lets do it now and get as many picks as we can! Tyler hasnt sat on the bench for how many yrs3,he can learn on the field and play more yrs, cassel is 26 or 27 now! Givin time i think Tyler could be a Steve Young.Having more picks helps this team than just having Cassel IMO………You just dont want Cassel playing in denver …….come on now tell the truth :P

by CPT.Caveman on Mar 16, 2009 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Givin time i think Tyler could be a Steve Young

But Pioli, Haley, and Clark Hunt don’t think so…

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Mar 17, 2009 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Here's what I think

If Tyler Thigpen is as good as everyone says he is, let him compete and win the job. Pioli was with Belichick when we were dealing with our Bledsoe/Brady “controversy” so I’m going to assume he has the confidence to go with whoever is the better player, regardless of what they’re being paid.

As for Denver, they had their chance to acquire him and took too long. Pioli moved quickly and got his player, along with Vrabel (ironic considering all the “Slow Po” complaints), so I think Kansas City deserves Cassel’s services more than the Broncos do.

by NESilver on Mar 17, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Cassel will be a fine starter

I just hope they dont go start any QB controversies

by Grand Master A on Mar 16, 2009 12:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Here is what I think

Cassel is the next Green and Thigpen is the next Cassel.

by Grand Master A on Mar 16, 2009 12:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd be happy with that

waiver wire pick-up groomed into a second round pick…that’s a GOOD deal.

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Mar 16, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great analogy!

by Chiefsfan1970 on Mar 16, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Cassel and Thigpen

aren’t that far apart in terms of where they are as NFL QB’s.

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Mar 16, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Except accuracy.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Mar 16, 2009 1:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

and wins

Marley will be walking soon...she could probably play Linebacker better than some of the guys we had.

by PVChiefsfan on Mar 16, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And the players that surrounded them.

You two are acting like that doesn’t matter. A better defense and receivers gave Cassel the better chance to win. The Chiefs best weapon was a tight end.

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Mar 16, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

But how do you know

the reason our recievers have not played great isn’t because of our QB play. Lets face it, The Chiefs have had questionable play from the QB since Trent Green got hit in the Cincinatti game a few years ago. Moss and Welker are awesome and I am not taking away from that but, Bowe and Gonzo are great weapons too. Like I said earlier, I am not saying that Bowe is equal to Randy Moss but, wouldn’t he have had better numbers if Thigpen were a more accurate passer?
Alot of his drops last year were his fault but Thigpen was responsible for some of those too. Even going to Gonzo, some of his passes looked like shit. Fortunately, it doesnt matter because TG is such a stud.
Is is the Chicken or the egg?

by Chiefsfan1970 on Mar 16, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

:)

That’s what I was getting after in this post and the Cutler one about Bowe’s drops vs. Tony’s. Tony hauled passes in. Could be the sophomore slump for Bowe, which I’m hoping, but he definitely underperformed in my eyes last season, even though he still played pretty well overall. That’s just a helluva lot of drops.

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Mar 16, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also...

If we had a top ten defense, how many more games would we have won last year? Not eleven but, at least five that I can think of.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Mar 16, 2009 2:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Again, that's what I'm getting at

Cassels surrounding team on both sides of the ball helped out NE, whereas the Chiefs seemed like they were always playing from behind in the 3rd and fourth quarters.

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Mar 16, 2009 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs