Open Thread: Friday Free Agency
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 7:23 AM CST
in 2009 Offseason
192 comments
UPDATE: The Chiefs have traded for LB Mike Vrabel. Click here for the discussion.
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The Kansas City Chiefs haven't signed any free agents yet but the biggest news is that OL Brian Waters wants to leave Kansas City because of the arrogance of Todd Haley and GM Scott Pioli. Click over to that thread to chat about it.
The Chiefs have also retained restricted free agents C Rudy Niswanger, S Jarrad Page and WR Jeff Webb. And if you were wondering just what a restricted free agent is, here you go:
Restricted free agents have received qualifying offers from their old clubs and are free to negotiate with any club until April 21, at which time their rights revert to their original club. If a player accepts an offer from a new club, the old club will have the right to match the offer and retain the player. If the old club elects not to match the offer, it may receive draft-choice compensation depending on the level of the qualifying offer made to the player.
That's all the free agency news right now as far as the Chiefs are concerned. Of course, that will change throughout the day. I'm back in the (relatively) frozen tundra that is Kansas City for the weekend. Every else I know is at work right now so I'm going to be sitting right here blogging for most of the day.
Use this thread for any free agency discussion. We'll be updating you throughout the day. Make sure you keep a close eye on the FanPosts and FanShots. If something goes down, you'll probably see an item posted in one of those sections about five minutes after it happens.
Peter King has a pretty good general recap of what some of the big stories are in free agency. Check it out. Also, Fanhouse has a free agency tracker that is getting updated quickly.
All updates will be after the jump.
GOOOO CHIEFS!!!
5:00 PM Per ESPN, the Broncos have signed S Brian Dawkins.
4:40 PM The Saints have agreed to a deal with LB Jonathan Vilma.
2:55 PM Following up on an earlier item, Arizona DE Antonio Smith is scheduled to visit with the Houston Texans on Sunday.
2:54 PM Guard Chris Keomoet re-signed with the Pittsburgh Steelers.
2:00 PM Bart Scott to Jets not a done deal says Sporting News. Scott is giving the Ravens a chance to match the 5 year, $40 million offer by the Jets. The Ravens might prefer Scott over Ray Lewis because he is 5 years younger.
1:29 PM Brian Dawkins will visit with the Broncos
1:27 PM Chiefs nab Vrabel in trade with Pats for undisclosed draft picks
12:03 PM The Redskins canceled a visit with Chris Canty because they are "running out of money."
11:36 AM Schefter: Browns trade Kellen Winslow to Bucs for undisclosed draft picks.
10:56 AM The Chicago Bears have agreed to terms with OT Frank Omiyale.
10:50 AM 3-4 Arizona DE Antonio Smith has offers to visit from the Buccaneers, Giants, Eagles, Texans and Falcons.
9:18 AM The Chiefs were reportedly one of the five teams interested in new Redskin DT Albert Haynesworth. (ESPN)
9:02 AM Bengals WR T.J. Houshmandzadeh will visit with the Seattle Seahawks. If he signs with Seattle, that will have ripple affects in the draft since Seattle has the #4 overall pick and was reportedly strongly interested in Texas Tech WR Michael Crabtree. (PFT)
8:52 AM Former Bengal tackle Stacy Andrews has reportedly agreed to terms with the Philadelphia Eagles. (PFT)
8:43 AM The Vikings have traded a 4th round draft pick for Texans QB Sage Rosenfels. (ESPN) H/T JComp11
8:32 AM LB Bart Scott is expected to sign with the New York Jets for $8 million a year. UPDATE: Looks like this one is official now. (Adam Schefter @ NFL.com)
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I sure am glad we kept Jeff Webb
I mean, he’s a rare commodity and an elite friend of our ex-coach receiver.
I thought things were supposed to change, not stay the same?
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 7:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ouch, that hurts.
Strangely, I bag his groceries.
-cw
"If there’s a god he’s laughing at us and our football team." - Ben Folds
by webby37 on Feb 27, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The team
Time will tell but as we move into the era of the new regime a complete sweep of players is possible. Those incidents like Waters will fade into Chiefs history and be forgotten if the Chiefs win. At this point I would not be offended at any disrespect one might think that is pointed at him. This team should be hiding their heads instead of being concerned about what a new GM and Coach might think about them. This is team play and no one player should feel like they deserve more respect then others.
by Aejfan on Feb 27, 2009 8:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Found a link
that says the signing is pretty much a done deal. Updating now.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 8:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If Brian goes, Tony goes
I just have a feeling of mass exodus from the veteran leadership. Tony wanting to leave twice this last season, LJ’s off the field rap and now Water’s wanting out. Nice message to the rookies and second year guys.
I can’t believe we have a team now with drama on a coach being as hotheaded this early on in his tenure. Hell, we even don’t have a roster set for 2009.
What gives?
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
by THE_TRUTH on Feb 27, 2009 8:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
It's fine with me
We desperately need a new attitude at Arrowhead.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 8:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly.
Curbstomp LJ, and TOny and Brian Watery-eyes will STFU and fall in line.
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a sec guys....let's think about this.
I’m not trying to take sides, but right now something stinks. The only thing we can go on is the history of Brian Waters. You all know my dissatisfaction with how TG handled things and as far as LJ, that goes without saying. I’ve also pontificated that we need some “stronger” leadership in the front office…so I don’t mind someone as HC and GM that lays the law down that no player is bigger than the org.
However:
When has Brian Waters during his tenure here made a verbal stink? Does anyone see this as MAYBE being Haley’s record of being unreasonable precluding him?
Just playing devil’s advocate.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
by THE_TRUTH on Feb 27, 2009 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Far From It
Waters has always been the guy saying that he wants to stay and build something here. Now, there’s always the chance that attitude was just a factor of him having Herm and Carl here who let him skip OTAs, but even so if the story went down the way it reportedly went down, Waters has done nothing here to merit that kind of treatment in his first meeting with the coach.
It worries me that Haley seems to have a problem dealing with players. It especially worries me when you combine his reported behavior with his retention of a guy like Krumrie…a coach whose only means of communicating with his players seems to be verbal abuse (which has produced few positive results during his tenure). If that’s the kind of guy Haley is, a guy who’s more interested in showing everyone who’s boss than achieving the results (building the best possible team) we’re in trouble because Pioli will have made a really bad hire. San Francisco just got rid of a head coach who had that mindset last year, and he was a complete disaster.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Referring To Mike Nolan
His first year on the job, he got into an argument with one of his more productive players (Kevin Barlow) and apparently was abusive enough for Barlow to call him “Little Hitler” in the press. If Haley can’t avoid Nolan’s missteps, he’s going to have a very short head coaching career.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 8:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That was my point exactly (if you meant "Far from it" in regards to Waters' history)
….this just doesn’t reflect the attitude Waters has portrayed in his tenure here. I don’t know who to believe and think it was handled poorly by both sides.
If Waters let this thing leak (no pun intended) than that was a poor choice. Secondly, if Haley did come across as pompos as Waters indicates, than that just sounds like a little too much of having a “little Napoleon” in him.
Regardless, this was just bad timing considering FA.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
by THE_TRUTH on Feb 27, 2009 8:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The coaches and Pioli arrived back at Arrowhead on Tuesday or Wednesday
from a week at the combine. They are in a mad scramble for free agency needs and background work on potential players. I think I will fly in unannounced and ask for a meeting with the top two guys because since I am a veteran they should stop everything they are doing and talk to me. What else could they be doing, playing Be-Donky-Donk or Madden? Then when I am told Pioli won’t meet with me and Haley only gives me a few minutes in the hall and insults my play last year because we only won two games? How dare he.
WHY COULDN’T HE HAVE WAITED UNTIL NEXT WEEK TO ASK FOR A MEETING?
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Feb 27, 2009 8:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
WHY COULDN’T HE HAVE WAITED UNTIL NEXT WEEK TO ASK FOR A MEETING?
Exactly
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
by THE_TRUTH on Feb 27, 2009 8:58 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Current Players know the NFL schedule for the off season........This was not the time!!
Talk to them after the draft….. We trying to work over here!!!
by Jclawd on Feb 27, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
There are 3 Crybabies on the Chiefs team
who are only concerned with self.
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
funny how they are all the "Veterans"
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Feb 27, 2009 8:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Historically, However
Waters has never been that way. Aside from skipping OTAs, I mean (which are voluntary anyway). He’s always kept his unhappiness behind the scenes. This is out of character for him.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lots of changes are going on
People are nervous and I’m not really that shocked that something like this happened.
I think we’ll have to get used to the fact that are coaches and front office are likely a bunch of jerks.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 8:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am certain that they are jerks.
And to UC, I’ve seen interviews where Watery-eyes makes a stink post-game, but he doesn’t use words like “they”, he says “we.” But my main point is, he has bitched and moaned before, but taken the blame on himself and his supporting cast.
What I don’t understand is why in the hell he thinks he can fly in and demand meetings to know what the brass is doing? And when they basically tell him it’s not your business, worry about playing well he throws a bitch-fit and goes to Whitlock.
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 9:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Fine With Them Being Jerks
As long as they produce. But right now they haven’t done much of anything that makes me think they’re improving this team. Pendergast or Gibbs as DC will be a horrible hire. Krumrie was a terrible retention. The new special teams coach hasn’t done anything that makes me believe he’s a kicking guru. Basically, all they’ve done so far is make a bunch of buddy hires and piss off one of the best players on the team for no apparent reason. And frankly, that’s the same MO as the management who just got shuffled out of here after last season.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 10:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm right there with you.
Which, of course, means the Apocalypse is near and none of this matters anyway.
by JacinB on Feb 27, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree UC
I could care less if these guys are lacking in the HR department, as long as they bring some W’s to Arrowhead, I’m cool with it.
If Waters has such strong character, why would he get so offended about what Haley said?
I know he is a Pro Bowl player, but what these guys don’t realize, is this is a TEAM sport…he needs to own up to the harsh reality that his TEAM, did in fact, suck ass last year.
by MansGame on Feb 27, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes But
Waters wasn’t the biggest part of the problem…he was doing his job to the best of his ability.
Anyway, it’s probably pointless to go down this road until more info comes out…just saying that so far the new regime isn’t impressing me with how they’re handling the team.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dont forget about Romeo he still might be the next DC at least I hope so.
by Jay 23 on Feb 27, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
they could use
Krumrie as a tackling dummy
by kcfaninsandiego on Feb 27, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
WHY!?!
Why is Webb still here!?! What purpose does that serve? The guy reeks.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 8:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Reeks of awesomeness!
HA!
Seriously though, I have no idea what the point of keeping him was. Perhaps a clerical error like in Office Space?
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 8:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If He's Playing For No Paycheck
Then I guess it could be worse.
They should fix the glitch though, if he is getting a paycheck.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that it's a matter of time.
I think that there will be more changes to come and honestly it’s a bit early.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
by THE_TRUTH on Feb 27, 2009 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way
Putting all of the updates after the jump in this post.
Bart Scott to the Jets looks like almost a done deal.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 8:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Greetings from Germany
Hi Chris,
I’m looking forward for your blogging today, the most and fastest informations about the Chiefs I get here!
Hoping to hear some good news from the Chiefs this weekend!
Greetings from Germany to the Chiefs Nation
by peine23 on Feb 27, 2009 8:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Welcome!
What time is it there??
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 8:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I always get thrown off with Daylight savings time since the dates are different
…I think it’s 7 hours or 6.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
by THE_TRUTH on Feb 27, 2009 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That sucks
Pioli, if he’s as smart as we think he is, should know we NEED a guy like Bart Scott and immediately call Bart’s agent and say that we can offer more after meeting with him. 5 year $10 million a year…that’s $50 million in and $30 million garanteed. That doesn’t sound too unreasonable, does it? I’m just nervous we won’t get a great stand-out LB like Bart Scott and our defense goes through another suck-fest faze.
There's no hope with dope...
by chrisjo07 on Feb 27, 2009 8:39 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
We can get a standout LB like Maualuga
by HIV 2 Elway on Feb 27, 2009 8:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not talking about in the draft
We need a veteran LB that can teach the young guys how to play the game. Curry or Maualuga won’t know shit unless they get help and mentoring from a veteran LB like Bart Scott. That was the biggest problem with our defense last year was the lack of veteran leadership with the LB core.
There's no hope with dope...
by chrisjo07 on Feb 27, 2009 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree..
the biggest problem with our defense was the lack of talent.
by HIV 2 Elway on Feb 27, 2009 8:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That said...
I’m all for signing a vet as well.
by HIV 2 Elway on Feb 27, 2009 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis is supposed to be leaving Baltimore as well
They’re losing all kinds!
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 8:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Not as big
but Clayton reporting Vikings completed the trade for Rosenfels for a 4th rounder.
by JComp11 on Feb 27, 2009 8:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Okay
So nobody is going to bring up the sweet Bam Morris picture I used??
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 8:48 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hey
that’s a sweet Bam Morris picture.
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 8:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Like sugar on click clacks!
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Feb 27, 2009 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Was that Bam ;)
when I saw him on 60 minutes he must’ve gained 60 lbs. after the mug shot.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
by THE_TRUTH on Feb 27, 2009 8:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My update strategy
is going to include every signing that is a position of need for the Chiefs, whether we were pursuing them or not.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 8:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Bart Scott to the Jets
is pretty much official.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 9:00 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Houshmandzadeh to visit Seattle
Which would definitely affect the draft if he signs with them. Or maybe it won’t.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 9:04 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Chris, welcome to KC!:)
Notice you brought a snow chance with you.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I know
Same thing happened when I was here over Christmas. It was like 65 degrees on a Thursday and ice and snow on Saturday. Fun stuff.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 9:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You miss it , you know it!
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not at all
Not one bit. I’m over cold.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Could Waters be being treated like this
Because the whole o-line is going to be revamped? Waters got a shot of you are not the poo anymore get over it, and do what is asked of you. After being coddled it has to be a shock to have someone tell you the way it is.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:08 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Or maybe Waters expects to much.
This is the same guy that said Herm was doing a good job.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
It's all relative
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We'll See
I’m willing to let it all play out…right now, I’m just saying that Haley’s not exactly wowing me with his acumen on assembling a coaching staff or dealing with his players. So he’d better be one hell of an in-game coach.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I respect your and most everyone elses opinion on here
I want that to be known, that what makes this site great is discussion(s) which can sometimes turn heated, but we’re all fans of the same team.
I know what you mean about the coaching hires, and I’m pretty reluctant to say anything good of them myself. However, Who was out there that would have been better than what they got (aside from Krumrie, because a clown punching bag could be better I think)? As late in the game as they were, I think the pool was a little low that they were picking from. Hopefully though, there’s enough experience there to make them good together. Time will tell.
And hey, if not there’s still the old Chiefs fan’s adage “There’s always next year…”
All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."
by IISaiNtII on Feb 27, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's A Valid Point
But Krumrie’s retention makes me think that these are the guys they wanted…not just guys they were stuck with. We’ll see, though.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am sure Pioli
was involved in who was brought in as well. These two were joined at the hip from day one. They were hired at nearly the same time.
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets face it
we wanted a tougher, winning football team. Now that could be on the way, suddenly Pioli does not know what he is doing, and Haley is a jackass, yet everyone welcomed the Jets castoff, and we are gonna win.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
First Time Post - this is a great forum
If Todd Haley is that bad then explain to me why Larry Fitzgerald wanted Todd Haley to go to the Pro-Bowl with him. Further more nver once did I hear Kurt Warner say anything ill of Haley, I hear they dined together and were close. Get used to it Chiefs players..you are now playing for a boss who EXPECTS results.
by orlandochief on Feb 27, 2009 9:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well said.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
orlando i agree
with what your saying . I think after you crack the whip like haley does,fitz and warner looked back after the season and they are in the super bowl they probably come to realize this guy knows what he is talking about ya it sucks to get your ass chewed but you dont see results sometimes with out a little whip involved .at the end of the day both are class guys and seen what this guy is capable of .
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even Boldin says this stuff happens all the time
The media just caught it at that moment. He had a sideline blow up with TO. Who the hell hasn’t?
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Chiefs were apparently one of five teams
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 9:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Does this mean we
are possibly looking at some of the big name free agents?
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Would be nice to have
a mix of proven guys, to go with the young. We do need a DT with a nasty disposition.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No more
just relax, and play, no more excuses.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Who do you believe?
Hmmmm….The President or the intern in the (red and gold) dress?
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
by THE_TRUTH on Feb 27, 2009 9:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
If your mess is on the dress, you must confess.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:25 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
We have only heard one side of this
that is probably all we will hear. Now everyone wants to jump ship?
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Notice Paul Spicer is out there
think we might make a play for him?
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:28 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Many injuries last year?
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The nature
of most coaches is to be curt not diplomatic. Just think Waters didn’t see that coming from Haley. GM’s are usually diplomatic not curt. Can’t explain that one.
by REMWHEN on Feb 27, 2009 9:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
All of this talk
about how significant it is that Haynesworth is the first non-QB $100 million dollar deal is ridiculous.
Who can save us from this crisis where prices rise??
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 9:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Obama.:)
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dan Snyder...
…is the Steinbrenner of football…except not successful. I think he’s convinced himself that he can buy championships by hording in the biggest, best, most expensive players and that will take the team to a Super Bowl. Maybe he should try firing the Head Coach again.
by jbj8609 on Feb 27, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Player's Coaches
We’ve had a couple of coaches that tried to be friends with the players and stroke their egos. It hasn’t gotten us very far. I’m ready for an old fashoined football coach that makes it clear the team is not about any one player, even a pro-bowler. I like Brian, always have, but the coach has to make it clear who’s running the show. As far as Scott not meeting with him, I don’t think we know the circumstances. If he asked to talk to Scott because he had a problem with Todd, he absolutely did the right thing by refusing. He too has to make it clear that the coach is running the team.
by WolfFan on Feb 27, 2009 10:25 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Seems like we hit a news lull
Nothing from NFL.com, Pro Football Talk or ESPN in the last hour.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 10:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
snyder i give him props
I can tell you right now even if he over spends he is sending his message out to the fans we want to win we want to bring players here that are winners . Cant blame the guy so what if they dont win atleast he is making moves and he is trying. And here we are sitting here with jeff webb holding on to him like he is gold
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 10:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Well we kept Webb
so if someone else wants him, we can get compensation.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess
I understand the sentiment but the Redskins are still 8-8 next year with Haynesworth.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
it really depends on their qb i think with zorn their cambells chances are better because he helped that guy alot this year . And if albert stays healthy he is very dominant makes others around him better.
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I completely agree, it works both ways but at least year in year out the Redskins are bringing players to try and help them win.
When deep space exploration ramps up, it'll be the corporations that name everything, the IBM Stellar Sphere, the Microsoft Galaxy, Planet Starbucks.
I'd be fine with 9-7 or 10-6 and competiting for the divsion title
by madtheory on Feb 27, 2009 10:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
redskins
ya and i went on a rant the other day . Im so tired of every player wanting to go to the cowboys or the giants or the jets. Its like why are we atleast getting a sniff of the action no one wants to come here. its depressing
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 10:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Ya me either
but it starts from the top we all know we have a good franchise a good owner we need to project that to the players that we will spend the money we will be dominant every year just come to kc we will show you the money like i said before its all about money now its sad it has become that but if you watched portis talking on nfl network at the pro bowl the first thing he said was come to the redskins baby get payed .No shock that these guys are making moves its the nfl we act as though we have a piggy bank with our life savings in it although i dont want to spend like an idiot i just want to atleast get in the mix where players get the sign like damn these chiefs want to win.
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 10:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Another offensive tackle signs
Frank Omiyale to the Bears.
by Chris Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 10:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Dude i know clark said we were not going to make moves till late in the week but we picked our coaches late we are now picking players late make a move we got the cash.
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 11:01 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
There's Not Much Out There Worth Grabbing
Not for the big bucks. Houshmanzadeh is probably the biggest name, but he doesn’t fit a need and he’s old for a WR.
The Chiefs do not need to spend money just to spend money. About the only pieces they should be interested in are second-tier guys like Dockery and Jason Brown (who’s actually a borderline first-tier FA). That’s about it. And I’m okay with them passing on Bart Scott too.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok I agree with you but why wait for Brown or Dockery?
Lets go out and sign them now before someone else does!
by Jay 23 on Feb 27, 2009 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
bart scott has experiece
and i agree with dockery and jason brown and tj why not take him tony is on his way out he can easily give us 5 years he is a slot type guy he gets open hes making the number one reciver look horrible he constantly puts up numbers why not go after that guy give dbowe a run for his money put it this way tj blows away dbowe in route running and catching why not get him and when is the last time the chiefs had a wide reciever one two punch. In their primes.
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 11:07 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Good point
Lets get Housh & then we dont draft crabtree we go D either Curry or maybe Rak Daddy.
by Jay 23 on Feb 27, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly i rather have a player in tj
that is proven not taking some guess on some rookie . And we need to get out of the carl mode where we find decent guys who become great and then we are stuck paying them on the way out than raher on the way up but we always sleep on this and let other teams enjoy the glory.
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The way I look at it
Its futher than financial and maybe thats where the chiefs get it twisted no matter what you do you have to pay the players . I would rather have tj getting a fat check going off for us then the wack ass seahawks get out of town why give them the glory the guy can play he is a professional .
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 11:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Tampa News
is reporting that the Bucs have traded w/ the Browns for TE Kellen Winslow jr, it should be annouced officially either later today or tomorrow for undisclosed draft picks.
When deep space exploration ramps up, it'll be the corporations that name everything, the IBM Stellar Sphere, the Microsoft Galaxy, Planet Starbucks.
I'd be fine with 9-7 or 10-6 and competiting for the divsion title
by madtheory on Feb 27, 2009 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Big Trade
Who’s going to throw the ball to him now they they’ve dumped Garcia? And who’s Quinn going to throw the ball to? Winslow was the only target he seemed to have any comfort level with. He looked horrible throwing to his WRs.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Although
This might make Martin Rucker fantasy-relevant.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Two stud MU tight ends in the league this season!
Rucker will do well
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
By The Way
I think Cleveland is going to have a lot of problems this year. If any of us think that Haley’s not doing a great job dealing with players because of Waters, that’s nothing compared to the apparent unhappiness coming from the Browns. Sounds like Mangini is hated there already…they’ve already traded one of his best players and another (Shaun Rogers) says he’d rather not get his roster bonus if it means he has to keep playing there.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, kinda surprised by this one
Didn’t see the Browns moving him, even with his off the field problems. Now they have a young QB and no “motha-f*ing soldiers” for him to throw to.
by Chiefs n Chopper on Feb 27, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is this 08 all over again?
We have not signed one free agent? I mean as far as free agency.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 11:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Bucs are looking to make some moves...
they were heavily involved in haynesworth and now trade for winslow… i wish we were at least looking like we were alive… no activity for us at all…
by kcchiefsfan on Feb 27, 2009 11:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Saw A Report Yesterday
That we were in the mix for Jason Brown. If the Chiefs get him, I’ll be happy.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The center from Baltimore?
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not Any More
Baltimore dumped him before free agency kicked off. He’d be a good pickup for us. 26 and a solid player.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We need all the o-line help we can get.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn't Mind Getting Brown And Dockery
The Rams are talking to Brown today…they need o-line help as much as well do. Probably even more considering how beat up Orlando Pace is.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Me too.
It is kind of interesting that Buffalo dumped him after signing that big contract though.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I Was Surprised Too
Appears to be purely a cost-cutting move, though…the left side of Buffalo’s line struggled this year and Dockery wasn’t doing much to stabilize it.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Question
if we sign Jason Brown, who do we draft in the 2nd round. Wouldnt really need Unger or Mack unless they can play multiple OL positions? Not sure if it was mentioned that they can or not.
When deep space exploration ramps up, it'll be the corporations that name everything, the IBM Stellar Sphere, the Microsoft Galaxy, Planet Starbucks.
I'd be fine with 9-7 or 10-6 and competiting for the divsion title
by madtheory on Feb 27, 2009 11:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Draft
we could still draft mack or unger… brown can be shifter over to guard and i think it was mack actually played left tackle before moving to center for two seasons…. there would be alot of versatility with all these players
by kcchiefsfan on Feb 27, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
thank you
wasnt sure, hey as stated we could use all the OL help we can get.
When deep space exploration ramps up, it'll be the corporations that name everything, the IBM Stellar Sphere, the Microsoft Galaxy, Planet Starbucks.
I'd be fine with 9-7 or 10-6 and competiting for the divsion title
by madtheory on Feb 27, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yep
we could def use some OL help, brown is young and strong… mack or unger could play center or guard and were both known as good line generals… i would def look at either one in the secound round… we need brown though, with alot of defenses going 3/4 he is big and strong enough to handle big nose tackles one on one…
by kcchiefsfan on Feb 27, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Someone Else Besides A Center, I Suppose
Guard, tackle if one falls that low, maybe a QB. It would be a good problem to have.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
can the chiefs just sniff some free agent boxers
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope.
Who would want to play here after hearing how the coach treats his best players?
by JacinB on Feb 27, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
All doom, and gloom already.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Guess another 15-33 run
over the next three years would be welcome.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If you see a reason for optimism ...
Feel free to point it out.
by JacinB on Feb 27, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We don't have a push over for a coach
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because we have a coach who
believes in scoring points. He did not come in saying, we are going to run the ball, and play defense. He came in with an open mind, saying he wants to find what works, and keep working it. We have a solid o-coordinator in Chan Gailey for him to work with. We are still in the Romeo Crennel running for DC.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Romeo
Will be a great move that I think we are close to making! At least I really hope so.
by Jay 23 on Feb 27, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We probably hired him
They just won’t announce it until the draft LOL
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That is why I am wondering
if their have been some signings, we will not know till next week.:)
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope your right
Well at least about the part that we hired him. I want to hear the news now I think we all could use some good news.
by Jay 23 on Feb 27, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
jacin ur right
we are sitting like a deer in head lights right now i always have liked the idea to get the missing pieces in free agency dont have to be the flashiest players but some young up and comers just jump on it though dont wait till they talk to everyone else.
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
assasin,
is the porn business suffering in todays market?:)
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
heeeeelll noooo
everyone is laid off there at home jacking offf hahhahaha
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sad thing is i should be jacking off to chiefs free agent domination
instead i get cock blocked by brian waters news hahahah
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently it seems to work for Parcells
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Parcells has proven himself.
Haley hasn’t.
by JacinB on Feb 27, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Parcells
Just ended up the way he is or was he always that way. I would go with the latter
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So?
Haley isn’t Parcells.
He’s accomplished absolutely nothing as a head coach except to manage to convince one of the teams true stars — a guy who is one of the best in the entire NFL at his job and would probably want to retire a Chief had this encounter not occured — that he doesn’t want to be here anymore.
That’s not a good start.
by JacinB on Feb 27, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Once again
Do we know how everything went down? No.
Funny that Waters won’t comment publicly but will bitch to the newspaper.
This story is going to end up a lost story.
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
God, espn keeps running the Haynesworth signing.
Tired of hearing about it.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 11:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
My Prediction
They’re going to hate that deal in three years. Bet Haynesworth ends up missing at least three to four games a year with injury and loses effectiveness shortly after he turns 30.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably so.
Or he becomes comfortable.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 11:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I Don't Think He'll Get Complacent
But he’s been injured a lot in his career and I think it’s going to shorten it by several years.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Never know on the complacency though.
LJ ring a bell?:)
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 11:49 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Patriots went through this same thing
When Belichik and Pioli were there. They cut some veteran players and it raised some eye brows around the league. Lawyer Milloy one of the best safeties at the time was let go for this similar situation.
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 11:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
They picked up Fred Taylor,
that guy has some miles on him.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 11:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I Don't Think He'll Be That Good
He looked about finished last year with Jacksonville. Terrible season…he wasn’t even useful on short-yardage.
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
by UCrawford on Feb 27, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He will fit in ther though
They don’t rely as heavily on thr run and J-ville
AFC West Champs in 2009? Mayyybee.
by cmpotter on Feb 27, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think NE is a better
coached, and put together team though.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
but they do a RB by Committee type deal so he should work out fine
When deep space exploration ramps up, it'll be the corporations that name everything, the IBM Stellar Sphere, the Microsoft Galaxy, Planet Starbucks.
I'd be fine with 9-7 or 10-6 and competiting for the divsion title
by madtheory on Feb 27, 2009 11:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
They picked up TE Chris Baker as well.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone seen anything
on Igor Olshansky? I was hoping we might wind up with him.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Him and Canty are the two I'm interested in
They’re also some of the bigger names remaining, so it’ll be interesting to see how it plays out. Hopefully Pioli is at least trying to establish conversation with one of them, doubt we’ll know anything until they sign or at least visit some team.
by Chiefs n Chopper on Feb 27, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oshansky lets get him i have been on that band wagon for years
he needs to be on our team so i can scream iiiiiiiiiiigggggggggggooooor ooooshaaansky like they do in san diego
by sexassassin on Feb 27, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Keith brookings released by Falcons
sign him now!
by rustdog on Feb 27, 2009 12:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Chris says
Skins canceled visit with Canty cause they are running out of money. Send that man to KC!
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 12:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Perfect
Lets sign him today & not sit around waiting!!!!
by Jay 23 on Feb 27, 2009 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
sacks
hes not consistent with getting sacks but is a disruptive force in the backfield and a playmaker… thats the knock on canty too, doesnt get sacks, but does get in the backfield quick and makes some plays….
by kcchiefsfan on Feb 27, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Still
He is an upgrade on what we had last year!
by Jay 23 on Feb 27, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
both
are upgrades from what we have….
by kcchiefsfan on Feb 27, 2009 1:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I am glad you agree....
So why not sign them now?
by Jay 23 on Feb 27, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Im right there with you...
those two we should have been in contact with two weeks ago…
by kcchiefsfan on Feb 27, 2009 1:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Nice!
He will be good for our younger Lb’s and Curry when we draft him. just hope we didn’t give up a pick in the top three rounds.
by mooseface79 on Feb 27, 2009 1:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Scott to the Jets not a done deal
Ravens will get the chance to match. Check the updates at the top of this post.
by Joel Thorman on Feb 27, 2009 2:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Done deal now, 5 years, 40 million
Adam Schefter reports.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 27, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was wrong, 6year, 48 million.
Now hopefully this team is fun to watch again! Thanks Scott, Clark!!
by Eric Allen on Feb 28, 2009 8:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wooo
I really like the trade for Vrabel. He doesnt limit us to who we can draft because hes an outside or inside backer. Obviosuly the draft pick is really important, 4th round and up would be great, Third round would be kinda tough to swallow since its so early
by SayHeyWerd on Feb 27, 2009 4:33 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I feel so behind I just got home and could only get on a computer at around 10. This thread has like 500 comments! lots of shit goin down
by SayHeyWerd on Feb 27, 2009 4:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I have a feeling
that getting Vrabel from the Pat’s is just the beginning from what we’re getting from them. We might be giving up a 1st round draft pick and maybe a couple others but we might just be walking away with Cassel in hand. There are other good LB’s in the draft that can work well in the 3-4 defensive scheme and with a guy like Vrabel teaching these young guys how to play and tackle and maybe picking up another FA for our D-line or LB core than that’s all the better for us.
There's no hope with dope...
by chrisjo07 on Feb 27, 2009 11:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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