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Talking about the Chiefs' Spread Offense

We've been talking about the Kansas City Chiefs possibly switching defensive schemes from a 4-3 to a 3-4 formation quite a bit around here lately (and it's something we'll have more on too). The NFL Combine and Wake Forest LB Aaron Curry especially have geared our interests towards the defense. The Chiefs will need at least three more serviceable linebackers in a 3-4 defense on top of Derrick Johnson in order to run it successfully. This may happen this year. This may happen next year. Or never at all. I keep forgetting that everything we hear now out about the Chiefs is hypothetical.

But what about the offense?

The 2008 Pistol

Chan Gailey jerry-rigged the Pistol offense last year for Tyler Thigpen and co. and that formation is far from a settled upon for 2009 (At least that's what I suspect) despite its success. In 11 starts last year, partially running the Pistol offense, here are Thigpen's averages:


Comp   Att   Pct   Yds   TD   Int   Sck   Rate   Rush Yds  
Avg. 19.2 33 58.69 221.6 16 8 1.9 84.14 32.5

From Week 9 on, when Thigpen became the full time starter and the Pistol was introduced, the Chiefs averaged 340 yards and about 23 points a game. Before that, they barely managed 270 yards and 19 points a game.

Yes, you already knew this. The Pistol offense was fun to watch but it didn't really lead to wins. And to be fair to the team, like I said before, the offense was thrown together in the middle of the season.

Was the Pistol like triage for the offense? Was it the only thing Chan Gailey could do to keep the team from keeling over? Or is the spread/Pistol formation a legitimate formation the Chiefs will run in 2009?

Like with the 3-4 or 4-3 defenses, the Chiefs need to make sure they have the personnel to successfully run the schemes they want. For the spread, Pistol offense, whatever you want to call it, Thigpen seems to be a good QB for it.

Pick a scheme, draft the right players for it

But the Chiefs don't really have any other "spread" type players to facilitate a full blown transition to a full Pistol offense, or at least to running the Pistol 10-15 times a game.Tyler Thigpen appears to have a good combination of skills to run the spread but the nice thing is he can also line up under center and still play just like a normal QB. He doesn't have the gadgety, wrinkle in his game to put a spread offense over the top. We also don't have a real running threat in this spread offense.

The defensive and offensive schemes will affect who the Chiefs draft.

Ncf_g_white_300_mediumWhich is why I want to talk about senior West Virginia QB Pat White. He could be that rushing wrinkle the Chiefs need.

The Moutaineer was the leader of a WVU spread offense that produced quite a bit of offense over the last three years. Here are White's stats for his college career, with the averages only including his final three years as a starting QB:

YEAR  CMP  ATT  YDS  CMP%  YPA  LNG  TD  INT  SACK 
2005 65 114 828 57 7.26 50 8 5 5
2006 118 179 1655 65.9 9.25 67 13 7 12
2007 144 216 1724 66.7 7.98 79 14 4 8
2008 180 274 1844 65.7 6.73 52 21 7 16
Last 3 Yr. Avg. 147.3 223 1741 66.1 8 66 16 6 12

A couple things stand out to me immediately. First, White has that magical 60+% completion percentage we like to zero in on here at AP. Second, he is a three year starter at a big time football school. He has lots of experience, especially running a spread offense. Finally, for the most part anyway, White has shown improvement over his starting three years. Yes, his INTs and sacks went up in 2008 but remember WVU did lose star running back Steve Slaton to the NFL so a drop off in White's stats isn't really a concern to me.

Any concerns about arm strength from the 6' tall, 190 pound QB were seemingly dashed at the Combine this past week. Here's what NFL analyst Mike Mayock said about White:

"Pat White threw the hell out of the ball."

Well, you can't put it much clearer than that.

I really like Pat White a lot. And so do a lot of other people which means that the Chiefs may have to use a 3rd or even 2nd round pick to get him. That is a steep price for a player who isn't necessarily full time.

We'll delve into Pat White more over the next few weeks (Remember the Chiefs spoke with him at the Senior Bowl) but for now, I wanted to put that bug in your ear about the offense. The Chiefs still haven't really settled on a formation on either side of the ball and they'll need to do that (Perhaps they have) before the draft.

If we don't hear any more about the Chiefs' plans on offense or defense, the players the Chiefs draft in April will be a big indicator about the direction we're going.

Poll
Should the Chiefs draft QB Pat White?
No earlier than the 2nd round
108 votes
No earlier than the 3rd round
365 votes
No earlier than the 4th round
207 votes
No earlier than the 5th round
75 votes
Don't draft him at all
122 votes

877 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs  |  Comment 45 comments |

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Wrong conclusion?

The Pistol offense was fun to watch but it didn’t really lead to wins.

Wasn’t that down to the defense leaking like a sieve?

Blame my wife!

by sir eccles on Feb 25, 2009 9:12 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Very true

Good point. I would say the offense suffered from inconsistency though.

By the way, I meant to say at the top of the post that I was using spread/Pistol interchangeably.

by Chris Thorman on Feb 25, 2009 9:15 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

In several of our losses...

We were just one or two defensive plays from winning. If the defense were 10% better (which isnt asking for much, considering how bad our defense sucked) The Chiefs could have easily finished around .500

by Chiefsfan1970 on Feb 25, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well we've heard this before...

…and I’ll argue that Detroit was close to winning a couple of games. Does that keep them from being 0-16?
Hence my Parcells’ signature regarding the folks that are in the “what if” category. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn’t contribute to the fact that in the end they didn’t get it done.

Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."

"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.

by THE_TRUTH on Feb 25, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget...

about special teams. I can think of three games off the top of my head in which those units lost the game for us.

by chiefsfan1384 on Feb 25, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

In several of our losses

The ball was in our offenses hands and they flubbed it.

You can say that the defense shouldn’t have been giving up 30 points a game, which is true, but that doesn’t change the fact that when it was crunch time, our offense was overwhelmed.

by ChiefDJ on Feb 25, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

think about this...

hard to say who or what is responsible for a loss, but I think it’s agreed the defense was worse than the offense. If I had time, I’d compare our offensive stats the second half of the season to some of the successful Ravens teams to see if it was good enough to win a super bowl (conceivably) if coupled with an elite defense.

But think about this:

How good would it be if the same guys got to run it for another year? Two years? When evaluating personnel and scheme, we have to consider the upside too.

the performance enhancing drugs argument begins with lassic eye surgery

by nayjevin on Feb 25, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the offense was inconsistent.

but the offense cant get any consistency when T.T would force the ball to T.G. and not really look at any other recievers. that and herm running the show

by chiefs8288 on Feb 25, 2009 6:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope the Chiefs

keep the spread/pistol and develop it more. With the league gearing more towards passing now-a-days with all the protection given to WR’s, passing is where it’s at (as evidenced by the Cardinals appearance in the superbowl).

As well, more and more colleges are running the spread, and the QB’s coming into the draft are increasingly becoming spread QB’s. It’s going to infiltrate the NFL, sooner or later (and in some forms, it already has).

It’s hard to say whether or not the spread/pistol won the Chiefs zero games, or the defense lost them, because BOTH sides of the ball played inconsistent and helped each other lose 14 games. But I saw enough promise in Gaileys game to have the spread stick around to see how it fares for another year.

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Feb 25, 2009 9:32 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

What about the second half futility?

I’d wager that we scored two thirds of our points in the 1st half of those 9 games. I don’t think it was the fault of the formation that we couldn’t score after halftime. That needs to be figured out.

Tim Tebow.....concrete cyanide. Thanks jg.

by Chiefho on Feb 25, 2009 10:04 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Another good point

The Chiefs were broken in a lot of places last year.

by Chris Thorman on Feb 25, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Most definitely

I think the opposing defenses changed and either the offense relaxed and played not to lose, or didn’t adjust to the opponents adjustments.

However, I’m not good at breaking down defenses, and watching tape I don’t have, so whatever :)

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Feb 25, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That was the coach's fault

Herm couldn’t make adjustments. He usually had good game plans going into a game but couldn’t make halftime or on-the-fly adjustments. That may also fall on Gailey, but we’ll get a chance to see this coming year. If we don’t fall apart in the second half this year, we can put the majority of the blame on Herm. If we do…well there’s a lot of people on a team and a lot of blame to spread around.

by Chiefs4Life on Feb 25, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

gailey

Ya I really want to see what we can do this coming year if we still have the same problem then we are in touble . Thats why i say you can trick some a team for so long then you have to actually play.Dont get me wrong the pistol was cool its a tight wire act but when it comes down to it i would rather pound the ball and say stoooppppp meee . Im old school i guess but the run game just makes things really easy and it sets u up for the pass.

by sexassassin on Feb 25, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Tim Tebow.....concrete cyanide. Thanks jg.

by Chiefho on Feb 25, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Real men pound the rock

Tim Tebow.....concrete cyanide. Thanks jg.

by Chiefho on Feb 25, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

we need to ground and pound

pitt wins super bowls grounding and pounding and strong d. Dont get me wrong i think we should keep the pistol but not lose site of pounding the rock we need to mix it up i hope we do not end up like a poor mans cardnals and put up a million points and lose by one point.

by sexassassin on Feb 25, 2009 10:33 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Agree...

I still think the spread is a gimmick in the NFL. A lot of Chiefs fans are believing the hype because they’re also Big12 fans and thus see the spread on Saturdays and Sundays. The problem I have with the spread is that you rely on the pass too much and it can bite you in the ass while trying to close out games. If its late in the game and we’re trying to run the clock out I want to be able to pound the ball.

by HIV 2 Elway on Feb 25, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Chiefs

ended up ranked 16th in rushing yards, and ranked 2nd in a three way tie for rush average… I don’t think that’s too shabby considering that ranks them well above the two teams who competed for the superbowl

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Feb 25, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

links

Total rush yards

Average rush

Don’t forget to note where the Cardinals and Steelers appear on those lists…

All I have to say is "Thank you, Clark."

by IISaiNtII on Feb 25, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tyler Thigpen...

had a lot to do with that. He had more rushing yards than any quarterback on the roster. Plus, that early 200 yard preformance by LJ against Denver before the spread makes the numbers seem better than they are.

by chiefsfan1384 on Feb 25, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

exactly

and i kind of agreed with herm he was saying playing in the playoffs in the snow trying to run the pistol your going to run into some problems and like your saying late in the game you still trying to pass to close out the game you give the other team chances if you cant get first downs.

by sexassassin on Feb 25, 2009 10:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I stand corrected

But I would rather be top 10 if we could i remember when we had priest and we had barry word and the nightmare . It was like we are going to run the ball and there is nothing you can do about it ,and when you think u can stop us we will throw a pass . I would just like more running and a little less passing unless our D is to nasty then I dont care what you do as long as we are putting up points and they are not.

by sexassassin on Feb 25, 2009 10:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

How many playoff games

did the 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense get us? The NFL is changing and we need to change with it. But how many playoff games did Vermiels flying circus get us? We need to find a happy medium.

by paratrooper on Feb 25, 2009 11:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

with vermeil

we had the best offense you couldent stop priest and our d was weak but we had a bye in the playoffs to the colts

by sexassassin on Feb 25, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I remember in the Dolphins game

Miami couldnt stop the run and we just kept passing. If Herm would have called more run plays in the second half, the Chiefs would have won that game for sure.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Feb 25, 2009 11:12 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

He did call them...

, but we were not moving it whatsoever.

by chiefsfan1384 on Feb 25, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thats what im saying

happy medium i dont mind the pistol . But their is a reason why pitt has championships their is a reason why clark wants to be like pitt and their is a reason the giants won it they have a running game and a pass game . but they set up the pass by running the ball not running the pistol all game i just say we do both happy medium.

by sexassassin on Feb 25, 2009 11:14 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Pat White is fast becoming my sleeper in this draft

I love this kid. All you have heard about him from the pundits is how he won’t make it at the next level as a QB.

Here’s Todd McShay’s Breakdown of Pat White before the Senior Bowl:

"The facts remains, though, that White has a fragile 6-foot-1, 190-pound frame, he does not show good accuracy when attempting NFL-style throws and he will have a steep learning curve transitioning from the Mountaineers’ option-based offense to a pro-style system. That’s why we have no doubt that White’s chances of earning a living in the NFL are much greater as a versatile slot receiver than as a quarterback. "

What does White do? Earn the MVP award.

Think he should be WR? He goes to the combine and performs the best among the QB’s, outshining Mark “I have played 3 quarters” Sanchez.

I love the idea of a guy that keeps disproving pundits and plays with a chip on his shoulders. Man would he look good in red.

by mushin on Feb 25, 2009 11:57 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I am a big fan of this kid as well

He is very smart and has a good head on his shoulders as well. He had an outstanding combine and also showed that he can be coached. Before the combine people were commenting on his long windup on deep balls. After he threw Mayock noted that he had fixed his windup and he threw the best out of all the QB’s.

I would love for us to pick him up in the 4th round and see what he can do in camp. He may be small but has no injury history and he ran a lot and took some big hits. The kid is going to prove a lot of people wrong.

by KCCheeze on Feb 25, 2009 12:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like this guy too.

He will be gone by 3rd and would not be a smart pick that high for us. We could snatch the kid from Central Arkansas in the 5th or 6th.

Tim Tebow.....concrete cyanide. Thanks jg.

by Chiefho on Feb 25, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If he's starts falling in 2

He’d be worth a bit of haggling and move up for. I agree that drafting him at #2 in the 2nd round might be hella high, but drafting him around 20-25 in round #2 would be about right. Lord knows that the Pioli/Pats team moved all over the damn board when they spotted somebody they liked, and the only thing I see not to like about White is the fact that he probably dated some ugly women at WVU. (have you seen what passes for a pretty girl in WV…..<<>>>…

I wouldn’t mind one damn bit if the chiefs traded somebody their position in the 3rd and a 4th or 5th round pick to move up and snag him.

Good god I can’t wait for the draft.

by mushin on Feb 25, 2009 1:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm jumping...

on the band wagon. I’ve always liked Pat White, but I wanted him as a wideout. The guy would be a great talent and a good value at the top of the 3rd round. If we don’t make a trade for Cassel I wouldn’t mind developing White while Thigpen is given the chance to prove himself. Did you guys know this kid’s name is ‘the chief". It’s a match made in heaven. I can’t think of anyone at the top of the 3rd that I would like to pick up with the exception of Caldwell (C, Alabama) or if a guy somehow slips. But, if we pick up J Brown in free agency would should go after White, good football player period.

by chiefsfan1384 on Feb 25, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+1

the performance enhancing drugs argument begins with lassic eye surgery

by nayjevin on Feb 25, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the spread is no gimmick, get real

spreading out a defense is FUNDAMENTAL to offense. Offensive players have an extra step because they know where they are going, while the defense must wait for the player to make a move before reacting. The best thing a defense can do is add another guy. If the offense lines up in goalline and runs it up the middle, 11 defenders are right there to stop the ball carrier. If they line up in the spread and run up the middle, the receivers might take 6 or 7 guys completely out of the play.

Spreading it out works, period.

the performance enhancing drugs argument begins with lassic eye surgery

by nayjevin on Feb 25, 2009 3:49 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, KC is going to go down as the Bengals of the 70's

The West Coast offense was birthed in Cincinatti where they couldn’t run the ball…ever….Bill Walsh and Paul Brown were forced to figure out a way to move the ball, so they started throwing short quick passes as long handoffs.

Enter the 08 Chiefs. Desperate for offense? Try a gimmick. No matter what anyone thinks about the spread offense, it moved the ball all over the field. In a copycat league, somebody else is going to go there. Look at the Wildcat. The spread is here to stay.

by mushin on Feb 25, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

spread offense dictates man to man

get man to man coverage by spreading it out.

by using a spread formation, it becomes more difficult for the defense to defend in zone (the zone of potential damage is larger with the spread). It creates man to man situations, which are advantage:offense, as I said before, because the offense always has an extra step(see Marcus Allen dive or a hit and run in baseball), and timing/execution will always beat man to man coverage (see Marvin Harrison slant).

the performance enhancing drugs argument begins with lassic eye surgery

by nayjevin on Feb 25, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

offenses will keep spreading it out until they hit the sidelines (ceiling)

WR’s, athletic TE’s, and smaller, more agile OL will be in demand to run the spread, then defenses will need a shitload of CB’s and rangy safeties to defend it. Some defenses will focus on up front disruption, others will try to load up on man to man shutdowns. Then Jim Brown will come along and bring back pounding the ball and driving forearms into puny second level arms tacklers.

the performance enhancing drugs argument begins with lassic eye surgery

by nayjevin on Feb 25, 2009 4:02 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

As long as you have a QB that can run it effectively

QB’s that can run the spread must be accurate and mobile enough to avoid the rush that is coming to disrupt them. The shotgun helps, but unless you have a QB that reads and throws as quick as Warner, he better be able to run. Just look at the Rams a couple of years ago when they were running their offense. If you started to disrupt Warner, it got ugly, especially since that man couldn’t outrun Rich Eisen. Ideally you want to marry Thigpen’s arm, White’s legs, and McCoy’s accuracy into one body. A big QB with a slow deliver who isn’t mobile will get creamed.

by mushin on Feb 25, 2009 4:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i agree

I would use quick passes. I HATE slow developing plays like reverses, but I do love getting the ball in the hands of athletic guys quick. With the shotgun, a playbook that always calls for the trigger to be pulled in the first 3 seconds of the snap could work with just about any quarterback who had 15 yard accuracy.

the performance enhancing drugs argument begins with lassic eye surgery

by nayjevin on Feb 25, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pat White

If we draft Pat White he will be our starting QB before the year is over.

vajazz24

by vajazz24 on Feb 25, 2009 4:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

+1

I wouldn’t doubt it…the kid is on hell of a football player

by KCCheeze on Feb 25, 2009 10:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's funny, I was going to write a fanpost about Pat White

I don’t know that the Chiefs are really a Pistol offense team. They ran it several times last year and it got a lot of notoriety, but they abandoned it the last two or three games of the year and went to straight Spread. The purpose of the Pistol formation was to enable some play action. I don’t know if they decided it was ineffective or what the situation was.

I don’t know about Pat White as a legitimate starting QB type, but I would love to have him as a SLASH player. It would be nice if he could make the transition from QB to WR as succesfully as Randel El did so he could be on the field all the time and always be a threat to do something crazy, but I don’t know if that is realistic or if White has that capability.

by ChiefDJ on Feb 25, 2009 4:57 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i have watched him play quite a few times

The kid runs good with the ball and he can take a hit. he is small but he always seems to get back up. I don’t know where they get off saying he is inaccurate. i have seen him make some pretty damn spot on throws and anyone who saw the combine could see that his footwork/arm strength/accuracy looked better than all the others out there.

by KCCheeze on Feb 25, 2009 10:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pat White = Michael Vick Lite

They sure seem similar to me. I’m not talking character, but football abilities.

If we want to stick with the pistol, keep Thigpen. He is mobile enough and quick enough to make it work. What does Pat White bring that Thigpen doesn’t?

I for one want to see neither be our QB next year, but I don’t see White as much of an upgrade over Thigpen.

by jjbjhawk on Feb 25, 2009 10:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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