If Crabtree is Anything Like Fitzgerald, Chiefs Should Take Him with the 3rd Pick
by Joel Thorman on Feb 2, 2009 1:41 PM CST
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Offseason
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4 games. 30 receptions. 546 yards. 7 touchdowns. 3 NFL playoff records.
Yes, many receivers are devalued in the first round of the NFL draft because an outstanding year produces 100 receptions or just 6.25 touches per game. Compare that with a running back who might touch the ball over 300 times in a season. But Larry Fitzgerald's performance not only in the 2008-2009 regular season, but also in the playoffs (statistics above) demonstrates the value of an elite wide receiver in the NFL.
Fitzgerald was a beast coming out of the University of Pittsburgh. He had NFL size and the college statistics to back it up. Taking a look at Fitzgerald's size and performance in the college ranks brings us back to the Michael Crabtree question.
I have not been an advocate of selecting Crabtree with the 3rd overall pick. Not enough value. Championships are won in the trenches. Plenty of other needs.
After watching the impact a player like Fitzgerald has on the Cardinals, why wouldn't the Chiefs seriously consider Crabtree with the 3rd overall pick?
Both players were primary starters for 2 seasons in college and both were the consensus #1 at wide receiver entering the draft.
| Larry Fitzgerald | Michael Crabtree | |
| Seasons | 2 | 2 |
| Receptions | 161 | 231 |
| Yards | 2,677 | 3,127 |
| Touchdowns | 34 | 41 |
| Height | 6'3" | 6'3" |
| Weight | 225 lbs | 214 lbs |
The thing with Fitzgerald, and a guy like Crabtree, is that you can play perfect defense and still not get it right. As Fitzgerald has demonstrated, he's just bigger and stronger than the opposition. Sometimes, there's nothing the opponent can do about it.
NBC's pregame show had a segment dissecting Fitzgerald's impact with Rod Woodson playing as a DB and Cris Collinsworth as a WR. They dissected a few plays and how the Steelers would guard Fitzgerald. At one point, Collinsworth asked what happens when the ball goes up in the air and Fitzgerald is just bigger and stronger than the defender and can catch the ball at its highest point. Woodson didn't have an answer for him.
The point is, there are plenty of indications that Crabtree is this type of player (although nothing is guaranteed). Bigger. Stronger. Better. Why not take the risk that Crabtree will be the next Fitzgerald?
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I'm all for it...
with Bowe, Crabtree, and TG catching balls we could really evaluate Thigpen and then draft one of the better QB prospects next year
There's a really good argument against Crabtree
And I can respect that. I’m just saying that he looks like he’ll be another Fitzgerald (although nothing is guaranteed and Fitz is a special, special player).
Hells Yeah.
With the QB draft class shot to hell it makes a lot of sense. If we really want a rookie QB to develop we can bring in Graham Harrell or (God forbid) Chase Daniel in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.
umm
Chase Daniels will be a 7th rounder no way he gets 3rd round consideration he didn’t perform well enough last year to make up for his lack of size. Harrell would be great if we decide to keep the spread for another season, but I think Pioli’s going to toss our second for Matt Cassel. Many people made the case that Cassel was only good because he had Welker and Moss to throw to. Imagine Crabtree, Bowe, Gonzalez, Bradley, and Franklin.. I know I just peed my pants too
DANIEL
He’s only one Daniel, not plural ;)
The Day Herm Edwards didn't get his team ready to beat the Raiders at Arrowhead is the day he kissed his job goodbye.
So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehn GOODBYYYEE!
haha
sorry but his stock seriously sits at 7th to FA in the draft. I know all the MIZZOU fans are going to hate me for this.. I’m from Hawaii so I’m a die hard Warriors fan, sorry no interest in Missouri
Heh.
It’s all good.
I, too, don’t think that Daniel will be a great QB in the pros. I would probably take him with a 5th pick if I were a team like Philly or New England whose offense is built on the short passing game leading to the deep passing game. Daniel could probably improve him arm strength with an NFL conditioning coach…but right now, I wouldn’t take him with anything higher than a 5th.
Daniel is 7th-round material
and Harrell is rated as a 6th rounder by walterfootball.com. I could see us taking Harrelll earlier than that, but not 2nd or 3rd round. And I only say we go for Crabtree if we can pick up both a DE and an LB in free agency.
Yeah, neither one of those two is a middle-rounder. I think it could be interesting to take a flyer on one or the other late in the draft, but not when the team ought to be worrying about finding a decent OG.
by burntorangehorn on Feb 2, 2009 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
Case for Crabtree
Prime, we may disagree on Gailey and Haley, but glad to see we agree here.
As we’ve both pointed out, he was even BETTER than Fitz in college, and I like him even more after Graham Harrell showed his true colors in the Senior Bowl. Crabtree and Mike Leach carried that guy.
Crabtree and Bowe would be close to Fitz and Boldin, with Bradley trying to play Breaston, but Tony G. would be the equalizer.
He’s at the top of pretty much everybody’s boards, too. I’m convinced he;ll own the combine.
Played better that Fitz...
Perhaps because Crabtree played in spread offense in a conference that plays zero defense.
Walt Harris was more of a West Coast guy, making the stats for the Fitz and Crab harder to compare.
That's true
But can you say with complete confidence that Fitzgerald was a better prospect than Crabtree?
They’re both at the top if you ask me.
I have to disagree...
Maybe the Big 12 did lack a little defense with some of their teams, especially in the North, but I think its harder to make a debate for the Big East to have better defenses to face than the National Champion runner-up.
With that being said, I love Crabtree taken by the Chiefs. Especially with the circumstances of players entering the draft (qb for example). Pioli has to be loving his job right now. With the amount of cap space and power behind him supporting him, he has to have the best GM job in the league right now. I would stay away from cassel though. First I doubt he’s going to be available but if he is, I would rather wait a year with Thig and get a QB next draft then give up too much for him.
Beat me to it. No way the Big Least had better defenses in Fitzgerald’s days than the Big 12 has now.
by burntorangehorn on Feb 2, 2009 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
i was thinking
if Haley got the HC job how much say he would have in bringing in crabtree, and if he would want to. he would be able to the samethings he did in Arizona, in K.C. and prob. even more with Tony G. in the mix.
i dont if its because of the line the cards have or if Haley doesnt like to run the ball alot…maybe its because edgrin is just getting older.
it seems like the cards really dont run the ball too much. i think they were last in the league in rushing yards at like 74.0 yards a game
Personally, I have waffled a lot over who we should take
at #3 if we cannot trade down, but I certainly wouldn’t be surprised or upset if we took Crabtree. BPA strategy and all. There is very little doubt that he will be a very good pro player. At the very least we should take the posture that we are going to draft him in the hopes that we can entice another team to move up, even if we swap draft spots with Seattle.
Crab's stats...
are inflated because of the system he played in but you can’t deny that this guy has talent. He showed against Texas (who can play some defense) that he can compete at a high level. I didn’t become a believer until lately but I think the Chiefs should take a flier on Crabtree if he is available.
Me too
I didn’t become a believer until lately but I think the Chiefs should take a flier on Crabtree if he is available.
At this point, I wouldn’t be opposed to it. On the flip side, I understand the argument against him. It’s just that the Cards showed they can make the Super Bowl with a superstar WR corps, why not copy them?
Because it's possibly the least sustainable type of football team to build
A. Warner cashed in a whole lotta Jesus chips this season.
B. WRs are notorious prima donnas
C. We still don’t have the O-line for a decent pass block AND we don’t have a decent pass blocking RB
D. We dream of having a run D anywhere close to AZ’s
So we backload on the iffy-est position on football that tends to guarantee trade demands and big money fast without guarantees of production, and we don’t have even a guaranteed “game manager” of a QB in the bin, and two serviceable pass blockers?
Other than that, we kinda love it (no bullshit). In theory if Haley could rig it with Gailey, sure why not?
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Feb 2, 2009 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
There's money to be made we suspect on betting that the Chiefs trade down regardless
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Feb 2, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions
Disagree
That rarely happens in the top 5 of the draft. And it becomes increasingly unlikely with the rising salaries each year.
Good point on the prima donnas
I don’t remember hearing about personality issues on Fitz when he came out, but obviously today, the kid’s got maturity coming out the wazoo. He’s a good guy and I’m man-crushing on him.
What’s the story on Crabtree, personality-wise? Is he more like Fitzgerald or Jerry Rice, or is he the 2nd coming of Ocho Cinco?
-cw
"If there’s a god he’s laughing at us and our football team." - Ben Folds
Ocho Cinco
From what I have heard. I cant imagine him being at Johnsons level but he is outspoken.
"Sports don't build character, they reveal it." -Damon Bruce
thanks
i wondered too
Chan Gailey is the only guy with the balls to draft Tebow as a HB/TE/2nd QB and actually USE him that way -- alongside a pure passer to help bring on the future of the NFL. It sounds absurd but I swear if you saw my chalkboard....
REMEMBER: On average, a professional team should win the championship about 1 time in 30 years. So how demanding should we be of our college head coaches?
I remember a 13-3 season
that had the leagues most explosive offense that ranked #1 in the league in points per game but had a swiss cheese D and then they were spanked in the playoffs because of that D. Until the Chiefs stop anything on D I want to see 3rd pick spent on D.
"Sports don't build character, they reveal it." -Damon Bruce
That's retarted
Looking for a defensive player that’s not a reach at number three is just not going to happen. If we truly stick to a BPA were going to see a Lineman receiver or QB at #3. However if we switch to a 3-4 BJ Rajii would probably be the one we go after
Finally
You guys are coming around to my thinking. I have said for a while now that this guy needs more than serious consideration for our number 3 pick. If we get an unbelievable trade offer we should take it, if not he is the BPA, hands down.
Two star wide-recievers
can be a major headache for a franchise. How will Bowe react when Crabtree signs a much bigger contract. I like the idea of Crabtree wearing red, but management better make the right moves to avoid having an upset Bowe in the locker room.
good point
Chan Gailey is the only guy with the balls to draft Tebow as a HB/TE/2nd QB and actually USE him that way -- alongside a pure passer to help bring on the future of the NFL. It sounds absurd but I swear if you saw my chalkboard....
REMEMBER: On average, a professional team should win the championship about 1 time in 30 years. So how demanding should we be of our college head coaches?
But...
I agree with many of the above, however… Defense Wins Championships. Look Crabtree may or may not be the next Fitz, but Fitz didn’t win the game for the Cardinals. You may argue that Santonio Holmes did, but w/o Harrison’s interceptions for a TD, all is moot. Interception for a TD?! 100 yards! Take that away and SH’s phenomenal TD doesn’t matter and the Steelers amazing 2 minute drive doesn’t matter b/c they can’t make up the score difference. Tack on just 3 points on the Cards side (instead of the int/TD) and subtract 7 from the Steelers side and it’s a different game all together.
by Eastcoastransplant on Feb 2, 2009 2:36 PM CST reply actions
wasnt that
called back because they said his knee was down before he scored…? And Fitz touchdown would have won the cards the game if they had the ball last. He did what he was suppose to.
But yea i get your point about D. Cards had some big plays, but couldnt stop Pitts from scoring in the end
Really
Defense Wins Championships.
Tell that to the Patriots and Colts. The old addage that defense wins championships is true, but so does offense. Teams are passing more and more each year. It’s not just the defense.
You Need Both
If you’ve got an exceptional offense you need at least a league-average defense. If you’ve got a great defense, you need at least a league-average offense. It’s rare you’re ever going to have a team that’s great at both offense and defense, but championship clubs don’t need to be great at both so long as they don’t stink at either.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Neither will Mike Shanahan.
I agree (mostly)
If you’ve got an exceptional offense you need at least a league-average defense
I think our beloved Chiefs have provided ample evidence for this earlier in the decade =)
If you’ve got a great defense, you need at least a league-average offense
This I’m not so sure about – it seems you can get away with a great defense/less than stellar offense, more than you can with the inverse…did the Ravens have at least an average offense when they won the Championship?
It’s rare you’re ever going to have a team that’s great at both offense and defense
And when you do, you win the Super Bowl 55 to 10 =)
but championship clubs don’t need to be great at both so long as they don’t stink at either.
+ one googol
I wouldn't say the Pats
had a particularly weak defense when they were winning championships. They always had a top-flight CB like Samuel, one of the best LB corps in the league, and a solid D line. You can say that about Indy since they pretty much only have Bob Sanders and Freeney. But then again, they’ve only won one SB in recent years, and only because their D got healthy in time for the playoffs.
Offense has won more championships than Defense
Wasn’t there a post on this (or AA) that broke down the stats? Anyway I said we need to upgrade the D – and taking Aaron Curry at #3 would be a safe bet. Crabtree certainly would be another.
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Nope
…they reviewed it, but it was a TD. You are prolly thinking about Big Ben’s TD on the first drive that was called back.
Needs
I have not been an advocate of selecting Crabtree with the 3rd overall pick. Not enough value. Championships are won in the trenches. Plenty of other needs.
I don’t think the Chiefs are to the point where we start using a few high draft picks/big name FA signings to fill needs…we need the best damn football players we can get, regardless (absolutely regardless) of position…
if we can’t trade down (to get more damn good football players) and Crabtree is the best…we’ll draft him, even though we have Bowe.
If Monroe/Oher is the best, we’ll draft him, even though we have Albert
So let me see if I am on the same page
1st round we take Crabtree
2nd round we trade to NE for Cassel
and which of those two will help fix the worst defense in the NFL?
Im just sayin echoing again, again, again…
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
Ok already, if you don't agree with what I am saying, just don't email my mom again. She beat the crap out of me with my keyboard!
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
The argument for that
Would be that Crabtree is the BPA (up for debate) and getting your QBOTF should be the #1 priority regardless of other needs.
Maybe I just like to argue :)
I am a hard nose for a true MLB to lead our defense, but I won’t cry come April 20 if we have Crabtree.
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
Ok already, if you don't agree with what I am saying, just don't email my mom again. She beat the crap out of me with my keyboard!
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Actually with CP gone now
I really will get excited about whomever we draft!
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
Ok already, if you don't agree with what I am saying, just don't email my mom again. She beat the crap out of me with my keyboard!
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
I'll tell what will help the leagues worst D
Hiring a legit D coordinator and signing Bart Scott off FA. Dude is young and we got the cash to do it
We need a leader on D
I agree completly with that. However, Laurinaitis is not worth the #3 spot and a rookie cannot lead as a rookie. We use our cap room and bring in leadership for say Ray Lewis, and maybe trade down 4 or 4 times and get to the middle of the 1st round than select Laurinaitis to be an understudy.
Trading down
for more picks wouldn’t be a bad option. This years draft class looks to be deep at the LB position.
A team
that believes Cabtree is the second coming of Larry Fitzgerald and believe they are one player away from a championship. Philly?
I've been preaching that for a while
due to the ridiculous rookie salaries an Eagle trade down using two first and possibly a third or fourth would make sense. It would put the Eagles into prime contention and would put the chiefs two maybe three step closer to having an NFL ready roster. All sides win watch for this one. The Giants have also been rumored to be extremely interested in Crabtree. We could get a first, second/ next years first, and a fourth from them. Pioli loves to trade down look for something huge to happen. However, if Haley comes in and we don’t get a kings ransom for our #3 pick then Crabtree will be in red and gold. Haley will definitely go with Arizona’s BPA strategy in the draft and I honestly feel Crabtree’s sitting at the top of our board
Of course
lets not forget Todd Haley is a wide recievers couch, and Fitzgerald said he helped him take his game to the next level. I wonder how much input he will have on our draft pick
Crabtree would be a solid option at #3, but I’d rather dangle the right to draft him if and when he’s available at that slot. This draft class has been called weak at the top, and it might be, but it’s always relative. ALWAYS. And this year there are 4-6 guys who are work top-three picks. The only way a team like Cleveland or Cinci tries to trade up with KC is if they’re caught in a bidding war against a team like Buffalo or Green Bay.
Hypothetically speaking, the following trade would be exactly equal, going by the draft pick value chart that is at least the starting point for negotiation:
KC #3 overall (2200pts.)
for
BUF #11 overall in 2009 (1250pts.)
BUF #42 overall in 2009 (480pts.)
BUF 1st in 2010 (one-round value bump, equalling the 11th pick in the 2nd round, #43 overall, which is 470pts.)
I’d take that in a heartbeat. Heck, I’d even give up a little bit of value.
PS
And this goes for any prospect that a team absolutely loves. A guy like Andre Smith or Eugene Monroe could be worth it, or a fellow with a unique skill set, like BJ Raji (the only nose tackle with extraordinary size).
by burntorangehorn on Feb 2, 2009 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
+1
however I hope we could trade down a few spots and pick up Rajii if we hire Crennel as our D coordinator. Nobody knows what’s happening to Glenn Dorsey if we switch to a 3-4 but Rajii would be a very good start
I think Dorsey would make a fine, albeit expensive, defensive end in the 3-4, much like Richard Seymour did. Of course, keeping OTs’ hands off of himself would be more difficult for a 6’0"-6’1" Dorsey than it ever was for a 6’5" Seymour…
by burntorangehorn on Feb 2, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
free agency
I think free agency will show what we will do in the draft i hope we get some studs that way we could draft a guy like crabtree and not think twice . But we need a oline and a D before we need another reciever.
YOU all are FUNNY
I said this a week or so ago (even though I said we should take Aaron Curry over him) and everybody basically said the same thing: that it is not a major position of need and Bengals blah blah Lions shhhhh. You all are funny.
But.. take Aaron Curry.
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Here's one to consider
Sorry about the re-post, but this topic overlaps with this one:
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/2/2/744705/selecting-based-on-success
One player does not equal another. I say go for the overall team concepts rather than get emotionally hung up on one player with potential.
I have a guy working for me who grew up in Boston. He moved out here last year and we’ve had some pretty interesting conversations about the Chiefs since we landed Pioli. He’s a complete Patriot’s fanatic and he stays up on things as they relate to his "boys." I’m not siting him as an authoritative source, but he’s been living with the BB and SP regime since day one and he knows what it’s all about.
We got in a conversation about FA and drafting for the Chiefs this morning and I told him about the various arguments that people here at AP think we should do. He laughed his ass off. His commentary was something to the effect of "Dude, you should tell everyone on that board that you have Scott Fucking Pioli. You will not draft a quarterback and you will not draft a wide reciever with the 3rd overall pick. If there’s even a remote chance of trading that pick for more picks, you can bank on it."
His take was that even if there is the slightest chance of trading out of #3 then Pioli will find a way to make it happen. The part that he thought was the funniest was that so many of us spend all this time rationalizing our arguments for this pick or that free agent or who’s going to be the next head coach. He must have repeated the words "forget about it!" a dozen times throughout our conversation because he guarantees that Pioli will do something that nobody expects more often than not. His advice to all of us is "Get used to it!" with a big’ol "Welcome to my world" as a foot-note.
I’m not saying he’s right or wrong, but I see little evidence so far that would cause me to completely disregard what he’s been telling me.
I like it!!
This is going to be great!!! If we can get Crabtree, and land Cassel for a second round pick , it could shape up to be a New England type offense. But I think KC would have more fire power b/c of Crabtree and Bowe would add speed down feild. TG and Bradley would add the mid threat, and then LJ would be open to run all day!! I know what your thinking….I think for the D we need to get some big time FA to lead this young D. Then just let them all jell into a BIG TIME TEAM.
Fitzgerald????
This is a stupid post – if he’s anything like Fitzgerald he will go #1…of course nobody knows that yet…he is a WIDE RECEIVER and they are not tradionally good early #1’s…they need to take a fat guy for the offensive line.
This sounds familiar
A team with multiple spots where they need help but they use their top pick on a WR who is a “beast” and the “best player available”. Doesn’t that sound an awful lot like Detroit taking Charles Johnson. That turned out okay though, I mean Johnson really is a beast. I’m sure their fans don’t mind that they were 0-16 this year because of a weak D, a questionable QB situation and a bad O-line.
Ten sacks in a season! For crying out loud that's what I used to average per game using DT in Techmo Bowl!
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