As Far As They Can Go
by Patrick Allen on Dec 9, 2009 9:07 AM CST
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We were excited. I don't lame us. Things had been going south for a while and change, any change, was welcomed like as big bucket of money. The Chiefs were bringing in Super Bowl pedigree in Scott Pioli. They brought in more with Todd Haley. The Chiefs were going to turn into Patriots West, Matt Cassel was going to be a combination of Tom Brady, Kurt Warner and Trent Green. Dwayne Bowe would morph into a combination of Boldin and Fitgerald. The Broncos were sinking fast, the Chargers were getting old and the Raiders were still owned by Al Davis. The Chiefs were on the rise. Life was good and we were blind.
For all the talk about the Koolaid being passed around Chief Nation today I am surprised it wasn't brought up a lot more in August. As a Chiefs fan I have been wrestling with all the same questions you have. Is Cassel good enough? Is Haley a hard nosed task master who will get the best effort from his players or is he a raving lunatic who has lost his team. Is Scott Pioli a hot shot executive who is going to slowly and methodically turn the Chiefs into a perennial contender or is he an arrogant windbag too blinded by power to recognize his own shortcomings? Is Jason Whitlock going to break into my apartment and steal my Christmas Ham in the night? All very, very valid questions.
This morning I sat down and tried to put things in perspective. I asked myself a question. Why aren't the Chief improving? I could argue the Chiefs have improved, albeit mildly, because they have already upped their win total by 1 game this season. The certainly have a chance to double 2008's win total with winnable games against the Bills and Browns coming up. I could live with that. I could live with 4 wins this season, 8 wins next season and 10 or 11 wins in 2011. This scenario is only possible, of course, if the Chiefs are improving. I think they are and I think they will but I firmly believe the Chiefs must stay the course.
I looked up the Chiefs Sept. 3rd roster from the 2008 season. As you all know that roster was totally new. Herm Edwards tore down the Chiefs roster and started over. The results didn't come fast enough and Herm was fired. The mistake Herm made was that he didn't develop the guys he drafted fast enough. In the end I think that is why he was let go. I believe Clark genuinely wanted to give Herm a couple of years to build the team his way, they way he wanted to do it from the beginning. The leash was shorter on Herm, however, because he had a few drafts under his belt. It was expected, I think, that the Chiefs were going to have a rough year in 2008 and I don't think Clark expected the Glenn Dorsey's of the new draft class to become Pro Bowlers overnight. The last straw for Herm was the failures of the Tank Tyler's, Turk McBride's and Bernard Pollard's. Guys that should have been coming around and hitting their stride but weren't. There was no reason to believe that Herm's rebuild was going to go anywhere so Clark hired Pioli and Pioli cut Herm lose.
I believe we will all look back on 2008 as a truly lost season. It was all for nothing. It was year one of a rebuild that was going nowhere. We are now not in year 2 of the rebuild, but year 1 again. It is Groundhog Day Kansas City Chiefs style. Here are the players who were on that Sept. 3rd 2008 Chiefs Roster that were either cut, traded, retired, or moved to IR this season. Regardless of their exit they are not on the field for the Chiefs right now.
97 Brian Johnston DE
99 T.J. Jackson DT
93 Tank Tyler DT
88 Tony Gonzalez TE
90 Turk McBride DE
84 John Paul Foschi TE
85 Will Franklin WR
77 Damion McIntosh T
80 Jeff Webb WR
81 Devard Darling WR
73 Adrian Jones G
70 Alfonso Boone DE
65 Herb Taylor T
59 Donnie Edwards LB
60 Brian De La Puente G
55 Pat Thomas LB
49 Bernard Pollard S
50 Napoleon Harris LB
51 Jean-Philippe Darche C
52 Erik Walden LB
44 Jarrad Page S
30 B.J. Sams CB
31 Maurice Leggett CB
26 Jackie Battle RB
27 Larry Johnson RB
17 Maurice Price WR
21 Kolby Smith RB
22 Dimitri Patterson CB
23 Patrick Surtain CB
4 Tyler Thigpen QB
9 Nick Novak K
11 Damon Huard QB
Here is who is left.
2 Dustin Colquitt P
12 Brodie Croyle QB
24 Brandon Flowers CB
25 Jamaal Charles RB
47 Jon McGraw S
42 Mike Cox RB
53 Demorrio Williams LB
54 Brian Waters G
56 Derrick Johnson LB
64 Rudy Niswanger C
67 Barry Richardson T
72 Glenn Dorsey DT
74 Wade Smith C
76 Branden Albert T
82 Dwayne Bowe WR
87 Brad Cottam TE
91 Tamba Hali DE
95 Ron Edwards DT
This team has no identity. Most of these men hardly know one another. The 3 receiving targets Matt Cassel has weren't even in training camp! That small group of players above are some of the Chiefs best players. Hali in a new position is doing very well and showing improvement, same goes for Dorsey. Demarrio Williams is having one of his best seasons as a pro in a defense he has never played in. Dwayne Bowe, Brian Waters, Flowers, Carr, Collquitt all have shown they can play. John McGraw is having solid season. Jamaal Charles has proved that if he can learn to hang on to the ball that he can be a major offensive threat. There are pieces here but the house is far from built.
So. Are the Chiefs improving? Eh...not really. A little. At least a win or two better than last year. This doesn't really matter though because I believe the Chiefs are at critical mass. These Chiefs have gone about as far as they can go. They need help, they need reinforcements. They can't really get any better with the players they have. All year they new regime has been doing the best they can with the players they have and they have been constantly turning over the roster trying to improve it. Yes, it would be nice to see improvement on the field but some of these men just aren't going to get any better.
There are signs of hope on the roster. Players like Andy Studebaker, Javon Belcher, Lance Long, Jamaal Charles and yes, even Matt Cassel have shown signs that the could be part of the future. There have been flashes from these players and I can't remember a lot of flashes from the 2008 roster from anyone other than Tyler Thigpen. We all know now, of course, that he was a mirage created by Tony Gonzalez.
If the Chiefs fire Haley and dump Cassel after the season then get ready to become the Cleveland Browns or the Detroit Lions. Get ready to become the Oakland Raiders because that is what will happen to the Chiefs. Every time the Chiefs bring in a new coach they are starting over. If a coach inherits a team like the Broncos or Colts he can probably keep it going. The key here is inheriting a team that has a solid talent base in place. Coach Vermiel inherited a fairly solid talent base from Marty. He was able to keep The Chiefs respectable, winning 6 or 7 games, while he built his team. But these Chiefs are not last years Shannahan's Broncos, Marty's Chiefs and they sure as hell aren't Dungy's Colts. The team Todd Haley got was Herm Edwards' rebuild team. Ouch!
The Chiefs are currently an expansion team. It is unfair to judge the new regime too harshly in their first year with an expansion team. It is how they chose to build their team from here on out that will determine whether or not they are the men for the job. They can only import so many players a year. They can only coach guys up so much during the season. It will take time. Probably about 3 years before they have a solid rotation of "their guys" on the field. When that day comes, once Scott Pioli and Todd Haley have built their team, if the Chiefs are still only winning 3 or 4 games a year then we will know they have failed. Then it will be time for them to go. But not now. Not yet.
Release them now and a bad team stays in turmoil. The philosophy changes again, the roster turns over, the fans and players tune out. For better or for worse, what the Chiefs need now is two or three years of stability. They need a chance to build an identity as a team, as a coaching staff and as a front office. These men aren't responsible for the 2006, 2007 and 2008 seasons. They are responsible for 2009, 2010 and 2011. This is the start. Hang in there and get your measuring stick out at the end of NEXT season to see how far these Chiefs have come. Otherwise it will be Groundhog Day; The Kansas City Chiefs Edition...and it won't be a good day.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Great Read. rec.
Your photo reminds me of a quote that may apply here “The problem with the future is that it keeps turning into the present”
I agree that many of these moves are intended to build a core of player that will be the foundation of future championship teams. I think that many of the players that are left over will end up in that core. There are still some cuts to be made in the future, but I think we have trimmed out players so that what we are left with is highly talented, highly motivated players. I love where we are going, but it has been painful to watch the past few weeks.
Agreed the last few weeks have been hard
but we have played some good ass teams this year. 9 of the Chiefs 11 games this year have been against teams that still have a legitimate shot to make the playoffs.
We turned out to have a really hard schedule. Like, really, really hard.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 9, 2009 9:32 AM CST up reply actions
The teams we have played so far
have a combined record of 66-54!
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 9, 2009 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed. We have played a lot of good teams
and even some mediocre teams on streaks or in grooves, whatever you want to call it. Thats what gives me hope that there really has been improvement this year. There have been flashes of stardom each game. If we can just get to where we have the right amount of talent to make those flashes more consistent, we will be just fine.
by chiefsandcigars on Dec 9, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
We need quality FA's to go along with our draft picks...
With playing the 4-3 and a college type offense last year, I think it was hard for them to see what we really had-so they get a pass on this year. If we don’t bring in any good FA’s it’s going to be another long season…Time to get out the check book Pioli.
rec’d
I agree
we need to bring in a lot of help.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 9, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
Just one counter view
We ARE the Browns and Lions. That is what I think fans don’t get. We have gone 4-12, 2-14, and lets say 4-12.
We have come face to face with the floundering franchise…and it is us.
Bewsaf
thanks man
but we aren’t the Browns and Lions yet.
We need abour 3 or 4 more years or terrible seasons to hit that level.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 9, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Didn't the Browns go 10-6 in 2007?
Browns actually have a good core of young players. They just have the worst coach in professional sports and an owner who is obviously clueless on how to run a football team (Let the coach hire and fire the GM)
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 9, 2009 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
I follow the Browns being from Cleveland
they did go 10 and 6 but it was a fluke. They had a historically easy schedule and a new QB with a cannon arm that teams didn’t have any tape on in Anderson. They also had Jureviciusas a vet WR presence and Edwards decided to catch balls for a year.
They Savage and Crennel got hard ons because they thought they could make a playoff run. They traded away all their draft picks to try to fill their perceived holes. The mortgaged the teams future on one season because both their jobs were on the line. Anderson had amazing potential at QB but he was still very raw.
The next season they faced one of the hardest schedules in the league. The whole team got Staff infections, Jurevicius missed the season and retired, Edwards went back to dropping every pass thrown to him. Anderson started throwing picks as teams adjusted to him and rather than let him grow as a QB (who had made the freaking Pro Bowl the year before) they benched him in favor of the popular Quinn (because their jobs were on the line) who came in, played below average and got hurt. DA came back. His confidence destroyed. The teams confidence destroyed. Wenslow was a locker room distraction.
The whole thing blew up. They fired Crennel. Then Man Genius came in, hired a basket case GM (who has now been fired) shipped off all of their good, young players rather than try to coach them up and traded away all his draft picks for later picks and a bunch of lame ass players from the Jets.
The Browns were a young team with a lot of potential and talent. They had everything going for them. They had a season that went better than it should of because of an easy schedule. And what did they do? They had a knee jerk reaction and tried to win the Super Bowl in one off season. This is what I am talking about with the Chiefs. the Browns were going to take a step back the next season due to their schedule and a developing QB. Instead of fostering team growth and making smart personnel moves to set themselves up to be successful for the next decade they screwed it all up and made a bunch of dumb ass signings and traded away their draft picks. They should have traded Quinn away that off season to remove the distraction and put all their efforts into developing Anderson, who I still think could be a good QB but the Browns have ruined him.
Let’s develop Cassel and surround him with weapons like he had in NE. Let’s get a line to protect him. Let’s not overreact and sign Colt McCoy so he can come here behind no line, with no receivers and have his career ruined by knee jerk reaction management and terrible protection. Let’s teach Jamaal how to hold on to the football and give him another solid back to lighten his load. Let’s give him WR’s who can block so when he bounces outside he can take it to the house.
Let’s build with out young talent instead of going the way of the Browns.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 9, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Interesting take Patrick...
Do you think DA would be available as a backup?
He’s awfully slow-footed and immobile, but has a cannon arm and is currently playing in another version of this offense. He’s like a taller Croyle, but without mobility.
Having a talent like him in KC to motivate Cassel can’t hurt us in the least. And it totally fits with the “build young, keep growing” philosophy.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 9, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree
He’s awfully slow-footed and immobile
I remember him running for 30 yards against the Chiefs a couple years ago!
I jest obviously, that might be the single most frustrating play in Chiefs history. I just remember him lumbering down the sidelines and noone wanted to tackle him. I threw my shoe at the TV
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 9, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL...you and me both.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 9, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
I think DA is done in Cleveland
I am not sure what his contract situation is.
Another example of how dumb Mangini is; he picks Quinn to be the starter then yanks him after a couple of games. What a jackass. The Browns were going to stink this year. Leave the kid in and see what he has got. The only smart thing he did was put him back in. That offense is TERRIBLE. Worse than ours. Still, Quinn has managed to come around a little bit down the stretch here. He may have a chance to hold on to the position.
I think DA will go somewhere and have a chance. His name got dragged through the mud this year trying to play for that offense. He is a gunslinger and there is no one to sling to in Cleveland. I would not be surprised to see him go on to have an actual career but Cleveland has done everything in their power to ruin him.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 9, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure
That offense is TERRIBLE. Worse than ours
They moved the ball up and down the field last weekend against San Diego.
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 9, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions
I think he has a huge $$$ contract
That could be an issue
"The way this works is you string together some good games, some good practices and you get momentum and you gain confidence," linebacker Mike Vrabel said. "It can be a real positive for your team. It builds on itself."
Historically we aren't
But as of right now we are on the same level as those teams.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
Great post as always PA and rec'd
I agree. I know it’s hard to believe but I don’t want to strt fresh again either. continuity comes with time. It would be disasterous to start from ground zero again at this point.
It will be a 4 to 5 year project here. We are terrible. Really terrible. I imagine Haley has done his best being a rookie HC and with the rag tag bunch he’s got to work with.
Here’s a thought for you. Well never mind for now actually. BUt good post and I agree.
Rec!
Don’t have much time to comment but your article is well written.
I agree if we Fire Haley and dump Cassel this offseason, we will become a joke in the NFL.
"I’d go to battle with him every day of the week." Todd Haley on Matt Cassel
This statement is why I am on the Cassel train, drinkin the Kool-Aid!
Totally agree PA...
Now the question becomes, “Who are the reinforcements going to be?”.
I see a transition on the coaching staff—2 positions on offense, but as many as 4 on defense. I have a hard time believing that Haley wants to run a gimmick defense forever, and that seems to be all Pendergast runs. Further, I doubt our team goes without an OC or a quarterback coach in 2010. Haley “may” keep playcalling responsibilities…but even if he does, losing some of the extra coaching chores that come with scheming an offense and developing our passers can only help.
I also think that this is our offseason to grab the players who will help KC grow into a Super Bowl team. Smart FA spending and a balanced draft will help fill a lot of the holes on this club.
In one year we’ll really be able to tell how this team is going to turn out. Until that point, I’m refusing to sip too much Kool-Aid OR hit the Panic Button.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
+2
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
When you remain fundamentally unsound, you resort to gimmickry.
Pendergast had that AZ D flying around like I like to see down the stretch last year.
They’re most of the way to having a solid front 7, and a couple-few DBs away from a solid secondary. In the 3-4, you go with some bigger LBs and bigger DL’s and you balance it with SPEED at at least one of the LB positions and in the secondary. Chiefs have a slow secondary, their best cover corner is 5’9’’.
They’re getting away from the cover-2, but still have mostly cover-2 corners, and they didn’t secure a 3-4 NT. Edwards is fair, but not great. I was surprised at how they failed to nail the NT spot, but bad a reach as Jackson was for DE, it would’ve been as much or more of a reach for Ron Brace, and I think they fully expected Tank Tyler to come into his own, and he didn’t.
Give Clancy some more speed and ability in the secondary, a bona fide 3-4 NT, and then see what you think of him. I expect Crennel is a coordinator whose name was made on great talent, and Clancy’s is one whose reputation has been stained by defenses in transition. I’d like to see him get another year or even two, while this defense grows and matures. I think he has the right stuff.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
I appreciate a dissenting opinion.
Especially an informed one…hmills, I truly hope you’re right and I’m wrong (if he stays). Thanks for your insight.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 11, 2009 12:13 AM CST up reply actions
Great post PA. I do think that we need a few quality FA's. In the pre-game last
week, I heard them say that Denver picked up 12 good FA’s. KC never had that chance. It was too late for Pioli and Haley to really know what they had. This year they will be ready and hopefully, they make some key moves. At least last year they did grap Cassel and Vrable, this year, hopefully they will get some others. For those that are knocking Cassel, would they rather have Denver’s Orton?
Those FA's look a lot better
because they were walking on an 8-8 team with a solid base.
Take Randy Moss in Oakland. Great player on a terrible team. Good free agent pick up for the Raiders? No. Because they blew a bunch of money on a guy, who while good, could not help them because the rest of the team sucked.
We need a base in place from the draft. As the team grows I think our FA pickups will look better and better. Think about it. I bet Mike Vrabel would have looked like a brilliant pickup for say, the Colts than he does for the Chiefs.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 9, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
I still think we'll be a viable market for free agents.
If things don’t get better in 2010 we won’t, but it could still happen this offseason. There’s been enough positive publicity about Haley from the Cards, to balance out everything Whitlock’s churned out this year.
Only time will tell.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 9, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
Just out:
The Broncos have a new tackle in town, announcing the signing of free agent Herb Taylor on Wednesday. After leaving last Sunday’s game at Kansas City, Ryan Harris was also placed on injured reserve with a toe injury.
I really think we gave up on Taylor too early.
Cutting him was a numbers game in training camp. Richardson offers more versatility (he’s taller and stronger), and at that point we still had McSack at RT…I suspect that Taylor’s light frame hurt him with this regime. He’s built for a zone scheme at this level, and we still run enough man to make his lack of size a liability.
All that being said, I believe Herb’s got a future in the NFL. Sadly, the Donks might help him find it.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 9, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rumblings from Mile High Report are that McDaniels is likely to migrate toward bigger along the offensive front.
Herb Taylor is likely a poor man’s choice for a team in trouble at tackle late in the season.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Wonder how he'll pan out, then. He never got much bigger than three bills here.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 11, 2009 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
I think most of our #1's are #2's.
TE-needs help
C-needs help
PR-needs help
OL-2 starters
S-needs help
DL-2 starters
LB-1 or 2 starters
WR-1 or 2 starters
RB-Charles seems to be good,but we need a bruiser to help him out.
At least we will have depth when we get better players. What do you think?
That's about it
if we want to be really competitive I’d add a shutdown CB…….Carr is good, but he’s not shutdown by any means…..
by Hail2DaChiefs on Dec 9, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
Could Carr be our BEAST at FS?
He’s an average to above average CB but might be a Pro Bowler in center field.
Thoughts…?
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 9, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
I've been wondering about that as well.
I don’t remember hearing about him getting reps at FS, but it’s possible.
by Hail2DaChiefs on Dec 9, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions
I would put Carr on the Bigger WR's and Flowers on the faster WR's
Carr could be nickel and Leggett will be back next year. A CB would be a nice pickup, and then Carr might be tried at S
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
My take's a little different...not by much.
TE-starter needed. Pope’s a pass-catching #2 and ST’er.
C-starter needed. Niswanger might be better as a backup G/C. He can play…just not consistently, especially against extreme quickness or massive NT’s. Too weak/too tall to start?
PR-needs help.
OL-2 starters needed. RG, C come to mind.
S-needs help. Is that help on-roster (Carr to FS, Morgan at SS?) A new DB coach might help?
DL-starter needed, at NT. Jackson and Dorsey will be fine, folks. And imagine Edwards as a sub at NT, with Magee and Gilberry rotating in? A new coach would help here too, I think.
LB-2 starters. We need a legit MLB, and an upgrade over Vrabel.
WR-1 starter. Speed and route-running are priority (Bernard Berrian via trade??…just daydreaming).
RB-1 PT starter, namely a bruiser to go with J-Chuck.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 9, 2009 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rec
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Thanks man.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 10, 2009 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
rec'd Patrick - incredible post - well done and well researched
scary thing is you’re pretty much right on all of it … and I don’t see Pioli the Genius GM, I see Pioli the Arrogant Windbag … Haley seems to have learned SOME bit of humility, but it could well be a case of “too little, too late” after his summer and early fall of ranting and demotions
it’s so sad to me to see the turnover this past year – what a team one could build just from some of the guys tossed to the curb (22 guys on the street? sure, I could win with that bunch Pioli’s sent packing)
I’ve said all year long that Herm wasn’t given enough time … most of the players from his 2008 draft – the first year he really had freedom to start a rebuild – are still with the team – and that in itself speaks a lot … his first 2 yrs it was Carl’s show, Carl and the Oldtimers, and Herm wasn’t allowed to start the rebuild process until a year ago, more’s the pity
I agree with your assessment of this being an “expansion team” right now – sad what Pioli’s done, sad that the coaches couldn’t or wouldn’t do more with some of the players young they had (Pollard certainly comes to mind) – I see this team as going backwards, a year wasted and then some
one thing you won’t need to worry about, Patrick, is your Christmas Ham … Whitlock only steals the ribs
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Upamtn, I've got a confession to make.
I just don’t see where your extreme, nearly personal dislike of Scott Pioli comes from. So many of your posts on AP dog everything about the man—and I just don’t see how, why, or where. I’m not trying to call you out or make you upset…I guess I just don’t understand the nature of your grudge.
“I see Pioli the Arrogant Windbag … " — but the man rarely says anything. And when he does, it’s always about scouting, building a winner, etc.
“sad what Pioli’s done, sad that the coaches couldn’t or wouldn’t do more with some of the players young they had (Pollard certainly comes to mind)” - outside of cutting CRAP like McSack and bringing in useful players like O’Callagahan and Leonard Pope? It seems to me like an improvement. But I DO agree here on some of our young talent getting away-Herbie Taylor comes to my mind.
I’m upset at his 2009 draft, but it smacks of his 2000 draft with NE—no one really special, everyone basically chosen w/ the old regime’s scouting reports. At the same time, that doesn’t excuse our lack of speed at key positions, either.
I guess I’m looking to be enlightened—an article I haven’t read, or a clip I haven’t seen—as to why Pioli’s your goat of choice.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 9, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
Ignore the strikeout, btw...just read right through it.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 9, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
good and fair question ... perhaps it IS his silence that gets to me, or the secrecy that surrounds the offices at 1 Arrowhead Drive
the way former players have been “locked out” – Whitlock’s column from several months ago where he told of meeting Pioli and Haley for lunch, just after Haley was hired, and every time he asked Haley a question, Pioli would jump in and answer it …
maybe because he came in here and casually dismissed Edwards with absolutely NO plan and NO clue who was on the roster, what the team was about, or how to go about doing ANYTHING to fix it (that’s evident in the 2009 draft, as well as FA signings or lack thereof) – Pioli came in and it was painfully clear he hadn’t done his homework and had no intention of drafting in an intelligent, logical manner that would actually HELP the team
finally, the whole “Right 53” smacks of arrogant nonsense … when some Unknown Unidentifiable Unspeakable “quality” is more important than TALENT – on a team coming off a 2-14 season, no less – there’s a HUGE issue (in my mind) … Page, Pollard and others would be able to help this team right now (let’s see: Kenny Smith? great pickup, right … )
no, from my POV Pioli’s done about as much damage in the last 11 months as others claim Carl (and Herm) did in several previous years (and again, I blame our decline the last few years on Carl, not on Herm)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
The right 53 is not nonsense at all.
A championship team is made up of championship players, and that doesn’t always mean the most talented ones. It means the ones who will work their asses off and be prepared to play on Sunday. It means guys who are more interested in the success of the team than they are in bragging about their own individual accomplishments. I know this example has been beaten to death, but take TO as an example. Talented player? Hell yes. But he is also staggeringly self-absorbed and has destroyed every team he has played for. He is the very definition of a locker room cancer. Look at teams like the Washington Redskins where the idiot owner slings money around on name free agents with no concern whatsoever for team chemistry (Dan Snyder would be a terrible fantasy league player). Does anybody look at Washington as a model franchise? If the most talented player is a lazy self-centered asshole who doesn’t know the playbook or gets arrested or parties too hard or fails drug tests or simply shows up to cash a paycheck, then you will never win with guys like that.
Also, whenever I’ve heard Pioli speak in interviews he comes off as articulate and humble. If you’re going to call Pioli arrogant and then site Whitlock as a source then you might want to reconsider that thinking. Is there a person alive with more undeserved arrogance that Whitlock?
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
If someone has Hank Stram's list
I think I recall something very much like “the right 53” not in the same words, but as it takes a whole team not individuals to win.
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
This Chiefs team is closer to a new expansion team than it is a playoff contender, your expectations should match that.
Slappy, I agree TO A POINT with you ... hell, I wouldn't want TO either
then again, att the time he was with the Raiders i wouldn’t have wanted Moss either … I would NOT have seen Moss, at that point in time, as being a TEAM player
but when the talent level is thin to begin with, you don’t toss guys to the curb … especially young guys with talent who can be taught, coached, mentored and brought along … team chemistry? what kind of team chemistry can the Chiefs ever possibly home to have with the ungodly turnover ratio they’ve had this year? and it CONTINUES …
you hate Whitlock, I like the guy … you like Pioli, I don’t … you think continued massive turnover and bringing in over the hill talentless guys helps the team, I don’t …
so, we agree to disagree … and so it goes
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
When the talent level is thin you don't bring in people who might be a detriment to your team in the long term.
That’s called being desperate and desperation doesn’t help build a team. We saw it at the end of Marty’s run as head coach here, when they brought in guys like Bam Morris who literally was running a drug distribution operation while he played for the Chiefs. And I don’t think over the hill players with no talent are part of the right 53. I know it’s not totally the same thing, but I coached high school sports and I can tell you with total certainty that some very talented athletes get I think the turnover we’ve seen to the roster this year is something specific to this year. I think Pioli knew there was no way in hell this team was going to be competitive this year so they are throwing a bunch of shit at the wall and seeing what will stick. They’ve been doing the same sort of experimentation with their coaching staff as well, moving coaches from the press box to the sideline to see which works best. Keep in mind that Pioli was hired very late and Haley wasn’t hired until after the Superbowl. Pioli was hired so late that he ran this year’s draft with pretty much Carl’s scouting department. I think at the end of this season they will know what they have got and then move forward.
I’ve often wondered why so many people on sites like this one (or guys like Whitlock) didn’t go into coaching or sports management. I love it when people think they really know better how to build a team than a guy who won three Superbowls this decade (almost 4) and was just named executive of the decade by Sports Illustrated.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
"I don’t think over the hill players with no talent are part of the right 53"
Slappy, I totally agree with you there – that’s what Carl did Herm’s first two years, sadly it’s also what Pioli’s done here this year , some of the way over the hill WR’s they brought it early on … Kenny Smith, just released, hadn’t played in 6 years, what the ehll was that about???
sorry, I don’t see “throwing shit at the wall to see if it sticks” as any kind of “plan” – I realize the hiring of Haley/coaches was “late” but good lord, not THAT late – everyone in football knew we had a horrible O-Line, and bringing in a new “franchise QB” you’d think that protecting said investment would be a priority, but it wasn’t even close (not until training camp started and they brought in some stranded Dolphins)
maybe I expect too much, but then too, maybe Pioli doesn’t have that magic plan, maybe it was more Belichick than Pioli, maybe it was luck … still wish he’d kept Herm and let him continue the rebuild from last year (but with a gameday sideline assistant – Herm is a great guy, knows his stuff but yes, horrible game management, Haley isn’t much better)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
btw Slappy ... I think Pioli's FIRST mistake was keeping LJ ... it's been all downhill from there
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
I don't think LJ was a mistake.
You give him the opportunity to change, see if a new regime brings something out of him (ala Moss in NE), see if he will be a contributor to your program.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
Wow. Yall got pretty deep. Good points on both sides. I dunno, its a tie.
by motrepip on Dec 9, 2009 4:10 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Agree
I love AP!
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Slappy, by that reasoning, even TO would be worth a shot, given the "new regime"
my own take is that LJ had his chances (plural) and blew it … we pretty much all knew the guy was a time bomb waiting to explode, and he did
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Actually, Snyder builds his teams like he's playing FFL, rather than the real thing.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Mtn--really appreciate your thoughtful, honest answer.
If I understand your reply to my question, you feel like Pioli: a) Initially arrived without any idea of what to do with this franchise, b) fired Herm because he was here beforehand, c) drafted without any idea about how the pieces fit in with the existing team, and d) is running the team through/around/without Haley. For you, his entry has been nothing but a show of arrogance and hubris. You cite Whitlock as a source for some of your information—and I’m sure there are a ton of other sites/papers you read, too.
Your take is very different from mine—no less thought out, evidenced or honest—just different.
I see this season as a necessary bloodletting. I feel like our “best” talent (yes, I’m pointing my fat Iowa finger right at Pollard) wasn’t motivated to be good, much less great. I feel as though our team culture became clubby and fraternal, like a reunion of friends unfocused on results. I’ve also found Pioli to be humble, thoughtful and succinct for the most part.
That being said, I’m not sure that a culture of total silence/secrecy breeds any kind of champion, and I think that things will change, and improve, with time and experience. I see a difference in Haley already. For me, I borrow my learnin’ from Bob Gretz, Joel and Chris, PFT, and even rumor-maker Mike Lombardi.
I’m also not sure that things are as dire as Whitlock likes to write, or if the incidents that he talks about are his perception rather than full reality. That being said, he gets into the pressers, asks tough questions, and gives us a writeup we can dissect as we see fit. He’s doing his job, and you and I are doing ours: Talking about the Chiefs, over a virtual water cooler.
I appreciate the times when we disagree, and the times when you say what I want to before I’ve even logged on. Gracias sir.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
Go, my brother - your take on my views of Pioli are 100% spot on, nice call
and I appreciate that we can see the same thing from different sides, and agree to disagree, yet still be civil about our disagreements, at the same time being passionate about what we feel, and what we care about: the Chiefs
you could be right about the “fraternal brotherhood unfocused freinds” – of course, when you get guys making a million/year or more you know there’s going to be SOME complacency – carrot or stick? Herm or Haley? maybe something in between?
I’m not at all sold on the “bloodletting” thing, especially ar the expense of what precious little talent we had to begin with – Pioli, Haley and all the rest are professionals, they get paid to coach, teach and yes, motivate – that’s a large part of their job – look at a guy like Pollard: has problems here, gets benched, gets cut, goes to Houston and thrives … that tells me he has talent BUT that our staff can’t bring it out in him, and therefore they take the “easy” way out and say he’s “not the Right 53” and send him packing, then find another whipping boy, less talented to be sure, but one who’ll be a good boy and say “yes, Sir” at the right time (an analogy if you will)
Whitlock: I like the guy because he stirs the pot and gets us to think critically – and I like that he’s willing to take a stand on issues, not just write about events, but really tell people what he feels and why
thank you for your posts, your thoughts, your ideas and your understanding, kind Sir
y muchas gracias, Senor!
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
My thing is...
that I figured that after training camp 16 games(including pre-season) that we would see improvement by now, some promise, something to get us excited about next yr. Regardless of talent, after this long, guys on this team should be “getting it” by now. Maybe not winning, but at least being competitive. Getting blown out two weeks in a row by division rival is unacceptable. I just dont like the decisions that are being made…or not being made…It took LJ acting like a fuckin idiot again for him to lose his job to Charles. If LJ never twitted, where do you think he would be right now?…if you said “in the starting lineup” then you think like i do. I would give you more examples of bad decisions that I have seen but that would make this post much longer than it already is.
Build the team through the draft
Good post. The Chiefs need to concentrate rebuilding efforts in the draft. This is a better formula for long-term success than going into the expensive FA market. FA’s can help, but the core of any successful NFL team has been the players they drafted. If the team were to go into the more expensive FA market then that player needs to be an impact D player. Improve the D in the off-season and the Chiefs could be more competitive next season than many believe they can.
Good Post and Rec'ed
you said what I have been trying to say in many scattered comments. There is improvement, albeit slow but it is progress, The draft was held before we could see who and what we had and before the new scouting people were brought in. Anyone that expected the Chiefs to be a playoff contender this season was only fooling themselves, we did not have the talent that Denver did to start with, we had what Herm left us with. I’m not saying Herm messed this team over per say, his vision was just going to take longer than anyone expected and Mr. Hunt had had enough. When Pioli was brought in it was already late into the off season, and he knew who he wanted for a head coach, thus he waited til after the super bowl to make the offer. By now most of the FA’s are no longer available and we have to see what’s left.
I think with time now on our side things can change and improve, We have to give them a chance to bring things together and to keep reminding ourselves that we are much closer to an expansion team right now. It is where we go from here that will be the future of the Chiefs, and that we must keep our expectations in line to where the Chiefs really are rather than where we wish they were, or have been in the past.
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
This Chiefs team is closer to a new expansion team than it is a playoff contender, your expectations should match that.
we had what Herm left us with.
and didn’t improve from that point. Not really. Not significantly. If we started in the basement and made it up a few steps, but not quite to the kitchen, that would be ok. We are still in the basement.
not saying Herm messed this team over per say, his vision was just going to take longer than anyone expected and Mr. Hunt had had enough.
I think Clark had enough with CP. He still liked Herm and his vision. Clark gave in to Pioli’s desire to get a new coach (understandable to let your new GM pick a coach). I do not think Clark wanted Herm gone.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Dec 9, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
I agree ... I think Clark hoped to keep Herm another year or two, and he should have
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Herm talks a good game, but he's a disaster as a head coach.
His team lost games last year because they were out of shape. That’s inexcusable at any level of coaching, it’s something that is simply too easy to fix.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
I think that Pioli didn't make any huge moves this year on purpose
This is all just my speculation, but I think he had so little faith in the scouting and coaching going on in the old administration (call that ego if you want) that he basically decided to see what this team could do with coaches he “approved”. I don’t have a huge problem with that philosophy in that if you want to build for the long hall you don’t want to make any moves too soon that might set you back. Then as the season has gone on they have cut or traded the guys that they now know won’t be part of the long term plan. I would guess that you see a lot more offseason moves now that Pioli has had time to get his people in place and knows who he wants to build around.
Feeling "The Love" and "Drinking the Kool AId"
We better.
I’ve been saying for a while now that this next offseason has to be HUGE in order for Pioli to earn any kind of respect for his supposed talents. A lot of moves have to be made. The draft has to turn out at least 3 starters, and 1 of them has to be a hands down stud. He has to wheel and deal in the free agency and turn up at least 2 starters there. All in all I’m looking for 5 long term starters to be added this offseason. I think that’s a fair expectation.
November 22nd 2009: Chiefs win in OT vs the Steelers 27-24. This could be the turning point for the Chiefs to get back to being respected.
by Red N Gold Beast on Dec 9, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
I think this is exactly what they're doing.
Pioli had no idea what he had when he took over the team, had no idea which players would respond to a coach that instilled some actual discipline in them. When your team is simply too fat to compete at the professional level (or at the high school level for that matter) you are a complete failure and embarrassment as a coach, so I’m glad Herm was shown the door. He is where should always have been, in the TV studio. I think after this season is over Pioli and Haley know exactly what cards they hold and will move forward.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
When we can't agree on anything the best solution is to find the common ground...
Damn you Carl Peterson…
You guys Patrick and Jon are killing me, I was working on a post:)
Quarterbacks:
Matt Cassel QB 28 6th year Pro*
Brodie Croyle QB 27 5th year Pro
Matt Gutierrez QB 26 4th year Pro
Offensive Lineman:
Mike Goff G 34 13th year Pro+
Brian Waters G 33 11th year Pro*
Wade Smith C 29 8th year Pro*
Rudy Niswanger C 28 5th year Pro*
Ikechuku Ndukwe T 28 4th year Pro
Ryan O’Callaghan T 27 5th year Pro*
Andy Alleman G 26 4th year Pro
Branden Albert T 26 3rd year Pro*
Darryl Harris G 25 2nd year Pro^
Colin Brown G 24 2nd year Pro+
Barry Richardson T 24 3rd year Pro
Jermail Porter OL 24 2nd year Pro^
Tight Ends:
Sean Ryan TE 30 7th year Pro
Leonard Pope TE 26 5th year Pro*
Brad Cottam TE 25 3rd year Pro
Jake O’Connell TE 24 2nd year Pro
Wide Receivers:
Chris Chambers WR 31 10th year Pro*
Bobby Wade WR 29 8th year Pro
Mark Bradley WR 28 6th year Pro
Terrance Copper WR 28 7th year Pro
Devard Darling WR 28 7th year Pro+
Quinten Lawrence WR 25 2nd year Pro
Dwayne Bowe WR 25 4th year Pro*
Lance Long WR 25 2nd year Pro
Running Backs:
Jackie Battle RB 26 3rd year Pro+
Tim Castille RB 26 4th year Pro*
Kolby Smith RB 25 4th year Pro+
Dantrelle Savage RB 25 3rd year Pro
Mike Cox FB 25 3rd year Pro
Javarris Williams RB 24 2nd year Pro
Kestahn Moore RB 23 1st year Pro
Jamaal Charles RB 23 3rd year Pro*
Starter *
IR +
PS ^
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
I wanted to talk about roster and youth and how many years we could expect.
Again Bowe is 24 and Charles is 22, Cassel if he gets it going has 10 years of service left.
The Specialists are going to be here 4ever. The O-line can play together minus Waters for 10 Years. We have pieces we need, not another rebuild.
Patience Child
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Steve...what do you know about youth??
lol jk!
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
I dream about it Matt:)
Good to see ya!
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
The ages and years Pro is Training Camp 2010 in July 2010
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
A True Expansion team
They drafted a QB with the No.1 Overall Pick. And then they also traded for a hyped and pricey backup from Atlanta. Here’s how the other Texans are doing (amid we’re the original Texans)
This is going to be a long long road. There is no way I am going to be suckered into committing 5-8 years of season tickets when my neighbors are unemployed and everyone I used to work with are either looking for a new job or got laid off.
Sorry Clark! Your new and improved Arrowhead will continue to empty out. Too bad if its going to be blacked out games. Some of us may as well not watch the game, at least we’d be in a happier mood at 4pm on Sundays.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 9, 2009 8:46 PM CST reply actions
my take
haley will get 3 years scott 5-or 6
okay i have cereal palsy arhrtis and chronic fatiue as well i have a grea life loveing folks some days are better that other days i got a make a wish in 2001 saw my favorive team the broncos was the trip of the lifetime i wish everyone couild gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that ok but i bleed organ and bule
Franchise Baby
You will rue the Chiefs, Pioli, and Haley.
Many losses to come for the Broncos and much heartache, Come to Light J :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Hmmmm i duno...
I hope you are right…Maybe just 2 for Haley, though.
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
another bad thing is..
with a losing franchise over the past few years, it is hard to get top notch talent for the players, and respectable quality coaches. Nobody wants to go to the Raiders, unless they have issues and need a job. Rookies dont know how to win in this league, its not college where you can score 45 points with ease. It will be awhile unless the right move is made. Hopefully Pioli is gonna pick us right.
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